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235,000 Software Engineers Can't Be Wrong, Right?
jgeelan writes "The Boston Globe has carried a report on how 235,000 engineers and computer scientistsl are calling on Congress to study the impact of the country's H1-B visa program, the recession, and the outsourcing of jobs overseas on the unemployment rate of engineers and other information technology professionals.
It's an issue that's bubbling on discussion sites all over America too, though in one case developers (Java developers in this instance) seem completely unable to agree on whether H1-B is really a contributing factor or not."
Feed your own?
Or deny another the opportunity to better their life by a huge order of magnitude?
They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty nor security
So now that the economy sucks, and we have terrorism to cover our tracks, we're going to make a huge petition to throw a bunch of foreigners out of the country?
Mask it any way you want, but racism sucks.
Clearly time to trot out Dr Matloff again
http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/itaa.html
there is no `tech boom', never was (not since 70s at least); it's a ploy to generate cheap labour, the H1-1 campaigns part of that
235,000 software engineers got together and slashdot didn't cover it? Who dropped the fucking ball here?!
IEEE-USA? Well bully for them! Did all 235,000 members send in their support or did a majority vote on this or did the publicity arm send this out on behalf of those people who are members?
[o]_O
Why don't we just make sure the competent folks get/keep their jobs instead of worrying about someone's country of origin? Heaven knows there are enough incompentent American programmers who are still employed....
What is your Slash Rating?
The dont get mad when we stop importing your coca-cola, cars, electronics and other shit. Lets your economy collape. You wanted globalisation you got it.
US-UK-Israel: The real Axis of Evil
How many are those are MCSE and Frontpage-weenies? To be honest, there are too many people who think they're competent but in reality don't know a lot about CS, heck I knew a guy who thinks you need a CS degree to code out websites, and he insists on using Adobe GoLive to do it.
And that doesn't apply to just the people from US, a lot of people I see just take CS and check out O'Reilly books to learn about the latest buzzword - HTML, PHP, Perl, Apache.
Yes, this comment is not insightful, it's just a troll.. mod away!!
Managers in America expect strict obedience and low pay rate, something alot of Americans aren't willing to give because its not in our culture.
Corporations import foreign labor and pay nothing for it, and the foreigner works just so he can be in America.
The pay rate for actual Americans can be lowered as a result, a pay rate so low that you can barely afford a refuge tent of your own. While the stockholders make millions.
God spoke to me
I've perused the listings at monster and dice and most seem to be head hunters looking for somebody that is proficient in everything from ADA to VB or somebody with 3+ years of professional .NET experience or 10 years of Java. Could the problem be that the people doing the hiring don't even know what they want so they let positions go unfilled?
I just read an article in last months Scientific American decrying the falling rate that unversities are turning out scientists and engineers. The falloff over the next ten years will leave a tremendous shortfall in the US as compared to Europe or Asia. It looks like the IEEE-USA is trying to leverage it's membership for economic and/or political gain.
The article mentions tighter limits on the number of H1-B visas granted to foreign nationals. Current H1-B holders won't be "thrown out" at all.
Finaly this issue is being talked about. I have been out of work for over a year because I cannot find a single job. In part this problem has been caused by H1B's taking the jobs that I am going for, no this is not speculation, I have witnessed it several times. Maybe in time I will have better luck, but first this problem needs to be taken care of.
Help Brendan pay off his student loans
(from the java link in the posting):
"I have a job," states Lyons, "and have not changed jobs in the past 5 years. I'm a Sun Certified Programmer for the Java 2 Platform. I'm working for a very large development shop, have over 10 years coding experience, 5 years in Java/OO technologies, and yes I do know what an anonymous class is and when one would use it as opposed to in interface." [emphasis added]
Um... I think he's confusing anonymous and abstract classes, illustrating Avraamides' point quite well.
Last week's paper version of EETimes had an article about the fact that 60% of EE/CompE/CS undergrads in the US today either flunk out or quit, which is a large reason that many companies are "outsourcing" to engineers coming from different countries these days. This is obviously a Catch-22 type situation, because within a university, the engineering college gets less of the yearly budget/alumni funds due to less engineering graduates, which possibly could have the effect of causing prospective college students to not want to attend that engineering college.
Sheesh! Any economist will tell you that frictional unemployment is 6%! What that means is if you have 100 workers and 100 jobs, at any given moment 6 of them will be unemployed (going to school, bumming around Europe, dropping a kid, "finding themselves", or just jerking off). Anything less than 6% indicates a shortage of workers!
You're using her as bait, Master!
I remember when this first issue came
out and Clinton was saying that the US
had to protect the IT workers.
This was clearly a subtle shakedown of the
high tech capital, which donated big-time,
and Clinton signed on.
The major asset of a politician is the friends
he can betray; Then they call him a statesman.
... is not the competition, you have to just deal with that. The problem is for the HB1 workers... it's practically indentured servitude. It's difficult to leave the company you are supposed to work for. The company gains a level of control over the persons personal life that is anathema to the basic freedoms modern workers should expect.
-pyrrho
McManes said IEEE-USA wants companies to rely on foreign nationals only when they cannot find qualified US citizens to fill jobs.
If the workers want that, they can join unions, or some other form of collective bargaining. But the IT industry doesn't seem interested in such a method. How many techie unions do you know? As such, I'd say that techies are sad to be out of jobs, but not in the mind to force others to hire them.
I realize this is a group. But until I see techie unions, I won't be convinced that this is what they really want.
Have you read my journal today?
America depends on great software like Linux that is made in almost entirely foregn countrys (like Finland and the UK). American countrys like Micro$hit and Adobe make crappy software that doesnt compare to the like of Corel or Linux or GNOME, and their evil corporations to boot! I know I would rather use foregn software that I had the open source code to than any Micro$uck crap. Open source is the perfect cure against terrorism because igf a terrorist puts virii in your software then you can read the software and fix it urself! I dont see you being able to do that with Wind0ze LOL! America sucks and is the home of the DMCA and other legislation that takes away my rites. As long as the evil corporations control america the only innovations will be outside of the US.
Friends don't let friends use Wind0ze!!
Yeah. It actually IS possible for 235,000 people to be wrong at the same time. I mean...sure...you'd think that if there are 235,000 simliar opinions there must be some kernel of truth underlying the position. That's a false assumption. If you unemployed programmers actually understood why 235,000 opinions are not logically sufficient to declare a proposition true, maybe you wouldn't be unemployed right now?
Ha ha!
Were these people more qualified what are your qualifications? Most Indians I know have at least a bachelors in EE or CS, if not degrees in both or Masters degrees. The average american computer type is lucky to have a bachelors. I hate to say this, but maybe your racists attitudes impede your finding employement.
their inability to find work even when they hold advanced degrees and are skilled in Java or C++, the programming languages most in demand.
What about those foreigners who hold advanced degrees and are skilled in Java or C++ and can't get work because their own countries are poor and lack industry and they arn't allowed to work in the US? They have just as much right to work as anyone else and they and the companies who hire them shouldn't be punished by protectionist policies. This is the same mentality that lead to exorbiant tariffs on BC lumber (causing massive unemployment and immense damage to BC's economy). Protectionism just doesn't work and all the US will do is harm an already hurting tech industry.
I stole this Sig
These 4.8-5.3% of people aren't bumming around Europe, finding themselves, etc. They're applying for jobs left and right, and getting none. This is a real problem, because you have a hungry 5% instead of a lazy 5%.
Just look at the IT job situation and tell me it's not bad.
Cretin - a powerful and flexible CD reencoder
The other thing to remeber is that proportionally just as many H1Bs have lost thier jobs, and they're in worse positions than the locals... In a lot of cases after they are let go, they have 10 days to leave the country.
--locust
Allowing a reasonable number of well trained foreigners into the US is a very smart idea. Just think about how much it costs the US government to educate a single citizen. People are a cost on society until they are at least 18. Via H1B programs you can get people that another country has paid for to come and contribute.
Foreigners have made considerable contributions to technology in the US. The Manhattan project team had large numbers of refugees in it. Important parts of the team that put man on the moon came from the German rocket program. Andy Grove and a number of other high tech pioneers came from outside the US. Bringing in foreigners is smart.
It probably does make some impact on salaries in the short term, but the benefit is that by getting bright people into the US it helps keep the US as the world's leading developer of technology. So I'd argue that the overall effect is positive on salaries. There are, of course, abuses, as there is in any scheme, but overall the program is a good idea.
It is interesting to note that a number of European countries, Germany especially, have picked up on the idea that H1B like visas are a good idea. I'm totally annoyed that my home country is notoriously difficult for educated people to emigrate to. Personally, it's one of the US's great strengths and more countries should behave in this way.
Finally, the US government even makes a profit on H1B processing. To get an H1B processed costs $1125. I've heard that the average processing time is in the order of fractions of an hour.
American's need to remember that immigration is part of this country - in many ways - immigration is this country. The only people that suffer are those that can't compete - welcome to capitalism.
management has no interest in paying a respectible wage. they are interested in pay someone the lowest wage they can.
they dont care about you, they dont care about your family. they care about their own pocket. thats it.
the H1-B's are cheaper than you are. thats it. nothing about american spirit - they are taking food off of your table.
we need to band together. we've needed it for a while.
union. now.
... hi bingo
If companies can't get the inexpensive workers to come to them, then they will go the inexpensive workers. Basically, such companies will just open facilities in a foreign country full of relatively inexpensive labor.
- Cause they agree to work for less pay.
Why don't you agree to work for less pay ?? ... huh ?
-
There is a difference between not being able to find a job and not being able to find a job that pays more that it should.
P.S. Don't start with the qualification crap. I run a consulting firm that outsources development to Russia. No difference in skill level. There are good and bad programmers in every country.
Once again I marvel at how the US stands for the ideals of fairness, justice and opportunity for all except when it comes to foreign countries or people from foreign countries.
This applies to everything from the issuing (or not issuing) of H1-Bs to the treatment of prisoners from Afghanistan to domestic trade subsidies and tariffs on foreign goods.
So much for the triumph of Democracy and Capitalism - maybe the old communists are having a good laugh at the US right about now?
RTFM; please, I beg you.
You either bring Adit over here on an H1B, or send the software to India to be written by his company in Bangalore.
Either way, it's supply and demand, chumpolas - the service economy runs on Mexicans and other south american immigrants, mostly illegal.
Why would software be any different?
It's a global market, folks - if you want to keep your jobs and their 80K salaries, you've got to be better at something than your international competition, just like a steel manufacturer or anybody else who competes in the global economy.
Hexayurt - open source refugee shelter,
So, who's being the racist here?
You paint these displaced american workers as the racists, but that's not accurate (in most cases). I do think that there's racism here, but it's on the part of large corporations who exploit foreign labor because they can get away with paying ridiculously low wages.
When I was a subcontractor for IBM, I worked on the same floor as IBM India. IBM sponsored provided H1B sponsorship so that the IBM India developers could work in the US. I was shocked to learn that while I was being billed out at $100/hour, my equally-trained, equally-capable counterparts were being billed out at $20/hour. Keep in mind that we were all taking home a *fraction* of what we were billed out for (I was getting around $25/hour, I shudder to think of what IBM India contractors were making). Sure, you could quit, but then you've lost your H1B visa and are deported. In essence, it was endentured servitude.
It all comes down to supply & demand. US Corporations are increasing the supply of IT professionals in order to drive down the wage they can commmand. However, they are doing this through questionable (if not downright unethical) means. You end up with one group of exploited developers, and another group of displaced developers.
there are good reasons why people are not hiring: maybe the ECONOMY IS DOWN?
i mean -- let's think about this for a bit. the economy wasn't nearly recovered (companies have no money) and now the scandals from worldcom / enron (means all the execs are right now tighter than amish when comes to spending for capital equip and human resources) -- and you wonder why people are not hiring?
unless i missed something -- the unemployment rates does not track the difference between unemployed citizens and non-citizens -- i know plenty of former H1B people who are out of a job right now. moreover -- non-citizens who are out of a job for a long time leaves the country -- so i would not trust the statistics *anyway*.
lastly... I know this will draw flames from hell -- but have anyone considered that maybe H1B holders actually got better grades in school? There are so many people who think that college is just a place to have fun, drink beer, blah blah, and 2.5 is an acceptable GPA. well -- for most forigner students, unless you get 3.0 / 3.5, your scholarship gets cut and you can't pay for your schooling cuz you have no work permit. so it is quite often that forign students gets better grades than domestic students because they have no choice. if you were an employer, say both are "qualified" but one has a 1/2 point GPA advantage in core curriculum, who are you goint to choose?
this is a classic "i want to blame all my problems on other people" syndrom. quite discusting stuff. even more so that IEEE is supporting this sh*t.
My life in the land of the rising sun.
In short, legally and logically, it would be a very rare case where a local worker would lose his job to a H1 worker. H1 workers are hired only if the companies involved are not able to find qualified local candidates.
The job shortages in today's market is due to the prevailing bad economic climate. Let us not try to find scapegoats.
All your favorite sites in one place!
McManes said IEEE-USA wants companies to rely on foreign nationals only when they cannot find qualified US citizens to fill jobs.
But wait! Isn't that already the law for H1B right now? My own H1B application went to great lengths to explain to the Dept of Labor that I was going to fulfill a jobposition that my company could not find an American worker for. Hence, I'm not grabbing anyone else's job.
The article already states that the number of H1B visas is down to something like 60k already, because companies can fill all job positions with US workers.
If this results in difficulties for extending my legitimite H1B next year, I'll be pissed. Let me prepare my cancellation of my IEEE membership...
<grub> Reading
we own this country, it is ours, and all the benefits of ownership/citizenship should go to us citizens, and not foreigners.
cryonics: gateway to the future? www.cryonet.org
The large companies are apparently lobbying governments again about the shortage of skills, and how employing from overseas is the only way to make up the shortfall, whilst statistics show that ~45% of IT consultants, people in the industry etc are currently unemployed.
:)
Ironically, careers advisers are suggesting that we look abroad for work!!
The problem with slashdot is that most of its users were bullied and stuffed into lockers as kids!
Isn't it funny to note that America, which believes in Human rights, is having most of it's products assembled outside of this country in sweatshops.
So, we can't exploit Americans... That would be bad publicity. But hey, exploit a few thousands Chinese and nobody gives a damn.
I think Bad Religion sums it up nicely in their song American Jesus:
"I feel sorry for the earth's population. Cause so few live in the U-S-A. Precious few can garner the prosperity. They can visit but they cannot stay. We've got the American Jesus."
I'm having to bite my tounge a lot here. I can only put it like this:
Companies hire cheap immigrant workers because, well, they're cheap and they often get the job done (but not very well).
I don't think this is a problem at all. Americans who have a problem with this need to re-tool. Obviously, these foreigners are better at laboring away destroying their wrists and vision while us Americans are better at things like golf and basketball.
It's been my experience that Americans churn out better code than these foreigners. Anyone who has contracted out work to India, China or Russia should know this as well.
I think the answer is quite clear. Americans should oversee these aliens in managment positions. We can spend our time doing what we do best (golf, basketball, interesting projects) and they can slave away at our will making pennies. They actually want to do this, can you believe that? How is this wrong?
Some sacrifices may have to be made, you may need to learn a foreign language or two. You must somehow tell these things what to do right?
As an H1B i agree. *please* stop the H1B program, reduce its numbers or do something to end it. ive been on an H1B visa last year (before leaving the US of A for another country). it was probably the worst experience ive had. managers tend to force H1Bs to work 60-80hrs/wk without paying overtime (illegal by H1B rules) with the dangling sword of deportation over the H1Bs head. protesting simply gets you deported. losing the job gets you deported. not staying for six years get you deported. its probably the worst experience ive had and would *not* recommend it to others. yes i know ppl want to get into the states by any means but for gods sake -- dont do it!
This is not rascism. The point is to hire non-citizens who will work for less. They work for less because they are on H1-B's and will be deported if they are out of work for more than 14 days or so. They are almost hostages
These policies are also very harmful to third world countries because the US sucks their high-tech talent out. This problem exists in other areas. South Africa actually has a big problem with the US taking its nurses. (They have a big AIDS problem.)
At this point the US is importing nurses, teachers, and hi-tech workers and probably others because it does not spend enough on education. H1-B's are a bandage not a cure. The U.S. will be in major trouble if it is not self-sufficent in production of skilled workers.
In summary, this problem and "the global economy" in general is not a problem of one country vs. another; it is a problem of the super-rich vs. everyone else. And guess who's winning!!!!
P.S. Why do I have so much time to write this post? Because I don't have a job!!!!
P.P.S. Iam not a racist. In school, I have made friends with many Indians and other Asians and I wish them the best.
Democracy Now! - your daily, uncensored, corporate-free
The reality is, two years ago, you couldn't get enough US workers at even remotely sensible salaries, so H1Bs became a way to make US businesses viable in a global market. Now the recession's hit and companies can find US employees, the number of H1Bs are down 75% (160k-40k from the article). Those figures alone indicate that while there are some abuses (there will be in any system), by and large, H1Bs have worked as intended - to provide extra labour when labour is short.
The main problem with the IT industry is that a million and one idiots joined the industry on the promise of massive salaries. They didn't care about what they were doing, put relatively little effort in to getting more than the basic skills and just came for the money.
Once the economy tanked and layoffs started, some of them remained, filling the positions the "good" engineers should be taking. End result, a lot of "good" engineers can't find work because a lot of "bad" ones are still in the remaining jobs. This is settling out over time, but it's still an issue.
The same happens in whatever the boom industry is right before a recession. Look what happened to accountants and stock brokers at the end of the 80s. In time, it rights itself as the gold diggers leave in search of the next boom and the "good" people filter back in to the roles.
So, perhaps rather than go for the ultranationalistic, easy knee-jerk of "damn them immigrants!", which, granted, most societies tend to do during hard times, maybe looking closer to home makes more sense.
We still have MicroSkills and Laptop Training Solutions advertising all over the radio here (CA) about how IT is a growth industry and if you just do a six month course, you're entitled to a $60k job at the end of it. I'd imagine they're dumping vastly more than 20,000 extra workers in to an industry that they shouldn't be in.
And going back to the whole industries people shouldn't be in... It's been said by almost every expert on the dot.com economy that the recession was the best thing that could have happened as it's driving out those who shouldn't be in it. Yes, it's painful while those of us who should be in it wait for them to go and can't find work ourselves. Ultimately, though, the lean period's strengthening the industry, not harming it.
And, yes, I have been through it. Ten months out of work with a near dream resume behind me. Yet even after that, I still stand by the fact that the problems we're facing are a good thing. We were a bloated industry that needed to be forced to justify its existence. Blaming those sneaky foreigners really doesn't help things.
One final thought: Which would you prefer, "Half my office are foreigners on H1Bs rather than Americans" or "My office shut down and moved to India because we couldn't compete without a few H1Bs"?
I work in a situation where this has had a negative affect. I would for a fortune 5 company who has made it corporate policy to hire 100% of its contractors from H1B contracting companies and to terminate all American contractors. I have personally seen over 100 American contractors fired because "they weren't the correct race".
sorry, but back in 2000-2001 i was living large. jobs were everywhere and if you had any credentials at all, companies would fight about who got to give you $70k/yr to do 1.5hrs of work a day. this was a tech boom.
then money ran out, few of the companies survived, and the boom collapsed.
or, if you're speaking about a technological boom, you're even more incorrect. the internet is one of the most significant developments in human communication's history.
either way, i think i disagree.
Cretin - a powerful and flexible CD reencoder
Nice to know those Java folks put their money where their mouth is
This type of activity is pretty clueless. Two years ago the US was screaming out for every engineer it go lay its hands on.
Pandering to populist pressure might sound good tactics to politicians but it is a pretty short term gain. The intended beneficiaries are not going to thank you for it and the naturalized citizens are going to hate you for it.
Making it harder to hire non-US workers will simply force US companies to be even more aggressive in outsourcing programing overseas. The IEEE group was also complaining about that but guess what? There is absolutely nothing Congress can do to stop it, unless they want to start a huge trade war.
Looking for an Information Security student project suggestion?
Try http://dotcrimeManifesto.com/
My point is that it isn't as simple as saying "If we kick out all the foreigners we will all have jobs again". That is a racist attitude. I am fortunate to come from a country with a similar - if not better standard of living to the US, however those that are advocating "kicking out" H1B workers should remember that they were invited here, and in many cases they will be forced to return to countries with extremely poor standards of living.
I am really saddened by the response to this story here, I honestly thought that the geek community was above this kind of bigotry.
and let me tell you I am certainly not cheaper than others. I worked at a startup and, of course, this one went belly up. It took me less than 1 week(!) at the beginning of this year(!!), when times were the worst, to find a new job. I work at one of the largest Software Companies in the country and believe me, nobody gave a shit how much my salary is, they were just interested in my qualification. And the market is tough. Maybe it has something to do with the fact that I am pretty much known in my field (crypto & security), wrote papers and a book, worked for 10+ years in the industry and have a MS/CS from Germany. Without trying to sound arrogant, could it be that I was just more qualified than other candidates!? Does it occur to the people voting for this bill that there might be good education in other countries, too? Does it occur to them that me being here benefits the US? Just my $.02 ...
Didn't I see something about there being 300,000 freesoftware developers world wide?
Hmmm, must be the Software Crisis still at work....
I cannot find a single job. In part this problem has been caused by H1B's taking the jobs that I am going for
This is absolute nonsense, of course. I came to the US with an H1B about three years ago, my company spent tens of thousands of dollars just to bring me here (moving from one continent to another isn't cheap, neither are the legal costs). And no, it wasn't because I would have accepted a smaller salary figure, I'm making excellent money right now.
Since my coming here, I have been interviewing lots and lots of potential co-workers and the overall picture is oh so sad. 90% of the guys who describe themselves as kick-ass coders can't properly solve the simplest problems that involve just a little bit of thinking. The situation is so bad that it makes me cry. I don't care where you come from, I don't care if your skin is green and you piss in the corner of my office but if you're smart and can solve problems, you're hired. This has always been the case here.
So please excuse me but I strongly suspect that the problem isn't with H1Bs but rather with over-inflated egos of some guys who then blame other people for their misfortunes.
Btw, the company I work for is hiring right now. You're very welcome to come here and try to get my job, I would be really happy to have some extra help. But if you can't get over the bar then sorry, I prefer having no people to bad people.
When men used to be men
One of the problems with the H1B program is that the participants are essentially indentured servants--they do not enjoy the same job mobility freedoms of full citizens. This makes it easy to exploit them, whether for lower wages, increased hours, mowing the boss' lawn, etc. An insidious side effect of this is to hold back compensation for all tech workers.
So, I propose that H1B visa holders should have the right to change jobs at will, without losing their visa or resetting the clock on a permanent resident application. Maybe cap the number of at-will transfers at 3, but GIVE THEM SOME MOBILITY. If an employer is at risk of losing their H1B personnel, they will be forced to compensate them at the same level they do citizens. Then, any competition between citizens and H1B holders for jobs is on merit, rather than the structural ability to screw the H1B holder.
Remain calm! All is well!
As a British engineer currently working in the Bay Area for a semiconductor company, and who used to work in UK for a well known blue chip UK general engineering company - some points:
1. We're currently desperate (as are our competition) to hire high end people with a relatively narrow range of skills - for example IC regulator design, or system experts for technical product definition. Can't find 'em. Most resumes from designers show inexperience, or the wrong experience. People applying for the second example show 'marketing' knowldge but shallow technical expertise and practically zero real system experience. We can't afford to mentor very many juniors, and the few US universities that churn, say, IC designeers, don't churn out enough. The designer graduates from India and China I've seen at work have been very competent and professional.
2. In UK, when the big companies were laying off 15 years ago, the engineers from (say) British Aerospace or Smiths couldn't get hired anywhere. Their experience was a narrow spike out of tune with the other electronic industry requirements.
3. Ageism rules. Most recruiters think that old staff (= over 35) are slow, and don't have the 'latest skills', whatever they are. The real reason is probably that younger=cheaper and easier to bully.
4. Yeah, I'm paid 15% less than I could get if I farmed my resume around. But that holds for as long as it takes to get residency (if desperate to move - I'm not), and it averages out in the end.
5. US should consider itself lucky that the top engineers want to come to the US, to the detriment of competing high tech zones like Taiwan and Bangalore. Would this attitude also apply to other industries - d'ya not want the best surgeons to work here too?
It couldn't be because of the cult-like status of universities and that pumping out 100s of thousands of "engineers" when fewer are all that's needed???
Welcome to a free market, kiddies!
Ameeeeeeeeriikkkka, AmmmeeeeeerrikkkAAAAA!!!!!
One of the reasons I left IEEE years ago was because I found their union-like activities so distasteful. Its USAB has been spouting this anti-foreigner line for a very long time.
I have to disagree with those of you who believe that the US Government's H1B Visa policy creates an artificial lack of jobs for American citizens. On the contrary, if you take a broader look at the tech labor pool, the only artificial situation is an overabundance of jobs (or inflation of wages) for US citizens due to the *restrictions* imposed by the Visa process.
We can't be good little libertarians one day and protectionists the next. In India and China there is a huge and rapidly growing pool of at least marginally qualified technical workers. It is simply inevitable that Americans such as us will come into competition with those people for the limited pool of technical positions globally. It's a simple macroeconmic principle that as the pool of labor grows, the prevalent wage drops. A scale back of the H1B program will only temporarily maintain the *existing* imbalance that favors us in America.
As painful as it is (of course I have a job so maybe I have no place to talk about pain) we as tech workers have to face the facts that 1) We work in a global industry 2) Our salaries are artificially inflated for us by national borders. The diffusion of workers to the U.S. is just a matter of time, and until we just admit this and liberalize employment of overseas labor, the whole industry in the US will be hurt by paying out excessive wages.
Rather than trying to lock out our tech brothers and sisters in India and China, we should be focusing on making sure that we are the best available labor pool for the job, regardless of national origin.
You may now flame me into obliviion.
-konstant
Yes! We are all individuals! I'm not!
Nothing in the article says we are actually going to throw people out. I know working in the US on an H1B is always stressfull and makes it hard to make long term plans, and I can see that people become a little tense when they make announcements like these. Once again this is only a letter, no bill has passed, no actual measurements have been taken. I do disagree with a couple of posts out there mentioning that people don't integrate. I know here in Silicon Valley alone are quite a bit of H1B's and most of these people live lives just as US people would. They take part in community events, organise stuff, help out where they can. Watch out, after all we are all immigrants in this country :)
If anything, US engineers having to "fight" for jobs is a "good thing". If US citizens get competition, they are going to feel obligated to raise their skills in order to get an IT job. As a software user, this finally translates into better products.
For one, kicking out people working here on visas is an ignorant, knee-jerk reaction from people who are stressed out over the current economic downturn. I wouldn't go as far as to call it racism. But it could definitely slide into that territory were it to persist. Two of the sharpest people on my team are working here on visas trying to get their citizenship. They're deserving and brilliant people who I would be much prouder to have as a fellow citizen and neighbor than the drug dealing freeloader that currently lives next door to me.
;). Investing in your skills is just like anything else. Ya can't put all your eggs in one basket. Even in these nasty times, the people I know with a diverse skillset are not having trouble finding jobs.
Secondly, what's up with all of these java developers that supposedly are out of work? I can't speak for other markets, but here there are about 10 J2EE jobs for every VB or MFC job. And even if it weren't that way, how smart is it to put your career into the hands of one programming language (even if it is one of the two best languages ever created... C++ being the best of course
Finding a job with a company that isn't about to fold or lay off 10,000 employees, now that's another issue...
There's always the other side of the story...
<grub> Reading
Move on. There's nothing to see here.
If ya want that chair back, pad're you first gotta hang a few business brownshirts, figuratively ... of course ... 3/4/5 --- the unions did that in the 20s/30s/40s/50s by busting up people/places/things --- and then see how your workseat automagically reappears.
First, the math:
If somebody wrote an article asserting that 235,000 members of the National Council of Teachers of English had sent a letter to Congress I'd have just let it pass. You can depend upon English teachers to never split an infinitive, but numbers sometimes escape them. Engineers, on the other hand, have no excuse: this was not 235,000 EE's, it was the US trade association to which they belong.
Second, the subject is moot
Despite the fact that Congress authorized up to 160,000 H-1B visas per year, the Globe article points out that only 40,000 were used last year, and only half of those were for IT jobs. Look at the job sites: again, and again, and again you will see "We will|do|can not sponsor H-1B applicants." Petitioning Congress to limit the number of H-1B visas when they're not being used is kind of beside the point.
Third, they're whining
C'mon--unemployment of 5.7%? That's hardly a catastrophe--and the numbers are deeply suspect. First, not every EE is a programmer (or works in IT). Second, not every programmer is an EE--and in point of fact a lot of EEs have little business attempting to program. Much like Computer Science curricula, EE programs focused on IT tend to focus on skills that aren't in demand--and ignore skills that are important to a lot of commercial programming. Databases don't fall within the purview of a EE program--but database programming is a big part of the IT job market. If a company brings in somebody from the Indian subcontinent on an H-1B visa to write stored procedures on Oracle, does an EE lose a job? Post hoc ergo propter hoc (logical fallacy of false cause).
Fourth, what solution do they propose?
Bleating to Congress is a lovely thing for the association's executives to do, in order to demonstrate to their members that the execs deserve to be paid. But what exactly do they propose? That we track down all of these people on H-1B visas and ship them home? With their husbands or wives, with their children? Even if those children, born in the U.S.A., are U.S. citizens?
A Word from the English Teachers:
Stand up, clear your throat, and recite with me:
jobs were everywhere and if you had any credentials at all, companies would fight about who got to give you $70k/yr to do 1.5hrs of work a day.
Wow, just think how much easier it would have been for them to just make everybody work a full day! Was this a tech boom, or just a waste-time-and-money boom?
Under capitalism man exploits man. Under communism it's the other way around.
Please don't construe this as xenophobic or racist, but there is a general perception, at least at companies like Oracle and Sun, that H1-B visas are prefered over citizens. Naturally this is illegal, but I and many others have seen it in practice. The reason, besides the fact that americans are generally lazier than people coming over with H1-Bs, is that H1-B rules give the company more power. I know of one company that regularly lays off 5% of their workforce, and 80% of their workforce is H1-B. Being laid off is a much bigger problem for the H1-B contingent because they will likely have to pack up and go home. The 5% layoff policy causes these people to work like dogs, seriously never taking even a weekend day off. I'm not kidding here. I know people who haven't had a saturday off in two years, all because they're scared of being in the bottom 5% and being shipped home. This is sick and wrong and bad for society. Companies are taking advantage of H1-B workers, it's not the H1-B workers that are the problem.
Its even harder out there right now for some of us that just graduated. With a not so hot economy and a surplus of workers HR departments seem to not even consider most of new grads unless we have a stellar gpa. I've even had experience, and that doesn't seem to matter. H1-B isn't all to blame for the current situation, but it may have had a part of it.
It is all those powerful lobbies--gun, tobacco, oil, banking, defence, etc.--and s/elected politicians, greedy execs and uninformed citizens that are bringing this great nation to its knees, not the H1B workers. How many Enrons, Worldcoms, Global Crossings, etc. do we need to make us accept the root cause of problems faced by USA instead of pointing fingers at others?
More likely, US workers are going to have to broaden their skills to include ones other than coding. There is more to being a programmer than just the coding, you know.
Breakfast served all day!
I know Sun Microsystems pays its H1-B employees like it pays its American employees, or at least a hell of a lot closer then what IBM appears to. Some companies aren't ethical. A friend of mine from India worked for Siemans India, got paid something like 5-6 thousand a year (that is 5,000-6,000, which is good money in India) but they would ship him to Europe to deisgn cell stations, they paid his housing and food, but still paid him his India wage. So he came to work for Sun, makes like 80,000 now, which isn't quite what I think the guy is worth, but it is a damn site better then what Siemans paid him and pretty close to what the US wage is.
Having just coming from Australia to Canada, I found the job market was hard. I have found a job. I have just 10 minutes ago come out from interviewing for a new IT person.
There is difficulty in finding people skilled at what they say. In a hard market, there are people who throw everything on their resume to get through the door, and immeadiately have problems in an interviewed when asked questions relating to technologies that they are skilled.
Another observation, in a market with lots of people, networking is the easiest way to get a job. Job boards, newsgroups et al, are the last place to get a position. Finding the balance between bugging friends and keeping friends is the key.
Most employers will be considering the market as 'We can look through the market for the rough cut diamond', and end up waiting a lot longer then when they felt that they had to snap people up.
Finally, as always, the vocalists are the majority. The employed people won't make noise, but the unemployed will make a lot of noise. (I bet there will be people looking for jobs who respond to this in a higher ratio than those who have jobs - Flame away :)
Flame me away
If you check the stats on unemployment, say here http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.nr0.htm then you will see we have been right around 6% and in april actually hit that mark.
Very true indeed. The best way for Americans to compete is on quality and professionalism. We can charge higher prices (i.e. salaries and benefits) if we provide better quality and professionalism on the job. Having the government come in and protect us from foreign competition will force U.S. companies to either relocate offshore or at least significantly reduce their U.S. workforce.
In regards to H1B and immigration law, the government should not create laws that put foreigners at a legal disadvantage. If foreigners have the same rights as U.S. citizens they will demand adequate salaries and benefits. Weakening immigration law would be better for U.S. engineers. That way companies could not say to immigrants "Hey, since you are a foreigner, you are going to accept a lower salary, fewer benefits, and respect or I am going to call INS and have you kicked out of the country." When foreigners cannot be kicked out of the country so easily, they can demand better.
Just think about it, before you start blaming those "damn foreigners".
Stuart Eichert
True, but the cost of living of other countries are much much MUCH lower than in America. If a member of a family living in Pakistan worked in America, making American wages, and occasionally sending money back to the family still living in Pakistan, the family could live extremely well. So we should still limit the amount of people from outside that can work in America to feed their families overseas because otherwise we'll have problems feeding our own families here in the USA!
It's a global market, folks - if you want to keep your jobs and their 80K salaries,
You need to maintain profit margins, which means a higher top line overall. When nobody can afford your product because they are all making $20K a year, paying $10K in taxes and $11K in rent, then what?
OOPS.
Someone earlier said something about basic economics. Well, that's about as basic as it gets. A company MUST PAY their employees enough to afford to buy their product or THEY WILL GO OUT OF BUSINESS. PERIOD. It's like gravity, fellas. Can't get around it no matter how many accountants and lawyers you hire.
Everyone is missing the point. H1-B's are here for reasons beyond "needing more tech labor". Thats a bunch of hooey. They're here cause they'll work for 1/16 the hourly wage as an American will work -- I won't go into quality of work, language etc. etc. Thats a different argument.
The point is that people that are here on an H1-B will work for peanuts. People that live here can't afford to work for peanuts. Case-and-point:
During the down turn last year, many companies opted to layoff employees and kept H1-B's (this is actually legal if its done right). Why?
Because they work for practically nothing and save companies a boat load of salary! These folks don't have the same standard of living as a "typical" american owning 2 cars and a big fat mortgage with a PS2, X-Box and several hundred DVD's... H1-B folks are here clearly because they know they can do the work and make a lot more doing the work HERE. Plain and simple.
Its not racism, its corporate greed and American "fat cat" mentality thats caused this.
We (American's) demand cheap goods (food, gas, computers etc.). We all bark and scream when the price of gas reaches $1.90, or the price of PC memory rises. We demand lower prices, therefore companies need to accomodate.
Its actually fairly simple:
To keep the standard of living, and have these low prices, companies can't afford to pay software engineers $100,000 a year and expect to turn a profit selling software for $90.00 a pop. Think about it. If you've got 12 engineers making over $80K, how many units do you need to sell to recoup that cost??? And thats just an engineers salary.
This is the stuff that company's are battling.
This is why we have 650,000 H1-B visa's here.
Also, I don't understand the "racism" thing. If someone is on a visa, they're "guests" of the country under the terms of what being a guest is all about. Regardless of what country they are from. If they have to be sent back for economic or political reason, HOW THE HELL is that racism?
I remember I got laid off from a company 5 years ago, when I looked around, I was the only Italian that got laid off -- should I call in the lawyers?
Its business. Stop bitching racism. Thats just dumb.
The problem with your scenario comes in when you are applying for a green card as well. I am currently in that situation. My current employer is the biggest lying stealing SOB that I have ever worked for, but I simply have to stick it out for the next 3 years to ensure I get my green card application through.
Sure, I could change employers - the law allows me to do that. Only problem is that I move back to the start of the queue again and wait another year or so. At this stage I cannot risk that as my H1 will run out before my GC is through. (And I started my application within 2 months of getting here!)
1) H1-B's are neither more skilled , nor less skilled, than homegrown engineers, taken as a whole.
2) Even if H1-B's were completed eliminated, then the work would simply be contracted out to cheaper overseas shops. This is already being ramped-up by the Fortune 500/1000/whatever companies.
3) The racism card is a specious argument. The issue is purely economics.
4) This "problem" is only the blow-back from the high-salary, perk-laden, prima donna dyas of the roaring 90's. (Obligatory Typo)
Ergo, either shut up or start organizing a union/guild/whatever to neg. with employers and to have some clout in Washington.
You cannot be pro freedom and oppose the employment of those from other countries. Its all about freedom of association. If I want to buy the programming services of someone from another country, why should I be stopped? I'm really being held hostage. At some point it begins to sound like organized crime where you are forced to use the "services" of one group "or else." As a free person, I should be able to deal economically with whomever I choose.
I think whats really happening here is that people have been so used to thinking that their talents are so special are now finding out that people all over the world are just as capable as they are.
Really, the difference in pay comes down to nothing more than being lucky enough to be born in the United States and speak English.
They'll try. But most companies don't have the maturity in specification and acceptance testing to allow in-house contracted services, let alone offshore. So they'll fail. Maybe then they'll hire local talent...
That is all.
USA needs good merchandise for low bux..
That's capitalism.
Are you against your own system?
BTW.. FINALLY.
I oppose H1Bs because they're less than you deserve.
You should just be able to come here and work. No deportations, no time limits, no bullshit.
Your company shouldn't be able to hold over you if you want something better when you're here. That should be your choice.
Of course, I'm a fan of totally open immigration as well...
What we call folk wisdom is often no more than a kind of expedient stupidity.-Edward Abbey
I too, have seen the jobs go to foreign nationals, H1B Visas, or get outsourced to places like India. I have installed software that was meant for work to leave Mexico and allow fewer and better paid Americans to handle the informaton flow; but have watched those same companies keep the work in the other country because it was cheaper to pay ten people pennies than two people minimum wage to handle it. I can understand; and completely support; individuals that want to make a start in the U.S. and thuse come in under these auspices - unfortunately they often stay in the country without ever becoming nationalized. They do themselves a disservice by remaining a foreign national; and the companies that hire them gladly maintain their visa status to keep from paying an equally skilled American professional.
I think with the interesting people, their lives can't possibly be wrapped up into a nice little package.
... If you're *qualified* and are expecting an exhorbitant salary relative to your experience. Speaking from experience, I've interviewed many candidates who claimed C/C++ and/or Java knowledge and have failed to answer basic questions about said languages.
Now is *not* the time to fudge experience on resumes, because employers are actually spending time to verify claimed skills.
The US has a huge supply of computer hobbyists, but very few programmers who are: Degreed in CS, are willing to learn and apply design principles (rather than hacking crappy, unmaintainable solutions), and/or are willing to develop in 4-5 year old, proven technologies rather than cutting-edge, buggy, but 'sexy' buzz-world filled technologies.
Based on my 10 years of experience as a consultant (and for the first time now working in-house), of all the other programmers I've worked with, 1 or 2% are skilled enough to be worthy of developing a new system. All others are okay at maintenance, but barely that.
Mask it any way you want, but racism sucks.
Agreed.
Not only that, but there are real, potent issues that IEEE and others should be fighting that are a hell of a lot more important than the job market (which will get worse, or better, regardless, depending on the economic cycle as a whole. H1B plays only a minor role in all this in any event), namely:
In short, stopping the attempt to "put the genie back in the bottle" by outlawing general computing in public hands, gutting the internet completely, and outlawing any efforts to resist or cry out against the same. This is almost precisely the same as what happened when the printing press was first invented, resulting in the initial creation of copyright law for the express purpose of censorship by the British Crown, which effectively banned private ownership of printing presses by anyone other than a cartel of "approved" publishers.
The IEEE is pathetic, and unworthy of even being considered representative of the tech community, much less donating funds to. They are out of touch and almost criminally negligent of the true issues that face technologists today.
Far better to join and support the lobbying group forming up under the unoffical name of "GeekPAC" (to be named something more professional RSN) and start fighting for what little freedom we have left, before even those shreds of it are gone.
The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
Before the Y2K problem, if you were a COBOL programmer you would be let go in favor of younger people who knew the newer languages (C++). Companies could let their older (higher paid) people go and hire younger (low pay) people with current skills.
Before that, you were let go if you didn't know COBOL or a higher level language, rather than staying with machine code. Again, this is the lowest corporate money.
It's just a money issue -- how can companies make the most cash at the least cost? It has nothing to do with peoeple with visas.
//TODO: Think of witty sig statement
...but I will take whatever I can get ;-)
And re sllort's comment: All y'all who oppose H1B, just remember how your ancestors got here. Nation of immigrants. Don't forget it.
sulli
RTFJ.
The people that I know who are senior Java developers are working on back-end code using J2EE.
There are no jobs for Java developers in the Denver area. Qwest pretty much took care of that.
I think that there are many H1-B programmers who are contributing to the current software crisis with low-quality work. However their employers who are too cheap to hire the right folks for the job must bear the brunt of the blame.
I'd like to point everyone over to a news.com article that was posted about H-1B's. This article is a good summary, but to really understand it you should actually read the regulations that are in place. The INS website is a good place to start.
Myths:
It seems that the article is more sour grapes than anything else. Don't get me wrong - I don't dislike the United States, but I feel it's a better place to go on vacation than to actually live. Especially with the post-9/11 restrictions on the freedoms that actually made the country attractive in the first place.
Oolite: Elite-like game. For Mac, Linux and Windows
I've had this discussion with co-workers before who represent both sides of the subject.
In my opinion I don't believe a H1B should get a job over an American citizen (READ: I'm not saying a H1B SHOULDN'T work in America, I just feel someone who is a citizen of this country should have priority)...and I believe that's the law as well.
The company I work for staff is roughly 25% contract positions, most of which are filled with H1Bs. Out of that, I would assume that at least 85% of the H1Bs work for a "contracting firm" that keeps them on payroll and places them in various companies. Some of these guys are making an insane amount of money for their placement company. So, in essence, they work for a company that they can easily work for under the H1B guidelines, but end up taking a citizens job when they are placed in the field. I feel that this is almost a loophole that allows H1Bs to get a job your normal citizen should get.
Unions are anathema to tech.
Bright spark, eh? You're confusing micro and macro economics.
Basically, if the world functioned as a single economic unit, there might be some truth in that. But it doesn't: restrictions on availability of goods (shipping), language, plus governments, get in the way.
In practice, though, all that happens is that the folks making $20K US in India look like millionaires.
Hexayurt - open source refugee shelter,
Maybe I don't hangout in the right circle of programming frieds but besides seeing an impossible number of years worth of experience in new technology, I see crazy mixes of skills. I see jobs where they want some Unix C/C++ guru and then they want the person to also have experience with Visual Basic. I don't know about anyone else but the people I've meet that were really good in Unix didn't have any interest in learning VB. Other jobs I see they a great deal of Win32 C++ development and also want the person to have experience with COBOL on mainframes. Again I've worked with a few good Windows developers but most of them were too young to ever had been around a and all their experience revolved around PCs.
Tony
I need someone with 14 years of HTML experience - OH - and hes gotta have 20 years of Java experience.
I work at IBM (posting AC) and I'm billed out at 230/hr and see about 1/4 of it only as well.
of course, i'm an american living overseas. less foreign workers living overseas means less work being done in america which means more taxes and income going into other countries besides america. like mine.
america was built on immigrants. einstein for instance. or linus torvald - on an h1-b visa. if america doesn't want them anymore then i'm sure they can work hard at building up other countries.
US Citizen living abroad? Register to vote!
The problem isn't that we, the technology industry, are actively seeking to fill jobs with people from other countries....Well, actually we are actively seeking people from other countries, but only because most American high school and college graduates can't tell the difference between geometry and calculus.
Science and mathematics are sorely lacking in this country's education system. We, as a nation, are more concerned with safe guarding "Under God" than making sure our children under the basic concepts of mathematics, biology, botany, chemistry, and physiology. We are more concerned with donating millions to erect a memorial for the 9/11 victims, but turn a deaf ear when our teachers and schools ask for money to buy books and supplies.
Sorry to say, but we should increase the visas; if only to ensure that our cable TV and Internet service won't be interrupted - that way we, as a nation, won't have to face the reality of our situation.
Err.... welcome to globalization: you either have to keep darkie out with barbed wire (look at our Southern border vs. our Northern one) or accept that we're one world now, and poor forigners are often just as bright and twice as hard working as the children of the Imperium.
Immigration is THE issue of the next millenium.
Hexayurt - open source refugee shelter,
If my boss thinks I've earned a bonus for a job well done do you think a union will allow it? If I consistently out perform the guy with seniority will I get the promotion?
Unions suck the life out of hard working individuals and reward mediocrity.
Great... let's kick out the intligent, hard-workiking, law-abiding H1B workers, and yet do NOTHING about the stupid, lazy and criminal types that we give 'asylum' or 'student visas' to.
Note: it wasen't H1B visa holders hijacking planes on the 11th, and I haven't seen a H1B holder at the food-bank or getting a welfare check.
What we need to allow, it the open selling of US citizenship rights by US citizens to anybody who wants it. Out H1B friends could buy the citizenship from a willing seller for cash - there whould be a bunch of crack-whores lined up to sell their citizenship for a few bucks.
We'd get rid of a pest, and gain a good citizen.
Moneyed corporations, non-working 'poor' and criminal prisoners are turning productive citizens into tax-slaves.
As the latest MPAA/RIAA bill shows, Congress knows nothing of morality, fair play, or even respect for the laws they themselves write.
So if 235,000 American IT workers can convince Congress to kick out all H1B visa holders, then more power to them!
Regardless of what this country *used* to be about, now it's about getting yours and to hell with anybody else. If H1B holders getting shipped out of America -- yes, even if they're carted off to their home countries to starve and die -- then so be it. If the visa holders can't afford to get together to buy enough Congresspeople to counteract the ones that the American programmers can threaten with their votes, then I guess the H1B holders just couldn't compete in the political arena.
It's not about right, or fairness, it's about power. In this case, can the power of American IT professionals' votes overcome the power of American IT companies money? That's what this is about, and nothing else.
It's a global market, folks - if you want to keep your jobs and their 80K salaries, you've got to be better at something than your international competition, just like a steel manufacturer or anybody else who competes in the global economy.
The problem is that you may have that special something that ought to set you apart from the other workers, but the HR departments won't take notice. They'll think, "okay, this guy says he can do X, but we'd have to pay him more. I'm sure this other guy from Ovbranistan can learn to do it just as well as he could, and we only have to pay him 66% of the normal wage.
HR is so narrow-minded these days that generally the things that make a good programmer aren't even factored into the decision process.
This article is what got me all riled up about not just the H1B situation, but industry hiring practices in general. It's worth a read.
Some digging through USENET newsgroups like alt.politics.economics and sci.econ reveals the ugly truth behind the current economic policies of the US and Republican "Supply Side Economics" in particular . The H1B issue is but one way how the repubs are screwing the american public... I've been especially following one Micheal L.Coburn which has this to say about H1Bs:
. php"
;-).
[following snipped from one of his posts]
"The H1B that is problematic is the H1B that comes here as an "employee" of a body shop -- that would be the majority of the high tech H1B's. These folks are here temporarily and can, in many instance avoid American taxes. One of the gimmicks used is to open an operation in India (for instance) and pay most of the salary in India. The money moves from here to there as Marketing, Recruiting, Training, and management fees. The H1B can then be paid about 30% less and still be drawing Comparative wages. The body shops get pretty rich on this deal off of a portion of the (would have been) tax money that finds its way into their pockets. The H1B, after spending a few months in the USA than returns to India where average income is about $300 a year and lives like a king until the calendar allows him to return for another load. India loses the services of this individual in the economy of India. The USA loses because the education required for these jobs will no longer be developed in the USA -- no reward to such investment. And the only segment of the world economy that makes out like a bandit is the American aristocracy. -- Mr. Business.
http://GreaterVoice.org/econ/glossary/aristocracy
I'm not real sure why some people are so quick to screech silly shit like racism.
H1B IS NOT IMMIGRATION!!!!!!!!!!
If Americans want to change the immigration laws to allow more immigration from India and Pakistan and less from Mexico then so be it. And if Americans want to increase or decrease immigration on the whole then so be it. But none of that,
nor H1B has to do with racism but for the right winged head bobbers and religious fanatics (see GOP)"
As you can see he has set up his own site to spread awareness about what the GOP has been doing behind the publics back: Greatervoice.org. I doubt he will appreciate being slashdotted so i suggest you check it out at a later time... OTOH this is as good a publicity you can get
In fact, this is not a wild theory. Already, companies moving development offshore.
Even if we accept the (wrong) claim that H1 workers take away American jobs, consider this. Atleast, if H1 workers come here, some of the jobs will go to Americans. If not, ALL JOBS WILL GO TO FOREIGNERS. Which is better? Decide for yourself.
All your favorite sites in one place!
True, true.... but there are a lot of american services companies which are developing those skills and running offshore firms to do the work, and thats working pretty damn well.
I've actually done this for a living at times, and it's not easy, but it's cheaper by far than employing yanks.
Hexayurt - open source refugee shelter,
Oh, a believer in the "solve-a-riddle-get-a-job" mindset. Microsoft hires that way. Everyone complains about their software problems. Maybe this is the cause.
I knew a lot of people in college that could solve these proof type problems pretty easy. They couldn't code worth shit. I know a lot of people that work now and can solve these types of problems. Their code tends to focus on solving one specific problem at the expense of leaving the larger scale part of the problem unanswered. Sounds like making a webserver that serves web pages, but really sucks in terms of security.
Often their code is not reusable in any fashion, and they have a hard time understanding something that is engineered to be reusable and scalable. And when they design a UI, using it is like....solving a proof!
Now, true, I don't know to what depth your questions go. Perhaps they are simpler than what I've encountered. (I did answer the question, anyway. Still didn't take the job.) I'd rather not work somewhere where everyone is trying to wear their brain on their sleeve to make sure everyone knows who is the dominant geek. I've been well paid and have not had to work in that kind of environment for a while. When I did work in that environment, I just couldn't take the hostility everyone turned on me when they realized they were outclassed. (Not that I consider myself a genius either.....everyone knows people that just don't "get it" and I had the unfortunate opportunity to have to work with some of those types.)
Skilled project management in the USA, programming in India, and longer development cycles.
Hexayurt - open source refugee shelter,
I decided I liked it here so I decided to start the road to naturalization. First step was to trade the TN visa (1 year renewable forever) for an H1-B visa (6 year) since TN is not supposed to be used for people who want to immegrate.
And suddenly now I'm the evil one, bent on destroying the american economy or something. Man, I should have stayed on the TN...
BTW, it's not the H1-B that "locks" people into their company like a slave; it's the Labour Certification that you need for a green card. If you change jobs and your new job isn't exactly the same as your old one, you have to restart the LC process from scratch. Here in California, it looks like it will take 3-4 years to get my LC complete. That's in addition to the 3 years it takes to get the green card once you have the LC...
Just in case anyone isn't aware of the individual implications of being a visa worker in the US,
You pay FICA, Social Security & all the other taxes, but are not allowed to collect unemployment or medicare or welfare.
If you lose your job, you have 60 days (15 officially) to get your stuff together and get out of the country unless you find a new job. Kind of hard in today's anti-immegrant climate.
In many ways, illegal immegrants have more rights than legal ones do.
Finally, it's funny how you never see anyone railing about all the immegrants from central and south america who work on the farms to help bring you cheap groceries...
Basically, if the world functioned as a single economic unit, there might be some truth in that.
There is truth in it, because it is the truth. It is an unavoidable, immutable, absolute law of economics. Period. End of story.
And I made no assertion that the world functions as a single economic unit, although all this talk of a "global marketplace" would seem to indicate that many do.
But it doesn't: restrictions on availability of goods (shipping), language, plus governments, get in the way.
Ok, so what we have, basically, is a restriction on the availability of a living wage for a larger and larger portion of a population. There are a lot of people out there who should have no trouble at all finding work who can't get a part-time job straightening clothes racks.
Could you give me some contact info on those lawyers? At the moment I am going through lawyers, but my application is not even through the department of labor yet and I have been going at it for more than a year already.
...often sit in front of large corporations and screen incomming resumes and candidates. If you can't get past the screeners, you never get a shot at a job. I often wonder what kind of deal these screeners do with other agencies vs. taking resumes submitted directly to them over the internet. I see lots of listings at a number of big pharma corps. in my area but I'll be damned if I could ever get past the sceeners. However, as soon as I meet somebody on the "inside" (like at a java/linux/perl/oracle users group meeting) I usually get prompt consideration.
I want to be alone with the sandwich
In my 25 years I've had the chance to experience the broad range of people in this industry. There are benefits to working with people with a broad range of culural differences. It makes the work place more interesting. The issue has never been racist or as much cultural as it has been the issue of the poor handling of these workers by the US Government. Never have I heard so many horror stories than those told by people who feel their hard worked for life style is about to be threatened by being deported back home. Also the inability to change jobs and the overall feeling that they are second class citizen's really impacts on their ability to feel important enough to get promoted. Clean up the H-B process. Either way in or out. But do not keep these fine people paranoid or begging for privilege. On the downside, I have worked with some anti-american imports. One in particular was totally pro-communist china and I was unfortunate enough to work too close to him. He believed in what was being done to Tibet by China, hence I had to start hanging Tibetan prayer flags on my walls.
Look I've worked with several guys on visa from India, and not one of them ever complained about "indentured servitude". In fact they made competitive salaries and were really happy for the opportunity to work here. Most of them go for US citizenship which can take several years so, yes, they will have to work for the same company for that time period to maintain their status. But at the same time all were completely qualified in their field, eager to work, and frankly worked harder at their jobs than most. That was by personal choice not because anyone in the company made them do it.
You Americans have two weeks holiday per year if you're lucky. You have a system where your company can fire you legally on the spot without having to explain anything to anyone. You have a bunch of politicians that are permanently trying to turn your country into the fourth reich.
No thanks!
So, the choice is not between hiring H1-Bs and hiring US citizens - it's between hiring foreigners in the US, or in their own countries. I'd think if they're hired here, atleast the US economy would benefit from the additional consumers.
Ok, I'm here on a student visa. It's a great arrangement, I get my school done, I work for the university, I finish, I leave. For me right now it would be like begging to get an H1. I just finished school, and going to do my practical training. I don't know where I'm going to work, but where ever it is, I can quit any day and have zero problems. H1, you have like 60 to find a new job, or you fall out of status. It's like selling your soul to Mr Biz. Some people came to the US expecting to just live the American Dream. Well the American Dream is not really available if your a slave. So me, I'm going to my country, get a menial job, and eat beans and rice. But I know that I have the right to ask for social security. I know I have the right to quit, and sit on my butt for as long as I want. And I won't be chased down by some green INS police if I get laid off.
Sorry I went on my little soap box, but I hate how they have set up work visas.
Welcome to Global Economy.
Im director of IT in a medical company.. And I know how bad things have gotten. I have a guy who works in my billing Department who is a MSCE. But he does medical Billing and he is from Nyrobi (S. Africa). And I know the guy is hungry to be part of my IS Team.... Though on the other hand, a good friend of mine who lost his job and is father of 3 lost his job and is still jobless. Dammit bob!
Disgruntled Tech-boss
There was never a shortage of US tech people. The shortage was tech people willing to work cheap. So corporations whined and being the goverment always bends over backward in the name of corporate profits started handing out the visa's. Add to that companies moving jobs outside to country to continue getting cheap help. Ireland and India are both places with growing tech industries from run away American companies like Sun.
We're seeing around 6% overall unemployment, but the unemployment rate among experienced developers is much higher than that. The government doesn't track unemployment on an industry-wide basis, but at every users group meeting during the past year a standard question has always been "how many people are unemployed," and the number is always 50% and up.
This survey doesn't mean a lot - the people who are working are often putting in very long hours and may not be able to attend these meetings, but it's a better datapoint than the state-wide statistics which didn't include me at all (since I was self-employed and ineligible for unemployment compensation), or friends who had exhausted their benefits, or other friends who accepted temporary jobs in grocery stores or department stores and are thus no longer "unemployed."
I've heard that the numbers in the metro Denver area may be around 25% in the "IT" sector, but that includes cable installers, telephone linemen, etc., in addition to the people who tend to read Slashdot. It's definitely high enough that a lot of good people have been unemployed for a very long time, and people who are working will be much more risk adverse than healthy for the industry.
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. -- H L Mencken
>>It's a global market, folks - if you want to keep your jobs and their 80K salaries, you've got to be better at something than your international competition, just like a steel manufacturer or anybody else who competes in the global economy.
Something like 70-80% of the US economy is driven by consumer spending. If the consumers have no money to spend, how are you going to get them to buy your products?
Companies that move operations/development to Bangalore will, in the long run, cut their own neck by reducing the number of consumers that can buy their products. Obviously they will need to find a balance point or some other suckers to buy their products.
One has to look at the impact of visa holders on a broader level--companies didn't support the expansion of the program because they wanted to hire individual workers at cheap salaries. As a previous poster wrote, that would be illegal.
No, companies wanted the program expanded so that they could expand the pool of available labor, keeping overall labor expenses down.
Whether those marginal savings were used to fatten profits or remain competitive, I'll leave for those who can decipher Andersen's accounting tricks to discuss.
But, in a time when employment and wages are stagnant, or falling, it certainly is in workers' interested to tighten up the labor market, squeezing supply and increasing wages. Cutting back the visa program is one way to do that.
Of course, convincing all your former co-workers to get out of programming and open their own interior design firms would do that, too. (Heck, someone's gotta replace Martha "Slammer" Stewart.
Why is it called COMMON sense when so few people have it?
How many replies here say "they want to throw H1-Bs out, they want to throw H1-Bs out". I haven't seen any serious proposal to throw H1-Bs out, nor does Congressional Representative Tancredo's bill have to do with this. 195,000 H1-Bs can come in every year, a cap that was raised just recently, and many people want to lower that number at least to what it was a few years ago, especially with so many experienced people having their wages cut or being unemployed. Legally, H1-Bs must be the prevailing rate, but every study has shown they are paid below the prevailing rate, even the government reports say this - thus they are lowering the bill rate even though legally this is not supposed to happen. Also, the money paid for an H1-B visa is supposed to go for worker training but Bush wants to use the money instead to bring in more H1-Bs and have their paperwork done faster. This is not about the H1-Bs who are here, this is about the H1-Bs the ITAA wants to come in tomorrow, the day after tomorrow and next year.
I should also note that Harris Miller of the ITAA who is mentioned in the article is pure evil. Since this all affects my WALLET I pay very close attention to this. A lot of posters here admit they are H1-Bs. For some reason they feel compelled to fight against us to keep the door open for more H1-Bs. I don't know why they want to do this as it just lessens their chance for getting a green card, I really can't perceive why they're doing it at all, but it does make me understand why some people want to throw them all out. At least many of the people were honest that they were H1-Bs, thus, a lot of the comments you see here and moderation has a big agenda behind it. As does mine - I'm looking out for my interests, who isn't? I don't know why they're obsessed with keeping the H1-B visa cap high since they're already in, as it just pisses us off against all H1-Bs and lowers their chance for a green card. Maybe they're just stupid.
H1-Bs aren't the only issue of importance although it's up there. FLSA, section 1706, there are many issues which we should be thinking about. Doctors and Lawyers are smart, they have professional associations like the AMA and ABA, virtually every profession is organized in some fashion, with IT workers though, I guess everyone prefers playing Warcraft III and thinking they're a supergenius. When they survive the first and maybe second round of layoffs, they say those people were dead wood and all of this doesn't matter to them, the world's greatest programmer. But then the profession-wide salary and hourly bill rate drops. Suddenly those 60 hour weeks and 24/7 oncall are for less money - factoring in inflation, a bit less. The ITAA has been fighting to drive down our wages for years and they don't even know it, dumbasses like them will have to learn the hard way. They think the only people who worry about this are people who were paid $100k to write HTML, the reality is that the people most concerned about this are usually very competent in their particular field. Only an idiot doesn't worry about their bill rate and lets themselves get walked all over by the ITAA (funded by Microsoft, IBM, Intel etc.)
In closing, as usual I find many of the postings regarding this issue sickening and repugnant. At least most of the posters admit they are H1-Bs, the fact that their side is posted so much and modded up so high is testament to how large this problem is. Read Norm Matloff's "Debunking the Myth of a Desperate Software Labor Shortage" to learn more, it covers all the bases. And as I said, H1-B is not the only issue - FLSA, section 1706, there's a lot of things to think about.
Here's my web page on these topics. Reading the replies here has me nauseated, BUT, there are a mass of people who think as I do, and we communicate and are helping organize things like discussed in this article, so knowing that gives me hope. We need every person on board to help us move this forward. The ITAA is coming to take money out of your pocket, only by joining together and organizing can we fight this. Also, people usually reply to my posts replying to things I never said, when I say organize they start listing why they don't like unions. Where did I say unions? I said organize together and fight for your own common interests like every other damned profession. The ITAA (Microsoft, IBM, Intel etc.) are an organization attacking us, so what's so odd about organizing to defend ourselves from the ITAA, if we're all alone and isolated they'll just pick us off one at a time. Organize means organize how YOU want to - if you want a guild, join a guild, if you want a union, join Washtech/CWA, if you want a professional association, join a good one, or join IEEE and stir up a ruckus in their old-line, do nothing, corporate-sponsored meetings. A lot of people are stupid - they don't want to be in a union so they get up and shout that no IT person is allowed to be in a union. Uh, no, that means that's what you don't want in your particular situation right now. I personally do not want a union, I like the professional associations and guilds more, but I'm not going to be a little sycophantic lapdog for my manager and condemn unions - if someone wants to be try to form a union, more power to them - right now, telecommunications, government and aerospace has a lot of unionized IT people and I would personally love to see it spread to BODY SHOPS. But by and large, aside from body shops, I am going for the association/guild route. But I am not going to condemn anyone who wants a union, I only condemn the lapdogs and sycophants for the ITAA.
Did anybody say anything about them not being qualified? Regardless of their qualifications, the point they're making is that Americans are being deprived of jobs in America because of an influx in foreign workers entering the country.
The last two companies I worked for hired foreign workers for programming positions. I don't know what they were paid. I don't care. I will say this, some of the brightest programmers and other IT technical people I've ever met (and certainly worked with) were Russian, Indian, Persian, or German (mostly Indian and Russian, tho).
They work harder and find few excuses and are so detail oriented that when compared with the other American workers there, put the Americans to shame. I, am American. I even found myself lazy compared to them.
The company only required 35 hours a week (my salary was $72 -- I was R&D). We had two hour lunches. They didn't hardly care much about being in-tune with their work, as I on the other hand, devoted my life to squeezing every last bit of performance out of whatever I could and reading trade magazines and buying every book on the shelf about programming out of my pocket. I game my all, but not all my hours.
They, gave all their hours (when not required to) and often did exemplary work in their projects. I must say, I see no harm in foreign workers. Americans (as I've seen but I haven't seen them all) are simply lazy when compared to them. Again, based on what I've seen which is by no means exhaustive. I'm proud to have met those people and watched 1 Indian and 1 Russian become and American citizen as a result of corporate sponsorship.
Thanks,
Me
The issue seems to be far greater than "supply and demand".
I would not mind working for only 25% of my salary if
(so that we can complete with cheap labor overseas) if
I can also pay only 25% on the grocery and only
25% for housing. If we cut everything by 75% my
relative standard of living will stay about the
same.
The problem to all this is that "the world" wants
me to take a pay cut (so that others stay competitive),
while, at the same time, they hike my bills, rent, utilities, and
groceries without caring about me "staying competive."
Simple stories like supply and demand, I am affraid, is not
the whole explanation.
An untrue statement. I speak from firsthand experience - I am a US citizen that was displaced by a H1-B visa holder. It happened to me. It has happened to friends and colleagues. There are loopholes galore - company A contracts out to company B that staffs with foreign immigrants on temporary visas.
AZspot
Foreigners have made considerable contributions to technology in the US. The Manhattan project team had large numbers of refugees in it.
What about the fscking Blair Witch project?
My girlfriend was not dropping a kid from June 2001 to April 2002.
My friend who does telecom sales has not been jerking off since October 2001, although his wife did do some sales (specifically, her car) to pay the mortgage.
And let me assure you that my boss from my second job hasn't "found himself" since December of last year.
So might I humbly suggest you keep your fucking mouth shut when you don't have the first clue you're talking about. People who lose their jobs tend to spend their time glued to their computer searching the listings, hitting job fairs or calling old contacts. It's not like losing your $15/hour job there in college where you can just call your parents and have them send you money.
I'm a skilled tech worker, but I only have 3 years of full-time professional experience. Right now, this makes me almost unemployable -- the HR bunnies just toss my resume into the bin when they see when I graduated. I was very lucky to get recommended by a friend to the job I have now. So don't talk to me about you mad computer skillz and how you can get a job at will because you're such a legendary hacker. And don't you fucking presume to tell me that it's not really bad out there, because I damn well know different.
Every year during my review, I just pray the words "slashdot.org" aren't mentioned.
Many of us don't have a problem with current H1B workers staying in the country... but we can't understand why additional workers are still being brought in while so many experienced programmers can't even get their resumes acknowledged.
This isn't even nationalistic - every damn time some idiot chirps up in one of the local user groups "Hi, I just moved to town and I'm looking for good places to find a job!" you can hear people grinding their teeth. Nothing can be done about that (esp. with Gov. Nero insisting that the state continues to be an IT powerhouse despite the collapse of both the IT and telco industries), but limiting immigration is one of the core elements of national soverignty.
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. -- H L Mencken
There's a simple fact that is ALWAYS overlooked in the anti-H1-B argument:
- If they come to the US to work, they PAY TAXES TO THE US GOV'T. Remember they can't get Medicare, Social Security, etc, but they have to pay it.
How, exactly is it better for companies to send the work overseas to utilize the same person? Companies can and do do that, in in that situation the programmer doing the work isn't returning less than they could to the US economy by being in-country since Uncle Sam ain't getting a cent.
After recently seeing the lengths companies will go to to make and/or fake a buck, you're dreaming if you think the work won't just be contracted overseas (or Northward).
The layoffs are not done on basis of citizenship. Its on qualification, performance and dedication.
When I was doing my Masters from Purdue, most of Masters students in Electrical and Computer Sciences were non Americans. I used to TA a undergrad class and have never found a foreign student get bad grades. Maybe its that they cant lose their scholarships that makes them work hard. But either way, they come out of school learning quite a lot.
At work, I have seen many H1B workers work very hard. Maybe because they usually dont have a very firm financial base here or maybe they dont have much social ties and spend all their time at work. They eventually do a better job, aquire good skills and climb the company ladder. So employers do like them.
As for low pay, in the good old days of economic boom, I haven't seen H1Bs being paid less than their peers. I have seen them rise in the company hierarchy and do well. But now that the economy is turning bad, many employers not hiring H1Bs. I have seen people forced to work on salaries which don't compensate their skills. Because they if they dont have a job, they have to leave in 14 days. For most of them with kids at school and property, it is a very tough situation. So they take paycuts. Everyone is getting hit hard, but they are getting a bigger share of it.
So perhaps its not fair to blame them. Maybe we should take a leaf from their book and try to inculcate these qualities so that our managers dont find us dispensable.
It's a shorthand for "Die Nazional Sozialistische Arbeiter Partei Deutschland's" or the NSAPD.
Or in English: The Nationalist Socialist Workers Party of Germany.
Don't the people get mad and riot whenever a batch of foreigners are hired to work in their country for any profession?
homegrown, skillful and expensive -or- imported, skillful and cheap...hmmm...it shouldn't be difficult to choose from a business standpoint (more bang for the co's buck). and this is all there is to it, its all business. there is a way to level the playing field, lower your asking salary, if you really want a job in a very competitive industry.
(not the original poster)
Ponzi schemes refer to a famous pyramid scam run by a gentleman of that name. Pyramid scams exist by having a large number of new investors giving money that is transferred to the previous set of investors. It depends on having an increasing base number of suckers.The SS is designed as a pyramid scam, and was set up assuming an ever increasing US population and that most of the yokels would die off before collecting.
SOCIAL SECURITY IS NOT A NORMAL INVESTMENT
Normally an investment set up with a payout date can be treated as an asset, and unpaid monies could be granted to your heirs. SS pockets the money if you die.
Normally an investment set up with a payout will have a fixed value so you can compare it to other investments. SS unilaterally changes benefits based on political whim.
Normally an investment is a voluntary agreement. SS is mandatory, with heavy penalties for non compliance.
It's time to take care of our own. Helping other countries is noble but ignoring your own country is a greater crime.
This reasoning is frequently trotted out to defend the practice of displacing American workers with cheaper foreign temporary visa holders. But it is disingenuous - in fact, H1-B is used to augment and support the offshore movement of jobs. Many corporations attempted to move entire systems application support with futile results. So, now a different approach is used - offshore staffing augmented by a "liason" team, predominately comprised of H1-B visa holders. Consequently, H1-B program enables offshore movement of programming jobs ...
AZspot
Great. You get a short term solution because these workers help us complete the technical gap. Let's say this is true for the moment, which I am quite sure many will say it is.
So Mr Patel gets a nice job with some tech firm and has a few kids in the US. What happens when Patel Jr is graduating from college and it's time to get a job?
Most likely he will not have the same technical skill know-how that his father had because he wasn't well educated here.
I am against H1-B's not because they supposedly take my job, but because it's short sighted. WHatever happened in investing into your own? In this case, for you smart asses, "your own" means fellow Americans. I want my tax dollars to go to good education programs. I want my tax dollars to go to teachers who work their asses off day and night to make sure their students get a great education.
Call it Nationalism. Call it jingoism. Call it Racism. I'm the great-grandchild of migrant Mexican workers, and if one thing is certain, we must work on long term solutions to ensure OUR OWN can have the potential for a great future.
I have to agree with Zeinfeld. In the long run, we all have to compete on the world level. We can let lots of people from all over the world join us here in the States to keep our tech sector competitive (H1B approach). Or we can watch US companies outsource and companies located in other countries become more competitive. I would much rather have to compete for jobs in the US with Indians on H1B visas, and work in companies kept competitive partially by the talent from India, than to have to move to India to find a job, after our tech sector becomes uncompetitive. If don't like the H1B program, start studying Hindi now.
Send the muds back to their stinkhole country before they turn our country into one like their own!
They may get a higher salary now at the cost of lost jobs and lost productivity for US firms. I couldn't care less, they can do what they want, as long as there's no "software import" restrictions.
The thay we see them will be the day US techies have lost the edge (because now they export lots more than they import).
unfinished: (adj.)
Was it a "waste time and money" boom or a "tech boom"? I'm going to say it doesn't matter. Seriously, what if they're one and the same?
Obviously, new web sites and e-commerce businesses went online at exponential rates in '99 and 2000. You had the whole "Y2K scare" which turned out to be a non-issue, too.
Nonetheless, it took lots of folks with technical skills to check that code and patch Y2K flaws. It took people with HTML, coding, and systems administration skills to run all those web sites.
Maybe they did turn out to be a complete waste of everyone's time -- but it doesn't change the fact that it required lots of tech-savvy people to make it all happen.
It was clearly a "boom" for people with the right technical skillsets - whether or not it proved to advance society as a whole in the long-run.
The Roman Empire had this problem. The patricians were rich but not quite rich enough. So they thought they could be much more competitive if they got some slaves and expanded their estates. They didnt have to pay lobbyists what our patricians have to, but of course we have pay our slaves. So they passed some laws, had some citizens thrown off their lands, expanded thier estates and fought some more wars to get more slaves.
Trouble was the slaves weren't as good at fighting as the citizens, something about motivation, and the time came they needed lots of citizens as the rest of the world was pissed off. But then it was too late...Rome was sacked and burned and the Empire fell.
Of course these days they're really not slaves...just sort of pseudo-citizens. But if 9-11 was any indication, they are sort of pissed off...anyone want to go fight for the US so our patricians can benefit from the labor of a class of pseudo-citizens?
But it sounds like you're taking this whole thing rather hard. Remember that finding a job in the 'real world' is more luck then skill. You just have to get lucky, the trick is to be prepared to not screw up your chance when it comes. Which is why you need an education, contacts and other things to make sure that you are going to be in the right place in the right time.
You act as though only people from India and China can use a computer. What an ignorant remark! I know many people (some of them "illegal" immigrants) from Mexico and Columbia who are excellent programmers! Maybe you should take your racist ideas back to Nazi Germany where they belong! Fucking ignorant Americans!
or even flaimbait
I don't buy RMS' solution ("Get rid of the morons by turning the industry into a job-shop, making it so unprofitable that *only* people who love the profession will stay voluntarily").
But I sure as *heck* don't buy the IEEE's solution of "getting rid of all H1-B workers, regardless of competence, so that there will be jobs for citizen, regardless of *in*competence".
Most of the people who are out of work in the IT industry are out of work because they don't have the necessary skills for a reduced market size, where you actually have to be able to *do the work* in order to have a job.
These are the people who went into IT because they thought that that was their best opportunity for a big payday. They obtained their credentials by expending the minimum possible effort; no spending until 2-3AM, daily, in the computer lab for these people. And they are the same class of people who flooded the business schools, when an MBA was considered golden, and before that law schools, when a Juris Doctorate was considered golden, and medical schools, before that.
They are people who are chasing the money, rather than the profession, and they are involved only because of their love of money, not their love of the work.
And it's the same percentage of the pool of total workers, as it is the percentage of the H1-B workers... or non-H1-B workers.
Society would be much better off, if these people were to learn how to say "Would you like fries with that?", and stay out of jobs that put other people's livelihood, welfare, property, or lives at risk. Perhaps they could become cabinet ministers.
-- Terry
Why is it that /.er's rally to all sorts of left wing causes like denial of intellectual property rights, anti-defense establishment, "rights" at the expense of security, anything anti-authority, etc. but, when it comes to a threat from the Global Economy to their job, they sound like a bunch of unionized, America firsters? I can't believe the number of posts I've read that assert that the author deserves a job over someone who is more qualified, more experienced and/or willing to work for less simply because "I iz an Americun" and the other applicant isn't.
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither safety nor liberty.
Ben
I've been a manager, and let me tell you, hiring an H-1B person was discouraged (albeit mildly), because of the delay in starting at the job, and the legal costs. We couldn't pay H-1Bs any less than citizens or permanent residents (green-card holders). As a manager I preferred to hire smart and outspoken people, not meek and obedient serfs as some here have implied managers want. The best people make waves, and you don't have to be born and raised in this country to do so.
Is the US economy better off for the H-1B program? Absolutely. Can there be too many foreign workers? Of course. I don't claim to know what the right number is, or even if the present numbers are too high or too low. The point is that individual experience cannot tell you that, only a detailed and unbiased study can. As individuals we should not extrapolate from our bitterness. As you long as people look for scapegoats among the powerless instead of considering the powerful ones actually responsible, there will always be this kind of crap bandied about.
Unlimited growth == Cancer.
There's no need to target computer
people for special competition from overseas.
There's no need to double the quota every
2 years. Roll back the quota to 1990 levels
and give H1-Bs citizenship track; cut out the
lawyers and give H1-Bs the right to quit their
job and get another without penalty.
Limited citizenship track: yes. Unlimited
indentured servitude: NO !!!!
Open up new H1-B program to all workers including
Doctors, lawyers, firmen, policmen and teachers.
Don't pick on American geeks!!!!
(* You either bring Adit over here on an H1B, or send the software to India to be written by his company in Bangalore. *)
I've had it with Adit!
PHB's really prefer visible butts in visible chairs and will pay a premium for them.
We don't let everybody in other profession over here, why techies? Why? because other professions protect their own profession via trade groups, etc.
Try to let auto mechanics and truck drivers come drifting over on planes and see what happens.
Groups who don't protect themselves politically are gonna get walked all over by those with other agendas, and that is exactly what happened.
I can't believe congress is allowing this during one of the worse tech-slumps ever.
(* if you want to keep your jobs and their 80K salaries *)
Who the heck is getting 80K? Lowering the asking price does not matter if you don't have a Crest Smile and the correct 30 acronyms on your resume.
F H1B!
Table-ized A.I.
Matloff's sect 4 makes clear the desperation is on the part of job hunters, not employers. And when I see 200+ capable people turning up for a half-dozen positions (late 90s), I have a hard time believing in a labour shortage.
To paraphrase P.J. O'Roarke, its not like the economy is a pizza and if I have too many slices you're left with just the box. If economics were a zero-sum game like that, then more immigrants would mean less jobs. Since, in fact, immigrants must spend their money on services and products made by natives, they create as many jobs as they fill.
Stephen Moore at the Cato Institute did an interesting study about the H1-B issue:
"...every additional high-tech worker brings to the United States about $110,000 of free human capital. An additional 50,000 H1-b immigrant visas is the equivalent of a $5.5 billion transfer of wealth from the citizens of foreign countries to the citizens of the United States. High-tech immigration is like reverse foreign aid."
"Give a man a fish and he will ask for tartar sauce and French fries!"
And isn't it funny that the first people :
to cry racism are the pro H1-Bers?
Then why are 50% plus of the H1Bs from
India and 90% plus are male? Can anybody
say "racism" and "sexism"? Are black
American females untrainable? I say
"Help American First" !!!!
On the one hand you have the hard working people wanting to come over to America and do a good job. That is what the system was set up for.
However on the other hand you have the manipulators of the system. Having seen this side of it first hand I can tell you that some things do need to be changed. I have seen companies bring over workers to the US which know next to nothing about programming (other than some quick classes) and higher them out at cheap wages. The people do it so they can get into the US. Companies do it to make a buck. Are these people qualified for the positions? Not even close. I knew of two recently, both of which were Certified Java Engineers who could not code to save their lives. They spent most of their time cruising the net and writing code that didn't work worth a crap. Eventually they were let go and they went on to the next unsuspecting company.
While the intentions of the system were good and honorable, they are in fact being abused! The system does need to change. One suggestion I have had which tends to fall on deaf ears is a matter of liscensing engineers. Require extremely hard exams to be passed before you can be considered an engineer. Have different levels of test, progressively harder, to reach the next level. This will filter our the lazy americans who are out to make a quick buck and will filter out the immigrants who are also not qualified for the positions.
The Tech industry is in the middle of an upturn. A lot of people who joined during the .com times will have to go back to their original jobs. It all comes down to qualifications, we need a system to seperate the wheat from the shaft.
seSales, Point of Sale software for OS X.
Summary:
H1B Good + Americans Bad = +5 Interesting!!!
H1B Bad + Americans First = -1 Troll/FlameBait!!
If the moderators here cannot live with criticism and opinions on both sides of the story, then GO MOD ANOTHER FORUM.
That said, I am all for a limited number of H1 Visas here, and the people come here willingly. They are not slave labor, and yes the H1B people get paid less than Americans do, but the visas cost MONEY.
If you want a level employment playing field, I would suggest raising the cost of those Visas and actually issuing more of them. I would like to see the economic penalty the same for hiring any worker, thus bringing everything down to qualifications. I have worked with an equal number of incompetent H1B and american workers, and I would hate to see either side either subsidised or taken advantage of.
Just hit the mod down button, you're going to do it anyways.
I'm a citizen, but just because I am a citizen it doesn't mean I have more rights than a person working in the country with a Visa. America is free country, which we are also free to be unemployed if we are too damn lazy or stupid to work for it. If you a shitty engineer, who doesn't have the skills, go clean bathrooms. Stop your whining and do something about it.
Not sure what it proves, but its a fact - on my Ph.D. graduation from a top program in the country, more then half of those graduating were foreighn students. Russia, China.. little bit of others ;-)
It is definitely MORE expensive for the university to hire foreign Ph.D. students - no fellowships for them, only university funds. They also make lousy TAs - for paying undergrads. I got my money from a U.S. government agency - thank you Uncle Sam - -that was your tax dollars..
Guess our qualifications outweighted that.
I am definitely paid more then most locals, and company wants to keep me around, and I do not see a line of engineers who can do my job - even now - outside the office..
BUt if I am not welcome - fine - I always wanted to try Australia - or maybe Germany..
Wonder what Saddam will pay? Yeah, I can do nukes
<^>_<(ô ô)>_<^>
Note that employeers are required to pay prevailing salaries, and that in many cases it's H1B workers themselves that are clueless about their rights.
Of course it may be related to racism and all -- I happend to be WASP. That makes me part of "minority of minority" I guess.
And as to your "not staying for six years gets your deported", I don't know which cereal box you were reading when you saw it. That's absurd. After 6 years you need to have started green card application ("naturalization") process, H1B can NOT be extended past 6 years...
also called country and western style of 20th-century American popular music that originated among whites in rural areas of the South and West. The term country and western music (later shortened to country music) was adopted by the recording industry in 1949 to replace the derogatory label "hillbilly music."
...
Ultimately, country music's roots lie in the ballads, folk songs, and popular songs of the English,
Immigration is THE issue of the next millenium.
The next millennium is a long time away. If the human race makes it to there, then I don't think that there will be any such thing as "immigration" per se, unless we encounter extraterrestrial life.
Um, we're the country everyone tries to sneak into, remember?
and I'm not sure if this has been brought up at all but are we looking at how many of the people that are complaining/out out jobs/foreigners (any of these) are actual coders or people that went with java two years back coz that was what was paying and tried their had at c# coz it's microsh*t; when have then done anything wrong? That's what I'd like to know!
Slashdot readers are tech people (some incompetent IT people who are now out of work). But it's bad form to simply say that you want to screw over some foreigner or that you want to be paid tons of money regardless of whether you're worth it. So to "protect" the poor foreign workers, you want their jobs to be given to you at higher pay? Yeaaah...
And of course, if someone gets fired, it's *never* their fault...
May we never see th
I know dozens of H1Bs - they are all paid more then you.
Also - check with textile, steel and other industries. Then check the "Made in.. ' labels on your clothes and your toys.. That labels will be all over the rest of your high tech products..
Yup. That fellow with the blanket (Linus something or other) could be one of them H1B fellows. I bet this is just another Microsoft attack on OpenSource! Do we really need all these H1B guys to work on a bomber? Huh?
DON'T think about it! Damn, too late...
That's the wrong model. These jobs are created in the US because that's where the programmers want to live. Companies are competing for programmers internationally, and a US location is merely another benefit, like health care and stock options. If the US restricts the availability of that benefit, companies are still going to hire the same people, they are just going to work in different locations. If it were up to companies, they would dearly love to employ programmers in India, Asia, or Europe, where salaries and other costs are generally much lower than in, say, Silicon Valley or NYC.
And if it were up to foreign governments, they would like to see nothing more than to have the US restrict skill-based visas and immigration because the US, quite unfairly, takes advantage of the well-functioning social services and educational systems of other countries to replenish its own labor market. That's why California can get away with such an underfunded educational system and still have a high-tech industry.
The US really only has two choices: let foreign programmers into the country and derive the economic benefits in taxes from that, or see those jobs and programmers go overseas. In the era of global software companies and outsourcing, it is simply not possible to force companies to give programming jobs to Americans if they don't think it's in their interest.
If it's them or us, I vote us.
That's because you are a terrible person
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
ha!
You know, if they got rid of H1B visas, the price of labour would go up. do you think *your* government would look kindly on simple wage-slaves demanding a restriction on supply, while the price of their labour went through the roof????
I suppose, all you Capitalists, who would would give their best McCarthy knee-jerk to: "FORM A COMPUTER PROFESSIONALS UNION AND DEMAND BETTER TREATMENT" on the other hand are crying for a Gummint restriction on supply in the fluid labour market...
Its amazing.
P-L-U-T-O-C-R-A-C-Y
One of the main reasons for this [alleged Java skills shortage] is that developers experience an initial decreased level of productivity when migrating from other languages such as COBOL and RAD/4GL to Java. The leap, in many cases, is just too demanding. "Due to the steep learning curve, less than 50% of the job market demand for efficient Java developers will be satisfied by 2003," says Gartner.
This is because Java sucks, simple.
It has a steep learning curve because of all the bogus OO hype crap like the cute but unrealistic animal, shape, and device driver examples that PHB's fall for.
The API's are screwy and OO methodologies are highly inconsistent from practicioner to practicioner. (If you disagree, then show me the fricken pattern of same-ness instead of just modding me down.)
They want more H1B's because Java sucks? Ironic. I would like to see that testonomy in a congressional hearing. What a hoot.
oop.ismad.com
Table-ized A.I.
Any economist will also tell you that people going to school or bumming around Europe are not considered "unemployed."
No shit, dumbass. If they were the unemployment rate in this country would be about 55% Not 6. Notice the person you are replying to said 'workers' not 'people'
Before the 90s boom, most economists were beginning to give up on the idea of a 4% unemployment rate as realistic. The only time the unemployment rate was anywhere near 2% was during WWII!
In the interim, the rate was between 5 and 7, IIRC
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
Where is my social security? All taxes I give as a H1-B will never come back to me as social security. The US government is stealing money from my hard work. I cannot have a 401 K , a retirement plan and cannot do business of my own.
YOu guys had chinese people to build your roads now you have indians to build your information superhighway.
Shame
Easily solved if you don't have their H1-B's dependant on keeping a job.
I mean, if they're living here they gotta spend money to eat, live, etc. Does it really matter if they decide to quit their job and just hang out?
It's not a very good statistic due to the fact that 50% of all students who enter college intent on earning a bachelor's degree (in any subject) either fail out or change majors prior to graduation. So there's 10% more in the technical fields, is it really a surprise?
I would bet if you looked at a field like education, there would be a smaller number of drop outs/major changes.
Also, speaking as a senior seeking a theoretical computer science degree (BSc) I can attest that it's not easy, it requires alot of work. I will be very proud to earn my Diploma come May '03 and I hope there's a job for me, but I don't blame people who enter CS/EE/CE thinking it sounds good who later find out what is really involved who then quit. I think the MATH gets alot of people too, not necessarily the other classes and elements.
sig: There are two mistaakes in this sig.
how can you get an H1-b for yourself? Did you get it from the VCs or what?
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
Mod up. (I'm not the same AC).
I think that the H1-B visa program has a bad effect on the future of the US as a world technology leader.
While one can argue with that the effect of having qualified H1-B employees in the US is good for the economic strength of the nation, I feel that this is likely to be a short term effect. Other nations that currently export their best talent to the US are working hard to develop programs to keep this talent at home.
In the meantime the lack of economic incentive for homegrown US technical talent due to salaries being depressed by the availability of a large labor pool (supply/demand) is causing the best/brightest to pursue other opportuniites. This has an effect both on the current labor pool, and the future ability to develop homegrown technical talent because of the decay of the educational infrastructure that results when students are not interested in a field.
As talent exporting countries develop ways to provide opportunities at home, the H1-B pool will dry up, and the American educational system will NOT have the means to to provide the needed talent, while universities abroad that have been supplying the US with talent will now be fueling thier native economies, and the US will not have the trained talent to keep up.
Policy makers are doing the country a great disservice by bowing to business demands that are notoriously governed by quarterly profit statements, rather than considering the longer term need to educate its citizens to compete with the rest of the world.
Who the hell listens to them anyway?!?!?
Knowing java or C++ is no big deal. Too many people seem to think they have some kind of special, unique skill if they can write a program.
What we need are people that not only can write the code, but also understand the business they write the code for, and contribute to the entire development life cycle.
It's a free market. If you want the big dollars, you better have something to offer that makes you stand out.
IEEE has many offices in India and China and
keeps awarding Fellowship to Indians.
Arun Netravali, Lucent CTO was given highest medal of honor in USA.
Now you hypocritical engineers, Go and do your work instead of shouting and losing jobs.
Now, if you dont want H1B why did you vote politicians who create laws for H1s. You are all hypocrites, opportunistic suckers.
Be ashamed of yourselves for not being able to do math in your head. If not for foreigners you will be an underdeveloped nation of canyons and mountains. Nation of immigrants, and now shouting.
Keep shouting, We hibs are having solid fun
Racism? Cripes! Why are the H1-Bs 20 something
males from India? Sexism? Agism? Racism? Who's
practicing these? America can afford to train
females. American can afford to train blacks.
Americans can afford to re-train people over age 30.
Remember, Bill Gates is the richest man in the world. He can afford to invest in Americans.
Sad but true...sad but true.
*cough* unless you are regionally employed, like a postman, plumber, fireman, etc...bascially all the jobs that noone on this website has any experience with.
Why do a lot of the pro-H1-B posts
scream "racism"? That seems to be
your only defense. Why not look into
the H1-B program and decide who is really
the racist. Of all the countries in the world,
most H1-Bs come from India. Are Brazilians
or American blacks or smart American females
untrainable? It looks like big fat American
companies are practicing racism. C'mon, man,
I think you should point the finger the other way.
Mumbling platitudes doesn't make it true. Sure, costs would rise but so would wages. The golden age of America,the 1950s, saw little immigration (legal or otherwise). Only the rich (owners of capital) have benefited tremendously by cheap labor. The average American would be better of with tighter immigration laws. In fact, tighter immigration is *wildly* polular. Lobbying by special business interests for cheap labor has led to lax enforcement and the rise of the non-citizen foreigner who is legally prevented from the benefits of citzenship. This is highly un-American. We need to cut back to 1960s immigration levels and re-think what we expect out of our immigrants. We owe them a fair, basic chance to become citizens but not allow so many of them that companies can use them to suppress American workers. We'd be better off.
That's right, since the work can to
to India, let the work go to India.
So we don't need H1-Bs, right?
There was a debate on slashdot about globalization and unions a year ago, alot of the high tech upper class posters on slashdot claimed globalization was good and would help them, that americans would always have jobs.
Well, things are changing, the economy is not all that great anymore and now its hard to get a job.
Whats the solution? Well the first thing we can do
RAISE THE MINIMUM WAGE
If we are going to have globalization we must have a global minimum wage, this wage. This wage must be high enough so anyone from any country can make a living and survive on it.
I'm surprised we havent raised the minimum wage here in the USA, $6 an hour? You cant live off $6 an hour! We need liveable wages, we need fair treatment of workers in all countries.
All workers should be of equal value, value should be based on the job done not the country you are from, you should get paid the same if you are in pakistan as you would if you were in the USA.
This is the ONLY and I mean ONLY way, that we can have globalization work, without us all losing our jobs here in the USA.
I mean why hire us, people in china and pakistan will work for pennies and can live off of pennies, our standard of living will eventually be lower than theirs because we cant live off of pennies in fact we wont even have a job.
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
I'm a current H1-B holder, I've also had an L1-B (intra-company transfer)and 3 TN NAFTA visas. Currently, I'm going through the naturalization process (I married an American). I have a Master's degree and an MCSE (and lots of other crapola certifications). Oh, and I'm a IEEE associate member (but I'm not renewing this). I think I have a little experience with this issue.
t ics/Immigs.htm
IMHO, the last group of foreigners that need to be singled out for reduction are the H1-B visa holders. There are a lot more immigrants that come to the US and leech of the welfare system than there are foreigners with legitimate Master's degrees.
The criteria for an H1-B are pretty strict and although a few companies abuse the system these are not the norm. I found most companies would prefer to hire an American than have to deal with the INS hassles.
Check out the immigration stats for the year 2000 (the INS just posted these - they aren't to fast):
FY 2000 Highlights
A total of 849,807, persons legally immigrated to the United States. Of that total, 407,402 obtained their visas abroad from the Department of State and 442,405 were granted adjustment of status i.e. permanent residence, by the INS.
The major categories of immigrants were: immediate relatives of U.S. citizens (348,879), family preferences (235,280), employment preferences (107,024), diversity program (50,945) and, refugee/asylee adjustments (65,941).
Sixty-eight percent of legal immigrants settled in the following six states: California (217,753), New York (106,061), Florida (98,391), Texas (63,840), Illinois (40,013) and New Jersey (36,180).
Five countries accounted for 39 percent of immigrants:
Mexico (173,919), The People's Republic of China (45,652), Philippines (42,474), India (42,046), and Vietnam (26,747).
From:
http://www.ins.usdoj.gov/graphics/aboutins/statis
These are people that are allowed to stay forever! (110,000 of them are most likely going to be directly drawing from the US welfare system). Not for 3-6 years like and H1-B visa holders.
Americans need to educate themselves on the facts and work harder at getting a good education. If the US really wanted to do things properly they would set higher educational criteria on who they let in the US. There is a ton of really good, smart, and educated people in the world that would love to come to the US to live and work but are ineligible because the US is too busy taking in "diversity" and "refugee/asylum" immigrants that may or may not become contributing members of society.
Of course, I'm also kind of a cold-hearted SOB who believes religiously in the PONS theory.
It's up to the US electorate to vote and contact their congressman on this issue. The US gives it's citizens more freedom and power than they typically realize or utilize. I hope to have a vote in this issue some day (ETA for my citizenship only 6-8 more years!) and I will be sure to make my voice heard.
Does anybody really believe that a country with more than 250 million people has problems with less than 0.1% of foreign workers?
This is one H1-B worker for every 1000 own persons?
How much would this decrease the unemployeed rate? Maybe from 5.7 to 5.65%
Few comments from Southern California...
.bomb
.com years was a hype driven by business people who had no clue about technology nor did they care. All they cared about were big $$$.
.com years.
.com crash. It was the greed of financial world that unleashed today's crisis connected with the short sight ness of politicians driven by the big business.
I think that we are seeing few things happening all at the same time:
1. over saturation of the IT market due to the most recent
2. psychological response of companies to all the crap that is happening on Wall Street
3. wider adoption of Open Source software happening "behind the door"
4. lack of MANAGEMENT PEOPLE WHO REALLY GET IT
(I am talking from my own 9 years experience in the IT & software world)
IT is extremely helpful when used in the proper way. What we saw during
The hype factor and the lack of common sense were present everywhere. It was the part of the great experience of us people learning to use the IT technology. Many times the management tried to bend people to make the technology work (CRM!!!). This should be changed - we should bend the technology to make it work for PEOPLE. This is such a simple idea yet so many people don't get it. Now, the job marker & HR depts are simply taking revenge for the golden
Business world created the world of "due tomorrow" software projects and non realistic deadlines and requirements. The business world still does not get how IT & software is being done !
I am sorry to say but HR guys have NO CLUE about technical requirements and yet they are supposed to look for the talent ? How can they spot the phony who reads the IT magazines all the time and can hype himself into a job from a trained, experienced software engineer without 20 years of HTML experience?
And how about the management ? How is the management able to make bottom line decisions about technology when their perception is usually influenced by the bad opinion of technology. Many companies still see the IT department as the expense item !!!
In few years, the globalization beast charged by the global Internet access will make countries like Russia or China very competitive in the business software. Not only India is the great power of the IT. America needs to wake up if it wants to compete in the global market place! People in this country need to get together and think about how to make themselves more competitive in the global economy. Or think about building isolated, nationalistic economy that is protected from the foreign influence. Something will have to happen or all of us CS people will be soon working in the "SERVICE SECTOR" selling pizza and movie tickets.
Some things, like the adoption of the open source are unavoidable but how do you create new jobs knowing what we know about the Open Source. Knowing that it works VERY WELL? Maybe this is something that people should think about?
I also believe that people in this country do want to study computer science and sciences in general. If not, maybe they should seriously thinking about lowering their standards of living in the future. Like looking at that guy who works in McDonalds and thinking that this will one day be me.
I have been unemployed for way too long for my degree . I am simply unable to find a job that pays my bills (medium size apartment). I graduated from a US university, paid my taxes and now I have to struggle to find a job. And I am getting very, very angry and frustrated.
It was not the IT workforce that created the
IT workers should get their act together or in few years they will have to move oversees to work in their professions. In 5 years you will either sell pizza in US (service based economy) or write software in Bulgaria. The climate is very similar to Southern California but is this what globalization of business really means to us?
The future of business will largely depend on the information processing. Somebody will have to do this. If I get so frustrated as to think about changing my career so that I can provide for my family, who will do it for you America ? IT is a strategic sector of this country economy and outsourcing to China or Russia won't cut it.
People - WAKE UP or there won't be enough pizza left for us to sell !!!
Nocturne (noc747@hotmail.com)
Give the jobs to the most qualified. Companies are here to make money not support lazy and stupid Americans (note: not all Americans are lazy and stupid)
Some dude in a big fat Mercedes .. Give Americans a chance!
sedan with Virgina tags saying "ITAA"
driving 95mph down I-95 almost drove me
off the road. Guess Harris couldn't get
to his beach house fast enough. Had to
run over a few more 6 year old needs repair
American made cars, I guess. What a chump
this guy is. What a jerk. Pure evil.
Harris, if you read this, slow down, slow down.
And
My fiance' moved to the US from Sweden about five months ago. With a Masters' degree from one of Europe's most prestigious CompSci/Engineering universities, a Sun java certification, and several years' proven experience with some of Europe's largest IT consulting firms doing SQL programming, PHP/ASP scripting, Java & Linux development - We had one hell of a time finding an employer in the US to sponsor her.
Nearly all of the firms with listings in our area flatly stated that they would not sponsor. Most of them print this in their ads. The reasons are simple:
1. $1,000 sponsorship fee, paid to US Government
2. $1,000 15-day H1B premium processing fee, payable by employee. If you don't chose this option, paperwork takes 3-5 months.
3. $130 filing fee.
4. An absolute blizzard of paperwork. We were unable to find an immigration attorney in our city that even understood the process. (South Bend, Indiana) - We ended up retaining a high-caliber immigration specialist from Houston TX. Their fee? $1,750.
It's safe to say that none but the Fortune 1000 are willing to tackle the expense or have the expertise in handling the daunting forms.
We finally found a local company willing to sponsor her, a local health care facility. They were very excited to get her, offered to hire her on the spot and reimbursed half her expenses. Why? *drumroll* - The position went unfilled for nearly five months as they were unable to find a qualified person locally.
She is most certainly not being taken advantage of, having been offered a salary very much in line with her duties and educational background.
Say what you will about the H1-B, but we can certainly tell you - It's alot harder to get sponsored than you think.
THIS SPACE INTENTIONALLY LEFT BLANK.
I used to work for Siemens Rolm down in Santa Clara, at a wage where I couldn't afford the least of their PBX products (unless you count a solitary Rolmphone, which I'm not sure you could order). How does that make them automatically go out of business?
Nike makes their shoes in Indonesia, paying workers (scandalously) tiny wages to make $100 shoes. The workers can't afford the shoes. Yet Nike somehow doesn't automatically go bankrupt.
A company's customer base is not the same as its worker base, especially for high-end or niche products.
Have I misunderstood your point completely?
This would appear to spell doom for Ferrari, Lamborghini, DeBeers, Moet et Chandon--and Freightliner, Terex, and Boeing. In fact, it would appear to spell doom for any company making a "luxury" good or any kind of capital equipment. It is simply not the case--an enormous number of companies produce goods that their employees can never hope to be able to afford. This does not mean that Pratt & Whitney is running a sweatshop--just that they make big-ticket capital items that are not sold at the mall.
Simple historical fact:
What is an historical fact is that over time any job with specialized technical knowledge will be automated to the point that less-expensive workers can do it. The classic economic case study is typesetting: from the time of Gutenberg until the early 1880s type was set by hand. It was a time-consuming process that required real skill--a capable, quick typesetter could make good money. When Ottmar Mergenthaler introduced his Linotype machine (which made it possible for anybody who could use a keyboard to set better type in a fraction of the time) approximately 90% of typesetters lost their jobs. More or less overnight.
Programming computers is a specialized task that requires expert knowledge. Guess what? The natural response of any businessman will be to try to find a cheaper solution. Some are looking overseas (such as Bangalore), others are importing workers on temp visas. The long-term trend will be to simpler and simpler computer systems that require less skilled talent--and talent with less skill. A good case in point is in small accounting systems: ten years ago there were a lot of people writing accounting systems for small companies. Nowadays those companies buy QuickBooks, or go upscale to buy Solomon or Best. The marketplace for single-user PC accounting software development is essentially gone.
Some people recognize this...
...and learn new skills. Nobody is looking for a programmer to write a G/L package in FoxPro anymore. But there are people looking for programmers to write GIS software; and people looking for programmers to write Palm OS or WinCE software; and people looking for programmers to write Web software; and so on. And the programmers who continue to focus on learning those skills, and learning to work in new markets, and learning to adapt to a changing marketplace will thrive.
Those who do not--who just expect the same skills in the same industry to last them a lifetime--will ultimately be left with nothing to do but whine to Congress about H1Bs taking their jobs.
It would cost more to leave the USA than it would cost to just hire american workers!
Lets see building new offices means hiring a huge workforce to build these offices, and the cost of running both offices at the same time for a while will get expensive until they close the american offices down.
Lets not forget, that hiring people in other countries means the people in those countries will have absolutely no loyalty at all.
Microsoft will have no way to keep their great programmers from leaving them and going next door to Corel, because in these countries, there wont be a retirement plan, they wont get any benifits, they'll just go whereever the gold is, whoever pays the best.
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
Three Reasons for H1B:
1) The hottest theme in technology is "replaceable engineers". That is, you lose someone, you can pick up where they left off in a couple days. To do this, you need a big pool of applicants.
2) Hold down American wage earners. Don't read me the text of the bill--it's bullshit. H1B holds salary and demand down for all technology workers in America, that's just a fact.
3) Brain Drain. Rather than have these people work in their own country, and possibly come up with a novel or inventive idea before the USA, god forbid start a company making something cool, bring them over here and "own" their work.
Don't tell me about improvements to the economy. I would gladly let a lot of people into America--on one condition: You can't cherry pick. You get cops, doctors, pilots, politicians, bankers, hookers, engineers. THAT would be incredible for the economy, and be fair across the board.
The most annoying thing about H1B is the proof it provides as to exactly how corrupt America is.
My brother was one of the last workers at a big-name Aeospace facility that was being shut down. This company was a huge proponent of H1B--"We can't get enough engineers! Look at all the jobs we have unfilled on the website!".
They had over 500 positions open for a year and a half while they lobbied for H1B, and they never interviewed or hired a single person; in fact they were laying off. It's all a scam.
Thanks for asking.
Treatment, not tyranny. End the drug war and free our American POWs.
See my user info for links.
When demand was up, we let in more people. Now that demand is down, we should let in less.
What about all the H1-B workers already in the US? The last thing they need is more incoming H1-B workers as well. It is really pretty obvious, we hand them out based on demand. If demand is low (or non-existent) we should scale them back. That is just common sense.
What else can you argue, that we should NEVER scale back H1-B visas under any circumstances?
This isn't about visa workers vs. non-visa workers. It is about people already living in the US and looking for work (including visa people) vs. people attempting to come in. Why let more in when there are plenty already here?
Openings are down, total workers is about constant. Think about it.
I am tempted to tell the IEEE to go stuff themselves next time they ask me to chair a conference or workshop for them.
As an IEEE and IEEE-USA member, i would appreciate it if you do so. Thanks. Bye.
This type of activity is pretty clueless. Two years ago the US was screaming out for every engineer it go lay its hands on.
Crap. The U.S. wasn't screaming for foreign labor, Some U.S. companies claimed that they couldn't find resident workers, and those claims have been refuted. You, sir, are clueless.
Learn some basic economics.
.. Rich people do not hoard up money under their beds, they invest it to make more money and bring even better products and services and generate even more jobs.
Don't be communist.
Free trade and cheaper labor mean more jobs and better products and services for everyone across the board.
If you increase the cost of production, the economy gets screwed. And NO
Why do you think half the stuff in your house is made elsewhere in the world?
Imagine if you had to pay more for the things you buy. You would have less things, and the less things you have it means the less industrial production and therefore jobs there are.
Just like Mike Tyson says, " Everybody's got a plan until they get hit". Same goes for Engineers
Maybe we should hire overseas CEO'S and managers to flood the market with those folks and pay them a middle income wage instead of 6 figures a year.
Also, I look forward to working in Europe at some point in the next few years. If we make it difficult for their nationals to work here, then it will become more difficult for Americans to work abroad.
I can see it now. If every American was out of a job and foreign workers had the jobs, and one person spoke up and said, "Hey what is going on, the government has to do something!" There would still be people saying, "What are you a racist or xenophobe?" "You Americans just want too much money," or something of similar sort. Regardless if there were equally compentent American replacements for the foreign workers.
What is wrong with the Government looking out for it's own? That is what they are elected for!
Communication Workers of America is a techie union,
United Auto Workers also include some (very small) tech companies.
The final effect though is a wage freeze usually for 1-2 years enabling short term profit then the usual layoffs, reorganization or company sale.
The world is getting full. Over a billion people have probably been born since you have. If you think you've seen racism and xenophobia, you aint seen nothing. Wait until we hit the 8, 9, and 10 billion marks. The more crowded we get, the worse it'll be.
I'm something of a radical in that I believe we should abolish passports and national borders. This puts me somewhere near "anarchist" on the conventional political scale... and that in itself says something about our society.
I do want to make a point, though, about your accusation against "the geek community." Coming here and calling us a bunch of bigots is pretty stupid. I mean, if you know the community, you've got to realize it's like any other, diverse, and actually unlike others in _how_ diverse it is. As a function of our relative level of education, there are going to be more intelligent views on the subject here than in other places.
I've got an observation for you, since you seem to be so quick to call people bigots. It's simple human nature for people to create an us/them dichotomy and to be protective and xenophobic. This is almost an animal instinct; its deeply ingrained social behavior and it has (or had) a distinct evolutionary function. You are guilty of thinking this way too. If you examine yourself very carefully, you'll realize I'm right. Maybe someday we'll solve this problem but in the meantime I bet acting shocked about it isn't productive. Call people stupid and they act stupid. Praise their intelligence and they get smarter, know what I mean?
I have a big hunch that that "similar - if not better standard of living" country you're from isn't taking any applications for citizenship. It's funny how Europeans in America criticize Americans for being xenophobic, when by comparison we practically have open borders.
From the Java link..."Due to the steep learning curve, less than 50% of the job market demand for efficient Java developers will be satisfied by 2003," says Gartner..
If one has trouble learning Java (& it's derivatives ala C#), their development skills are suspect.
And this is what lies at the root of most of those scared of foreign competition.
Try learning C/C++ if you think Java is hard.
Did you know that 4 percent is the zero point; it is the point where you are considered to have no unemployment in a field. This is because economist have realized what apparently IEEE does not. That is, with people transiting jobs, lazy people, and untalented people alone you will have a constant 4 percent or greater unemployment rate in any field, and this assumes that the economy is doing well. So that means that in the first quarter or "Only a few months ago guys" engineers pretty much had zero unemployment. Now they have a little tiny bit, and they think the federal government should begin making laws to fix this terrible atrocity for them. This is how our country loses its focus. Check your skills again fellas and I don't mean in C++, I mean against your local job market. Then get hot fixing your own problems, not asking the government to fix them. America is a capitalist society and I love that, that is why I am glad to know that they cannot stop companies that find better, cheaper, or just choose to find people outside this country for labor. This country is founded on making a profit whether we like it or not, and we always do if we are the ones making it. If you are a truly talented engineer and you are starving in an economy with 5.3 % unemployment, then you need to take a long look at what is missing.
This thread reminds me of this joke...
Joe Smith started the day early having set his alarm clock (MADE
IN JAPAN) for 6 a.m. While his coffeepot (MADE IN CHINA) was
perking, he shaved with his electric razor (MADE IN HONG KONG).
He put on a dress shirt (MADE IN SRI LANKA), designer jeans (MADE
IN SINGAPORE) and tennis shoes (MADE IN KOREA). After cooking his
breakfast in his new electric skillet (MADE IN INDIA) he sat down
with his calculator (MADE IN MEXICO) to see how much he could
spend today. After setting his watch (MADE IN TAIWAN) to the
radio (MADE IN INDIA) he got in his car (MADE IN GERMANY) and
continued his search for a good paying AMERICAN JOB. At the end
of yet another discouraging and fruitless day, Joe decided to
relax for a while. He put on his sandals (MADE IN BRAZIL) poured
himself a glass of wine (MADE IN FRANCE) and turned on
his TV (MADE IN INDONESIA), and then wondered why he can't find a good
paying job in.....AMERICA.....
Cheers
Frankly, people who use coercion and violence to reduce their competition make me sick.
Where's the violence, you say? How do you think immigration restrictions are enforced? By government officials pouting real hard if you don't do what they say?
1)If we let in every Chinese and Indian who wanted to come here to work in IT.. then IT worker salaries in the US would fall to Indian and Chinese levels since there is an almost endless supply of them willing to come here and work for low wages. This is basic economics.
2)If we toss out the illegals, production costs will not rise so much that normal people cannot buy the products.. just the CEOs will have to take pay cuts, adn that is what *would* happen. In other industrialized countries without H1B, people can afford products just fine. Just there is more balance (ie. engineer pay up, CEO pay down).
3)The reason there is a shortage of engineers going through school is that the smart people realize that there is no future in it, and choose to study something else, or like me, once they see what is going on, choose to leave the field and take another line of work that has a future, pays better and doesn't have mountains of H1B's waiting to take your job away if you dont agree to work for peanuts. When my kids are ready for college one day, IT is not something I plan to be recommending to them to study for those very reasons. .
Could we ask 40 Helens?
The main purpose of permanent residency status is to allow someone to live and work in the U.S. without fear of being deported on a whim (such as losing your job on an H1B visa, for example). If someone wants to, they can get U.S. citizenship -- but that requires a committment to be a full-fledged American. Often giving up one's birth citizenship is encouraged (though not often actually required), since it's hard to be a full-fledged American if you still consider yourself a citizen of a foreign country. Not everyone wants to make that committment, and permanent residency status allows those who don't to avoid it while still enjoying 80% or so of the benefits of citizenship.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
Put yourself in the company's position
You're not in business to provide job opportunities to earnest, diligent folk who have been working hard to get vendor certifications. You are in business to sell a product, perform a service, move material from point A to point B, or otherwise earn a buck. And--as you have noticed--earning a buck is not easy these days, for you or your prospective employer. What does the company do?
Any reasonable business manager--any competent business manager--is going to 1) seriously question why anybody needs to be hired at all, and 2) if somebody simply must be hired, look/wait for candidates with years of real experience. That's not prejudice or foolishness--it's called 'mitigating risk.' (Five syllables that can also be expressed in the acronym CYA.)
So when a manager sees a resume from somebody with two or three years of experience developing database applications, and two or three years experience developing with Java, he or she will invariably pick that resume over one with a lot of vendor certificates, but no experience. That's enormously frustrating when you're young--but it is a fact of life.
Two points:
First, yes--experience is more valuable than reading about the subject in a book. An oft-cited statistic (although I think it must be exaggerated) is that 70% of IT projects fail. Maybe it's true, maybe it's not--what's important is that IT managers believe it. In consequence they have come to really value "full life-cycle experience"--starting on a new project, working through design, development, deployment, and perhaps into a second release. Why? Because it indicates that you are less likely than most to paint yourself into a logical corner. You are less likely to quit when the project bogs down. You are more likely to contribute to a successful team. In hockey they keep a statistic called the on-ice scoring differential: there are players who never rack up a lot of points, but the teams with a lot of high-differential guys always seem to win. If you have gone full life-cycle on two or three projects you may not be the star player--but chances are your team will score. You simply don't (and can't) get that from a book--or from a training class. You get that from experience--either from working with a good team and a good tech lead, or from hard experience working for a bozo.
Second, you can get experience--valuable experience that will help you get a better job next time. The woods are full of non-profits that don't have a web page--or have a web page that truly stinks. They can all use a much more interactive web site--give them a data-driven web site (perhaps using SlashCode, so it is self-maintaining) and you have a showpiece. If you have done something particularly clever (like making it data-driven, so it is self-maintaining) you can turn your interview into a show-and-tell: here's a site I developed, and here's what's happening under the hood. When conversation in the interview turns to maintaining state or ensuring secure access, you can draw an analogy to how you solved the problem already for North Coast Therapeutic Riding or somebody else. (And, I might add, make the world a better place at the same time.)
About this time last year I was hip-deep in the second round of proposals for a big job: a little under $75,000 for the first phase, with a probable follow-on for another $25,000--plus some vigorish on the equipment and server software. Nothing huge--but a nice bit of work that would let me hire a couple of friends, and build a relationship with a big brokerage house that would likely be the source of more work down the road. We won the job--and were set to start on September 17.
Except, on September 11th, the World Trade Center collapsed. And the brokerage firm that was funding the project collapsed with it. My project, and my cash flow for 6 months, collapsed with it. I did not whine, I did not write letters to Congress blaming my troubles on H-1Bs. I called old clients, I picked up dribs and drabs, I networked like crazy, I hustled my cakes. I just landed a very sweet gig recently--but I had to give up a chunk of money on my typical day rate to get it. I'm still not whining--I spent some of my time over the past year developing new skills (FreeBSD) and improving others (GIS applications, Apache). I developed web sites for two non-profits, and helped a third network their offices. I gained experience.
You're evidently a young person--and you're faced with the conundrum we all had to face: how do you get experience when nobody will hire you? You have to find people who will give you a chance--sometimes by taking a pay cut, sometimes by working for free. Some day you'll wake up and discover that you really have been there, and done that, and that all of a sudden you're the most experienced person in the office. It will come, but only with time, effort, and hustle. And no whining.
When ever you post to online resume services be sure to include key words. Most companies have programs run through the resumes for specific keywords and throw out the rest. So when applying to a job online just add a bunch of keywords at the bottom of the resume that correspond to the job description. It will atleast get you past the first stage.
In order for the international trade programs to be consistent with this criteria it is necessary that the citizens of the US receive net benefit from them. The case has been made on both sides without much evidence that the bulk of the citizens aren't suffering a net loss in their value of citizenship. A really good example is dependence on foreign oil. This is great for globalism however it is not clear that it is great for the citizens of the United States.
Throwing programmers at a problem isn't necessarily going to make for a good software industry anymore than throwing foreign oil at the domestic markets for energy is going to make the economy or quality of life so great for the citizenst that it makes up for the loss of opportunities to develop altenative fuels let alone for situations like the US's entanglements in the Middle East that led to the terrorist attacks so that we can all sacrifice our freedoms to central government agencies.
Seastead this.
And labor at that cost doesn't have to even be talented. Just throw meat at the problem until brute force makes it work! Sad really, if you're into writing good code.
What makes engineers experts on Visas, the recession, and job outsourcing? Oh wait, it's just a conflict of interest.
For decades you have outsourced the work you didn't to countries like Mexico because it was cheaper. Now that times are tough, jobs higher up the ladder will be outsourced. But hey, that's free trade the way you guys wanted it. You can't have your cake and it it too. So quit your sorry ass American whinning. You can't be the takers all the time.
I had to staff a group of 15, up from 3, all during the "rise" of the so called Internet job board.
The trouble with these services is the readability and sheer number of crap resumes they return. The "signal to noise" ratio is horrible.
I can scan hundreds of nicely formatted 2-page paper resumes in a lazy morning, over coffee. But, that isn't what *job*.com gave me. I got a bazillion textual e-mail messages that were forwarded by some HR grunt that used "tabs" as their e-mail quote text marker.
Frankly, it isn't worth trying to decifer the wrapped text mess that is 30% of the crap that shows up. Next, Outlook can't open and delete a resume anywhere near as quickly as I can flip a paper sheet. Then, trying to do critical reading on a CRT/LCD screen is an absolute migraine. Last, but not least, 90% of the fools out there couldn't help from pressing "Apply" just 'cus they could.
So, HR suggested they use keyword scanning on resumes before they made it to me. "C/Unix" returned too many hits, so they started adding in more and more secondary details to cut the flow. Next they started demanding "industry experience" in absolute terms. Then, the degree went from an attribute to a binary decision flag.
F*ck, all I want is a Computer type with aptitude and enough exposure I can get them up to speed in 5-6 months. I've been in 6 distinct industries and, frankly, none of them are all so complicated as to amount to a hill of beans for a truely professional (attitude restrained) IT type.
"Electronic Counter Measures" never work and "they" all started following *job*.com's own advice for building the grand idea of a keyword "scannable" resume. So now "I'm" looking for a "perfect" 12 postion key that fits some fictitous 12 position lock that is HR's view of my "job" posting. How very pointless.
So we tried a group approch. One big pile of printed resumes in a meeting room off HR. A group of 3 technical managers would "prune" the pile each week, into stacks by technology used in the company. Still too many, too many idots, still opaque as to their writing skills due to formatting noise, etc.
In the end, HR now spends some time playing where's waldo tricks on few *job*.com resumes now and again. They go through "resume management" software faster than a kid through ice cream. If they felt really motivated by one of the 1% of resume's they happened to open, they'd forward me that specially tab scrambled textual format. And, yea, I probably won't read it.
I still give my personal 3 second review to every formatted dead tree that lands on my desk. Getting a recruiter to submit a FAX will do that, as will sending in a paper copy.
I happen to think JNJ's and Spencer Stuart's technique is best of breed. You submit a profile and formatted resume, then they e-mail potential matches to you. If the matches are "off" you can refine your profile until they match your abilities. You just click on the invite to apply.
(* Having or not having a tech job relies very much on whether you are qualified or not. If you are good at what you do, you will have no trouble finding a good job. *)
I don't think this is the case. Interviews and actual work are *not* the same thing. I don't interview very well because of my geeky personality, but do good work.
It is usually the BS-artists who get hiring priority in my observation.
Table-ized A.I.
This moving of jobs out of the US is really starting to eat into things. The outsource call center I work at in the DFW area is moving it's jobs to Canada where they pay about a 3rd less than here. Next week, some friends and I are getting laid off so some corporate types can get bigger houses and faster cars. Our supervisor gets this stupid smile on her face when she walks someone because she knows it's more brownie points for her.
If your in the US and you call for tech support be sure to ask where they are located. If they aren't in the US, asked to be tranfered back to a US call center.
*It's not what you can do for the Dark Side but what the Dark Side can do for you!*
I am a IEEE member and I think this is bogus so not all those members are supportive of it.
To quote from the IEEE website, "The IEEE (Eye-triple-E) is a non-profit, technical professional association of more than 377,000 individual members in 150 countries". I don't think that the IEEE should even enter in this topic.
Personally, I believe this does not really represent the wishes of IEEE members but instead represents the views of a small group that runs the IEEE. As far as I can tell these are mostly older males who used to work for the US defense industry and upset their skills are no longer needed by many companies.
I think that we are simply being screwed up by the technology that we developed ourselves.
It is possible to work out of the part of the world where the cost of living is $250, selling services and competing with a guy like me who has to pay $1800 for his cost of living. Free trade was a good idea but it looks like free trade + technology = high unemployment for Americans.
I have nothing against competition but I think we need to think more about sustainability than free trade. Let's compare costs of living across the world to see who gets screwed up the most here ?
The IT world is a perfect candidate for the digital outsourcing of labor oversees but what kind of jobs will be left for us working here ?
Come on, let's get real here and take the global look at the problem. Regulating H1B visa holders will not solve the problem. Companies will simply move overseas and sell us their products from there.... Maybe somebody will come up with a good idea to solve this problem ?
Noc
A lot of firms do this in india, H1B lets you move employees from a foreign company that you own into the united states for the wages they earn in their home country.
So basicly you can get a consultant working for 10,000 a year + living expenses and then bill him out as a professional to another company for 1/2 of what they pay their guys. They pinkslip all their guys and hand off all their work to the h1b holders, cutting costs.
The h1b people accept the indentured servant status because they will eventually be able to get citizenship, not a bad deal.
information technology association of america. it is an association of tech companies that saw they had a problem: CS labor cost too damn much. solution: inflate the labor supply. technique: as old as bacon.... recruitment drives for college CS programs, brainwash teachers and professors with how there is a 'shortage of workers' (they do this in the 1930s in the california fruti fields too, to the dust bowl refugees) , and visits by their PR people to colleges proclaiming a' need for tech workers'... even when 500,000 just got layed off.
hard to swallow, but if you believe
"on the whole" blacks are inferior to whites....
then "on the whole" whites are inferior to yellows and browns.
ask the administration, they know something you dont want to accept.
now all the labs in the world are going to clone THEM, not whites.
too bad.
and you were worried about visas..!
There is a goatse link in the parent post
The LAW has NO allowance for salary as a factor in opening the job to the H1B program. It is the LAW that if an American worker can do the task, the job is, like it or not, simply not open to H1B sponsorship. Companies are required to attest to that fact when they file a sponsorship. Too bad lies are the currency of modern America.
Yeah, and where is the enforcement?
"Proving" what wages should be for a complex mesh of skills is like mowing the lawn with tweezers.
Table-ized A.I.
Let me break it down for those people who want to protect themselves by curbing H-1B's: 1, It is not possible to pay an H-1B a lower salary. The first stage of an H-1B is a labor certification that states what salary will be paid. This has to be higher that what the INS considers to be the norm for the qualification and the work location of the cadidate. If not, the application will be REJECTED. If you don't believe me call you friendly neighborhood INS officer. 2, Unless you are Native American, we really shouldn't be having this discussion. 3, How many members of IEEE-USA are H-1Bs??? 4, Have you ever consider the fact that H-1Bs CREATE jobs too? Go look up how many startups are founded by people have come to this country on H-1Bs. Let me give you a hint, if they are Indian or Chinese they probably came here either directly or indirectly on an H-1B. While you are at it look up venture capitalists too, since they are heavily involved in creating companies (if you haven't figured that out yet) People who think that they are cheated out of jobs by H-1s are diplaying : a, A lack of the ability to think. b, A lack of basic knowledge of the real world and economy c, Laziness in doing some research in finding facts These characteristics make them very poor programmers. They SHOULD be replaced with more intelligent H-1Bs.
Tablizer writes:
soc.bi is that ==================>> way.
I hate the H1b program because it's straight-up exploitation for the benefit of exorbitantly profitable companies, at the expense not only of the native workforce, but also of the visa holders themselves. Sure, there are some H1bs who end up, because of their specialized skills, with companies that aren't currently fucking them in the ass, but the whole point of the fucking program is to ensure that when it comes to nutcutting time, management can squeeze and squeeze and squeeze, and, facing deportation, the H1b will bend over and take it.
I work for a large, profitable, Internet company that you've all heard of. The team I work on, as a C++ developer, is composed almost entirely (90%) of H1b visa holders. They run the same gamut of ability as any similarly sized group of green-card holders or citizens; some better, some worse. There's no discernable skill differentiation; one of the database dudes is as good an engineer as I've ever met, and a couple of the people in "senior" engineering jobs shouldn't be allowed near a keyboard.
There've been vague threats to move development off-shore, and in fact many of the H1bs are plainly here to prepare for that eventuality, despite the disastrous failure of a previous attempt.
However, a memo recently went out (that I fortuitously took home) wherein the team was reminded that, (a) as we were all expected to work towards a big upcoming deadline, any requests for time off would not merely be denied but rather held as evidence that our dedication to the company was sadly insufficient, and as if that wasn't clear enough, with the straight-up threat that we'd be fired just for asking; and (b) that regardless of how many hours we actually worked, the company would not honor more than a 40 hour/week invoice.
Stupefied, I asked my coworkers about it, and they all seemed inured to this kind of thing, and in fact, all work 12-14 hour days. Many had seen similar notices at other companies. A few were actually surprised at my shock. Is it any surprise at all that nearly every single person there is an Indian on an H1b? Would they try this shit -- just blatantly illegal, both by state and Federal statute -- on citizens? Or, heaven forbid, on a unionized workforce? Two guesses, sparky.
I showed the memo to a friend of mine, an attorney, and she about fell out of her chair. I'm trying to gauge how widespread this practice is, because this smells like a massive lawsuit just itching to happen. I'd love to bust these pigfuckers wide open.
The fact that you somehow got moderated up means there are a lot of Slashdot readers smoking crack!
What a fool believes, he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.
Why not just give citizenship to anyone skilled enough to be remotely recruited!? Just let them be citizens if they like, they have already proven their value to the economy. Would you have a problem with that?
If the USA was really genuinely interested in adding these workers to the talent pool, then the proper thing to do would be to grant them citizenship at the same time. H1-B visas have a number of characteristics which unduely hurt the rights of the workers and for whatever reason, founded or not, cause problems when it's layoff time. To tell someone who's been in a country for 5 years - paying taxes, I might add - that they have 10 days to leave? That seems very extreme.
If the USA is not willing to grant these people citizenship, then it should be asked why. That will be more revealing than anything else, I think. North America is unique in that it's modern form is completely the work of relatively recent immigrants, in some way, shape, or form. The demographics in Canada and the USA will change drastically over the next few years as immigration is going to be needed to provide the next generation of consumers. People just aren't having kids the way they used to in Canada, and it plays out in the USA as well. Immigration is the only alternative.
That said, they do guarantee employers access to intellectual capital - people - at a market rate without relocating to another country. Many american corporations, particularly call-centers and the like, relocate to Canada because it much easier to get an affordable educated workforce, and the phone systems are largely integrated. Do not assume that by denying a H1-B a job, you necessarily provide one to an american worker at twice the rate of pay. At some point, it's cheaper to move operations. This doesn't mean some sweatshop in India either, as many people seem to assume. There is a signifigant advantage to relocating operations in Canada (very close, great exchange rate - chop salaries by 45%!, native english speakers, etc etc). Same can be said for Ireland, Scotland, England, etc.
The issue is complicated. I have a EE degree, and have never had a problem finding work if I was willing to accept the salary the market was willing to bear, and be willing to move where the jobs are. Anyone with a EE degree who can't find work has another superset of circumstances working against them, IMHO. Welcome to the new economy, (tm) (r) (c).
My $0.02 (cdn)
..don't panic
The real fault is (some)management. They have forgotten there is a lead time for new IT skills, so when a new project comes up, they buy others in, over the incumbent. Visas should be issued to those who train, not those wanting quick fixes and to meet a deadline for a 'project'. AFAIK, plenty IT underemployment, but too much 'you must have solid skills in a b and c - where just a and b are not enough.
Exactly who pushed congress for the H1-B visa expansion? Technology company OWNERS and MANAGERS!
By the late 90's many HR people in corporate America were complaining that tech employees were very expensive. CEOs realized that the only way to decrease the cost of technology employees was to increase the supply. Many of these companies told congress that there was a technology worker shortage in this country. Congress believed that if they didn't allow the workers to come here, the companies would go offshore.
So what did congress do? Congress extended the H1-B visa program. A classic case of the tail wagging the dog.
-ted
What about the CCNA Cert course that the gov paid for when I was unemployed after 9/11?
As a telecom guy that got the axe last Oct., the gov was kind enough to pay for CCNA cert school. Too bad there are no jobs available to me...
Why hire and develop the skills of local talent when you can employ foreigners (identifying someone as a foreigner is not racist btw).
I used to make 80k now I am looking for 40k... and you(all of the above posters) think I have high expectations?
After reading about 90% of the comments, I've concluded 90% of those people actually have jobs.
It's a different world my friends when you don't have a job. (A job in your field that is. A job which you actually love. A job where you actually have to think. A job that actually has benefits) When every job I apply to has AT LEAST over 500 other applicants.
No, I'm not holding out for the BIG MONEY. I just want a job. It could pay as little as $25K right now. It could be $10/hr temp work for all I care. The jobs don't exist. Check out how many jobs there are in the Star Tribune(Minneapolis) and all the job boards in this area. Then think how many people live in this area. Then cross-out the vapor-ads. No I'm not a script kiddie/bad grades/2 yr techie/4 yr suck ass school/flunkie. I have a B.S. from a CS accredited U. (not the U of M, I hate gophers) I have lots of "industry experience". I will live anywhere. It doesn't matter.
There aren't enough jobs for everyone.
(In a semi-related story, I've had around 2% of the ads I apply to just turn around and sell my info on my resume. After it happened the first time, I started to change my name/address a little bit e.g. add a Suite 7 or whatever to the address. You can't imagine how many &##*#)*( #(!!!!!! credit card apps I get. Actually, I've thought about starting a new company that only offers vapor-jobs, just get all the app info from resumes, and sell the information. Hey I'm desperate, I know it's ruthless, but that's what these blasted companies are doing with my name.)
And don't say I have attitude. Just wait until you are laid off. And it's been a year...
Arrogant?
We don't need you... In actuality, we never did.
Do you think that there was not one unemployed American that could do your job?
This has nothing to do with racism as indicated in many posts on the site - it has to do with taking care of your own house.
It would better if we had to "suffer" without your help so that one of our local competitors could develop the experience in the job that you are occupying right now.
A prospective employer likes your resume, applies for an H1B visa for you. If/when it's granted, you get to enter the USA.
What you don't see is that behind the scenes, the employer has to show:
1) they advertised the position and no suitably qualified American citizen applied;
2) the pay scale is equal to the going rate for the advertised position;
3) that the position has been advertised for sufficiently long time that any interested citizen can apply.
Once the H1B is granted, it is valid for a maximum of 6 years, after which the worker has to exit the US for 1 year, then repeat the process.
During the worker's 6 years of H1B, a green card can be applied for. This requires:
a) Labor Certification - i.e. proving the job was advertised and still no qualified citizen wants it. Dept of Labor also checks that H1B is being paid the going rate, not slave wages;
b) Petition for Alien Worker - where the employer begs the INS for permission to apply for a green card.
c) Filing for the Green Card, and possibly for a temp work permit if the H1B visa will soon expire;
d) get to your local INS office very early in the morning complete the final paperwork and to get a stamp in your passport. You need to take along two very specific photos (head/shoulders, 3/4 face, right ear showing, not too much hair, etc), and if the INS official disapproves of them, you have to get new ones.
I think I may have missed a step between b) and c), but I'm not sure.
The major criterion in H1B and Green Card apps is that the position has to be advertised, at a fair salary, and there were no qualified citizens that wanted the job . If an H1B is going for a green card and a qualified citizen applies during the advertisement stage, the H1B is out and the citizen gets the job.
Here in Oklahoma Labor Cert can take 30-45 days, the Petition for an Alien Worker can take 18 months, and the Green card app take a further 2 years or so.
Humorous side note: my 10yo daughter, wearing long hair and a dress, was standing right in front of the INS official and even so was marked on the final app as a boy... We didn't notice until the plastic card arrived. The same official also stamped my passport with a temporary visa stamp that expired the previous day instead of [now+1 year], because someone had altered the date stamp and hadn't put it back... Fortunately I caught that one while the official was processing my wife's papers.
"We can't afford to mentor very many juniors,"
Of course you can't, that would be looking toward the future.
There are tons of eager and capable people out there wanting to work. If they are never given the opportunity because you are restricting your search to a narrow range of skills, you will have to rely on other countries for labor...
But that is the goal, right?
People should not risk being sent home for leaving their current job. Immigration and greencards should be biased towards (a) those with education and (b) those with a job and/or family waithing for them. If your company wants a foreign worker, said worker should be recieving a greencard.
The Christian religion has been and still is the principal enemy of moral progress in the world. -- Bertrand Russell
You can argue racism, you can argue xenophobia.
But here's a simple test. If, as is claimed, H1-Bs are so much work to hire, then companies must be hiring them because:
A. Coroprations think H1-bs are cool!
B. The training is better in poorer countries.
C. They feel like giving H1-Bs a chance at the American Dream.
D. H1-Bs cost the large corporations millions less.
So much for Americans being better at the three Ms. Indians are catching up in Music, Movies, and Microcode.
There are no trails. There are no trees out here.
Especially once exchange rates are taken into account
.com & Y2K scams have come their course & the boom days are over.
It's that simple, imagine, people getting paid anywhere between US$50,000 & millions to buggerise arround on computers half the day & gossip the other half of the day.
I wonder what percentage of that input actually produces anything of substance. I'd say less than 5%
Lets face it the average Mexican fruitpicker in California is more productive than the average Californian IT worker.
Really I don't see any justification for the average IT worker in the US earning more than double the US minimum wage. Even then IMAO they are only getting that extra over the minimum wage, as compo for wasting their time for studying such as unproductive stuff at college for 4 years, or whatever.
Maybe its about time they realised that the
Or they could simply deflate the inflated US$, which more than anything else is killing US competitiveness.
No wonder GM is planning to sell Holden Utes ('ute' is short for utility) as El Caminos & Holden Monaros as Pontiac GTOs in the USA. Here's a Monaro ad video
The rule that non-citizens must inform the INS of their location within 10 days of any move is now being enforced. Once the Department of Homeland Security gets cranked up, all that data will be in a tracking system. Entry and exit from the US will soon be correlated with visa status and tax reporting from employers. And all this will soon be tied in with the new national driver's license system.
In a year or two, anybody who has overstayed a visa and gets pulled over for speeding will go to jail, then out of the US.
Got invited to work in the US, do our best at work, followed US rules, then promptly kicked out. Oh well, I think I'll do the same for all of you back home...
There are 1 million programmers in the U.S., according to the last census data. Just like there are one million police officers, and one million people in prisons.
We are talking 20% of the IT workforce here.
(Not that I agree with the idea of limiting H1-B visas, but at least be honest about the numbers).
-- Terry
RB:What that means is if you have 100 workers and 100 jobs, at any given moment 6 of them will be unemployed (going to school, bumming around Europe, dropping a kid, "finding themselves", or just jerking off).
bun: Any economist will also tell you that people going to school or bumming around Europe are not considered "unemployed."
autopr0n: No shit, dumbass. If they were the unemployment rate in this country would be about 55% Not 6. Notice the person you are replying to said 'workers' not 'people'
People who are "bumming around Europe," "going to school," "dropping a kid," "finding themselves," or "just jerking off," are typically not looking for full time work. Therefore, the majority of them would not be included in government unemployment statistics. Calling them "workers" was probably an error on behalf of Robber--not a major one, but an error nonetheless. Those unemployed but looking for work, as another poster noted, are not frolicking about in Europe. They are spending day in and day out beating the streets for a job.
Having said that, I'm not sure I understand your rabid frothing at the mouth. Mature a little and learn to treat people with dignity, because if you don't, you won't get any.
This is obviously an infected issue, by far, and it needs to be resolve to the satisfaction of the american tech workers, in one way or another. Just ignoring it is dumb and will lead to even more problems in the future.
/dev/.com and /dev/chapter11 so jobs are tight and I have a good job here. My girlfriend is in the process of getting over here instead (with all what that means) and I don't want to give up a very good chance I have here to make some good money. After a few years we would like to move to the states.
But I would like to point out a different scenario than many of the posters here have pointed out. I am not living in a poor country, and I won't work for a low wage. If I would get a job it would be because of what I know and what I can do.
I am also not interested in comming to america and bringing my 20 people family with me, nor am I interested in working the states for a few years and then leave. Nor I am trying to make my fortune.
So why would I like to come to the states then? Simply because I have happen to fall in love with an American girl. Jupp, good old "does not compute" love. I would blend in in american society, everyone would think that I am from Minnesota (like my GF) for various reasons which I leave up to the reader. I have no ill intent and would simply like to spend my life with the one I love, and for that I need a job to stay in the states.
As it has happened, the economy is still fscking
I am aware of the fact that I can apply for an alien spouse visa after we are married, so I would have a fairly good chance of getting to work in the states if there would be a job comming up.
I just wanted to show a different side to it all.
What about the fact that all those college degree = bigger salary studies are now invalidated?
What about the bright minds who are now in fucking debt?
What about people who can code a complete app in a day not being able to get a job, but some morons who argue over fonts and refuse to even try to web-enable their services get technical writing positions?
The message on the other side of this sig is false.
There's plenty of talented coders here in the US.
Why should I go into debt in college in the US, if the US doesn't want to pay me?
The message on the other side of this sig is false.
Some time ago, I heard from a high ranking company in IT that recession is for them a reason to get rid of the less performing and less skilled personel.
...
I see the same thing happening in other big companies, where they do not as much cut back on work/research.
On the other hand, they are _not_ going let the opportunity pass by to hire a skilled professional.
I've been in the sector for quite a number of years in Europe and while the big boom is apparently on a slowdown (I believe it is temporarily), I do not see any problem for motivated and really skilled persons to find and keep a job.
What you do see, are that the self-proclaimed experts have a harder time. And let's face it, some years ago, having some rudimentary knowledge about W*rd and Exhell wass sufficient to be an IT consultant in a large consulting firm (I know some of these examples). That this situation is gone can only be good for the reputation of the entire sector (and in the afore mentioned case, for the companies hiring the consultants).
Perhaps the situation in the States is slightly different, but this is one of the reasons I feel critical towards these "professional organisations", in time of crisis, they are the first ones to shout "protectionism". I seemed to remember that "free market" is the best assurance for the largest global wealth,
I could be wrong though, it's not quite my cup of tea.
Genius doesn't work on an assembly line basis. You can't simply say, "Today I will be brilliant."
Not only don't you know/understand the US (& international immigration policy) but you throw statistics left, right and center for every thing else except your erroneous claim that other immigrant categories draw on welfare.
(110,000 of them are most likely going to be directly drawing from the US welfare system)
Not only don't you know what you're talking about you sound scared and suspicious as if you have something to hide.
Oh BTW, many H1-Bs become green card holders and later naturalized citizens. At which point,using your logic, they collect welfare.
Maybe, we should keep the likes of you out.
A cold hearted SOB capitalizing on our warmth is one thing, but adimiting an idiot as a skilled immigrant is another.
As a person who's been in the field for 12 years, and was "replaced" by H11B's from India (who made $50k less), and ALL the compabies I see now won't hire me because I'm too expensive. Go to
projectusa.org
If you're not a Liberal in your 20's, then you have no heart.If you're still a Liberal in your 30's you have no brain.
I would like to know when did these 200K+ got their own US nationalities
I propose that companies give precedence to (n-1)th generation Americans over nth generation Americans! This law should be valid for both American and Non-American companies wether they exist in US or not! Also each one of the "highly educated individuals with C++ and Java language skills" should be given all the perks and salary he, or she, DEMANDS! Its only logical, isnt it?
Voltaire: God is dead.
God: Voltaire is dead!
Actually this all boil down to the fact that too any american themselve who find it too difficult to harness their brain power to perform technical work.
To resolve this, most company should keep their company structure really flat by employing more doers than managers, they should save the money on employing managers and divert those saving to managers that would participate in technical work.
Also since there is a scarce in such work that most people do not intend to do, then its natural to pay more to those who had taken much effort to train themselve up. By then, we will encourage more people to strive and put effort to train themselve up.
If one have to employ H1B worker, then we should ensure that we're hiring top notch knowledge workers that could diseminate positive creativity and not the usual typical know-how workers.
Also companies must ensure a proper system that is able to distinguish the real doers and those who BS too much. This then ensure that capable worker are continually rewarded and serve as model to others.
I guess that idea is a bit strange to the USA.
I have wondered many times if the 36% of the non-USA members in the IEEE is well represented in this institute, this issue highlights the situation.
I have felt many times the advantages for myself (being European) are limited to receiving the publications: the US-salary studies, the insurances only for US-citizens, and many other advantages are not available to me.
I decided recently not to renew my membership until the IEEE, which was (is?) in the beginning an institute for american engineers, acknowledges its new status of worldwide reference and starts thinking to provide a better service to ALL its members, regardless of where they come from.
Competence or excellence is not intrinsic to any nationality. As somebody who considers himself an elite geek I feel significant more affinity to a skilled 'foreigner' than to a mediocre or incompetent of my own nationality/race. Indeed in the past I've recruited Indian contractors to work on my team. They show the same spread as British engineers some are inept, the majority are competent, some are good or great.
In the past I've been offered better paid positions in London and the US with H1B however I declined, the work was boring. I'm motivated by doing interesting/challenging work. I don't want to spend all day doing CRUD, I find it boring and unmotivating. That is why I work on this project (www.kitv.co.uk). AIH earn 30K UKP (~45K USD/EUR), a good salary for a UK provincial Software Engineer, enough to keep me supplied with toys. However that is dwarfed by what I could earn in the London or the USA.
It appears to me that many US IT professional have priced themselves out of the market, it's a economics 101 issue. I'm forced to wonder what motivated these individuals complaining about the H1B issue to be IT Professionals in the first place. It sounds financial to me, the people that respond, "it's a good career/money/opportunity" to the question "why did you choose computing ?" and not "I like to hack/play/mess with computers". They have no a passion for the subject, no geeky-ness, and as a result will only ever be mediocre, at best. In my mind that is the give away clue, they are complaining about their own limitations.
I once heard CmdrTaco, Mandrake and another guy in "Geeks in Space" making some tasteless remarks against programmers from India. It is the usual average geeks insecurity and unwarranted superiority complex that explains this obsession with this topic, making it one of the most discussed topics on /. along with Minor kernel patches, the color of Marcelo Tossati's hair ...
Siebel Systems, Inc?
(OT)They are now featured on fuckedcompany.com
Since my layoff, recruiters and potential employers are all talking about salary cuts--some as large as 50%!--if I'm to have any hope of finding a job. Somehow, I have to cover a $43k set of bills with $24k-34k.
My house is for sale right now for exactly this reason...All the positions I'm looking at are posting up for significantly less than I'm used to getting--and I'm not one of these overpaid six-figure salary people. Even if I get re-employed tomorrow, chances are I can't afford my house, food, and student loans for the (tops) $34,000 being offered as a "competitive" salary. Something has to give, and Uncle Sam isn't in the mood to forgive my college debts just yet.
One recruiter came out and said it like this: While they can't legally REPLACE American's in the same position with an H1-B, what they can do is eliminate the position and create a new one with a different title but essentially the same responsibilities. Unethical as hell, but easy enough to get away with. End result?
Tech workers who made $40-45k last year and got laid off are competing for jobs with guys who will do it for $22,500 just so they can get into the country.
Which leads to this question: Do the benefits to the company engaging in this unethical practice outweigh (dollars only, no moral judgement...yet) the damage done to the economy by the decrease in buying power for Americans (and the H1-B's lack of buying power to start with based on his slave salary?)
When conceived, H1-B was a good idea. At the time, there was a perceived shortage in the marketplace which led to positions that went unfilled due to lack of qualified applicants. Having a project not get finished because you couldn't find somebody to do the work in time (and thus, it can't be sold to make a profit) can kill a company just as fast as paying $200k per year for your developers and $75k for helpdesk people. But that was then.
Now positions are filled before they're announced, if they're even announced. The ones that are getting advertised are for people with 10 years Windows 95 experience, and 20 years of Java. Nowadays, we don't need more tech workers, we honestly (right now) need less.
I'm definitely in favor of a drastic reduction in the number of NEW H1-B visas issued. We don't need any more new high-skilled non-citizens depressing wages and taking jobs that would otherwise go to an out-of-work American. Don't think of it as "protectionism" or "racism", because its neither of those things. Its like a bus. There's a fixed number of seats. Once those seats are full, the driver can't let any more passengers on.
Well, sorry folks, this bus is full. You'll have to wait for the next one.
[/soapbox]
Who did what now?
As you can see from my use of dots and comma, I live in the German speaking part of the big ball. And we have this discussion here too. It is not helpful, it does not solve the problem, it is just a theme in times close before some election.
What is the difference between a person born in a country and a person living there?
There is almost none! Both spend most of their money where they live. Both pay their taxes where they live. So the money they earn stays in that country. Okay some people send money home, but others go for holidays to foreign countries. I see almost no difference.
The only difference is done by under educated people which can be found in higher concentration in the government, in trade unions and the like. And you hear them crying out loud only when the economy goes down.
Sadly the last paragraph is true on both sides of the Atlantic
Here in the uk - this mantra was repeated every day by the CBI and other employers groups. We then put in a minimum wage and ... unemployment and inflation continue to fall. Even the CBI now agrees that they were mistaken.
Sorry.
By this time next year you'll see Australian Holden Monaros re-badged as Ponitiac GTOs for sale in the US, while you'll also see Holden Utes rebadged as El Caminos for sale there too.
All because the US dollar is so high that such imports are more viable than making those cars locally.
Imagine....
Dear Congress, we cannot find honest executives in the whole United States, therefor we request 50,000 H1-B Visa's.....
Hmmm
-- www.globaltics.net
Political discussion for a new world
It's the brave man whose willing to lose Karma for his beliefs.
I do agree with you, USAian, how do you even pronounce that?
Matloff implicitly assumes that there is some fixed number of US jobs and that the US has some say in the matter who gets them. But those programming jobs don't belong to the US. The foreign programmers are not going to take up knitting if they can't work in the US. They will either work for the same company in a different country, or they will end up competing against the US company, having much lower salaries and overhead.
Dear H1B Holder-
Please get out of the US. You are not wanted here. Go back to your own country and quit stealing from honest AMERICANS.
H1B shitbags lie about education and previous experience! I see it all the time in resumes from these foriegn H1B scum.
Send the non-americans home, NOW!
Companies that want to do business in America need to hire REAL AMERICANS, not these H1B liars!
Newsflash: Indians fucking LIE on resumes. Send these liars home now!
You realize, of course, you just made the case for the corporations, don't you?
"Has [being a kidnapped teenage girl, raped repeatedly for months] changed you?" - Katie Couric to Elizabeth Smart
Eventually all programming will be done overseas for cheap anyway. Why fight it. Pick a new carear.
I understand the US policy - I just don't agree with it (or you for that matter).
I just have to wonder about why you want to let so many people in who are going to be on welfare. The 110,000 people that are permitted on Asylum or Refugee status do not have to prove that they are going to work or contribute to society. Family-based immigrants have to be able to prove that their family member is financially able to support them when they immigrate. H1-B holders obviously have jobs and will pay taxes.
The politics of the US immigration policy is too generous in many cases and needs to focus on permitting talented people in (like the typical H1-B visa holders).
Yes many H1-B visa holders do become naturalized but it is not an easy process and often they have to wait in line behind people that are applying from countries that have higher quotas allocated to for refugees, etc.
Otherwise, all you have done is attempted to label and attack me based on your incorrect interpretation of my original post.
You mean, the groceries so cheap that it is almost as cost effective to dine out as it is to prepare your own meals? Here in the Chicagoland area, a home cooked meal comparable to the ones served in restaurants costs $6 - $8 per person. The restaurant charges $8 - $10 per person, and they prepare it for me. So here I am, spending about $100 a week to just barely feed myself, when 10 years ago I could spend $40 a week on groceries and eat like a king. Even if I prepared all of my own meals, I'd still spend $80/week. I spend more money feeding myself than on any other expense in my budget, including transportation, which includes car payments, maintenance, gas, and insurance. Groceries aren't cheap, at least not where I live.
So again US has monopoly on writing good code ?
Programmers around the world aren't running their businesses on brute force (FOR YOUR KIND INFORMATION)
it was too biased of u to say that !!
How can you be an H1B worker if you have your own company? I thought H1Bs had to have a sponsor company and that they could only work for the company that sponsored them?
Anonymous posts are filtered.
Any place where it's still good is going to try to close their borders eventually, as long as their democracy is functional (i.e. it isn't in the U.S., not anymore). Most already have.
That's just an inevitable effect of us 1st world guys living in kind of a utopia while the other 80-90% of the world lives pretty badly on the balance.
While they're busy making our shoes and squabbling over what little clean water is left, thanks to our ancient human survival instincts they're pumping out babies about 1000x faster than we are, and guess what. Each one of them has a dream.
To run for the border.
There is a way to stop it. Lower _all_ the borders. No more passports, no more immigration. Currency market is obviated too. That way, everyone has to share, and the standard of living will gradually equalize. Of course, us rich fuck 'merikans wont be living on the backs of the world's poor any more, but is that such a crime?
Well, we could be called Unitedians, but then other people would whine, "Hey, there are other United Whatever countries out there! Stop hogging the name!"
We could call ourselves Statians, but then other people would whine, "Hey, there are other federalized state based countries out there! Stop hogging the name!"
So to hell with it! We're Americans thru-and-thru. I mean, what else is there in the Americas? Third world? True, and then there are the countries below the border too!
Now watch the foreigners mod me down....
cryonics: gateway to the future? www.cryonet.org
maybe b/c H1Bs and computer industry shills modded me down?
cryonics: gateway to the future? www.cryonet.org
This is what the developing countries have been asking for. You want free movement of goods to dump your products in the whole world. How about free movement of labor? We in 3rd world have got trained manpower. Let us export that. This is what I call unfairness.
those of us with same-sex partners still need to rely on employers to get our partners into the country and keep them here.
So does Boeing pay its employees enough to buy the jets they make? Hmmmmmmmm What about airbus?
Do construction companies pay their employees enough to buy the skyscrapers they build? Hmmmmmm
Mac OS X and Windows XP working side by side to fight back the night.
You remind me of Kevin Cline's character in "A Fish Called Wanda"
How do you go about agreeing with the guy, and then berate him for correcting someone else??? It's obvious to you and me, but it wasn't to the original poster, HENCE the need to correct him with OBVIOUS information. Pretty fucking novel idea, huh?
Secondly, you didn't bother to ask him under what circumstances he thought 2% was reachable. Maybe he was talking theory, or in times of war.
Point is: How the fuck would you know if don't bother asking for people's insight, and instead default to berating anyone who didn't make thier conclusions the same way you did?
"Communism is like having one [local] phone company " - Lenny Bruce
A few nights ago I wanted to synch my Palm Pilot to my Dell laptop via the infra-red port. For some reason it wasn't working. I called Dell's tech support. They have an awesome system. Underneath each Dell computer is a service number that has the entire system's history in it with concerns to repairs/features....etc. So anyways, I get their Indian call center. It was awesome. They knew exactly what the problem was (the port wasn't turned on in the weird Dell bios) and knew how to tell me to turn it on in very simple steps. In addition to that they have email tech support that responded in about 15 hours. They were also very courteous and knowledgeable.
Now I know that that call center probably displaced some American jobs, but it at least allows Dell Computer to maintain high levels of service excellence in addition to high levels of marketplace performance, stock value and marketshare.
Mac OS X and Windows XP working side by side to fight back the night.
If a company is paying a H1B worker less than the going wage for that position, they're violating existing federal laws. If this is a problem, there needs to be enforcement (for which the INS has hardly any budget), not new laws that can be ignored.
IANAL, but I believe multinational corporations can also import workers under visa categories other than H1B?
This is a very uninformed xenophobic rant. If H1B workers work for significantly lower wages than their American counterparts, it's illegal. Also, companies are required to give notice about the terms of hire to unions or other local workers prior to the fact, and at all renewals. Many H1B workers don't come from low-wage countries, but from Europe and Australia. They're hardly going to take a lot of BS from their American employers which already have much worse vacation, medical etc. benefits to offer. Finally, H1B workers aren't completely indentured. If they find another employer willing to sponsor their visa, they can change jobs.
Before the 90s boom, most economists were beginning to give up on the idea of a 4% unemployment rate as realistic. The only time the unemployment rate was anywhere near 2% was during WWII!
Usually your posts seem quite interesting to me, but here you're failing to look outside US borders. There's at least one country in Europe, namely Luxembourg, where the unemployment rate is very near those 2%: 2.6% in 2001. And the same in 2000. Those are official numbers that you can look up through the luxembourgish statistics office.
Most capable people now adays can figure things out for themselves... with occasional guidence.
The attitude in the subject is exactly why they arent given the opportunity - whaaa - my job is too complex for someone to learn...
bs
They can learn it fast and be capable fast. Then befroe you know it they will become experts, but oh ya, it won't happen because we want to use the crutch of foreign workers...
ps-for the others on this board-foreign workers are white too - stop being so quick to label everyone a racist
When it gets down to it - talking trade balances here - once we've brain-drained all our technology into other countries, once things have been evened out, they're making cars in Bolivia and microwaves ovens in Tadzhikistan and selling them here - once our edge in natural resources has been made irrelevant by giant Hong Kong ships and dirigibles that can ship North Dakota all the way to New Zealand for a nickle - once the Invisible Hand has taken all those historical inequities and smeared them out into a broad layer of what a Pakistani brickmaker would consider to be prosperity - y'know what? There's only four thing we do better than anyone else
music
movies
microcode (software)
high-speed pizza delivery
-Snow Crash
Glonoinha the MebiByte Slayer
I've about had enough of seeing my friends go unenployed while people are brought in from over seas to take their jobs.
H1-Bs should also have a 1 year time limit. After one year the person should either become a citizen or lose their visa and have to leave the country.
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
>First, there is always more work to be done.
Probably true. But also true is there are only so many desks in a company where developers can sit, and more importantly there is only so much MONEY a company is able to pay for developers payroll.
Glonoinha the MebiByte Slayer
oops.
Anonymous posts are filtered.
80k?!
I'd be happy to find a 35k job! Quit the hyperbole, real people are trying to find jobs.
Democrats or Republicans. They are both taking us to the same place and they are not afraid of us anymore.
You totally misread my comment.
I agree that the term "tech boom" implies that lots of technical people were needed to accomplish lots of technical work. If that was in fact the case (and I strongly suspect it was, though I wasn't really involved personally), and all these technical people were working tons of overtime because not enough of them could be found to do all the work that needed to be done, then I would agree that it was a tech boom.
However, the post I was responding to painted a different picture. It suggested a situation where all these tech companies simply had tons of money to burn, so they hired all these people at $70k/year to work 1.5 hour days. That isn't a tech boom, it's a bunch of morons throwing money away. In that situation it makes sense that when the Venture Capital ran out, the company would either fold or realize that, "Hey, we could make some of these people work real work days and fire the rest. That would reduce our headcount by like 80%."
My comment was in no way related to the advancement of or value to society of the work done, simply a question of how much work was actually being done compared to time and money thrown away on toys and playtime, looking at it from an employers perspective.
Under capitalism man exploits man. Under communism it's the other way around.
I point out the correct information, but I'm the dumbass?
Well, no one had said anything incorrect, so if you were 'correcting' him, yes it would make you a dumbass.
Then I suppose under more extreme circumstances 2% would be reachable, right?
Yeh, I suppose But I don't think I would ever want to see those 'extreme' circumstances. Inflation would be insane.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
Never mind, I apparently misread the original posters post.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
Ah, ok. I see what you're driving at now. That's a very valid point, too. I think the truth was probably somewhere in the middle. Certainly, there were companies with "free money" to squander because their stock became ultra-valuable overnight.
I don't doubt there were people getting $70K a year to show up for work only when they felt like it. If they could convince an employer they were so valuable, they should get whatever they wanted - then it probably happened.
Still, being in I.T. through the whole thing myself, I saw much more of the opposite happening. People I knew got paid pretty big salaries for their skills, but they still had actual work to do when they accepted a job.
I think in most cases, it wasn't so much a problem of hiring people that weren't really working, just because you had the cash to burn.
I think it was more a matter of overbuilding a computer infrastructure in anticipation of a large (and increasing) flow of customers that didn't pan out. The I.T. guys put in all the hours to build it, but the people never came to use the results.
When they scaled back (or died off), all those I.T. works were out of jobs.
foreign workers are white too - stop being so quick to label everyone a racist
Racism is not always the same as as color prejudice.
Racism is sometimes very close to extreme right-wing nationalism.
Hi!
First, let me apologize for leaping to the conclusion that you are young--very sorry about that. Second, perhaps you might disabuse me of another notion: my sense is that zillions of kids straight out of college got jobs writing CGI/Perl applications--and when the dot-com bust happened, they ended up on the street. Where, one might imagine, it is a buyer's market. It may well be that H-1Bs are part and parcel of the same crowd (he's a kid, and he's here on an H-1B visa). Are you competing in the job marketplace against H-1Bs--or the dot-com dropouts?
Another thought for you: I'm an independent. Sometimes I'll take a fixed-bid job; frequently I'll do a "fixed budget" job. If I'm onsite at the clients inevitably somebody will ask how in the world I can stand the stress of never knowing where my next job will come from. My reply is that the difference between a "permanent" employee and a temp is that the temp knows that he is only on the payroll for the next three months. I'm not just being glib--I've watched lots of people in permanent positions spend chunks of their careers working at the same version level of the same technology. A former client had a wonderful question: does he have five years of experience--or one year of experience five times? Think of the people you know who are maintaining a project they wrote three or four years ago, that are not using the current version of the technology.
My buddy Charlie (who posted a comment in this thread earlier) works for a Major Media Company--well known for its rodent mascot. Charlie has worked for a number of companies in New York City--and he's always been a permanent employee. He's pretty up front: he works with the current version of technology, or he's gone. (I'm about a hundred miles due west of New York City, and I find New Yorkers entertaining--they have this wonderfully blunt way of asserting that kind of thing.)
Even though Charlie's a permanent employee, he effectively approaches his job like a temp--he participates in beta tests, he develops code at home, he volunteers for the pilot projects, he is always looking to try something new. So if/when the bubble bursts and he has to look for a job, he can claim experience with .NET and SQL Server 2000 and Windows XP and all the rest--because he's made the effort to stay current. On the other hand, there's a guy down the hall from him who is still working in VB 3.0--16-bit VB. Who had better be on his knees every morning in fervent prayer that Mickey is still making money, because if he ever has to look for a new job, he is going to have a lousy looking resume.
My point:
Even if you're a "permanent" employee, you only have a job for the next three months. And in this day and age, when "corporate loyalty" means "we'll give you a t-shirt when we need you to attend a rally in 'support' of our executives, right before we fire you" you have to be looking out for your own interests. Which means looking forward to pick the technologies that will be in demand, and thinking about how you can develop those skills.
John
P.S. Moving your family from St. Louis to the New York area might be nuts--but just a thought: DB2 experience is a very valuable thing in the NY Metro area. JM
Go join Bill Gates' and Harris Miller's ITAA.
H1-B = indentured servitude = lower wages for
Americans. What's wrong with fighting that?
The moderation on this thread has been
atrocious. Once again, elitist bullshit
has triumped over reason. Based on "moderation",
the H1-Bers win. Based on the facts, American
workers should have won. Dump H1-B Now!
I'm out of work and have been since 2001. That's when the consulting budgets got cut for my kind of firmware development.
Yes, there are many people that have it hard. Many have to work two jobs to make ends meet. Increasing their pay sounds like a great way to solve that right? Wrong.
If you increase the wages of those earning minimum wage you will find that the companies that employ them will tend to look for ways to get the job done with fewer employees. They're not just going to accept the increase in minimum wage and take a cut in their profit.
One of two things will happen:
They will reduce their workforce. So those that remain will earn more, but you'll have more people unemployed. This will happen if they are in a market that doesn't allow them much room to increase their price due to competition.
If they can, they will increase what they charge to their customers in order to cover the increase in minimum wage. In that case, the buck is passed to all of the economy, creating pressures on inflation. I need not explain the problems caused by inflation.
There is no free lunch. You can't just raise minimum wage and smile that you've solved the problem. Someone has to pay for it. It will either be minimum wage employees that are thrown out of work or it will be the entire economy in increased pressure on inflation.
the easiest jobs pay the most and the hardest sometimes pay the least,
That depends on what you define as "easy." If you mean that those that are educated and have a vast amount of technical experience but all they do is sit in the office and write programs and go to meetings while coal miners are stuck 250 feet under the ground, sure.
In this culture and economy, however, it's not the physical effort or risk you take that increases your salary--it is your knowledge. That's why we have the expression "It ain't rocket science" instead of "It ain't coal mining."
pay the ceo less money and suddenly you can raise the wages of your workers.
I agree many (not all) CEOs are paid too much. That said, you'd be surprised how LITTLE you could increase all the employee's salaries by taking it from the high-paid executives. That's the same logic whereby many liberals say, "Hey, let's just take the wealth of the richest 1000 people in the country." It turns out that ends up being enough to run the government for like a month or two. Or if you distributed Bill Gates' WORTH (not all of it is cash, not by a longshot) to every American, each American would only get about $175.
In the end, the best way to earn more money is to better yourself. If you're working at McDonald's at minimum wage and you're not studying, be it in high school or college, then you've chosen the easy, low-income route. Don't cry to the government to give you raises when you didn't choose to finish your education.
A UC Davis professor went screaming into congress
.
.
, .
.
over his findings that approx. 22 million was
paid by Sun, Micro$oft, Ci$co, Or-suckle and
several other to "Fluff" the numbers of IT
workers needed .
This came to a vote before congress, the Dem's
and the Repub's all voted for the bill
In fact the bill to double the H1-b's per year
was voted 98-1, one of the most unanimous votes
in the history of our county, only a handful
of other issues like declaring WWII got so
high a percentage .
As to the foreign workers who want to come here
and work and send as much home as they can, I
have but one questions for you ???
How are americans treated in your country that
visit, that flirt with your women, that want
to buy things, and setup businesses and take
jobs and sales from companies there ???
In some it is not allowed at all, period
Are they shown any animosity, any prejudice,
are they EVER treated poorly ???
Nary an unkind word eh ???
The US economy is in decline, if the vast
majority of technical labor drops to less
than what Union fork lift drivers make
what's the point . Tech jobs will become
crap jobs, no one will want them, and
bankrupties will drive the country into a
self fulfilling spiral all for a few Execs
that like to do things like PUMP and DUMP
on their stock options and lie on their SEC
filings
As to how we ended up this way, the corrupt
blood sucking politician/lawyers that have
not a care for their constituients
In a democracy it is supposed to be by the ppl
for the ppl, not what we have at present .
I really doubt the "US" programmers or their
parents would be pleased to find out that
their Congressman voted to put their children
out of work .
When you have ppl in charge that are EASILY
bought off, and are hand picked by party
members for the fine thread count of their
marionette strings for using them like cash
dancing puppets, what do you expect ??
Ex-MislTech
IT worker In Guantanamo Bay !
google "32 trillion offshore needs IRS attention"
If you increase the wages of those earning minimum wage you will find that the companies that employ them will tend to look for ways to get the job done with fewer employees. They're not just going to accept the increase in minimum wage and take a cut in their profit. .
They are already doing that. so hows raising the minimum wage going to change this? companies already are trying to replace us with machines and workers from other countries to save money.
One of two things will happen:
# They will reduce their workforce. So those that remain will earn more, but you'll have more people unemployed. This will happen if they are in a market that doesn't allow them much room to increase their price due to competition.
# If they can, they will increase what they charge to their customers in order to cover the increase in minimum wage. In that case, the buck is passed to all of the economy, creating pressures on inflation. I need not explain the problems caused by inflation.
Would you rather luxury items cost more, or would you prefer to not even be able to pay your rent? Let the prices for things go up, I dont care, I'm trying to survive not worry about prices of things like computers, or a mc donalds hamburger, because if mc donalds raises the prices they'll simply be replaced by smaller more competitive companies.
That depends on what you define as "easy." If you mean that those that are educated and have a vast amount of technical experience but all they do is sit in the office and write programs and go to meetings while coal miners are stuck 250 feet under the ground, sure. No thats comparing the working class with the working class, programmers are no diffrent than coal miners, I'm talking about management, CEOS, those guys dont write programs, all they do is go to meetings and boss people around, and all it took for them to get where they are, is writing a business plan and knowing the right people in order to get capital. Its not hard work to be bill gates or even an upper level manager.
I agree many (not all) CEOs are paid too much. That said, you'd be surprised how LITTLE you could increase all the employee's salaries by taking it from the high-paid executives. That's the same logic whereby many liberals say, "Hey, let's just take the wealth of the richest 1000 people in the country." It turns out that ends up being enough to run the government for like a month or two. Or if you distributed Bill Gates' WORTH (not all of it is cash, not by a longshot) to every American, each American would only get about $175.
So you are a conservative? You talk about what liberals say, but the whole working class will say the same thing, not just the liberals but even conservatives, poor people demand fair wages because its a class issue, not a political issue. Not all conservatives are rich. If you limit the amount of money a CEO can make, you'd have enough money to raise the minimum wage, We arent talking about running the government here. We arent talking about taking 100 percent of all the wealth from the richest people, we are talking about fair wages. And fair treatment of all classes. Currently, the top 1000 richest people have all the advantages of society, America is such a great place to these people because they have everything! I'm not asking for them to give all their money away, What I'm saying is everyone should be able to survive, its cruel for a person who works hard, to be barely surviving, not be able to afford healthcare, have kids which dont even have the chance to get educated due to the high costs of private schools and lack of government funding of public schools (20 billion for public schools yet 350 billion for the military is alittle bit off balance if you ask me)
What we need for america to work, and for all the classes to get along, is for each class to have the same basic chance at success, everyone has a right to a good education, everyone should have healthcare, everyone should be able to retire and we know the 401k and stock market gamble retirement just cant work due to dishonesty.
You mention distributing bill gates worth, thats a socialist concept, of course its done in the wrong way, you dont do something stupid, like throw money into the hands of the people, you tax the rich in order to give the poor the oppurtunity to be rich, or else the rich will stay rich, and the poor will have no chance at ever being anything but poor, giving them a hopeless exsistance, creating class warfare. This kinda thing is what happened to blacks in the USA, and this is why there was the civil rights movement, fair treatment is required, its not optional but REQUIRED, this means the wages should be fair, everyone should be able to get a good education, money shouldnt determine this, everyone should be able to get medical care.
If the worlds richest companies were forced to pay taxes (currently they avoid paying taxes) the tax money should NOT and WOULD not be given directly to the people, it would be used to fund the school system, healthcare system, to help the workers who actually build these companies.
The majority of the people working for Microsoft, they want to be able to retire, they WANT social security, they WANT healthcare, they WANT good public schools, they dont want to be forced to rely on microsofts stock which tells them if they can or cant retire, they do not want to trust bill gates when it comes to their life savings.
#
In the end, the best way to earn more money is to better yourself. If you're working at McDonald's at minimum wage and you're not studying, be it in high school or college, then you've chosen the easy, low-income route. Don't cry to the government to give you raises when you didn't choose to finish your education.
You just dont get it, its not currently a fair route. A rich kid, who may be less intelligent, but who has gone to private schools and has a better education, a kid who does not have to worry about bills, survival, or the struggle, can focus on being successful and moving up the ladder from their birth, they'll have their parents pay for them to go to harvard, where they can continue to gather knowledge without worryinng about how to pay for it all, you see, money buys success for alot of people. People who dont have money have to work twice as hard to be successful, if you didnt get a proper education, its up to you to educate yourself up to the level required and you can forget about going to harvard, community college for you, you have to slowly work your way to transfering to a good college. Lets not forget that all during this time, you wont have rich parents paying for you, you'll have to work full time while getting your education, this means you wont be able to focus 100 percent like a person who doesnt have to worry about bills, survival, rent, food, etc, you cannot focus 100 percent on being successful, if you are focusing 50 percent on survival.
Do the math, and you'll see why its much harder for a poor person to be successful and the goal should be to make it so no matter how much money you have, everyone has an equal chance.
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
> It's a global market, folks - if you want to keep > your jobs and their 80K salaries, you've got to > be better at something than your international > competition, just like a steel manufacturer or > anybody else who competes in the global economy.
In order for this principle to be fair, it has to be consistent. So let's apply it to everyone... So let's start by replacing the CEOs and the Boards of Directors of these firms with cheaper H1B visa labor. It's a global market, right?
From my own personal experience, lowering your salary to entry-level won't work either. Hiring managers will become deeply suspicious of your qualifications. It's like offering someone a brand-new Lexus for only $100... "What's wrong with it?"