In addition they don't really say that they are running out of bandwidth, so I'm not sure I see where the problem is.
They're not... they're running out of shareholder satisfaction. Their customers are demanding more capacity, and their shareholders are demanding more money now. The two are diametrically opposed, with the ISP squarely in the middle. Either we adjust our expectations downward, or the shareholders do.
You're making the assumption that the government (any government) will bother with anything complex or intelligent (since lawmakers are rarely either, it seems.) All they'll do is decide what a "normal" Internet user should be allowed to do, and kick-off/arrest/imprison anyone that tries to do anything they don't think is acceptable. So that would include email (forced through the ISP's mail server, so that it can be properly monitored and recorded), browsing (only through government-approved ports and using government-approved protocols), VoIP (only if one's ISP offers such a service, so that it can be properly monitored and recorded) and maybe FTP. Then just pass a law which says that no-one can use any protocol or Internet-aware application without having prior approval granted by some "Bureau/Ministry of Protocol Management".
Problem solved, at least to the bureaucratic mind. And it would work, too, for the most part, if they made the penalties for non-compliance heinous enough.
Sure they can, and in a way that would make government types drool. All they have to do is set up a government-maintained white list of all "legitimate" torrent trackers, and force ISPs to block access to any tracker not on the list. Of course, anyone with enough money/influence will be able to buy himself onto that list, which is why I said officials will like the idea. Plenty of opportunity for more bribes.
They aren't now. As a data service provider, they aren't a common carrier. They just don't want the costs associated with regulatory burden of that status, and especially don't want the Feds dictating Quality of Service standards.
Unbelievable. Here's someone trying to compare, say, an illegally downloaded Madonna tune to, for example, the technology used to build a solid fuel booster, or a Space Shuttle fuel pump. I might add that you've a remarkably uninformed and downright dangerous attitude regarding industrial and military secrets. You're naivete is almost endearing, but I'm really glad you're not in charge of security at any important government facility.
China just aquired a copy so they didn't have to waste resources recreating the same information that had already been created by someone.
That "someone" was the citizens of the United States. We spent an incredible amount of money developing our space program and its military applications (the two are really inextricable.) We spent it so that we would have more on the ball than anyone else: if China (or anyone else) wants to be equal to us in that regard, let them spend their own money. Our government does not have the right to give that data away, nor does it have the right to treat it so casually that anyone that wants it can take it. That's irresponsible to a criminal degree, and I'm having a hard time accepting the fact that, well... we're just accepting it. There should be long prison terms involved here. On the other hand, if your attitude is prevalent, I can see why nobody cares. Mark my words, the day will come when you will care.
See, when it comes to information about hard-won military technology and strategic assets, copying does equal stealing... this is not a goddamn copyright issue! Actually, in that case, such copying can mean that people die. Honestly, what are you smoking? You need to educate yourself on the history of warfare, and more importantly what is required to maintain peace. Giving your enemies everything you've learned about how to defend yourself is just bloody stupid! It's also a good way to get you and yours killed, or enslaved.
What those "copies" do represent is billions, if not trillions, of hard-earned U.S. dollars, money that was spent to maintain military superiority over our enemies, not mere parity. Face it, all through the ages the societies least likely to suffer armed attack have been the ones that carried the biggest stick, which had the greatest military advantage over any potential enemies. Unless you are completely insane you don't attack a country when you know it will casually blow you to bits in return. Consequently, we don't want the Chinese to be merely equal to us... we want them to be behind, and as far behind as possible (but they're coming up fast.) That's pretty basic strategy when it comes to being a superpower, and facing a foreign power that wants to take from you what you've built.
You may not realize it, or are maybe emotionally unequipped to accept it, but an eventual armed conflict with China is far from unlikely. They have the manpower advantage, they're a totalitarian government answerable only to itself... the only possible way we can survive such an exchange is to maintain industrial and technological superiority. Keep in mind, though, that we've already lost the first, and are rapidly losing the second. I see no reason to accelerate the process.
Furthermore, as an American citizen whose earnings were taxed and spent to acquire that knowledge and technology, I not only bitterly resent it when it's freely given away to hostile countries, but consider it no less than treason. Those responsible should be lined up in front of a military firing squad and shot dead. Prison is way too good for them.
That's arguably the stupidest thing I've heard all week. Geez, America-bashing has reached new lows today. Look, business is business, my friend. Saying "our dollars aren't worth that much" doesn't mean squat. China is still happily taking those dollars, and you can bet your bottom dollar that any or all of the countries the GP mentioned would be happy to as well. The difference is, we'd be helping to make friends in the world, not feed the maw of a monster that will eventually devour us all.
No, actually we don't, and yes, China is. One of many, as it happens, but they're about the biggest threat we have to our sovereignty at the moment (we're way too dependent upon China, which means we are neither a free nor an independent nation.) Hell, they're the biggest threat we have to just being able to clothe ourselves and keep the lights on.
Now, our government may need enemies in order to justify increasing levels of control over the U.S. population, but to make a sweeping statement that "Americans just need AN ENEMY" is ridiculous, and just a tad bigoted.
About how they've, back in the '80s, sent a pilot to USSR to steal this super-secret new airplane and fly it to US.
This thing was like... WHOA! SUPERFAST!
Yeah, and the cool thing is the tech ended up being used in a Web browser!
One of the better Slashdot analyses I've read on the subject, unnerving though it is. But you're right... our government is way too accessible to foreign and corporate influence at all levels. How to correct what has become nothing less than institutionalized corruption is beyond me.
While your signature already indicates your bias, might I ask you if you had considered the idea that Americans are being shut out simply because they don't work as hard as some of these Chinese students?
My signature indicates nothing relevant to this thread. The fact that you think so means you misunderstood the sig. I'm not going to explain it to you.
No, I think you've closed your mind to the bigger picture, and that is this: China looks at the U.S. as the most concentrated storehouse of scientific and technical skill on the planet, knowledge which they are in the process of transferring to themselves. You seem to think that this flood of students is simply happening "because". It's not... this is an orchestrated bleeding dry of everything that our Universities have to offer. Eventually they'll pass us up... but the question still raises it's ugly head: why are we allowing this to happen in the first place?
There's no benefit to us to train a hostile, competitive power.
Read my other post in this thread. I'm not blaming China for anything: they're doing what every self-serving totalitarian state since the beginning of civilization has done... screw everyone else and profit by their loss. Why this is not obvious to more people is a cause for some concern.
So, I'm blaming us for letting it happen, but I would also hope that people would realize that China is not a friendly nation. They are out for themselves, and fundamentally don't grasp the concept of a trading partner: they use their industry and their economy as a weapon (and it's not being used against the U.S. only, Europe is a target as well.) We aren't going to take steps to protect ourselves from them until we wake up and realize what is really going on. It's obvious to me: I've been working in industrial technology for the better part of thirty years, I've seen the devastation of our manufacturing sector firsthand. I saw what was happening back in the seventies, and I'm sad to say our government did it's level best to encourage it.
It amazes me the number of different levels that the American citizen has been sold out by his government and the U.S. private sector, and how little he realizes it. Fact is, the United States is running on inertia now: we're living on our capital not our operating income. That is a recipe for economic disaster.
Enough with this "fairness" crap. There's no hypocrisy here whatsoever: everybody tries to steal from everyone else, even allies (maybe especially allies.) Was the Cold War "fair"? Like it not, we're in another Cold War right now, with China. So this isn't about the Chinese being bad guys for stealing from us, or us being bad guys for stealing from anyone else. That is entirely expected behavior on all sides, so forget about any ideas you have that we're somehow "wrong" because we spied on somebody. Please. Your sense of fairness is misplaced.
This is about the people that we pay to keep our investments in military technology secure having failed miserably. Personally I'm not mad at the Chinese, like I said, we know this is one of their objectives. I'm torqued off at our government's "security professionals" falling asleep at the wheel once again.
Nonsense. Nobody says that they have to copy the design intact. Whatever problems the Shuttle may be as a complete system, the fact is that there's decades of useful R&D in the underlying technologies that make it work, and that's incredibly valuable stuff any foreign power wanting a leg up into space. Hell, the materials science alone would be worthwhile. The software, too, while it runs on archaic S360 equipment is also pretty remarkable for what it does, and you can bet your bottom dollar the Chinese would love to get their hands on it. Any step we took, any research we did, and knowledge we have that advances the Chinese space development timetable is worth keeping to ourselves.
Seriously. I suggest you do some research on what's been going on there, for some time now. For example, a Ph.D. I know was talking about the materials science department at his school. It was flooded with Chinese students, the Dean was Chinese (a Chinese national himself, not a U.S. citizen) who would take months-long sabbaticals to China order to recruit more students for his department. They squeezed all the other students (American as well as from other countries) out. Arrogant about it too, he was telling me: it was their department, basically. He was one of the few U.S. citizens left in that particular graduate program, and this was some years ago. Others tried to get in, but there weren't enough positions left... the Chinese had filled them all.
They're educating themselves to advance their nation's interests, and their doing at our expense. This is happening all over, so yes, I think "pillage" is a good word. We put limits on legal immigration from different countries, with only so many allowed per year from each. That's not unusual among nations, everyone places controls on immigration. However, I think we should start doing the same thing for foreign students, especially from China since they're abusing the system. At the very least, they should only be allowed to study here if they aren't displacing U.S. citizens. Face it, the Chinese are putting their country first: I have no problem with that. However, we should start doing the same if we want to have a country.
Nah... you only need engineers when you're planning on building and manufacturing things. We're a "service economy" now, haven't you heard. Of course, to some that's pretty much synonymous with "third world economy".
Um... perhaps that's because they're the ones doing it. I mean, that's what enemies do. I hope you don't consider China to be a U.S. ally, because they're not and never will be so long as their government is what it is. They don't even qualify as neutral, given the effect they're having on our economy and their ongoing pillage of the U.S. economy and education system.
Besides, I'd be surprised if we aren't doing the same thing to China, at least I'd hope we are. It's a bit more difficult in our case, since we don't have tens of thousands of American engineers and students flooding Chinese companies and schools.
One of the most disappointing things about America the Brave, the Beautiful, is the perverse revisionist history that its patriotism requires.
Let ye who is without sin cast the first stone, and all that.
To the victors go the spoils, and better yet, they get to write the histories. That's the way it has always been, and is the way it will always be. One of the most disappointing things I notice about people in other countries (yes, especially Europeans of various stripes) is the fundamental hypocrisy typified by your comment. Hold us to a higher standard if you like, put us on some kind of worthless pedestal. Just remember that we never asked you to, never claimed to be better than you (even though we often acted better than you) and don't expect us to feel sorry for you when you finally realize the truth. Deal with it. We won't lose any sleep over your discomfiture, believe me. Furthermore, much of Europe's history has been bloodier than ours (you call Bush a tyrant, but frankly Europe has it all over the U.S. in the tyrant department, you guys are true experts at breeding warmongering headcases.) Deal with that too, when you grow up enough to turn that critical eye upon yourself.
Keep in mind, also, that much of what has happened to America since the end of World War II can be directly traced to Europe's inability to keep the lid on, to manage it's own affairs sufficiently well that a psychopathic asshole like Hitler could be kept in check. Try to minimize America's role in that conflict as much as you want (speaking of perverse revisionist history) but the reality is that the United States, its people, and its political system took a big hit from our involvement. Frankly, looking at how things turned out since them, I'm starting to believe that our earlier isolationist policies weren't such a bad idea. That war cost us, on so many levels, and we're still paying for it... in spades.
Think of this also: much as you dislike the United States' current policies, there's much worse than us loose in the world. Take China, for example: that is not a friendly nation, it's out for blood. Don't count Russia out yet either, as militaristic totalitarian states go. So, when the United States' "empire" has fallen, when our military has pulled back to our shores, you'd best look to your own defense because we won't be there this time around.
If they're in the streets protesting, they're not exactly anonymous, are they? I have to admit, they've got balls: the Church of Scientology plays rough.
Slashdot Mirror
In addition they don't really say that they are running out of bandwidth, so I'm not sure I see where the problem is.
... they're running out of shareholder satisfaction. Their customers are demanding more capacity, and their shareholders are demanding more money now. The two are diametrically opposed, with the ISP squarely in the middle. Either we adjust our expectations downward, or the shareholders do.
They're not
Who is the most like to get what he wants?
No question, there'd be a sudden sharp spike in sales of anti-nausea medication.
You're making the assumption that the government (any government) will bother with anything complex or intelligent (since lawmakers are rarely either, it seems.) All they'll do is decide what a "normal" Internet user should be allowed to do, and kick-off/arrest/imprison anyone that tries to do anything they don't think is acceptable. So that would include email (forced through the ISP's mail server, so that it can be properly monitored and recorded), browsing (only through government-approved ports and using government-approved protocols), VoIP (only if one's ISP offers such a service, so that it can be properly monitored and recorded) and maybe FTP. Then just pass a law which says that no-one can use any protocol or Internet-aware application without having prior approval granted by some "Bureau/Ministry of Protocol Management".
Problem solved, at least to the bureaucratic mind. And it would work, too, for the most part, if they made the penalties for non-compliance heinous enough.
Sure they can, and in a way that would make government types drool. All they have to do is set up a government-maintained white list of all "legitimate" torrent trackers, and force ISPs to block access to any tracker not on the list. Of course, anyone with enough money/influence will be able to buy himself onto that list, which is why I said officials will like the idea. Plenty of opportunity for more bribes.
Indeed ... Darl "Jason" McBride, at your service.
an "Internet Cop" exactly. I'd say Comcast has become more of an Internet Roadblock than anything else.
They aren't now. As a data service provider, they aren't a common carrier. They just don't want the costs associated with regulatory burden of that status, and especially don't want the Feds dictating Quality of Service standards.
Canon claims this will help with copyright infringement of photos online.
At best this will just encourage another RIAA-like lawsuit mill. Ultimately, I don't really see the benefit.
Poor Ted Kennedy
I wouldn't call Ted Kennedy "poor", exactly.
All the chinese did was copy the information.
... we're just accepting it. There should be long prison terms involved here. On the other hand, if your attitude is prevalent, I can see why nobody cares. Mark my words, the day will come when you will care.
... this is not a goddamn copyright issue! Actually, in that case, such copying can mean that people die. Honestly, what are you smoking? You need to educate yourself on the history of warfare, and more importantly what is required to maintain peace. Giving your enemies everything you've learned about how to defend yourself is just bloody stupid! It's also a good way to get you and yours killed, or enslaved.
... we want them to be behind, and as far behind as possible (but they're coming up fast.) That's pretty basic strategy when it comes to being a superpower, and facing a foreign power that wants to take from you what you've built.
... the only possible way we can survive such an exchange is to maintain industrial and technological superiority. Keep in mind, though, that we've already lost the first, and are rapidly losing the second. I see no reason to accelerate the process.
Unbelievable. Here's someone trying to compare, say, an illegally downloaded Madonna tune to, for example, the technology used to build a solid fuel booster, or a Space Shuttle fuel pump. I might add that you've a remarkably uninformed and downright dangerous attitude regarding industrial and military secrets. You're naivete is almost endearing, but I'm really glad you're not in charge of security at any important government facility.
China just aquired a copy so they didn't have to waste resources recreating the same information that had already been created by someone.
That "someone" was the citizens of the United States. We spent an incredible amount of money developing our space program and its military applications (the two are really inextricable.) We spent it so that we would have more on the ball than anyone else: if China (or anyone else) wants to be equal to us in that regard, let them spend their own money. Our government does not have the right to give that data away, nor does it have the right to treat it so casually that anyone that wants it can take it. That's irresponsible to a criminal degree, and I'm having a hard time accepting the fact that, well
See, when it comes to information about hard-won military technology and strategic assets, copying does equal stealing
What those "copies" do represent is billions, if not trillions, of hard-earned U.S. dollars, money that was spent to maintain military superiority over our enemies, not mere parity. Face it, all through the ages the societies least likely to suffer armed attack have been the ones that carried the biggest stick, which had the greatest military advantage over any potential enemies. Unless you are completely insane you don't attack a country when you know it will casually blow you to bits in return. Consequently, we don't want the Chinese to be merely equal to us
You may not realize it, or are maybe emotionally unequipped to accept it, but an eventual armed conflict with China is far from unlikely. They have the manpower advantage, they're a totalitarian government answerable only to itself
Furthermore, as an American citizen whose earnings were taxed and spent to acquire that knowledge and technology, I not only bitterly resent it when it's freely given away to hostile countries, but consider it no less than treason. Those responsible should be lined up in front of a military firing squad and shot dead. Prison is way too good for them.
That's arguably the stupidest thing I've heard all week. Geez, America-bashing has reached new lows today. Look, business is business, my friend. Saying "our dollars aren't worth that much" doesn't mean squat. China is still happily taking those dollars, and you can bet your bottom dollar that any or all of the countries the GP mentioned would be happy to as well. The difference is, we'd be helping to make friends in the world, not feed the maw of a monster that will eventually devour us all.
Is that like "differently abled"?
No, actually we don't, and yes, China is. One of many, as it happens, but they're about the biggest threat we have to our sovereignty at the moment (we're way too dependent upon China, which means we are neither a free nor an independent nation.) Hell, they're the biggest threat we have to just being able to clothe ourselves and keep the lights on.
Now, our government may need enemies in order to justify increasing levels of control over the U.S. population, but to make a sweeping statement that "Americans just need AN ENEMY" is ridiculous, and just a tad bigoted.
Keep trying for that +5 Insightful, though.
About how they've, back in the '80s, sent a pilot to USSR to steal this super-secret new airplane and fly it to US. This thing was like... WHOA! SUPERFAST!
Yeah, and the cool thing is the tech ended up being used in a Web browser!
One of the better Slashdot analyses I've read on the subject, unnerving though it is. But you're right ... our government is way too accessible to foreign and corporate influence at all levels. How to correct what has become nothing less than institutionalized corruption is beyond me.
While your signature already indicates your bias, might I ask you if you had considered the idea that Americans are being shut out simply because they don't work as hard as some of these Chinese students?
... this is an orchestrated bleeding dry of everything that our Universities have to offer. Eventually they'll pass us up ... but the question still raises it's ugly head: why are we allowing this to happen in the first place?
My signature indicates nothing relevant to this thread. The fact that you think so means you misunderstood the sig. I'm not going to explain it to you.
No, I think you've closed your mind to the bigger picture, and that is this: China looks at the U.S. as the most concentrated storehouse of scientific and technical skill on the planet, knowledge which they are in the process of transferring to themselves. You seem to think that this flood of students is simply happening "because". It's not
There's no benefit to us to train a hostile, competitive power.
Read my other post in this thread. I'm not blaming China for anything: they're doing what every self-serving totalitarian state since the beginning of civilization has done ... screw everyone else and profit by their loss. Why this is not obvious to more people is a cause for some concern.
So, I'm blaming us for letting it happen, but I would also hope that people would realize that China is not a friendly nation. They are out for themselves, and fundamentally don't grasp the concept of a trading partner: they use their industry and their economy as a weapon (and it's not being used against the U.S. only, Europe is a target as well.) We aren't going to take steps to protect ourselves from them until we wake up and realize what is really going on. It's obvious to me: I've been working in industrial technology for the better part of thirty years, I've seen the devastation of our manufacturing sector firsthand. I saw what was happening back in the seventies, and I'm sad to say our government did it's level best to encourage it.
It amazes me the number of different levels that the American citizen has been sold out by his government and the U.S. private sector, and how little he realizes it. Fact is, the United States is running on inertia now: we're living on our capital not our operating income. That is a recipe for economic disaster.
Enough with this "fairness" crap. There's no hypocrisy here whatsoever: everybody tries to steal from everyone else, even allies (maybe especially allies.) Was the Cold War "fair"? Like it not, we're in another Cold War right now, with China. So this isn't about the Chinese being bad guys for stealing from us, or us being bad guys for stealing from anyone else. That is entirely expected behavior on all sides, so forget about any ideas you have that we're somehow "wrong" because we spied on somebody. Please. Your sense of fairness is misplaced.
This is about the people that we pay to keep our investments in military technology secure having failed miserably. Personally I'm not mad at the Chinese, like I said, we know this is one of their objectives. I'm torqued off at our government's "security professionals" falling asleep at the wheel once again.
Nonsense. Nobody says that they have to copy the design intact. Whatever problems the Shuttle may be as a complete system, the fact is that there's decades of useful R&D in the underlying technologies that make it work, and that's incredibly valuable stuff any foreign power wanting a leg up into space. Hell, the materials science alone would be worthwhile. The software, too, while it runs on archaic S360 equipment is also pretty remarkable for what it does, and you can bet your bottom dollar the Chinese would love to get their hands on it. Any step we took, any research we did, and knowledge we have that advances the Chinese space development timetable is worth keeping to ourselves.
Never let the enemy have anything for free.
Seriously. I suggest you do some research on what's been going on there, for some time now. For example, a Ph.D. I know was talking about the materials science department at his school. It was flooded with Chinese students, the Dean was Chinese (a Chinese national himself, not a U.S. citizen) who would take months-long sabbaticals to China order to recruit more students for his department. They squeezed all the other students (American as well as from other countries) out. Arrogant about it too, he was telling me: it was their department, basically. He was one of the few U.S. citizens left in that particular graduate program, and this was some years ago. Others tried to get in, but there weren't enough positions left ... the Chinese had filled them all.
They're educating themselves to advance their nation's interests, and their doing at our expense. This is happening all over, so yes, I think "pillage" is a good word. We put limits on legal immigration from different countries, with only so many allowed per year from each. That's not unusual among nations, everyone places controls on immigration. However, I think we should start doing the same thing for foreign students, especially from China since they're abusing the system. At the very least, they should only be allowed to study here if they aren't displacing U.S. citizens. Face it, the Chinese are putting their country first: I have no problem with that. However, we should start doing the same if we want to have a country.
Nah ... you only need engineers when you're planning on building and manufacturing things. We're a "service economy" now, haven't you heard. Of course, to some that's pretty much synonymous with "third world economy".
Just give it time. We'll get there.
Oh, I got the anonymous coward reference. It's just that these guys are taking on one of the most vicious modern cults.
Um ... perhaps that's because they're the ones doing it. I mean, that's what enemies do. I hope you don't consider China to be a U.S. ally, because they're not and never will be so long as their government is what it is. They don't even qualify as neutral, given the effect they're having on our economy and their ongoing pillage of the U.S. economy and education system.
Besides, I'd be surprised if we aren't doing the same thing to China, at least I'd hope we are. It's a bit more difficult in our case, since we don't have tens of thousands of American engineers and students flooding Chinese companies and schools.
One of the most disappointing things about America the Brave, the Beautiful, is the perverse revisionist history that its patriotism requires.
... in spades.
Let ye who is without sin cast the first stone, and all that.
To the victors go the spoils, and better yet, they get to write the histories. That's the way it has always been, and is the way it will always be. One of the most disappointing things I notice about people in other countries (yes, especially Europeans of various stripes) is the fundamental hypocrisy typified by your comment. Hold us to a higher standard if you like, put us on some kind of worthless pedestal. Just remember that we never asked you to, never claimed to be better than you (even though we often acted better than you) and don't expect us to feel sorry for you when you finally realize the truth. Deal with it. We won't lose any sleep over your discomfiture, believe me. Furthermore, much of Europe's history has been bloodier than ours (you call Bush a tyrant, but frankly Europe has it all over the U.S. in the tyrant department, you guys are true experts at breeding warmongering headcases.) Deal with that too, when you grow up enough to turn that critical eye upon yourself.
Keep in mind, also, that much of what has happened to America since the end of World War II can be directly traced to Europe's inability to keep the lid on, to manage it's own affairs sufficiently well that a psychopathic asshole like Hitler could be kept in check. Try to minimize America's role in that conflict as much as you want (speaking of perverse revisionist history) but the reality is that the United States, its people, and its political system took a big hit from our involvement. Frankly, looking at how things turned out since them, I'm starting to believe that our earlier isolationist policies weren't such a bad idea. That war cost us, on so many levels, and we're still paying for it
Think of this also: much as you dislike the United States' current policies, there's much worse than us loose in the world. Take China, for example: that is not a friendly nation, it's out for blood. Don't count Russia out yet either, as militaristic totalitarian states go. So, when the United States' "empire" has fallen, when our military has pulled back to our shores, you'd best look to your own defense because we won't be there this time around.
If they're in the streets protesting, they're not exactly anonymous, are they? I have to admit, they've got balls: the Church of Scientology plays rough.