Slashdot Mirror


Canon Files For DSLR Iris Registration Patent

An anonymous reader writes "Canon has filed for a patent for using iris watermarking (as in the iris of your eye) to take photographer's copyright protection to the next level. You set up the camera to capture an image of your eye through the viewfinder. Once captured, this biological reference is embedded as metadata into every photo you take. Canon claims this will help with copyright infringement of photos online."

273 comments

  1. uh by legoman666 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    remove the meta data?

    1. Re:uh by fonik · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I'm guessing they'll use some kind of watermarking. But, do you really want every photo you take to be unambiguously traced back to you? On one hand, photos you take can be traced back to you. On the other hand, the watermarking or metadata could probably be removed by a third party. It seems lose-lose for the camera owner.

    2. Re:uh by geekoid · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The more confident people are in there little tracking toys, the easier it is to get away with things.

      I think it's a waste of effort, but then anyone who wants credit to them this will be a feature.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    3. Re:uh by fireman+sam · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Or worse. Your camera gets stolen and is used to photograph illegal activities. The images are then posted on the net with your watermark on them. Cops arrive at your door and your life is history.

      --
      it is only after a long journey that you know the strength of the horse.
    4. Re:uh by Idiot+with+a+gun · · Score: 2, Informative

      If you want the images watermarked with your iris, you have to verify it's you (as in, put your eye to the viewfinder). Apparently the watermarking can be done later in bulk, to avoid slowing down the camera's performance in the field.

    5. Re:uh by timmarhy · · Score: 0

      err, if you don't take the photo it won't be your iris in the water mark. jump the gun much?

      --
      If you mod me down, I will become more powerful than you can imagine....
    6. Re:uh by icydog · · Score: 1

      On one hand, photos you take can be traced back to you. On the other hand, the watermarking or metadata could probably be removed by a third party.

      Luckily, though, only one of the above can be true, since if you can remove or alter the watermark then it's not foolproof and can't be unambiguously traced to you.

    7. Re:uh by fredklein · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Um, you fail.

      As a result of the foregoing, biological information indicative of a photographer need not be acquired every time an image is taken and, hence, processing executed by the imaging apparatus is not subjected to a load in terms of the sequence of photography.

    8. Re:uh by dgatwood · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Yeah, but as soon as the patent describes the technique publicly, it would be possible to extract the metadata block from someone else's photos, use the same technique with that data, and extort money from someone, e.g. "Don't want these photos of kiddie porn signed with your iris? Put ten million dollars in non-consecutive unmarked bills in a brown paper bag under the mailbox at 5th and Rochester."

      Am I missing something?

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    9. Re:uh by Idiot+with+a+gun · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Now that I think about it, that's a good point. There are ways to hide watermarks, and make them difficult to find/remove, but they tend to degrade signal/noise ratios (not good for a camera, at least of professional quality. Most pocket cameras I know have plenty of noise to hide the watermark in), and it'd be a fairly CPU intensive process inserting it. So, you have a point there.

    10. Re:uh by AmigaMMC · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Maybe you don't, but as a pro photographer I do want to be able to track every photo that I think belongs to me. Do you really think that anyone has access to the data? You can have one of my photos that doesn't mean you'll be able to know it's mine. On the other hand, I see a photo posted somewhere on the net and I can run my software to see if it is really mine. Luca

    11. Re:uh by Fulcrum+of+Evil · · Score: 1

      Yeah, if you can do that, then I can do that. Report the extortion attempt and get on with your life.

      --
      "We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
    12. Re:uh by AmigaMMC · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Yeah, that's well-thought. If my camera is stolen how the heck are they going to put my eye in the viewfinder to watermark their photos?

    13. Re:uh by SoupIsGoodFood_42 · · Score: 1

      How the hell is this a lose-lose situation? The whole point is this gives those people who do want every photo they take to trace back to them an option to do so. Do you really think they will force people to use this feature? Do you really think everyone is so paranoid to the point where they won't buy any camera with this technology?

      Unless you are just trolling, this is definitely one of the more tin-foil-hat posts I've seen on Slashdot in a long time.

      Perhaps there is a concern for identity theft, depending on how it's implemented, but I'm sure there are ways around that if it is a real problem.

    14. Re:uh by BLAG-blast · · Score: 1, Informative

      Um, you fail.

      I don't think so.

      As a result of the foregoing, biological information indicative of a photographer need not be acquired every time an image is taken and, hence, processing executed by the imaging apparatus is not subjected to a load in terms of the sequence of photography.

      This is referring to taking lots of pictures in a short spaces of time (i.e. a few seconds) where the over head of a biometric scan would effect performance. So, if somebody steals your camera, takes some illegal pics within a few seconds of stealing it, then maybe you win. But with the information currently presented, I'd bet against you winning.

      --
      M0571y H@rml355.
    15. Re:uh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting
      > Unless you are just trolling, this is definitely one of the more tin-foil-hat posts I've seen on Slashdot in a long time.

      Google "EFF inkjet printer dot code tracking", or some variation on the theme.

      The thin edge of the wedge was the implementation of watermarks on color photocopiers (and the implementation of currency recognition standards in scanner firmware and drivers), ostensibly to deter counterfeiters. Try to scan a dollar bill and your scanner drivers will scream bloody murder. Try to photocopy one on a cheap copier, and it'll fail. Try it on a sufficiently sophisticated printer, and it'll "break" (and a "repairman" will show up to ask about who was using it when the printer phoned home). Counterfieting is economic warfare, and frankly, that wasn't a bad compromise between liberty and security. But as predicted on Slashdot at the time, every printing device now watermarks its output, no matter what's being printed. (Bit late now to complain, isn't it? What are you gonna do, print off flyers and organize a protest? Wait... whaddya gonna print it with? :)

      Explain to me how this is any different? One day it's an "option" in the high-end DSLR firmware. Next year it's turned on by default in the midrange. Couple years down the road, it'll be standard. Year after that, it'll be illegal not to ship a camera with the iris-based tracking system.

    16. Re:uh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If you are serious about photography enough to need/want this level of protection then I would think your camera would be important enough to you for you to file a police report about it as soon as it was stolen.

    17. Re:uh by msuarezalvarez · · Score: 1

      What is an illegal picture?

    18. Re:uh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The GP is right. You fail. FTA, directly after the last sentence you quoted (as in "the next sentence"):

      Furthermore, biological information can be registered in advance.

      But hey, you got some mod points out of it, so I guess you're the big winner.

    19. Re:uh by NotQuiteReal · · Score: 5, Funny
      What is an illegal picture?

      "Think of the children".

      Not in that way, you pervert!

      --
      This issue is a bit more complicated than you think.
    20. Re:uh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Am I missing something?

      Yes. If that was the case, public-key cryptography wouldn't work.

    21. Re:uh by omeomi · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Or worse. Your camera gets stolen and is used to photograph illegal activities. The images are then posted on the net with your watermark on them. Cops arrive at your door and your life is history.

      Is there some massive and unlikely database of people's irises that I'm not aware of?

    22. Re:uh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      Yeah, photographers don't make that much money.

    23. Re:uh by 1u3hr · · Score: 1
      Or worse. Your camera gets stolen and is used to photograph illegal activities. The images are then posted on the net with your watermark on them. Cops arrive at your door and your life is history.

      Yes, they'd arrive at your door. Ask you some questions. No drama, unless the camera was still in your possession. Presumably you've reported the theft, for the insurance at least.

    24. Re:uh by X0563511 · · Score: 1

      Not yet. This would be a good way start one.

      --
      For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
    25. Re:uh by TheGratefulNet · · Score: 2, Informative

      Cops arrive at your door and your life is history.

      so remember, kids, what nelson muntz says:

      bart: "hey, can I try your gun?"
      nelson: "eh, why not. it never hurts to have an extra set of prints on a knife or a gun."


      (this must have some relevance, somewhere; else I wouldn't have spent the effort typing this in.)

      --

      --
      "It is now safe to switch off your computer."
    26. Re:uh by Mathinker · · Score: 1

      In addition to the comment above, photos of security installations like army bases, TSA checkpoints, etc.

    27. Re:uh by dangitman · · Score: 1

      This is referring to taking lots of pictures in a short spaces of time (i.e. a few seconds) where the over head of a biometric scan would effect performance.

      What? Where does it say that this only applies to rapid sequence of images? It would affect performance, even for a single photo.

      --
      ... and then they built the supercollider.
    28. Re:uh by Entropius · · Score: 1

      If you're hiding the watermark in noise, then your watermark will tend to get flushed by noise-removal software which is often run on the output of pocket cameras.

    29. Re:uh by SoupIsGoodFood_42 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It's different because in one case, the watermark is an optional feature added for the benefit of the user, and in the other case, it's forced mark that has been added without consideration for what it best to the user.

      Explain to me how this is any different? One day it's an "option" in the high-end DSLR firmware. Next year it's turned on by default in the midrange. Couple years down the road, it'll be standard. Year after that, it'll be illegal not to ship a camera with the iris-based tracking system.

      There is no real reason to think this is true. This is exactly what I'm talking about. Many people here are so paranoid that they think everyone is out to get them. If watermarks on printers were announced as a feature before they were ever put into production, do you think it would have been as successful? And how can this be forced onto people anyway? There is no way for the camera to tell if the photo of your iris is really yours or not to begin with. Don't you think there might be a reason for that? If Canon really wanted to track you, don't you think a more simple UID watermark generated on the camera would be the best way to do it?

      But hey, mod me down, because by the rating you seem to be getting, there must be quite a few others wearing their tin-foil hats today.

      I have great concern about privacy and the use of technology in general. I used to be an EFF member in sunnier days of higher income, but what I really can't stand are "advocates" who overreact to these types of things without even considering if it's really a problem.

    30. Re:uh by mwvdlee · · Score: 1

      In photography, it has long been established (in court) that the copyright to a photo belongs to the one setting up the photo (assuming it isn't work-for-hire, in which case copyright generally belongs to the hirer), not the assistant pushing the button on the camera. So I doubt this would have any legal status.

      --
      Slashdot social media options: AIM, ICQ, Yahoo, Jabber and Mobile Text. Why no MySpace?
    31. Re:uh by donaldm · · Score: 1

      Most digital cameras don't have a viewfinder, except for SLR's. Maybe the Cannon camera will have one just for capturing your iris details. Still if you are a professional photographer this may be a good thing although it would not stop somebody taking a picture of the scene you have photographed assuming they can go to were the photographer shot the picture. Action or unique event photographs tend to more difficult for someone to duplicate with their own camera, hence the reasoning of watermarking the picture.

      One interesting aspect of this is if a watermarked picture is uploaded to the Internet legally or otherwise and people download it then they could be culpable of stealing intellectual property. I am sure lawyers can have a field day with this.

      --
      There ain't no such thing as proprietary standards only proprietary formats. Standards are by definition open.
    32. Re:uh by 1u3hr · · Score: 2, Insightful
      "Don't want these photos of kiddie porn signed with your iris? Put ten million dollars in non-consecutive unmarked bills in a brown paper bag under the mailbox at 5th and Rochester." Am I missing something?

      Yeah. Why would anyone pay you? It's obviously trivial to spoof. Go ahead and get yourself locked up for 1) forgery 2) extortion 3) making kiddie porn -- good for 20 to life, I guess.

      People seem to have got the idea this is meant to prove conclusively who took a photo. It's not, and can't. It's like a serial number, it can be faked or removed. The main idea is to stop careless abuse -- no one could say "Sorry, I had no idea it was your photo" if it's got your metadata in it. And if they have a version with the metadata removed, they have a lot more explaining to do.

    33. Re:uh by neumayr · · Score: 1

      I'm pretty sure this technology, if it ever gets marketed, will be sold to professional or advanced amateur photographers.
      Who will want DSLR cameras anyway (who wouldn't?).

      --
      Truth arises more readily from error than from confusion. -Francis Bacon
    34. Re:uh by yada21 · · Score: 1

      People seem to have got the idea this is meant to prove conclusively who took a photo. It's not, and can't.
      Maybe not, but it wouldn't stop a prosecutor claiming that it does and bear in mind that statisticly half the member's of a jury will be below average intelligence.
      --
      I will have a sig when the market demands it.
    35. Re:uh by Jeppe+Salvesen · · Score: 3, Insightful

      flickr would become one.

      --

      Stop the brainwash

    36. Re:uh by ultranova · · Score: 0

      Or worse. Your camera gets stolen and is used to photograph illegal activities. The images are then posted on the net with your watermark on them. Cops arrive at your door and your life is history.

      Is there some massive and unlikely database of people's irises that I'm not aware of?

      1. I steal your camera, which has your iris data within.
      2. I photograph illegal activity - or simply take a photo of an existing photo of child porn. The photo gets watermarked with your saved iris data.
      3. I send the photo and your home address to the police or a district prosecutor trying to make a name for himself as an anonymous tip.
      4. The police check it out. Turns out your iris matches the photograph watermark. You'll get convicted and everyone laughs at what a stupid criminal you are, except the tough guys who post on Slashdot and explain how you should be killed like the rabid dog you are.

      Of course, this isn't any different from getting your fingerprints from anything you've touched and planting them to a scene of a crime to frame you. Makes one wonder just what should count as actual evidence...

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    37. Re:uh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      RTFA, moron.

    38. Re:uh by ajs318 · · Score: 1

      And if they have a version with the metadata removed, they have a lot more explaining to do
      Image-processing software routinely strips out "excess baggage" from images. Proprietary image-processing software can't resist putting in some of its own.
      --
      Je fume. Tu fumes. Nous fûmes!
    39. Re:uh by ajs318 · · Score: 1
      So how about this sequence of events, then?
      1. I steal your camera (complete with your iris data).
      2. I take a child pr0n photograph, which gets watermarked with your iris.
      3. I return the camera to you before you even notice it missing.
      4. I send the photo (with your iris data embedded) to The Authorities.
      5. You get fingered as a nonce.
      Never mind guilty until proven innocent; in the News of the World-reader mindset, you'll be guilty even despite being proven innocent.
      --
      Je fume. Tu fumes. Nous fûmes!
    40. Re:uh by AvitarX · · Score: 1

      Half the jury?

      Any significant trial (over 1 week) that I have been involved in (between a half dozen and a dozen) the judge essentially let any employed jurors (especially small business owners) off the hook if they said it was a hardship to them or the company they worked for.

      I bet this dropped the intelligence of the jury. Also, half is below median intelligence, I bet that like wages over half are below average.

      --
      Wow, sent an e-mail as suggested when clicking on "use classic" banner, and got a fast response that addressed my msg
    41. Re:uh by ajs318 · · Score: 1

      On the other hand, I see a photo posted somewhere on the net and I can run my software to see if it is really mine.
      On the third hand, someone gets hold of a photo taken by you, runs it through exiv2 to remove the data that shows it was yours, posts it on the net and you have no way to see if it really was yours.
      --
      Je fume. Tu fumes. Nous fûmes!
    42. Re:uh by IndustrialComplex · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      Get with the times. Illegal pictures are now undocumented migrant worker pictures.

      --
      Out of modpoints but really liked a post? 1BDkF6TtmmeZ3yqXbz9yhdYVqRYnwFoXDj
    43. Re:uh by Hurricane+Floyd · · Score: 1

      Basically makes it possible for "the powers that be" to trace all photographs to the person who made them, scary when you think about it. Mostly useless for copyright since it would probably be possible to reverse engineer the system and alter/remove the watermark.

    44. Re:uh by bcattwoo · · Score: 1

      4. The police check it out. Turns out your iris matches the photograph watermark. You'll get convicted and everyone laughs at what a stupid criminal you are, except the tough guys who post on Slashdot and explain how you should be killed like the rabid dog you are. I tell the police the camera was stolen, they search my house and find no traces of kiddie porn, and life goes on. In fact, based solely on an anonymous tip and unidentifiable watermark, they probably wouldn't even be able to get a warrant to do the search in the first place. If you wanted to frame me so bad, it would probably be easier to just break into my house and plant hard evidence.
    45. Re:uh by 1u3hr · · Score: 1
      I return the camera to you before you even notice it missing.

      Well, if you can break into the house twice without being detected, you could just stash a pile of kiddie porn in the closet and/or on the PC and make an anonymous tip. Who cares about the magic iris watermark.

    46. Re:uh by Benanov · · Score: 1

      >Well, if you can break into the house twice without being detected

      Bump keys.

      >Who cares about the magic iris watermark.

      It's going to be presented in court as something like "as effective as DNA evidence" blah blah blah

      My girlfriend has really dark irises. Any camera I have like this...those who examine the metadata will wonder why there's a picture of my middle fingernail instead.

    47. Re:uh by cayenne8 · · Score: 1
      "The more confident people are in there little tracking toys, the easier it is to get away with things."

      Better yet...what a great way to frame someone. Get someone elses 'iris' image and put on a camera, then take some highly illegal pictures...post them on the web, and voila!! FBI nabs framed person. Framed person can't explain away such indisputable evidence that the pics were taken with their camera.

      And we know that these days....with this type of crime, even if not convicted in the courts....you are guilty for life in the public courts.

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    48. Re:uh by EntropyXP · · Score: 0

      I swear that the most boring slashdot articles have the funniest comments....

      --
      "No one will really be free until nerd persecution ends."
    49. Re:uh by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      Just wait until enough of these cameras get stolen.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    50. Re:uh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Normally I don't pick these out, but what's your proof for the 'statistically' intelligence? The County of LA grabs people from where I work with more of a bias because of the compensatory benefits given to us for jury duty. Needless to say, the place I work at is not exactly statistically representative of the population, and that would seem to make your point inaccurate.

      Now, you could have said that "statistically half the member's of a jury will be below average intelligence" with regards to that set of jurors... but not the way you stated it.

    51. Re:uh by realthing02 · · Score: 1

      Yeah, all retired people must be idiots.

    52. Re:uh by Strilanc · · Score: 1

      Just watermark the picture again with random data. No paper bag required.

    53. Re:uh by deets · · Score: 1

      Good point. That is why this is a lot better than watermarking through a predefined number burned into the camera. If I buy one and create the watermark, no will will really know who that watermark belongs to until I file a breach of copyright lawsuit.

    54. Re:uh by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      Does this sort of watermarking get removed or muddled if the image is resized, recolored, or otherwise GIMPed? I don't think I've used any digital photo as-is straight from the camera without first tweaking it.

    55. Re:uh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      as the song goes biometric id "once stolen never replaced"

    56. Re:uh by rifter · · Score: 1

      I'm guessing they'll use some kind of watermarking. But, do you really want every photo you take to be unambiguously traced back to you? On one hand, photos you take can be traced back to you. On the other hand, the watermarking or metadata could probably be removed by a third party. It seems lose-lose for the camera owner.

      I would be most concerned that this type of thing could be used to retaliate against people who photograph politically sensitive subjects, like police brutality. The trend is to punish people for filming things like that rather than punishing the people abusing their power already. This would just be another tool to be used for that purpose. Of course it could be used to catch criminals as well, like paedophiles, so that's another likely avenue for the argument to take.

      I don't see how this is helpful at all in protecting photographers' IP, which is the claimed use for this data. If you take a photograph and I copy the photograph, the watermark can be used to prove that YOU took the photo, but it does not help us determine that it was I who copied the photo.

    57. Re:uh by rifter · · Score: 1

      Yeah, if you can do that, then I can do that. Report the extortion attempt and get on with your life.

      You have to get the extortionist's iris first, and he wasn't foolish enough to stick it in a camera that could easily be nicked or in pictures that were published, because he knows someone might get hold of that data and do something nefarious with it.

    58. Re:uh by Fulcrum+of+Evil · · Score: 1

      Nah, just have to get your iris on a random picture that you didn't take. Of course, this all depends on how it's being done - I kind of doubt this will be a big driver of extortion.

      --
      "We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
    59. Re:uh by Copid · · Score: 1

      My girlfriend has really dark irises.
      That matters to some extent, but not as much as you'd think. The cameras that do this type of thing work in near infrared, and the textures of even dark irises become very detectable under those conditions.
      --
      An interesting anagram of "BANACH TARSKI" is "BANACH TARSKI BANACH TARSKI"
    60. Re:uh by RockDoctor · · Score: 1

      Or worse. Your camera gets stolen and is used to photograph illegal activities. The images are then posted on the net with your watermark on them. Cops arrive at your door and your life is history.

      Unless, of course, you show them the paperwork that you got from the police X months earlier, when you reported the theft.

      What the summary doesn't say (and I can't be bothered to RTFA, because I'm not terribly interested), is that the camera itself checks for the presence of an appropriate iris at the viewfinder regularly. Say, each time it comes out of sleep mode. Or semi-randomly after each fifth photograph (the time to capture the iris image and analyse it might be really annoying if you're trying to do action photography, so you wouldn't do the verification BEFORE taking the photograph).
      --
      Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
    61. Re:uh by slider3618 · · Score: 1

      Dang. And I was ALL set to get my eye transplant done by that surgeon in the movie Minority Report.

    62. Re:uh by pm2012 · · Score: 1

      I love Canon cameras and loathe this idea! Like a sledgehammer to crack a nut, it is fundamentally flawed at so many levels and would enable a whole new level in high tech crime/corruption. The team who came up with this idea are tragically naive and really need to become more street-wise. Perhaps they were being guided in this direction by those of another agenda altogether... Biometric data is overkill in the field of copyright. It would be more appropriate for photographers to join an organisation that were able to issue a unique code to be granted to them. This could be inserted into the metadata, no system will ever be foolproof (corruption-proof) so let's not rush to adopt the big brother mindset, if indeed, it needs to adopted at all.

    63. Re:uh by AmigaMMC · · Score: 1

      Not a problem, my photo is still in the government's database where all professional photographers register their photos. Bet you didn't know that one huh? :)

  2. Sweet by geekoid · · Score: 5, Funny

    Now if I need to break into someplace that use iris biometrics I can just get that from a photo off of Myspace!

    --
    The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    1. Re:Sweet by Starteck81 · · Score: 1

      Now if I need to break into someplace that use iris biometrics I can just get that from a photo off of Myspace!
      ...and grow a working eye in a test tube. ;-)
      --
      "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed H
    2. Re:Sweet by geekoid · · Score: 1

      I would wager I could take the information and generate a picture with the proper key points in the right place. they don't actually recognize it as an 'eye' but as something to look at for key points. Which is one reason why there pretty easy to defeat.

      I can not wait until we can do eyeball transplants with our own eyes that we grow.

      Also, every thing else. or better A whole new body of when I was about 24 and just transplant my head.
      Why yes in fact, I would love to live forever.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    3. Re:Sweet by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Shouldn't you have a ~ at the end of that? ;-)

    4. Re:Sweet by jjeffries · · Score: 3, Funny

      Yeah, that's awesome, I was getting sick of ripping eyes out with a ballpoint every time I needed to defeat an iris scan... it really screws up the pen!

    5. Re:Sweet by timeOday · · Score: 5, Informative
      Practically every post here raises one of a small handful of obvious concerns. Funny thing is they're answered within just two sentences of the article:

      "Alternatively, by processing an acquired biological image into a personal authentication code and recording the code in the image of a subject, the amount of personal data serving as additional information may be reduced." In other words, no, an image of your iris cannot be recovered from the watermark.

      "Alternatively, by embedding personal data which is biological information in the image of a subject as an electronic watermark, falsification can be prevented more robustly." In other words, no, the information won't just be easily removed tags in the metadata.

      That's right, armchair experts, Canon isn't stupid enough to develop this entire application of watermarking without even knowing the first thing about it. Surprise!

    6. Re:Sweet by TooMuchToDo · · Score: 1
      Someone on Slashdot has a funny sig, something to the effect that they would like to train in the resurrection skillsket.

      I too would like to live much longer then the typical human lifespan (although I think 100 years on this rock may prove boring). I'm currently 25, and I think with the advances in biotechnology that will be occuring in the next decade (or two), we'll be much closer to this being possible (maybe not immortality, but living 1.5-2 times the current developed country life expectantcy).

    7. Re:Sweet by Fulcrum+of+Evil · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Most people who use canon stuff also have photoshop or something like it - should be interesting to see how the watermark fares after the image is processed. Likewise, it'll be interesting to see how the watermark affects the actual image.

      --
      "We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
    8. Re:Sweet by Aetuneo · · Score: 1

      How about looking at the image, and then taking a screenshot (or a number, depending on the size, and later stitching them together)? A watermark which would prevent that would have to actually modify the image, which I doubt most people (who care about the quality of the image) would want to do. That would reduce the quality a bit, of course, but that's a minor issue if you have a 10MP picture to work with.

      --
      Everything is subjective.
    9. Re:Sweet by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 2, Insightful

      In other words, no, an image of your iris cannot be recovered from the watermark. That's not enough, not by a long-shot. For example, finger-print identification works by recording information about 'minutae' (whorls, curves, etc). It is not possible to reconstruct a fingerprint solely from the minutae that is stored in fingerprint identification databases.

      HOWEVER, it is possible to use the minutae data to make a fake fingerprint that has all the right information to fool a fingerprint identification system. After all, the computer only cares about what information it stores - if all id systems work the same way (and for fingerprints the vast majority do, they just have different algorithms for comparing the minutae data) then one system's data is probably sufficient enough to fool another system.

      In other words, no, the information won't just be easily removed tags in the metadata. However, the information required by canon's system must, by definition, be stored in the image. Given enough samples of photographs with the same watermark, it should be possible to extract useful information. At the very least, it should be possible to falsify the ownership info onto another image and if iris systems work the same way fingerprint systems do, there may be enough information there to spoof another iris-based biometric id system.

      That's right, armchair experts, Canon isn't stupid enough to develop this entire application of watermarking without even knowing the first thing about it. Surprise! Well, your post drips with irony. It may be the case that canon has come up with a system to blunt the attacks I've proposed, but the text of this article does not provide much assurance beyond "trust us" style hand-waving.
      --
      When information is power, privacy is freedom.
    10. Re:Sweet by Lewrker · · Score: 0

      And I guess converting it a few times between different lossy formats wouldn't destroy the precious watermark ?

    11. Re:Sweet by Bombur · · Score: 1

      Well, do it often enough, and all that remains will be the watermark.

    12. Re:Sweet by nahdude812 · · Score: 1

      I'm guessing they're smart enough to hash the ident data - it can be verified but not reversed.

    13. Re:Sweet by nahdude812 · · Score: 1

      There are digital watermarks for images already on the market (and have been for at least 10 years). You can apply the watermark to differing strengths, the stronger the watermark, the harder you have to work to remove it, but the more the image is affected. In this case they're looking for image verification, so it would only have to be strong enough for the image to show obvious artifacting from the watermark removal process.

      Yes, watermarks reduce image quality, but in general you have to double the quality loss to strip the watermark. You can even crop out a tiny portion of the middle of the image and it will still have its watermark.

    14. Re:Sweet by Copid · · Score: 1

      I'm guessing they're smart enough to hash the ident data - it can be verified but not reversed.
      The problem with that type of work in biometrics is that the things you're comparing are not exact matches of one another. In the crypto world, a properly secure algorithm will give you no hint about whether you're close to matching or not. If it did, it would be relatively easy to break. A crypotgraphically secure hash, for example, should have about a 0.5 probability of flipping each bit in the output hash if you change even a single bit in the input. That doesn't lend itself well to biometrics, in which you're typically measuring the degree of closeness of two feature vectors and then applying a cutoff.

      That's not to say that it couldn't work, but the algorithm in question has to have certain properties. The few cases where I've seen it done, the actual transform is cryptographically weak because it necessarily leaks information. If it didn't, it would be useless as a biometric unless you were lucky enough to get an exact bit-for-bit identical capture when you go back to compare images.
      --
      An interesting anagram of "BANACH TARSKI" is "BANACH TARSKI BANACH TARSKI"
  3. metadata by ultracool · · Score: 0, Redundant

    What about editing metadata?

    1. Re:metadata by gandhi_2 · · Score: 5, Funny

      pfff. oh yeah. right. with some "magical hex editor" or something. keep dreaming.

    2. Re:metadata by Ron_Fitzgerald · · Score: 1

      From the article: "Alternatively, by embedding personal data which is biological information in the image of a subject as an electronic watermark, falsification can be prevented more robustly."

      Using wording 'embedded' and 'watermark' I imagine that these are generated within the image. Not entirely sure though.

      Another interesting point is that the iris information can be programmed into the camera once and then anyone who uses the camera is watermarking the image with the original iris scan and not their own.

      --
      ~ Ron Fitzgerald
    3. Re:metadata by MeNeXT · · Score: 1

      The theory seems simple enough. Get a series of pictures copy the similarities, produce a copy.

      --
      DRM? No thanks, I'll just get it somewhere else...
    4. Re:metadata by Penguinisto · · Score: 2, Insightful
      While you can easily edit EXIF data (GIMP has the ability for certain, and IIRC so does Photoshop), I suspect that it would be a little harder to remove a steganographic image that is embedded into the image file itself (unless of course you save it into a different format, say .raw -> .bmp -or-.tiff -> .jpg (taking the extra step just to be sure you rinsed it all out).

      BUT... this doesn't remove the original image, which a photog can take into court proving that it's his... now where's your 2-zillion x 1.5 zillion rez RAW image w/ the steganographic retina scan (and all the other related images showing similar scenery), to match the one he's using in court against you to prove original ownership? (which in turn pretty much tells you that it isn't even halfway useful until/unless somebody sues you for ripping off his work...)

      OTOH, I don't think it has much practicality due to the simple fact that not all photographs (especially pro photos) are taken with someone's eyeball right up against the eyepiece. There's a reason that all the decent photo shops sell release cables and tripods, yanno? :)

      /P

      --
      Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
    5. Re:metadata by jimdread · · Score: 2, Interesting

      BUT... this doesn't remove the original image, which a photog can take into court proving that it's his... now where's your 2-zillion x 1.5 zillion rez RAW image w/ the steganographic retina scan (and all the other related images showing similar scenery), to match the one he's using in court against you to prove original ownership?

      Suppose you produced an image by doing conversions from one format to another, starting with some photographer's original image. Does the photographer hold the copyright for this derivative image? The photographer might have some image which looks pretty much the same, with a watermark of his iris in it. But does he have the original of the image being complained about? The photographer doesn't have the generated image, because you produced that image yourself.

      How different does one image have to be from another image before copyright on one image doesn't apply to the other one? Do the images have to look different to the eye, or do they just have to look different to a computer program like "diff"? What if you do a bit of cropping and run a few filters over the photographer's image. Does the photographer have copyright over the image you make? If you remove the watermark from an image, is that enough to make it a different image according to copyright law?

    6. Re:metadata by Snorpus · · Score: 1
      My understanding is that the iris image is taken ahead of time, and applied after, the actual photography moment.

    7. Re:metadata by jacksonj04 · · Score: 1

      Makes no difference at all. What you're talking about is roughly analogous to "This was first published on Royal paper with a 12pt serif font, so if I publish it on Crown Quarto in a 10pt sans-serif it's a different text!"

      As for the cropping/filters there is existing legislation about derivative works in music, art and literature which varies by country.

      --
      How many people can read hex if only you and dead people can read hex?
    8. Re:metadata by alxbtk · · Score: 2, Funny

      Sure, and if you convert a CD to MP3 files, then it's totally OK to distribute free copies of said files.

    9. Re:metadata by Miseph · · Score: 1

      You do understand that such questions are one of the primary reasons that civil courts exist, right?

      As a matter of fact, I would imagine that there is already a pretty solid answer to this scenario, though I don't know what it is off-hand.

      --
      Try not to take me more seriously than I take myself.
    10. Re:metadata by raynet · · Score: 1

      But the iris data is no proof of ownership, you could embed your own iris data to the stolen image after you've removed or corrupted (by editing the image) the original watermark. Or if this iris watermark is prof enough, then rip some famous picture that doesn't have iris watermark, add your own iris watermark, sue the publisher/photographer and profit???

      --
      - Raynet --> .
    11. Re:metadata by Penguinisto · · Score: 1

      But the iris data is no proof of ownership, you could embed your own iris data to the stolen image after you've removed or corrupted (by editing the image) the original watermark. Or if this iris watermark is prof enough, then rip some famous picture that doesn't have iris watermark, add your own iris watermark, sue the publisher/photographer and profit???

      By itself, it wouldn't be. But when the original photog has that, plus a a few dozen similar shots under the same lighting conditions, vantage point, etc, plus a lot of other circumstantial evidence that he was there... ?

      Even without it, a professional photographer is very likely to have lots of other evidence, including (probably) film negatives, which you can't quite fake as well with a computer. I know a few pros who make it a point to take along a cheap disposable camera and get some incidental shots on it before or after they get their moneymaker shots. It only costs about a buck to develop the roll neagative-only, and good luck refuting it... Photoshop can't edit on silver nitrate. :)

      Also, the original image is likely to be shot in raw format, at full rez... 4096xsomething or bigger nowadays. The image you ripped off is already going to have loss artifacts in it if it came off the web, and it'll be in a much smaller resolution. You can try to up-rez it, but, err, the results will still (with today's technology) look yucky.

      Because of all this, I doubt the iris thingy would be much more than (at level best) icing on a pro photog's cake.

      /P

      --
      Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
  4. ... whatcouldpossiblygowrong by Mantaar · · Score: 3, Insightful

    And also help to track down that pesky journalist/blogger/dissident always posting images the government doesn't like? No, I'm not referring to any government in particular.

    So we'll have journalist's contact lenses if those things become the DRM of digital photography?
    Like with most advancements in modern electronics, this one does not go down my throat without a huge grain of salt.

    --
    I'm an infovore...
    1. Re:... whatcouldpossiblygowrong by rossz · · Score: 4, Funny

      The first thing I thought of after reading the intro paragraph was, "how is this going to be abused?" And what you suggest was exactly what i was thinking. First the government will require all cameras have this technology embedded in it to save the children from pornographers! Then they'll use it to track down that traitorous bastard commie journalist that took pictures of Senator Greedy and his hooker girlfriend (which were faked!).

      Note to self: Get more foil from the supermarket.

      --
      -- Will program for bandwidth
    2. Re:... whatcouldpossiblygowrong by stuff+and+such · · Score: 1

      Anyone know if wearing those holographic type contact lenses changes the outcome of something like this?
      And if the meta data is stored in the camera, can't I just put my cat up to the camera for the 1st photo?

      --
      my UID occurs in pi starting at the 384,199 digit after the decimal point.
    3. Re:... whatcouldpossiblygowrong by Hucko · · Score: 1

      Bloke, you are going to have to step up the tech. Foil only saves you from em fields. "They" are using reflected light or infra-red to read your iris. And "They" aren't going to need to have your eye pressed up to an eyeviewer. "They" read it from the reflection off the lamp post you just walked past. I mean might walk past.

      --
      Semi-automatic amateur armchair Australian philosopher; conjecture ready at any moment...
    4. Re:... whatcouldpossiblygowrong by Firehed · · Score: 1

      Okay, I'm a paranoid nutjob conspiracy theorist too, but how on earth would this kind of thing help the Think of the Children! movement? People dumb enough to put that kind of thing online tend to get tracked down pretty quickly anyways.

      --
      How are sites slashdotted when nobody reads TFAs?
    5. Re:... whatcouldpossiblygowrong by rossz · · Score: 1

      You obviously are not hardcore enough in your conspiracy theorist beliefs. Obviously, the gubment uses the "think of the children" excuse to get the sheeple to go along with the intrusive law requiring the eye scanner on all cameras. The real reason the government wants it is to track journalists (commies) and whistle blowers (terrorist commies).

      --
      -- Will program for bandwidth
    6. Re:... whatcouldpossiblygowrong by Raguleader · · Score: 1

      Someone at MIT got bored and supposedly proved that tinfoil hats actually
      amplify the effectiveness of radio waves in the UHF range, those frequencies most often used by government agencies in the US.

      --
      --Rags
      Life is like a burrito. Sometimes the beans go bad.
    7. Re:... whatcouldpossiblygowrong by Digital+Vomit · · Score: 1

      Then they'll use it to track down that traitorous bastard commie journalist that took pictures of Senator Greedy

      Isn't that a little redundant?

      --
      Modern copyright is theft of culture from everyone and it retards the progress of the useful arts and sciences.
    8. Re:... whatcouldpossiblygowrong by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How do you know the foil is for Faraday shielding? For all you know, it could be for taking heroin ..... You can still get addicted this way, but it's a lot harder to OD.

    9. Re:... whatcouldpossiblygowrong by realthing02 · · Score: 1

      I thought they were using butterflies...

    10. Re:... whatcouldpossiblygowrong by Hucko · · Score: 1

      what ever happens to be available...

      --
      Semi-automatic amateur armchair Australian philosopher; conjecture ready at any moment...
  5. Yes, this will help by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    sheeple
    sheeple who love sheeple
    are the loveliest sheeple in the world

  6. hmm.. by bigattichouse · · Score: 4, Funny

    So does reflecto-porn count as prior art? I mean, if you consider "unique image of the photographer embedded in the photograph" as prior art.

    --
    meh
  7. Is it really watermarking if it's in the metadata? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    That sounds pretty easy to strip out after the fact. Or, for that matter, to add in. What makes this any better than adding your name or email address to the metadata, as most cameras allow you to do now?

    Proving an image is yours generally isn't even a problem. Online images are lower resolution versions of the originals, only the photographer will be able to produce an image with many times the quality of the online version. The problem is a) finding out that your images are being used without your permission, and b) getting it to stop. Both of these are made much more difficult by the global nature of the Internet, and neither of them are made any easier by this iris watermarking, as far as I can tell.

  8. In the land of the blind... by VampireByte · · Score: 3, Funny

    ... the one-eyed man is king (but meta tagged).

    --

    Run and catch, run and catch, the lamb is caught in the blackberry patch.

    1. Re:In the land of the blind... by HiThere · · Score: 1

      Read your HG Wells.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
  9. Use and Abuse by neibwe · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Is there some form of public/private key crypto? Otherwise you'd have the same issue with forged signatures or lifted thumb prints.

    "Ooo, hey I just extracted ur iris pic and watermarked my baby pics with it. Now you're busted for kiddie porn. LoLz."

  10. Genius idea by xigxag · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I don't know that it will achieve its intended purpose, but nevertheless, as a concept, that is shockingly genius in its elegance and simplicity. Damn you Canon, for not waiting for me to come up with it first.

    It strikes me that the patent system is much like Slashdot in that only one person gets to shout "First Patent!" whilst everyone else with the same idea is downmodded to oblivion.

    --
    There are two kinds of people: 1) those who start arrays with one and 1) those who start them with zero.
    1. Re:Genius idea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It strikes me that the patent system is much like Slashdot in that only one person gets to shout "First Patent!" whilst everyone else with the same idea is downmodded to oblivion.

      That's sort of the idea. The patent system is supposed to encourage people to develop new ideas and register them as quickly as possible. If people who came up with the idea later (or copied it from you) didn't get the shaft, there'd be little incentive to do research.

    2. Re:Genius idea by techno-vampire · · Score: 1

      So, just patent the idea of using a fingerprint instead. If this is patentable, that should be too. Of course, I don't think either deserves a patent. A watermark is a watermark is a watermark, and this is just using something personal for it.

      --
      Good, inexpensive web hosting
    3. Re:Genius idea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Unlike most patent stories we read, this is a case where a patent seems justified.

    4. Re:Genius idea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is one thing to apply for a patent, it is another to be granted.

      The USPTO is making it more difficult to obtain patents. They are often shooting down patents (I've been in those arguments) as "obvious" jumps - often citing work in non-adjacent areas. Either a lack of training of the patent reviewer or just an attempt to limit 15 patents for a single idea (example a single patent for each colour the product is offered).

      In the case of the Canon application (I have not read the individual claims), it would seem that it is "obvious" to the laymen that you could apply biometric data to metadata.

      Systems for obtaining biometric data are already in use, and that image is "stored" and can be used at a later time to "identify" a variety of articles (product, information, people).

      Collection of biometric data is also a proven technology. Canon might argue that the collection of biometric "iris" data thru the view finder of a camera is novel - but I don't think they can claim novelty in use of same data as inclusion in the photograph's metadata.

      As a security analyst, I see many flaws in Canon's design - many pointed out on the list.

      It will be interesting to see if this is adopted or becomes an experiment that just becomes a cost to Canon's bottom line.

  11. I...eye? by ricebowl · · Score: 1

    Well, that sounds silly. I can't imagine that it'd be a good idea to make available one's biometric identifiers ready-encoded, still less wise to place that into the metadata. Which can be, quite simply, either stripped out, replaced or repurposed.

    It might make some sense to embed some form of identifier within the image itself using old-fashioned steganography, where at least it's harder (though still absolutely possible) to remove or acquire, but, as it stands, this proposal seems to embody the worst of both worlds: we'll make your identifying information publically available and in an easy-to-remove format! Net gain: um...?

    Still, I guess I can hope they'll patent it only to prevent other companies from implementing stupidity.

  12. uh...turn it off? by Quadraginta · · Score: 5, Informative

    Or don't buy the camera?

    This is something Canon would tout as a feature of their camera, for which artists would pay a premium, so that they could more easily prove that a particular photo belongs to them.

    Keep in mind these are people who (1) earn their daily bread by taking amazing photos, and (2) often have to endure years and years of dry spells before one particular photo hits the big time and generates widespread interest. They have a very strong interest in controlling the reproduction and use of their photos, so they can get paid for their years of effort. A feature like this, sort of an automatic unfakeable "signature" embedded in each frame, would make it much easier for them to prove that a given photo is their property.

    You might not like that of course, but that just means you're not a photographer. Presumably when it comes to whatever you do creatively, that takes years of discipline and effort to do, and which puts the food on your table, is not something you'd like people to just be able to duplicate and distribute randomly and broadly without even asking you first.

    Think of it as the equivalent of your engraving your SSN on your very expensive tools, so that if they're ripped off you can prove they're yours.

    1. Re:uh...turn it off? by geekoid · · Score: 0, Troll

      You get paid for that moment. No one deserves more money for their dry spells.
      Sorry, but that really torques me.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    2. Re:uh...turn it off? by Quadraginta · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Fortunately, in (most of) this world, you are not paid according to what you "deserve," but according to what you can negotiate freely with the people who want your services or product.

      Forcing your moral and ethical standards on others -- e.g. stating what other people do and do not "deserve" -- is something I find reprehensibly arrogant.

    3. Re:uh...turn it off? by DannyO152 · · Score: 1

      And if your tools are ripped off, you can also add the frisson of identity theft worry to the nuisance and cost of replacing expensive tools.

      What percentage of the professional photographers' work is work-for-hire? Does the watermarking survive the printing process? Will the watermarking survive the web-sizing?

      However, as noted above, I would be concerned about freedom of the speech and the press if the photos could be traced back to the photographer.

    4. Re:uh...turn it off? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bingo!

      Even a old Fuji S1 3.2 megapixel DSLR kicks the crap out of 98% of all the point and shoots (even the 12 megapixel crap)

      I know of many pros that still shoot with older DSLR's because they use old film lenses so you can get the lenses cheap and 90% of a photo is the lens NOT the resolution.

      only idiots will buy this new "system"

    5. Re:uh...turn it off? by Purity+Of+Essence · · Score: 1

      Or don't buy the camera?

      Or don't have a choice? This sort of technology could be easily abused and inserted covertly into most, if not all, cameras at the bequest of governmental intelligence agencies. This has already happened with ink jet printers which secretly print a serial number, traceable back to the purchaser, on every document printed. Abuse of this kind of technology is a threat to already threaten free speech.
      --
      +0 Meh
    6. Re:uh...turn it off? by Loconut1389 · · Score: 1

      Money aside, I've had photos stolen before. I took an incredible shot of the ISU riots a few years ago- a flaming dumpster in front of a mayhem collectibles store (sign says Mayhem)- and several people took it and credit. It wasn't a for cash shot, but in principle it bugged me to no end. I'd heavily consider paying for a camera with that watermarking if it was really unremoveable and identifying.

    7. Re:uh...turn it off? by Ernesto+Alvarez · · Score: 0

      Thinking that a watermark is unremovable is incredibly naive, considering all the time we've been spending discussing them here (in relation to music and film copyright enforcement).

      A watermark is removable by a resourceful attacker. If the attacker is not so resourceful/intelligent/creative, simply storing some identifying metadata should suffice. With that watermark, you gain protection against a "mid-range" attacker only, that does not know/cannot remove the mark, but knows how to touch the metadata.

      In no case iris scanning is of help, you could just embed some other info in the watermark (your name, or similar), unless the camera can take the fingerprint for every photo (think of someone else using your camera).

    8. Re:uh...turn it off? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      do you have a source to back up this claim about printers?
      sounds like you are wearing some foil on the head...

    9. Re:uh...turn it off? by photomonkey · · Score: 4, Informative

      Pro photographer here:

      It's not that hard to prove ownership of photos (for purposes of copyright assertions). I've gone head-to-head with people a couple times to prove that I created (and therefore was the owner of) the work in question. Nobody's ever argued that, really.

      The problem with copyright is more on the law side than the proving ownership side. Copyright attorneys are wildly expensive, and cases are usually long and drawn-out. Plus, just holding the copyright only entitles the owner to sue for actual damages. Only when the work is registered Federally within 90 days of publication (first use) can the owner sue for anything more than actual cost (IE, damages). Hopefully damages are enough to cover not only the bills, but the work missed while in court.

      I would much rather see a less tiered system where any use outside of fair use (and I have a broad view of fair use) is open to suit for cost as well as damages. I don't mind seeing one of my photos on a MySpace page or copied to someone's blog (especially if I'm actually given credit), or even if someone goes to my site, grabs a bunch of photos and makes a screensaver FOR THEMSELVES, but I can't stand it when my photos are appropriated into ads, tourist sites, news sites I didn't contract with, etc.

      It is much easier (and cheaper) to spell out user licenses and sue for breach-of-contract than it is to get anyone on copyright infringement and actually have it be worth your time to pursue.

      In my estimation, the ONLY good thing to come from the DMCA is the ability to serve voluntary and involuntary infringers with takedown notices relatively easily and cheaply.

      --
      Message contains 1 attachment: spam.gif
    10. Re:uh...turn it off? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      do you have a source to back up this claim about printers?

      http://www.justfuckinggoogleit.com/search.pl?query=eff+printer+code+serial

      We have better things to do than sit here and repeat the exact same information over and over while you rant about tinfoil.

    11. Re:uh...turn it off? by syousef · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I'm not a pro photographer, but I've been known to take upwards of 2500 images in a day, and without blowing my own horn too much I believe I've taken some photos that don't stink. I've even photographed weddings for friends and they've been ecstatic with the results (though I did not charge them).

      I think this idea is idiotic.

      For starters, how hard is it to strip the image of this sort of thing? Hell any tool that will allow you to open the file will be able to save it to a new format sans any digital copy protection mechanism....unless you're willing to do even stupider things like legislate against tools that allow image format conversion, or lock the file in a proprietary format with proprietary tools that you have to buy from the camera manufacturer. No thanks. ...and then there's issues with the biometrics. What happens if you have eye trouble? How do you prove that's your iris scan embedded.

      --
      These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
    12. Re:uh...turn it off? by skegg · · Score: 0

      don't buy the camera

      I'm concerned that this little feature could be broadly used and not publicised.

      For example, what about the hidden codes used by some printers?

    13. Re:uh...turn it off? by jimlintott · · Score: 1

      It doesn't matter if someone removes the watermark. The watermark is like having the original negative back in the bad ol' days of film.

      You claim that a shot is yours. I claim it's mine. You produce some RGB file with fake metadata and I produce a raw image with my biometric watermark clearly identifiable. Guess who the judge believes?

    14. Re:uh...turn it off? by Achromatic1978 · · Score: 1
      omg, you're a dick... What newer DSLRs don't use the film counterpart lenses? Canon's EF system, Nikon's AF system...

      Unless you mean "the new batch of consumer DSLRs", which I don't see any pros using, and are probably point-and-shoot like Panasonic Lumix, etc.

      The sweet spot for a PS camera is around 6-8mp, no more.

      But your logic makes close to zero sense on a full frame digital. EOS 1Ds Mk III? 35mm sensor, 21mp. Can use every (well, except EF-S) Canon lens made in the last 25+ years? Yeah. Only an "idiot" would use that (yes, I know, the MkIII doesn't have this).

    15. Re:uh...turn it off? by Achromatic1978 · · Score: 1
      Shoot less, think more - is what I say whilst knowing precisely zero about your situation. The first weddings I shot, I shot 2,000+ images. (Disclaimer right now: the images on my slideshow are crappy - rendered by batch job down to size, with zero consideration or tuning, and without applying Lightroom develop settings. Some just suck.)

      Sure, shooting on average every 10 seconds, if not more, over an eight hour wedding will net many good shots, if only by the "broken clock, right twice a day" theory. Think more, plan more, and 20 deletions for 1 good picture over a period will become 2 deletions, 3 good pictures.

    16. Re:uh...turn it off? by super_geek_1234 · · Score: 1

      Yes I agree this mechanism will fail to protect. There will always be a tool invented to strip biometric signatures from pictures. Most other copywright protections schemes (if not all) have been hacked anyway. This will probably only increase the complexity of the camera, and the size of each picture. There are too many useful cameras in use currently. What about film? I'm sure we're not ready to throw that away too. Finally this sounds like a touch of the Sci-Fi movie "the 6th day" where folks think they are taking an eye test ... however ... their personal data is captured /recorded and used to clone them! It's not clear how/or where the combination of your biometric data and name combination can be saved/or mis-used.

    17. Re:uh...turn it off? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why not? If the picture is part of a published work that people are already being charged for, then SOMEONE (the publisher) is already benefiting from your time spent laying in wait for a picture, so why shouldn't the photographer get a cut of it? Second, if you are engaging in business as a photographer where timing is critical and there are few ways of getting golden shots without wading through a lot of subpar attempts, then your dry spells can be considered part of your "overhead."

    18. Re:uh...turn it off? by umStefa · · Score: 1

      I am both a geek AND a semi-pro photographer (meaning I also have a day job to ensure that my mortgage gets paid every month). As soon as I read this I saw immediate problems, namely the biometric data needs to be either stored as metadata (which means it can be stripped out without damaging the photo) or it needs to be integrated into the image data itself (which means it will effectively reduce the quality of the picture), thereby rendering this feature useless to anybody who needs to put bread on the table.

      The current problem with protecting the copyright on photographs is not in proving ownership of the copyright (that's why most pro's and semi-pros register entire DVD's at a time with the copyright office) but in 1) identifying when an image is stolen (if I don't personally see any of my images used without permission then there is nobody else who will identify them for me) and 2) actually enforcing your copyright (I'm not the RIAA with an army of lawyers at my disposal). Things get more complicated by the fact that many photographers (myself included) don't really care if somebody steals an image to use as their computers desktop, since they probably wouldn't have bought it anyways so its not really a lost sale, but when this occurs the image can later get posted online with all copyright notices removed (and every single method of identifying a photograph as copyrighted). This means that even if you are able to identify a large corporation stealing you image, they can always claim that the theft was unintentional and hence any settlment will probably not cover the legal bills. A few of my full-time pro friends have actually found pictures they hold the copyright on (and where watermarked prior to being posted online) on flickr with the watermarks removed and under a creative commons license (without their permission).

      --
      Technology is most abused by the very people it was created to help
    19. Re:uh...turn it off? by syousef · · Score: 1

      Thanks for the advice. That isn't my style, and I'll never shoot that way. Some photographers that claim to shoot like that get fantastic shots. Others are just lazy.

      What I've seen as my skill increases is that the number of good shots I get go up dramatically rather than a requirement to shoot less. I'm not taking so many shots because most are crap. (My mother in law exaggerates with some of this being flattery but she reckons she hardly sees a blurry or badly composed shot in my collection when I show her the raw shoot. She isn't technical but like my wife she's got excellent natural instincts for composition.) A shot of a couple's first kiss will not replace putting on the rings, and will not replace any one of the hugs the bride gives on the way out. They're all different shots. Missing any one isn't acceptable.

      Then there's nature and wildlife photography which is what I prefer to weddings (which I only do as a favour and have done as a challenge). Animals are unpredictable. Better to capture 100 mediocre images that miss one pearler.

      The only issue with taking so many shots tends to be in managing them. I still wish I had more shots of our own wedding, and we have a couple of thousand.

      --
      These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
    20. Re:uh...turn it off? by Achromatic1978 · · Score: 1

      The only issue with taking so many shots tends to be in managing them. I still wish I had more shots of our own wedding, and we have a couple of thousand.

      VERY true. Even more so when you come into the task with an existing collection - can be Herculean.

      A shot of a couple's first kiss will not replace putting on the rings, and will not replace any one of the hugs the bride gives on the way out. They're all different shots. Missing any one isn't acceptable.

      Also true, and very worth noting. :)

    21. Re:uh...turn it off? by syousef · · Score: 1

      Thanks for being easy to talk to and not taking my rejection of your advice personally.

      Lately the slashdot trolls have been getting to me. It's nice to be able to have a reasonable discussion on slashdot where your own choices are accepted even when there is disagreement.

      There are definitely times when shooting like crazy works against you. The other big one apart from storage is that you have to be careful to avoid taking too many pics of people who don't like being photographed (or even being too noisy or in their faces when the occassion doesn't allow it eg. in a church). I'm mindful of these things, but it really is why I prefer nature and wildlife work. Most animals don't mind being photographed (and those that do you can hide from). No sunset has ever complained.

      Tell you though I'm itching to get out there with a camera right now. I haven't taken many shots in the last few months. The weather has been bad and my wife is expecting her first child so we're getting ready.

      --
      These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
    22. Re:uh...turn it off? by syousef · · Score: 1

      By the way I've just taken a look at your portfolio. You're definitely one of the better wedding photographers I've spoken to personally. (I've seen some damn unprofessional behaviour from so called pros who can't take a shot to save themselves). I'm already married and in the wrong country but under different circumstances (and if we could come to terms on details like getting a copy of negatives etc) I'd go as far as saying I'd probably hire you. That's actually quite high praise from me. I had friends and family shoot our wedding because I didn't want to gamble on a pro I didn't know. (Results were very good for the most part - 2 exceptions we got next to no full length shots, and the large group shots weren't taken in aperture so are a little blury. Still we have what we need).

      --
      These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
    23. Re:uh...turn it off? by syousef · · Score: 1

      Originally posted as a response to myself as I was in a rush....doh!

      By the way I've just taken a look at your portfolio. You're definitely one of the better wedding photographers I've spoken to personally. (I've seen some damn unprofessional behaviour from so called pros who can't take a shot to save themselves). I'm already married and in the wrong country but under different circumstances (and if we could come to terms on details like getting a copy of negatives etc) I'd go as far as saying I'd probably hire you. That's actually quite high praise from me. I had friends and family shoot our wedding because I didn't want to gamble on a pro I didn't know. (Results were very good for the most part - 2 exceptions we got next to no full length shots, and the large group shots weren't taken in aperture so are a little blury. Still we have what we need).

      --
      These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
    24. Re:uh...turn it off? by Achromatic1978 · · Score: 1
      Yeah, seems like "Troll" has become a synonym for "says something I don't want to hear".

      Churches are difficult, very dependent on the celebrant, I've found. I'm not one for taking photos of people in public. Never have been, always seems awkward, to me anyway.

      I should get into nature more. Currently my longest lens is a 200/2.8 which is not really ideal for a lot of stuff (though is plenty sufficient for most). I rented a 400/2.8 IS lens a few months back. That thing was beautiful (mind you, also weighed 13lb and retailed just a hair under $10,000 if I wanted to buy...).

      More photography on a casual basis was a resolution of the new year. Not quite lived up to yet, but getting there.

    25. Re:uh...turn it off? by Christoph · · Score: 2, Informative

      It is much easier (and cheaper) to spell out user licenses and sue for breach-of-contract than it is to get anyone on copyright infringement and actually have it be worth your time to pursue.

      I agree, and brought several claims successfully in small claims court under a breach-of-contract argument. But in one case, the defendant's attorney argued that federal courts have exclusive jurisdiction over anything related to copyright, and the case was dismissed without prejudice to re-file in federal court.

      They then sued me for defamation, and I filed a federal copyright lawsuit against them. It went to trial in November (Gregerson v. Vilana). This brilliant move cost them as much as >$100,000 in legal fees, on top of whatever the judge awards me (I'm still waiting for the verdict). I represented myself, with procedural advise from an attorney (still quite expensive).

      They tried to claim the photo wasn't mine, they even forged a sales agreement and claimed a non-existent person took the photo. This went nowhere, with the court finding the photo was mine based on my copyright registration (and perhaps eyeballing the disputed photo and the original on my website).

      I believe there will be a better system in the future, but I don't know what it will look like. As one example from history of a different approach, some great works of art were created during the depression under the WPA Federal Art Project, all public domain (artists were paid without having to sue).

    26. Re:uh...turn it off? by TheLink · · Score: 1

      Lots of dry spells = fluke or one hit wonder?

      So what if you actually take amazing photos? Lots of people can do that too[1]. If it's just luck that differentiates you from the others then you're like an amateur in a casino trying to put food on the table...

      I personally think such people should get a different day job, and do photography as a hobby/part time till they figure out what sort of stuff actually makes money.

      That'll be better for the market in the long run.

      [1] I hear there's this Indian guy who does pretty good wedding photos for really cheap, 3 days after the shots you get a leather briefcase (personalized with names etc) with the photos arranged in theme, the works. OK the minus is there might be one or two shots where the bride and bridegroom look like they're in a Bollywood set/pose, but I'm sure that can be fixed ;).

      Photographers should be thankful that their jobs aren't as easily outsourced - one actually has to be there to take the shot.

      --
    27. Re:uh...turn it off? by TheLink · · Score: 1

      Yeah, I don't really see how this solves the problem it's allegedly for. And it potentially creates a whole bunch of other problems.

      I'm sure you won't have a special camera reserved for taking pictures of someone powerful doing something wrong. You might go "hey that guy can't do that!", *click-clack*. "Then oh crap, this is the same camera I used for all those 1000 watermarked pictures I put online, what now?".

      It's trying to solve the wrong problem. The real problems as you mentioned are detection and being able to do something about it.

      If the photo is yours, it's usually not hard to prove it's yours - you'd have the _full_ collection of shots, and they'd have just one shot. You might even have established a recognizable style.

      --
    28. Re:uh...turn it off? by plover · · Score: 1

      It doesn't matter if someone removes the watermark. The watermark is like having the original negative back in the bad ol' days of film.

      You claim that a shot is yours. I claim it's mine. You produce some RGB file with fake metadata and I produce a raw image with my biometric watermark clearly identifiable. Guess who the judge believes?

      I understand the point you were trying to make, but the real answer to your question is more likely to be the same as the answer to this related question: "which lawyer was paid more money?"

      Trying to get a civil jury to understand watermarks and digital signatures is hard and expensive. The plaintiff is going to have to produce expert witnesses, perhaps even an engineer from Canon to explain how the camera does what it does, and why their picture is the original and the defendant's is the fake, and how do we know this isn't a fake made by by taking a picture of the other picture? A good defense lawyer is going to get the experts to admit to some irrelevant weakness, and then claim to the jury that "if we can't trust this camera to do X, how can we be expected to believe that it can do Y?"

      Don't forget that in a civil trial the plaintiff is usually the guy the jury hates -- it's his fault they're stuck in the damn box listening to all these experts blather on about hashes and crypshun and eyeball stuff.

      It's sad but true. The O.J. Simpson trial is a perfect example of how an aggressive lawyer can get a jury to completely ignore scientific facts about something as reliable as DNA testing and statistics.

      --
      John
    29. Re:uh...turn it off? by syousef · · Score: 1

      I have Nikon gear though I have no love of the company. I use a Tamron 28-300 for a walkaround lens. If quality matters (any social function, actually shooting landscape or wildlife as seriously as I can) I use the kit lens 18-70DX and 70-300VR. I got the 70-300 plus a decent flash specifically so relatives could use it at the wedding. Very glad I did. I wish I could justify pro glass but I can't so weight's not an issue with the lenses I own.

      Good camera gear is so damn expensive and such a hassle though. I hate cleaning the camera sensor - it's such a hit and miss affair with the equipment I use and it takes hours (only to be ruined by a lens change even in a clean environ. I've got a lot of pleasure out of the 5 relatively cheap point and shoot cameras I've owned but you just can't subsitute them for an SLR for wildlife, and lately they've just gone mega-pixel crazy at the expense of terrible noise.

      --
      These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
    30. Re:uh...turn it off? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Most wedding and photo studio photographers don't deserve the label of artist. That and the current disney induced distortion of copyright law means they can go fuck themselves when it comes to copyrights if I use them at all.

    31. Re:uh...turn it off? by avdp · · Score: 1

      Slightly off topic - Tell me you're not a school photographer that sues when someone scans their pictures of their kid? I appreciate photographers as true artists that they are, but NOT the school picture (or even mall picture) people that just rip off parents for these quickie, assembly line, snapshots.

    32. Re:uh...turn it off? by rsperry79 · · Score: 0

      As far as I can tell, it sounds like they are copywriting a concept before it becomes viable. Thus can sue the crap out of any competitor that makes it work for "design infrigement"

      On the funny side
      Personally I'd like to see an epiode of cheaters that had a line like "you took the picture of her koochi mother Fricker, what do you say about that!! that is your iris you cheating excuse for a husband!!!"

      it would also open a whole new line of porn debates.. "That was not amature, i know that iris. thats soo pro."

    33. Re:uh...turn it off? by BenEnglishAtHome · · Score: 1
      Good camera gear is so damn expensive and such a hassle though. I hate cleaning the camera sensor - it's such a hit and miss affair with the equipment I use and it takes hours (only to be ruined by a lens change even in a clean environ.

      As much as people like to put down the concept of high-dollar, fixed lens cameras, I think you just hit the nail on the head as to why they are loved by some of us. The Sony 828 and R1, for example, take great pictures with their great lenses. The full-size sensor of the R1 is wonderful, even if the camera has quirks and is crippled by that damn EVF. (All EVFs are damnable gizmos; I can't use 'em worth crap.) I've used both but never taken the plunge to buy. Still, I know that I want something like this.

      My main camera is a Nikon F5. What I want is a fixed-lens SLR (what used to be called, back when film was king, a ZLR or zoom-lens relfex; Olympus made a couple of nice ones) with a quality-not-quantity, full-35mm size sensor and a 24 to 75 (or longer) f2.8 (at worst; faster would be better, especially on the short end) lens. I need RAW output. I need easy external flash, preferably a capable and powerful dedicated system but I'll accept just a strong hot shoe. Beyond that, everything else is negotiable. I don't even care if it has an LCD on the back as long as I can look through the lens. I'll probably do 98% of my shooting in digital the day after that camera becomes available.

      If the same camera came without a zoom but with a premium all-around lens, like a 35/f1.4, I'd probably buy that, too. In fact, I'd buy three identical cameras if they came with three different lenses that adequately covered my needs, say a 24/f1.4, a 45/f2, and a 90/f2.

      OK, now I'm just dreaming the sort of fevered hallucinations that can only come from a guy who loved his 43-86 fixed-lens Nikkorex.

      Rant over while I go ponder how old that just made me sound.

    34. Re:uh...turn it off? by bkr1_2k · · Score: 1

      A feature that photographers would pay for? I don't think you know too many photographers. Proving a photo is yours is already fairly easy. Furthermore, many photographers would simply find this an "extra setup step" that would save them nothing in the long run because they already digitally watermark their work as part of their post-processing.

      This wouldn't be any benefit to most pros, and certainly wouldn't be worthy of considering a "feature" that would give the camera a price bump. A "feature" to a photographer would actually have something to do with lens and/or sensor speed/quality and resulting image quality, not something that no-one will ever notice without legal proceedings occurring.

      --
      "Growing old is inevitable; growing up is optional."
    35. Re:uh...turn it off? by n6kuy · · Score: 1

      I have a bigger problem with studio photographers that try to asssert copyright on pictures they took of me and my family, but that I PAID TO HAVE TAKEN.

      Can you say, "work for hire"?

      --
      If you disagree with me on social issues, then it's pretty clear that you are a narrow-minded bigot.
    36. Re:uh...turn it off? by NeoSkandranon · · Score: 1

      Think of it as the equivalent of your engraving your SSN on your very expensive tools, so that if they're ripped off you can prove they're yours. That's a wonderful comparison acutally.

      Now, think of the police coming to your door with a crowbar that has your SSN on it found at the scene of a crime.

      --
      If you can't see the value in jet powered ants you should turn in your nerd card. - Dunbal (464142)
    37. Re:uh...turn it off? by syousef · · Score: 1

      Personally I just wish Nikon still made the D70/D70S. I have 3 of these bodies (started with one, but my wife shoots too and I wanted a backup). Already had the motor and shutter replaced out of warranty on the original D70.

      I don't know of any other consumer camera that will give me 1/8000 flash sync (with a hack - taping over contacts on the flash shoe) or even 1/500th (without any hack). The difference to zoo photography is amazing, even in good light. The D80 is a flawed camera so I'm going to have to go up-scale if I replace these D70s. Everyone uses CMOS not CCD so I don't think such high flash sync is even possible with cameras being released now.

      Actually one reason I don't love Nikon is the warranty service I repaired on it in warranty. After months of wrangling and 3 trips to the repair center, I ended up with a replacement but only after threatening to take the complaint to the fair trading body here. At the time Nikon weren't doing their own repairs in this part of the world, and the guys were damned rude and refused to acknowledge there was a shutter jam problem after about half an hour's use. I went as far as taking video footage of the issue.

      You don't sound as old as you think. I got started into serious hobby photography through an interest in Astronomy and astro-photography. I collected and still have a couple of old Yashica manual cameras and a Nikon (I can't tell you which model without digging it out but it's built like a tank). That was about 6 years ago. I quickly realized how hard astrophotography was and more importantly how easy zoo photography was in comparison.

      Do you own a DSLR at all? I wouldn't put off going to digital if I were you. The flexibility is amazing. Worth dealing with the quirks. Even my 6MP cameras give very sharp shots. Not having to worry about some lab screw them up and being able to fiddle with them in RAW software and photoshop is amazing. (I always shoot RAW when it's something that counts, and where camera buffer speed is not an issue)

      --
      These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
    38. Re:uh...turn it off? by BenEnglishAtHome · · Score: 1

      Do you own a DSLR at all?

      No. I've rented them on several occasions, just like I rented an F5 a few times before I bought one. After 2 or 3 rentals I knew that the F5 seemed right to me in all sorts of hard-to-describe ways that have to do mainly with handling. That was enough to convince me to buy. At the time, too, I was making quite a bit of money doing photojournalism-type work so the camera paid for itself rather quickly. That was an easy decision.

      The DSLRs have been more of a problem for me. I've rented them occasionally, going back to some of those multi-kilo Nikon/Kodak hybrids. I always managed to run into problems that were deal-killers. I could get used to the Canon bodies but then I'd have to replace my Nikon lenses. I could use my lenses on the Nikon bodies, but the crop factor meant my standard lens, a 20-35mm f2.8, was no longer wide enough for the type of work I was doing. If I bought a wider lens, write speeds in RAW were a problem. Given that I was often working in nightclubs, image noise was a major turn-off. The big thing was handling - too many buttons with insufficient tactile feedback for when things were happening fast. By the time the cameras got good, my paid photo work had dropped off to nearly nothing so it became a problem to justify the expense.

      Nowadays, my attitude is changing. My home computer is fast enough to work well with digital imaging applications. Nikon has a full-frame camera that won't make me buy shorter lenses. Realistically, I know I can adapt to any control setup; I've done it before with a Speed Graphic, a baby Rollei, and a Rapid Omega, among others. And I have more money now than I did "back in the day." The time has come to rent a D3 two or three times and go ahead and take the plunge.

      My previously expressed desire for a digital ZLR is just a function of my reality - I can't make a cold, hard, logical case for buying a DSLR system camera, even though full system cameras are all I've used since 1972 when I got my first Nikon F. Thus, a good all-in-one camera has some attraction for me. But the kind of camera I want doesn't exist, so I can go down-market to a point-and-shoot or up to a D3. It's a strange set of personal attributes and situations that render cameras in between those two extremes rather un-compelling for me; I'd rather continue to use my F5 than try on a D80. But the D3? That makes sense to me.

      I wonder if my old rental-shop counter guy is still around? I may just have to call him up today.

    39. Re:uh...turn it off? by photomonkey · · Score: 1

      I am a professional news, documentary and advertising photographer widely published in the American Southwest, Central America and Western Europe. I also do high-end wedding photography for additional income (hey, news doesn't pay crap).

      I am a freelancer (full-time), in that I am not an employee at any publication I contribute to. Thus, I rely heavily on retaining sale and resale rights to my work, and must actively protect my copyright and therefore the value of my work.

      But you raise a very good question: What if I was a 'sleazy' mall photographer or kids photographer? It may not be high art, but does that provide me with less copyright protection under the law? If you see one of my photos and don't think it's good, does that entitle you to do what you will with it?

      I have a broad definition of fair use, and don't make a habit of suing my customers/clients. Although, if someone blatantly and willfully used my work to turn a buck, claimed it as their own, or otherwise violated our mutually agreed-upon license, there would be some degree of legal action taken on my part ranging from a formal notice of infringement to an outright lawsuit. I really couldn't care less if a private client scans pictures and puts them on a Web site, or even prints his own copies to give to family and friends. It would be great for my business if they had to print through me, but printing is no longer expensive and/or only available to a limited few. Why fight changes in the market?

      Going back to the mall photographer example, any professional will provide you with a rights agreement (license) up-front. Some are more restrictive than others. If you don't like it, don't buy the service. I don't require wedding clients to order prints through me, but I do make them available. More often than not, they order prints through me anyway, despite having a DVD-ROM of all their pictures in their hands.

      My business philosophy is that people are paying for ME (my expertise, talent, professionalism, experience, etc.), not the physical finished product. People pay for the look and feel of what I provide. I could do your portrait, or Mall Portrait Place could. Mine's going to be better, and cost you more on the service side (I make my money on the service, not the physical prints). But you'd be paying me to create your portrait, and paying Mall Portrait Place to put you in front of a colored background of your choice, hit the shutter release, and then make you pay dearly every time they hit the print button.

      Very often I hear something to the effect of, "Well heck, I could get studio X to do my portrait/wedding for a lot less." My answer is always, "Yup, you could. And I encourage you to do so if they meet your needs and price."

      --
      Message contains 1 attachment: spam.gif
    40. Re:uh...turn it off? by photomonkey · · Score: 1

      Private people and business PAY ME to take pictures all the time. It's what I do. And in any licensing agreement you'd ever sign before sending me out on assignment or setting foot into my studio would plainly dictate:

      "The complete collection of photographs, physical or electronic, resulting from this session/assignment, are ©Year Photographer, with all rights reserved. Under no circumstance pertinent to this agreement is the Photographer to be considered an employee of the Client, nor are the resulting photographs and other work-product to be construed as "work-for-hire."

      But copyright differs from license of rights. If I shot your kid's wedding, I retain copyright, future resale, etc., but I do allow you to make your own prints if you so desire, put up on a Web page and generally consume and use the work in any reasonable, non-commercial manner that isn't competing with my interests. If I shot the cover of your magazine, we'd work something out that was mutually beneficial.

      The very few people/companies who raise a complaint over this clause either wind up paying me a lot more in creative fees (compensating me for giving up potential future revenue and/or giving them the advantage of permanent exclusivity; generally more applicable to commercial news/advertising clients), or I just don't work with them.

      --
      Message contains 1 attachment: spam.gif
    41. Re:uh...turn it off? by avdp · · Score: 1

      I have no gripes with the type of photography you describe (your day job). And I like your policies on your side job.

      I have a real problem with people taking pics of my kids - the whole 10 minute worth of work that it is - put a notice in the back of the print to claim copyright on my kid's picture (they most certainly do NOT tell you that upfront, nor have I ever seen a written notice anywhere to this effect), and then charge me $18 per sheet if I want more copies. It's just plain wrong. Personally, I go, let the employee take the pics, buy 3 sheets (different poses) pay my $50 which I think is plenty for the service they provide, then do as I please. Even then, I does piss me off I don't get the negatives/files of those pictures.

      I do concede however that it is my fault for falling in the trap, and not seeking an independent photographer like yourself. I guess I am lazy. I am sure that's what the mall people count on.

  13. What a terrible idea by Qwerpafw · · Score: 1, Insightful

    As more and more governments and business turn to biometric data for confirming identity, and identity theft becomes a more and more prevalent problem, Canon's solution is to embed your biometric data in publicly distributed images?

    Someone would just navigate to your flickr page, do a quick google search to find your real name (or read it from your page), look you up in publicly accessible databases to acquire your address etc, and then just rip your biometric information right out of the images you post! As wikipedia points out there are commercially available fake iris contact lenses designed to defeat these scanners - previously, the problem was only in acquiring someone's iris. Not to mention that in the future as biometrics become more popular we're likely to see people's irises, fingerprints, and other information used in household readers for providing authentication to software and internet applications - much like the fingerprint scanners we're seeing on more and more laptops.

    Publically distributing your iris is a bad idea now, but a terrible idea in the future.

    1. Re:What a terrible idea by Fluffy_Kitten · · Score: 1

      As I understand it, your full biometric data will be impossible to rip out of the picture. The data embedded will be a sort of hash of your data.

      --
      People who have no sig are cool
  14. Nothing to do with copyright by SuperBanana · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Canon has filed for a patent for using iris watermarking (as in the iris of your eye) to take photographer's copyright protection to the next level.

    No, putting your photos on a CD or DVD and then following these instructions takes it to the next level. It helps that a)you have the RAW files and nobody else does and b)most cameras encode their serial number into the EXIF data (or similar for a RAW image), and if you have proof of ownership of said camera...

    I didn't see anything in the patent summary provided by the linked site that related to ease of copyright enforcement. Just:

    Alternatively, by embedding personal data which is biological information in the image of a subject as an electronic watermark, falsification can be prevented more robustly.

    Wow, you don't say. We can do that now- it's called Digimarc. They'll even crawl the web for you and look for images with your Digimarc watermark. Too bad it costs about a zillion dollars- their pricing model means that only a small number of pros use it (and you pay for both per-image watermarking, AND the services like web crawling.) This technology is sufficiently expensive and limited in scope to mean that it will never make it into anything except the 1D series cameras- it probably wouldn't even make it into the _0D series.

    I really don't see an application for this technology, except for *maybe* press agencies, where they want to (more) easily track who took what photo. This is a fairly painless way of doing so; you no longer need to track who has what camera (Canon and Nikon provide loaners for repairs and loaners for special events, which means that no, it's not 1 person, 1 camera. Pro's also often shoot with more than one body.)

    Though really, they could do the same thing with a microSD slot (where shooting preferences could be stored, too) for a lot cheaper. The only thing this gets them is more "proof", maybe- if they can somehow provide tamper-proof metadata (supposedly, the "data verification kit" from Canon provides verifiable images, but I've never seen even the most basic description of how it works.)

    1. Re:Nothing to do with copyright by daBass · · Score: 1

      I read the instructions on copyright.gov and I can't find anywhere where it says that you can submit CDs/DVDs to the Library of Congres, which your wording seems to imply. It sounds to me they want prints only.

      Personally, I would prefer to send (optical, not inkjet) prints as in the archives of the LoC they will no doubt last longer than recordables.

    2. Re:Nothing to do with copyright by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Digimarc?

      Holy shit just MD5 the fuckers its FREE!

  15. An idea... by DigitalisAkujin · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    Can we get a standalone USB Iris scanner for Photoshop?

    I know a lot of people who would benefit from this type of watermarking.

    It would certainly become useful on Art social networking sites like mine.

  16. Loss of resolution by UnderCoverPenguin · · Score: 2, Interesting

    So, the raw image (or high resolution JPEG or other) is watermarked. Seems to me that when the original image is re-encoded for publication that detail will be lost.

    --
    Don't try to out wierd me, three-eyes. I get stranger things than you, free with my breakfast cereal. --Zaphod Beeblebr
  17. steg by mugnyte · · Score: 1

    Not in the metadata, but the patent doesn't specify. Digimarc does this; they try to embed information into the image via stenography. However, it must be quite redundant, cover the entire image, and not affect the output, through all kinds of filters that post processing entails. This is a difficult problem, IMO.

      For example, jpg and several other popular formats allow for pixel info that is not displayed, but that is an easy target. in true steg, the information is interwoven with part of an image which are "busy" as so bits flipped expressing for encoding - or spread so widely that single,subtle shifts - are not intrusive. Filters can reduce the number of matching bits down to a statistical norm, but the image quality changes. Also, the steg must be impervious to cropping, rotation and flipping.

      I can see this being viable for commercial uses, but then again, if you're caught with unlicensed photos, all revenue from things they are attached to are on the table for awards. Most pros do not steal commercial images - one's reputation is finished.

      Online, I think if you succeed in finding your photos via a crawler that matches based on this info, you're then left splitting fair use from not. Most online uses are fair, actually, since they're not for profit. Now remember, you can crawl images now and sniff out similars - its painful and error-prone, and this doesn't make it easier.

      So then after you dice through all your hits, you find your photo being used [for example] to sell Cisco hardware for billions, you then write and ask for compensation, showing them the proof. And...up to this point, people were stopped at this last step? Courts look at the two images now and didn't believe they were the same? Smells like gimmick.

      How often are images stolen and used for commercial purposes? I really dont know.

  18. typicalslashdotkneejerkreaction by SuperBanana · · Score: 3, Insightful

    And also help to track down that pesky journalist/blogger/dissident always posting images the government doesn't like? No, I'm not referring to any government in particular.

    They'd be storing a *representation* of the iris image data. Useless for matching. Watermarking the actual image is only mentioned very briefly and in passing, in a sort of "oh, and you could watermark the image with this" kind of way.

    Given Canon's bread and butter with pro cameras are the press (your cute digital rebel costs $700; a 1DMk3 is $4k), they're unlikely to do anything that will piss them off.

    1. Re:typicalslashdotkneejerkreaction by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's only a matter of time now...

      Fingerprints now required to enter U.S., Japan, etc.
      Soon, it will be iris scans.
      In fact, my brother, who often travels to the U.S., has mentioned to me that there is a 'fast track' way through U.S. customs and immigration, requiring an iris scan...

      You will be identified and tracked. Constantly. By power-tripping, control freak governments, in bed with the developers of these technologies, who are in it for the lucrative contracts, of course. What do they care about your 'privacy', 'rights', etc.?

  19. Who's iris is it? by MikeUW · · Score: 1

    Does this mean someone could add the watermark/metadata for their own iris on a previously unprotected image, thus making it look like they were the author instead?

  20. if only there were some way to remove metadata by JeanBaptiste · · Score: 4, Funny

    like maybe the print screen button

  21. why not fingerprints... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    finger prints from the shutter release button will be easer to scan.
    New DSLRs start having "live-view" on the LCD like the P&S. In the near future not all pictures will be taken from a viewfinder. A finger still needs to press the shutter button, though.

    1. Re:why not fingerprints... by MadnessASAP · · Score: 1

      If you have a DSLR your probably interested in things like manual focus and aperature adjustment in which case using the tiny low res LCD screen mounted on the back of the camera is probably not going to convey the fine details of the image that looking through the viewfinder would.

      --
      I may agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to face the consequences of saying it.
    2. Re:why not fingerprints... by YrWrstNtmr · · Score: 1

      A finger still needs to press the shutter button, though.

      You've never heard of a remote shutter release? Or the camera controlled by a PC?

    3. Re:why not fingerprints... by slimjim8094 · · Score: 1

      He's referring to loading the image on your computer, full size, and using the "print screen" button on your keyboard. What it really does is copy the current framebuffer into the clipboard, allowing you to get a full-resolution image into a free format for pasting. The only problem is for this to work properly, you need 100% zoom, i.e. to display at the native resolution of the camera... which can get pretty high (4560x3520, I believe is mine)...

      --
      I have developed a truly marvelous proof of this comment, which this signature is too narrow to contain.
  22. How does it guarantee the data is accurate? by DaleGlass · · Score: 0, Redundant

    Most modern cameras have a LCD screen. That means it's going to be impractical to force the user to always look into the viewfinder. Also most decent cameras can take photos on a timer. That means the eye data must be stored.

    But this in turn makes it very easy to store anything as eye data. I could use my cat's eye for identification. Or find a high resolution photo on the web, print it, and try to get the camera to accept somebody else's eye.

    1. Re:How does it guarantee the data is accurate? by martinQblank · · Score: 1

      Most DSLR's that I've run across don't use the LCD for setting up your shot - only viewing it after the fact. Which means you have to use the viewfinder to take the picture. Recently - Sony I think - came out with a DSLR that does use the LCD for preview.

  23. Who puts the eye on the viewfinder? by charlieman · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Really, who does that this days? if this is suppose to work for any person on any camera they would have to register the iris every time a photo is taken. If it's registered before taking photos, then anybody using your camera can take photos that can be traced back to you, not them.

    1. Re:Who puts the eye on the viewfinder? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Obviously you have never owned an SLR. Those cameras have much more accurate viewfinders and, as a result, usually don't feel the need to put a live feed on the LCD display.

    2. Re:Who puts the eye on the viewfinder? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Holding a camera out at arm's length while looking at an LCD screen is not a recommended method of taking photos. Yeah, most people do it, but most people aren't photographers.

    3. Re:Who puts the eye on the viewfinder? by bronney · · Score: 1

      You obviously haven't shot an SLR. The beauty of old cameras or even the new DSLRs where you have to stick your eye up to the VF is that no one else would be able to tell what you're shooting at the time the shutter's fired. Very nice for candids.

    4. Re:Who puts the eye on the viewfinder? by GauteL · · Score: 1

      "Really, who does that this days?"

      Let me guess. You have never used a digital SLR camera?

      SLR cameras in general does not have a preview of the picture on the LCD screen before you take the picture. See Wikipedia.

    5. Re:Who puts the eye on the viewfinder? by YrWrstNtmr · · Score: 1

      SLR cameras in general does not have a preview of the picture on the LCD screen before you take the picture.

      They're starting to.
      Olympus E-330, -410, -510
      Canon EOS-1D MkIII
      Sony A200, A300, A350

    6. Re:Who puts the eye on the viewfinder? by charlieman · · Score: 1

      Photographers don't hold the camera. They use a tripod and a shooter control to avoid moving the camera during the shot.

  24. As a photographer... by Idiot+with+a+gun · · Score: 3, Informative

    It's neat, but I'm not sold. The real issue with it all, is not proving that it's your photograph. RAW files, EXIF data, and having a whole sequence of photographs instead of one, can help prove that a photograph actually belongs to you. The issue more often than not is commercial photographers not going after those that infringe upon their copyrights. I know it sounds draconian, but that's life. I love my Creative Commons as much as the next *nix user, but if you're trying to make your living off of it, you can't hand it away.

    1. Re:As a photographer... by Zymergy · · Score: 3, Informative

      As another photographer, I fully agree.

      I have seen some photographers not even bother to go after the unauthorized or unlicensed use of their images... that is until they are published someplace with deep pockets who is likely to quickly $ettle well when sued.

      Another issue is the fact that the camera is NOT taking an image of the photographer's iris *every time* the button is pressed and then real-time embedding it into the RAW CCD dump before compression, post in-camera processing, etc..
      This may as well be something that is done from the PC/Mac Editing workstation using special watermarking software when memory cards are dumped if it is not to be in-camera and real-time every-time.

      I remember being on "assignment" and shooting "humorous" pictures that were not necessarily related to my paid task, which later were widely circulated in company-wide email (say, like when I caught a police officer in his patrol car SLEEPING... I silently placed dozen krispy-kremes onto his hood just in front of his open window (as I maniacally laughed inside my head while rubbing hands together)... Boy, and I am sure glad that that officer could not 'prove' who shot the images. Heard that the police chief got a copy too.. LOL Parking ticket payback.

      Pro gear or not, any "big glass" shooters will have that crap switched off in a heartbeat if the embedding technology affects/delays shooting performance in ANY way. I know many pros who only shoot in "manual" modes because the internal computers on modern digital cameras inpart too much delay (ANY is too much for a Pro). Typically the only auto feature used are AP (Aperture Priority) with Ultrasonic/Hypersonic (Canon/Nikon) autofocus lenses... the rest are more/less for noobs and wedding photographers.

      It also has been my experience that effective watermarking would require some form of "crippling" in Photoshop (and any other pro editing software apps used in the biz). Thjis is just another in the long line or DRM. If you can detect it, there too is a way to remove it. (If anyone would like an example, take some high-rez RAW images of US paper currency (20's and higher I believe) and then attempt to edit those files at high res in Photoshop (el al) and then print them on a high end color printer. The software and the printers are deliberately modified to not allow the operations (by design) because they "recognize" the US currency and prevent the operation. I believe color copiers also have this "feature". http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/01/08/0111228
      I see this technology as also requiring a level of watermark removal prevention built into the software. Nothing like everyone's secret-sauce editing followed by flattening and a batch-resize with unsharp-mask followed up with everyone's favorite RGB->CMYK conversion (and color loss) to have fun with watermarks. Many imagers I know, wipe their metadata to help mask technical details of how the shot was made (or in my case I'd put made-up BS data in there, f32, ISO6400, 1200mm, etc..)... there are many copycats out there in the competitive world of photography. Something like this reads to me to be a possible new file format. That alone would kill industry-wide adoption (unless it is FREE and far superior compared to JPG, TIF, and RAW "lossless" CCD dump formats.)
      I'd like to see how Canon implements it and how useful it actually *is*.

    2. Re:As a photographer... by autophile · · Score: 1

      I know many pros who only shoot in "manual" modes because the internal computers on modern digital cameras inpart too much delay (ANY is too much for a Pro).

      Even halfway knowledgeable amateurs should know not to use auto mode, and not primary for the delay. Why?

      1. Manual focus: Because you know where you want to focus. The camera chooses a default. Especially on video cameras, where auto focus results in your subject going in and out of focus.

      2. Manual aperture: Because you know how bright your subject is. The camera chooses an overall brightness level. Also, you know how much of the background and foreground around your subject you want to be in focus. The smaller the aperture, the more in-focus everything gets, and v.v.

      3. Manual white balance: Because you know what looks white in your light.

      4. Manual shutter speed: Maybe not used so much, but useful because you know how fast your subject is moving.

      --Rob

      --
      Towards the Singularity.
    3. Re:As a photographer... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just to be clear, you could totally shoot on a D3 at ISO6400, f/32, at 1200mm. It'd be pretty good for parade photography.

  25. idiotic by nguy · · Score: 3, Informative

    Using a biometric identifier for watermarking is pointless and only broadcasts your biometric id across the world. Biometric ids are there for proving that you are you, not that something belongs to you.

    If you have a good watermarking scheme, embed a string like "This image is Copyright 2008 by ..." into the images. If, for some reason, you want to sign your images digitally, sign them digitally.

    1. Re:idiotic by TooMuchToDo · · Score: 1

      Perhaps someone should modify the camera to sign each key with your PGP private key stored on microSD. A little more fool-proof.

  26. RTFA, it's YOU who jumped the gun... by msauve · · Score: 5, Informative
    the invention does not capture an iris image with each shot. In fact, it describes allowing up to 5 users to pre-register their irises in the camera. It goes on to say...

    As a result of the foregoing, biological information indicative of a photographer need not be acquired every time an image is taken and, hence, processing executed by the imaging apparatus is not subjected to a load in terms of the sequence of photography. Furthermore, biological information can be registered in advance.
    --
    "National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
    1. Re:RTFA, it's YOU who jumped the gun... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      So I can register any eye into the five slots. Here's three : Neighbor's cat, stray dog, brown.

  27. Waah. by Idiot+with+a+gun · · Score: 2, Insightful

    As said above: Turn it off, or don't buy that camera. I'm not particularly sold on it myself, so I won't buy it (that and I shoot Nikon, and I've already invested in lenses).

  28. menu option? by Oriumpor · · Score: 1

    Enable Iris Watermark? [YES] [NO]

    1. Re:menu option? by countSudoku() · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Not to mention the obvious:
      Enable Camera Password?[YES][NO]

      Encrypt the iris store in the camera... problem solved... next?

      --
      This is the NSA, we're gonna geet U h@x0r5! Also, what is a h@x0r5?
  29. 1. Engage brain, 2. Respond by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    As more and more governments and business turn to biometric data for confirming identity, and identity theft becomes a more and more prevalent problem, Canon's solution is to embed your biometric data in publicly distributed images?

    I assume it's not embedding raw biometric data, but rather a cryptographic hash of your cryptographic data and the image data. You know, like a PGP signature.

    Of course, since it took me about 0.3 seconds to come up with this, I'm sure it's beyond the capabilities of Canon's entire R&D division, huh?
  30. Re:100% PURE AFRICAN NIGGER by Ricin · · Score: 1, Flamebait

    No, you want euthaenesia. You just don't know it yet.

  31. Re:Tagged "gay"? by Ricin · · Score: 1

    Yah baby, now reach for the kleenex. Atta boy

  32. Re:Is it really watermarking if it's in the metada by timeOday · · Score: 1

    If it's not defeated, watermarking does make it easier to find copies of your images. You only have to process each image on the web once to find your watermark. Without watermarking, you'd have to do a pairwise comparison between every image on the web and every image of your own.

  33. crypto not silver bullet by Erpo · · Score: 1

    I agree that this sounds easy to fake. However, cryptography is not a silver bullet that one can incorporate into any technology idea and have it make the whole thing work. Cryptography is a tool, like a screwdriver, and it can be used for some jobs and not others.

  34. You're wrong. by schon · · Score: 1

    Speaking as a photographer who has had his work used in print and on-line, (including photos of Mexico used in brochures put out by the Mexico department of Tourism), I can say that *NOBODY* deserves to get paid for mediocre work, and if you're going through a 'dry spell', then you're doing mediocre work.

    1. Re:You're wrong. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      if you're going through a 'dry spell', then you're doing mediocre work


      Actually, I don't have a camera. Perhaps my 'dry spell' is due to that? Thank's for the insult, by the way.

  35. Click by Altec+Lansing · · Score: 1

    Wot?! My robot can't take pictures?

  36. Re:Tagged "gay"? by azakem · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Fight back, tag !gayyouhomophobicbastard

  37. an easier yet better method by FudRucker · · Score: 2, Interesting

    just put your signature on a piece of paper, scan it with a flatbed scanner and save as a couple of the popular file formats used for computer graphics (jpg, png, gif) then resize them small enough to not be noticed and paste them on to your photos you want copyrighted/trademarked whatever, then nobody will know they are there unless they zoom in to 400% and look for the signature in a specified location, but since you keep all that your own little secret nobody knows they are there unless you need it to defend your self in the court of law...

    --
    Politics is Treachery, Religion is Brainwashing
    1. Re:an easier yet better method by Faylone · · Score: 1

      That would be trivially viewable on a computer, I've yet to see a monitor where a single pixel different wouldn't make a difference.

  38. I am the Paedofinder-General, and I pronounce... by Mr.+Roadkill · · Score: 1

    ...you Guilty of Paedophilia, because your iris code - as identified from the metadata of images you have shared on Flickr - has been found in images taken by a Kiddie-Fiddler in Thailand and posted to irootkids.com

    Your protestations that such data is insecure and easily manipulated is nonce-sense, for you are a nonce - as proven by the facts that someone with a hex-editor and too much time on his hands has implicated you in such heinous acts, your credit card records that show that you ate at a Thai restaurant, the half-remembered recollection of the waitress that you ordered Tom-Yum soup and the fact that your son's name is Tom.

    And now, on a more serious note...

    Surely anyone involved in professional production of such materials these days would "file the serial numbers off" before distribution, meaning they'd strip as much of the metadata off as they could and would turn such features off in cameras they used. However, there would be a sufficient number of people who didn't do that to make it worth pursuing leads that identified a particular camera or photographer. My question is, how easy would it be to forge such incriminating photographs? If you knew a particular politician owned a particular camera model, and you could get a couple of sample images from it, would it be worth your while having someone in Thailand take pervy pics with the same model and passing all that information over to someone who could produce a believable hybrid file with the pervy images and the real meta-data?

  39. Story is tagged "gay"? by Pendersempai · · Score: 1, Offtopic

    Is it too much to ask that we kick the homophobia? Some people are gay; get over it.

    1. Re:Story is tagged "gay"? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, homophobia is for fags.

    2. Re:Story is tagged "gay"? by i_liek_turtles · · Score: 0

      Who cares? Tags are gay.

  40. Do what most Photographers do by Idiot+with+a+gun · · Score: 1

    Actually watermark the image. You know, actually modify the image with text, your name, company, firm, whatever. So you can easily view the image, but it prominently displays who it belongs to. When you actually sell it, give them the un-watermarked version.

  41. "Good" DRM? by moosesocks · · Score: 1

    This seems all quite innocuous.

    The system is completely voluntary, so privacy concerns should be kept to an absolute minimum... The only reason you'd want to use this system is to permanently attach you identity to your photos, thus intentionally sacrificing a bit of privacy.

    In return, you receive nearly-absolute proof of ownership for said photos. This prevents some twat from pulling my photo off of Flickr, selling it to Reuters, and pocketing the profits. However, it doesn't do anything prevent the photo from being copied or propagating across the web (which is something that most "traditional" DRM systems would do).

    It seems like a very nice compromise wherein the rights of the content producers and end-users are both protected. End-users are free to do what they please with the content (a la Creative Commons), while the content-producers may retain ownership of their own work, and reserve commercial rights to that work (which they're perfectly entitled to do!).

    I must say that I like this quite a bit.

    --
    -- If you try to fail and succeed, which have you done? - Uli's moose
  42. What about people that sharing the camera? by fuzzylollipop · · Score: 1

    What happens when someone else takes a picture with the camera, if it stores the iris imprint, I will be getting credit for someone else's crappy photography!

  43. you mean sometime soon now... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...that the intartubes are going to be "crawling" with thousands/millions of watermark search spiders, each one downloading image after image? Over and over again every time someone posts a new image with their watermark? Then another run the week after to just "make sure" it hasn't happened yet? Just to check to make sure they haven't been copied? Might make SPAM and P2P tunes sharing look like a minor bandwith issue at that point.

  44. We already have a think tank for working out... by zappepcs · · Score: 1

    the results of such technology. It's called Science Fiction. Remember 'Minority Report'? It and stories like it are proof that any 'infallible or ingeniously indispensable technology can be both wrong or misused.

    Moral of the story here is that any theft-proof or idiot-proof identification method remains so only as long has it has never been tested against either.

    The second thing to go wrong with this type of technology is that someone will copyright their retina pattern and there will be copyright disputes as to who owns what all over again.

    sad, sad, sad....

  45. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 0

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  46. copyright infringement of photos online by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    i didn't know "copyright infringement of photos online" was a problem

  47. Don't look into viewfinder with remaining eyeball by billstewart · · Score: 3, Interesting
    I'd much rather set the metadata to some passphrase of mine which I can choose for the occasion than be stuck with at most two sets of metadata for all my pictures. Or if I really wanted a biometric, a voiceprint would be more useful (because I could say something like "Washington DC, Nov 5, 2008" or whatever useful tagging I want.) Or even a thumbprint would be better than my eyeprint.


    And then there's that James Bond movie scene ....

    --

    Bill Stewart
    New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
  48. Re:Tagged "gay"? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If you had a reading age above five, you'd have figured out that he knows homosexual people call themselves gay, and that he was objecting to the word used to describe himself and others being also used to indicate that something was silly, useless or pointless.

    So, in short, simple terms:

    Gay -> Homosexual = OK.
    Gay -> Waste of Space = Not OK.

  49. More importantly... by Idiot+with+a+gun · · Score: 1

    How the heck do you fit an accurate iris scanner into the viewfinder of a camera? Most DSLR viewfinders are pretty tiny, and packed full of, you know, actually important stuff. And most point and shoots I've seen recently have absolutely horrible viewfinders (heck, I've read of a few manufacturers omitting them ).

    Where the heck will they fit it all?

    1. Re: More importantly... by setirw · · Score: 1

      Well, some of Canon's cameras have eye controlled AF point selection (the EOS 3 springs to mind.) It's not too hard to embed a tiny CCD for capturing iris data. Capturing it precisely is another matter, since there isn't much room for a lens of sufficient focal length to capture a nice shot of the iris.

      Then again, since this is only used for biometric data, precise capture isn't important (thumbprint scanners aren't too high-res either; fundamental points of the thumb/iris are all that're required to establish a good match.)

      --
      This message printed on 100% post-consumer recycled electrons.
  50. it's all economics by Quadraginta · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Come on now. You might as well argue that locking your front door is pointless because there are many ways to pick a lock, if you are talented and persistent and resourceful enough, and in the end you can just hire a Mission : Impossible team for $10,000,000 to silently dig a tunnel under the house and break in through the basement.

    The point isn't to make theft impossible in the sense that it would violate the laws of physics. The idea is just to make it more expensive, so that, ideally, it's cheaper to pay for the work in an honest way than to steal it.

    In any event, there is obviously a correlation between how expensive and difficult it is to steal and make it pay, and how much stealing goes on. Anything that makes stealing even slightly more expensive is going to reduce the amount of it (more or less driving the cheap criminals out of the "market"). If it costs less than the amount of theft prevented, it's worth it.

    1. Re:it's all economics by syousef · · Score: 1

      Come on now. You might as well argue that locking your front door is pointless because there are many ways to pick a lock

      What silly comparison is this?

      Locking your front door restricts physical access. Your house can't at the click of a button be copied and modified so that the copied house has no front door.

      That's worse than the worst car analogy I've seen here. The only similarity is that both are safeguards that try to keep things from being stolen. Beyond that it's apples to oranges.

      --
      These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
    2. Re:it's all economics by TheLink · · Score: 1

      The point is is it a good idea in the first place- given the potential overall long term pluses and minuses?

      Say it makes stealing very slightly more expensive, but at the same time it makes it easier for ignorant whistleblowers/journalists/bloggers to get harmed when doing stuff that's beneficial to society as a whole.

      Is it then still worth it?

      Are you going to carry two cameras around - one for taking professional pictures of sunsets etc, and one for taking pictures of cops shooting some guy without due process?

      Look how "careful" the Gov was when they emailed the whistleblower email addresses to everyone and Dick Cheney...

      IMO the tech is crap for its official alleged purpose.

      If the watermark is obstrusive enough to survive a cropping, then pro-photographers are going to complain about fidelity loss etc.

      If people copy my work and claim its theirs, let's see them create more new works, then we'll see who is the "real thing".

      --
    3. Re:it's all economics by Quadraginta · · Score: 1

      The point is is it a good idea in the first place- given the potential overall long term pluses and minuses?

      No, that's a topic for theologians, monks, and college sophomores to debate, because only God Himself is wise enough to evaluate whether anything is "beneficial to society as a whole." Any mere mortal who claims he can do so is a fool, shyster or crook. This is why it's proven utterly impossible to set up the One True Social System that automatically evaluates each and every technological advance and encourages those that are Good and suppresses those that are Bad.

      And so we have such morally ambiguous tools as atomic bombs, ICBMs, guns, and anonymous Internet identities. We've found that in actual practise (as opposed to a meaningless discussion forum) you can't evaluate whether a whole technology is Good or Bad. No ten people can even agree on the definition of "good" and "bad." You can only, at best, say that this or that particular use of the technology is good or bad. So we don't, unless we're naive idiots, evaluate technology all by itself. We evaluate the actions of people and judge those, instead. Shooting schoolchildren to make a political point is bad. Shooting people who are in the process of shooting schoolchildren is good. Shooting people who merely say schoolchildren should be shot to make political points is a closer call, but probably bad. And so on. But we don't even try to decide whether guns, or even "shooting people" is, in itself, on balance, good or bad.

      Boy, what do they teach in schools these days?

    4. Re:it's all economics by TheLink · · Score: 1

      'because only God Himself is wise enough to evaluate whether anything is "beneficial to society as a whole."'

      Sure, but I think he gave some of us brains (unfortunately? ;) ).

      Whether we use them or not, the Corporations (e.g. Monsanto, Big Media) and others (rulers) will make their choices and moves.

      The more intelligence and power you have the more responsible you are for what happens.

      Blessed must be the extremely stupid, for how can God hold them responsible for much? They can bumble along merrily, oblivious to things.

      --
    5. Re:it's all economics by Quadraginta · · Score: 1

      First of all, let's make it clear what an amazing level of prediction we're talking about here. Compared to predicting the entire spectrum of effects on society, decades and centuries into the future, of a whole new technology, predicting who will win the 2008 US Presidential election, or which stocks will rise in the year ahead and which will fall, is complete child's play. Predicting what team will win the Super Bowl would be something you could do half drunk.

      It's not just a question of an intelligence massive enough to comprehend a bazillion different factors, the hopes and ambitions and prejudices and tendencies of half a billion people, but also being able to do so in the near absence of data. Because we know very little, in detail, about our society. We know only such gross overall measures as our total national income, how many of us there are, how many are registered Republican and Democrat, our age distribution, our stated religious preferences, and so forth.

      But do we even have the merest beginnings of data that would tell us as much about strangers in Idaho or Poughkeepsie as we know about, say, our own children, our own parents, or our own spouse? Not at all. And keep in mind how easy it is to make mistakes even when you predict the behaviour of those nearest and dearest to you, about whom you know enormously more than you know about strangers thousands of miles away, perhaps from cultural backgrounds totally different from yours.

      Furthermore, even if you have the intelligence and access to the data, and form the correct conclusions, how do you prove they're correct to everyone else? Because, unless you live in a dictatorship and happen to be the dictator, you aren't going to be able to do anything about your insight unless you convince a whole lot of other, ordinary people that you can see the future. Hence our putative Messiah here has to not only be superintelligent and nearly omniscient, he has to have superhuman persuasive power.

      This is an amazing fact about human beings. They understand perfectly well how difficult it is to predict the behaviour and reactions of people they know well -- what will the boss say about this screw-up? How will my teenage daughter react to this new restriction? Will my wife like this birthday present or not? And they're usually fairly humble about their ability to predict that behaviour, or modify it by gentle persuasion.

      But when it comes to millions of strangers, all of a sudden it's seen as fairly easy to (1) predict how they'll react to any random change, and (2) gently persuade them (so you don't have to institute a police state) to act in the proper way.

      Doesn't that make any logical consistency alarm bells go off?

  51. Re:Tagged "gay"? by Tibor+the+Hun · · Score: 1

    "homephobic basement dweller"?
    Dude, he's the one that has it tough!

    --
    If you don't know what AltaVista is (was), get off my lawn.
  52. Lossy JPG will munge the watermark by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Duh, just convert it to JPG with a very tiny amount of compression and you've destroyed the watermark with only a 1% loss in quality.

    1. Re:Lossy JPG will munge the watermark by turbofisk · · Score: 1

      But then you have a very strong case when you come after the person doing so and passing of your work as his...

  53. Re:Tagged "gay"? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    it's hard to have any problem with gay people. they're the only kind of aberrant people who quite voluntarily remove themselves from the gene pool. anything wrong with them tends to be negated by that. so now if they would just get their agenda out of politics and out of the schools then no rational person would have anything against them.

    and if you had any understanding, at all, youd have figured out that if people want to equate "gay" with "waste of space", then they will, and getting all pissy about it is not going to change their minds. in fact, getting all pissy and whining about it is going to be counterproductive because it makes gay people look like a bunch of pissy whiny thin-skinned individuals, the kind of individuals who make mountains of molehills. really now what kind of idiot says he wants something and then takes actions that hinder that goal? trolling slashdot is much more "noble" by comparison.

  54. Re:Tagged "gay"? by azakem · · Score: 1

    How is that flamebait, you anonymous homophobic bastard?

  55. Yet another clueless company doesn't understand... by hAckz0r · · Score: 1
    Never mind the 1984 syndrome, adding a watermark to an image is just a DUMB idea. What happens when you resize the image, or change the compression ratio? All you need is one bit out of place and the whole image gets recompressed differently. Take JPEG for instance, it is, get this, not a "lossless" compression algorithm. Once you edit the image and resave it you can never get the original image resolution back. Likewise the "watermark" data along with that image will be changed forever. This is just another case of a solution looking for a problem, and a company looking for moo-la by doing a snake-oil snow job. There is nothing that you can embed in an image that can't be changed, and the best you can hope for is proving that the watermark was broken and invalid "intentionally". Now try proving that the broken DRM watermark was derived from the original image if there was more than one edit operation and file recompress done to it. The only way this could work would be to devise a completely different lossless file format that could not be converted to any other. Who would use it?


    When will people learn, that DRM is a an application of an illogical technology trying to solve a "Social Problem". Even if DRM could be "logically" be perfected, and it won't, it will never solve the root cause of the original problem. File sharing and copyright violations happen because the people who do it feel somehow that they are either justified in doing it or are just getting even with the crooks. Now, try to solve that problem using DRM? Sorry, try as they will its just not going to happen.

  56. Why not toe watermarking? by heroine · · Score: 1

    They could just photograph your toe and insert that in the JPEG header. What about photographing a 32 bit number and putting that in the JPEG header?

  57. already patented by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This method is already patented in the US and I believe in JP. I came across it a while ago when doing research for a patent the company I work for was intending to file. Apologies for the AC post, but our patent isn't filed yet haha, so best to remain anonymous.

  58. You *BOTH* fail by Khyber · · Score: 4, Informative

    "You set up the camera to capture an image of your eye through the viewfinder. Once captured, this biological reference is embedded as metadata into every photo you take."

    Reading over the technical paper, the camera only needs it once, for up to 5 users. The image of the user(s) iris is then stored in non-volatile RAM. If a person steals and uses the camera, your iris (or whomever it was set for previously) will still be the imprint unless they goe back into the Iris capture mode and does the whole setup process over again. Then again, that's a standard for almost EVERY digital camera out there. Once a mode is set, it remains set until a user changes things. All incarnations of my Kodak and Canon digital camera keep resolution choice, last exposure setting, ISO, etc. until you specifically change it in the menu.

    So in reality, five different people could get royally fucked.

    So much for you morons RTFUCKINGA. Here, let me repost the important part of TFA so you don't have to waste your bandwidth trying to read the page, since you're apparently too lazy to do so anyways:

    Canon's Iris Registration Patent

    A recent Canon patent application (Pub. No.: US 2008/0025574 A1) reveals the next step in digital watermarking - Iris Registration.

    The short and sweet of it?

          1. Turn the Mode dial to "REG"
          2. Choose between "REG 1 through "REG 5 (for up to 5 registered users)
          3. Put eye to viewfinder
          4. Look at display of center distance measurement point
          5. Press the shutter button
          6. Iris image captured
          7. Go shoot

    Additional embedded info can be added later. All metadata will be added to images after you're finished shooting in a collective manner and not for each image. The purpose of the collective tagging, if you will, is to refrain from hampering the camera's speed (frames per second) while shooting.

    I don't think I need to embarrass either of you any further.

    --
    Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
    1. Re:You *BOTH* fail by multisync · · Score: 1

      Interesting.

      My Nikon allows you to enter a comment in the metadata, like say your copyright notice. This doesn't seem any different. I have pics on my website taken with my buddy's Nikon, and they have his copyright notice.

      If you could set the camera to not work unless it was your iris against the viewfinder, that would be pretty cool. This is just another watermark.

      --
      I don't care why you're posting AC
    2. Re:You *BOTH* fail by leenks · · Score: 1

      My Canon cameras offer the same facility, and until I sold my 20D I didn't realise it was still set up with my notice and postcode of 3+ years ago... :)

    3. Re:You *BOTH* fail by BLAG-blast · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      No. We can't both fail. I bet against him winning. If he fails I win, if he doesn't fail, I do. So, YOU FAIL! ;-)

      --
      M0571y H@rml355.
    4. Re:You *BOTH* fail by Sczi · · Score: 1

      We all fial!!1

  59. Re:I am the Paedofinder-General, and I pronounce.. by msuarezalvarez · · Score: 1

    nonce-sense: n. a sense that is used exactly one time.

  60. No way to truly protect images by kylehase · · Score: 1

    While this may help in a copyright case, there's no way to copy proof Internet viewable images without adding artifacts the image itself. Once an image hits someone's screen they can simply use a screen capture program to re-save your image pixel for pixel without all the meta data. The only way to truly watermark an image is to add a visual watermark in an important area that is not likely to be cropped by thieves. The visual watermark will also exist in any duplication. If done properly the watermark should not be easily visible to the naked eye but that would still add some artifacts that may distort the perfection of the original image.

    --
    You want fun, go home and buy a monkey!
  61. Not likely ... by ScrewMaster · · Score: 1

    Canon claims this will help with copyright infringement of photos online.

    At best this will just encourage another RIAA-like lawsuit mill. Ultimately, I don't really see the benefit.

    --
    The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
  62. In next-gen cell phones by Animats · · Score: 1

    This could be useful in cell phones. Validate the owner before allowing financial transactions via phone.

    But, of course, it would really be used to insure that only the registered owner could view DRM-protected content.

  63. I find this to be a fantastic idea by DragonTHC · · Score: 1

    This is something that could really set copyright ahead in the right direction.
    This is what copyright is all about. This one idea is at the essence of copyright.

    Photographers protecting their images

    You can't collect the iris registration of a corporate entity.

    --
    They're using their grammar skills there.
  64. Re:Yet another clueless company doesn't understand by slimak · · Score: 1

    Although watermarking is not my field of expertise, I often attend the watermarking sessions at research conferences because I find them interesting. Current state-of-the art techniques are designed to embed watermarks such that they can survive a significant number of operations including image manipulations and re-compression. It comes down to the fact that the watermark stored is MUCH smaller than the amount of data that can be added to the image (without introducing visually objectionable artifacts). Because of this, the watermark data is redundantly stored and includes error-correction coding (I think the watermarking people call it something else though). A good watermark will be very hard to remove/destroy without making the source image worthless. From what I have seen, watermarks can often survive image retouching and format conversion but are venerable to image distortions (sheers, warps, stretch, etc).

  65. Re:Tagged "gay"? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Dear Sir or Madam,


    Your post has been re-moderated and is currently scoring at +2, Interesting. We regret any inconvenience that this may have caused.


    Sincerely,
    The Anonymous Homophobic Bastard

  66. Glad this is not in place yet. by Shadowlore · · Score: 3, Interesting

    So your photographer gets laser surgery and due to the differences in the outer part of the eye the signature is different and now they don't match their old photos? Yes, LASIK (for example) doesn't affect normal iris scans because those use IR to scan the iris itself. But this apparently takes a picture of the eye. And yes a picture can be affected by eye surgery.

    --
    My Suburban burns less gasoline than your Prius.
  67. First thing I'm going to do with my new camera by DimmO · · Score: 1

    I'm gonna get one and register my arse instead of my iris. take that copyright infringers! I'll have to wash the viewfinder real good afterwards so I don't get pinkeye.

  68. Canon: Making identity theft easy! by (Score.5,+Interestin · · Score: 1

    So Canon are publishing your biometric credentials with each photo you take. The same credentials that are supposed to be used for border controls, access control, drivers licenses, ...

    Brilliant.

  69. I dunno... by Tmack · · Score: 1

    pfff. oh yeah. right. with some "magical hex editor" or something. keep dreaming.

    One of those things gave me like a bagillion dollars once and all I typed into it was
    e d24, 7f, e d25, ff, w, q

    Who knows what they can do to photos????

    tm

    --
    Support TBI Research: http://www.raisinhope.org
  70. You better watch out for that zoom lens then by cheros · · Score: 1

    .. or you'd end up taking a shot of the back of your teeth.

    No, no, don't try to visualise this at breakfast. Just .. don't. :-)

    --
    Insert .sig here. Send no money now. Owner may sue, contents will settle. Batteries not included.
    1. Re:You better watch out for that zoom lens then by DimmO · · Score: 1

      That's not my zoom lens...

  71. Protection against camera theft as well? by WGFCrafty · · Score: 1

    Having had a fairly expensive Canon DSLR stolen, it would seem that this could also be used as some sort of biometric device for allowing access to the camera. A user could set the camera to ask for a PIN code every time you start the camera for the professional photographer who needs uninterrupted shooting, or requiring the PIN every 500 shots or so for the average hobbyist who occasionally uses the camera. While, you may not get the camera back if it was actually stolen, it would at least prevent the thief from getting use out of your camera. It could also allow you display information about the camera owner when a PIN is entered incorrectly possibly allowing a good samaritan to return your precious DSLR to you.

  72. What about easy to write EXIM data first ?!? by cheros · · Score: 1

    I'd prefer a camera that would drop my name or whatever reference in the EXIM field so it's at least stored in the image. At the moment I find make, type, exposure and inside leg measurement makes it there, but not something you can control yourself.

    While I'm at it, does anyone know a good and simple tool to create/edit/zap EXIM data in both interactive and batch mode (for Windows or Linux, I use both because I can't get rid of Outlook yet)? I know that invalidates the upper question a bit, I'm just looking at a way to store image data with the image in a way that it survives my own editing :-).

    --
    Insert .sig here. Send no money now. Owner may sue, contents will settle. Batteries not included.
    1. Re:What about easy to write EXIM data first ?!? by Gori · · Score: 1

      All Nikon DSLRs have the setting to write a custom text to the exif comment field. for example :
      "(c) www.myname.com" is what I do. If you happen to have one, check these instructions for the D200 : http://www.kenrockwell.com/nikon/d200/users-guide/menus-setup.htm#secret They are pretty similar for all nikons.

      --
      Complexity is a measure of our ignorance...
  73. Why do we care about these "artists?" by rhinokitty · · Score: 0

    Why should I sympathize with artists who are willing to be complicit in such draconian measures to protect an outmoded form of creative expression? Isn't the whole point that artists are supposed to be creative?

    It isn't very creative to desperately cling to a form of expression (photography in this instance) that is so efficiently transmitted through digital networks that it no longer is worth doing (financially speaking).

    A great artist would want to give her craft to the world and would find satisfaction in the act of creating, not try to snipe people who they imagine are stealing their "one good idea." The people who don't have very many good ideas are the ones most worried about others "taking" them.

  74. Re:Is it really watermarking if it's in the metada by ncryptd · · Score: 1

    What makes this any better than adding your name or email address to the metadata, as most cameras allow you to do now? Adding your name/e-mail to the metadata is free. This requires you to buy more hardware from Canon.
  75. Not Going To Happen by Corwn+of+Amber · · Score: 1

    Yay! Now at least it's a certain fact set in stone that Nikon will not implement that in less than 20 years anyway). I'm SO going to buy a D70...

    --
    Making laws based on opinions that stem up from false informations leads to witch hunts.
  76. Canon into torture?!? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Oh, iris watermarking, sorry, my bad

  77. Maybe the original meaning of "gay" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Various synonyms:

    happy
    colourful
    strange
    unusual
    bright

  78. metadata stripping tools by ajs318 · · Score: 1

    Yeah, because there's no such thing as a metadata-stripper for jpeg files, is there?

    It can probably be done in about four lines of Perl code, including the #!/usr/bin/perl header.

    --
    Je fume. Tu fumes. Nous fûmes!
  79. Holographic Scale Free Steganography by LaskoVortex · · Score: 1

    I'm thinking the way to do this is for each photographer to register a longish (64 bit) and unique key with a registration authority. This will be his ID. Then, take this key and, for each image, apply it holographically to the noise of the image, in some scale free and non-deterministic manner, such that, if the image is resampled, one can still reconstruct the key unambiguously. The math doesn't come to me immediately, but it would probably be more-or-less trivial to implement, considering the redundancy available with a 7 megapixel image or similar. I smell a patent.

    --
    Just callin' it like I see it.
  80. Another case where your own by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    biometrics is used against you. Some day soon it will be very Very difficult to prove that you really are yourself. Stop using biometric data to authenticate/identify people!! Use a signed message instead, for goodness sakes!!

  81. More Useful For This Feature by Nom+du+Keyboard · · Score: 1

    A more useful use for this feature would be to have your camera refuse to operate for any but its identified owner(s). Make it of less value to thieves.

    --
    "It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
  82. DSRL by cazbar · · Score: 1

    Did anybody else initially misread this as the DSRL?

  83. Real purpose is to prevent marital discord... by spidey3 · · Score: 1

    The one thing I can imagine this really being usefull for is in solving the recurring argument in our household over who took that beautiful shot... Spidey!!!

  84. hmm by TastyCakes · · Score: 1

    But wait, I don't look through the eye piece when I take pictures any more...

  85. Re:Don't look into viewfinder with remaining eyeba by themasonjar · · Score: 1

    Getting the metadata into the image, biometric or otherwise, is the easy part. What would help photographers much more is a way to search for that invisible watermark in order to find copyright infringement. Most of the high-end digital cameras (and copiers) these days already embed the serial number. Imagine typing that number into Google and finding all the places where that image appears. If Canon could patent that in addition to the watermarking procedure, they would make some real money.

  86. Backdoor by X.mpls · · Score: 1

    How secure is this? This seems to be more of a matter of privacy and security than anything. I'm all for copyright infringement, but I really don't want to see the government be able to pick up a photo and be able to trace it back to me. Not only the government, but anyone with the know-how of reading/manipulating the meta-data code.

  87. It's all fun and games... by enoz · · Score: 1

    It's all fun and games until someone loses a digital iris.