Ok... that is constant time that is. Your example blows when there are a millions of objects on the list. (actually when there are only thousands).
I've used the STL a lot, and I have yet to hit a case where an object needed to remove itself from a list. Could you give me an example?
Because in OO land, an object should manage itself including knowing when to remove itself.
If you have yet to come across this problem, you're probably not thinking in an OO way.
Sure, here is an example, a streaming server has a class used to manage a client connection. There is a list of such client connections per stream and each client gets a "copy" of the message to be sent next. A client may terminate the connection at any time or there may be other conditions that will teminate a client connection. So each client object needs to know how to remove itself from the list of clients. When you get down and deep, there are far more examples. Streaming servers can handle 10,000 clients and connections come and go at 100's or more per second on peak loads. It just does not make sense to make this more expensive by having to do a linear seach.
Would you care to back up your assertion with some examples?
Sure, create an object that "knows" how to remove itself from a list and a map. See how many separate object you end up creating simply becase the STL model is too restrictive.
There is a discussion on comp.std.c++ about this. Some would argue that the boost smart pointers (the ones proposed in the standard) are too heavy. Other than that, smart pointers can be as fast as regular pointers if implemented efficiently.
I don't have much to add other than I heartiy agree.
I am concerned that much of the STL is not ideal for real-life applications and I think we might see more of the same with 0x. I certainly have issues with some of the proposals for additions to the STL.
I consider myself an expert on C++ and I have not yet settled on a stable set of techniques as I had done with C. It seems that many people have their sights set that C++ as a better C and in doing so they short change their opportunities with C++ dramatically. This is reflected in some of the STL.
So I adocate strongly for a "slow down" approach and let's see what people really want.
I think what C and C++ really lack is the option to turn on array range checking. Sure you can drop a couple grand for a purify license or learn to use valgrind, but it should be an easy-to-switch compiler option.
This is a compiler feature and nothing to do with the language per se. There is/was a gcc project to do this; basically a purify switch on the compiler. valgrind rocks though, it's far better than purify or anything a compiler switch could do because it works with all code, instrumented or not.
I run an on-line store on the side and certain countries are on the black list. Quite simply, I can't afford the cost of fraud.
While fraud still exists in countries like the USA, Canada, Japan, Australia, UK... etc, the rate of fraud is such that we have yet to encounter it. At the beginning we have fulfilled orders to Hungary and other East European countries and the rate of fraud was about 50%. We simply can't afford that.
Get your government to track down and stop fraud. Still, it will be a **LONG** time before I can justify resuming services to blacklisted countries.
I have a question for you. Would you be interested in purchasing from us if we charged a $US30 surcharge for Hungarian orders and required a money transfer and we only shipped once the funds were in our account and a $US30 + 10% fee for processing returns.
Would you consider this rude and inappropriate ? If you do, then that is why we don't do Hungary.
What the fuck for? Thanks... for not ripping off our work? Thanks... for actually complying with copyright laws? Thanks... for not contributing your changes back to the projects bolstering your profit margins?
If you don't like their product then don't do it. If you do like their product more than alternatives because it is GPL'd (parts of it at least) then it makes sense to let the marketting bods know you like it this way so that they continue to do so. In fact, say that you bought their product specifically becuase it had GPL'd code and in the future you will prefer to buy GPL'd alternatives if they exist.
On the other hand, if you want to use closed source prodcuts and don't care about the GPL buy somthing else.
You choose.
It's not about "thanking them", you did that when you boaught the product, it's about letting the manufacturer know what YOU want as a product.
I'm in the market for a new wireless router, this product is definitly ahead of non-GPL'd alternatives in my purchasing decision tree.
Well you totally misunderstood my post. I will NOT agree with a manager or anyone else if they're wilfully stupid or wrong. I WILL find myself another job where truth and correctness means something.
You seem to be confused with perception and communication vs your activities.
Not everyone reads your acts and good intentions like you do. You need to SELL them.
My post was a suggestion on what kind of steps you can take so that you can be perceived in the best possible way. If you think you have a better system, PLEASE let me know. However, given the tone of you post and your response, it makes me think you'd benefit from some adjustments in this area.
Programming is one of those jobs where physical capacity is secondary to metal agility and experience.
Also laws in various states make it difficult for employers to hire people based on factors that are not directly related to the job at hand.
In other words, if an employer (usually a large one) sends signals that it's hiring people based on age (discriminating the older cadidates), you can bet they'll get legally challenged quick smart.
Responsible employers will GLADLY hire good people over 40 so they look like they are not discrimiating.
... no I don't have any commercial interests in these guys - yet.
There is so much stuff happening in this area. Microsoft is doing all kinds of new things (HELP!!)
Personally, I think it's all going to flop until somthing like the iPod shows up and does everything with a simple little box.
BTW - Gigabit ethernet is the way to go - wired.
I wired up my house any put in plenty of high perf cat5 a while back. I'm sure I can push gigabit down these wires. Most decent servers today can actually saturate a gigabit pipe so you should be able to play even uncompressed (if you're so inclined) video through a gig pipe.
However, I tend to spend so much time on/. I never get around to watching videos or TV so who cares ? - not me!
I've been sacked twice, once explicitly for using Free/libre software (Apache and Perl rather than IIS and ASP - tho' I left the server running NT4, and if I hadn't told them, they wouldn't have known... it wasn't them that had to keep running up to the server room to reboot the damn thing!) and once partly because I kept banging on about Free software and how shit most closed code is. (There were a lot of other factors in the latter, too, like calling a co-worker a fuckwit - in email to my manager. Well, he *was* a fuckwit).
Buddy, you REALLY need to keep this to yourself.
You don't want to come off sounding like a wounded pig now, do you ?
Besides, it seems like you ex-employer had a problem with the f***wit stuff by your own admission.
A few hints on how to manage your manager - for the next time you get into this situation.
Agree with your manager ALLWAYS.
After you agree with said manager. Repeat to manager what was said to you in your own words.
After manager acknowledges your interpretation is correct, PROPOSE an alternative by first stating your goals. Then your methodology.... anything you can find that will give your proposal merit in the EYES of the manager.
Do what your manager decides - even if you think it's bogus. If you think it's especially bogus, write an email to manager person explaining what ghastly things will happen if you pursue the activity being ordered to pursue and that if these things happen, they are responsible. If the problems are not as ghastly as loss of life, you take things too seriously !
Oh... and lastly... never write self incriminating emails.
Your manager is there to help you succeed. If your manager does not think that, then you've got the wrong manager and you need to get out quick smart.
OK - so the subject was a TROLL.. but the point is real.
Open Source software is significantly earier to support because its... well OPEN.
In practice, I have found open source maintainers to be far more motivated at supporting their products than big name corps. Case in point, I ran into trouble with software from that big OS company up in the north west USA. I ended up filing a problem report and after a few days they came back with a "Yep, it's a broken, it MIGHT get fixed, oh let's see, in 2005 !". WHENEVER I've reported a problem on a newsgroup or on a mailing list for open source maintainers, I've usually got a reply within MINUTES... yes minutes... and usually by the engineer who wrote the code. Usual responses are, bug is fixed, get latest release doofball or, I just fixed it and here is your patch or a discussion about alternatives. I've never had to resort to the worst case, which is only an alternative for open source, which is "fix it yourself" ! The worst case for closed source proprietary systems is you're SOL - find a different vendor...
I really need the money right now, out of a job-n-all, so if you want to write a check to me for say $US15,000/month, I'll support ALL the open source software you choose. Terms are negotiable. BTW I extend this offer to ALL corps:) I promise !
We've been sold out. We vote, but we might not like either candidate from either party, so why do we still vote? Easy, it doesn't matter.
Seriously, if you feel that way, you need to start a new party and start messing with the elections by participating as a candidate. If you don't, you're being an irresponsible citizen. Granted, it's going to cost time and effort but you have a much better possibility today when there are so many people feeling left out to dry by their elected officials.
We need the support to defend ourselves and you're just being a naive little prick if you think wars don't happen.
Now now, violence never solved any problems...:)
All I'm trying to say is call a spade a spade. The snow job of modern politics is letting the worst things happen. The US snow job is far more dire than that in Australia. The Europeans governments are much better at giving their constituents the things they need.
For all the wealth the US has, it has far more poor, it's prisons are overflowing, the legal system is trigger happy and the shools are political agents and underfunded at that. Yet it just wrote a $US3000 check to each Iraqi for getting rid of Saddam and his yet to be found WMD's ! I've written some pretty big tax checks or cheques but I have yet to see anything but a tax refund.
Enough is enough. Get rid of the media conglomerates. Let no-one have more that 2% control of any media nation-wide. Kill the politics of blurring the issues and raise the education level, don't dumb down the populous. Make college and university education available to everyone.
I reckon America's tops. I also live in a democracy (Australia). In a democracy, the people are the govt.
Are you kidding ?
Hate to prick your bubble but Australia is a puppet to the U.S. Look at the copyright and other nonsense laws that have been passed lately.
Those pollies you speak of play a game to highlist the least important issues and make you think they did well. Why did John Howard send troops to Iraq ? Do you REALLY think it had anything to do with WMD - heck no. He knows that there is no way that Australia is able to defend itself and if someone decided to attach, he'd call in all his favours on the US. So you see, Australia is just an extension of the USA, politics or not.
Keep on living the dream that you pewny vote every coupla years does anything meaningful. Most of the voters are too snowed by the media to really understand what's going on. This "government for the people" you speak of is just another snow job.
Look at how the Australian corps are doing - check out AMP. Whose palms got greased on those f-ups ? There is a string of them.
Besides all this disingenuity, it's still not so bad. But, it COULD be a whole lot better.
So what happened to the theory that only megacorps could use patents? Seems like one guy named Charley can do it.
So exactly who do you think will benefit from these patents ?
What I mean is that big corporations would love to pay for a patent if it means that their competitors are squeezed out of existance. So you see, a frivolous patent that costs big bucks that nukes your competitor is exactly what the doctor ordered. I've seen this happen too often in my career where the marketeers and the lawyers buy up some waste of a license instead of doing the right thing and fighting the patent. Do your own search, they are well documented.
Yes, the "circular transportation facilitation device" patent has been awarded to John Keogh.
Patents are becoming very difficult to validate because of the extreme number of patents and the extreme levels of knowlege to validate patents. However, this situation plays directly into the hands of the big corporations and rich lawyers squeezing out the very people that patents were set out to protect in the first place.
Large corporations love this scenario, they love to pay for patents to squeeze out the smaller players. I have yet to find a large corporation that does not play this game. Do a google search on "abuse frivolous patent" and you will find scores of well documented patent abuse cases.
The only way to fix this is to come up with another system and legislate out of the current abuse. Start screaming to your nearest congresscritter/minister.
I'm convinced now more than ever that the political systems need to be better controlled by people with a clue and a genuine interest in helping the whole and not the wealthy campaign donating individual.
Posting yet another case of patent abuse is just plain boring, doing somthing about it would pick my interest.
One shouldn't immediately assume that there are only 2 operating systems in the world. There are a slew more than that, especially in the embedded device arena.
Practically speaking, there really are only 2 - open source ones, and closed source ones ! I prefer the open sourced ones.
The intent of my original post still applies. Just change s/Microsoft/VxWorks/g.
Slashdot Mirror
If shared_ptr had a few more things I'd be happy about this. As it stands I think this is a big mistake for 0x.
How do you handle polymorphism if you only use STL containers ?
Ok ... that is constant time that is. Your example blows when there are a millions of objects on the list. (actually when there are only thousands).
I've used the STL a lot, and I have yet to hit a case where an object needed to remove itself from a list. Could you give me an example?
Because in OO land, an object should manage itself including knowing when to remove itself.
If you have yet to come across this problem, you're probably not thinking in an OO way.
Sure, here is an example, a streaming server has a class used to manage a client connection. There is a list of such client connections per stream and each client gets a "copy" of the message to be sent next. A client may terminate the connection at any time or there may be other conditions that will teminate a client connection. So each client object needs to know how to remove itself from the list of clients. When you get down and deep, there are far more examples. Streaming servers can handle 10,000 clients and connections come and go at 100's or more per second on peak loads. It just does not make sense to make this more expensive by having to do a linear seach.
They are making it the standard.
You'd better speak up now or forever hold your peace.
Sure, create an object that "knows" how to remove itself from a list and a map. See how many separate object you end up creating simply becase the STL model is too restrictive.
There is a discussion on comp.std.c++ about this. Some would argue that the boost smart pointers (the ones proposed in the standard) are too heavy. Other than that, smart pointers can be as fast as regular pointers if implemented efficiently.
I don't have much to add other than I heartiy agree.
I am concerned that much of the STL is not ideal for real-life applications and I think we might see more of the same with 0x. I certainly have issues with some of the proposals for additions to the STL.
I consider myself an expert on C++ and I have not yet settled on a stable set of techniques as I had done with C. It seems that many people have their sights set that C++ as a better C and in doing so they short change their opportunities with C++ dramatically. This is reflected in some of the STL.
So I adocate strongly for a "slow down" approach and let's see what people really want.
/g
I run an on-line store on the side and certain countries are on the black list. Quite simply, I can't afford the cost of fraud.
While fraud still exists in countries like the USA, Canada, Japan, Australia, UK ... etc, the rate of fraud is such that we have yet to encounter it. At the beginning we have fulfilled orders to Hungary and other East European countries and the rate of fraud was about 50%. We simply can't afford that.
Get your government to track down and stop fraud. Still, it will be a **LONG** time before I can justify resuming services to blacklisted countries.
I have a question for you. Would you be interested in purchasing from us if we charged a $US30 surcharge for Hungarian orders and required a money transfer and we only shipped once the funds were in our account and a $US30 + 10% fee for processing returns.
Would you consider this rude and inappropriate ? If you do, then that is why we don't do Hungary.
If you don't like their product then don't do it. If you do like their product more than alternatives because it is GPL'd (parts of it at least) then it makes sense to let the marketting bods know you like it this way so that they continue to do so. In fact, say that you bought their product specifically becuase it had GPL'd code and in the future you will prefer to buy GPL'd alternatives if they exist.
On the other hand, if you want to use closed source prodcuts and don't care about the GPL buy somthing else.
You choose.
It's not about "thanking them", you did that when you boaught the product, it's about letting the manufacturer know what YOU want as a product.
I'm in the market for a new wireless router, this product is definitly ahead of non-GPL'd alternatives in my purchasing decision tree.
vulture capitalist
You seem to be confused with perception and communication vs your activities.
Not everyone reads your acts and good intentions like you do. You need to SELL them.
My post was a suggestion on what kind of steps you can take so that you can be perceived in the best possible way. If you think you have a better system, PLEASE let me know. However, given the tone of you post and your response, it makes me think you'd benefit from some adjustments in this area.
Yours truly - ozzee
Did that count as a challenge ?
Because, if it is, you're on !
CHICKEN ?
Programming is one of those jobs where physical capacity is secondary to metal agility and experience.
Also laws in various states make it difficult for employers to hire people based on factors that are not directly related to the job at hand.
In other words, if an employer (usually a large one) sends signals that it's hiring people based on age (discriminating the older cadidates), you can bet they'll get legally challenged quick smart.
Responsible employers will GLADLY hire good people over 40 so they look like they are not discrimiating.
Check these guys. http://www.pandora.com/pdms/
There is so much stuff happening in this area. Microsoft is doing all kinds of new things (HELP!!)
Personally, I think it's all going to flop until somthing like the iPod shows up and does everything with a simple little box.
BTW - Gigabit ethernet is the way to go - wired.
I wired up my house any put in plenty of high perf cat5 a while back. I'm sure I can push gigabit down these wires. Most decent servers today can actually saturate a gigabit pipe so you should be able to play even uncompressed (if you're so inclined) video through a gig pipe.
However, I tend to spend so much time on /. I never get around to watching videos or TV so who cares ? - not me!
Buddy, you REALLY need to keep this to yourself.
You don't want to come off sounding like a wounded pig now, do you ?
Besides, it seems like you ex-employer had a problem with the f***wit stuff by your own admission.
A few hints on how to manage your manager - for the next time you get into this situation.
Your manager is there to help you succeed. If your manager does not think that, then you've got the wrong manager and you need to get out quick smart.
Open Source software is significantly earier to support because its ... well OPEN.
In practice, I have found open source maintainers to be far more motivated at supporting their products than big name corps. Case in point, I ran into trouble with software from that big OS company up in the north west USA. I ended up filing a problem report and after a few days they came back with a "Yep, it's a broken, it MIGHT get fixed, oh let's see, in 2005 !". WHENEVER I've reported a problem on a newsgroup or on a mailing list for open source maintainers, I've usually got a reply within MINUTES ... yes minutes ... and usually by the engineer who wrote the code. Usual responses are, bug is fixed, get latest release doofball or, I just fixed it and here is your patch or a discussion about alternatives. I've never had to resort to the worst case, which is only an alternative for open source, which is "fix it yourself" ! The worst case for closed source proprietary systems is you're SOL - find a different vendor ...
I really need the money right now, out of a job-n-all, so if you want to write a check to me for say $US15,000/month, I'll support ALL the open source software you choose. Terms are negotiable. BTW I extend this offer to ALL corps :) I promise !
Seriously, if you feel that way, you need to start a new party and start messing with the elections by participating as a candidate. If you don't, you're being an irresponsible citizen. Granted, it's going to cost time and effort but you have a much better possibility today when there are so many people feeling left out to dry by their elected officials.
Do read on. The next thing that happened was an election. Mr Whitlam got whipped by that same populous that was so stunned.
Good 'ol Gough was a great guy and WAAAYY ahead of his time. He was also naieve. Seems like they go hand in hand.
Now now, violence never solved any problems... :)
All I'm trying to say is call a spade a spade. The snow job of modern politics is letting the worst things happen. The US snow job is far more dire than that in Australia. The Europeans governments are much better at giving their constituents the things they need.
For all the wealth the US has, it has far more poor, it's prisons are overflowing, the legal system is trigger happy and the shools are political agents and underfunded at that. Yet it just wrote a $US3000 check to each Iraqi for getting rid of Saddam and his yet to be found WMD's ! I've written some pretty big tax checks or cheques but I have yet to see anything but a tax refund.
Enough is enough. Get rid of the media conglomerates. Let no-one have more that 2% control of any media nation-wide. Kill the politics of blurring the issues and raise the education level, don't dumb down the populous. Make college and university education available to everyone.
Are you kidding ?
Hate to prick your bubble but Australia is a puppet to the U.S. Look at the copyright and other nonsense laws that have been passed lately.
Those pollies you speak of play a game to highlist the least important issues and make you think they did well. Why did John Howard send troops to Iraq ? Do you REALLY think it had anything to do with WMD - heck no. He knows that there is no way that Australia is able to defend itself and if someone decided to attach, he'd call in all his favours on the US. So you see, Australia is just an extension of the USA, politics or not.
Keep on living the dream that you pewny vote every coupla years does anything meaningful. Most of the voters are too snowed by the media to really understand what's going on. This "government for the people" you speak of is just another snow job.
Look at how the Australian corps are doing - check out AMP. Whose palms got greased on those f-ups ? There is a string of them.
Besides all this disingenuity, it's still not so bad. But, it COULD be a whole lot better.
So exactly who do you think will benefit from these patents ?
What I mean is that big corporations would love to pay for a patent if it means that their competitors are squeezed out of existance. So you see, a frivolous patent that costs big bucks that nukes your competitor is exactly what the doctor ordered. I've seen this happen too often in my career where the marketeers and the lawyers buy up some waste of a license instead of doing the right thing and fighting the patent. Do your own search, they are well documented.
Yes, the "circular transportation facilitation device" patent has been awarded to John Keogh.
Patents are becoming very difficult to validate because of the extreme number of patents and the extreme levels of knowlege to validate patents. However, this situation plays directly into the hands of the big corporations and rich lawyers squeezing out the very people that patents were set out to protect in the first place.
Large corporations love this scenario, they love to pay for patents to squeeze out the smaller players. I have yet to find a large corporation that does not play this game. Do a google search on "abuse frivolous patent" and you will find scores of well documented patent abuse cases.
The only way to fix this is to come up with another system and legislate out of the current abuse. Start screaming to your nearest congresscritter/minister.
I'm convinced now more than ever that the political systems need to be better controlled by people with a clue and a genuine interest in helping the whole and not the wealthy campaign donating individual.
Posting yet another case of patent abuse is just plain boring, doing somthing about it would pick my interest.
Practically speaking, there really are only 2 - open source ones, and closed source ones ! I prefer the open sourced ones.
The intent of my original post still applies. Just change s/Microsoft/VxWorks/g.
Is Replay using a GNU licenced OS ? So I changed my tune, hey, WTH, this is SLASH dot.
And, no, I'm not anti-Microsoft. I have NO love for MS, but I am PRO linux.