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SonicBlue (Replay/Rio) Bought By D&M
An anonymous reader writes "Here's the announcement that many have been waiting for all week. Yesterday, the ReplayTV and Rio product lines of now-defunct SonicBlue were auctioned off in a bankruptcy court. Despite earlier negotiations failing to result in a deal, the Japanese holding company D&M, makers of high-end Denon and Marantz stereo gear, bought the product lines for $36.2 million. The big question is what about all of the "lifetime subscriptions" that people bought? No answers as of yet, but we can all be hopeful."
Only $36.2 million? That's really not that much for an entire line of TiVO-like products. It sounds to me like D&M might make a killing off this investment, if they play their cards right.
Cyde Weys Musings - Scrutinizing the inscrutable
Heh, "...until death (or hostile takeovers, bankruptcy etc) do us part ...." =]
So much for life time support I guess. However, Rio was a good brand a while back, so I hope the new company continues it's services.
Veni, Vidi, Velcro!
But Still, smart people should just get a cheap linux box and make a meadia center out of it. Seams to be the best path to me
Lifetime support has always meant the lifetime of the company. They got what they paid for; it was a gamble, and, unfortunately, they lost.
Silicon Valley Biz Ink is indicating that all current customers will be retained. Hopefully, it works out that way.
-- I
Interesting....this is a paradigm shift for D&M, as they've typically invested their R&D on the high-end of the audiophile spectrum. I'm somewhat perplexed by what they hope to accomplish with buying a line of low-end audio devices...
Rule #1 -- Politics always trumps technology.
INAL, but if D&M continues the ReplayTV "Name" (ie, they purchased the name, not just the products) then they should have to honor the agreement. If the company all of a sudden become "D & M R-TV", or even "ReplayTV+" then the current owners might be screwed. Hopefully, they'll honor the current agreement, or only charge a small "transfer" fee.
From the service agreement...
SonicBlue
REPLAYTV Digital Video Recorder
Activation and Service Agreement
This Agreement applies to your use of the ReplayTV Service and is a legally binding agreement between you, SONICblue Incorporated and its wholly owned subsidiary, ReplayTV Inc. (collectively "ReplayTV"). By clicking the button marked "I Agree" below or by otherwise communicating your acceptance to ReplayTV or by using the ReplayTV Service, you agree to all the terms and conditions in this Agreement. IMPORTANT NOTE: Your ReplayTV digital video recorder works only by activating and receiving the ReplayTV Service offered and provided by ReplayTV. If you do not agree with all the terms and conditions of this Agreement, you are not authorized to use the ReplayTV Service, and you may return the ReplayTV unit to ReplayTV or the authorized retailer from whom you purchased the product for a full refund within one (1) month of the original purchase date.
www.christopherlewis.com
The big question is what about all of the "lifetime subscriptions" that people bought?
I'm pretty sure D&M would've had to have bought out any and all contracts that SonicBlue had held, too. If they haven't bought the company outright, I don't think they're obligated to any service contracts or anything like that.
As somebody pointed out above, a lifetime contract means the lifetime of the company. Pretty rare that you'll find a sucker willing to take on the responsibility of assisting a previously installed user base-- it's usually not worth the money.
I've been a replaytv user for 3+ years and considering how much effort it takes to support the subscriptions, I'm assuming they will honor the lifetime subscriptions to keep customers loyal.
I mean, how much effort could it take to download a bunch of schedules from tvguide or whoever, encrypt them into the proprietary replaytv format, and put them on an FTP site. For the broadband users, they're done. For dialup, they need a simple agreement with a national ISP to support a few thousand 5 minute calls every night.
Why do I h8 apple?
"D&M Holdings intends to keep all ReplayTV
customers and will design, manufacture and distribute a line of ReplayTV and
Rio products."
Sounds like they plan on continuing as normal. Hopefully D&M won't be buryied like Sonic Blue.
"(I) have this unfortunate condition that causes me not to believe a single thing any politician says when a mic's on.
http://www.twice.com/index.asp?layout=story_stocks &articleid=CA66618
The install base of replaytv systems is 100000 units. That's 100,000.
D&M will need to make a deal with AOL for dial-up guide updates...
"....what about all of the "lifetime subscriptions" that people bought?"
That is exactly why I have never taken the plunge. I don't want to invest in hardware that (more or less) requires the company to be around for it to work properly. For example, the only broadband options in my area are fixed point wireless. The problem is that I have to invest $500 in the hardware. What happens when they disappear in a year or two? I am stuck with useless hardware (unless someone else offers the service).
I guess the dot com mess is still fresh in my mind...
yeah, but how many of those are dial-up and how many are broadband?
Consider this:
1. When broadband support was first announced 3 years ago (after replaytv had been in business 2 years), the reasoning behind it was that over 85% of replaytv customers had broadband access at home (cable/dsl/isdn)
2. All of the devices since then have focused on broadband (any model 4000+)
I'm assuming that, at most, the dial up need is in the low 10's of thousands, not in the 100's of thousands
Why do I h8 apple?
Both Denon and Marantz make pretty high quality products and some nice higher end audio and video equipment. This looks a nice aquisition for them so they can expand their product line in a nice progressive way. They already make good DVD players and receivers, now they can add a media center device that will allow DVR capabilities and MP3 music libraries.
I do have a feeling that they will somewhat support the Replay TV customers, but they will no do any additional development. My guess is they will come out with their own unit and offer Replay TV owners deep discounts if they trade in. They are not going to want to support someone else's service.
is the software fix a firmware flash? you might try flashing the firmware with a different version.
Denon and Marantz has a very solid core business - home audio entertainment. It's a well-respected, much-loved brand.
The likelyhood of D&M running into financial difficulties is slim, simply because their traditional businesses are cash cows. Even if the SonicBlue division (whatever it ends up being called) makes a loss, D&M will be fine (short of some vey serious mismanagement).
It's like Microsoft and Hotmail - even if Hotmail was to sink like lead, the money that Microsoft makes from its other businesses would more than keep it afloat.
As someone else has said, $36.2 million to buy yourself a major slice of the PVR market (not to mention portable digital music players) is a steal.
"Accept that some days you are the pigeon, and some days you are the statue." - David Brent, Wernham Hogg
I hope the ReplayTV stays around because it is as addictive as crack. I tried watching TV at a friends house and it was like going through withdrawl. I couldn't commercial skip and I was stuck watching whatever happened to be on at the time.
I felt like a caveman stuck watching the same old rerun of "Fire".
Lifetime agreement: A fanciful mechanism whereby companies can charge the prices they really want to charge for a service but realize that no one will go for it as it is too high. For further explanation, see also Straight hooks and tartan paint
--My sig is bigger than your sig--
Is anyone else hoping that they bring the Empeg back to life? I bought the Mark IIa when SonicBlue shut down production for a mere 300 bucks and I can say that it's the greatest MP3 player on the planet. Its been several years since the player was released and there's still an active community that builds all kinds of crazy software for the stereo (partly due to the fact that it runs linux).
later,
ajay
PS. And OGG support is coming soon!
Or maybe you should just worry about something important!
Globe199
...those usually are void once the company goes under. You basically have a lifetime guarentee as long as the company is around, which is why it only really means something when the company has been around a long time, like Sears for example.
If the agreement is anything like that, the buyers of the assets can in theory say that since the original company is gone, they don't have to continue the service but they can offer them a new service, just like the old one, at a higher price.
SecondPageMedia - Wha
A lot of people bought lifetime subscriptions--in the beginning, that was the only option--but I think there are still a lot of ReplayTV owners paying the monthly fee. If D&M keeps the channel guide servers going for those folks, how much would it really cost them to let the lifetime subscribers dial in too (literally, or figuratively for the broadband units)?
If D&M are going to continue the Replay line, they would be crazy not honor Rio's lifetime subscriptions. Subscribers are assets.
Not only do you get a chance to upgrade them to next model, the eyeballs themselves must have some value. Marketing departments are constantly trying to develop channels like these subscriptions, and they are willing to pay for them.
It costs big $$$ to develop the guide data, but costs very little to distribute it more widely to these lifetime subscribers. By not honoring the agreement, it will cost them a lot in goodwill.
Of course, I can see them maybe offering lifetime subscribers a year or two of free service and then maybe making them pay, too. But it seems like there is an advantage of not making these people feel cheated. Cheated customers never return and they complain a lot (LOUDLY!).
(I'm glad I am a happy Tivo user.)
Does someone have a link to a story that explains why SonicBLue could not keep there heads above water? To me it looks like they had won the battle of getting their products (portable Mp3's and CD based Mp3's) on just above every available shelf of every willing retail shop (Circuit City, Best Buy, CompUSA, etc.) Which considering a lot of high quality, sometimes obscure, sometimes better priced competitive products never even got in the door. And considering that most buyers do not want to go through the hassle of ordering the alternatives from some fly by night japanese web site and waiting 6-8 weeks for delivery if they ever deliver it all, requiring a credit card, some shady Ebay megadealer and all the other pitfalls of ordering online VS. walking into a brick and morter in any of the lower 48. Bottom line -- is it a weakness in the end user market that caused the downfall, is it the fact that the market is not as wide spread as conventional CD players, or DVD players, or TV's??? It is just hard for me to comprehend as to why a company that had such a monopolistic foothold in the brick and mortars could not at least break even.......
(+1 Funny) only if I laugh out loud.
Looks like the Bankruptcy case for Sonic Blue will be held in the Northern District of California Bankruptcy court. Judge Marilyn Morgan is hearing the case. Here is a link about the sale of Replay and Rio: Sale of Replay, Tues 15th April 2003 ~Robert
Yep, anthony started the company and decided to offer 'lifetime subscriptions.'
He starts things up, not keep things running, I sold replay a couple years ago, but lifetime subscriptions still honored.
Sonic Blue decides to piss off the content providers that sue them out of existance, will D&M now honor the subscription?
They don't have to.
I'm not sure why everyone was/is such a fan of Sonic Blue and the other various bastard children of Diamond. I've had and seen nothing but problems with thier products. Shoddy workmanship, disposable products and low quality output.
My Rio Volt 250 lasted 2 months, my brothers PVR was nothing but trouble, their video cards back in the day suffered driver issues for years after initial release.
GOOD RIDDANCE! It sounds like D&M may be able to take the popularity of the name and turn out an adequate product.
Of course I am a freaking idiot and my opinion is probably usesless... I guess that's why I was given MOD points today, so I would STFU... but my dislike for SB, Rio, DiamondMM etc. overcame my deisre for an over rated sense of power and control.
Here's another one:
I'm not an "audiophile" if by audiophile you mean "sucker." People who spend a ton of money on this stuff are buying some VERY overpriced equipment. Just because something is the most expensive in the world doesn't make it the best. And tubes? Yeah, you can make a good amp with tubes, but you can make just as good or better of and amp with transistors. (Guitar amps are a slightly different story.) Saying something has tubes, doesn't necessarily make it good.
I've decided to stick to pro-audio gear for all new audio purchases. There's just something stupid about spending $200 on unbalanced phono cables, but "audiophilies" have no problem with that. Nor do they seem to have a problem with $1000 speaker cables, etc.
If you're going to spend a ton of money on your audio system, I suggest you buy the same things a recording studio buys.
Just to show you guys are being a pompus asses, here's a brochure from quad:
here
check out those power amp specs: 108 db SNR
Now lets go look at some pro gear:
Check out the specs. page for this Crown amplifier.
SNR 120dB
People "in the know" don't buy that ridiculously overpriced "high end" stuff, they buy pro grear. It performs wonderfully, takes abuse, and costs less.
Life is too short to proofread.
The $36.2 million was for BOTH ReplayTV AND Rio. Not sure how it splits out, but for BOTH divisions, it seems like a steal.
My mom always said, "Jim, you're 1 in a million." Given the current population, there are 7000 of me. God help us all!
...to honor lifetime subscribers. The same thing happened to Wolf camera. Senior citizens received a lifetime membership if they joined (1 year renewal periods for everyone else). After Ritz camera bought out wolf camera, they stopped honoring senior lifetime memberships.
Ok. I've been eyeing the sunfire line (cinema grand, and theater grand lines). From what I've HEARD, their pre-amp's arn't that good at the video switching, but are find for audio. The thing that really interests me though is their 'step down transformer' amps. How do they sound to you? The lack of heat, and the nice power ratings are good pros, but it's a rather un-orthodox way of amping a signal (and in this day of surround sound, I'm not sure if the assumptions will hold up).
:-)
I know that I really should just go and listen to them (and I will if I ever go to buy one), but I'm lazy, so I'm asking you.
Zapman
"(I'm glad I am a happy Tivo user.)"
You shouldn't be. They are bending over backwards to be friendly to the RIAA and MPAA. Replay made their sets very consumer friendly. Like the ability to transfer movies back and forth between your PC and their units. Tivo wants to lock it's users into it's own platform - and so they only allow transfers between Tivo units.
The holding company (D&M) is a typo...
;)
Thats actually supposed to read "D.R.M."
Ripping an new rectum in the fabric of spacetime.
Replay has publically positioned themselves from very early on as more of a high-end PVR maker, thus the inclusion of higher capacities and networking capability earlier than Tivo. This strategy probably cost them a lot of business so they've softened their stance and tried to push down into the more mainstream market but it doesn't change their original intent.
As a fan of both companies I can't help but be encouraged for the time being.
Onkyo products are typically competitive across the board with Denon, it's more a matter of personal preference. The upper hand between them switches back and forth at various times but they typically both have a solid product for any component that will be of good quality but not excessively expensive (for people who like their gear at least). Both are well-known enough that some of their products will show up at a mainstream electronics store, but the bulk of their line would usually only be seen at a specialty retailer.
How is this market assessed? It seems like everyone I know is getting a pvr.
I'm a little confused as to why people are worried about the lifetime subscriptions now that D&M have said that they'll keep producing a ReplayTV line.
As the parent subject said, "Think $$$." I mean, they'll be producing a product that needs the program listings which need to be accessible nation-wide... now how much does it cost to let the existing users dial in and get the data D&M's already made? (especially compared to the uproar users would make if they had to pay for service again)
They have to prepare and maintain the same listings for the new products they're going to sell, so what's the big deal with giving the old users access as well?
Seriously - is there something I'm missing? Does no one else share my point of view?
Which is interesting, because Philips has a lo of interest in TiVo - at least judging from the fact that Philips branded TiVo's are (or used to be, until recently) available on the market.
Are we, perhaps, seeing a consolidation of the major players (TiVo and ReplayTV)? That can only be good, because the PVR market is still too small this consolidation to be considered a monopoly.
Sig-Na-Cher