Re:Hate to put a damper on the celebration
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Diablo III Released
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· Score: 1
But the main reason for D3 being ready for so long and being so long in the making was figuring out a drm scheme. That's whats taking time with the next StarCraft game as well.
Are you aware that D3 uses the same engine that StarCraft does?
Re:Long term support, removal of security, etc
on
Diablo III Released
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· Score: 1
Anyone remember Rage? Who played that on the first day? first week?
People using hardware without shit OpenGL drivers? *Cough* ATI/AMD
Um...because the government is the cause of that "any loss of data" and, again, due to at best a questionable basis?.. But, then it's a bit much to claim a third party who erased them or prevented access isn't at all to blame or liable just because the host themselves claims a lack of liability.
It's not the fault of the Police (Government in this case) that MegaUpload (and their users) thought it wise to break the law and eventually suffered the consequences ultimately where their users paid the price. Fact: Their own terms of service say to make a copy. If they had this copy they wouldn't be up shit creek. Why is this such a challenge to grasp? Responsibility for choosing a poor backup strategy rests on the user's shoulders, as the choice was theirs alone to make. No amount of blathering will change the fact that keeping things in an unsafe location is not smart. You've already agreed that MegaUpload's business model isn't sound. Shit happens, the best way to mitigate loss it is plan for it. These people didn't do their homework or simply don't care, actions speak louder than words here. I'm repeating myself, anyway we've got different opinions and I thank you for sharing yours.
My point is, if you're concerned with the absolute of "access to my files" against an "Eye of Sauren", to raise the stakes of "access to my life" would seem to blame all the dead civilians in a war zone because they don't care enough.
I'm not talking about war zones, or one's life, this thread is about backing up files (and the piss poor judgement of many involved). Equating any of this crap to dead people trivializes death and strife, you're better than that so stop doing it. Full Stop.
In the end, the main thrust of my point wasn't to claim uploaders were blameless. It was to note that a reasonable person could have lost a file that they had backed up because their backup hosting site went down; ie, their second basket was lost. And since the Eye of Sauron was responsible, it's a bit hard to act like it was the uploaders fault. So, yes, they should have done more if they wanted to keep accessing those files. And if that's all you really care about, well, feel free to have a hole reserved in your yard and another yard to keep your safety box with backups of all your files.
In MegaUpload's terms of service (which I cannot directly link since the site is offline, and the robots.txt prevents Archive.org to pull of a cached version of it, and since it's been offline long enough to not be listed in the public Google Cache) I'll link you to an excerpt of someone referencing their terms of service.
"...A Justice Department spokesman told DigitalTrends that, in this case, users didn’t have a right to expect their files back, because Megaupload had warned them on its terms-of-service and website FAQ to make copies of their files and that the users assumed responsibility for any loss of data..." Source: GCN (http://s.tt/1aAHU) Emphasis mine.
The TOS says specifically that the user needs to make copies. Nobody forced them to use the service, they willingly agreed to these terms to create their accounts. If you don't like the terms then don't do business with the company. You seem like an intelligent and rational person, surely you can see the mistake of agreeing to things that you've not read first, why is it any different here?
I wouldn't trust any third party, be it through the internet or through a local bank. I mean, if the Eye of Sauron is really that interested, at that point they'd have to go after me directly anyways, so that's about the best security I could have.
Even on your person there is no where things are safe in a country really. All businesses must follow laws in their respective countries. Seizures can and do happen, the US is not special in this regard.
Why? Would you serious upload hundreds or thousands of office documents to Megaupload?
I wouldn't, but users of the site collectively did. I'd be very curious to see what the make up of the stored data was. Regardless, it's easy to do using something called an archive (tar, zip, rar, 7z etc.). People uploaded gigs of binary data in bite sized files to the site.
I mean, how often has the hammer been dropped on the RIAA or MPAA as an organization with members seemingly dedicated to questionable accounting practices and hence questionable tax returns?
I'll raise you Hollywood accounting practices and tax haven countries. Parasites the lot of them.
*I don't believe the US government is the Eye of Sauron. But, certainly, the US government has shown a rather callous disregard for [non-US or its armed/government/contracted affiliates] life in war. Or do you believe that all those civilians in Afghanistan had it coming because they chose not to leave and would not or could not sufficient disassociate themselves from the Taliban? Because it's not like the US bothers to check your party affiliation card before they start dropping bombs. And as much as they may try to prevent needless death, bombs aren't precision weapons. So, yea, if you care about your life, you'd just leave the country and the only people left would be "the bad guys". But that's woefully unrealistic. Thankfully, the stakes with Megaupload are trivial in comparison. So, odds are good, granny might have lost access to but one of those adorable bundle of pictures of her grandson's doggy.
And you said I went off the deep end. We're talking about people who chose a poor place to back up files not villagers, not Afghans in a war zone, not politics. Turning this into an emotional argument will not advance the discussion.
By posting it online to a social networking site you're not keeping it private and you have no expectation of privacy (here too). It's a giant site dedicated to sharing information, it's not a phone booth, or a rest room, or job interview.
If you want to talk to your friends or brag about drugs, skipping school/work, lying about a disability etc. why not do it the old fashioned way? Writing it down leaves a paper trail; which is why when privacy is concerned things are done face to face.
The overall trend of the judiciary seems to be moving toward greater permissiveness for e-discovery with regard to social media, as well as a strong likelihood that privacy concerns will be outweighed by the weight and relevance of the information.
Since I can't pull up the MegaUpload site to quote you the terms of service, and it's not listed on Archive.org or in an accessible Google Cache I'll have to cite another source.
"...A Justice Department spokesman told DigitalTrends that, in this case, users didn’t have a right to expect their files back, because Megaupload had warned them on its terms-of-service and website FAQ to make copies of their files and that the users assumed responsibility for any loss of data..." Source: GCN (http://s.tt/1aAHU) Emphasis mine.
You can be blamed for not locking your home, but the thief still goes to jail.
The service they're using tells them to do something and they don't do it I fail to see why this is anyone's problem but their own. Not following directions is your own fault.
To argue that it's a fault of not having enough baskets when two should have been sufficient and would have been
You say it's not their fault, then what happened to their copy? If you lose your copy (and it's obviously important since you're backing it up) you replace it ASAP to keep up the duplication. Why didn't this happen?
I want you to answer this honestly, in your opinion:
Is it or is it not a good idea to back up files at a place where illegally distributed software/music/movies are hosted?
Is doing business with a company that willingly and knowingly breaks laws in host country where they do business a sound idea?
Do you consider it wise risking your data disappearing when the Eye of Sauron/authorities gaze may focus on it at any point in time and deny you access?
If you answer yes to any of these the backup strategy is flawed and you might be in for a surprise. Remember these 500 servers were located in a country where what they were doing is illegal (this is not open for dispute, it's not legal distribute files which you do not have the rights to, or to pay people who participate in this behavior). It's simple honestly, if there are important files which need to be kept you make backups and keep these backups in a safe place. The affected users failed at the safe place part.
I do *not* believe the files lost were in the millions but likely at most in the thousands
I have millions of files on my HD, with ~500 servers let's use a Wild Ass Guess at 500gb per machine on the low end it's easy to see it being in the millions if thinking about office documents and the like.
I mean, I'd be at least a little less sickened if you were to say something like BLAHBLAHBLAH... It sickens me how you want to whitewash and distort the situation instead of just acknowledging what happened.
You seem to want to make this about who is right and wrong, which is easy: MegaUpload's business model is flawed. I'm approaching this from the "I want access to my files" stand point. If I wanted to gamble I'd go to Las Vegas. As we all know part of the learning process involves making mistakes. Hopefully these "villagers" as you put it have learned a valuable lesson about who they do business with, and how to make effective backups, and the company has learned to follow laws where they do business. Seems to me if MegaUpload gave a shit this whole situation could've been avoided and the villagers would be happy.
"Private" information posted online, especially to Facebook, is not private. It's like writing something in a public (the internet) and saying I can keep a secret but the people I tell cannot. From the same generation who posts their exploits to Youtube/Twitter/Facebook.
My point was that you don't put all your eggs in one basket. I've had HDs go bad, I've had servers at a hosting facility with no backup fail (which was expendable data, hence why it wasn't backed up at the co-location, and I have several local copies on the network) I have more than one back up for stuff that matters. For extremely sensitive digital stuff gets burned and stored in a safe deposit box and in my safe. One of the hardest to replace things families lose in house fires are photos. This is the same reason I mirror code hosted through source control because shit happens.
You blather on about people losing their files (millions of them!) who made the mistake of putting their eggs in one basket. What happened to personal responsibility? They made a bad choice. Do you see the flaw of their reasoning yet? This is an issue which has been solved (to have multiple copies) and FFS why would you use MegaUpload for sensitive things, are you that much of a dolt? Why not use RapidShare for your taxes?! LOL
They seized that website and caused millions of people to lose their files
I agree with your sentiments and the overall point you're trying to make. It bothers me when people put all of their eggs in one basket and something unforeseen happens. If I understand your claim correctly when users upload a file to a website, the original file disappears? This is akin to people who don't test backups, while it sucks, it's your own damned fault.
India will get away with this exactly once. After that, I assure you that the Indian people are the one's who will take the worst of it. They won't even know that there are better cancer meds being sold outside their country.
I appreciate the insight, next time my guess is it won't involve a patent but corporate espionage or reverse engineering. India has the ability and resources to manufacture pharma. Apparently all that's missing is the formula. Bummer if you're in the pharma industry...
Business isn't stupid
Explain out sourcing then! jk =)
Hopefully, the Indian people/group/whatever who approved this robbery can find the funding to start their own cancer R&D for their people.
I'm looking at it as if it were my company and I spent time and money investing in a product only to have it counterfeit and sold in another market. What distorts this perception is the unknown real cost of developing, testing, and ultimately marketing a "life saving" product. I have no idea what the cost is and how much they've been able to get back (or profit immensely from) from their investment. Aren't most of the inflated costs are borne by the insurance companies?
For example, I know with medical tools which doctors use, some have failed when initially offered in the market place for being too cheap! The same product was re-marketed with a higher price and succeeded. Perhaps that also plays a role in the inflated price we see for this medicine.
You might be focusing on the "the citizens" bit, meaning that you're essentially saying "We're all human, so a state putting its own citizens ahead those who live elsewhere doesn't act in an ethical fashion". I might actually agree with that to some extent but I got the feeling that this isn't the point you're trying to make. Besides, it's hard to say "It's a slippery slope" when essentially every state in the world already does that more than what's involved in this specific story.
As another poster said (I'm paraphrasing), at the end of the day a government which doesn't look out for it's citizens isn't legitimate. I agree with that, what I'm struggling with in this situation is which side is right.
Keep in mind that the governments of the US and of western European nations work very hard to benefit their citizens at the expense of other nations, which is basically how India found itself in this situation.
Very true! However, when you say the west, you should be more specific as India was under the brutal boot of the U.K., the one and the same America had wars with to get out from under.
Where would you suggest that slippery slope leads?
Granted this isn't a 1:1 example, but bear with me. I'm not able to afford a BMW (it's many month's salary and I have a pressing need for quality transportation), but everyone I know including myself would benefit immensely from having access to these vehicles for a fraction of the price which they're currently offered (they're superior machines and highly desirable). Let's begin making them locally and paying a 6% royalty to BMW. (I'm aware that there are plants here which are responsible for all or part of these vehicles)
We pushed other countries to adopt certain industrial regulations that our corporations wanted, like copyrights and patents, rather than using our influence to affect changes that would benefit the working class (e.g. better education, better food and water, better living conditions, etc.).
'We' as in The West or as in America? I'm not arguing from the west's perspective. Bayer is originally a German company which was absorbed into IG Farben a German chemical company conglomerate following WWI reparations where America and Canada and several other countries acquired trademarks and patents. Industrial Regulations were these for the benefit of citizens? Straight from your mouth you say a government should be looking out for its citizens at the end of the day weren't these things benefiting citizens? If I follow your logic, both governments are doing things for/in their interests. The west has helped move, feed, and educate the world, see below. If a local government cannot meet the needs of it's people, how does the responsibility fall upon outsiders to right things?
The west became wealthy through the exploitation of other countries...If we are willing to let another nation languish in poverty so that we can continue to exploit its labor force, we really cannot complain when other countries ignore corporate profits so that their citizens can get affordable medicines.
The West is not unique in this behavior, how is Tibet or Somalia doing, or KONY 2012? The West has also helped feed many of these people, see Normal Borlaug, German engineering has improved transportation with the highly popular gasoline and diesel combustion engines. Western Learning has enabled modern Architecture to surpass simple stone and brick structures, Hydro-Electric power, the development of medicines and cancer treatments, Women's rights, Homosexual rights instead of public stonings instead of a caste system etc. The industrial revolution required peoples needs to be met and access to education, coal, steel/iron which England had in abundance. Let's keep this more specific than East vs West since America isn't the main reason why India is where it is today. I'm not complaining, I'm asking for solutions to how to combat IP issues.
At the end of the day, a government that is not doing what benefits its citizens is a government that fails the legitimacy test.
Indeed. Which brings me back to how do you combat what's occurring?
Thanks for the quick reply. You make it sound very noble especially the foreign corporation bit. Your argument is: ignore everything everywhere when it benefits the citizens? Please, I'm not a defender of corporations, but surely you must see that this is a slippery slope?
Regarding the patenting of things in India wouldn't an easier route be to have someone look at the patent in the US (or elsewhere)? I understand they're intentionally vague at times, I'm ignorant of patent details in general and doubly so with pharma patents. Failing that what about corporate espionage? One way or another if they're motivated they'll get what they want, much like software pirates, right?
Realistically what are Bayer's options, how do you combat something like this? Normally things are limited by expertise or manufacturing capabilities, however, India seems to have both of these covered. I'm asking because I'm ignorant and genuinely curious. I don't fault the Indians for wanting to help their people (that's a good thing). This seems to underline the downside of Intellectual Property. I guess the another option would be to keep the formula as a trade secret, but since they didn't this (and most pharma doesn't go this route) there is probably a good reason. I guess one saving grace of the patent system is that if the domestic Indian company tries to sell outside of India there may be problems? Not to single out China, but tons of knock offs come from there too and there is little to be done about it except to all but the largest players.
And let's not forget the habit of discontinuing Delphi products
List of Discontinued Microsoft Software is it like golf, who ever has the lowest wins? For development, J++, VB6 (and prior code), VisualFox Pro, Frontpage...
having years pass by without a useful update
You mean like IE6? Office?
and lack of a long-run clear vision
What's Microsoft's, relearn how to do it every 10 years with their shiny new tools? How's Silverlight working out?
....and what they will break next.
You mean like what happened between the jump from VB6 to.Net for example?
Very profound. I think my comment was worded poorly. I didn't blindly do this after someone's urging. I read up about the practice, then about the implementations, and finally after investing, I read the directions. Too much of anything is never good. For your information, it's not a daily routine and personal experience backs up what science (and thousands of years) has proven. I'm using (cooled) boiled bottled water + salts a few days while I was sick and had a good response from it.
Slashdot Mirror
But the main reason for D3 being ready for so long and being so long in the making was figuring out a drm scheme. That's whats taking time with the next StarCraft game as well.
Are you aware that D3 uses the same engine that StarCraft does?
Anyone remember Rage? Who played that on the first day? first week?
People using hardware without shit OpenGL drivers? *Cough* ATI/AMD
Um...because the government is the cause of that "any loss of data" and, again, due to at best a questionable basis? .. But, then it's a bit much to claim a third party who erased them or prevented access isn't at all to blame or liable just because the host themselves claims a lack of liability.
It's not the fault of the Police (Government in this case) that MegaUpload (and their users) thought it wise to break the law and eventually suffered the consequences ultimately where their users paid the price. Fact: Their own terms of service say to make a copy. If they had this copy they wouldn't be up shit creek. Why is this such a challenge to grasp? Responsibility for choosing a poor backup strategy rests on the user's shoulders, as the choice was theirs alone to make. No amount of blathering will change the fact that keeping things in an unsafe location is not smart. You've already agreed that MegaUpload's business model isn't sound. Shit happens, the best way to mitigate loss it is plan for it. These people didn't do their homework or simply don't care, actions speak louder than words here. I'm repeating myself, anyway we've got different opinions and I thank you for sharing yours.
My point is, if you're concerned with the absolute of "access to my files" against an "Eye of Sauren", to raise the stakes of "access to my life" would seem to blame all the dead civilians in a war zone because they don't care enough.
I'm not talking about war zones, or one's life, this thread is about backing up files (and the piss poor judgement of many involved). Equating any of this crap to dead people trivializes death and strife, you're better than that so stop doing it. Full Stop.
In the end, the main thrust of my point wasn't to claim uploaders were blameless. It was to note that a reasonable person could have lost a file that they had backed up because their backup hosting site went down; ie, their second basket was lost. And since the Eye of Sauron was responsible, it's a bit hard to act like it was the uploaders fault. So, yes, they should have done more if they wanted to keep accessing those files. And if that's all you really care about, well, feel free to have a hole reserved in your yard and another yard to keep your safety box with backups of all your files.
In MegaUpload's terms of service (which I cannot directly link since the site is offline, and the robots.txt prevents Archive.org to pull of a cached version of it, and since it's been offline long enough to not be listed in the public Google Cache) I'll link you to an excerpt of someone referencing their terms of service.
"...A Justice Department spokesman told DigitalTrends that, in this case, users didn’t have a right to expect their files back, because Megaupload had warned them on its terms-of-service and website FAQ to make copies of their files and that the users assumed responsibility for any loss of data..." Source: GCN (http://s.tt/1aAHU) Emphasis mine.
The TOS says specifically that the user needs to make copies. Nobody forced them to use the service, they willingly agreed to these terms to create their accounts. If you don't like the terms then don't do business with the company. You seem like an intelligent and rational person, surely you can see the mistake of agreeing to things that you've not read first, why is it any different here?
I wouldn't trust any third party, be it through the internet or through a local bank. I mean, if the Eye of Sauron is really that interested, at that point they'd have to go after me directly anyways, so that's about the best security I could have.
Even on your person there is no where things are safe in a country really. All businesses must follow laws in their respective countries. Seizures can and do happen, the US is not special in this regard.
Why? Would you serious upload hundreds or thousands of office documents to Megaupload?
I wouldn't, but users of the site collectively did. I'd be very curious to see what the make up of the stored data was. Regardless, it's easy to do using something called an archive (tar, zip, rar, 7z etc.). People uploaded gigs of binary data in bite sized files to the site.
I mean, how often has the hammer been dropped on the RIAA or MPAA as an organization with members seemingly dedicated to questionable accounting practices and hence questionable tax returns?
I'll raise you Hollywood accounting practices and tax haven countries. Parasites the lot of them.
*I don't believe the US government is the Eye of Sauron. But, certainly, the US government has shown a rather callous disregard for [non-US or its armed/government/contracted affiliates] life in war. Or do you believe that all those civilians in Afghanistan had it coming because they chose not to leave and would not or could not sufficient disassociate themselves from the Taliban? Because it's not like the US bothers to check your party affiliation card before they start dropping bombs. And as much as they may try to prevent needless death, bombs aren't precision weapons. So, yea, if you care about your life, you'd just leave the country and the only people left would be "the bad guys". But that's woefully unrealistic. Thankfully, the stakes with Megaupload are trivial in comparison. So, odds are good, granny might have lost access to but one of those adorable bundle of pictures of her grandson's doggy.
And you said I went off the deep end. We're talking about people who chose a poor place to back up files not villagers, not Afghans in a war zone, not politics. Turning this into an emotional argument will not advance the discussion.
If you want to talk to your friends or brag about drugs, skipping school/work, lying about a disability etc. why not do it the old fashioned way? Writing it down leaves a paper trail; which is why when privacy is concerned things are done face to face.
The overall trend of the judiciary seems to be moving toward greater permissiveness for e-discovery with regard to social media, as well as a strong likelihood that privacy concerns will be outweighed by the weight and relevance of the information.
Interesting read here too, seems the courts don't always agree.
"...A Justice Department spokesman told DigitalTrends that, in this case, users didn’t have a right to expect their files back, because Megaupload had warned them on its terms-of-service and website FAQ to make copies of their files and that the users assumed responsibility for any loss of data..." Source: GCN (http://s.tt/1aAHU) Emphasis mine.
You can be blamed for not locking your home, but the thief still goes to jail.
The service they're using tells them to do something and they don't do it I fail to see why this is anyone's problem but their own. Not following directions is your own fault.
To argue that it's a fault of not having enough baskets when two should have been sufficient and would have been
You say it's not their fault, then what happened to their copy? If you lose your copy (and it's obviously important since you're backing it up) you replace it ASAP to keep up the duplication. Why didn't this happen?
I want you to answer this honestly, in your opinion:
Is it or is it not a good idea to back up files at a place where illegally distributed software/music/movies are hosted?
Is doing business with a company that willingly and knowingly breaks laws in host country where they do business a sound idea?
Do you consider it wise risking your data disappearing when the Eye of Sauron/authorities gaze may focus on it at any point in time and deny you access?
If you answer yes to any of these the backup strategy is flawed and you might be in for a surprise. Remember these 500 servers were located in a country where what they were doing is illegal (this is not open for dispute, it's not legal distribute files which you do not have the rights to, or to pay people who participate in this behavior). It's simple honestly, if there are important files which need to be kept you make backups and keep these backups in a safe place. The affected users failed at the safe place part.
I do *not* believe the files lost were in the millions but likely at most in the thousands
I have millions of files on my HD, with ~500 servers let's use a Wild Ass Guess at 500gb per machine on the low end it's easy to see it being in the millions if thinking about office documents and the like.
I mean, I'd be at least a little less sickened if you were to say something like BLAHBLAHBLAH... It sickens me how you want to whitewash and distort the situation instead of just acknowledging what happened.
You seem to want to make this about who is right and wrong, which is easy: MegaUpload's business model is flawed. I'm approaching this from the "I want access to my files" stand point. If I wanted to gamble I'd go to Las Vegas. As we all know part of the learning process involves making mistakes. Hopefully these "villagers" as you put it have learned a valuable lesson about who they do business with, and how to make effective backups, and the company has learned to follow laws where they do business. Seems to me if MegaUpload gave a shit this whole situation could've been avoided and the villagers would be happy.
"Private" information posted online, especially to Facebook, is not private. It's like writing something in a public (the internet) and saying I can keep a secret but the people I tell cannot. From the same generation who posts their exploits to Youtube/Twitter/Facebook.
This made me laugh so hard. Thanks!
My point was that you don't put all your eggs in one basket. I've had HDs go bad, I've had servers at a hosting facility with no backup fail (which was expendable data, hence why it wasn't backed up at the co-location, and I have several local copies on the network) I have more than one back up for stuff that matters. For extremely sensitive digital stuff gets burned and stored in a safe deposit box and in my safe. One of the hardest to replace things families lose in house fires are photos. This is the same reason I mirror code hosted through source control because shit happens.
You blather on about people losing their files (millions of them!) who made the mistake of putting their eggs in one basket. What happened to personal responsibility? They made a bad choice. Do you see the flaw of their reasoning yet? This is an issue which has been solved (to have multiple copies) and FFS why would you use MegaUpload for sensitive things, are you that much of a dolt? Why not use RapidShare for your taxes?! LOL
They seized that website and caused millions of people to lose their files
I agree with your sentiments and the overall point you're trying to make. It bothers me when people put all of their eggs in one basket and something unforeseen happens. If I understand your claim correctly when users upload a file to a website, the original file disappears? This is akin to people who don't test backups, while it sucks, it's your own damned fault.
Whatever happened to "sticks and stones will break my bones, but words will never hurt me."
Words like yelling Fire in a crowded place or threatening the POTUS (1917)? Or Hate Speech laws... there are lots of words which are actionable.
Easy: "I know websites and I have preconceived notions about how things should work and am not willing to budge on that!"
Guess you guys aren't going to have much success with televised sporting events with a crowd.
India will get away with this exactly once. After that, I assure you that the Indian people are the one's who will take the worst of it. They won't even know that there are better cancer meds being sold outside their country.
I appreciate the insight, next time my guess is it won't involve a patent but corporate espionage or reverse engineering. India has the ability and resources to manufacture pharma. Apparently all that's missing is the formula. Bummer if you're in the pharma industry...
Business isn't stupid
Explain out sourcing then! jk =)
Hopefully, the Indian people/group/whatever who approved this robbery can find the funding to start their own cancer R&D for their people.
Hopefully. Cancer sucks.
For example, I know with medical tools which doctors use, some have failed when initially offered in the market place for being too cheap! The same product was re-marketed with a higher price and succeeded. Perhaps that also plays a role in the inflated price we see for this medicine.
You might be focusing on the "the citizens" bit, meaning that you're essentially saying "We're all human, so a state putting its own citizens ahead those who live elsewhere doesn't act in an ethical fashion". I might actually agree with that to some extent but I got the feeling that this isn't the point you're trying to make. Besides, it's hard to say "It's a slippery slope" when essentially every state in the world already does that more than what's involved in this specific story.
As another poster said (I'm paraphrasing), at the end of the day a government which doesn't look out for it's citizens isn't legitimate. I agree with that, what I'm struggling with in this situation is which side is right.
Seems like a horrible position to be in as a company but I'm sure they've figured this into their business model. Thanks for the insight.
Keep in mind that the governments of the US and of western European nations work very hard to benefit their citizens at the expense of other nations, which is basically how India found itself in this situation.
Very true! However, when you say the west, you should be more specific as India was under the brutal boot of the U.K., the one and the same America had wars with to get out from under.
Where would you suggest that slippery slope leads?
Granted this isn't a 1:1 example, but bear with me. I'm not able to afford a BMW (it's many month's salary and I have a pressing need for quality transportation), but everyone I know including myself would benefit immensely from having access to these vehicles for a fraction of the price which they're currently offered (they're superior machines and highly desirable). Let's begin making them locally and paying a 6% royalty to BMW. (I'm aware that there are plants here which are responsible for all or part of these vehicles)
We pushed other countries to adopt certain industrial regulations that our corporations wanted, like copyrights and patents, rather than using our influence to affect changes that would benefit the working class (e.g. better education, better food and water, better living conditions, etc.).
'We' as in The West or as in America? I'm not arguing from the west's perspective. Bayer is originally a German company which was absorbed into IG Farben a German chemical company conglomerate following WWI reparations where America and Canada and several other countries acquired trademarks and patents. Industrial Regulations were these for the benefit of citizens? Straight from your mouth you say a government should be looking out for its citizens at the end of the day weren't these things benefiting citizens? If I follow your logic, both governments are doing things for/in their interests. The west has helped move, feed, and educate the world, see below. If a local government cannot meet the needs of it's people, how does the responsibility fall upon outsiders to right things?
The west became wealthy through the exploitation of other countries...If we are willing to let another nation languish in poverty so that we can continue to exploit its labor force, we really cannot complain when other countries ignore corporate profits so that their citizens can get affordable medicines.
The West is not unique in this behavior, how is Tibet or Somalia doing, or KONY 2012? The West has also helped feed many of these people, see Normal Borlaug, German engineering has improved transportation with the highly popular gasoline and diesel combustion engines. Western Learning has enabled modern Architecture to surpass simple stone and brick structures, Hydro-Electric power, the development of medicines and cancer treatments, Women's rights, Homosexual rights instead of public stonings instead of a caste system etc. The industrial revolution required peoples needs to be met and access to education, coal, steel/iron which England had in abundance. Let's keep this more specific than East vs West since America isn't the main reason why India is where it is today. I'm not complaining, I'm asking for solutions to how to combat IP issues.
At the end of the day, a government that is not doing what benefits its citizens is a government that fails the legitimacy test.
Indeed. Which brings me back to how do you combat what's occurring?
Ah very informative. Thanks!
Thanks for the quick reply. You make it sound very noble especially the foreign corporation bit. Your argument is: ignore everything everywhere when it benefits the citizens? Please, I'm not a defender of corporations, but surely you must see that this is a slippery slope?
Regarding the patenting of things in India wouldn't an easier route be to have someone look at the patent in the US (or elsewhere)? I understand they're intentionally vague at times, I'm ignorant of patent details in general and doubly so with pharma patents. Failing that what about corporate espionage? One way or another if they're motivated they'll get what they want, much like software pirates, right?
Realistically what are Bayer's options, how do you combat something like this? Normally things are limited by expertise or manufacturing capabilities, however, India seems to have both of these covered. I'm asking because I'm ignorant and genuinely curious. I don't fault the Indians for wanting to help their people (that's a good thing). This seems to underline the downside of Intellectual Property. I guess the another option would be to keep the formula as a trade secret, but since they didn't this (and most pharma doesn't go this route) there is probably a good reason. I guess one saving grace of the patent system is that if the domestic Indian company tries to sell outside of India there may be problems? Not to single out China, but tons of knock offs come from there too and there is little to be done about it except to all but the largest players.
Apparently they were already "excepting" Jesus. Allegedly what he wanted them to do was accept Jesus.
And let's not forget the habit of discontinuing Delphi products
List of Discontinued Microsoft Software is it like golf, who ever has the lowest wins? For development, J++, VB6 (and prior code), VisualFox Pro, Frontpage...
having years pass by without a useful update
You mean like IE6? Office?
and lack of a long-run clear vision
What's Microsoft's, relearn how to do it every 10 years with their shiny new tools? How's Silverlight working out?
....and what they will break next.
You mean like what happened between the jump from VB6 to .Net for example?
Very profound. I think my comment was worded poorly. I didn't blindly do this after someone's urging. I read up about the practice, then about the implementations, and finally after investing, I read the directions. Too much of anything is never good. For your information, it's not a daily routine and personal experience backs up what science (and thousands of years) has proven. I'm using (cooled) boiled bottled water + salts a few days while I was sick and had a good response from it.