maybe you didn't know this, but the government had a fire department, fine roads for the time (which could certainly be kept up, even better by private organizations, who do other methods of transportation), and fought off the best military in the world, without any problem, all this, with no income tax for the first century of its existence. the income tax is reserved for things like echelon, the wod, and various other programs that don't work and/or infringe our rights and privacy
dan any model describe people's views? maybe the label authoritarian could be a *bit* harsh, but this person wants to take people's money, and wants probably to make his beliefs to law to try to fix this country. daveo would say that is authoritarian. you need'nt kill 6 million jews to be an authoritarian, you know
wow, these fit daveo exactly!! amazing how true it is, all of them. anyway, daveo was like this ever since he heard his parents talking about politics when he was a small child, and he disagreed with them at heart (before he ever heard of the lp or got his computer when he was 14), so maybe it is just a result of the personality, more closely that curiousity and desire to work with things, to know how they work, to manipulate these amazing pieces of machinery to do what we tell the, and the great challenge, and above all, the logic that goes into thinking about how we must do it, it's just so much fun !:0)
daveo doesn't know if the origianl author said that, but he can offer his thoughts. he believes the greatest good for people should be done, out of kindness, and cooperation when possible, but this cannot be acheived through governemnt, and no one has the right to tell daveo _anything_ of what to do or how he should spend his money because someone else will benefit.
hmm an interesting attitude. daveo just means he wishes people would share, meaning they would possibly divide equally land at first, and trade things that they would have without having arguments or theft of things or who owns what, and this is what communism and some forms of anarchism are about. unfortunately, this is so extremely far from the way humans think and act, and as long as there is ever any desire for the self it can never happen (daveo is sorry if he is wrong about communism, he is not very familiar with it, and has started reading some more lately)
**daveo is sorry he took so long, netscape froze and killed x, but he saw it coming (as usual:-) and backed up 3/4 of his post, so all was not lost**
Also, how many times has a person from the government put a gun to your head to do something?
personally to daveo, none, but to many many many million s of innocent people who do not bother anyone and stay with their friends in the ir homes, millions of times. it is called the war on drugs. and besides that y ou are forced by other means, such as being put inside a big cage and kept there for years.
If you don't do what your boss tells you, well, you'll likely get your ass fired. And be in economic trouble unless you are lucky enough to be upper middl e class or wealthier.
now this is an argument held a lot. the libertari an party cannot guarantee a fun and gleeful life, nor stress-free. what do you propose for this? laws against mean bosses? how would this be enforced? be n ice to your neighbor laws? as daveo is sure you know the government cannot enfo rce drug laws, or gun laws effectively, and if you wanted to see a real totalita rian state, do this. now people can look for jobs duriing their time-off withou t losing a job, but yes, this is the way of life. libertarians do not advocate big mean companies, nor do they pretend they can stop them! you show what party can stop this and you will see a party that cannot work. libertarians advoca te a government that does not force you to do things that you have the right to do, not a government that says fasley it can solve all your problems. see http://www.lp.org/program/unemp.html for some solutions how its platforms will help solve some unemployment
Can you even elect your boss? What about the bosses boss? the boss of that person? The CEO? Does anyone have any control over their superiors in a corpora tion?
no, but there is one flaw you missed, that is that these people do not have absolute control over you, as does the government. by working with the m you agree to abide by their terms. it is a mutual deal. a corporation makes money by having the people who run it decide the most efficient means to run it. they then set out to make deals with people, employees, who can help them ache ive their goal. people who want can work with them, and not do so if they disa gree. if no one chooses to work with them because they have bad conditions, the y will have no workers, and choose to make conditions better. this is what unio ns are for, where people organize and *without force* try to change things. yet the government often interferes and order unions back to work all the time! is a hypocricy seen here by any one else??
You can say the boss must be doing a go od job...and if he/she isn't they'll be fired. Well, yeah...Hitler did a nice job too. Many of "his" own people loved him. Does that mean that sort of power is justifiable? The ability to ex terminate someone, either economically or directly?
no daveo doesnt say he must do a good job. hitler was in government, which gave iitself the right t o put force on people, kill, steal, and torture them if he did not do what he sa id. that is government, force. companies are choice. no matter what governmen t you have you will not always be happy in life. libertarianism is choice. eve n if unhappy, you can choose to work because it is worth it to you. if not, you can quit. simple, but that is not possible with government, or daveo would hav e quit long ago. daveo has had *boring* low paying jobs in the past, but stuck with them because he needed the money. no one should force others to make daveo happy. other wise you are making people pay daveo more than they want for what he offers, and doing other things to eliminate what makes it a private deal, an d the government will take this power and expand it as it has done in the past.
you are right about corporatism, where you cannot do whatever you want, and yo u cannot expect to do whatever you want. what gives you the right to tell them how to run their business, or face government force. what if government told yo u, that you must do xxx because the corporation is unpleased with your work? no t fair to tell either side what to do. if they do not like your side, they may choose not to deal with you, as may you. you are expecting to force life to be happy, which is not what libertarianism is about, and no government can do. lib ertarianms simply want you to be free to choose the best spot for you to work, w hat you do with your body, and what to do with your life and property and not to be forced to do anything you don't want, and don't want you to be able to force your will on others. you must compromise when going into work, because both si des need something out of it, and you cannot expect an ideal situation.
daveo knows there are people who work very hard outside of the computer world, and he has done that himself, maybe not at poverty levels howeverl. but what can gover nment possibly do about this? 8 hour work day laws? fine, they will pay you less for the day, worsening things. minimum wage? great, they will be forced to pay for what they don't receive, and as a result to make up for the costs, they will not be able to hire as many people, so more will be out on the street, so people who used to have a little will have nothing, and be forced to steal from those who have little.
government cannot fix all these problems, and they are problems. they will only get worse. if you give government the pwoer to do this, it will be normalized, and politicians will announce a solution to another of socities "problems". things will continue to get worse because of taxes, force, and unseen consequences. the lp does a great job at making stats and these consqeuences clear and visible. it is simple, force can not solve things, and it is obvious. when you give government any power over people, they will abuse it, tell the people they are decreasing government, and make things worse. they will continue to say they will solve problems, mostly because they will have the power to tell people what to do. read what the lp says, and the tours/programs on their site, it makes sense. a party which does not promise to solve your problems, because it cannot be done. parties which say it can, only make it worse, which is clear with the proper reasearch, and only use the power you give them to wreak havoc and be corrupt, and steal on massive amounts. give them 3% of your income to fight a war that is to save the nation, and the power to regulate factory conditions, and before you will know it, they will be taking over 33% of your money to imprison more people than any other country in the world, 60% of which because they might have chosen something to put in their own bodies which was not govt-approved. the process is slow, and people see one little change on top of another, and think nothing of it, becuase it only goes slightly farther from solving the problem from before that the previous generation that gave them the power to solve. but if you take a look at the small things that the people asked them to do in the 1800s, when they lost sight of the founding fathers' visions, and you look what government does today, you can see where giving them any power over citizen's lives leads! just think about the condititions that made america declare independence in 1776, and compare those to the same categories now. you will be amazed! well daveo will go to sleep soon, he will continue talking iun the morning if possible.
well daveo would just lik eto say, (not disagreeiong with you) that he is anti-guns and will never own one, and does not like large corportations like nsi, but realizes that they should have a right to do as they wish, and if daveo does not like them, he will not deal with them, instead of trying to confrom them to what and only what he sees fit, as do many other political parties
daveo argues they area group of people (sorry he has never heard the left-libertarian name, he apologizes), and yes so are the governments, armies, and any institution made of of *people*! but the groups you mentioned use force to make people do what they want. the libertarians (us libertarian party) do not advocate the force of any group of people, no matter what there interest, that would include government of any kind. corporations are certainly not advocated to have power by the libertarians, who do not accept donations from any special-interest-groups.
if you do not like a corporation, or think that it is made up of terrible, greedy people(which is the case), you do not deal with them, you are not forced to. if you are, the government will stop the theft they carry out against you. but while maybe the government could possibly stop corporations, this will not stop the greed people have, and it will be manifested by itself in ways that are even worse.
the libertarian government advocates power of the people, that is power of thje people to choose what they want to do, and not to have anyone, not government, not mafia, not communists, not republiocans, not democrats, not anarchists, not corporations, not anyone, to do anything to take from you or hurt you if you don't do as they please. you , and only you, will decide what you do with your life and how you run it
please this is not the truth, and youre sarcasm is not needed. as is said many times, government is *force*. it forces you to pay them almost 1/2 your money, or you go to jail, forces you what you put in your body, or you go to jail, it controls many aspects of your life, that you must pay for if you disobey them, and go to jail if you do not pay. a corporation: if you do not do what they say... nothing, you do not deal with them, so you do it yourself, find someone else, or do without there product. libertarians say live and let live, if you don't like a person's terms (daveo doesn't, such as nsi, so he will deal with register.com), then you cannot get what they offer.
government does not offer that choice. the only thing government should force is that you do not put force on others do things they dont want with means as violence and robbery
thank you for the clarification, daveo sees this as very interesting. but again the same question is to come up: why if daveo has his computer, should you not be able to use it, but you should be able to use a piece of land daveo has 2000 miles away, just because the computer is here? the simple answer isthat the idea of property alltogether is rediculous! there is no reason that any human has the exclusive use over one thing fromed by nature, while another does not. the problem them arises that since humans cannot work things out so easily, we must use property. so daveo sees no consistency in the left-anarchist, or socialist position.
it is too bad that we cannot work things out and share together so property would not be needed, but the slightest amount of want or greed in the hearts of men would be to preclude that.
maybe ethics is hidden somewhat, but that is not the only reason for a corporation. a corporation exists when one or more indivuduals has a business idea that cannot possibly be carried out by a handful of people. but accountabilitey is certainly in existence! the individuals must be responsible for their actions. if people choose to engage in a joint venture, that's fine, to reduce risk, it helps out busniess, and people can chose to or not to deal with them. but that does not waive them of any rights or responsiblities. they still cannot steal, and they cannot force others to do anything they do not want to do. they may set the terms on which they do deals with others, but this may be where liberals disagree. if one group of people does not see fit the deal which the others have offered, they may negotiate, or either may refuse the deal, but government can not tell the people who are effected by these deals what to do!
hmm well daveo disagrees, libertarians thikn that an individual is an individual, but also that the government does have no business in any private affairs as specified by the constitution. its function is to protect against robbery, murder, and crimes against people that infringe on their property rights or body.
now a coportation is composed of individuals, and by telling a corporation what to do, you thereby tell the real _people_ that are running it how they can and can not operate with other people. do you disagree?
daveo does not see how a libertarian could force to tell people what thjey "own" and do not own, private ownership and leaving all affairs up to the people , and keeping the government out of all of these type of affairs is the difinition of a liberarian. what you are speaking of sounds just as a socialist government to me and libertarian in no way, since that would keep most control over the people, the opposite of that group's position. is this not correct?
well, as daveo cannot speak for others, only for himself, he will try to explain his believes. he is a scientific person and as some one says, he does what hje sees fit, meaning he will believe what things lead him to believe, and he has been led to believe from what he has learned and read on both sides that he does not exist
the libertaraians are not right, nor are they left. right wants encomnic freedom and infringes many personal rights, left want (supposedly) nmore personal freedom but less economic. the libertarians will favor *both*. they do not tend to either of the sides
daveo agrees, he has purchaed an "acer" future keyboard with an attachable num-pad that can be taken off, which daveo does, and has saved much space and time on his keyboard trey.
daveo thinks that is hould be the responsibility of the site-owner to take care of this. it is suggested that they use java or cgi scripts to download files to users and check the referrer. would that not be much more easy then a court trial? maybe the lawyers payed the tech guys so not too tell universal it could be done;0)
daveo re-registered his domain today in hopes that it could be done automatically, for he knows that a manual update is an imposibility, and did not bother calling them, since it is long distance and he knows that he could in fact be on hold in an excess of 3 years;0)
daveo had a conversation with the gaim author, who was very kind. he informed daveo that local storeage is on the "todo" list, which fixes a major bug, so daveo will stick with gaim knowing he is hard at work, which is of great appreciation!
daveo meanmt there is no local storeage on *gaim*. he is thinking about going back to his tik, because gaim cannot recognize his permit list and use it, it freezes, and, it has some bugs in it suhc as trying to send an "instant message" to a buddy that is not on the buddy list, whilst there are multiple windows of conversation open.
yes, daveo has noticed this a while ago. he had v.73, waited for a few days, and asked some one in the tic-tock chat, who gave him the address to download the newest version, but he today started using gaim. it looks nice, but daveo would appreciate local storage of the config, and also sometimes while logging on it will displayu "retreiving config" and get stuck there so log on cannot happen.
also when not runniong as root, with logging set to "on", when an im is sent, gaim will crash. if it will not log on, tik must be the only alternative, but gaim is better. if only they were to add local config storage it would all be ok. hay it is better then the old java client (daveo does pogram java so he is just saying the client wasn't good)
Slashdot Mirror
if daveo is to recall his memory corectley, the move that storie appeared on was for the 'matrix'
maybe you didn't know this, but the government had a fire department, fine roads for the time (which could certainly be kept up, even better by private organizations, who do other methods of transportation), and fought off the best military in the world, without any problem, all this, with no income tax for the first century of its existence. the income tax is reserved for things like echelon, the wod, and various other programs that don't work and/or infringe our rights and privacy
dan any model describe people's views? maybe the label authoritarian could be a *bit* harsh, but this person wants to take people's money, and wants probably to make his beliefs to law to try to fix this country. daveo would say that is authoritarian. you need'nt kill 6 million jews to be an authoritarian, you know
wow, these fit daveo exactly!! amazing how true it is, all of them. anyway, daveo was like this ever since he heard his parents talking about politics when he was a small child, and he disagreed with them at heart (before he ever heard of the lp or got his computer when he was 14), so maybe it is just a result of the personality, more closely that curiousity and desire to work with things, to know how they work, to manipulate these amazing pieces of machinery to do what we tell the, and the great challenge, and above all, the logic that goes into thinking about how we must do it, it's just so much fun ! :0)
daveo doesn't know if the origianl author said that, but he can offer his thoughts. he believes the greatest good for people should be done, out of kindness, and cooperation when possible, but this cannot be acheived through governemnt, and no one has the right to tell daveo _anything_ of what to do or how he should spend his money because someone else will benefit.
hmm an interesting attitude. daveo just means he wishes people would share, meaning they would possibly divide equally land at first, and trade things that they would have without having arguments or theft of things or who owns what, and this is what communism and some forms of anarchism are about. unfortunately, this is so extremely far from the way humans think and act, and as long as there is ever any desire for the self it can never happen (daveo is sorry if he is wrong about communism, he is not very familiar with it, and has started reading some more lately)
Also, how many times has a person from the government put a gun to your head to do something?
personally to daveo, none, but to many many many million s of innocent people who do not bother anyone and stay with their friends in the ir homes, millions of times. it is called the war on drugs. and besides that y ou are forced by other means, such as being put inside a big cage and kept there for years.
If you don't do what your boss tells you, well, you'll likely get your ass fired. And be in economic trouble unless you are lucky enough to be upper middl e class or wealthier.
now this is an argument held a lot. the libertari an party cannot guarantee a fun and gleeful life, nor stress-free. what do you propose for this? laws against mean bosses? how would this be enforced? be n ice to your neighbor laws? as daveo is sure you know the government cannot enfo rce drug laws, or gun laws effectively, and if you wanted to see a real totalita rian state, do this. now people can look for jobs duriing their time-off withou t losing a job, but yes, this is the way of life. libertarians do not advocate big mean companies, nor do they pretend they can stop them! you show what party can stop this and you will see a party that cannot work. libertarians advoca te a government that does not force you to do things that you have the right to do, not a government that says fasley it can solve all your problems. see http: //www.lp.org/program/unemp.html for some solutions how its platforms will help solve some unemployment
Can you even elect your boss? What about the bosses boss? the boss of that person? The CEO? Does anyone have any control over their superiors in a corpora tion?
no, but there is one flaw you missed, that is that these people do not have absolute control over you, as does the government. by working with the m you agree to abide by their terms. it is a mutual deal. a corporation makes money by having the people who run it decide the most efficient means to run it. they then set out to make deals with people, employees, who can help them ache ive their goal. people who want can work with them, and not do so if they disa gree. if no one chooses to work with them because they have bad conditions, the y will have no workers, and choose to make conditions better. this is what unio ns are for, where people organize and *without force* try to change things. yet the government often interferes and order unions back to work all the time! is a hypocricy seen here by any one else??
You can say the boss must be doing a go od job...and if he/she isn't they'll be fired. Well, yeah...Hitler did a nice job too. Many of "his" own people loved him. Does that mean that sort of power is justifiable? The ability to ex terminate someone, either economically or directly?
no daveo doesnt say he must do a good job. hitler was in government, which gave iitself the right t o put force on people, kill, steal, and torture them if he did not do what he sa id. that is government, force. companies are choice. no matter what governmen t you have you will not always be happy in life. libertarianism is choice. eve n if unhappy, you can choose to work because it is worth it to you. if not, you can quit. simple, but that is not possible with government, or daveo would hav e quit long ago. daveo has had *boring* low paying jobs in the past, but stuck with them because he needed the money. no one should force others to make daveo happy. other wise you are making people pay daveo more than they want for what he offers, and doing other things to eliminate what makes it a private deal, an d the government will take this power and expand it as it has done in the past.
you are right about corporatism, where you cannot do whatever you want, and yo u cannot expect to do whatever you want. what gives you the right to tell them how to run their business, or face government force. what if government told yo u, that you must do xxx because the corporation is unpleased with your work? no t fair to tell either side what to do. if they do not like your side, they may choose not to deal with you, as may you. you are expecting to force life to be happy, which is not what libertarianism is about, and no government can do. lib ertarianms simply want you to be free to choose the best spot for you to work, w hat you do with your body, and what to do with your life and property and not to be forced to do anything you don't want, and don't want you to be able to force your will on others. you must compromise when going into work, because both si des need something out of it, and you cannot expect an ideal situation.
daveo knows there are people who work very hard outside of the computer world, and he has done that himself, maybe not at poverty levels howeverl. but what can gover nment possibly do about this? 8 hour work day laws? fine, they will pay you less for the day, worsening things. minimum wage? great, they will be forced to pay for what they don't receive, and as a result to make up for the costs, they will not be able to hire as many people, so more will be out on the street, so people who used to have a little will have nothing, and be forced to steal from those who have little.
government cannot fix all these problems, and they are problems. they will only get worse. if you give government the pwoer to do this, it will be normalized, and politicians will announce a solution to another of socities "problems". things will continue to get worse because of taxes, force, and unseen consequences. the lp does a great job at making stats and these consqeuences clear and visible. it is simple, force can not solve things, and it is obvious. when you give government any power over people, they will abuse it, tell the people they are decreasing government, and make things worse. they will continue to say they will solve problems, mostly because they will have the power to tell people what to do. read what the lp says, and the tours/programs on their site, it makes sense. a party which does not promise to solve your problems, because it cannot be done. parties which say it can, only make it worse, which is clear with the proper reasearch, and only use the power you give them to wreak havoc and be corrupt, and steal on massive amounts. give them 3% of your income to fight a war that is to save the nation, and the power to regulate factory conditions, and before you will know it, they will be taking over 33% of your money to imprison more people than any other country in the world, 60% of which because they might have chosen something to put in their own bodies which was not govt-approved. the process is slow, and people see one little change on top of another, and think nothing of it, becuase it only goes slightly farther from solving the problem from before that the previous generation that gave them the power to solve. but if you take a look at the small things that the people asked them to do in the 1800s, when they lost sight of the founding fathers' visions, and you look what government does today, you can see where giving them any power over citizen's lives leads! just think about the condititions that made america declare independence in 1776, and compare those to the same categories now. you will be amazed! well daveo will go to sleep soon, he will continue talking iun the morning if possible.
well daveo would just lik eto say, (not disagreeiong with you) that he is anti-guns and will never own one, and does not like large corportations like nsi, but realizes that they should have a right to do as they wish, and if daveo does not like them, he will not deal with them, instead of trying to confrom them to what and only what he sees fit, as do many other political parties
if you do not like a corporation, or think that it is made up of terrible, greedy people(which is the case), you do not deal with them, you are not forced to. if you are, the government will stop the theft they carry out against you. but while maybe the government could possibly stop corporations, this will not stop the greed people have, and it will be manifested by itself in ways that are even worse.
the libertarian government advocates power of the people, that is power of thje people to choose what they want to do, and not to have anyone, not government, not mafia, not communists, not republiocans, not democrats, not anarchists, not corporations, not anyone, to do anything to take from you or hurt you if you don't do as they please. you , and only you, will decide what you do with your life and how you run it
government does not offer that choice. the only thing government should force is that you do not put force on others do things they dont want with means as violence and robbery
it is too bad that we cannot work things out and share together so property would not be needed, but the slightest amount of want or greed in the hearts of men would be to preclude that.
maybe ethics is hidden somewhat, but that is not the only reason for a corporation. a corporation exists when one or more indivuduals has a business idea that cannot possibly be carried out by a handful of people. but accountabilitey is certainly in existence! the individuals must be responsible for their actions. if people choose to engage in a joint venture, that's fine, to reduce risk, it helps out busniess, and people can chose to or not to deal with them. but that does not waive them of any rights or responsiblities. they still cannot steal, and they cannot force others to do anything they do not want to do. they may set the terms on which they do deals with others, but this may be where liberals disagree. if one group of people does not see fit the deal which the others have offered, they may negotiate, or either may refuse the deal, but government can not tell the people who are effected by these deals what to do!
now a coportation is composed of individuals, and by telling a corporation what to do, you thereby tell the real _people_ that are running it how they can and can not operate with other people. do you disagree?
daveo does not see how a libertarian could force to tell people what thjey "own" and do not own, private ownership and leaving all affairs up to the people , and keeping the government out of all of these type of affairs is the difinition of a liberarian. what you are speaking of sounds just as a socialist government to me and libertarian in no way, since that would keep most control over the people, the opposite of that group's position. is this not correct?
well, as daveo cannot speak for others, only for himself, he will try to explain his believes. he is a scientific person and as some one says, he does what hje sees fit, meaning he will believe what things lead him to believe, and he has been led to believe from what he has learned and read on both sides that he does not exist
the libertaraians are not right, nor are they left. right wants encomnic freedom and infringes many personal rights, left want (supposedly) nmore personal freedom but less economic. the libertarians will favor *both*. they do not tend to either of the sides
daveo is not a liberal, he is a libertarian and believes people should be to do what it is taht tthaey want, but does not believe in a god.
is there a url for this happy hacking keyboard? how much would it cost, and des it have a detachible keyboard-num-pad?
daveo agrees, he has purchaed an "acer" future keyboard with an attachable num-pad that can be taken off, which daveo does, and has saved much space and time on his keyboard trey.
the robot butler would maybe call him "master bastes"? ;o)
daveo thinks that is hould be the responsibility of the site-owner to take care of this. it is suggested that they use java or cgi scripts to download files to users and check the referrer. would that not be much more easy then a court trial? maybe the lawyers payed the tech guys so not too tell universal it could be done ;0)
daveo re-registered his domain today in hopes that it could be done automatically, for he knows that a manual update is an imposibility, and did not bother calling them, since it is long distance and he knows that he could in fact be on hold in an excess of 3 years ;0)
daveo had a conversation with the gaim author, who was very kind. he informed daveo that local storeage is on the "todo" list, which fixes a major bug, so daveo will stick with gaim knowing he is hard at work, which is of great appreciation!
daveo meanmt there is no local storeage on *gaim*. he is thinking about going back to his tik, because gaim cannot recognize his permit list and use it, it freezes, and, it has some bugs in it suhc as trying to send an "instant message" to a buddy that is not on the buddy list, whilst there are multiple windows of conversation open.
yes, daveo has noticed this a while ago. he had v .73, waited for a few days, and asked some one in the tic-tock chat, who gave him the address to download the newest version, but he today started using gaim. it looks nice, but daveo would appreciate local storage of the config, and also sometimes while logging on it will displayu "retreiving config" and get stuck there so log on cannot happen.
:0)
also when not runniong as root, with logging set to "on", when an im is sent, gaim will crash. if it will not log on, tik must be the only alternative, but gaim is better. if only they were to add local config storage it would all be ok. hay it is better then the old java client (daveo does pogram java so he is just saying the client wasn't good)
now matter what, there's always licq!