I have little experience with 10.3, so it is possible that the mail program has been improved.
However, if you have not had any problems with this app, you are just lucky. I happen to do some technical support as part of my job at a very small ISP, and this client fails more per user than any other one I know of. And when it does, it is often just inexplicable. And googling the error typically reveals several other people with the same problem, and no one who has any fix. Deleting/recreating the account often solves the problem.....but this mail client has the dubious distinction of being the only mail client I have ever used or even heard of that irrevocably deletes all the mail along with the account settings. Yeah...found that out the hard way.
Again, perhaps newer versions are better...but it is of note that my problems with this client don't have anything to do with lack of features, or interface grumbles, or anything else. I don't like it because it is flat out the least reliable agent for the checking of email that I have ever had the misfortune to have to work with.
p.s. Note I am talking about the mail chunk of Mozilla, not Thunderbird. I have only used Thunderbird on a Mac once, and it was Thunderbird.2 with OS 10.0.2....but it was completely unstable. Now, that box wasn't very stable to begin with, and Thunderbird is several revisions down the line....but that's not my recommendation either. Real Mozilla is.
Of course MS would sell you SQL Server for that market. The point is, no one in that market would buy it, because your crazy pipedream notwithstanding, it isn't now, and will likely never be, in the same league as Oracle in any of the three qualifications I gave above (performance, reliability, and scalability).
My employer has completely migrated away from MS SQL Server to PostgreSQL on Linux, for performance, security, and reliability reasons. And this guy doesn't consider Postgres ready for him. So....my guess (and I'm not really going out on any limbs here) is that neither he, nor anyone else with his level of requirements, would or should even consider Windows or MS SQL for the job.
It constantly confounds me WHY none of the open office alternatives leave out this VITAL piece of software.
Uh...possibly because there are lots of perfectly good and free email clients?
Seriously...no matter what platform you are on, there is at least one built-in mail client. The mail app that came with OSX sucks, and should be replaced with Mozilla; and of course Outlook Express isn't great, but it's not any worse than Outlook. But the point is, they are already there, and if you want a good one, it's readily available for free too. So there isn't any need for every office suite to have email.
And where did you hear that Outlook's latest version fixed security problems? It still runs crap from the preview pane, right?
No, it's plenty easy to find Windows admins....it's just really tough (read: not possible) to get ahold of a Windows database stack with the performance, reliability, and scalability of Oracle on AIX.
But of course, the important thing here is that Windows wasn't even one of the stated possibilities; it couldn't even really be considered for this. The choices were Linux (on a big Altix box...probably 20+ procs) or AIX (on a 24-proc), either way with Oracle. They mention that the OSS databases aren't there, but it seems to go without saying that Windows doesn't fit in this market segment. What, are you going to use MS SQL Server? Give me a break.
Read it again. He doesn't say Lotus Notes needs WINE...he alledges that it's native, and then says the company should run *office* under WINE.
Now, another reply says that only the Notes server runs on Linux, and that the client does not. And frankly, I don't know which is right.
Also...about the "supported configuration" deal...if you get Crossover Office with the intention of running MS Office on Linux, the Crossover people support the application.
The typical user has several years of experience with Windows.
So, when Windows was released, the typical user had years of experience with DOS. Clearly, no one should ever have switched to Windows. By the way, when you take out this argument, you don't have anything left...studies show that people who haven't used either system find Linux just as easy to use as Windows. Especially if you are a non-English speaker.
It is clearly true that there is more pre-existing Windows knowledge than Linux knowledge. That's why this would be a "switch." But saying, "there's no reason to switch, because we would have to switch" just doesn't make any sense. Come up with a real reason, or just quiet down.
Most hardware will be autodetected and supported by Windows (typical users don't have cutting-edge technology)
Most hardware will be autodetected and supported by Linux (typical users don't have cutting-edge technology)
A huge amount of discussion (maybe the majority) is about the effects of issues on people not reading/.
Perhaps. However, the head of this discussion says simply "This is a good opportunity for Windows users to migrate to a free desktop." And the great^x grandparent just says "when isn't?"...both comments are very obviously directed at this crowd...the crowd reading the comments. If it said "now would be a good time to run around installing Linux on as many neophyte-owned computers as you can get your hands on while they're not looking" your comments would be warranted. But otherwise, we expect you to look at the audience that is reading the suggestion. And they are not typical users.
2)There is no shortage of documentation. And while I'm at it...where's this fabulous Windows documentation? Quit smoking crack, and quit talking about stuff you know nothing about.
3)Universality isn't a big deal, for a couple of reasons. First, since these are "typical users", they will just equate the distro they got from the hardware vendor or friendly geek to "Linux." So the universality issue doesn't affect them. And also, the differences between distros are not huge...certainly not anything like the difference between Windows 95 and Windows XP...
4)There are lots of real benefits for lots of real people. And don't be so quick to dismiss the costs; it's easy to say that Windows isn't that expensive, but once you add in Office and a couple other programs, the software costs more than the computer. It's funny that you mentioned the GIMP a while ago...that's one of the programs that brought several of my friends in. At least one of those was previously pirating Photoshop (and Windows...) because he couldn't afford it. He said he felt bad about it...so when I showed him something he could have legally, he went for it. Maybe the cost of software isn't an issue for you....but let me tell you, it is a serious issue for the majority of the world's population.
Installing Windows is extremely easy, and no major administration or configuration is necessary for a typical user.
Maybe so, on your fantasy island. Here in the actual world, Windows installations require knowledge of computing just like Linux installations. You might just get lucky, and have all your hardware auto-detected, but you'll have about the same chance of that either way you go. And if you do have to go get drivers for your XP box, it will get over the head of a "typical user" in a hurry. And let's just hope that you didn't try to install XP on top of an old XP installation that you had upgraded to SP1...because if you did, your dialup networking won't work until you go through a registry hack that takes you 10 levels deep into the tree to delete two keys labeled with meaningless numbers. Heck, I even saw a Dell laptop ship that way once. No lie.
Point is, if you expect to hand your granny a WinXP box and a computer and say, "good luck"...you're insane. Why would you expect anything different from Linux?
There was no implication that/. readers were the sole target of the grandparent.
Uh....except for the (rather obvious) fact that/. readers were the only people reading the grandparent?
Thanks a lot to both of you who replied to me; the above has lots of good information, and I notice that indeed, GIMP has added CMYK, which slipped past me, since I don't use it.
Right....sure thing. I pity the poor fools who modded this "insightful."
1)It is true that a "typical user" is not ready to install, configure, and administrate a Linux computer. However, they aren't ready to install, configure, and administrate a Windows computer either. Now...given a properly installed/configured Windows system as it arrives from Dell, most users will be fine. And given a properly installed/configured Linux system as it arrives from one of the Linux hardware vendors, or from your local geek (assuming he/she's good) most users will be similarly fine.
I know this because I have set up several "typical users" on Linux systems, and they are fine.
2)Also, Mr. Insight, did you pause to consider the audience for the statement that now might be a good time to try a free desktop? You know, the slashdot audience?! This was not a statement directed at "typical users."
I don't know where you got these fantastic notions...but I can tell you that it's obvious that you did not get them from using either Windows or Linux. So I'll do the point-by-point.
works out of the box (possibly given a visit to Windows Update)
Look, I've installed, configured, administered, and run every version of Windows since 3.1, and not a single one of them ever did anything useful "out of the box." XP is closer than the others have been, mostly because it has a more comprehensive set of builtin drivers....but it's not anywhere near complete. Not to mention the outrageously long/large Windows Update you so dismissively mention...I pity a dialup user who wants to do a fresh XP install. And then there's the antivirus software you'd better go get unless you're crazy. And since you say not to use Outlook/IE, I guess that means a download of some other browser/email client. And since you say Windows is secure (you really mean "securable") I guess that means you expect us to take the time to turn off and tweak a bunch of services.
What was that about "out of the box"?
autodetects all your hardware (some Linux distros do this yes, but not nearly as well)
So...I guess you've never installed Windows? And you're proving that you haven't ever installed Linux. Or at least that you haven't within the last 3 years.
I, on the other hand, have. I can't speak for all hardware, but I can speak for the 25 or so fresh installs I've done in the last 6-8 months, on very standard hardware. I can tell you that I had to go get drivers from someplace roughly 5 times more often during Windows installs. As a matter of fact, I only have 3 devices that required any manual configuration at all in Linux; two video cards and a wireless card. And I'm being kind to windows; I would say that 15 driver downloads is pretty optimistic really. That's only about 1 per install. Seriously, if you want to keep spewing this, take the Pepsi challenge. Grab five systems at random and throw a couple Linux distros on, see what hardware works "out of the box", and then try Windows XP. You'll be damned surprised.
does NOT get you rooted because the security is there if you know how to use it (and not use IE/Outlook)
Now, look...you can have it one way or the other...but not both. Either Windows works out of the box, but gets you rooted, or it doesn't get you rooted, but doesn't work out of the box. Sorry, but that's the breaks. The last time I installed XP on a machine that wasn't behind a firewall, it took less than 30 seconds to acquire a worm. A real pain in the ass, especially since the updates take so long. And also, it's funny that you specify here that you need to install additional software to replace Lookout and IE...
does play all the latest games and software which I need (the alternatives suck, try comparing Photoshop with GIMP)
First off, I'm not going to talk about games. If your computer is a toy, it's ok by me if you want to run Windows. Matter of fact, it's ok with me if you want to run Windows no matter what you do (well, except things like airplane guidance, or nuclear power plants). But the software stack is there for Linux. And quit dissing the GIMP; it's good enough for every single major movie production house. Think Sony Dreamworks would settle for a second-rate image editing program? No, not likely. Truth is, the GIMP lacks only a few features found in Photoshop, and mostly not very important ones. And it includes many features that Photoshop lacks. Methinks you have the same problem here that you have with Linux; you've used Photoshop a long time, and now the GIMP is worse because it's different.
does have free and competent technical support available which does not have "STFU NOOB" in its vocabulary
Whatever. Don't try to push this crap off on me or anyone else who has been hand-held (and who has held hands) on IRC with Linux problems. Sure, there's a few folks who will
Well, uh...not really. But a hell of a lot more importantly, none of this stuff even touches kernel development....so go peddle this nonsense in a WINE thread, or at least a desktop Linux one.
No, I'm sure there was some specification by Microsoft on what types of stories they wanted their ads placed next to. If they didn't request something on this story in particular, I would bet they at least asked for Linux spots in general. Along, of course, with lots of other topics of interest. I mean, why shouldn't they?
I have certainly noticed an increase in their placement on Linux stories in the last year or so...
But that's fair...I mean it just makes sense. Of course, the Windows/Linux TCO testing is skewed all to hell, but that's really a different matter entirely. I don't think there's much to get angry about as far as the placement.
I can only assume that this is only going to be limited to SPARC...I mean, we've already seen the major differences between Itanium and Opteron dealing with 32 bit apps, right? Or is this a different question, since Opteron gets to run 32bit effectively "native"? And, at this point, when running 32 bit apps on a 64 bit chip, just what can "native" mean anyway?
Now see here! This fellow hasn't done anything wrong...all he did was ask a good question. Your message is right, that there aren't any rules, but it's certainly not warranted to harass him over the question. His mind isn't immature...it's certainly reasonable to wonder how these guys are going about reconstructing a "faithful rendition" of the original.
Not to mention, I do feel a bit gyped by the compression. I mean, sure, I understand that it is definitely necessary...but still, seems like it's never quite complete that way. Not that I fault the guy...like I said, necessary.
Slashdot Mirror
There's a pre-existing patent on D, so that should suffice.
I have little experience with 10.3, so it is possible that the mail program has been improved.
.2 with OS 10.0.2....but it was completely unstable. Now, that box wasn't very stable to begin with, and Thunderbird is several revisions down the line....but that's not my recommendation either. Real Mozilla is.
However, if you have not had any problems with this app, you are just lucky. I happen to do some technical support as part of my job at a very small ISP, and this client fails more per user than any other one I know of. And when it does, it is often just inexplicable. And googling the error typically reveals several other people with the same problem, and no one who has any fix. Deleting/recreating the account often solves the problem.....but this mail client has the dubious distinction of being the only mail client I have ever used or even heard of that irrevocably deletes all the mail along with the account settings. Yeah...found that out the hard way.
Again, perhaps newer versions are better...but it is of note that my problems with this client don't have anything to do with lack of features, or interface grumbles, or anything else. I don't like it because it is flat out the least reliable agent for the checking of email that I have ever had the misfortune to have to work with.
p.s. Note I am talking about the mail chunk of Mozilla, not Thunderbird. I have only used Thunderbird on a Mac once, and it was Thunderbird
Of course MS would sell you SQL Server for that market. The point is, no one in that market would buy it, because your crazy pipedream notwithstanding, it isn't now, and will likely never be, in the same league as Oracle in any of the three qualifications I gave above (performance, reliability, and scalability).
My employer has completely migrated away from MS SQL Server to PostgreSQL on Linux, for performance, security, and reliability reasons. And this guy doesn't consider Postgres ready for him. So....my guess (and I'm not really going out on any limbs here) is that neither he, nor anyone else with his level of requirements, would or should even consider Windows or MS SQL for the job.
It constantly confounds me WHY none of the open office alternatives leave out this VITAL piece of software.
Uh...possibly because there are lots of perfectly good and free email clients?
Seriously...no matter what platform you are on, there is at least one built-in mail client. The mail app that came with OSX sucks, and should be replaced with Mozilla; and of course Outlook Express isn't great, but it's not any worse than Outlook. But the point is, they are already there, and if you want a good one, it's readily available for free too. So there isn't any need for every office suite to have email.
And where did you hear that Outlook's latest version fixed security problems? It still runs crap from the preview pane, right?
And it isn't easy to find Windoze admins?
No, it's plenty easy to find Windows admins....it's just really tough (read: not possible) to get ahold of a Windows database stack with the performance, reliability, and scalability of Oracle on AIX.
But of course, the important thing here is that Windows wasn't even one of the stated possibilities; it couldn't even really be considered for this. The choices were Linux (on a big Altix box...probably 20+ procs) or AIX (on a 24-proc), either way with Oracle. They mention that the OSS databases aren't there, but it seems to go without saying that Windows doesn't fit in this market segment. What, are you going to use MS SQL Server? Give me a break.
Read it again. He doesn't say Lotus Notes needs WINE...he alledges that it's native, and then says the company should run *office* under WINE.
Now, another reply says that only the Notes server runs on Linux, and that the client does not. And frankly, I don't know which is right.
Also...about the "supported configuration" deal...if you get Crossover Office with the intention of running MS Office on Linux, the Crossover people support the application.
The typical user has several years of experience with Windows.
So, when Windows was released, the typical user had years of experience with DOS. Clearly, no one should ever have switched to Windows. By the way, when you take out this argument, you don't have anything left...studies show that people who haven't used either system find Linux just as easy to use as Windows. Especially if you are a non-English speaker.
It is clearly true that there is more pre-existing Windows knowledge than Linux knowledge. That's why this would be a "switch." But saying, "there's no reason to switch, because we would have to switch" just doesn't make any sense. Come up with a real reason, or just quiet down.
Most hardware will be autodetected and supported by Windows (typical users don't have cutting-edge technology)
Most hardware will be autodetected and supported by Linux (typical users don't have cutting-edge technology)
A huge amount of discussion (maybe the majority) is about the effects of issues on people not reading /.
Perhaps. However, the head of this discussion says simply "This is a good opportunity for Windows users to migrate to a free desktop." And the great^x grandparent just says "when isn't?"...both comments are very obviously directed at this crowd...the crowd reading the comments. If it said "now would be a good time to run around installing Linux on as many neophyte-owned computers as you can get your hands on while they're not looking" your comments would be warranted. But otherwise, we expect you to look at the audience that is reading the suggestion. And they are not typical users.
Oh, yeah, and I forgot to mention...
1)Linux runs on lots more hardware than windows.
2)There is no shortage of documentation. And while I'm at it...where's this fabulous Windows documentation? Quit smoking crack, and quit talking about stuff you know nothing about.
3)Universality isn't a big deal, for a couple of reasons. First, since these are "typical users", they will just equate the distro they got from the hardware vendor or friendly geek to "Linux." So the universality issue doesn't affect them. And also, the differences between distros are not huge...certainly not anything like the difference between Windows 95 and Windows XP...
4)There are lots of real benefits for lots of real people. And don't be so quick to dismiss the costs; it's easy to say that Windows isn't that expensive, but once you add in Office and a couple other programs, the software costs more than the computer. It's funny that you mentioned the GIMP a while ago...that's one of the programs that brought several of my friends in. At least one of those was previously pirating Photoshop (and Windows...) because he couldn't afford it. He said he felt bad about it...so when I showed him something he could have legally, he went for it. Maybe the cost of software isn't an issue for you....but let me tell you, it is a serious issue for the majority of the world's population.
Installing Windows is extremely easy, and no major administration or configuration is necessary for a typical user.
Maybe so, on your fantasy island. Here in the actual world, Windows installations require knowledge of computing just like Linux installations. You might just get lucky, and have all your hardware auto-detected, but you'll have about the same chance of that either way you go. And if you do have to go get drivers for your XP box, it will get over the head of a "typical user" in a hurry. And let's just hope that you didn't try to install XP on top of an old XP installation that you had upgraded to SP1...because if you did, your dialup networking won't work until you go through a registry hack that takes you 10 levels deep into the tree to delete two keys labeled with meaningless numbers. Heck, I even saw a Dell laptop ship that way once. No lie.
Point is, if you expect to hand your granny a WinXP box and a computer and say, "good luck"...you're insane. Why would you expect anything different from Linux?
There was no implication that /. readers were the sole target of the grandparent.
Uh....except for the (rather obvious) fact that /. readers were the only people reading the grandparent?
Thanks a lot to both of you who replied to me; the above has lots of good information, and I notice that indeed, GIMP has added CMYK, which slipped past me, since I don't use it.
Right....sure thing. I pity the poor fools who modded this "insightful."
1)It is true that a "typical user" is not ready to install, configure, and administrate a Linux computer. However, they aren't ready to install, configure, and administrate a Windows computer either. Now...given a properly installed/configured Windows system as it arrives from Dell, most users will be fine. And given a properly installed/configured Linux system as it arrives from one of the Linux hardware vendors, or from your local geek (assuming he/she's good) most users will be similarly fine.
I know this because I have set up several "typical users" on Linux systems, and they are fine.
2)Also, Mr. Insight, did you pause to consider the audience for the statement that now might be a good time to try a free desktop? You know, the slashdot audience?! This was not a statement directed at "typical users."
I don't know where you got these fantastic notions...but I can tell you that it's obvious that you did not get them from using either Windows or Linux. So I'll do the point-by-point.
works out of the box (possibly given a visit to Windows Update)
Look, I've installed, configured, administered, and run every version of Windows since 3.1, and not a single one of them ever did anything useful "out of the box." XP is closer than the others have been, mostly because it has a more comprehensive set of builtin drivers....but it's not anywhere near complete. Not to mention the outrageously long/large Windows Update you so dismissively mention...I pity a dialup user who wants to do a fresh XP install. And then there's the antivirus software you'd better go get unless you're crazy. And since you say not to use Outlook/IE, I guess that means a download of some other browser/email client. And since you say Windows is secure (you really mean "securable") I guess that means you expect us to take the time to turn off and tweak a bunch of services.
What was that about "out of the box"?
autodetects all your hardware (some Linux distros do this yes, but not nearly as well)
So...I guess you've never installed Windows? And you're proving that you haven't ever installed Linux. Or at least that you haven't within the last 3 years.
I, on the other hand, have. I can't speak for all hardware, but I can speak for the 25 or so fresh installs I've done in the last 6-8 months, on very standard hardware. I can tell you that I had to go get drivers from someplace roughly 5 times more often during Windows installs. As a matter of fact, I only have 3 devices that required any manual configuration at all in Linux; two video cards and a wireless card. And I'm being kind to windows; I would say that 15 driver downloads is pretty optimistic really. That's only about 1 per install. Seriously, if you want to keep spewing this, take the Pepsi challenge. Grab five systems at random and throw a couple Linux distros on, see what hardware works "out of the box", and then try Windows XP. You'll be damned surprised.
does NOT get you rooted because the security is there if you know how to use it (and not use IE/Outlook)
Now, look...you can have it one way or the other...but not both. Either Windows works out of the box, but gets you rooted, or it doesn't get you rooted, but doesn't work out of the box. Sorry, but that's the breaks. The last time I installed XP on a machine that wasn't behind a firewall, it took less than 30 seconds to acquire a worm. A real pain in the ass, especially since the updates take so long. And also, it's funny that you specify here that you need to install additional software to replace Lookout and IE...
does play all the latest games and software which I need (the alternatives suck, try comparing Photoshop with GIMP)
First off, I'm not going to talk about games. If your computer is a toy, it's ok by me if you want to run Windows. Matter of fact, it's ok with me if you want to run Windows no matter what you do (well, except things like airplane guidance, or nuclear power plants). But the software stack is there for Linux. And quit dissing the GIMP; it's good enough for every single major movie production house. Think Sony Dreamworks would settle for a second-rate image editing program? No, not likely. Truth is, the GIMP lacks only a few features found in Photoshop, and mostly not very important ones. And it includes many features that Photoshop lacks. Methinks you have the same problem here that you have with Linux; you've used Photoshop a long time, and now the GIMP is worse because it's different.
does have free and competent technical support available which does not have "STFU NOOB" in its vocabulary
Whatever. Don't try to push this crap off on me or anyone else who has been hand-held (and who has held hands) on IRC with Linux problems. Sure, there's a few folks who will
Yeah...yeah, that sounds good! But make mine a malt, ok? A Chocolate malt.
Oooh...and some onion rings.
Right. 2.7 kernel, Chocolate Malt, Onion Rings.
Well, uh...not really. But a hell of a lot more importantly, none of this stuff even touches kernel development....so go peddle this nonsense in a WINE thread, or at least a desktop Linux one.
No, I'm sure there was some specification by Microsoft on what types of stories they wanted their ads placed next to. If they didn't request something on this story in particular, I would bet they at least asked for Linux spots in general. Along, of course, with lots of other topics of interest. I mean, why shouldn't they?
I have certainly noticed an increase in their placement on Linux stories in the last year or so...
But that's fair...I mean it just makes sense. Of course, the Windows/Linux TCO testing is skewed all to hell, but that's really a different matter entirely. I don't think there's much to get angry about as far as the placement.
True dat...no mods today...
But he's right, too...I didn't RTFA. Not even now. And probably not ever.Hehe.
Hey...that's funny...I just called a post off-topic that was a direct quote from the artical.
Cool.
Of course, the funny thing is that I'm right (in a way).
OMG
That was funnier than shit. Too bad I ain't got the mod.
Too bad that's so off-topic; it's funny.
Why don't you pull it out again on a SCO story?
I can only assume that this is only going to be limited to SPARC...I mean, we've already seen the major differences between Itanium and Opteron dealing with 32 bit apps, right? Or is this a different question, since Opteron gets to run 32bit effectively "native"? And, at this point, when running 32 bit apps on a 64 bit chip, just what can "native" mean anyway?
Now see here! This fellow hasn't done anything wrong...all he did was ask a good question. Your message is right, that there aren't any rules, but it's certainly not warranted to harass him over the question. His mind isn't immature...it's certainly reasonable to wonder how these guys are going about reconstructing a "faithful rendition" of the original.
Not to mention, I do feel a bit gyped by the compression. I mean, sure, I understand that it is definitely necessary...but still, seems like it's never quite complete that way. Not that I fault the guy...like I said, necessary.
Doh!
Stupid plaintext post.
Perhaps I should stop (drinking || posting)
Mwahaha....and did I make you burn _three_ modpoints on me?
/.
Yep.
The drop from "excellent" to "good" karma was worth it.
Anyhow, it sure was fun....heehee. Was it good for you? Sounds like it.
Right on....you came to troll, I came to flame...nothing like Friday night
Still, you gotta respect the cumstain on nova gag.
That's cool; how's your version doing? Got anything we can look at? URL?
hehe. yeah. i catch your drift. but, no question about it, there are some nice lookers in the bunch.