Clearly many here on Slashdot are lumping them in together. However, the point is that quite a few posts have berated Microsoft for publishing any numbers that don't have optimization the way they see fit. In other words, with this crowd it's a situation that Microsoft just can't win at.
_TMC_ said they optimized the code. They shouldn't have said it if it wasn't true, or they should have stated their lack of J2EE expertise. Their behavior was unethical if that is the case
Was it faster than the PetStore that Sun provided? Yes? Then they optimized the code. The nuances of every subjective choice aside, if the Java community can do a better job, then shouldn't they just do it? This is not a big application: In the grands scheme of things it's quite tiny, so this isn't such a onerous and impossible task. Let's see some action rather than just talk. Then the Java community, which could fairly approach Sun for funding which I assure you they'd get, could set up a "www.j2eeVsdotnet.com" website and proclaim to the world how they did it in % less code, and it runs % faster. Of course, I truly don't think it's possible, but that's not stopping all you Java fanatics from pretending that it is.
Too bad you can only see the screen when you're sitting in a lawnchair on the sun. Sorry, but the screen on the GBA is absolute crap: Backlight it for crying out loud.
If this is what I think it is, it's the kind of thing that drives Slashdotters nuts.
Right now IBM has plans where you buy a computer, say a big AS/400, and it is fully configured, however the amount of it that you can use depends upon a "Subscription" type plan: You can buy the right to use an additional processor, etc. The idea is that physically deploying the machine, but the people who need it the most subsidize the R&D, etc.
No, if the user requests the default document, e.g. http://www.someurl.com/somedirectory/, rather than a specific file, e.g. http://www.someurl.com/somedirectory/default.asp, then IIS references its list of default documents. This default document list is stored as, well, a list, and IIS goes through each one checking if the file exists (I know because I'd written a ISAPI filter that actually cached these and it sped things up considerably). index.html...nope...index.htm...nope... default.asp...nope...default.aspx...bingo!
I think that, while your rules are correct, there is a parallel set of rules that most Slashdotters obey:
Rule #1: Microsoft is satan incarnate, and everything they make sucks. Rule #2: Anyone who opposes Microsoft is the community's hero.
We've seen this quite a few times with monoliths like Sun or AOL-Timewarner-CNN-Netscape taking a shot at Microsoft and being held in the highest regard. It must really hurt slashdotter's conscience to do that having just finishing ranting aout DRM or something of said company the previous day.
It's an *example* app that demonstrats how to implement certain java features. They did not allow or ask anyone to make a new app they did it themselves then asked MS to make a competing one.
Sun has promoted the PetStore application as an example of Java best practices, and how to implement a Java ecommerce site. Whether they are really trying to make it so burdensome that extra Sun servers are required is beyond the point: It's an example of how Sun recommends that an ecommerce site be implemented in Java. It seems entirely relevant to me.
Even if there exists a "UPER OPTIMIZED PET SHOP APPLICATION" it's doubtfull they would have used it and optimising the current app would kill it's usefullness as a teaching aid.
You have got to be kidding.... If Sun, who hold their own responsibility for putting their platform in the best light (the whole BS on here as if Microsoft should go to great lengths to polish Sun's code is just hilarious), could make a optimized PetStore application, you don't think they would have? They would have it slathered all over the net, and every anti-Microsoftarian would be screaming it from the highest mountaintops (indeed, I'd wager that many of the same busily tried to make just such an example after the last hoopla...strange that we never heard from them). Mind you of course they'd put haughty disclaimers about how they'd whored down the design to Microsoft's standard, but they'd readily do it.
Not on IIS, at least. IIS responds as if the user had requested the default document specifically, however the process of resolving the default document (especially where people have a list of default documents "just in case") can take a relatively considerable amount of time.
Here we have a, not surprizingly, anonymous coward making grand claims about how great J2EE could be if only. I call you on that claim: I challenge all of the Java experts out there, all of who are rushing through this discussion proclaiming that it's all unfair (surprize surprize), to build a functionally equal Java-based PetStore that beats.NET. Okay, how about one that's only 2x slower? 3x slower?
Let's see some action rather than words. It's so easy making grand claims...
First off, you obviously didn't take time to read the articles. Do you have any idea what application we're talking about? It's the java "petstore" application, which specifically was not written for preformance, but for readbility and as an example for proper coding practices. MS wrote the code as an example in performance, but not as an example of good design patterns (although they claim it is).
Bullshit. Architecture astronauts like to design overly complex, overly demanding systems containing a vertical ladder of various component layers and middleware, but in the end such a design virtually always leads to failure (I've been involved with some projects with such astronauts: A year later the project was dumped as they constantly redefined their interface middleware layers). You may not agree with what Microsoft proposes as best practices, but in no way does that mean that you're right.
If anyone is a troll, it's you. This is the classic anti-Microsoft bullshit that Slashdot is so famous for: Whatever Microsoft does is wrong, and whatever [INSERT COMPANY THAT OPPOSES MICROSOFT HERE] does is right. Screw that..NET absolutely OBLITERATES J2EE (we're not talking irrelevant percentages...but by MANY MAGNITUDES) using the design that Microsoft proposes as best for their product (apparently they forgot to consult you, though) versus the design that Sun proposes for their product.
You obviously aren't involved with high-usage websites then, with loads of simultaneous requests from hundreds or thousands of users: It can mean the difference between one server, or three servers. I've found a dramatic difference even in something as trivial as relying on a default document: i.e http://wwww.mywebpage.com/ versus actually referecing it directly http://www.mywebpage.com/default.asp. Does this matter to a small intranet with huge queries? Probably not. Does it matter to large ecommerce sites, or enterprise sites? Absolutely.
Absolutely ridiculous. Note the fact that Slashdot ignored submissions up until the point that someone rebutted it, and then suddenly it had validity. Everytime you take a single study as proving something, without doing your own research, you risk falling for advertising (not "false advertising", but advertising. Car A might be a piece of junk, while Car B is superb, but if Car A has 20HP more you can be damn sure they'll mention that in their ads).
As Microsoft stated with the first one: Before all of the anti-Microsoftarians (of which Slashdot offer a tremendous number) slam this, GO AHEAD AND MAKE A SUPER OPTIMIZED PET SHOP APPLICATION ON THE PLATFORM OF YOUR CHOICE. The Java community, in this case, seems amazingly capable of criticizing this review, while failing to offer alternative proof.
wouldn't this be a step backwards? It is ignoring the vast mental conveyance abilities of the internet to revert to the warn physical ideas that most people are so impressionable about. I think that this might reignate the prior discussions that we've had regarding psychological attachment disorders. People should learn to communicate via things like email or ICQ.
Sometimes an even better approach would be to study the code existing out there first, such as the excellent code offered up by exitfuel. One of the most important pieces of code is the window.open function, and onload and onleave of the body element. Once you have them mastered, along with the Document Model of Objects, you have a good grounding for some serious Flash programming. There are some pretty intense workarounds necessary for some of the mechanisms that people have in place nowadays, but it's definitely doable! Good luck!
Agreed! HTML can be really tough, especially remembering all the closing tags and the esoterics of XHTML, however it can be mastered with some effort!
This guide was a pretty good start for me, and then I mastered the nuances of embedded tags. Don't even get me started about the complexity of CSS cascading! I've programmed axiographical embedded C++ designs (why is C++ mostly programmed by men? I think it's a very feminine language) that were far easier than HTML.
One of the toughtest things about programming for the web is cross platform: Those little differences between platforms that can eat hours of your time trying to figure out whether the platform implements the 3rd or 4th recommendation of the X-DOMVG standard.
Both Intel and AMD are CPUs for home users who don't need performance. Workstation processors, like the SPARC mentioned by my friend sql*kitten, have long known that real performance is obtained by putting even the weakest CPU with a fast I/O design. Indeed, I believe that even a 68040 with a very high scale transverse parallel memory design would give a mid to high end Pentium IV a run for its money. This link demonstrates the truth of this claim: Bandwidth is king.
The real improvements in the x86 world will come when they start quad-pumping and double-cheeling the memory system. Actually I believe that it'll be a great stride forward when they use the new lightpath memory architecture, removing the inherent speed limitations of tungsten interconnects used in modern systems. The elimination of filaments in the CPU core of the amatuer processors will be a good improvement as well.
Slashdot Mirror
First of all, this is TMC, not Microsoft.
Clearly many here on Slashdot are lumping them in together. However, the point is that quite a few posts have berated Microsoft for publishing any numbers that don't have optimization the way they see fit. In other words, with this crowd it's a situation that Microsoft just can't win at.
_TMC_ said they optimized the code. They shouldn't have said it if it wasn't true, or they should have stated their lack of J2EE expertise. Their behavior was unethical if that is the case
Was it faster than the PetStore that Sun provided? Yes? Then they optimized the code. The nuances of every subjective choice aside, if the Java community can do a better job, then shouldn't they just do it? This is not a big application: In the grands scheme of things it's quite tiny, so this isn't such a onerous and impossible task. Let's see some action rather than just talk. Then the Java community, which could fairly approach Sun for funding which I assure you they'd get, could set up a "www.j2eeVsdotnet.com" website and proclaim to the world how they did it in % less code, and it runs % faster. Of course, I truly don't think it's possible, but that's not stopping all you Java fanatics from pretending that it is.
Too bad you can only see the screen when you're sitting in a lawnchair on the sun. Sorry, but the screen on the GBA is absolute crap: Backlight it for crying out loud.
If this is what I think it is, it's the kind of thing that drives Slashdotters nuts.
Right now IBM has plans where you buy a computer, say a big AS/400, and it is fully configured, however the amount of it that you can use depends upon a "Subscription" type plan: You can buy the right to use an additional processor, etc. The idea is that physically deploying the machine, but the people who need it the most subsidize the R&D, etc.
No, if the user requests the default document, e.g. http://www.someurl.com/somedirectory/, rather than a specific file, e.g. http://www.someurl.com/somedirectory/default.asp, then IIS references its list of default documents. This default document list is stored as, well, a list, and IIS goes through each one checking if the file exists (I know because I'd written a ISAPI filter that actually cached these and it sped things up considerably). index.html...nope...index.htm...nope... default.asp...nope...default.aspx...bingo!
I think that, while your rules are correct, there is a parallel set of rules that most Slashdotters obey:
Rule #1: Microsoft is satan incarnate, and everything they make sucks.
Rule #2: Anyone who opposes Microsoft is the community's hero.
We've seen this quite a few times with monoliths like Sun or AOL-Timewarner-CNN-Netscape taking a shot at Microsoft and being held in the highest regard. It must really hurt slashdotter's conscience to do that having just finishing ranting aout DRM or something of said company the previous day.
It's an *example* app that demonstrats how to implement certain java features. They did not allow or ask anyone to make a new app they did it themselves then asked MS to make a competing one.
Sun has promoted the PetStore application as an example of Java best practices, and how to implement a Java ecommerce site. Whether they are really trying to make it so burdensome that extra Sun servers are required is beyond the point: It's an example of how Sun recommends that an ecommerce site be implemented in Java. It seems entirely relevant to me.
Even if there exists a "UPER OPTIMIZED PET SHOP APPLICATION" it's doubtfull they would have used it and optimising the current app would kill it's usefullness as a teaching aid.
You have got to be kidding.... If Sun, who hold their own responsibility for putting their platform in the best light (the whole BS on here as if Microsoft should go to great lengths to polish Sun's code is just hilarious), could make a optimized PetStore application, you don't think they would have? They would have it slathered all over the net, and every anti-Microsoftarian would be screaming it from the highest mountaintops (indeed, I'd wager that many of the same busily tried to make just such an example after the last hoopla...strange that we never heard from them). Mind you of course they'd put haughty disclaimers about how they'd whored down the design to Microsoft's standard, but they'd readily do it.
Not on IIS, at least. IIS responds as if the user had requested the default document specifically, however the process of resolving the default document (especially where people have a list of default documents "just in case") can take a relatively considerable amount of time.
Here we have a, not surprizingly, anonymous coward making grand claims about how great J2EE could be if only. I call you on that claim: I challenge all of the Java experts out there, all of who are rushing through this discussion proclaiming that it's all unfair (surprize surprize), to build a functionally equal Java-based PetStore that beats .NET. Okay, how about one that's only 2x slower? 3x slower?
Let's see some action rather than words. It's so easy making grand claims...
First off, you obviously didn't take time to read the articles. Do you have any idea what application we're talking about? It's the java "petstore" application, which specifically was not written for preformance, but for readbility and as an example for proper coding practices. MS wrote the code as an example in performance, but not as an example of good design patterns (although they claim it is).
.NET absolutely OBLITERATES J2EE (we're not talking irrelevant percentages...but by MANY MAGNITUDES) using the design that Microsoft proposes as best for their product (apparently they forgot to consult you, though) versus the design that Sun proposes for their product.
Bullshit. Architecture astronauts like to design overly complex, overly demanding systems containing a vertical ladder of various component layers and middleware, but in the end such a design virtually always leads to failure (I've been involved with some projects with such astronauts: A year later the project was dumped as they constantly redefined their interface middleware layers). You may not agree with what Microsoft proposes as best practices, but in no way does that mean that you're right.
If anyone is a troll, it's you. This is the classic anti-Microsoft bullshit that Slashdot is so famous for: Whatever Microsoft does is wrong, and whatever [INSERT COMPANY THAT OPPOSES MICROSOFT HERE] does is right. Screw that.
Check the religious zeal at the door.
You obviously aren't involved with high-usage websites then, with loads of simultaneous requests from hundreds or thousands of users: It can mean the difference between one server, or three servers. I've found a dramatic difference even in something as trivial as relying on a default document: i.e http://wwww.mywebpage.com/ versus actually referecing it directly http://www.mywebpage.com/default.asp. Does this matter to a small intranet with huge queries? Probably not. Does it matter to large ecommerce sites, or enterprise sites? Absolutely.
Absolutely ridiculous. Note the fact that Slashdot ignored submissions up until the point that someone rebutted it, and then suddenly it had validity. Everytime you take a single study as proving something, without doing your own research, you risk falling for advertising (not "false advertising", but advertising. Car A might be a piece of junk, while Car B is superb, but if Car A has 20HP more you can be damn sure they'll mention that in their ads).
As Microsoft stated with the first one: Before all of the anti-Microsoftarians (of which Slashdot offer a tremendous number) slam this, GO AHEAD AND MAKE A SUPER OPTIMIZED PET SHOP APPLICATION ON THE PLATFORM OF YOUR CHOICE. The Java community, in this case, seems amazingly capable of criticizing this review, while failing to offer alternative proof.
wouldn't this be a step backwards? It is ignoring the vast mental conveyance abilities of the internet to revert to the warn physical ideas that most people are so impressionable about. I think that this might reignate the prior discussions that we've had regarding psychological attachment disorders. People should learn to communicate via things like email or ICQ.
Thanks for reading!!!!
Sometimes an even better approach would be to study the code existing out there first, such as the excellent code offered up by exitfuel. One of the most important pieces of code is the window.open function, and onload and onleave of the body element. Once you have them mastered, along with the Document Model of Objects, you have a good grounding for some serious Flash programming. There are some pretty intense workarounds necessary for some of the mechanisms that people have in place nowadays, but it's definitely doable! Good luck!
tag- Why don't most girls like programming?
Agreed! HTML can be really tough, especially remembering all the closing tags and the esoterics of XHTML, however it can be mastered with some effort!
This guide was a pretty good start for me, and then I mastered the nuances of embedded tags. Don't even get me started about the complexity of CSS cascading! I've programmed axiographical embedded C++ designs (why is C++ mostly programmed by men? I think it's a very feminine language) that were far easier than HTML.
One of the toughtest things about programming for the web is cross platform: Those little differences between platforms that can eat hours of your time trying to figure out whether the platform implements the 3rd or 4th recommendation of the X-DOMVG standard.
Both Intel and AMD are CPUs for home users who don't need performance. Workstation processors, like the SPARC mentioned by my friend sql*kitten, have long known that real performance is obtained by putting even the weakest CPU with a fast I/O design. Indeed, I believe that even a 68040 with a very high scale transverse parallel memory design would give a mid to high end Pentium IV a run for its money. This link demonstrates the truth of this claim: Bandwidth is king.
The real improvements in the x86 world will come when they start quad-pumping and double-cheeling the memory system. Actually I believe that it'll be a great stride forward when they use the new lightpath memory architecture, removing the inherent speed limitations of tungsten interconnects used in modern systems. The elimination of filaments in the CPU core of the amatuer processors will be a good improvement as well.
Thank you for listening!
grrrlllpower