The HSD system in Prius delivers low emissions and high efficiency.
The hydrogen push for fool-cells is nothing but talk, with no obvious goals. Creating hydrogen is actually more dirty than simply just using ordinary gas in a Prius. Cost is drastically more than Prius. Reliability of Prius will be proven to an extreme long before an affordable fuel-cell vehicle will be available. And of course, the efficiency of can't even compete with traditional vehicles.
Until those against hybrids can actually deliver a product that is better, don't believe any claims or promises.
> The Prius is also significaly more complicated than the Honda cars are
Actually, it is LESS complicated.
Unfamiliar does not more more complicated, though that is what you are claiming.
Just study the engineering. The PSD (Power-Split Device) like a differential... elegantly simple. That's it! There aren't any other parts and nothing ever shift, the carriers are all permanently engaged. You can't get any more simple than that!
All of the cars can drive on the gas engine alone if something goes wrong with the electric motor.
Electric motors have a dramatically higher reliability rate than gasoline engines.
In reality, the HSD system Toyota (built from scratch with no concern for resembling traditional design) is remarkably simple.
> The engineer that talked about the Prius "running off batteries and not using gas" must have been off his rocker, if what you describe is correct. The energy has to come from somewhere
That deceptive technique for redirecting focus won't work. Many of us are well aware of what he really said. The point was the vehicle can be driven without the need to run the engine. That means opportunities for conversation are greatly increased, delaying recharging until more efficient times.
> The numbers back this up: in city driving, a hybrid frequently turns in extremely disappointing MPG numbers due to these inefficiencies
Your "on paper" calculations, perhaps. But the real-world numbers prove otherwise. They clearly show outstanding efficiency for city driving. Heck, the last 10 minutes of my commute this morning in my 2004 Prius was in excess of 100 MPG. Virtaully all of the driving after getting off the highway was done using only electricity... hence my 54.3 MPG average right now.
> high speed highway driving, merging, and passing will often require 100% of available drive line power, this is where hybrids fall down.
That is just plain wrong.
In reality, the system in Prius has so much engine power available that most of the time while cruising at highway speeds it is also topping off the battery-pack.
100% engine is not needed for cruising, only for aggressive acceleration. But even then, you have a 50kW motor (capable of propelling the entire vehicle all by itself at about 60 MPH) available along with a full-charged battery-pack.
That's more than enough power. A quick test-drive is all that's needed to prove it.
The 59,827 miles with my 2001 Prius resulted in a 45.4 MPG lifetime average... in MINNESOTA! The extreme cold only forced the MPG down to around 40 during the winter. Last summer, I average 50 MPG the entire season.
Now in my 2004 Prius, the winter only pushed the MPG down to around 45. Now that it is finally warming and the car is broken-in, I'm averaging 52 MPG.
ALL THAT WAS ACHIEVED USING E10! That's a 10% ethanol blend with gas... which causes the efficiency to be about 3.4% lower than it would have been using 100% gas.
Anywho, my Prius is clearly living up to the mileage claim.
My most recent 6 tanks in a row have all calculated to over 50 MPG at the pump (detailed data is available on my website). In fact, my summer driving of 4,741 miles calculated to an average of just a tad under 50 MPG. So effeciency is great!
Since I live in Minnesota, I can speak highly for the reliability. The Prius handled 3 winters of extreme cold (-13^F is the coldest I've encountered), snow, and ice without any trouble whatsoever. The engine started every time immediately, the heat blew from the vents in no time flat, and the traction (along with the anti-lock brakes) has proven itself quite well.
It's a great car. And the 2004 will be even better. It's larger, faster, more powerful, cleaner, and even more efficient!
> How is converting water to hydrogen a dirty process? It depends on where you get your energy.
You answered your own question.
Energy is needed to do the conversion. The most realistic/common/abundant/inexpensive source of that energy *currently* is electricity created from coal burning sources. That's far from clean.
We don't have mass quantities of renewable sources of electricity that are completely clean *yet*. In fact, many of us don't even have small quantities available *yet*.
And to add to the problem, the MPG equivalent of hydrogen is quite a bit lower than gasoline *currently*.
So when you take the entire "well to wheel" factors into account, a SULEV hybrid is *currently* cleaner than a fuel-cell vehicle.
> I don't know where you picked up some of your stuff, or your termanology (sp) but it's not very accurate.
I am one of the leaders of the most well informed hybrid groups on the web, the "Toyota-Prius" group on Yahoo. There are nearly 5,300 international members and over 50,000 messages there now. They heavily research and provide feedback on everything I do.
Anything you claim to be incorrect can easily be countered based on the arsenal of facts I have readily available. Bring it on! My purpose is to provide the most accurate information possible. In the rare event that a fact is disproven or simply changes due to progress having actually occured, I can provide an update. That's why every webpage clearly displays a "Last Updated" date, to show that I do exactly that.
> You don't need two motors to generate electricity and propel the vehicle
Yes, you can alternate function. But without that ability to do both *SIMULTANEOUSLY*, you lack flexibility (hence, not "full").
An "assist" hybrid system must carefully manage power to be able to perform a long steep climb, since it drains the battery-pack on the way up.
A "full" hybrid system usally doesn't drain the battery-pack at all when climbing. In fact, it does exactly the opposite. It can increase engine RPM enough to charge the battery-pack when climbing. So there's always reserve power available. This is especially helpful if the climb is extremely long or there's a flat highway at the top. An "assist" system could struggle if a recharge opportunity isn't readily available to replenish the drained battery-pack.
Being able to create & use electricity immediately, rather than always needing a storage medium, is a huge benefit. The battery-pack will last a much longer time if you don't always need it.
And if you insist on not calling that design "full", you should suggest an alternate term. You definitely can't call it a "two motor" system, since an "assist" system could have a motor mounted to each wheel. In fact, there already is a hybrid that does that. It's called "Estima", the 4WD hybrid currently available in Japan.
> I assume its because the electric motor is taxed much more at high speeds
That comment isn't even remotely correct, but it is a very good guess based on conventional knowledge.
In reality, when cruising on a highway in a Prius, the engine is doing all the work. It BOTH propels the car AND generates electricity to recharge the battery-pack.
Then when you get off the highway, you have the opportunity to drive using ONLY electricity since the battery-pack was topped-off while cruising.
"Stealth" (being able to drive up to 42 MPH with the engine running, known for its silent operation) is what gives Prius such great MPG in the city.
> The insight and civic are mild hybirds and should not be to closely compaired to the prius.
Insight & Civic are "ASSIST" hybrids. Prius is a "FULL" hybrid. There is a very significant difference in the way the 2 types work.
In a "FULL" hybrid, you have the ability to both create & consume electricity on-the-fly (without needing to use the battery-pack at all). That's because you have 2 motors. An "ASSIST" hybrid has just 1 motor. "FULL" hybrids offer more efficiency opportunities since they can also be driven using only electricity, without the engine running at all.
The point, of course, for either design is to improve emissions & efficiency. Both deliver those results.
> It meets zero-emissions standards by exhaling water vapor--no noxious fumes and no greenhouse gases.
That statement is very misleading.
While true that the emissions from the tailpipe are clean, the process to create the fuel isn't. Extracting hydrogen from water or another fuel is a DIRTY process; it's inefficient too. Based on current fuel-cell technology, you're better much off with a SULEV hybrid from instead.
> Why not make a cool, aggressively styled, Jetsons looking future-mobile? But no. You get a car that looks like a box a car should come in.
Your comments don't make any sense.
The front-end of Prius has very high emphasis on a bubble-shaped contour. That's exactly what the future-mobile's in the Jetsons look like. That's also the extreme opposite of a box. In fact, it's the style that some people have trouble accepting, they feel it's too aggressively different from the norm.
>I am considering to get a hybrid, but I'll wait till they nailed it down!
How long do you need to wait?
Prius has been on the road since 1997 and over 120,000 have sold worldwide. So it's well proven in every driving condition imaginable. There's even one documented case of Prius used as a cab having exceeded 200,000 miles using the original battery-pack already. And to top all that, the 3rd generation design is on the way. (Rumor is that it will be available this fall.)
My Prius is completing its 3rd winter in Minnesota. (Extreme cold really hurts MPG in all vehicles.) (I get around 40 MPG in the frigid months and 50 MPG in the warm.) My overall real-world performance after driving 47,000 miles is 44.8 MPG.
> don't forget that the batteries in these vehciles DO go bad after 30-50,000 miles
There are hybrids on US roads that now have over 70,000 miles on them already. The battery-packs are just fine. How do you explain that?
Then there's a Prius cab up in Vancouver than now has over 160,000 miles on it, with the original battery-pack still. Hmm?
My Prius now has 41,800 miles on it. The battery-pack on it hasn't weakened in the slightest. And I drive in stealth (electric-only driving up to 42 MPH without the engine running) as much as I can. My website documents my experiences in great detail. Proof to eliminate all doubt will be available just a few years from now. Then what?
Not even close. My calculated average after 41,725 miles (mostly highway) in Minnesota where the cold seriously degrades efficiency is 45.0 MPG. How do you explain that?
This summer, with my new Non-LRR tires which degrade MPG by about 3, I was getting 48 MPG. With LRR (Low Rolling Resistance) tires, it would have been 51 MPG.
And I did it all with only SULEV emissions. That's the cleanest rating on the CA scale. The Jetta TDI is the opposite extreme. It is actually below average for emissions.
> Prius does 0-60 in 14.1 sec
You might want to check your facts. Prius is only 0.5 slower than Camry.
> diesels loud
You can say that again. I drove a road-rally this year with my own Prius, another Prius, an Insight, a Civic-Hybrid, and a Jetta TDI. It was shocking to hear the cluttering of that diesel engine. True, they aren't anywhere near as bad as they used to be. But they are definitely much, much, much, much louder than a Prius driving around in "stealth" without an engine running at all.
> Did I mention the TDI has zero CO emmissions?
Yes, but not the NOx & HC emissions... because they're horrible. CO only relates to "global warming". NOx & HC cause smog. Reducing those should be a priority. SULEV addresses that. High MPG only addresses CO emissions.
I suggest you visit my website to put an end to these misconceptions.
Misconceptions... Whoa! These treads are loaded with them.
http://john1701a.com is my website. I've used it to very thoroughly document my Prius experiences over the last 2 years. To clear up the confusion here, you may want to check it out. I'm at 41,725 miles as of today. Driving every single mile of that was great!
I love pushing the accelerator down to shock disbelievers (pun intended). The burst speed you can get from motor is really impressive.
"Stealth" (electric-only driving without the engine running up to 42 MPH) is beyond description, you have to experience it first-hand.
You never have to worry about the well-being of the battery-pack either. The hybrid system carefully protects it from ever deep discharging. (That's quite the opposite of electric-only vehicles!) So the expected +150,000 mile battery-pack life really is realistic. (In fact, a Prius cab up in Vancouver has already racked up 160,000 miles and is still going strong!)
The fact that Prius can create electricity on-the-fly is a key feature that isn't well known. You typically don't even to draw from the battery-pack. The engine is capable of generating so much electricity that you can actually top-off the battery-pack while driving *up* hill and also using the motor for additional torque.
45.0 MPG is my calculated lifetime performance. Living in Minnesota, that's extremely impressive. The very cold weather hurts MPG a lot. It helps to reduce our dependence on oil.
SULEV is what I value the most. Driving around a vehicle that clean *today* gives me a wonderful feeling. It helps reduce the ever-growing smog problem we have.
Visit my website for additional information, you won't be disappointed.
Slashdot Mirror
> Stop-and-go, below-35 city driving results in lower MPG than 45MPH no-stops riving.
Most people call both of those conditions "city", hence the difference of opinion.
> The Honda IMA system is considerably less complex than the Toyota system.
There is no basis for "considerably". Overall, Honda adds components to a traditional system, Toyota subtracts. Explain that.
Another perspective is looking at cost. Why doesn't HSD cost more?
Don't believe it until you see it.
The HSD system in Prius delivers low emissions and high efficiency.
The hydrogen push for fool-cells is nothing but talk, with no obvious goals. Creating hydrogen is actually more dirty than simply just using ordinary gas in a Prius. Cost is drastically more than Prius. Reliability of Prius will be proven to an extreme long before an affordable fuel-cell vehicle will be available. And of course, the efficiency of can't even compete with traditional vehicles.
Until those against hybrids can actually deliver a product that is better, don't believe any claims or promises.
> The Prius is also significaly more complicated than the Honda cars are
Actually, it is LESS complicated.
Unfamiliar does not more more complicated, though that is what you are claiming.
Just study the engineering. The PSD (Power-Split Device) like a differential... elegantly simple. That's it! There aren't any other parts and nothing ever shift, the carriers are all permanently engaged. You can't get any more simple than that!
All of the cars can drive on the gas engine alone if something goes wrong with the electric motor.
Electric motors have a dramatically higher reliability rate than gasoline engines.
> is less complicated than the Toyota system
Unfamiliar does not mean more complicated.
In reality, the HSD system Toyota (built from scratch with no concern for resembling traditional design) is remarkably simple.
> The engineer that talked about the Prius "running off batteries and not using gas" must have been off his rocker, if what you describe is correct. The energy has to come from somewhere
That deceptive technique for redirecting focus won't work. Many of us are well aware of what he really said. The point was the vehicle can be driven without the need to run the engine. That means opportunities for conversation are greatly increased, delaying recharging until more efficient times.
> The numbers back this up: in city driving, a hybrid frequently turns in extremely disappointing MPG numbers due to these inefficiencies
Your "on paper" calculations, perhaps. But the real-world numbers prove otherwise. They clearly show outstanding efficiency for city driving. Heck, the last 10 minutes of my commute this morning in my 2004 Prius was in excess of 100 MPG. Virtaully all of the driving after getting off the highway was done using only electricity... hence my 54.3 MPG average right now.
> high speed highway driving, merging, and passing will often require 100% of available drive line power, this is where hybrids fall down.
That is just plain wrong.
In reality, the system in Prius has so much engine power available that most of the time while cruising at highway speeds it is also topping off the battery-pack.
100% engine is not needed for cruising, only for aggressive acceleration. But even then, you have a 50kW motor (capable of propelling the entire vehicle all by itself at about 60 MPH) available along with a full-charged battery-pack.
That's more than enough power. A quick test-drive is all that's needed to prove it.
The 59,827 miles with my 2001 Prius resulted in a 45.4 MPG lifetime average... in MINNESOTA! The extreme cold only forced the MPG down to around 40 during the winter. Last summer, I average 50 MPG the entire season.
Now in my 2004 Prius, the winter only pushed the MPG down to around 45. Now that it is finally warming and the car is broken-in, I'm averaging 52 MPG.
ALL THAT WAS ACHIEVED USING E10! That's a 10% ethanol blend with gas... which causes the efficiency to be about 3.4% lower than it would have been using 100% gas.
Anywho, my Prius is clearly living up to the mileage claim.
My most recent 6 tanks in a row have all calculated to over 50 MPG at the pump (detailed data is available on my website). In fact, my summer driving of 4,741 miles calculated to an average of just a tad under 50 MPG. So effeciency is great!
Since I live in Minnesota, I can speak highly for the reliability. The Prius handled 3 winters of extreme cold (-13^F is the coldest I've encountered), snow, and ice without any trouble whatsoever. The engine started every time immediately, the heat blew from the vents in no time flat, and the traction (along with the anti-lock brakes) has proven itself quite well.
It's a great car. And the 2004 will be even better. It's larger, faster, more powerful, cleaner, and even more efficient!
> How is converting water to hydrogen a dirty process? It depends on where you get your energy.
You answered your own question.
Energy is needed to do the conversion. The most realistic/common/abundant/inexpensive source of that energy *currently* is electricity created from coal burning sources. That's far from clean.
We don't have mass quantities of renewable sources of electricity that are completely clean *yet*. In fact, many of us don't even have small quantities available *yet*.
And to add to the problem, the MPG equivalent of hydrogen is quite a bit lower than gasoline *currently*.
So when you take the entire "well to wheel" factors into account, a SULEV hybrid is *currently* cleaner than a fuel-cell vehicle.
> I don't know where you picked up some of your stuff, or your termanology (sp) but it's not very accurate.
I am one of the leaders of the most well informed hybrid groups on the web, the "Toyota-Prius" group on Yahoo. There are nearly 5,300 international members and over 50,000 messages there now. They heavily research and provide feedback on everything I do.
Anything you claim to be incorrect can easily be countered based on the arsenal of facts I have readily available. Bring it on! My purpose is to provide the most accurate information possible. In the rare event that a fact is disproven or simply changes due to progress having actually occured, I can provide an update. That's why every webpage clearly displays a "Last Updated" date, to show that I do exactly that.
> You don't need two motors to generate electricity and propel the vehicle
Yes, you can alternate function. But without that ability to do both *SIMULTANEOUSLY*, you lack flexibility (hence, not "full").
An "assist" hybrid system must carefully manage power to be able to perform a long steep climb, since it drains the battery-pack on the way up.
A "full" hybrid system usally doesn't drain the battery-pack at all when climbing. In fact, it does exactly the opposite. It can increase engine RPM enough to charge the battery-pack when climbing. So there's always reserve power available. This is especially helpful if the climb is extremely long or there's a flat highway at the top. An "assist" system could struggle if a recharge opportunity isn't readily available to replenish the drained battery-pack.
> Most CVT's can't handle more than 150 lb-ft.
Prius can though. It can deliver 258 lb-ft. having a large (33kW) motor connected directly to the power system.
> You can have full hybirds with one motor.
How? It's not "full" if you lack an ability.
Being able to create & use electricity immediately, rather than always needing a storage medium, is a huge benefit. The battery-pack will last a much longer time if you don't always need it.
And if you insist on not calling that design "full", you should suggest an alternate term. You definitely can't call it a "two motor" system, since an "assist" system could have a motor mounted to each wheel. In fact, there already is a hybrid that does that. It's called "Estima", the 4WD hybrid currently available in Japan.
> I assume its because the electric motor is taxed much more at high speeds
That comment isn't even remotely correct, but it is a very good guess based on conventional knowledge.
In reality, when cruising on a highway in a Prius, the engine is doing all the work. It BOTH propels the car AND generates electricity to recharge the battery-pack.
Then when you get off the highway, you have the opportunity to drive using ONLY electricity since the battery-pack was topped-off while cruising.
"Stealth" (being able to drive up to 42 MPH with the engine running, known for its silent operation) is what gives Prius such great MPG in the city.
> The insight and civic are mild hybirds and should not be to closely compaired to the prius.
Insight & Civic are "ASSIST" hybrids. Prius is a "FULL" hybrid. There is a very significant difference in the way the 2 types work.
In a "FULL" hybrid, you have the ability to both create & consume electricity on-the-fly (without needing to use the battery-pack at all). That's because you have 2 motors. An "ASSIST" hybrid has just 1 motor. "FULL" hybrids offer more efficiency opportunities since they can also be driven using only electricity, without the engine running at all.
The point, of course, for either design is to improve emissions & efficiency. Both deliver those results.
> It meets zero-emissions standards by exhaling water vapor--no noxious fumes and no greenhouse gases.
That statement is very misleading.
While true that the emissions from the tailpipe are clean, the process to create the fuel isn't. Extracting hydrogen from water or another fuel is a DIRTY process; it's inefficient too. Based on current fuel-cell technology, you're better much off with a SULEV hybrid from instead.
> Why not make a cool, aggressively styled, Jetsons looking future-mobile? But no. You get a car that looks like a box a car should come in.
Your comments don't make any sense.
The front-end of Prius has very high emphasis on a bubble-shaped contour. That's exactly what the future-mobile's in the Jetsons look like. That's also the extreme opposite of a box. In fact, it's the style that some people have trouble accepting, they feel it's too aggressively different from the norm.
>I am considering to get a hybrid, but I'll wait till they nailed it down!
How long do you need to wait?
Prius has been on the road since 1997 and over 120,000 have sold worldwide. So it's well proven in every driving condition imaginable. There's even one documented case of Prius used as a cab having exceeded 200,000 miles using the original battery-pack already. And to top all that, the 3rd generation design is on the way. (Rumor is that it will be available this fall.)
My Prius is completing its 3rd winter in Minnesota. (Extreme cold really hurts MPG in all vehicles.) (I get around 40 MPG in the frigid months and 50 MPG in the warm.) My overall real-world performance after driving 47,000 miles is 44.8 MPG.
> don't forget that the batteries in these vehciles DO go bad after 30-50,000 miles
There are hybrids on US roads that now have over 70,000 miles on them already. The battery-packs are just fine. How do you explain that?
Then there's a Prius cab up in Vancouver than now has over 160,000 miles on it, with the original battery-pack still. Hmm?
My Prius now has 41,800 miles on it. The battery-pack on it hasn't weakened in the slightest. And I drive in stealth (electric-only driving up to 42 MPH without the engine running) as much as I can. My website documents my experiences in great detail. Proof to eliminate all doubt will be available just a few years from now. Then what?
> Prius gets 43/41 mpg
Not even close. My calculated average after 41,725 miles (mostly highway) in Minnesota where the cold seriously degrades efficiency is 45.0 MPG. How do you explain that?
This summer, with my new Non-LRR tires which degrade MPG by about 3, I was getting 48 MPG. With LRR (Low Rolling Resistance) tires, it would have been 51 MPG.
And I did it all with only SULEV emissions. That's the cleanest rating on the CA scale. The Jetta TDI is the opposite extreme. It is actually below average for emissions.
> Prius does 0-60 in 14.1 sec
You might want to check your facts. Prius is only 0.5 slower than Camry.
> diesels loud
You can say that again. I drove a road-rally this year with my own Prius, another Prius, an Insight, a Civic-Hybrid, and a Jetta TDI. It was shocking to hear the cluttering of that diesel engine. True, they aren't anywhere near as bad as they used to be. But they are definitely much, much, much, much louder than a Prius driving around in "stealth" without an engine running at all.
> Did I mention the TDI has zero CO emmissions?
Yes, but not the NOx & HC emissions... because they're horrible. CO only relates to "global warming". NOx & HC cause smog. Reducing those should be a priority. SULEV addresses that. High MPG only addresses CO emissions.
I suggest you visit my website to put an end to these misconceptions.
Misconceptions... Whoa! These treads are loaded with them.
http://john1701a.com is my website. I've used it to very thoroughly document my Prius experiences over the last 2 years. To clear up the confusion here, you may want to check it out. I'm at 41,725 miles as of today. Driving every single mile of that was great!
I love pushing the accelerator down to shock disbelievers (pun intended). The burst speed you can get from motor is really impressive.
"Stealth" (electric-only driving without the engine running up to 42 MPH) is beyond description, you have to experience it first-hand.
You never have to worry about the well-being of the battery-pack either. The hybrid system carefully protects it from ever deep discharging. (That's quite the opposite of electric-only vehicles!) So the expected +150,000 mile battery-pack life really is realistic. (In fact, a Prius cab up in Vancouver has already racked up 160,000 miles and is still going strong!)
The fact that Prius can create electricity on-the-fly is a key feature that isn't well known. You typically don't even to draw from the battery-pack. The engine is capable of generating so much electricity that you can actually top-off the battery-pack while driving *up* hill and also using the motor for additional torque.
45.0 MPG is my calculated lifetime performance. Living in Minnesota, that's extremely impressive. The very cold weather hurts MPG a lot. It helps to reduce our dependence on oil.
SULEV is what I value the most. Driving around a vehicle that clean *today* gives me a wonderful feeling. It helps reduce the ever-growing smog problem we have.
Visit my website for additional information, you won't be disappointed.