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Toyota to Move to All Hybrid Vehicles By 2012
ftumph writes "Toyota has announced that
all their vehicles will be gas-electric hybrids by 2012. The plan is to eliminate the current $3,000 per vehicle additional cost for hybrid engines through mass production."
Finally, it is about time that an auto manufacturer step up to the plate. Too bad it is not an american mfg.
Who are you? The new #2 Who is #1? You are #617565. I am not a number, I am a free man! Muhahaha.
I think I'd rather see Hydrogen Fuel cell vehicles than hybrids. From what I've read, the fuel cell vehicles are more efficient not to mention cleaner. But I guess all of these thing take time, no?
Derek Greene
Real cool
for this to become a reality. That 2012 deadline will likely be pushed back. Until they can get power output up Americans just aren't going to buy these things in droves. Then again, maybe Toyota is just tired of making all that money. >
So now the government will raise the price of electricity too! Feel sorry for California.
Of course this could be done now but the Big Oil people still want to squeeze some more out before they change to electricity.
Maybe the EPA will back off of them if they burn their own oil for electricity and then sell us the electricity so the_cars_run cleaner but the factories are still spewing out the crap.
This SIG pulled due to lack of funding. (This damn war is costing too much!)
What would be really cool would be a hybrid Wankel-electric engine. You'd get the smoothness and high power to weight ratio of the wankel combined with the efficiency of the electric motor. Mazda, any plans for the RX-9? :-)
Stick Men
---- .sig
Link
2012? Isn't that the year the Mayan calendar ends?
Great, any step which takes us further away from an oil economy can only be a good thing for world stability, the environment and the economy.
Coupled with yesterdays news that gas mileage is continuing to drop in 2003 models, this is a great announcement.
As an Insight owner, I try to keep up with this stuff. Turns out Toyota has retracted that promise, saying that there was a "misinterpretation" on the Japanese end.
Can't find the link, but here's the WSJ article re: same:
Toyota Still Plans to Sell 300,000 Hybrid Vehicles a Year By 2005
Friday October 25, 5:19 pm ET
By Norihiko Shirouzu, Staff Reporter of The Wall Street Journal
DETROIT -- Toyota Motor Corp. reaffirmed it aims to sell a total of 300, 000 super-efficient, electric-gasoline hybrid vehicles a year by 2005.
Toyota's reaffirmation came in response to a news report earlier this week that said the auto maker plans to use hybrid engines in all vehicles by 2012 to increase fuel efficiency and reduce tailpipe emissions. The report also said Toyota won't sell 300,000 hybrids annually until 2007.
Kevin Webber, a Toyota spokesman in Ann Arbor, Mich., said the report was " inaccurate," which he said stemmed from a "misinterpretation" of comments in Japanese made by a Toyota executive.
Mr. Webber said it is "technically infeasible" to use hybrid systems in all vehicles Toyota sells around the world in 10 years. He said Toyota continues to aim to sell 300,000 hybrids a year by about 2005.
Last month, Toyota's president Fujio Cho said the No. 1 Japanese auto maker will expand its lineup of gasoline-electric hybrid vehicles into larger vehicles, such as midsized sport-utility vehicles and minivans, as it tries to sell a total of 300,000 hybrids a year by 2005.
Cho said Toyota "will expand hybrid systems into an array of models, including larger vehicles."
Already, Toyota recently has begun selling in Japan a hybrid minivan called the Estima. In the U.S., Toyota currently sells only one hybrid, the small Prius car, while in Japan its lineup includes the Prius and a Crown luxury car equipped with a so-called "mild" hybrid system, in addition to the Estima.
-Norihiko Shirouzu, The Wall Street Journal
Slashdot search is down, but I managed to find at least a press release for what I'm talking about at GM's website here.
:(
Toyota's plan will add more weight, bulk, and complexity to the car, while simultaneously reducing acceleration, handling, and passenger space. With all the cons above, I don't think many people will consider it a viable alternative to straight combustion engines.
GM's AUTOnomy project not only has the potential for greater acceleration, being a transmissionless electric auto platform, but having motors in each wheel means most vehicles will be able to (literally!) turn on a dime. It's a 100% fuel cell vehicle, and all the workings fit in a 6" high plate at the bottom of the vehicle. It makes the car safer, lighter, easier to handle, and since there is no engine, no battery packs, and basically nothing above ankle-height, passenger safety is vastly improved (no engine to break your legs in a crash) along with comfort.
Which car will Americans choose? Well, I guess it actually all depends on who's marketing their car more agressively.
True science means that when you re-evaluate the evidence, you re-evaluate your faith.
...they don't have any true high-performance cars left. :D
i just can't imagine a supra tt or a mkII mr2 turbo running nearly as fast on a hybrid engine as on a pure gas motor. although a really small, light nimble car like a mkIII mr2 or a miata could probably work well with a hybrid, especially with the smooth throttle control the electric motor. and who knows, i could be wrong and we could have 2.4L 550-hp 38mpg hybrid engines in two years.
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. - Aldous Huxley
Great.. maybe now with the cars using less fuel, I'll get less emails from people telling me how I shouldn't buy gasoline from certain companies because they pump oil from the middle east..
Never hit your grandmother with a shovel, for it leaves a bad impression on her mind...
pray tell... how fast does your car need to go? My country has speed limits on most of the roads. Anything over 80 mph is overkill, unless you're running from the cops. If you're talking about racing performance, then that's something else entirely, and has nothing to do with consumer vehicles.
But as always greedy americans, too lazy to change, gee HDTV when??!! never because we can't agree. Little soccer mommies, yakking away on thir phones, driving an SUV 30x times thier size, getting 1mpg on the highway .5 city. Things need to change, but they will be slow because the main populace is a bunch of greedy un-informed sheep.
/me steps off the soap box.
Ubuntu- Linux for human beings.
I'd be a little concerned about buying one of these vehicles unless the manufacturer made a real effort to provide education to the masses about how to service them. How expensive is service going to be? Can I grab my buddies, tools and a case of beer and nut it out myself? These things are important.
-1 Uncomfortable Truth
I'm telling you, hybrids are great!
When I was looking for a new car, I test drove the Toyota Prius and the Honda Insite. Both cars were awesomely silent when you got up to cruising mode. It was actually kinda eerie!
Anyway, I ended up going with a VW Golf TDi (another high efficiency vehicle).
Long story short, hybrid vehicles are really great and they're a good intermediate step between petroleum based fuels and electric cars.
"It's a tarp!" -- Dyslexic Admiral Ackbar
Toyota's always been a visionary and hit the moving market targets well. Think back to the early-to-mid 80's, and you'll remember that they had great affordable sports cars (Celica, Supra) at exactly the time when sports cars were the rage. During the 90's, they let their sports cars get bloated, because the market was about luxury, and they axed the cars before they became jokes (think Camaro).
At the same time, in the early 90s, they were rolling out a big line of SUV's. Today, with SUV's all the rage, Toyota has models for everybody - the RAV4, the 4runner, the big Land Cruiser, the Highlander, you name it - plus all the models they sell under the Lexus brand.
If Toyota says their models will all be green-friendly in 2012, you'd better believe that they're going to be in the right place at the right time again, and green vehicles will be all the rage. Toyota does brilliant product planning.
What's your damage, Heather?
I really can't wait to see the the air car come out!
Now that's going to be exciting. I highly recommend reading the site. Also if I read the FAQ correctly it says that the vehicles will cost between $8000 and $10,000.
An interesting fact is that the air that comes out of the Air Car is cleaner that when it entered the car. Not only is it zero pollution, but it cleans the air!
"It's a tarp!" -- Dyslexic Admiral Ackbar
but late. It is interesting that Toyota is going ahead with this first, but with that kind of a ship date, they could be outdone easily.
"And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the World"
1 John 4:14
all new cars are like this. At the very least, you need computerized diagnostic tools for many things. Most automotive repair these days takes training and sophisticated tools.
The gas motor is running continually while the electric motor kicks in only for bursts of speed and acceleration.
If the gas motor simply powered the batteries, the system would still require some kind of charge in order to keep the power level up. Plus, the car would weigh quite a bit more, since it would need to carry a significantly higher number of batteries. The car would also have a much lower top speed as well.
If you ignore the other uses of a tool, does that make the tool less useful, or you less useful?
I can see the rolling blackouts already
In other news: The power companies are asking that you turn off your A/C while you refuel your car
HallmarkOrnaments.Com
These cars do not need to be plugged into anything. They are charged by the gas motor, which is running all of the time, the electric motor only kicks in for acceleration and bursts of speed.
The only issue you would have is that eventually, the batteries would need to be changed. However, they will last for quite a few years and by the time they need to be replaced. They would hopefully be produced in such quantities as to be rather inexpensive.
If you ignore the other uses of a tool, does that make the tool less useful, or you less useful?
It says in the article that the hybrid cars would get 50 miles to the gallon.
We used to own a family sedan (Volkswagen Passat) which got 45 miles to the galon of Diesel fuel. Driven economically, you could get it up to about 70 miles a galon. This was 8 years ago.
And here in Germany VW have had the 3l Lupo, where the 3l standing for 3l/100km consumption, which translates to about 75mpg, out a couple of years also.
So I ask you: Is 50mpg really that good?
You do know what hybrid vehicles are, don't you? They don't plug in.
Operating an electric vehicle may not be as cheap as you may think. Currently, gas taxes go to support maintaining and expanding the roadways. Once enough people jump on the electric bandwagon, I could see the government imposing many of the same kinds of taxes on electricity. And I don't know if you've noticed, but electricity hasn't been getting that much cheaper lately.
Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
I am not sure how many people will be willing to make the switch themselves. I was very much looking forward to buying a Toyota Prius, but I recently found out that the hybrid cars of today require you to change the batteries every 3 yrs and it costs $6000-7000 to replace them and they are not as powerful now. But maybe all this will change by 2012.
The problem with most of the engines from japanese manufacturers these days is a lack of torque. If you were to combine one of these engines with an electric motor, which put out gobs of torque regardless of RPM's, you could have quite a balanced powerplant.
I believe the Honda Dualnote concept may have already showcased this idea.
The current Toyota hybrid runs on the electric motor and uses the gas motor only when additional power is needed or when the batteries are low. This means is stop and go traffic you might not ever have the gas come on.
Honda's hybrids run on the gas motor and use the electic to boost performance.
Niether company uses the gas motor just to recharge the batteries. The two engines, when both operating, work together to provide the power to move the vehicle. As a result, the electic motor can be combined with a smaller gas engine for better mileage and emissions, or added onto the existing engine for a performance boost. In the second senario think of it like an electric supercharger.....
Very much looking forward to the next Supra rated at about 112hp. Doh!
As far as I know, the batteries are still not available as a replacement part and are estimated to cost between 4k-6kusd (www.cartalk.com). Most electric cars need a full battery replacement between 3-6years depending on usage.
On a hybrid the performance and mileage will degrade over the years without this replacement part. This will limit the life of the car and definitely reduce it's value to a second owner.
They are interesting but need to have replaceable batteries. A TDI engine instead of a gasoline engine would also help.
See the GM AUTOnomy.
O'WONDERWe're working on it.
Hopefully, this will produce genuine results and not only more advertisement and marketing hype.
Ciao
----
FB
the hybrid cars of today require you to change the batteries every 3 yrs and
it costs $6000-7000 to replace them and they are not as powerful now. But maybe
all this will change by 2012.
Where'd you get that information?? Honda is giving an 8-year 80K mile warranty on its Hybrid batteries. Their claim is replacement at around 10 years, and about $1000 at today's prices ($1K price told to me by a Honda dealer), which will probably come down as the first hybrids need their replacements.
The reason why diesels aren't popular in the US today is the fact that current Diesel #2 fuel is too full of sulphur compounds, which will quickly destroy the fuel delivery and exhaust emission controls found on European diesel-powered automobiles.
Since the EPA will require drastic reductions of such compounds in a few years, by then we could see the PD130 and PD150 engines found on European-market Golfs and Passats show up on the US market. Can you imagine a diesel-electric hybrid powertrain on a VW Golf getting fuel mileage that would make the diesel-powered VW Lupo seem like a fuel-guzzler in comparison? It could happen as early as 2006.
At the filling station, they pump out the broken shells, water and NaOH from your tank, before putting in new water and powerballs. The broken shells are recyclable. The NaOH is reacted with fresh H2 to produce water and NaH.
There needs to be some regulatory rules to make this process as clean as it promises to be. NaOH is nasty stuff, though no more toxic than gasoline. But overall, it's a cool idea.
WWJD for a Klondike Bar?
Too bad diesel died so many years ago in the US, but that's also beyond the point.
And 3L is great btw. :)
and wrote about it on his website.
Get one of em' 600cc sportbikes...
While maintaining pretty darn awesome fuel economy at around 30 - 40 MPG you get
one heck of ride.
Anything above 600cc is a tinsy bit too much...
First of all, I've had my Prius for about 8 months now -- and I love it. The car is a technological marvel. Not only does it get amazing mileage, it also puts out less emissions that just about any other car out there. For those not familiar with how a hybrid works, all of the car's energy originates with the car's 11.5 gallon gas tank. There is no plug. I repeat: there is no plug :)
There is however a battery pack under the rear seat of the car and accessible from the trunk. Under the hood there is a conventional 4 cylinder engine as well as a electrical motor/generator. Here's where it gets fun: in order to slow down, the generator spins backwards (!) slowing the car down and generating energy. When the need for strong breaking occurs, or at low speeds, the friction brakes kick in. The system is very refined, with only a small barely noticeable transition between regenerative breaking and friction breaking. The energy generated is then stored in the batteries.
Internal combustion engines are least efficient when they first start up and also produce the most pollutants at start up. The Prius uses its electric battery power to drive the motor forward and get the car moving. This dramatically reduces wear on the engine and lowers emissions and increases mileage. (Note: At speeds under 38 mph, you can run totally on electric power -- or stealth mode -- the car is completely silent! Very cool.) That's a real basic run down. For real engineers & car people -- note the lack of a planetary gear, an ignition system, etc. There's a lot going on in this car!
I alluded to the biggest misconception earlier -- there is no plug. All the energy is generated internally. Some other folks have mentioned fuel cells, I sat in on a briefing a few days ago with some top EPA/DOE folks, and they made it quite clear the technology isn't quite there yet. But the biggest problem is the hydrogen infrastructure that would have to be built. I sensed that they would personally favor government intervention to encourage this, but that would be extremely unlikely under the current administration.
One last comment -- there are two categories of hybrid cars -- full and mild. Both are good, but if Toyota is talking about mild hybrids, this story is a bit more of a yawn. Mild hybrid just means that the engine kicks off when the vehicle is stopped. Basically, the only additional battery needed is to spark the engine back to life. This is a good thing (imagine all those idling engines turned off and not emitting pollutants), but it is hardly a revolutionary step. The technology to do this has existed for years.
But please -- everyone go out and buy a hybrid -- I've driven them all, and they are all amazing. Of course, the Prius is my favorite, but the hybrid civic is nice and so is the Insight. And keep your eyes open for the new hybrid Ford Escape due in late 2003. Encourage all your "I'm an environmentalist but I drive an SUV" friends to put their money where their mouths are!
You found out wrong. The Prius battery is warranteed for 8 years or 100,000 miles. If the warranty covers it for that long, the actual lifetime is likely to be longer than that.
I've had mine for two years of not so gentle driving in the NYC metro area and occational forays into mountainous areas and nasty unmaintained dirt roads with no problems (34,000 miles so far) As for the full/mild, the differences are a bit more involved. There are "series" and "parallel" hybrids - the Prius can act as either and any shade of grey between a strict series and parallel. The Hondas are strictly "parallel" hybrids. From the marketing literature the Escape seems to be a "parallel-series and any shade of grey" version like the Prius - but they are talking about a paltry 40/29mpg :-( (I sort of wish they wish Toyota would just stick a little motor on the rear wheels of the Prius for low speed 4wd)
The "mild" hybrids are those that some monster SUV makers have been taking about which are basically integrated alternator/starters (i.e. very small parallel hybrid) that could in theory help out a little with propulsion if it wern't for the fact that the huge hotel loads of some of the proposed enhancements (i.e. 110v outlets for hair dryers and the like) would consume most of their energy budgets.
BTW, like any other car, driving style affects milage. I average 54mpg, my wife would kill me if I told you she only averages about 49mpg.
Not true. Toyota's batteries are warrentied for 8 years / 100,000 miles.
FUD!
The Toyota Prius has a 8 year/100,000mile warranty on the hybrid components of the Prius in the US (which include the battery). (A new battery pack currently costs about US$4950, although individual bad cells can be replaced and not just the entire pack... Plus, with higher production, the battery costs will come down. (Toyota has 2 hybrid cars, a minivan, and a bus in Japan at the moment.)) There's a Prius taxi in Vancouver (Canada) that has over 284,000 km. on his Prius (24/7 usage), and hasn't had any battery trouble or had to replace the battery...
Also, Honda has an 8 year/80,000mile warranty on the battery in the US on both the Insight and the Civic Hybrid.
-mrv
I own a 1992 Honda Civic VX. During the summer months I have been getting between 50 to 55 mpg. (Winter it will drop to 45-50 mpg.) My car is 10 years old. It uses gasoline. They can do better than what they are doing today.
In 1992 it had the second best gas mileage rating (52 mpg on the highway) of all the cars. Geo Metro which was a much smaller car had better mpg. The only difference between my Honda Civic VX and the other Honda Civics was the engine. Why is it they are not doing better?
A normal car engine has one source of power, the combustion engine. A hybrid has two, the combustion engine and the battery propulsion.
So even though a Toyota Echo's combustion engine is rated at much higher horsepower and torque than that of the Toyota Prius, when you factor in the battery it makes a big difference.
Plus, the torque from a combustion engine is only available when the engine is revving. A battery engine's full torque is available right from the start. That makes comparisons between battery engines and combustion engines even more difficult.
But, I find that most of a car's noise does not come from the engine in the first place. I'm sure a brand new car has all the seals in tack and is sound-tight but how silent will this car be after 50,000 miles? How much wind-noise is there now? How many spot welds will fail and cause the panels to flex in the future?
When I worked in the car industry (1991-2000) I know that car were designed to last 10 years/100,000 miles. Everything from engine wear to paint thickness was taken into account. The law also states that parts must be supplied for 10 years after the final production car leaves the line. Now, rust and mechanical failure normally end a car's life, so how long is the life expectancy on a car like this that has less engine wear?
This post contains benzene, nitrosamines, formaldehyde and hydrogen cyanide.
Just F.Y.I. -- the Escape's power train was developed through a joint Ford/Toyota venture and is based on the Prius engine, souped up a bit.
the VW... jetta? is a pretty nice diesel car. My friends have matching Wagon models... very comfy, and not that expensive.. between $20 and $25k I think.
damn, when did denis leary start posting on /. ? ;)
He didn't say anything about brown leather whale-skin interior or baby seal eyes for hubcaps.
Nope, no sig
Unless there was something very unusual about the '94-'95 diesel Passats, there's no way they could have gotten 70 MPG in US units. Perhaps 70 MPG in imperial gallons, which is ~58.3 MPG in US gallons, but that's still pretty high.
But the current VW TDIs, even the low-end versions we have in the U.S. because of our bad diesel, are great. I just purchased an '03 Jetta TDI, it's got plenty of pickup (that 90 HP means nothing against 155 ft/lbs of torque), and my mileage is climbing as I break it in. 46.2 mpg on the third tank; I'm expecting 48, and probably more like 49 on the next fillup.
U.S. enviro-wackos just have a vendetta against diesel, that's the biggest problem with diesel acceptance here. They'd rather get their way, all the way (fuel cells/hydrogen/other currently impractical tech), or nothing at all. Meanwhile, we could be cutting emissions and reducing foreign oil dependence in one fell swoop with Euro-style small diesel engines.
A hybrid generates its own electricity. You do not plug it in. Its efficiency comes from the fact that it makes for a more even distribution of the energy produced by burning gasoline.
Why are so many people not getting this point?!?
www.wavefront-av.com
Go over and visit TDIClub.com, we're good people.
The gelling problem is fixed as long as you buy your diesel from decent-volume stations. Winter diesel has anti-gelling additive mixed in before it gets to your car. The VW TDIs don't even have a way to plug the car in; some of the very anal types up in Calgary (or thereabouts) have retrofitted engine-block or coolant heaters because (a) they think it'll prolong the life of the engine and (b) they want to heat the interior faster. Some of the biodiesel devotees are working on fuel-tank heaters (since BD does gel, and anti-gelling additives for BD are virtually unavailable mass-market).
The reason the early '80s US passenger diesel days didn't last is because those GM diesels uniformly SUCKED. The memories of those (my grandparents bought a GM diesel that didn't make it home from the new car dealer), plus FUD from the enviro-wackos who want hydrogen/fuel-cells or nothing, are much of what has hurt US diesel acceptance to this day.
When you've been driving a '78 Chevy truck, it sure is! I measured gallons/mile instead of miles/gallon :)
There's a 68.71% chance you're right.
Even if this is correct (and some ppl seem to think it should be a little cheaper).. the price will go down a whole ton when ALL Toyotas ship with the batteries... That's a main part of the reason they are switching... cost
The Toyota Prius comes with an 8-year, 100,000 mile waranty on the battery...
That depends on how you do it. The Prius and Insight use their engines to drive the wheels, and the motors to assist that, but it doesn't have to be done that way.
If you have the engine turn a generator charging batteries, with drive motors for each wheel, you can leave out the clutch, transmission, starter, drivetrain, and differential. The engine can run at a constant speed (and thus be designed to be quiet at that speed), the batteries can be relatively small/lightweight (limited by how often you want to cycle them), and the car will have a decent amount of low-speed torque as well.
Would anyone like to comment on why the Prius and Insight were not designed this way?
I have confidence that hybrid (or biodiesel, fuel cell, etc) engines will be able to match the burly V-8's found in SUV's, trucks, and sports cars.
I'm not so convinced of this. Maybe biodiesel or fuel cell vehicles, but not hybrids. Hybrids rely on the fact that most vehicles, most of the time, use only a tiny fraction of their powerplant's capacity, with occasional bursts of high consumption.
My SUV, for example, often does not fit this model. I go camping quite a bit, and usually take a camp trailer, which weighs about 7000 pounds. Hauling that much weight up four to five thousand vertical feet requires long-term, continuously high horsepower. During these climbs I average about 6 miles per gallon and the in-dash fuel efficiency display often shows 3 mpg on the steepest bits.
Towing a boat up to the lakes is another example, although a less extreme one, since most small powerboats only weigh about a ton, including trailer. Sailboats are much heavier.
I don't think hybrid vehicles will ever make sense for such applications. I wouldn't expect to see hybrid powerplants in semi tractors, either.
Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
I recently bought a slightly used pickup truck. 2000 F-150.
I did a comparison with purchase price, gas prices, mileage, etc. between the F-150, and a new Honda hybrid.
The F-150 @ $12,000 and 20mpg does not start to cost more than the Honda @ $22,000 and 70 mpg until almost 200,000 miles.
And that is not including any maintenance costs. Battery replacement, etc.
Yes, the truck uses more gas. But the price differential is hard to ignore on a personal level.
Good point. They would probably sell a lot more hybrid rice rockets if they have a option for an electronic "120 dB amplified fart in a tin can" sound. Oh, and dark tinted windows, stupid lights, and all kinds of other crap hanging off them. And a CD hanging from the inside rear-view mirror.
Read the freaking article with a more critical eye. Geez.
Slashdot: "all their vehicles will be gas-electric hybrids by 2012"
Article: "plans to use gasoline-electric hybrid engines in all vehicles"
It sounds more like they're planning to offer a hybrid version of each model in their line. It doesn't indicate that they'll abandon internal combustion.
Yes, they are an improvement, but they're not the ideal--especially not current designs! A far more intelligent design is to have a completely electric drive while powering the motors with a small IC engine that drives a generator. This small engine can be engineered to run at an optimized constant RPM, making it very efficient. Batteries and a capacitor bank can supplement the gasoline generator and allow regenerative braking. Eventually, once fuel cells or some other energy storage technology have matured, just replace the small IC generator. That's the beauty of this design: the energy source is completely seperate from the drive. Modularity! And you gain all the advantages of a fully electric drive: greater low-end torque, electronic traction control, no transmission or drivetrain, and very hack-friendly! Dang.. if I had the resources, I'd build one myself (:
I understand that the batteries of a Toyota Prius have to be replaced after 6 or 7 years. Fine. I have no problem with that. However, does anybody know what happens to them? Can they be disposed of in any ecologically friendly way? My concern is that I buy this thing for the low emissions only to end up with hazardous waste.
Hybrids don't have to be slow econoboxes --> do you really think that toyota would announce this if they couldn't get some horsepower out of the hybrid setup? Honda has a 400 horsepower hybrid in development that still gets 42 miles to the gallon. take a look here.
The hybrids use the same engines as your old civic and similar to the geo's engine. The difference is that the Hybrid Civic doesn't drive like crap (like your old civic) and isn't unsafe (like the geo). It is as safe and performs just as well as a regular 4 cylinder civic.
Everyone wants lower gas mileage, but fewer people are willing to sacrafice so much performance and safety.
http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Newsroom/Aerosols /
please tell me where you see the greatest levels of pollution over the year?
Are you shocked at the polution coming from India, Russia, and Europe? I'm certainly not. Now - compare it to the USA.
That's right.. its a piss in the ocean in comparison.
What amazes me is that the Russians, who have been whining and crying about Kyoto... good Lord! Look at Russia during the winter months.
The rest of the world is so full of crap when they complain about us.. but then, hard facts and evidence don't really matter to hippies, tree-huggers, or liberals.
guns kill people like spoons make Rosie O'Donnell fat.
The article title is 'Toyota plans all gas-electric vehicles by 2012.'
The article goes on to say:
Toyota plans to use much of the technology it's developing for hybrids on fuel-cell vehicles, which the automaker expects will be mass-produced by 2010.
It sounds to me as if they will be abandoning the internal combustion engine.
Sounds like walong is way-SHORT.
E85 is much better for the environment.
By 2015 I would hope to see a combination of E85 Fuel and hybrid electric. E85 is a fuel blend of 100% renewable Ethanol and 15% gasoline. I have seen people claim that American car manufacturers are not paying attention to the "green" car. I say that isn't true. The Ford Taurus, in all it's grand ugliness has been a FFV vehicle for years. An FFV vehicle is a fuel flexible vehicle that can run on 100% gasoline, to any mix of ethonol up to 85%. There are currently more FFV vehicles on the market today than Hybrid Electric Vehicles.
Some include:
2.7L Dodge Stratus Sedan
2.7L Chrysler Sebring Sedan and Convertible
3.3L Dodge Cargo Minivan
3.3L Chrysler Voyager minivan
3.3L Dodge Caravan minivan
3.3L Chrysler Town & Country minivan
4.0L Explorer (4-door)
3.0L Taurus sedan and wagon
3.0L Supercab Ranger pickup 2WD
5.3L V-8 engine Chevy Silverado and GMC Sierra half-ton pickups 2WD & 4WD
5.3L Vortec-engine Suburban, Tahoe, Yukon and Yukon XLs
3.0L Selected B3000 pickups
4.0L Selected Mountaineers
2.2L Hombre pickup 2WD
2.2L Chevrolet S-10 pickup 2WD
2.2L Sonoma GMC pickup 2WD
E85 vehicles require no plug either. They also require no infrastructure upgrades like other solutions. Ethanol combustion produces friendly CO2 gas that can be used by plants, and water. Ethanol produces 110 octane, thus keeping your engine cleaner. The biggest myth about Ethanol, is that it requires corn to be efficient. Not true again, many industrial byproducts can be used to produce Ethanol. The byproducts of Ethanol production can be used in many other applications.
Now image all this:
US production of Ethanol - 85%
US production of Oil - takes care of 5% of the Gasoline requirement
10 % of Gasoline is still from foreign sources
Combined with Hybrid Electric technology we can create a vehicle that gets 50+ MPG, reduces pollutants by probably 90%, and changes NONE of our infrastructure requirements!
Why hasn't this technology come to the forefront... because for some reason, no one wants to see Ethanol succeed. The oil companies shot down Ethanol in the 80's and Archer Daniels Midland worked out a deal with the oil companies to save itself from bankruptcy due to bad management.
Visit e85fuel.com and see the truth.
I could see it was a "different" car - looked kinda like an Echo from the rear, but still better looking. When I saw it was a Prius, I was surprised. It actually didn't look that bad. Then the light turned green, and its acceleration was actually pretty good. I have seen regular automobiles move slower off the start. Of course, none of this is scientific or anything - just my observation. Still, if Toyota is going to all hybrids in the future, I might just know what truck to buy to replace my Ranger in the future.
Reason is the Path to God - Anon
id be glad to drive a hybrid during the week. gas mileage would be so much better for the long haul i take 5 days a week. then on the weekends, its back to the world of forced induction. :D
When all else fails, piss on it. At least you will feel better in some kind of way.
The difference is that the Hybrid Civic doesn't drive like crap (like your old civic)
Funny, 10 years a when I got the car it, I was impressed at how much more power it had than my old 1985 Ford Escort. I don't think performance was/is that bad. My wife drives a 2000 Toyota Echo and it does have more power than my Civic VX, but I don't think the difference is all that noticable. (Thanks for the info on the Hybrid Civic engine.)
The battery packs were about $1800 when these cars came out, they're priced at $1000 now, and they'll get much cheaper than that. One of the big advantages of the current hybrid designs is that they use common, commodity battery tachnology, unlike all-electric cars like the EV-1. How's this for commodity -- the Prius and Insight actually use regular, NiMH "D" flashlight cells. I'm not kidding. So not only will there be aftermarket suppliers, replacement packs may even be within reach of the home DIY'er.
Japan has succeeded in devouring delicious portions of our automobile and semiconductor markets by this proposed technique of theirs before: It's called "dumping". Flood the foreign market with your product, mass-produced like wildfire at home with the help of your government's subsidies, lowering the cost of production by sheer volume produced. Then, here in the U.S., we have a surplus of Japanese hybrid vehicles that need to be sold, so they go for thousands of $$$ less than American cars -- even American fuel cell or hybrid attempts!
It's not the consumer reports, it's Japanese corporate warfare. They've done it before and they'll do it again, very successfully. What we need is our own government to help out: to give tons of money to Ford and GM to develop these new technologies alongside our Japanese friends. If not, America will fall behind in yet another sector of industry.
My information is from the book: "Trading Places" by Clyde Prestowitz, Jr. It talks about the FIRST Japanese-car victory dance in the 1980's. Check it out.
hi, I like pancakes -.-- -.-- --..
The other day my mom mentioned to me that my cousin had bought a Honda Civic Hybrid for his new car, and I didn't think too much about it until I got stuck behind one on an on-ramp yesterday, and following today's Slashdot article (full of wrong information in both the article and comments) about Toyota's hybrid plans, I started hunting through Honda's site and Edmunds and came up with the following between the Civic Hybrid and the economically-minded HX (the HX is nicer than the DX and LX models, gets better mileage than the others, but has 10 less horsepower than the top of the line EX):
- The Hybrid costs $6000 more on average than the HX (getting the CVT transmission increases the cost on both by $1K).
- The Hybrid gets 85 HP, versus 117 on the HX (have fun turning off the A/C when going up a hill [/sarcasm]).
- Any engine-related parts on the Hybrid are a lot less popular and are going to cost a lot more in the case of repairs (Honda will give you 8 years/ 80,000 miles warranty on the battery pack, but after 3 years/ 36,000 you're paying for everything else yourself).
- The Hybrid gets 48/47 MPG, versus 36/44 in the HX.
Sure, you can get some money back from federal and state on the purchase, but it will be less than 1/3 of the inital cost difference, and you probably won't make back your money over the course of the life of the car on gas, and they haven't been around long enough to prove themselves on maintenance. Some of those issues will probably go away as they become more heavily produced, but I really don't see any advantage in the near future other than a warm fuzzy feeling that you're helping the environment, and I do see a lot of drawbacks. Did I miss anything big?
Is your browser retarded?
The real problem is that cars being sold in the US today are too big and heavy. Part of this is safety requirements, but it's also because carmakers keep moving their cars "upmarket." A Honda Civic of today is a much bigger, heavier car than an Accord was back in the 80s.
There were many cars 15-20 years ago that got great gas mileage, better than most cars today. And this is with engines that were much cruder. The main reason is weight. A late 70s Volkswagen Scirocco got around 40 MPG on the highway, yet still had decent performance. This is because it was small, aerodynamic, and weighed only 1950 LB. My '79 Rabbit Diesel weighed about the same, and got 50 MPG all around, with occasional spurts over 70 MPG under the right conditions. So it doesn't surprise me at all that the Insight gets 70 MPG. It's probably the lightest and aerodynamically sleekest car being sold in the US today, in addition to having a very efficient drivetrain. The thing is, all cars would get surpisingly goo mileage if they weren't so damned big and heavy. And unfortunately, the trend continues. The new Saturn ION weighs 400 LB more than the SL it replaces.
...unless they can make a hybrid with a sub-6-second 0-60 time. It's gotta be at least as fast as a Mustang GT before I'll consider it. As fast as a Corvette Z06 would be nicer still.
Fast forward many years: Stirling cycle engines are much more efficient (actually, Stirling cycle engines have always been very efficient - some say they have the best efficiency - but they typically had a low hp/big size ratio), smaller - overall just better. There is also a growing awareness of them - look around on the internet and you will find a bunch of sites detailing construction of simple Stirling cycle engines. There is also a company that creates Stirling cycle generators that run on propane.
Basically, what a Stirling cycle engine needs is a "hot" and and "cold" side - it works off of the temperature differential. Most of the test vehicles used a propane burner or something similar to raise the hot plate above ambient temperature. This worked, but was slow to start (because the burner had to fire up and bring the hot plate up to temperature before the engine could turn over). I wonder if maybe there is a different way....
What I am going to describe is something maybe those of you out there with mechanical experience and "gumption" can use to jump start a new project - a "free idea" invention, if you will. If you actually get this thing to work, post it on /. or somewhere, and give me some credit - that's all I ask. Or, perhaps this has already been tried - in that case, don't. I hope at least one person tries, though:
Basically, make your hot plate be a solar collection panel, heating up brine or oil or something, and the cold plate be a "multi-finned" panel on the bottom of the vehicle (think of it as a large heat sink). Put the Stirling engine between them, and use the power of the Sun! The engine could be directly connected to the back wheels, through a transmission, or you could have it drive a generator to run electric motors (with associated regen braking, etc via a capacitor/battery bank). At night, allow it to plug into the wall (or gas line), which drives a heater to keep the engine spinning at low-RPM, thus eliminating the "cold start" startup time.
Another idea, not using Stirling cycle engines, but that same energy differential (hot/cold plates with tubing circulating between) is to use some kind of phase change gas, at pressure - which could drive the engine, plus a compressor. The hot plate would heat the liquid, turn it into gas, which would drive the engine, circulate it through the cold plate, then through a compressor to turn it back into a liquid. I am thinking ammonia, freon, or propane as the working gas, though there may be other safer gasses out there which could be used. The key is the phase change (think of it like a refrigerator running backwards). The engine could then drive the wheels or a generator/motor set like above.
I hope this gets people's brains spinning - such vehicles would be nearly polution free, and would have few moving parts. I would also bet that a prototype could be built using off-the-shelf components, or junk.
Reason is the Path to God - Anon
"produces friendly CO2 gas"!?
mate, IF you believe that there is a green-house effect, then CO2 is a killer, not friendly. but if you don't believe it - everything is alright for you.
oh, it is one of the biggest goals of the kioto-protocol to LOWER the emissions of CO2 drastically. but if you are an american citizen, you don't have to care about that either...
sic luceat lux.
I like that your car has that ASST/CHRG indicator on your dashboard.
I expect we could save the equivalent of all the oil in the ANWR if all cars had instantaneous MPG indicators on the dashboard. I know for one I would be modifying how I drive to run that number UP, and I don't think I am alone.
If that saved just 1% the 20 MILLION barrels of oil per day (per here) that the U.S. burns...
Why has this not been done? Would it cost an extra $50 per car? I think that the gasoline savings would more than pay for that over the life of the vehicle.
Toyota currently doesn't sell a car in the US that does 0-60 times that low (the Supra was the last car with that type of performance), so they are not looking to sell to your car tastes. However, within 2 years there will be high performance hybrids that have good fuel economy and also good performance. Both Acura (Honda) and Nissan have prototype 400HP hybrid cars. The Acura DN-X concept car has 400Hp and gets 42 MPG
I own a Prius. It's an excellent car. There is a price premium on the car, but if they can minimize this, they'll definitely have a winner. My engine on this 4-cyl compact is a paltry 1.5 L engine, but oomph is way better than most low-cost 2.0 compacts I've come across. Mind you, if you spend similar cash to get a Jetta, you'll get more oomph. But like I said, they just need to get rid of some of the price premium. Also, the Prius isn't as loud many cars in this range. Furthermore, at low speeds when the gas engine shuts off, it's whisper quiet. It's so quiet that I have to extra careful sometimes at intersections - people can't hear a car coming and they just walk in front of the car. Morons - didn't their moms teach them to look before they cross? By the way, continuous variable transmission rules (if you like automatics). The acceleration is soooooo smoooooth.
The batteries on a Hybrid should last longer; they aren't deep-cycled as much as an EV. They "should" last 8 years, but they might not be too reliable after 5.
Kick the habit! No more Saudi Arabian oil!
If half the cars in the U.S. were hybrids, the U.S. would probably be a net oil exporter.
it's = "it is"; its = possessive. E.g., it's flapping its wings.
By the way, in the summer I have gotten over 800 km on 43 L of gas, with the air conditioning on, on the highway. With my stop and start jackrabbit driving I usually get in the range of 600 km in the city though.
For more info:
http://www.uscar.org/techno/svsp.htm
My amazing wife - Artist, Author, Philosopher - Laurie M
If automobiles went mostly hybrid, think of the reprucussions... We can pay $6/gallon on gasoline, but those who truly suffer will be those still driving regular cars. Suddenly, Sunday driving in your '57 Chevy starts costing you your entire social security check. Thank (those responsible) for IRA's!
TodayTM BillyJoelTM GoogleTMd for StitchTMes due to WindowsTM while RollerbladeTMing with an AppleTM and a PopsicleTM
For posting on /. is it a prerequisite to be well-versed in conspiracy theory? Big Oil this and Detroit Auto Thugs that ... whatever happened to semi-anarchic free market theory? If you build it (and build it well, and price it enticingly) they will buy ...
... [sigh] ... see you in mod hell
-1 Flamebait, -1 Troll
People really need to get past that penis car joke BS. It's just too obvious to even approach being witty, and it never was all that funny. I don't know anyone that seems like they had to buy a big car to make up for some lack of genital size, or insecurity in genital size. Funny thing is that, the guy I know with the nicest car has a hugest schlong too. And before someone comes ou with some kind of "oh so you've been checking schlong size?" He's "the friend with big schlong." Like you have the smart friend, the asshole friend, the in jail friend, the drinks 3 cases riend, and so on.
This is my sig. The post is over.
...are never going to see the light of day in a showroom, so the gas mileage benefit of such designs is nil. Which is damn shame, because some of those cars looked pretty cool.
On the other hand, GM is the most vocal about fuel cells. We can only hope that fuel cell use in homes and businesses will balloon in the next six or seven years, so that the possibility for hydrogen cars could exist by 2010. THEN I'll take a closer look at GM.
Visit me on the web at Permanent4.com.
The biggest problem with ethanol as a fuel is that you need to grow crops to produce it. If you are growing crops for ethanol, you aren't growing food. That may be OK here in North America, but how do you think the rest of the world would feel if our food exports dried up so we could keep driving?
As to overcompensating for something, if you're trying to imply that the only use for a sports car or a pickup truck is as a penis extension, then you've had some kind of sick self esteem issues pounded into your head at some point.
:p Yeah, you're cool Mr. speedy. You just nearly killed someone.
I can't say what it is like where you live, but around here I frequently see other guys in trucks and sports cars peel out past old women as fast as they possibly can, blaring their engine like hell. If that's not trying to make up for a small penis, I don't know what is. At least, that's what my girlfriend frequently states.
FWIW, I've *never* seen a woman try to frighten others on the road as they pass. They don't seem to need nearly as much attention on the road.
Remember "Bring 'em on"? *sigh
People (more specifically Americans -- only americans buy these things of course), wake up! These things are dreadfully slow and dynamically atrocious for no real gain in efficiency. You don't have to be a mechanical engineer who specializes in high efficiency energy sources [like me :)] to be able to realize this before dropping that 23k or whatever to buy one of these things -- just look at the specs.
So you are an american (I know you aren't european b/c europeans know about fuel-efficient cars and they laugh at hybrids). This means you probably dont care that hatchbacks (like the vw golf) are more versatile/practical (and more rigid, lighter, shorter despite more room, etc.) than sedans. So let's compare a Toyota Prius to a Jetta TDI.
The Prius gets 43/41 mpg (city/hw) (hw is lower because no regeneration).
The Jetta TDI gets 42/49. Many find that hybrids dont actually get nearly the mileage the manufacturers claim.
Okay so the jetta gets better gas mileage than the prius, but that must means the prius is faster, right?
The Prius does 0-60 in 14.1 sec.
The Jetta TDI does 0-60 in 11.0 sec.
But aren't diesels loud, smelly and dirty? 20 years ago they were. Now they have a silky purr, awesome throttle response (TDI stands for turbocharged w/ direct injection), far higher reliability than gas engines, and basically particulate free exhaust.
Well is there anything good at all about hybrids then? Maybe one day the regenerative braking will be able to offset the tradeoffs of having tons of batteries on board, but with current technology, hybrids are plain dumb.
This is all aside from the fundamental issues with trying to get linear behavior across a wide range of power input/output demands out of a system which constantly has to switch electric motor and ic engine + mechanical drivetrain subsystems -- ugly dynamics.
In fact, modern diesels are really starting to make gas engines look bad in terms of real-world performance. At normal rpms (say 1000 - 4000) diesels produce tremendously more torque than their peak output gasoline engine equivalents (in addition to twice the efficiency). This means that, around town at High tech diesels are taking over in europe but dont expect americans to get it. The never have. The only thing americans get is peak hp figures. That's why japanese cars sell so well here (no-torque engines that rev high due to displacement restrictions designed to shield markets from foreign cars) whereas they dont sell worth a damn in europe.
Small engines aren't more efficient -- they are less efficient b/c they have to rev higher for given output and revving higher incurs exponentiated thermal and volumetric efficiency losses. The only reason the same car with smaller engine tends to get better mpg is that its engine cant produce as much power in normal driving range. Larger engine with imposed output limitation would get better mpg.
So, dont fall for this hybrid crap. These manufacturers are going for the halo effect at your expense. I hate those giant 10mpg turd SUV always blocking sight, squeeling around turns, flipping, and ramming cars at roof height with incompatible bumpers as much as anyone, but we have to react intelligently. Just hang on as daimler-chrysler, bmw, audi, et al start trickling the new diesels over. You are going to be amazed.
Did I mention the TDI has zero CO emmissions?
Now if only I could reduce *my* tailpipe emissions. Maybe I should stop going to taco bell.
The MSRP on a 2003 Ford F-150 is around $20,000 USD.
The MSRP on a 2003 Honda Insight is about the same, $20,000 USD.
It's clear that the hybrid car at roughly the same price will start saving you money almost immediately.
Don't do today what you can put off until tomorrow. You'll most likely find a better way to do it!
"Toyota has announced that all their vehicles will be gas-electric hybrids by 2012. The plan is to eliminate the current $3,000 per vehicle additional cost for hybrid engines through mass production."
With the electric prices in California (San Diego) being very high, having an electric car would cost more than paying $1.80 a gallon for gas.
One 2br house (beach type, big box with rooms 700sqft), a wall gas heater, no dryer, just 110 volt apartment sized washer, 2 computers 1 monitor and a refrigerator costs me right around $120 a month in the winter for my electric bill. Heater can't run all night (not central heating). So I'm assuming for this electric car, it should at least 4x my electric bill every month!
My 1968 Mustang (302 V8 Holley 4bbl) is cheaper to put gas in! Hmmm, cheaper to keep her =]
I'm the parent post on the WSJ article, too.
Our other car is a 2001 Passat, and it comes with inst. MPG on the dash. The net effect, I've found isn't that big of a deal. People who floor it at every light will continue to do so, and the inst. MPG readout won't change their patterns.
Little things, like proper tire inflation can make a big diff. without changing driver behavior. A person who buys a Ford Expedition doesn't buy it for the MPG, and the extra display would only be depressing. Yes, it could change their driving patterns, but not unless they want it to. If such were the case, smaller cars would sell better.
For drivers to really change their patterns, gasoline has to cost more and stay there for a while. Last time it spiked over $2/gal here, everyone whined to DC about it and started looking for scapegoats. Nobody looked in the mirror.
But, yes, it's a good idea, and everyone at the Yahoo Insight board wonder why more cars don't come with one.
Here's one that might have more impact - miles to empty. I've seen them in the past, and it's pretty impressive.
People Grumble about why we are not 'there' yet with the journey to improved vehicular transport. Others say they will never drive the teeny windup toy of a alternative vehicle. The fact is, these hybrids are midpoints in the trip that help fund the researching manufacturer's efforts, and gives them valuable feedback on what the market needs. Buying one of these vehicles helps pay their research debt, and lets them know the market for that technology had at least one more customer at that price. While probably not great, there is a potential risk that too many people may purchase the product on grounds that are insubstantial and give the researcher/manufacturer a false read on the next step to take research and marketing wise. Remember that these are for profit enterprises that live paycheck to paycheck. If I as a rural resident with 3 inches of snow already chose to purchase their street car product on purely Idealistic grounds, and then found out later that their product did not meet my needs (I could not drive it half the year), I have helped them pay a research debt (good), but I have given them a bad direction in which to put their research and marketing efforts that they would need to provide me (the real reason they make their product) with a new product when I need it(bad). The risk that their next product is something that no one needs or wants is real, but hopefully low with proper research. The down side of the risk is that they will bankrupt themselves on a bad idea. I guess I wrote this to encourage consumers to use their buying power wisely to meet their needs, and thus encourage the manufacturers to supply you with what you need. How a vehicle operates often takes a back seat to other more immediate issues in the consumer?s life such as cost or performance. The fact that a better alternative is offered as a solution to some cases of need category is good. The fact that they will have a return on their research efforts, and a good idea of what to build next is better. SO, if these vehicles meet your driving needs Great! If they do not, buy what you need and don?t feel bad about it. Unnecessarily an extra vehicle that you cannot use will only create more waste.
Ever check to see how many "foreign" parts are in an "American" car? I buy my Japanese cars used, from the American owner, so a lowly American worker gets the cash. Never buy new, it is not cost effective.
Federal tax deduction of ~2000. Up until recently, there was some fuzziness in the law about what constituted a "clean fuel" car, and Prius owners could take a $4K tax credit, but that wasn't clear. Some Insight owners also took the credit. (Since the Prius can sometimes run on all electric, it was more "electric car" in the eyes of the law than the Insight.)
Interesting variation. In Oregon, there's a state tax credit of a couple grand for buying a hybrid, but hybrid owners must pay double the registration ("plate") fee that regular car owners. The legislation's fear was that since gas taxes pay for roads, the efficient hybrids weren't "paying their fair share" (actual words used). Nobody seriously considered giving SUV owners a discount, though.
www.biodiesel.org
And you can make your own in your kitchen.
I wouldn't say it's a good review. I would say it's just a typical new-owner's gush by some dude who (blinded by the hype) thinks he's cool cuz he got a car he thinks is green and technologically advanced. If you read articles by people that actually carefully consider the advantages and disadvantages of hybrids versus diesel engines in particular, you'll find that the "conclusions" of the ars article are actually quite anamolous. The article as basically vacuous -- pissed me off all the incorrect information and misconceptions being put forth as "product review"
Further, we have some real world data about the durability of a Prius battery. The Prius egroup carried an article about Yellow Cab in Vancouver BC, which has a Prius in taxi service. 200,000 km, many charge-discharge cycles, and all the power train components including the battery are still factory original.
Toyota claims to have bench tested the Prius battery pack to a simulated 150,000 miles.
That 3-year number sounds like it comes from the experience of pure electric vehicles. Batteries won't last long in those because deep discharge cycles gradually damage batteries. The Prius uses the gas engine as an onboard generator and can keep the discharge cycles much shallower, allowing the battery to last longer.
Oh, a minor correction to the sibling article: D cells are only the the Japanese model of the Prius. For the US model they were replaced by thinner prismatic cells.
It's not just about mileage. It's also about emissions.
A short average MPG readout would probably work better. By short I mean like the last 2 to 5 min, as opposed to instant like the parent post said.
The reason for that is that an instant MPG indicator like BMWs have, or that the trip computer in my Jeep displays fluctuate too much to get a good feal for how much gas you are using. You touch the gas and the MPG goes to 2 or 3 mpg, let up a bit and it hits 100 mpg! About the only time it gives a useful reading is if your are on the highway, its flat, and you have the cruise control set. Not real useful.
I've had the car a year and love it. I used to have a CRX (1986), and the "slot car" feel is almost exactly the same.
I have the CVT. The trans is cool in itself, but several cars, most recently a Saturn and an Audi, are selling with them. When you floor it, the tach climbs, then holds steady, but the car keeps accellerating. Very weird feel, but you get used to it.
The 5spd, OTOH is capable of much higher MPG ratings and the gas/electric combo is much more at the control of the driver - if you shift too early and floor it, you're using all electric and little gas. The 5spd also can switch into "lean burn" where at low draw, it burns at less than the standard 14:1 stoich. ratio. Generally, a 5spd worst mileage is better than a CVTs best (yeah, there are exceptions, but "all things being equal"). For example, 60 MPG is pretty good for the CVT (50 might be the low end), while the 5spd drivers expect 70 or so.
The 5spd is also more prone to "battery recalibrations" where the computer loses track of how much charge is left in the 144v battery pack. Suddenly, you have the next couple of miles without "assist" and you're in "Geo Metro" mode. The 5spds may be more prone to this because of the ability of the driver to draw off of it much more than a CVT.
What's this all mean? Well, as others have said, this isn't a money decision, since payback is a while. The same might be said for solar, wind power, etc. However, since the Insights were "early" tech, early adopters paid more than someone in the resale channel, and the resale value of most of the hybrids has been iffy. By getting one used, you let someone else take that risk. Additionally, because there were so few made by Honda, dealers who get them in trade-ins don't know what to price them at.
Either car would be a "geek" dream, and you have decide between the staggering mileage of the 5spd against the extra tech and "point and shoot" of the CVT. Oh, and the CVT is SULEV certified while the 5spd (lean burn and all) is only ULEV.
"What about the back seat?" Well, I've got a family, and whenever the kids go somewhere, we take the wagon. Whenever someone's going without the kids, it's the Honda. People never ask "what about the back seat?" about Corvette's, etc., and the fact is most families only need ONE car that can seat the Brady Bunch, not both of them.
Gotta go. email at Insightfill at yahoo dot com if you want, or just lurk the boards there.
Please note that the press release states that for each Toyota model, a version with a hybrid engine will be available.
They are not abandoning current engine technology for 2012, nor are they avoiding other engine technologies.
Umm... You're comparing a diesel (even if very clean for a diesel) vs. super ultra low emissions (SULEV) gas car? Gimme a break. Also, remember, the Prius actually sacrifices fuel economy to get a better emissions rating.
I betcha you've never actually driven a Prius. No, it doesn't have the same power as a Jetta, but it's better than you may think.
Plus, remember that my $20000 (not $23K) Prius does come with remote power locks, cruise, LCD screen, anti-lock brakes, etc. Some of these are on the base model Jetta TDI as well, but not all.
And it's got much more leg room than a Jetta. If you sit in the back of a Jetta you'd better hope the driver is quite short.
Anyways, the answer is not to attack the hybrid technology like you're doing. The answer isn't diesel either, for reasons that are obvious to some. The answer is to go after those 10 mpg TURD cars you were talking about before.
Hybrids do not require an external power source, and thus over the lifetime of a hybrid car the cost of electricity is exactly $0. Just like a non-hybrid car. ALL electricity used in a hybrid is generated from the gasoline.
Ethanol production from crops is also currently subsidized by the federal government. Hopefully, if they decide to incorporate ethanol into the nation fuel stocks as a replacement additive, there will be efficiences in volume, but you can bet that the farming states will hang on to subsidies for as long as they possibly can.
The EPA has released the Top Ten List of fuel economy winners for year 2003. The top slots are occupied by the Hybrid electrics (as expected) followed closely by Diesel cars. Diesel fuel injection systems are responsible for some European cars able to achieve remarkable fuel efficiencies of upto 75 mpg. They also have lower emissions and are quieter to drive. Europe's embrace of Diesel powered vehicles has caused their refiners to unload their excess gasoline across the Atlantic helping keep gasoline prices at our pumps steady even if crude oil prices keep rising. Increasing the popularity of Diesel powered passenger vehicles has always been known to be a part of the solution to meet todays national environmental and energy goals. However, the lineup of cars with diesel engine options for the North American buyer is still very limited. I wonder why . Here is a website dedicated to Turbo Direct Injection Diesel (TDI) cars that are known to have phenomenal fuel efficiency. You can read more about fuel efficient diesel applications in this Diesel Forum .
"Flamebait ?"
Guess some people don't know what smileys mean.
Ethanol combustion produces friendly CO2 gas
I guess California doesn't see C02 as being very friendly.
On July 22, California gov. Gray Davis signed a bill limiting C02 output of motor vehicles. And the federal government even claims C02 is killing the trees.
Oh well, back to the drawing board.
Hey, my mom drives a huge SUV, and she needs to.
We have 6 people in my family. All of my bothers and sister play soccer, and my mom is activly involved in soccer. When we go on 2 week trips to the mountains in colorado we have pleny of space for the whole family + 2 weeks of luggage + the dog.... cant do that in a car.
Quitters never win, Winners never quit, But those who never win and never quit are idiots.
With that caveat, here's a link to what's happening with trucks, which is much more interesting to me than with the little commuter urban cars. The dodge contractor is nifty idea, you can use it stationary as an advanced home or jobsite generator. As someone who curently runs PVsolar with genny backup, I like the idea of eliminating cost, ie, you own a truck because you live rural, trucks are necessary out here, so you can save on the cost of your backup genny and truck simultaneously, no need for separate purchases. And 20 kw is a no-joke sized genny.
It costs about $10,000 - $15,000 to replace the batteris if you get in an accident or they fail. Im sure hybrids will be mighty expensive to replace also assuring me that this wont catch on.
Choosing the lesser of two evils is a choice for evil.
I'm disappointed so many here are not up on their physics enough to see this as what it really is: a dead end.
Batteries would not just have to get better- they would have to get two orders of magnitude better to compete with the old ICE.
Calculate energy density of Gasoline verses batteries (in either volume or mass) and you will see that it just isn't going to happen.
I happen to be an environmentalist, but I also know what is real. Battery powered vehicles use MORE energy.
Safety is also a factor - no matter how you store energy it poses a risk. Some of the far out battery technologies are really superfund sites of the future. I always like it when someone brings up flywheel storage - Imagine a vehicle with enough energy stored in a spinning fly wheel to drive 100 miles. How close would you want to be if this flywheel fails? In an accident, I wouldn't want to be anywhere near the thing.
But of course! You cannot be a "true American" unless you are an ignorant programmible consumer wastefully spending money at the whim of marketing companies. These marketing campaigns are designed to help every citizen learn how to find true happiness and purpose in their life through the persuit of material posessions. That's the American way, and anything else would be downright silly.
Born and raised in this country, but I certianly don't hold much optimism for it's future. Religion was once refered to as "opium for the masses", but I do believe these masses have found a new source for their high.
If you're an environmentalist, you aren't buying a new car anyway. You're buying a high MPG used car. Donate the money you save to a cause.
There are no trails. There are no trees out here.
In the annual Consumer Reports auto issue, the reliability of dozens of model is tabulated graphically. Above-average reliability is signified with a red symbol, and below-average with a black symbol.
Just a glance at these tables is incredibly telling. The pages for Toyota and Honda models are a sea of red ink. The pages for Chrysler, GM, and Ford models are an expanse of overwhelmingly black ink.
And it's been that way ever since I started reading Consumer Reports (c. 1979). You often hear apologist Americans saying "well, Detroit had some quality problems back in the '80s, but now they have completely caught up to the Japanese automakers." Yeah, and I have some swampland in Kamchatka for sale.
-- "GPS," a non-apologist American
That that is is that that that that is not is not.
Of course, I'm the opposite of you, the lower that number is, most likely the more I'm enjoying my driving.
:)
I saw it hit 4mpg coming into the back straight at New Hampshire International Speedway last year. That works out to less than three minutes a gallon, on average!
I noticed you replied about a million times to your own posts and people at 0 or -1.
Let's though not ignore the fact, like you want to, that you bought a fucking used vehicle.
You are comparing the two almost as if you saved money... but it's only because it's used. Shit, I could say that I'm saving more because I don't actually have a car in my name so there!
But really kid, your Ford will cost more in maintenance! Do a google search, you will find that even though you have a warranty they won't cover anything. You will also find that like other Fords you may just have that nice engine of yours suddenly catch fire by itself.... Winstar?
Really... the F-150 costs more new than $22,000 so stop back-peddling and admit that you'll pay more for gas than a new (bybrid) car.
Get your Unix fortune now!
The Honda hybrids (and I'm sure the Toyota does too) have the instant MPG readout. But in addition to that they have MPG readouts for each trip counter. So it gives you an average mpg for each of your trip counters (you have 2 trip counters and one total mileage counter). Oddly enough there is no MPG readout for the total odometer reading although there are for the trips. I agree that the instant ones fluctuate way too much to be dynamic. I hardly ever look at mine.. The CHRG/ASST readout, oddly enough, is the one I look at the most.
I have a picture of the dashboard up.. http://zope.ods.org/jason/maryland/car9?display=
The instant MPG readout is in the form of a horizontal bar graph at the bottom of the dash.
Cheers,
-JD-
http://www.la-joliverie.com/microjoule.htm (French). One record I have seen has 10000 MPG. Sure it is a small, one-person vehicle, but if any of this technology were used in "regular" vehicles, I would expect significant increases in mileage.
And then there's the Tesla Pierce Arrow (some references on http://www.disclosure.org), which used no fuel...
Why not simplify the powerplant further than a Wankel and use a bladeless "Tesla" turbine? Very simple to manufacture, no critical seals, clean continuous combustion. See US patent 1,061,206, Tesla Engine Builders Assosciation, etc.
Here cums Shepd Shitflake,
Dressed in a cum-white gown,
Tap, tap, tappin' at your anushole,
To tell you he's in town.
Here comes Shepd Shitflake,
Soon you will hear him say,
"Cum out ev'ryone and play with me,
My dick needs ass today"
"If you want to stretch some asshole,
I'll help you cum one, two, three.
If you wanna take an ass ride,
The ride's on me."
Here cums Shepd Snowflake,
Look at him goin' down,
Bringing joy to ev'ry man and boy,
Shepd's cum to town.
I've heard the same thing about vegetable oil in diesel cars. What I want to know is if it will mix with regular diesel. IE, you have a big tank of vegetable oil at home that you use to top off every day or two, but what happens on long trips further than a tank away from your house? Can you just fill up at any gas station that has diesel then go back to the home brew once you get back or do you have to keep barrels of it in your trunk and hope you don't drive further than that?
we are building a religion
a limited edition
we are now accepting callers
for these pendant key chains
I like the roominess of SUVs. Right now I drive a compact car. In the future I'd like an SUV purely from a stand point of
- elevated seating
- roomier
- I can leave my bike at the back without folding down the rear seats.
But I have been holding on to it, b/c most of the SUVs are gas guzzlers. If there is a Hybrid SUV with enough horse power and affordable price tag I'd buy it.
Excellent points all around. Welcome to my friends list. :)
fuel cells ... "and they made it quite clear the technology isn't quite there yet."
But in the article, Toyota expects to be mass-producing fuel cells by 2010. Maybe they mean initially as a replacement of the battery in a hybrid.
I do drive an SUV, am not an environmentalist but still would buy a hybrid if it has V6-level torque and is not much more expensive (comes with a good stereo, sunroof, etcetera etcetera). Especially if the hybrid engine is more reliable and longer lasting due to the more even load on the block.
--- Hindsight is 20/20, but walking backwards is not the answer.
"but they are talking about a paltry 40/29mpg"
But I head it has the acceleration of the V6, which gets about 19/23 mpg in the non-hybrid escape/tribute (=same car)...
I do call a 50-75 percent improvement a lot!
--- Hindsight is 20/20, but walking backwards is not the answer.
oops.
--- Hindsight is 20/20, but walking backwards is not the answer.
Every nation in the world claims to be a net exporter of food, so appearently they won't mind too much if less US food went into that big storage dumpster in the ocean we must all have...
Seriously, Every country claims it grows plenty of food. I have no idea which do.
I would like to see cars powered by fuel cells, rather than those powered by hybrid engines. Those types of vehicles get much higher fuel efficiency, for about the same price.
--
Adobe's anti-counterfeiting softw
I have been told by my Honda dealer that a Hybrid Engine will be put in a CRV in the near future. Its not the bigest SUV, but, IMHO, only losers get big SUVs.
Wow I wish Sony used those batteries on the Vaio laptop instead of the onse that broke in mine after less than 50 cycles, of which not more than two dozen deep cycles.
Similar experience with everything else that I owned that had a rechargeable battery (UPS, cell phone, etc).
Batteries ususally are just not that good yet. I have big hopes for bidirectional fuel cells. Warranty can fix a lot of my worries though, if it explicitly includes the battery.
--- Hindsight is 20/20, but walking backwards is not the answer.
Wind energy. Woosh.
--- Hindsight is 20/20, but walking backwards is not the answer.
I don't understand why so many here are so quick to bash US auto manufacturers. All of them are working on alternative fuel cars as well. For example, no one seems to have mentioned the Ford Escape HEV, which will be available next year.
Check out: www.hybridford.com
FYI, --
"Although CO2 is released during ethanol production and combustion, it is recaptured as a nutrient to the crops that are used in its production. Unlike fossil fuel combustion, which unlocks carbon that has been stored for millions of years, use of ethanol results in low increases to the carbon cycle."
"The next generation of ethanol production facilities will include production from cellulose and biomass feedstocks. Earlier this year, there was a groundbreaking for a new ethanol production plant in Jennings, Louisiana which, when completed, will produce ethanol from rice hulls and bagasse. Three other plants are currently planned in California that will produce ethanol from rice straw. "
So it's better for you to take gasoline made from oil that is millions of years old, rather than from plant waste that was grown 1 year ago? BTW, it's Kyoto.
I'll tell you what.. maybe we should just walk everywhere.... or use electric cars. Who cares about the energy it takes to charge the cells right? Out of site, out of mind?
Ethanol is a logical next step. Idealism when it comes to fueling the world is great and all, but it gets us nowhere.
Oh, BTW.. It's a proven fact that America has the best controls for pollution and we have spent more money to save the environment and the world than any other country. So drop your flamebait and take some time to READ the facts before you comment.
not true about the high pollution - Mazda did not need to fit a catalytic converter to the RX-7 until 1982. every other engine had catalytic converters by 1978.
wankle rotary engines are more highly tunable for specific power output and specific fuel consumption and specific emissions. stationary generators would be a much better application for the engine; automotive is the worst application for it.
so i'm confused..... if ethonol is 110 octane..... why do you need 15% gas? why can't you run @ 100% ethanol? or is there a certian need for the lubrication properties of gas in the cylinder? or is it purely political? i'm checking e85fuel.com as i type...
moox. for a new generation.
I'm surprised that no one has pointed out yet the reason for why they're declaring this. No, its not because Toyota a tree-hugger company that wants to do good for the world, and they sure don't think that Americans really do want nothing but hybrids either.
The reality is that its all politics. Government organizations like the California Air Resources Board have been for a long time on their high horses handing down mandates to the manufacturers about what they have to produce.
The latest kick is Zero Emission Vehicles, vehicles that don't produce ANY emissions, including CO2. That means they can't burn anything, but have to run on electricity (nevermind the fact that said electricity may come from coal plants). Why CARB has a problem with CO2 is beyond me, other than the possibility that our cars' production of it might cause global warming, but that's another story.
But fully electric cars aren't practical. They haven't been and they don't appear as though they will be in the near future. This is why the manufacturers have been doing everything they can to convince CARB and the like that they'll take any mandate as long as ZEV's aren't part of it. They can (and already do) make vehicles that have almost no other emissions (NO2 CO etc.), and they can make cars that are increasingly fuel efficient, such as hybrids. But electrics just aren't realistic.
So the manufacturers are doing what they can to sway everyone. Make the public think that hybrids are cool, they're the wave of the future, they're the way to go. Get public opinion and maybe even governmental opinion heading down the path they want, and hey, even make themselves look good in the process.
That being said, I'm not saying Toyota has some evil hidden agenda. They're just trying to fight the BS really. I just don't seem them going to full hybrids. Then again, a hybrid can be a loose term. As long as its got some semblance of electric propulsion, its a hybrid, right?
--
"Karma can only be portioned out by the cosmos." - Homer Simpson [1F10]
2ms,
I think you're forgetting a big problem with #2 Diesel fuel sold in the USA: a large amount of sulfur compounds in the fuel.
With sulfur compound levels as high as 2,000 parts per million, these compounds will act akin to sulfuric acid (anyone who's taken high school chemistry knows how nasty sulfuric acid can be) and quickly destroy the modern fuel delivery systems and exhaust emission controls found on European market diesel cars, where in Europe sulfur compound levels max out around 450-500 parts million.
In a few years the EPA will mandate that sulfur compounds be no more than 80 parts per million; once that happens we'll see a deluge of truly modern diesel-powered cars arrive in the US market. The Volkswagen PD130 and PD150 engines are very powerful, yet offer very high fuel efficiency; with the new cleaner diesel fuel and proper exhaust emission controls we could see a diesel car get 50+ mpg yet have excellent acceleration and even meet at minimum the ULEV emissions standard (equivalent to Euro 2004 standard).
Now imagine matching a modern diesel engine into a diesel-electric hybrid drivetrain; a Toyota Prius with a small turbodiesel engine instead of a gasoline engine could be capable of nearly 75 miles per US gallon fuel efficiency! With a 11.9 gallon gas tank a one way trip from Portland, OR to Sacramento, CA might be within reach.
This is a very momentous step towards hybrid vehicles. I also suppose that this is also defining where we are going exactly with hybrid vehicles too. Its looking like the car companies are going to the gas/electric as opposed to hydrogen and other methods, or maybe someday it will evolve into different kinds of hybrid vehicles.
We'll have to see if Toyota stays true to this oath. It will be awesome if they do, other manufacturers will surely follow.
---
Mike
I'm going to kick the next person that I see with their karma rating in their sig.
You should ask someone working in the field
for a definite answer, but out of memory
the load on the road rises with the fourth
power of weight per axle.
I remember this from the discussions where the
Swiss tried to keep the heavy trucks out of
their country.
Peter
Yes, Tesla turbines look cool. How come we don't see more of them in real world applications?
Stick Men
Yes, I'm aware that our fuels in general have much higher sulfur content than they do in Europe. However, from what I read here it seems as if people think that it's only the diesel fuel with this problem. US gasoline has the same problem. That's why, for example, BMW used iron block gas engines here for years while the same cars had different, aluminum block engines in Europe. So, the fact that US diesel sucks doesn't make gas engines a better choice for over here, because US gas has the same problem!
By the way, 75mpg from a hybrid one day might be good, but you can buy a VW Lupo 3L TDI that gets 78.5mpg and is faster than the Insight right now (except in the US of course). When you look at the facts, there's simply no justification for hybrids right now -- they are slower, get worse fuel economy, are more expensive and have worse driveabililty than modern diesels. The only reason Honda and Toyota make them is for the halo effect.
Misconceptions... Whoa! These treads are loaded with them.
http://john1701a.com is my website. I've used it to very thoroughly document my Prius experiences over the last 2 years. To clear up the confusion here, you may want to check it out. I'm at 41,725 miles as of today. Driving every single mile of that was great!
I love pushing the accelerator down to shock disbelievers (pun intended). The burst speed you can get from motor is really impressive.
"Stealth" (electric-only driving without the engine running up to 42 MPH) is beyond description, you have to experience it first-hand.
You never have to worry about the well-being of the battery-pack either. The hybrid system carefully protects it from ever deep discharging. (That's quite the opposite of electric-only vehicles!) So the expected +150,000 mile battery-pack life really is realistic. (In fact, a Prius cab up in Vancouver has already racked up 160,000 miles and is still going strong!)
The fact that Prius can create electricity on-the-fly is a key feature that isn't well known. You typically don't even to draw from the battery-pack. The engine is capable of generating so much electricity that you can actually top-off the battery-pack while driving *up* hill and also using the motor for additional torque.
45.0 MPG is my calculated lifetime performance. Living in Minnesota, that's extremely impressive. The very cold weather hurts MPG a lot. It helps to reduce our dependence on oil.
SULEV is what I value the most. Driving around a vehicle that clean *today* gives me a wonderful feeling. It helps reduce the ever-growing smog problem we have.
Visit my website for additional information, you won't be disappointed.
JOHN
http://john1701a.com
> The VW TDIs don't even have a way to plug the car in
What you need is a magnetic engine block heater. Slap it on under the oil pan, remember to take it off before driving away in the morning!!!
$30 or so from the JC Whitney catalog.
On the other hand, the TCP camp also has a phrase for OSI people.
There are lots of phrases. My favorite is `nitwit' -- and the rationale
is the Internet philosophy has always been you have extremely bright,
non-partisan researchers look at a topic, do world-class research, do
several competing implementations, have a bake-off, determine what works
best, write it down and make that the standard.
The OSI view is entirely opposite. You take written contributions
from a much larger community, you put the contributions in a room of
committee people with, quite honestly, vast political differences and all
with their own political axes to grind, and four years later you get
something out, usually without it ever having been implemented once.
So the Internet perspective is implement it, make it work well,
then write it down, whereas the OSI perspective is to agree on it, write
it down, circulate it a lot and now we'll see if anyone can implement it
after it's an international standard and every vendor in the world is
committed to it. One of those processes is backwards, and I don't think
it takes a Lucasian professor of physics at Oxford to figure out which.
-- Marshall Rose, "The Pied Piper of OSI"
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