I hate that default response.
WINE doesn't work MOST of the time.
I don't care if you can play Doom or some other crappy game with it. Until I can pop in any old windows-based application and it runs without any (or very few) problems, it's useless for me and I'd suspect most businesses.
Not bashing on the WINE project--I'm sure it's a hell of a lot of work figuring out Microsoft bloat and all sorts of bastardized APIs, but until it can emulate almost every windows-based app out there, businesses won't be able to 'just load WINE' and do it.
As far as I know, IIS and Apache don't quite support TLS yet (although it's in-progress) which means every SSL-enabled website would have to be on it's own unique IP/port...making the IP 'crunch' even more of an issue.
But in any case, why blame Outlook? Firefox is the one creating the clipboard items, Outlook is just attempting to render them in a sensible fashion. It doesn't sound to be like the pasting application is at fault here.
Fixed it for you:
But in any case, why blame Firefox? Outlook is the one interpreting the clipboard items in a fucked up manner. Firefox is just copying them in a sensible fashion. It doesn't sound to be like the copying application is at fault here.
You can't wait to pay for an XP license that you won't use, when you can buy an eeePC with Linux pre-installed? Talk about Microsoft lover!
Hey--wouldn't that cover all the so-called patent infringements that linux allegedly has? You already have an XP license sitting around that covers you. Hell--I must have 5 license stickers sitting around here somewhere...
Why would an entity pay for something they are disinterested in.
I wouldn't pay for barbies. Not interested. Nor would I pay for digg. Hate it.
But I would pay for a new laptop--because I'm an interested entity.
So the only people I could see wanting to pay for a study about the effects of cell phone radiation/tumors would be the people who claim it causes tumors (biased wackos!) or the people who claim it doesn't cause tumors (biased telcos!)
If only he could somehow make his beard into a boat-like shape, flip it over, and then huddle pairs of animals underneath... Norris Ark (upside down) would save all the animals...
The fact of the matter is, you could yank many of these things out of context or improperly interpret them through the language barrier. People have been doing it to Christianity and Judaism for years.
But you must agree that 40 people is NOT any experience
I disagree. When do you 'magically' get experience. Is it when you've hit 42 times? Maybe 50. How about a hundred?
It's experience. It may not be a lot by some people's standards, but it's more than a lot of people's experience.
I'll agree that all software sucks. Some just sucks less. IMO, linux is rock-solid and perfect for servers and desktops for advanced users. Windows is great for the users who want exactly the same crappy experience they have everywhere else--because they are used to it.
I'll be honest--I have no clue what mac excels at other than 'image'. I last used a mac for day-to-day stuff back in 93. It was an LC II. I've played around a bit on newer macs, and watched a few demos on apple.com--so I'm not exactly qualified to give an opinion in that area.
How does the latter support the former?
I am liberal, and I don't give a crap about the democrat party. (I'm liberal in the sense of supporting individual freedoms and opposing authoritarianism.)
Yeah--I should be careful with that one, I have the bad habit of treating the words liberal and democrat as equal when they really aren't. Replace liberal with democrat in that previous post and you'll have what I should have said.
And you still managed to tell her "reboot" without ever even touching her machine or doing anything technical?
You deserve so much gratitude! You're not an ass at all! She should name her first born after you.
Hmm...so I fixed a problem she was having and she was unable to resolve it herself for free. No...she shouldn't say thanks. That would be using good manners and being polite. But to you I guess that's called being an ass.
So, a doctor has to go through many phone calls to get you to agree to work with their busy schedule, then all you do is say "reboot", and you expect them to be grateful?
Or, flip it around. A doctor has a busy schedule and expects me to move MY schedule around for her. I'm sorry--I'm contracted 9-5 Monday through Friday. I really don't feel like being treated like the scum of the earth after I hang around 2.5 hours after I'm supposed to be home with my family just so your issue gets solved.
And of course, your clearly hostile "liberals are all idiot" attitude means she sould, I guess, have given you your own weight in gold for barely agreeing to do your job.
Yeah--another generalization I have. Most liberals are uninformed idiots. The democrat party was pretty cool...50 years ago. Now it's gone down the toilet.
As for my weight in gold, no. But a simple thank you would have sufficed for going above and beyond to solve her issue. I don't get paid overtime, and the company didn't require me to be there. I had no motivation for being there except to help her--and she knew it. I told her over the phone that since she was only a consultant to the company we weren't required to support her. I also told her that our hours are 9-5. She wouldn't budge. She obviously had more important things to do--like listening to those air america recordings.
I'm just saying that since you and Mac users probably don't see eye-to-eye to begin with,
Windows users and I don't see eye to eye. Mac users and I don't see eye to eye. OS/2 users and I don't see eye to eye. Hell--even a few linux users and I don't see eye to eye. That's not where the problem comes in.
On a projector that sees maybe 8 windows laptops per day without any issues, when this mac user runs into a problem, it's immediately my fault that I don't have the projector setup right. When the desktop layout is confusing, it's my fault. Not the fault of her OS. Not the fault of her being uneducated about how the laptop/OS works. It's just my fault. And damnit, why haven't I fixed it already. She called me and left a message a week ago saying "Your projector doesn't work. *click*"
just maybe, your perception about their attitudes probably isn't exactly accurate.
I beg to differ. A few weeks later I was discussing that incident with one of the people who was in the conference room waiting for the presentation. He said "she's a bitch to everyone". I believe my perception of the attitudes of the mac users I've run into is extremely accurate. I do NOT however believe it is representative of all mac users.
Also, if you are in tech support, it IS your job after all to make stuff work
Fortunately the company that contracted with us doesn't support macs, or even allow outside computers on their network. It was a one-time issue they needed for a special presentation. And of course, when it was said and done, it wasn't my problem. It was her piece of hardware. You are right though--it is my job to make sure stuff works--and the machines that are owned by the company do work fairly well.
I'd agree, that most Mac users don't know as much about technology solutions as someone like yourself, but there really is no reason for them to have to in the first place. They have a tool, they expect it to work.
Yes, but when I'm hammering in a nail and I smash my thumb, I don't blame the manufacturer of the nail, the wood, or the hammer. I scream #*$&@ at the top of my lungs and then think "Man I'm an idiot".
This expectation and the fundamental differences in the expectations from Windows users, are what continue to drive the Mac vs. PC debate.
Actually, that is pretty insightful. Mac users expect their shit to work and are floored when it doesn't work (although it appears to not work about as much as a windows PC, there are just less of them). Windows PC users expect shit to crash and are amazed when it works.
O believers, take not Jews and Christians as friends; they are friends of each other. Those of you who make them his friends is one of them. - 5:54
Believers! Make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Let them find harshness in you. Ye who believe! Murder those of the disbelievers - 9:123
Translated from the koran. Citation needed is just a way of saying you're too lazy to look it up, and you're hoping the guy who posted is too lazy to look it up too--so you think you win be default.
No, Windows users just got all pissed off when I told them that there would be no more help for them, as I refused to do Windows any more, and that if they didn't want to switch to something better, they have only themselves to blame for f*cking themselves over.
I'm not saying in any way that their support should be cut off, or that they should switch to something "better". I am simply describing an attitude when I show up to fix *their* problem. And that attitude is that their stuff is perfect, it must be my stuff that isn't working.
Windows users have this attitude that it's their god-given right to expect that people support Microsoft's shit.
I've run into that too from the Windows camp--but the ratio is much smaller than from the mac side. (Once again, in my own perceived opinion)
To bad for them that the concept of "god-given right" is lost on atheists.
I always find it funny when people who are self-proclaimed atheists use the phrase "god damnit", or "god help us". I laugh and they look at me funny. It's no more absurd than me saying "the flying spaghetti monster" doesn't exist and then "pasta damnit" when I stub my toe.
More likely, the attitude of 39/40 Mac users is imagined by your own insecurities.
What insecurity? That I've been in IT for 20 years and know how to deal with issues--yet mac users always have an air of elitism? I'm not stranger to elitism--I run linux on all my machines at home. I believe it to be a great OS. I just don't believe it's unfailable--and I don't blame the issues I have with linux on other people. I recognize that when a problem comes up it could be my OS, my hardware, or my own lack of understanding in a particular area.
My only question is who really has the "better than you" attitude?
I don't believe I'm better than another person or group of people simply based on my use or non-use of a product--weather it's Mac vs Windows vs Linux, Pepsi vs Coke, or Coffee vs Tea. But when a particular group is constantly blaming everything and everyone other than themselves--I think the problem lies in that group.
Several of my major clients are in the medical field. Every day I deal with doctors who are much more versed in medicine than I am. I deal with other people in the medical industry who are versed in their own specialities. I don't think that I'm better than a doctor because I know IT. And I don't think the doctor is better than me because he knows medicine. Like I said in another comment, I reserve judgement to a person's character.
On the other hand, if someone comes up to me and says "Your network is broken--it doesn't work. You need to fix your shit." And they do so without any technical knowledge, plus they treat me like dirt and insist that the problem is in no way their macintosh--when hundreds of other people are having no problem...well...that says a lot about them.
Reverse the scenario. Lets say I go to a doctor because I injured me knee playing soccer. The doctor tells me to give my knee a rest and take a few weeks off from playing. What if I turn around and tell the doctor that he's full of crap, that his x-ray machine isn't working right, that he doesn't know how to use it, etc...and that I tell him the real reason I have knee pain is because I'm having a heart attack and I need to be prescribed Nitro. In that case, I'd be the pretentious asshole.
I suppose this is the core issue. The mac users I've run into all believe the issues they are having are due to something I fucked up. It could never be their machine because they drink the Apple Marketing Kool-Aide. They completely ignore the fact that they no nothing about computers, and believe they are infallible.
Do you get pleasure from being technically smarter than a consumer using an Apple product?
No, my pleasure comes from taking home a paycheck every few weeks, feeding my family, and keeping them happy. That and the occasional game of Halo. The only thing I get from a consumer using an Apple product is a much more troubling tech support call since the user is unhelpful, uninformed, and is annoyed because the problem is automatically all my fault.
From my point of view, all OS X users are computer programmers. From your point of view, they are computer illiterates... You say tomato?
Sorry--I misunderstood what you were getting at. You are correct. I was not trying to say that all of group x were y (all mac users were elitists), just that my run-in with mac users were almost entirely bad. It's a very small subset. Lies, damn lies, and statistics and what-not.
I love the fact that Apple is using BSD at the core of their OS. And I'm glad BSD users can get away from the politics, but I don't see how my experience is circumstantial.
To me it's more like direct evidence. First-hand testimony. I have interacted with a handful of mac users. I have witnessed their behavior. I have watched the "OS of the gods" crash, reboot, and lock up.
Now it would be ridiculous to say that every last mac user is an idiot, pretentious, or a down-right asshole based off that, but based off my experiences it wouldn't be wrong to be on guard the next time someone tells me my equipment isn't working and their mac is perfect.
Seriously--if you run into 40 pitbulls and 39 of them immediately attack you without provocation and tear off an appendage, wouldn't you start being weary of pitbulls?
Most of the Apple users I have to deal with in my line of work are educators, and for the most part, they're absolute sweethearts. Every Mac user in the medical profession, however, has been similar to what you described.
I wonder why?
Two reasons:
1. Using a platform that is marketed as being better than everything else, and if you use it, you are somehow more enlightened and better than everyone else.
2. The position of being a doctor is a somewhat elite position. It takes lots of schooling, education and study. Some people when they come out believe that makes them better than everyone else. (My IT knowledge doesn't make me better than anyone. It's simply a skill I can use to help my fellow humans. It's really all about your character.)
Sounds to me like you were both being standoffish and need an attitude adjustment. Was she wrong to act like a snot, yes, but you made her do all of the troubleshooting work which is your job to do.
I don't know where you got the idea that I made her do all the troubleshooting work. I simply asked her to reproduce the issue in front of me. I don't know how many times I've run into an issue that works perfectly for me, but when the user performs the action they do it slightly different causing the problem.
Her problem was reproducible. If you booted the mac, and then plugged in the DVI to VGA converter it crashed almost every time. If you booted with it plugged in, it worked without fail.
If you lost the IT prima donna attitude and took the time to show your users how to do stuff and explain what is happening along the way, you'd probably meet a lot less resistance.
Once again, how am I supposed to show her how to fix her problem if I'm not even sure what the problem is in the first place. All she would tell me over the phone was that "it didn't work". No further detail. So I went on-site to have her show me exactly wasn't working. I can't magically fix something I don't know about. But I can change my troubleshooting tactic so I can figure out what the issue is. If she's standoffish, uninformed, or just plain can't explain it, I can have her show me exactly what happens and then either witness the issue first-hand or ask her what she thought should have happened.
After doing this job for 20 years, I've only had two complaints. One time was when I lost my patience with a complete and total asshole. I told him to fuck off and I hung up the phone. After describing the incident to my boss (rather than wait for the customer to call my boss) he agreed with me, listened to the customer side, listened to the recorded call and finally told the customer he was no longer welcome and told him he had 60 days to move his hosting, internet access, and pick up his PCs that were waiting to be repaired.
The other customer was out of the blue. I was nice as pie to her and the issue was resolved. Then a few weeks later she called up and said she didn't want me coming out anymore to fix her computers. No explanation, no reasons, just no coming back. I wish I knew what the hell it was all about.
Or it might be that Mac users, that need the support are assholes as opposed to Windows users from which support is needed by broader selection of users?
But wouldn't that be based on the premise that mac-assholes need support and nice mac users don't? I would assume they all run into issues equally. The OS doesn't pick when to have an error based on the assholiness of the user.
The only thing I see different between the two platforms is the sample pool. The ratio I run into is somewhere around 100 PCs for every 1 mac.
it is insane to judge entire nations by few morons that belongs to it. Same thing with your poor "experience" that makes me laugh.
You are correct. I should have phrased that better. My favorite quote is that there are three kinds of lies: Lies, damn lies, and statistics.
It could simply be a regional thing for example. Most of the mac users have lived in 25 miles radius of my town. And there are a lot of assholes here. I'm one of them. It's an economically depressed area and a lot of people are that way. But still, I've fixed hundreds more PCs than macs and almost every one of them was grateful and understood that sometimes PCs crash, and sometimes they don't know something about the way PCs work.
Reminds me of the time I saw the neighbour's daughter stalled in traffic. She had "borrowed" the car without asking, and had to get it home before her mother found out, but it was stalled. Turns out she was using the choke to hold her purse. The hardest part was to get her to NOT keep on pumping the gas pedal when trying to staft a flooded engine.
Was she thankful for your help?
Did she treat you like it was all your fault?
If she berated you, your equipment, and treated you like it was all your fault then she would be just like 39 of the 40 mac users I've run into.
Interesting. I see the exact same thing all the time from coworkers who use Windows. The Mac users actually seem to understand monitor-spanning versus mirroring. The fact that there are incompetent people on different platforms doesn't really prove anything.
The only differences between the mac user and a windows user having that problem is that the windows user is thankful that I fixed and the windows user doesn't immediately start off with the idea that his hardware/software platform was designed by gods and therefore it's my fault, the projectors fault, and they are better than everyone else because they got a mac.
I don't know why the Mac hating crowd needs to resort to 6+ year old marketing slogans, if there's really that many valid reasons to flame us Mac fans:-)
No, there are plenty of reasons to flame Mac fans. My experience may not be typical, and I'm certainly not directing it at you specifically, but here goes...
I have met or interacted with roughly 40 mac users in my last two years of work. I provide contracted IT services to companies. Each and every single one of those 40 mac users were pretentious twats. Every single one of them acted like the whole problem was my fault--even when they were coming to me because their mac was having issues.
My personal favorite example was a doctor working as a contractor for a company I was contracted to. She had apparently been having no end of issues getting her mac hooked up to the projector.
So after exchanging a bunch of phone calls and finally agreeing that there was no other possible time she could do it save for 7:30 at night on one reoccurring day each month, I finally gave in and said I would help her.
She whipped out her macbook and folded her arms...waiting. So I asked her to show me what she did exactly so I could witness the problem. She indignantly sighed as if I was asking too much and booted the thing up. Once it was fired up, she opened up whatever the hell the mac equivalent of powerpoint was and folded her arms again, and once again glared at me. I waited. She finally sighed again and pulled out the DVI to VGA adapter from her laptop bag and plugged it in. The mac immediately froze. The projector hadn't been plugged in, only the adapter. She threw her hands up in the air and whined "Seeee!!!" at me. "Uh, it crashed. Reboot it."
"It's not supposed to do that!!!". "Nope, probably not. You'll have to call Apple about it--but for now, reboot it and we'll try again."
This time it came up and didn't crash. So we plugged in the projector and everything worked like a charm...
Right up until the point where she was completely baffled by her desktop being EXPANDED onto the projector rather than duplicated onto the projector.
She kept dragging things off the laptop screen onto the projector. This had her totally fucking confused for 5 minutes. Several times I tried to explain what was going on, but she would cut me off and say "See--it's disappearing. Why is it on the projector and not on my laptop. It's broken."
Idiot. So after 10 minutes she finally listened to what I was explaining and figured out that her desktop was extended. (All of this while huffing about how my projector was messed up and not working correctly--because is sure as shit couldn't be her macbook. It was developed by a deity after all, and they make no mistakes.)
Next thing I know, she's firing up iTunes...and for the finale I thought "I'll bet she's *the* air america listener".
Sure enough. Hundreds of air america broadcasts/podcasts/whatever.
...which of course the playing of caused the laptop to crash. Another reboot, and an explanation that it's not the projector's fault--especially seeing as it was simply a VGA projector without audio, and she was ready to present.
...and all of this without me having to touch the macbook, do anything technical, or provide any advice beyond 'reboot'.
Oh yeah, and when I said "It looks like you're all set", there was no "Thanks" or "Awesome" or really any positive acknowledgment other than "It's about time".
And yes, all 39 other mac users displayed the same total lack of technical knowledge and the same "I'm better than you attitude" when really they were just so fucking stupid I'm surprised they didn't die half way through the troubleshooting process because they didn't remember to breathe.
I suppose I should amend this slightly. I actually do know 2 mac users that are intelligent. My friends parents. They bought it because o
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Wine will do that
I hate that default response.
WINE doesn't work MOST of the time.
I don't care if you can play Doom or some other crappy game with it. Until I can pop in any old windows-based application and it runs without any (or very few) problems, it's useless for me and I'd suspect most businesses.
Not bashing on the WINE project--I'm sure it's a hell of a lot of work figuring out Microsoft bloat and all sorts of bastardized APIs, but until it can emulate almost every windows-based app out there, businesses won't be able to 'just load WINE' and do it.
It's beyond me why this hasn't happened already.
As far as I know, IIS and Apache don't quite support TLS yet (although it's in-progress) which means every SSL-enabled website would have to be on it's own unique IP/port...making the IP 'crunch' even more of an issue.
But in any case, why blame Outlook? Firefox is the one creating the clipboard items, Outlook is just attempting to render them in a sensible fashion. It doesn't sound to be like the pasting application is at fault here.
Fixed it for you:
But in any case, why blame Firefox? Outlook is the one interpreting the clipboard items in a fucked up manner. Firefox is just copying them in a sensible fashion. It doesn't sound to be like the copying application is at fault here.
You can't wait to pay for an XP license that you won't use, when you can buy an eeePC with Linux pre-installed? Talk about Microsoft lover!
Hey--wouldn't that cover all the so-called patent infringements that linux allegedly has? You already have an XP license sitting around that covers you. Hell--I must have 5 license stickers sitting around here somewhere...
if it was paid for by a disinterested entity.
Why would an entity pay for something they are disinterested in.
I wouldn't pay for barbies. Not interested. Nor would I pay for digg. Hate it.
But I would pay for a new laptop--because I'm an interested entity.
So the only people I could see wanting to pay for a study about the effects of cell phone radiation/tumors would be the people who claim it causes tumors (biased wackos!) or the people who claim it doesn't cause tumors (biased telcos!)
Except Chuck Norris.. his beard would deflect it.
If only he could somehow make his beard into a boat-like shape, flip it over, and then huddle pairs of animals underneath... Norris Ark (upside down) would save all the animals...
The fact of the matter is, you could yank many of these things out of context or improperly interpret them through the language barrier. People have been doing it to Christianity and Judaism for years.
True. I stand corrected.
But you must agree that 40 people is NOT any experience
I disagree. When do you 'magically' get experience. Is it when you've hit 42 times? Maybe 50. How about a hundred?
It's experience. It may not be a lot by some people's standards, but it's more than a lot of people's experience.
I'll agree that all software sucks. Some just sucks less. IMO, linux is rock-solid and perfect for servers and desktops for advanced users. Windows is great for the users who want exactly the same crappy experience they have everywhere else--because they are used to it.
I'll be honest--I have no clue what mac excels at other than 'image'. I last used a mac for day-to-day stuff back in 93. It was an LC II. I've played around a bit on newer macs, and watched a few demos on apple.com--so I'm not exactly qualified to give an opinion in that area.
Ha, still using Windows 2000 here.
So that's how you got first post. Your clock is still an hour behind...
I guess you couldn't pony up the $4,000 fee to get Microsoft to give you the patch.
How does the latter support the former?
I am liberal, and I don't give a crap about the democrat party. (I'm liberal in the sense of supporting individual freedoms and opposing authoritarianism.)
Yeah--I should be careful with that one, I have the bad habit of treating the words liberal and democrat as equal when they really aren't. Replace liberal with democrat in that previous post and you'll have what I should have said.
And you still managed to tell her "reboot" without ever even touching her machine or doing anything technical?
You deserve so much gratitude! You're not an ass at all! She should name her first born after you.
Hmm...so I fixed a problem she was having and she was unable to resolve it herself for free. No...she shouldn't say thanks. That would be using good manners and being polite. But to you I guess that's called being an ass.
The world needs more people like you.
So, a doctor has to go through many phone calls to get you to agree to work with their busy schedule, then all you do is say "reboot", and you expect them to be grateful?
Or, flip it around. A doctor has a busy schedule and expects me to move MY schedule around for her. I'm sorry--I'm contracted 9-5 Monday through Friday. I really don't feel like being treated like the scum of the earth after I hang around 2.5 hours after I'm supposed to be home with my family just so your issue gets solved.
And of course, your clearly hostile "liberals are all idiot" attitude means she sould, I guess, have given you your own weight in gold for barely agreeing to do your job.
Yeah--another generalization I have. Most liberals are uninformed idiots. The democrat party was pretty cool...50 years ago. Now it's gone down the toilet.
As for my weight in gold, no. But a simple thank you would have sufficed for going above and beyond to solve her issue. I don't get paid overtime, and the company didn't require me to be there. I had no motivation for being there except to help her--and she knew it. I told her over the phone that since she was only a consultant to the company we weren't required to support her. I also told her that our hours are 9-5. She wouldn't budge. She obviously had more important things to do--like listening to those air america recordings.
I'm just saying that since you and Mac users probably don't see eye-to-eye to begin with,
Windows users and I don't see eye to eye. Mac users and I don't see eye to eye. OS/2 users and I don't see eye to eye. Hell--even a few linux users and I don't see eye to eye. That's not where the problem comes in.
On a projector that sees maybe 8 windows laptops per day without any issues, when this mac user runs into a problem, it's immediately my fault that I don't have the projector setup right. When the desktop layout is confusing, it's my fault. Not the fault of her OS. Not the fault of her being uneducated about how the laptop/OS works. It's just my fault. And damnit, why haven't I fixed it already. She called me and left a message a week ago saying "Your projector doesn't work. *click*"
just maybe, your perception about their attitudes probably isn't exactly accurate.
I beg to differ. A few weeks later I was discussing that incident with one of the people who was in the conference room waiting for the presentation. He said "she's a bitch to everyone". I believe my perception of the attitudes of the mac users I've run into is extremely accurate. I do NOT however believe it is representative of all mac users.
Also, if you are in tech support, it IS your job after all to make stuff work
Fortunately the company that contracted with us doesn't support macs, or even allow outside computers on their network. It was a one-time issue they needed for a special presentation. And of course, when it was said and done, it wasn't my problem. It was her piece of hardware. You are right though--it is my job to make sure stuff works--and the machines that are owned by the company do work fairly well.
I'd agree, that most Mac users don't know as much about technology solutions as someone like yourself, but there really is no reason for them to have to in the first place. They have a tool, they expect it to work.
Yes, but when I'm hammering in a nail and I smash my thumb, I don't blame the manufacturer of the nail, the wood, or the hammer. I scream #*$&@ at the top of my lungs and then think "Man I'm an idiot".
This expectation and the fundamental differences in the expectations from Windows users, are what continue to drive the Mac vs. PC debate.
Actually, that is pretty insightful. Mac users expect their shit to work and are floored when it doesn't work (although it appears to not work about as much as a windows PC, there are just less of them). Windows PC users expect shit to crash and are amazed when it works.
O believers, take not Jews and Christians as friends; they are friends of each other. Those of you who make them his friends is one of them. - 5:54
Believers!
Make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Let them find harshness in you. Ye who believe! Murder those of the disbelievers - 9:123
Translated from the koran. Citation needed is just a way of saying you're too lazy to look it up, and you're hoping the guy who posted is too lazy to look it up too--so you think you win be default.
No, Windows users just got all pissed off when I told them that there would be no more help for them, as I refused to do Windows any more, and that if they didn't want to switch to something better, they have only themselves to blame for f*cking themselves over.
I'm not saying in any way that their support should be cut off, or that they should switch to something "better". I am simply describing an attitude when I show up to fix *their* problem. And that attitude is that their stuff is perfect, it must be my stuff that isn't working.
Windows users have this attitude that it's their god-given right to expect that people support Microsoft's shit.
I've run into that too from the Windows camp--but the ratio is much smaller than from the mac side. (Once again, in my own perceived opinion)
To bad for them that the concept of "god-given right" is lost on atheists.
I always find it funny when people who are self-proclaimed atheists use the phrase "god damnit", or "god help us". I laugh and they look at me funny. It's no more absurd than me saying "the flying spaghetti monster" doesn't exist and then "pasta damnit" when I stub my toe.
More likely, the attitude of 39/40 Mac users is imagined by your own insecurities.
What insecurity? That I've been in IT for 20 years and know how to deal with issues--yet mac users always have an air of elitism? I'm not stranger to elitism--I run linux on all my machines at home. I believe it to be a great OS. I just don't believe it's unfailable--and I don't blame the issues I have with linux on other people. I recognize that when a problem comes up it could be my OS, my hardware, or my own lack of understanding in a particular area.
My only question is who really has the "better than you" attitude?
I don't believe I'm better than another person or group of people simply based on my use or non-use of a product--weather it's Mac vs Windows vs Linux, Pepsi vs Coke, or Coffee vs Tea. But when a particular group is constantly blaming everything and everyone other than themselves--I think the problem lies in that group.
Several of my major clients are in the medical field. Every day I deal with doctors who are much more versed in medicine than I am. I deal with other people in the medical industry who are versed in their own specialities. I don't think that I'm better than a doctor because I know IT. And I don't think the doctor is better than me because he knows medicine. Like I said in another comment, I reserve judgement to a person's character.
On the other hand, if someone comes up to me and says "Your network is broken--it doesn't work. You need to fix your shit." And they do so without any technical knowledge, plus they treat me like dirt and insist that the problem is in no way their macintosh--when hundreds of other people are having no problem...well...that says a lot about them.
Reverse the scenario. Lets say I go to a doctor because I injured me knee playing soccer. The doctor tells me to give my knee a rest and take a few weeks off from playing. What if I turn around and tell the doctor that he's full of crap, that his x-ray machine isn't working right, that he doesn't know how to use it, etc...and that I tell him the real reason I have knee pain is because I'm having a heart attack and I need to be prescribed Nitro. In that case, I'd be the pretentious asshole.
I suppose this is the core issue. The mac users I've run into all believe the issues they are having are due to something I fucked up. It could never be their machine because they drink the Apple Marketing Kool-Aide. They completely ignore the fact that they no nothing about computers, and believe they are infallible.
Do you get pleasure from being technically smarter than a consumer using an Apple product?
No, my pleasure comes from taking home a paycheck every few weeks, feeding my family, and keeping them happy. That and the occasional game of Halo. The only thing I get from a consumer using an Apple product is a much more troubling tech support call since the user is unhelpful, uninformed, and is annoyed because the problem is automatically all my fault.
From my point of view, all OS X users are computer programmers. From your point of view, they are computer illiterates... You say tomato?
Sorry--I misunderstood what you were getting at. You are correct. I was not trying to say that all of group x were y (all mac users were elitists), just that my run-in with mac users were almost entirely bad. It's a very small subset. Lies, damn lies, and statistics and what-not.
I love the fact that Apple is using BSD at the core of their OS. And I'm glad BSD users can get away from the politics, but I don't see how my experience is circumstantial.
To me it's more like direct evidence. First-hand testimony. I have interacted with a handful of mac users. I have witnessed their behavior. I have watched the "OS of the gods" crash, reboot, and lock up.
Now it would be ridiculous to say that every last mac user is an idiot, pretentious, or a down-right asshole based off that, but based off my experiences it wouldn't be wrong to be on guard the next time someone tells me my equipment isn't working and their mac is perfect.
Seriously--if you run into 40 pitbulls and 39 of them immediately attack you without provocation and tear off an appendage, wouldn't you start being weary of pitbulls?
Most of the Apple users I have to deal with in my line of work are educators, and for the most part, they're absolute sweethearts. Every Mac user in the medical profession, however, has been similar to what you described.
I wonder why?
Two reasons:
1. Using a platform that is marketed as being better than everything else, and if you use it, you are somehow more enlightened and better than everyone else.
2. The position of being a doctor is a somewhat elite position. It takes lots of schooling, education and study. Some people when they come out believe that makes them better than everyone else. (My IT knowledge doesn't make me better than anyone. It's simply a skill I can use to help my fellow humans. It's really all about your character.)
Sounds to me like you were both being standoffish and need an attitude adjustment. Was she wrong to act like a snot, yes, but you made her do all of the troubleshooting work which is your job to do.
I don't know where you got the idea that I made her do all the troubleshooting work. I simply asked her to reproduce the issue in front of me. I don't know how many times I've run into an issue that works perfectly for me, but when the user performs the action they do it slightly different causing the problem.
Her problem was reproducible. If you booted the mac, and then plugged in the DVI to VGA converter it crashed almost every time. If you booted with it plugged in, it worked without fail.
If you lost the IT prima donna attitude and took the time to show your users how to do stuff and explain what is happening along the way, you'd probably meet a lot less resistance.
Once again, how am I supposed to show her how to fix her problem if I'm not even sure what the problem is in the first place. All she would tell me over the phone was that "it didn't work". No further detail. So I went on-site to have her show me exactly wasn't working. I can't magically fix something I don't know about. But I can change my troubleshooting tactic so I can figure out what the issue is. If she's standoffish, uninformed, or just plain can't explain it, I can have her show me exactly what happens and then either witness the issue first-hand or ask her what she thought should have happened.
After doing this job for 20 years, I've only had two complaints. One time was when I lost my patience with a complete and total asshole. I told him to fuck off and I hung up the phone. After describing the incident to my boss (rather than wait for the customer to call my boss) he agreed with me, listened to the customer side, listened to the recorded call and finally told the customer he was no longer welcome and told him he had 60 days to move his hosting, internet access, and pick up his PCs that were waiting to be repaired.
The other customer was out of the blue. I was nice as pie to her and the issue was resolved. Then a few weeks later she called up and said she didn't want me coming out anymore to fix her computers. No explanation, no reasons, just no coming back. I wish I knew what the hell it was all about.
Or it might be that Mac users, that need the support are assholes as opposed to Windows users from which support is needed by broader selection of users?
But wouldn't that be based on the premise that mac-assholes need support and nice mac users don't? I would assume they all run into issues equally. The OS doesn't pick when to have an error based on the assholiness of the user.
The only thing I see different between the two platforms is the sample pool. The ratio I run into is somewhere around 100 PCs for every 1 mac.
it is insane to judge entire nations by few morons that belongs to it. Same thing with your poor "experience" that makes me laugh.
You are correct. I should have phrased that better. My favorite quote is that there are three kinds of lies: Lies, damn lies, and statistics.
It could simply be a regional thing for example. Most of the mac users have lived in 25 miles radius of my town. And there are a lot of assholes here. I'm one of them. It's an economically depressed area and a lot of people are that way. But still, I've fixed hundreds more PCs than macs and almost every one of them was grateful and understood that sometimes PCs crash, and sometimes they don't know something about the way PCs work.
Reminds me of the time I saw the neighbour's daughter stalled in traffic. She had "borrowed" the car without asking, and had to get it home before her mother found out, but it was stalled. Turns out she was using the choke to hold her purse. The hardest part was to get her to NOT keep on pumping the gas pedal when trying to staft a flooded engine.
Was she thankful for your help?
Did she treat you like it was all your fault?
If she berated you, your equipment, and treated you like it was all your fault then she would be just like 39 of the 40 mac users I've run into.
Interesting. I see the exact same thing all the time from coworkers who use Windows. The Mac users actually seem to understand monitor-spanning versus mirroring. The fact that there are incompetent people on different platforms doesn't really prove anything.
The only differences between the mac user and a windows user having that problem is that the windows user is thankful that I fixed and the windows user doesn't immediately start off with the idea that his hardware/software platform was designed by gods and therefore it's my fault, the projectors fault, and they are better than everyone else because they got a mac.
I don't know why the Mac hating crowd needs to resort to 6+ year old marketing slogans, if there's really that many valid reasons to flame us Mac fans :-)
...which of course the playing of caused the laptop to crash. Another reboot, and an explanation that it's not the projector's fault--especially seeing as it was simply a VGA projector without audio, and she was ready to present.
...and all of this without me having to touch the macbook, do anything technical, or provide any advice beyond 'reboot'.
No, there are plenty of reasons to flame Mac fans. My experience may not be typical, and I'm certainly not directing it at you specifically, but here goes...
I have met or interacted with roughly 40 mac users in my last two years of work. I provide contracted IT services to companies. Each and every single one of those 40 mac users were pretentious twats. Every single one of them acted like the whole problem was my fault--even when they were coming to me because their mac was having issues.
My personal favorite example was a doctor working as a contractor for a company I was contracted to. She had apparently been having no end of issues getting her mac hooked up to the projector.
So after exchanging a bunch of phone calls and finally agreeing that there was no other possible time she could do it save for 7:30 at night on one reoccurring day each month, I finally gave in and said I would help her.
She whipped out her macbook and folded her arms...waiting. So I asked her to show me what she did exactly so I could witness the problem. She indignantly sighed as if I was asking too much and booted the thing up. Once it was fired up, she opened up whatever the hell the mac equivalent of powerpoint was and folded her arms again, and once again glared at me. I waited. She finally sighed again and pulled out the DVI to VGA adapter from her laptop bag and plugged it in. The mac immediately froze. The projector hadn't been plugged in, only the adapter. She threw her hands up in the air and whined "Seeee!!!" at me. "Uh, it crashed. Reboot it."
"It's not supposed to do that!!!". "Nope, probably not. You'll have to call Apple about it--but for now, reboot it and we'll try again."
This time it came up and didn't crash. So we plugged in the projector and everything worked like a charm...
Right up until the point where she was completely baffled by her desktop being EXPANDED onto the projector rather than duplicated onto the projector.
She kept dragging things off the laptop screen onto the projector. This had her totally fucking confused for 5 minutes. Several times I tried to explain what was going on, but she would cut me off and say "See--it's disappearing. Why is it on the projector and not on my laptop. It's broken."
Idiot. So after 10 minutes she finally listened to what I was explaining and figured out that her desktop was extended. (All of this while huffing about how my projector was messed up and not working correctly--because is sure as shit couldn't be her macbook. It was developed by a deity after all, and they make no mistakes.)
Next thing I know, she's firing up iTunes...and for the finale I thought "I'll bet she's *the* air america listener".
Sure enough. Hundreds of air america broadcasts/podcasts/whatever.
Oh yeah, and when I said "It looks like you're all set", there was no "Thanks" or "Awesome" or really any positive acknowledgment other than "It's about time".
And yes, all 39 other mac users displayed the same total lack of technical knowledge and the same "I'm better than you attitude" when really they were just so fucking stupid I'm surprised they didn't die half way through the troubleshooting process because they didn't remember to breathe.
I suppose I should amend this slightly. I actually do know 2 mac users that are intelligent. My friends parents. They bought it because o