Slashdot Mirror
Google Scoops Microsoft w/ Mesh Applications
Julie188 writes "Google's offline access for Google Apps is a kick in the shin at Ray Ozzie. Google took a page right out of the Ozzie mesh playbook when it announced the offline access (let's call it Google Docs Unplugged). Google delivered desktop apps from the cloud first and then added unplugged functionality. Microsoft wants to do the same, but in reverse, and faces an infinitely bigger challenge: rebuild Microsoft apps so they can become cloud enabled while pulling its giant channel (and embedded software) along in the process. Good luck with that, Microsoft. But then again, just because Google is making faster progress doesn't mean much. There's no guarantee users will like the unplugged versions of cloud apps."
cloud apps is such a dreamy name...........
It's technology is called SharePoint. All Office apps are integrated with it and you can work offline, online, collaborate, etc. Oh yea, and it worked longed before Google docs did. This submitter is a typical anti-MS hack and doesn't know what they are talking about. GG Slashdot.
People have been using mixed on-line/off-line computing for a long time; neither Microsoft nor Google invented this or were the first to figure out that it was useful.
What matters is how exactly it's done. I find Google's offerings a lot more persuasive than Microsoft's. Microsoft's collaborative features are cumbersome and hard to use, and Microsoft's office suite is expensive and heavy-weight. Google Docs is easy to get started with and works for most people; mainly what it needs is better embedded object support (including math) and bug fixing.
Is this "in the browser" functionality? I read TFA but I could not work out if it was some application you download or whether it works in the browser. If its in the browser, then it might allow you to continue to work offline when a connection goes, but could you use a computer somewhere without internet access to create or modify a document?
If it is an application, on the other hand, it would be nice to know what platforms are supported. It would be ironic if the "kick in the teeth" for Microsoft only ran on Microsoft systems.
Yeah...just not seeing that happening...
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~ |rip/\/\aster /\/\onkey
I don't know who's going to win either Office battle, but I don't think one player will win both. Cloud apps and "traditional" (offline) apps are just different animals, as are GOOG and MSFT different companies. Clearly thier battles are heating up, but I don't see a clear victor here - just more bits being twiddled.
The problem with socialism is that they always run out of other people's money. - Margaret Thatcher
Virtual apps, streamed or live on the cloud. Unplugged. Mesh.
The summary was full of buzz words so I had to RTFA...which was also full of buzzwords
What I don't get is why basic office application are not better off on your local machine, or even OO.org on a flashdisk along with your documents, than on google's or microsofts server being analysed every which way.
Can I flag this story as a flamebait?
-Mark
Dovie'andi se tovya sagain.
There's no guarantee users will like the unplugged versions of cloud apps.
Having to use a plugged, especially plugged-only and "internet as an afterthought", application is akin to having to drive down to the theater to watch a movie - sure the big screen is nice, but putting up with all the downsides is less and less attractive and the screens are getting smaller and the popcorn is getting more and more stale.
Meanwhile, using an app that easily unplugs is like having my favorite movies available anytime (that is, with an acceptable delay in feedback time) - I can watch on the (upcoming) Mitsubishi Laser TV whatever hi-def I had downloaded to the PS3, listening on the fine audio system, enjoying the whole affair with a group I can choose, and having an ice cold Becks with hot off the stove popcorn. Yeah, it's a little extra work, for now, but it's much more appealing.
I enjoy watching Google beat the snot out of the previous 900lb gorilla as much as the next guy, but this was an understatement. All too often, Google has done the interesting 80% of the functionality and leaves the boring 20% of the cleanup, followthrough, polish and finish languishing in "beta" stage for months, years, forever. That's the 80/20 rule: the boring 20% is actually 80% of the sweat and toil to make a solid product/service.
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I think Google Apps main appeal is the fact they're online, can be accessed anywhere, etc. Feature-wise they're clearly inferior to MS Office.
Without the online component (or "offline feature") it'll just be another freeware piece of crap.
There is a parallel here between usage of Google Docs and Linux Usage. As UMPCs powered with OSs like gOS use Google Docs and Gmail as their default document and mail providers, offlining these applications is very important. Truly now, we may be entering the phase where "The network is the computer". As users become disillusioned with Windows Vista and seek alternatives, this is the golden opportunity for computer manufacturers and more importantly, the Open Source community to promote and support these applications.
Help a man when he is in trouble and he will remember you when he is in trouble again.
You really think MS faces the bigger task? MS has widely accepted desktop and server apps already, and a working framework for companies to build a back end with database, web and other common services. I'd think MS would face the easier challenge here; all they need to do is convince people to swap out (outsource) their core corporate back end processing in favor of similar services hosted by Microsoft.
Google's challenge seems to be to convince companies to outsource their core corporate back end processes using brand new back end applications and desktop apps that just came out of beta. That seems like the tougher hill to climb.
In either case, the challenge isn't new; "cloud computing" seems like just version 10 of the outsourced processing pitch that's been used in the computing industry for at least 40 years - just ask EDS, IBM, Unisys, etc.
Google didn't hardly delivered Docs in the cloud first, it bought Upstartle and inherited Writely which then was rebranded as Docs.
Could you point me to a URL, so that I may try it out for myself? Or is it, in traditional Redmond fashion, a lot of talk and no substance at all?
There's two competing paradigms that are going to define the market for the future: web-based Software as a Service (SaaS), and its nemesis, old software industry styled computing as a service (CaaS).
SaaS relies on you buying the OS or installing a free one, ditto for browser, and then using your applications online. Problems include: portability of your data, privacy, control of your data and its removal, the unreliablity of internet connections, and the unreliablity of browsers. Advantages: it's free, no IT department controls it, and someone else updates it. Google is the champion of this paradigm.
CaaS takes the current computing paradigm, in which you buy a computer, buy or download an OS or software, and maintain it yourself (or have an IT department do it if your business is big enough) and makes it subscription based. Somewhat realistically, it insists on this being a pay service, which as the internet ad bonanza begins to fade, seems sensible. Problems include: what happens if you don't keep up your subscription, unreliability of network software delivery, large companies like MSFT having knowledge of what's on your computer. Advantages: your software stays current, you can buy additional software and services from a trusted vendor, you know what your patch level is. Old software -- MSFT, Adobe, even Apple -- are the champions of this paradigm.
http://www.chrisblanc.org/blog/information-technology/2008/03/24/computing-as-a-service/
Basically, while mesh computing sounds cool, it's a regression to a cheap form of thin client interaction. It adds nothing other than someone else maintaining your software for you, which Microsoft will do for their software, as will some Linux distros, automatically. Ignore the hype and the trends, look for the enduring technologies... that's the engineer's way.
Real Programmers push their data to the web and let everyone else mirror it ;)
I think the same applies here, except google is doing the mirroring and it's one less hassle at the cost of them knowing that I have a spreadsheet that holds library dependencies for my slackware packages. I can deal with that.
If I mod you up, it doesn't necessarily mean I agree with what you've said, sorry.
Don't get me started on Sharepoint. That useless piece of garbage I have to "use" at work everyday...
*Make lame slashdot joke above*
Well, in the case of Google Docs, there's no easy way to make paragraph breaks and linebreaks appear different. That, to me, is pretty much a showstopper.
GCHQ Quantum Insert installed. If only our tongues were made of glass, how much more careful we would be when we speak
sigh. Sometimes I wonder why I bother running 64-bit linux.
"Good luck with that"?? Doesn't M$ currently have like 90% of the office market? I think its Google that needs luck.
Could somebody please explain to me what manner of buzzword "Microsoft['s...] giant channel" is supposed to be? I seriously can't help but picture it as a euphemism of some sort.
Last time I checked google didn't support any real document format for export. I guess it is because the actual formatting capabilities in google are limited, but I would expect a converter.
*Continue overuse of the meme of using the word meme in slashdot postings here*
Does anyone know what format Docs will be saving the data in? It's being saved locally... what's the format?
Can I share it by emailing it or do I have to share it via Google?
Can I re-process it into a PDF?
Can I run it through a batch script?
Is it a format that I can search through locally and what meta-data does it expose to the host OS for use in filtering, organization, etc.
A fool throws a stone into a well and a thousand sages can not remove it.
Yup, still in beta after all these years.
The key difference between the two businesses is that Microsoft makes software, and knows how to monetize what they do. Google makes... um... advertising?... and has no idea how to make money on anything they do which doesn't involve selling ads.
One thing the Stallmanista hordes infatuated with Google need to be asking themselves is this: what happens when REAL business people take over Google, and start trimming the fat on stuff which isn't pulling it's weight? And what happens when Google decides it can make even more money by selling it's data mine not just to the NSA, but to anyone? Ooops, sorry! Your company made the bad decision to rely on Google, so now all your information is being sold to the highest bidder... maybe even your competitors.
Yeah. So sorry, Slashdot, but all the rational companies aren't buying the "DUNT BE TEH EVEL!!11" schtick. We'll stick with a company with a proven track record of being committed to the needs of businesses, thank you very much.
Making Google apps available offline is not particularly interesting. Wow...local storage...you mean like a decent Mac or Windows application offers? Syncrhonizing files up to a Web site is fairly trivial. In terms of offering the ability to synchronize files from a local store up to "cloud storage" Microsoft acquired Groove 3-4 years ago which was doing that years before. Not news. I'm no expert with inside information but if I know Microsoft I'd guess that they're thinking about making "mesh" into a platform for applications by anybody, not just Microsoft. That's what Microsoft is (usually) pretty good at. Providing a capability that would allow appliations and data to "roam" with the user as they move from device to device would be neat. Then I can use high fidelity applications on a Mac or PC when I have access to one or I can access degared versions of the apps (AJAX, Silverlight, Flash blah blah blah) when I don't have access to local applications.
You want to start experiencing what a real Mesh feels like, install foldershare. You can use any application to work with your data rather then be tied to one application (like google docs). It's been killer for keeping everything between my work, home and laptop machines up to date and also sharing full quality photos to my extended family. Once we all add in the ability for web applications to access and stay in sync with my data and we will be cooking with fire.
how about some lolcatz?
http://icanhascheezburger.com/
I mean, OK, they've got Sketchup - I think we all knew about that one...
Bow-ties are cool.
You mean like you just did? After all, you didn't say you tried it, you just talked to someone who claimed it worked.
Unlike you, I did try it out before posting. Just like everybody else is saying, it doesn't work. The only document types that I can create are notes, lists, task lists, contact lists, and event lists. There's no way to create PowerPoint, no Word, no Excel.
If I upload a document and try to open it, it says:
Is that clear enough for you? Or how much clearer do you need Microsoft to spell it out for you?
Now, why don't you go and try it out yourself, instead of making unfounded accusations against other people and proving yourself to be an idiot.
Well God forbid they actually have to make an Office 09 suite that's GOOD to compete instead of releasing a bunch of stupid ideas all rolled together into an overpriced Office 07.
Google's Super Secret Search Algorithm: SELECT @search_results FROM internet WHERE @search_results = 'good'
Are you selling the article on Ebay or something? I'm glad this product includes Mesh Applications!
100% wrong. I don't know how new the feature is, but Office Live has let you do this for some time. Please don't spread FUD.
I have Office Live up on my screen. It does not support browser-based editing.
Perhaps you're confusing some kind of MS Office ActiveX embedding with browser-based editing. Or maybe you're simply lying.
Really? I've never come across one...
Well, evidently, you're living under a rock.
care to show us some examples?
Go read the Google Docs API documentation, or just try out one of the many third party Google Docs gadgets; they're a right click away in Google Spreadsheets.
Ah yes, the "fewer features are better" view. Seriously?
Within this context, it's not a view, it's a fact. Seriously.
Google announced offline access to their web-only productivity suite on April 1st. Isn't this a joke?
Apparently it's real, as the Docs Help has very serious-natured help information related to Offline (no one calls it "unplugged" functionality: http://docs.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?answer=92323&ctx=sibling
What? You use phrases like "how will it render" without understanding its meaning. At least you cannot as you wouldn't write it.
How do you think the browser version of a word processor will "render" on a Mac with Safari vs. Vista with IE 7 vs. XP with IE 6 vs. Linux with Firefox 2 or Firefox 3?? Is that enough problems already?
You want it to "render" properly, you use a medium to do that. It is NOT some word processing document. Some example of things that *should* "render" properly would be PDF, or PostScript.
Regardless, I do agree with the GP. You are much better off with regular word processor like OpenOffice than something like Google or Microsoft online offerings. But hey, that's just me.
Microsoft getting some love on Slashdot? This is one heck of an April Fool's joke.
-516
I read the summary twice and still have no idea what the fuck the submitter is talking about. Clouds? What?
but lets stop kidding around and imagining that google docs are going to unseat Word...
I mean, does anyone here even use google docs? The last few times I tried them, they crashed firefox over and over again while I was trying to write simple text documents.
Then there's the issues of writing a major word processors in javascript... shudder...
although that is going to be quite a while from what I hear.
The first application that supported offline use was google reader (reader.google.com). Now it sounds like their javascript "word clone" (does anyone even use that thing? It crashes firefox on me whenever I try to use it).
I think thirdparty people are also supposed to be able to use the plugin that backs their offline access.
It's built on Sharepoint platform. There are tell tale signs all over the place.
Though they are certainly more heavy-weight because they require the .NET runtime, XBAPs and Click Once deployment provide an interesting way to do this, I think. If you correctly design your app to work in partial trust then it can function as an XBAP embedded in IE/Firefox just fine, and you can seamlessly shift up to a local app via Click Once deployment (think Java Webstart). Same app, same code base, now it just runs locally (and has access to the local filesystem since it'd be a full trust local app)
Certainly that's more heavyweight than a pure JS/DOM implementation, but since Google Gears requires a plugin anyway...then again, the Google implementations will (likely) always support more platforms since Microsoft wouldn't want to risk market share by implementing for Mac/Linux if they don't have to.
Exactly. Many of us like unclouded versions of plugged apps.
Office Live does not let you create MS Office files with the browser. The option simply doesn't exist in the menu.
Office Live does not let you edit MS Office files with the browser. If you open an MS Office file in Office Live, it tells you that you need to use "the application" to do so, namely Microsoft Office.
If you have MS Office installed, it may embed the Office editor into the browser window, but that has all the same disadvantages of using MS Office in an external window.
Those are the facts. Now stop lying.
Wait a little bit and you'll see how wrong you are about what Microsoft can create. It will soon beat Google to the punch. Mark my word