It's just that there is no copyright in those contries on those works until they are Licensed. Not I say License and Not Publish.
Apparently you live in Iran- because that's the only country where the law is still like that (and that also has electricity, I mean)
Everyplace else scrapped those old laws by 1987. Taiwan was the last holdout, but even it changed over in 2002. Now copyright from one country applies on almost the whole world.
Secondly, in legal terms there is no real difference between distributing the script as text and distributing a subtitled video file: both involve distributing an unauthorised translation of a copyright work
No, there is a legal difference (and not just that the studio is far less likely to sue someone who only passes out scripts).
Subtitle files might (and I don't know for sure) actually fall under Fair Use. There are 4 legal criteria, and two of them are: "What portion of the original work is copied?" (answer: Very little, because subtitles are a tiny amount of data, byte-wise) and "How does the copy effect the market for the original?" (answer: the subtitles actually increase the chance someone will buy a Japanese-only DVD and read along)
So it might even be the case that subtitles are legal Fair Use. (Or maybe not...for example, if it turns out that they don't encourage people to buy import DVDs, but instead of just download raw video from somewhere else, then the economic impact becomes negative again)
No. I propose that fansubbers either: a) Pick shows that don't look like they'll get an official international release. b) Don't talk like you're not hurting the profits of anime companies, because you are.
It doesn't take a genius to make good guesses about whether a show is destined for a USA release. For some stuff like Super Milk Chan and Hikaru No Go, it's understandable to mistakenly assume they won't be licensed. Anyone can make honest errors.
But when the series is about a pair of busty cyborg catgirls battling vampires in space, then fansubbers shouldn't pretend they're somehow "helping the company with free promotion" when they upload the 26th and final episode to #anime-rips.
The question of monetary damages has a major determination on the penalty for infringemnet but not on the fact of whether infringement has occured.
Wrong. She was referring to the Fair Use rules. Copying a work MIGHT be noninfringing depending on 4 factors, one of which is financial/economic impact. (The others are things like quantity of work copied, etc. In fact, if fansubbers had a rule that they'd only do the first 1 or 2 episodes of any series, then they'd come a lot closer to legal Fair Use, since they only copied a small fraction of the total show)
Ah, my mistake then. I assumed you had some clue what you were talking about. Instead, it turns out that you're just arguing from a position of complete ignorance.
I, on the other hand, was involved in VHS/post-office fansubbing since back when a 1200bps modem was considered an impressive upgrade. So even if I don't have uncontestable facts to prove my case, I am coming from a position of some experience. (If you want a little more authority, chat with the storekeeper at one of the dedicated anime-shops in Manhattan or Boston. Ask her if internet fansubs are cutting into business!)
Maybe if you walked around a college dorm hall and compare how many students download fansubs versus actually buying legal DVDs, you could learn something. My position isn't a secret; it's pretty self-evident when you get in with the target population.
had it not been for the work of fansubbers making Anime in general accessible to Americans over then past 20 years'
And since the events of 20 years ago have zero bearing on whether or not today's internet fansub releases are helpful or harmful, you haven't answered the question at all. (Since you're not paying attention, I remind you that my starting post already acknowledged that 20 years ago fansubs promoted international anime appreciation, but the industry doesn't need that kind of help today)
PS. It is a spelling error to capitalize "Anime" when it isn't at the beginning of a sentence. (Unless you're talking about an actual person or character named "Anime", which has happened, although it's very rare)
Actually, I'd say (without going to a dictionary, 'cause I'm lazy), that "decimate" means "to destroy all but 10% of its original size
Well yeah, you'd say that. And you'd be wrong. Because I do own a dictionary, and it does mean to kill exactly 1/10th. In fact, Roman legions were threatened that if they retreated from battle, the general would walk down the line and stab every 10th man to "decimate" the unit.
Not necessarily, I can tell you of about 10 series I'm waiting for a US release of so I can buy them and own a high quality copy as well as the DVD extras.
Like many of the responses I've got today, providing one counterexample where something didn't happen doesn't in any way prove that it can NEVER happen. It's hard to prove a negative, and tossing out example after example won't make it easier.
In fact it's unlikely I would have bought these if I hadn't seen them first.
IF that's true, and IF there are enough other people like that to make a substantial boost to sales, then fansubs are still not needed. The producers can easily authorize the release of 1-3 subtitled episodes on the internet as a way to promote and gauge interest.
These type of things are also quite rare. Big O's the only one I know of where more episodes were made because of popularity in the US.
They're not rare anymore. In fact they're planned up front, rather than as surprises after the first run ends, so you won't hear about it as much anymore. Regardless, fansubbers did release copies of Big-O's 2nd season.
ADV has helped pay for the production of some series, but they did that without fan input.
No. ADV pays attention to fan input for almost everything they decide to release. Or are you accusing them of being complete fools who can't even think to troll a few message-boards to keep the pulse of the audience?
You're either confused or misunderstanding the TV series here as well. There are two TV series based on Ghost in the Shell.
Or maybe I didn't want to launch into meaningless digressions into trivialities of Japanese trademark law. (I could go off about Trigun versus Trigun Maximum, for example, if anybody actually cared about details like that). I'm not confused at all. If you think I'm wrong, then you might not know exactly what "series" is defined as. ("series, n. things that come out one after another")
Knowing it would eventually be released is a silly condemnation of those who fansubbed it. Even though it's insanely popular here, there was no guarantee it would indeed be released.
It isn't silly at all. I can hardly imagine what combination of ignorance and stupidity would be needed to render a person unable to predict that GITS-SAC would have a USA DVD release after watching just one raw episode.
First you assume only children would be interested in Pokemon.
No. I assume they're all the audience that matters, or greater than 98%. I'm sure there are even some adults in Japan who watch Pokemon, and from an economic standpoint, they're freeloaders, since the advertising supporting the broadcast is irrelevant to their buying habits.
...the commercial engine is running on its own by _now_. (my emphasis added)
No. You cannot honestly add emphasis there, since that was my entire point! Repeating someone with underbars doesn't add anything.
The point is that: a) The commercial engin would never have even turned over had it not been for the fansubs
Nope. The question is whether or not fansubbing is helpful or harmful to anime companies, and your point (a) is irrelevant to this question.
b) If the fansubs disapear, all the anime* sites you can imagin wouldn't suffice
That's simply false.
Why am I going to the trouble of buying them? because I got hooked on the anime thanks to the fansubs
That does not compute. You can't possibly be buying discs just because you're hooked- if that were the case, then you could download fansubs, and be satisfied.
You must also have a level of guilt or emotional obiligation to pay for something you already have. That's commendable if true, but such generosity should not be assumed in the public at large.
One thing I've learned is that it is impossible to determine what stuff will get licensed
But both your examples support the position that stuff is quite likely to be licensed if there is much attractiveness.
So what is a Fansub group to do?
How about, obey federal laws? Just a thought!
Or, alternatively, they could make an honest guess about whether something will be licensed. For example, is there any real doubt that Fox Kids will eventually show Naruto? Not really, but fansubbers happily go along pretending that it's not totally obvious.
And, regarding Naruto, if it does get licensed, will anyone really be able to argue that the acquisition was promoted at all by the fansubs? That concept even fails the "say it with a straight face" test. Cartoon Network is aware of the show and merchanidising opportunities.
Even if they used popularity of fansubs to measure demand, 2-4 episodes would be enough for that purpose. Fansubbers who keep working to episode 50 and beyond must understand that the point of diminishing returns for "free advertisement" has long since passed.
You assert to know the truth, and that no one else knows the truth.
Nope. While I do happen do know the truth, many other people do as well. This includes not only 100% of the legal anime companies, and the governments and police departments of both the USA and Japan, but also many fansubbers. In fact, I even think that YOU know the truth!
My suspicion is that you know this, but prefer to deny it, so you can go on enjoying fansubs without pangs of guilt.
So, not only are you wrong, but you are being an asshole about it.
You've got a lot to learn about how insults work. I won't explain it to you, though- that'd kill the delicious irony.
Since we're apparently talking about an American company,
Since you apparently invent alleged context out of thin air, it's painful for me to continue talking with you.
By that logic, since any asshole can go buy a Porsche Boxster (or, God forbid, a Cayenne), then all Porsches must be available?
Um no, neither that sentence, nor the rest of your post, has any approximate resembelance to logic or rationality. Most importantly, you seem oblivious of the fact that non-absolute positions (which acknowledge grey areas, like mine) are inherently stronger than absolutist ones.
However, I am very curious about one thing: Once you develop an interest in the stuff that isn't US distro, you get to run over to Japan and buy some DVDs at $40/ea + $20s/h
What might some of those titles be? And no ancient stuff, please- give me names from this decade.
Looking at the program listings for the USA's Cartoon Network, I see several anime upcoming: Cowboy Bebob, Inu Yasha, Lost Exile, Wolf's Rain, Ghost In The Shell (I presume that anything they broadcast will also have DVD sales shortly).
And, a quick trip to a bittorrent site tells me that each of those is still accessible as fansubs. (And also that fansubs are distributed intermingled with DVD-rips of commercially-subtitled USA releases). Can you dispute that evidence? Because it's really all I need to show harm.
For the last time: the existence of occasional non-harmful fansubbers doesn't negate all the others.
Without fansubbers, no anime would be released in the USA.
If you believe something so stupid, it's understandable how you can come to stupid conclusions.
I just wish I could see you on television, telling a reporter with a straight face: "Ghost In The Shell: SAC would never have been released in the USA unless fansubbers had released it on the internet first. Even though there was enormous global demand from the first time the pre-production was even announced, there would've been no USA DVD or TV releases without fansubs blazing the trail".
Because that's a subset of what you just claimed....
Until the fansubbers were well established and started getting US distribution licenses (ADV films was started by fansubbers), the studio had no interest in US distribution.
True, but irrelevant. Whether or not fansubs helped to increase anime's popularity back in 1993 before Dragonball and Sailormoon where televised in the USA doesn't effect whether or not they help the industry at all today.
And to any honest observer, it should be an easy question: anime DVDs are in so many Blockbusters, anime episodes are on Cartoon Network each night, anime websites review new shows in Japan the day they air: anime-awareness in the English-speaking world is as high as it's going to go. There is no longer any need for fansubbers to promote demand, the authorized corporate advertisers and independent media can do this fine on their own.
So, one example of fansubbers not acting solely in the interest of an animation studio suddenly proves your point
Yes, it does. Even though I really could have many more than 1 example. You need to understand how absolute arguments work: when I say a rate is non-zero, and others claim the rate is zero, then I'm the one who proves herself right with only one example. Proving the negative is a lot harder!
your point (whatever that is)?
You can go back and read it if you like. But since you're too lazy, I'll reproduce it here: "It's easy to argue that fansubs reduce the sales of eventual anime releases in the USA"
They were acting according to the existing agreement
No they weren't. There was no "agreement" there, since by definition, an "agreement" is the fruit of discussion between at least two groups. The fansubber's code ("Don't distribute once it's been licensed") was something fansubbers created on their own, without consultation with anime companies, in the hopes of making themselves less attractive towards litigation.
They aren't just trying to promote anime to the general public
Quite true- and that's why fansubs hurt sales. The only way one can argue that fansubs help sales is to say they promote awareness leading to more paying customers later.
- they are trying to get at something that isn't widely available, which any collector can understand.
Which shows that they're hurting sales, at least by a tiny amount. After all, some small percentage of the viewers of fansubs might instead buy the $70 Japanese-only DVDs and then hire a translator for their own local use.
they are trying to get at something that isn't widely available
Hey, the 20th century called- they want their global-media attitudes back! The very suggestion that anime isn't widely available to viewers in the USA is ludicrous. Only a small fraction of fansub distribution goes to shows that aren't a absolute lock to get a legal USA release within 2 years.
Maybe there do exist some shows with zero commercial potential in the USA, which are yet popular enough to attract a fansubber or two. But, just because some few fansubbers aren't harmful doesn't absolve all of them.
Wrong. In fact it is the opposite. The fansubs provide free publicity among interest groups so that when it is released, the sales are greater than if there had been no fansubs.
Wrong. As I already explained with the excellent example of "Ghost In The Shell", the days when anime was a low-profile niche interest have long since passed. The very idea that Ghost In The Shell was brought to DVD and TV in the USA because it was fansubbed is laughable on the face.
Probably it was true once that fansubbing build up audience demand for later legal releases. But it's time to move on up into the 21st century: anime awareness is as high as it's going to get. Fansubs no longer make any meaningful increase in awareness, since there's no where left to grow. The only effect they have left is satisfying demand, partly from viewers who won't care enough to buy the DVDs later.
Minna Kirai, you do not understand what a proof is
Rzbx, you do not even understand what's going on. I already explained this twice, so here's your 3rd and final chance to pick it up:
1. NeoSkandranon said "It's hard to argue fansubs hurt sales".
2. In 8 seconds of work, I wrote a single sentence which argued that fansubs hurt sales. 3. Anything I can do in just 8 seconds is easy. 4. Therefore, NeoSkandranon was wrong. I have personally and scientifically proved that it is not hard to argue fansubs hurt sales
Since you're confused, you think the truth of an argument is the same thing as the ease with which I composed it. What I have unimpeachibly proved is that the argument is easy to make. Whether the argument is right or wrong is an entirely separate question from how easy it is to state (and one that I'll address below, albeit incompletely).
Here is a simple argument. The exposure provided by the "fansubs" created a market that would have been more difficult to enter otherwise and most likely cost far more to create. Perhaps you have no knowledge of pirates in the world of ideas
Yes, that is indeed a simple argument. It's also a different argument, and its truth or falsehood is independent of the veracity of the earlier claim. We can consider this one too, if you insist (although I don't feel like getting into it here and now).
I will say a few words on the central argument, though: "Do fansubs reduce the profits of anime companies?"
Fact: Fansubbers don't only write subtitle files, they also normally overlay them onto raw video and distribute the whole thing as a package. Fact: Fansubbers don't stop at 30% or 50% or 75% through a series, they tend to go right to the end. (A quick search just showed me that fansubbers have just released their 129th episode of a popular series about an elastic pirate) Fact: Even if a fansub group "halts distribution" of a series that has been licensed, they cannot get it off of Kazaa and bittorrent. Fact: Anime is highly popular in the USA today. Book chains like Barnes & Noble have shelves of manga, 5 anime series are broadcast on Fox and Cartoon Network every day, and websites like animeondvd.com, animenfo.com, animefu.com, and almost every anime*.com you could name are providing a solid stream of consumer hype. Fact: A lot of televised anime is story-driven, with plot twists and linearity. Fact: A lot of televised anime is produced inexpensively, with graphic quality that's adequate, but not outstanding.
Taking all those facts together, it appears that the amount by which fansubs increase revenue by building up anticipation is less than the amount by which they reduce it by undercutting sales of already-viewed episodes. Can I absolutely prove that? Of course not. I also can't prove that more than 75% of USAins drink alcohol socially, or even that George W. Bush is the national president! (For all I know, he's died in the past 15 seconds) But with availible facts in hand, the most sensible conclusion is that fansubs hurt profits.
A final note: If fansubbers would restrain themselves to only doing the first 3 episodes, or 25% of a series (whichever is less), then the argument that they're only working to build up demand for an eventual USA release would have a lot more credibility.
if the first copy was a fansub, they get money where they otherwise would not have done so) a
Wrong. This is simple 2x2 combinatorics, but you listed only 3 of the 4 outcomes... and "If a consumer acquires two" is a ludicrous starting point anyhow.
Again, it's perfectly possible to make a profit out of media which most people have already seen.
Is it? Well, good for me that I never claimed fansubs completely and utterly obilterate any possibility of making even $1 of profit. Since I only said that they reduce the profit potential, and not entirely destroy it, I'm in the clear. My specific words were "cut into sales".
You're employing George W. Bush-style logic:
Pretend that an issue has only 2 sides, 0% or 100%.
Find one counterexample to demonstrate that 100% isn't true.
Then claim that since the actual rate isn't exaclty 100%, it's exactly 0%, and that everyone who said it was 2% or 15% or something are wrong (not to mention 7i%)
Again, it's perfectly possible to make a profit out of media which most people have already seen. Ask Lucas.
Stop with the Lucas example. It's hardly relevant. He re-released Star Wars after twenty years, by which time the old VHS copies were just about disintegrating. Furthermore, he introduced substantial all-new content. Furthermore, it wasn't legal for owners of those VHS tapes to give copies to new viewers who've been born in those 20 years. (Whereas with anime fansubs, re-distributing copies of a fansub is every bit as legal as it was to acquire initially- that is, 0% legal) Furthermore, suppose that Lucas hadn't made any VHS release of Star Wars before the DVDs came out- the DVD sales would probably have been higher if they weren't competing against existing VHS.
Comparing fragile physical media to infintely perfectly replicable digital files doesn't work. Nor does comparing a remastered, enhanced version of a generation-defining cinematic masterpiece with a 26-episode plot-driven shojo love story.
When I do see a white one, all of a sudden all crows are white.
Well, if you're that stupid, then you've got some major cognitive problems, I guess. (Apparently very similar to how the USA's president can only discern things in black-or-white, ignoring the possibility of grays or mixtures)
Or, where you trying to make a silly analogy against my argument? That might work if I had claimed fansubs totally annihilate any chance of anime companies profiting in the USA.
Good thing I didn't say that, then. What we did say is they reduce the revenue potential. And they do.
The profit damage of fansubs isn't 100%, but it isn't 0% either. It's somewhere in between, which means I'm right.
How do you think the American public knows of these anime?
A little thing called the internets. You might have heardofit.
Oh, and let me shoot that one back at you: "How do you think the American public knows of these fansubs?" People who know they like anime can go searching for fansubs. People who might like anime, but haven't heard of it, won't learn of it from fansubs... they won't stumble onto a distribution place unless a friend points it out to them- and in that case, the friend could just as easily lend a (legal) DVD.
(Or, you could argue that a person randomly downloading from Kazaa might stumble on anime that way. But in that case, it could just as well be a DVD rip with subtitles, and not a fansub job)
For now I will stop shooting holes in your story.
You haven't contradicted me at all, yet. I already stipulated that, starting in the 1980s, fansubbers nourished the audience for anime in the USA. But that was a long time ago- even if fansubbers were a jumpstart to international anime viewership, the commercial engine is running on its own by now. US fans can see the same promotional materials the Japanese viewers do.
AC: Why doesn't someone just once TRY showing a kid's anime subtitled and see how it does, instead of just asuming all kids are to stupid to read?
You're right, there are probably some kids that are interested enough in a show to watch it subtitled. (You could even claim to their parents that it's educational, because it provides a tiny fraction of foreign-language education).
However, childrens' cartoons means television, and television in the USA means English (or Spanish, on special channels). No broadcaster will put on a show their audience can't auditorally comprehend, at least in the next 10 years.
That's why NO film company has ever released a DVD of a film that's already been out on VHS.
Congratulations, you've almost reached the intellectual achievement of George W. Bush. Maybe you too can become President someday!
Your logic makes as much sense as claiming that a bullet can't kill someone, because some soldiers have been known to shoot an enemy even though he already shot him just seconds ago.
NeoSkandranon claimed it was "hard to argue". I produced a cogent argument in less than 8 seconds of effort, which demonstrates conclusively that it's easy to argue.
Furthermore, if I had to prove not only that the argument was easy to write, but that it's substance is correct, the New York times this weekend interviewed people who download anime heavily, in preference to buying DVDs (that article is already in another slashdot story)
But I know it's pirating and don't try to pretend it's anything else.
Uh no, it's not pirating. The definition of piracy, both legally and in common use, is a violent crime committed on or near the ocean.
It's incredibly rare for the Japanese mafia to intercept a container ship and steal crates of anime DVDs. But if they do, and you buy one of them, then and only then can you consider yourself a pirate.
a different style doesn't mean it isn't a cartoon.
Language purists know that "cartoon" means "Cariature tune", and is only one of many kinds of animation. For example, the actor Jim Carey is often described as behaving "cartoonishly"- and it doesn't mean he was drawn on paper. The word "cartoon" has connotations of a flippant attitude and a lightweight storyline, aspects universal to American-produced "cartoons", but not nearly as prevalent in anime.
Because the USA has gone for so many decades without producing any popular animations which weren't also cartoons, speakers today are unable to find words aside from "cartoon" to refer to non-photographic animations.
(Of course, those are the same people who know that "decimate" means to destroy only 10% of the subject, and that a tsunami isn't a tradegy, because tradegies are always the victim's own fault...)
Cowboy Bebop is the classic example of a very good dub.
No it isn't. My ears were bleeding after only 20 seconds of Teddy Bomber...
It's not only that they did a bad job, but they were working under impossible constraints. One simply cannot construct believable English dialog between two tough-guy bounty hunters who call each other "Spike" and "Jet"... it just doesn't work. To Japanese ears, those words are meaningless sounds appropriate for foreign names- but in English, they are nouns from the dictionary, and it comes off silly to use them as given names.
Slashdot Mirror
It's just that there is no copyright in those contries on those works until they are Licensed. Not I say License and Not Publish.
Apparently you live in Iran- because that's the only country where the law is still like that (and that also has electricity, I mean)
Everyplace else scrapped those old laws by 1987. Taiwan was the last holdout, but even it changed over in 2002. Now copyright from one country applies on almost the whole world.
Secondly, in legal terms there is no real difference between distributing the script as text and distributing a subtitled video file: both involve distributing an unauthorised translation of a copyright work
No, there is a legal difference (and not just that the studio is far less likely to sue someone who only passes out scripts).
Subtitle files might (and I don't know for sure) actually fall under Fair Use. There are 4 legal criteria, and two of them are: "What portion of the original work is copied?" (answer: Very little, because subtitles are a tiny amount of data, byte-wise) and "How does the copy effect the market for the original?" (answer: the subtitles actually increase the chance someone will buy a Japanese-only DVD and read along)
So it might even be the case that subtitles are legal Fair Use. (Or maybe not...for example, if it turns out that they don't encourage people to buy import DVDs, but instead of just download raw video from somewhere else, then the economic impact becomes negative again)
Is your proposal that a fan subbing group:
No. I propose that fansubbers either:
a) Pick shows that don't look like they'll get an official international release.
b) Don't talk like you're not hurting the profits of anime companies, because you are.
It doesn't take a genius to make good guesses about whether a show is destined for a USA release. For some stuff like Super Milk Chan and Hikaru No Go, it's understandable to mistakenly assume they won't be licensed. Anyone can make honest errors.
But when the series is about a pair of busty cyborg catgirls battling vampires in space, then fansubbers shouldn't pretend they're somehow "helping the company with free promotion" when they upload the 26th and final episode to #anime-rips.
The question of monetary damages has a major determination on the penalty for infringemnet but not on the fact of whether infringement has occured.
Wrong. She was referring to the Fair Use rules. Copying a work MIGHT be noninfringing depending on 4 factors, one of which is financial/economic impact. (The others are things like quantity of work copied, etc. In fact, if fansubbers had a rule that they'd only do the first 1 or 2 episodes of any series, then they'd come a lot closer to legal Fair Use, since they only copied a small fraction of the total show)
I've never seen a fansub.
Ah, my mistake then. I assumed you had some clue what you were talking about. Instead, it turns out that you're just arguing from a position of complete ignorance.
I, on the other hand, was involved in VHS/post-office fansubbing since back when a 1200bps modem was considered an impressive upgrade. So even if I don't have uncontestable facts to prove my case, I am coming from a position of some experience. (If you want a little more authority, chat with the storekeeper at one of the dedicated anime-shops in Manhattan or Boston. Ask her if internet fansubs are cutting into business!)
Maybe if you walked around a college dorm hall and compare how many students download fansubs versus actually buying legal DVDs, you could learn something. My position isn't a secret; it's pretty self-evident when you get in with the target population.
had it not been for the work of fansubbers making Anime in general accessible to Americans over then past 20 years'
And since the events of 20 years ago have zero bearing on whether or not today's internet fansub releases are helpful or harmful, you haven't answered the question at all. (Since you're not paying attention, I remind you that my starting post already acknowledged that 20 years ago fansubs promoted international anime appreciation, but the industry doesn't need that kind of help today)
PS. It is a spelling error to capitalize "Anime" when it isn't at the beginning of a sentence. (Unless you're talking about an actual person or character named "Anime", which has happened, although it's very rare)
Actually, I'd say (without going to a dictionary, 'cause I'm lazy), that "decimate" means "to destroy all but 10% of its original size
Well yeah, you'd say that. And you'd be wrong. Because I do own a dictionary, and it does mean to kill exactly 1/10th. In fact, Roman legions were threatened that if they retreated from battle, the general would walk down the line and stab every 10th man to "decimate" the unit.
Not necessarily, I can tell you of about 10 series I'm waiting for a US release of so I can buy them and own a high quality copy as well as the DVD extras.
Like many of the responses I've got today, providing one counterexample where something didn't happen doesn't in any way prove that it can NEVER happen. It's hard to prove a negative, and tossing out example after example won't make it easier.
In fact it's unlikely I would have bought these if I hadn't seen them first.
IF that's true, and IF there are enough other people like that to make a substantial boost to sales, then fansubs are still not needed. The producers can easily authorize the release of 1-3 subtitled episodes on the internet as a way to promote and gauge interest.
These type of things are also quite rare. Big O's the only one I know of where more episodes were made because of popularity in the US.
They're not rare anymore. In fact they're planned up front, rather than as surprises after the first run ends, so you won't hear about it as much anymore. Regardless, fansubbers did release copies of Big-O's 2nd season.
ADV has helped pay for the production of some series, but they did that without fan input.
No. ADV pays attention to fan input for almost everything they decide to release. Or are you accusing them of being complete fools who can't even think to troll a few message-boards to keep the pulse of the audience?
You're either confused or misunderstanding the TV series here as well. There are two TV series based on Ghost in the Shell.
Or maybe I didn't want to launch into meaningless digressions into trivialities of Japanese trademark law. (I could go off about Trigun versus Trigun Maximum, for example, if anybody actually cared about details like that). I'm not confused at all. If you think I'm wrong, then you might not know exactly what "series" is defined as. ("series, n. things that come out one after another")
Knowing it would eventually be released is a silly condemnation of those who fansubbed it. Even though it's insanely popular here, there was no guarantee it would indeed be released.
It isn't silly at all. I can hardly imagine what combination of ignorance and stupidity would be needed to render a person unable to predict that GITS-SAC would have a USA DVD release after watching just one raw episode.
First you assume only children would be interested in Pokemon.
No. I assume they're all the audience that matters, or greater than 98%. I'm sure there are even some adults in Japan who watch Pokemon, and from an economic standpoint, they're freeloaders, since the advertising supporting the broadcast is irrelevant to their buying habits.
No. You cannot honestly add emphasis there, since that was my entire point! Repeating someone with underbars doesn't add anything.
The point is that: a) The commercial engin would never have even turned over had it not been for the fansubs
Nope. The question is whether or not fansubbing is helpful or harmful to anime companies, and your point (a) is irrelevant to this question.
b) If the fansubs disapear, all the anime* sites you can imagin wouldn't suffice
That's simply false.
Why am I going to the trouble of buying them? because I got hooked on the anime thanks to the fansubs
That does not compute. You can't possibly be buying discs just because you're hooked- if that were the case, then you could download fansubs, and be satisfied.
You must also have a level of guilt or emotional obiligation to pay for something you already have. That's commendable if true, but such generosity should not be assumed in the public at large.
One thing I've learned is that it is impossible to determine what stuff will get licensed
But both your examples support the position that stuff is quite likely to be licensed if there is much attractiveness.
So what is a Fansub group to do?
How about, obey federal laws? Just a thought!
Or, alternatively, they could make an honest guess about whether something will be licensed. For example, is there any real doubt that Fox Kids will eventually show Naruto? Not really, but fansubbers happily go along pretending that it's not totally obvious.
And, regarding Naruto, if it does get licensed, will anyone really be able to argue that the acquisition was promoted at all by the fansubs? That concept even fails the "say it with a straight face" test. Cartoon Network is aware of the show and merchanidising opportunities.
Even if they used popularity of fansubs to measure demand, 2-4 episodes would be enough for that purpose. Fansubbers who keep working to episode 50 and beyond must understand that the point of diminishing returns for "free advertisement" has long since passed.
You assert to know the truth, and that no one else knows the truth.
Nope. While I do happen do know the truth, many other people do as well. This includes not only 100% of the legal anime companies, and the governments and police departments of both the USA and Japan, but also many fansubbers. In fact, I even think that YOU know the truth!
My suspicion is that you know this, but prefer to deny it, so you can go on enjoying fansubs without pangs of guilt.
So, not only are you wrong, but you are being an asshole about it.
You've got a lot to learn about how insults work. I won't explain it to you, though- that'd kill the delicious irony.
Since we're apparently talking about an American company,
Since you apparently invent alleged context out of thin air, it's painful for me to continue talking with you.
By that logic, since any asshole can go buy a Porsche Boxster (or, God forbid, a Cayenne), then all Porsches must be available?
Um no, neither that sentence, nor the rest of your post, has any approximate resembelance to logic or rationality. Most importantly, you seem oblivious of the fact that non-absolute positions (which acknowledge grey areas, like mine) are inherently stronger than absolutist ones.
However, I am very curious about one thing:
Once you develop an interest in the stuff that isn't US distro, you get to run over to Japan and buy some DVDs at $40/ea + $20s/h
What might some of those titles be? And no ancient stuff, please- give me names from this decade.
Looking at the program listings for the USA's Cartoon Network, I see several anime upcoming: Cowboy Bebob, Inu Yasha, Lost Exile, Wolf's Rain, Ghost In The Shell (I presume that anything they broadcast will also have DVD sales shortly).
And, a quick trip to a bittorrent site tells me that each of those is still accessible as fansubs. (And also that fansubs are distributed intermingled with DVD-rips of commercially-subtitled USA releases). Can you dispute that evidence? Because it's really all I need to show harm.
For the last time: the existence of occasional non-harmful fansubbers doesn't negate all the others.
Without fansubbers, no anime would be released in the USA.
If you believe something so stupid, it's understandable how you can come to stupid conclusions.
I just wish I could see you on television, telling a reporter with a straight face: "Ghost In The Shell: SAC would never have been released in the USA unless fansubbers had released it on the internet first. Even though there was enormous global demand from the first time the pre-production was even announced, there would've been no USA DVD or TV releases without fansubs blazing the trail".
Because that's a subset of what you just claimed....
Until the fansubbers were well established and started getting US distribution licenses (ADV films was started by fansubbers), the studio had no interest in US distribution.
True, but irrelevant. Whether or not fansubs helped to increase anime's popularity back in 1993 before Dragonball and Sailormoon where televised in the USA doesn't effect whether or not they help the industry at all today.
And to any honest observer, it should be an easy question: anime DVDs are in so many Blockbusters, anime episodes are on Cartoon Network each night, anime websites review new shows in Japan the day they air: anime-awareness in the English-speaking world is as high as it's going to go. There is no longer any need for fansubbers to promote demand, the authorized corporate advertisers and independent media can do this fine on their own.
So, one example of fansubbers not acting solely in the interest of an animation studio suddenly proves your point
Yes, it does. Even though I really could have many more than 1 example. You need to understand how absolute arguments work: when I say a rate is non-zero, and others claim the rate is zero, then I'm the one who proves herself right with only one example. Proving the negative is a lot harder!
your point (whatever that is)?
You can go back and read it if you like. But since you're too lazy, I'll reproduce it here: "It's easy to argue that fansubs reduce the sales of eventual anime releases in the USA"
They were acting according to the existing agreement
No they weren't. There was no "agreement" there, since by definition, an "agreement" is the fruit of discussion between at least two groups. The fansubber's code ("Don't distribute once it's been licensed") was something fansubbers created on their own, without consultation with anime companies, in the hopes of making themselves less attractive towards litigation.
They aren't just trying to promote anime to the general public
Quite true- and that's why fansubs hurt sales. The only way one can argue that fansubs help sales is to say they promote awareness leading to more paying customers later.
- they are trying to get at something that isn't widely available, which any collector can understand.
Which shows that they're hurting sales, at least by a tiny amount. After all, some small percentage of the viewers of fansubs might instead buy the $70 Japanese-only DVDs and then hire a translator for their own local use.
they are trying to get at something that isn't widely available
Hey, the 20th century called- they want their global-media attitudes back! The very suggestion that anime isn't widely available to viewers in the USA is ludicrous. Only a small fraction of fansub distribution goes to shows that aren't a absolute lock to get a legal USA release within 2 years.
Maybe there do exist some shows with zero commercial potential in the USA, which are yet popular enough to attract a fansubber or two. But, just because some few fansubbers aren't harmful doesn't absolve all of them.
Wrong. In fact it is the opposite. The fansubs provide free publicity among interest groups so that when it is released, the sales are greater than if there had been no fansubs.
Wrong. As I already explained with the excellent example of "Ghost In The Shell", the days when anime was a low-profile niche interest have long since passed. The very idea that Ghost In The Shell was brought to DVD and TV in the USA because it was fansubbed is laughable on the face.
Probably it was true once that fansubbing build up audience demand for later legal releases. But it's time to move on up into the 21st century: anime awareness is as high as it's going to get. Fansubs no longer make any meaningful increase in awareness, since there's no where left to grow. The only effect they have left is satisfying demand, partly from viewers who won't care enough to buy the DVDs later.
Rzbx, you do not even understand what's going on. I already explained this twice, so here's your 3rd and final chance to pick it up:
2. In 8 seconds of work, I wrote a single sentence which argued that fansubs hurt sales.
3. Anything I can do in just 8 seconds is easy.
4. Therefore, NeoSkandranon was wrong. I have personally and scientifically proved that it is not hard to argue fansubs hurt sales
Since you're confused, you think the truth of an argument is the same thing as the ease with which I composed it. What I have unimpeachibly proved is that the argument is easy to make. Whether the argument is right or wrong is an entirely separate question from how easy it is to state (and one that I'll address below, albeit incompletely).
Here is a simple argument. The exposure provided by the "fansubs" created a market that would have been more difficult to enter otherwise and most likely cost far more to create. Perhaps you have no knowledge of pirates in the world of ideas
Yes, that is indeed a simple argument. It's also a different argument, and its truth or falsehood is independent of the veracity of the earlier claim. We can consider this one too, if you insist (although I don't feel like getting into it here and now).
I will say a few words on the central argument, though: "Do fansubs reduce the profits of anime companies?"
Fact: Fansubbers don't only write subtitle files, they also normally overlay them onto raw video and distribute the whole thing as a package.
Fact: Fansubbers don't stop at 30% or 50% or 75% through a series, they tend to go right to the end. (A quick search just showed me that fansubbers have just released their 129th episode of a popular series about an elastic pirate)
Fact: Even if a fansub group "halts distribution" of a series that has been licensed, they cannot get it off of Kazaa and bittorrent.
Fact: Anime is highly popular in the USA today. Book chains like Barnes & Noble have shelves of manga, 5 anime series are broadcast on Fox and Cartoon Network every day, and websites like animeondvd.com, animenfo.com, animefu.com, and almost every anime*.com you could name are providing a solid stream of consumer hype.
Fact: A lot of televised anime is story-driven, with plot twists and linearity.
Fact: A lot of televised anime is produced inexpensively, with graphic quality that's adequate, but not outstanding.
Taking all those facts together, it appears that the amount by which fansubs increase revenue by building up anticipation is less than the amount by which they reduce it by undercutting sales of already-viewed episodes. Can I absolutely prove that? Of course not. I also can't prove that more than 75% of USAins drink alcohol socially, or even that George W. Bush is the national president! (For all I know, he's died in the past 15 seconds) But with availible facts in hand, the most sensible conclusion is that fansubs hurt profits.
A final note: If fansubbers would restrain themselves to only doing the first 3 episodes, or 25% of a series (whichever is less), then the argument that they're only working to build up demand for an eventual USA release would have a lot more credibility.
Wrong. This is simple 2x2 combinatorics, but you listed only 3 of the 4 outcomes... and "If a consumer acquires two" is a ludicrous starting point anyhow.
Again, it's perfectly possible to make a profit out of media which most people have already seen.
Is it? Well, good for me that I never claimed fansubs completely and utterly obilterate any possibility of making even $1 of profit. Since I only said that they reduce the profit potential, and not entirely destroy it, I'm in the clear. My specific words were "cut into sales".
You're employing George W. Bush-style logic:
This technique is quite similar to "strawmanning".
Again, it's perfectly possible to make a profit out of media which most people have already seen. Ask Lucas.
Stop with the Lucas example. It's hardly relevant. He re-released Star Wars after twenty years, by which time the old VHS copies were just about disintegrating.
Furthermore, he introduced substantial all-new content.
Furthermore, it wasn't legal for owners of those VHS tapes to give copies to new viewers who've been born in those 20 years. (Whereas with anime fansubs, re-distributing copies of a fansub is every bit as legal as it was to acquire initially- that is, 0% legal)
Furthermore, suppose that Lucas hadn't made any VHS release of Star Wars before the DVDs came out- the DVD sales would probably have been higher if they weren't competing against existing VHS.
Comparing fragile physical media to infintely perfectly replicable digital files doesn't work. Nor does comparing a remastered, enhanced version of a generation-defining cinematic masterpiece with a 26-episode plot-driven shojo love story.
When I do see a white one, all of a sudden all crows are white.
Well, if you're that stupid, then you've got some major cognitive problems, I guess. (Apparently very similar to how the USA's president can only discern things in black-or-white, ignoring the possibility of grays or mixtures)
Or, where you trying to make a silly analogy against my argument? That might work if I had claimed fansubs totally annihilate any chance of anime companies profiting in the USA.
Good thing I didn't say that, then. What we did say is they reduce the revenue potential. And they do.
The profit damage of fansubs isn't 100%, but it isn't 0% either. It's somewhere in between, which means I'm right.
How do you think the American public knows of these anime?
A little thing called the internets. You might have heard of it.
Oh, and let me shoot that one back at you: "How do you think the American public knows of these fansubs?" People who know they like anime can go searching for fansubs. People who might like anime, but haven't heard of it, won't learn of it from fansubs... they won't stumble onto a distribution place unless a friend points it out to them- and in that case, the friend could just as easily lend a (legal) DVD.
(Or, you could argue that a person randomly downloading from Kazaa might stumble on anime that way. But in that case, it could just as well be a DVD rip with subtitles, and not a fansub job)
For now I will stop shooting holes in your story.
You haven't contradicted me at all, yet. I already stipulated that, starting in the 1980s, fansubbers nourished the audience for anime in the USA. But that was a long time ago- even if fansubbers were a jumpstart to international anime viewership, the commercial engine is running on its own by now. US fans can see the same promotional materials the Japanese viewers do.
AC: Why doesn't someone just once TRY showing a kid's anime subtitled and see how it does, instead of just asuming all kids are to stupid to read?
You're right, there are probably some kids that are interested enough in a show to watch it subtitled. (You could even claim to their parents that it's educational, because it provides a tiny fraction of foreign-language education).
However, childrens' cartoons means television, and television in the USA means English (or Spanish, on special channels). No broadcaster will put on a show their audience can't auditorally comprehend, at least in the next 10 years.
That's why NO film company has ever released a DVD of a film that's already been out on VHS.
Congratulations, you've almost reached the intellectual achievement of George W. Bush. Maybe you too can become President someday!
Your logic makes as much sense as claiming that a bullet can't kill someone, because some soldiers have been known to shoot an enemy even though he already shot him just seconds ago.
You can not prove this.
No, I just proved it. By example.
NeoSkandranon claimed it was "hard to argue". I produced a cogent argument in less than 8 seconds of effort, which demonstrates conclusively that it's easy to argue.
Furthermore, if I had to prove not only that the argument was easy to write, but that it's substance is correct, the New York times this weekend interviewed people who download anime heavily, in preference to buying DVDs (that article is already in another slashdot story)
But I know it's pirating and don't try to pretend it's anything else.
Uh no, it's not pirating. The definition of piracy, both legally and in common use, is a violent crime committed on or near the ocean.
It's incredibly rare for the Japanese mafia to intercept a container ship and steal crates of anime DVDs. But if they do, and you buy one of them, then and only then can you consider yourself a pirate.
a different style doesn't mean it isn't a cartoon.
Language purists know that "cartoon" means "Cariature tune", and is only one of many kinds of animation. For example, the actor Jim Carey is often described as behaving "cartoonishly"- and it doesn't mean he was drawn on paper. The word "cartoon" has connotations of a flippant attitude and a lightweight storyline, aspects universal to American-produced "cartoons", but not nearly as prevalent in anime.
Because the USA has gone for so many decades without producing any popular animations which weren't also cartoons, speakers today are unable to find words aside from "cartoon" to refer to non-photographic animations.
(Of course, those are the same people who know that "decimate" means to destroy only 10% of the subject, and that a tsunami isn't a tradegy, because tradegies are always the victim's own fault...)
Cowboy Bebop is the classic example of a very good dub.
No it isn't. My ears were bleeding after only 20 seconds of Teddy Bomber...
It's not only that they did a bad job, but they were working under impossible constraints. One simply cannot construct believable English dialog between two tough-guy bounty hunters who call each other "Spike" and "Jet"... it just doesn't work. To Japanese ears, those words are meaningless sounds appropriate for foreign names- but in English, they are nouns from the dictionary, and it comes off silly to use them as given names.