Throughout the western world the board of directors of a publicly traded company are required to obey the (legal) wishes of the majority of the shareholders, it's not hard to guess what people are wishing for when they invest in the stock market.
If you don't like the behaviour of company X then don't invest in the shares or purchase their products - the problem is that if you have superanuation or a pension fund then you probably have already invested in company X and if company X has a monopoly on the food/water supply it's kinda hard to avoid the product.
The thing I like to pick on is their attempts to patent existing traits that have been used for generations in places like India, ect, but what would be really entertaining is watching them try to drag these "pirates" into court.
I agree that the guy in all probability bred seeds from plants that surived in non-cultivated areas where he sprayed and he did this with full knowledge of what he was doing. However it seems to me that the judgement side-stepped intention as irrelevant. The way I read it (ok skim it) is that the undisputed fact the patented gene was found in the plants was enough to demonstrate infringement because he had "used" the gene./IANAL
Get a grip mate, I am not even from the US and the remark was "tounge in cheek". The rest of your reply looks like a phycological phenomena called "projection".
"George Bush put 200,000 boots on the ground to try and bring about democracy in a severely troubled part of the world."
What is frightening to me as a non-american is that some americans still belive that "mom and apple pie" bullshit. Contrary to your second ammendment, "freedom" is not delivered from the barrel of a gun, it is a state of mind.
As far as economics is concerned the gazzilion dollar debt he has generated has created a "window of oportunity" for China to take the place of the US as the world's economic muscle man.
Funny, I can't see where the GP is "defending the Democrats" but I can see the factual error he is alluding to. OTOH: I think you are spot on with your "special interest" comment.
Who are you with and for how long have you been using them?
I'm asking because Optus keeps sending me two different bills for a single landline that I didn't want in the first place but "had to have" for the DSL connection. The Indian woman on their help desk also seems incapable of sorting out the random number generator they euphemistically call a "billing system". I would like nothing better than to parcel up the last 12 months of paperwork and send it back to them via registered mail with a (preferably Indian) bank cheque for the final bill burried somewhere in between the pages.
The irony is that I went with Optus to avoid problems with Telstra's crappy service.
So what are those poles with wires on, what are those odd buildings that look like radio link exchanges, what are those towers with reapeaters at the top, and is that Dr. Who's tardis or a $1M public phone-box servicing a dozen people in the middle of nowhere? The phone companies here train people in bush survival and then send them off in a 4WD for a week at a time to keep things running, coverage in the interior (or anywhere else for that matter) is determined by roads (if you can call them that).
Even in the early 80's when I lived on a sawmill that was a ~100k drive to the nearest town, we had a wire running ~30km from the highway to the mill, the only public infrastructure at the mill was a phone box - shit even the mail man would only come twice a week and he had a "captive market" for the milk, bread, smokes, ect that he sold out of his truck. The mill BTW was at a place called Combienbar, it is now a ghost town in the middle of a national park, it can be found with google Earth mainly because it has a automatic weather station that still operates.
The reason for this bizzare state of affairs is that until the 90's the ONLY phone company was a state run monopoly that until the 70's was part of the post ofiice. People out in the sticks were told by their local politcian that they could have the same service as townies. When privitzation and cable came along we had the ludicrous situation of two phone companies following each other around and stringing up two netwoks in exactly the same streets. The govt still owns 51% of Telstra and still tells the bush-bunnys they are entitled to a phone under "universal service obligations", however these days it is actually quite feasable if you don't insist on copper.
"Raw density numbers (0.3/sq km) are deceiving."
Yes I got it wrong, the raw number is 3.0/sq km and we could argue stats untill hell freezes over.
I agree with your price/performance assesment and I will take your word for the comparison against the US. However it was not my intention to "brag" about our system, the point I was trying to make is that a sparse population density is not by itself a hinderance to choice.
Population density does have a discernable impact on price/performance but it is only one of many variables.
Disclaimer(s):
1. I screwed up the math in my original post, Oz has ~3.0ppl/sq.km. and is a tenth of the density of the US not 1/100th, but the point is still valid.
2. I spent most of the 90's as the technical lead on Telstra's nation wide work dispatch system and have no illusions as to the degree of politics involved in all this.
Pakistan "came in from the cold" (they have always been US allies?) because they obtained nukes and the means to deliver them.
You keep telling me what my original point was but you still don't get it so I will repeat it:
"The treatment Hamas has recieved from the EU & US clearly demonstrates what western leaders think about the spread of democracy. They don't mearly fail to recognise "the right of Hamas to exist" they actively seek to destroy it..."
Your failure to look past the labels "terrorist" and "democracy" has lead you into a confused rant about Nazi's and the EU. PEOPLE are arseholes to other PEOPLE regardless of the colour of their skin, the charm of their religion, or any other label they wear or have placed apon them by others.
"google for..."
Fuck off, if you have a point to make then YOU do the googling and provide a link.
The UNSC has saved us all from nuclear holocaust, but at the same time it is responsibe for much of the strife we continue to see in every corner of the globe. It is trully a "double edge sword".
"Realpolitik is the guiding principle for every country and they all lie about it."
If by Realpolitik you mean the unprincipled pursuit of power & greed, then yes that is exactly what I have been saying all along. Yet you still insist that it's ok for Isreal to collectively punish several million impoverished Palesinians because voting for Hamas is support for "terrorists"?
Finally, read my sig and contemplate which cage you are living in.
"At times, I wonder if the "spread out America" card gets played a bit too much."
The US has ~31 people per sq km, Australia is 1/100th the density with ~0.3 people per sq km, yet 97% of the population have a choice of service providers. The reason for this is that the copper network owners are required by law to lease their lines to competitors at "wholesale" prices, the leasing rules are a similar concept to what google is proposing for the spectrum auction.
You have totally missed the point again and continue to put words in my mouth. I am not "defending Hamas" I am putting forward FACTS that are not often heard in the West.
"Your claim was debatable"
So go ahead and debate it with facts and sources instead of making up shit that you think proves whatever point you are rambling on about.
"it seemed to be some personal insults"
Look back at the thread, you are the one who brought insults to the "debate".
"entertaining troll"
How is the fact that both Iran and Israel use denial of genocide for political propoganda a troll?
Face it, you are the "racists", you are incapable of seeing both sides of the story without "taking sides" and that my friend is why the world is so fucked up.
So they go somewhere else, like I said "he will kill it" (and then go and buy/subvert whatever else pops up). I also fail to see how such massive sites can exist without some sort of coporate structure behind it to pay for the bandwidth, storage, code monkeys, etc.
I have no interest in MySpace except for the fact it is a very succesfull site, as for YouTube there are only so many ways you can watch someone have mentos coming out of their nose before it becomes as boring as dog-shit, this is the kind of stuff I look for, I'm not a micro-biologist but the more I learn about what is going on in that short clip the more trully awe inspiring it becomes.
"Hamas use rockets to target civilians, which is active terrorism."
Israel regularly fire hellfire missles into the most densley populated area on earth, Israeli snipers have shot many reporters and even school children sitting at their desk, Israeli armoured bulldozers are used for collective punishment or simply clear and steal the land for new settlements, sewerage, water and electrical infrastructure is deliberately destroyed with explosives, shit they even used tanks to rob a palestinian bank and demolish a local zoo while the animals were still in their cages - state sponsored terrorisim or war crimes, take your pick.
Hamas use antisemitic propaganda.
And....? Everybody in international politics uses anti-"the other guy" propoganda, what's the moral difference between Iran denying the holocaust and Israel denying a different 20th century genocide? - Don't answer, it's a trick question - they are both playing politics. Yes the holocaust was beyond doubt the most highly organised example of hatred seen in the 20th centrury but what has that got to do with Israel creating an open air jail for several million people just because they want to keep the demographics of their "jewish state"..well..jewish? (Before you answer by accusing me of also being an anti-semitic: I have both jewish and muslim friends.)
"When some Austrian nuts was in the government, Austria were isolated."
And....? If you read my post I said the same strategy has been used over and over again, also which particular "Austrian nuts" were you thinking of?
"Let us see..."
Leave me out of it, the comment that follows that quote reads like a cryptic crossword - if you have something to say then say it in plain english instead of beating around the bush so much that it devolves into gibberish.
"You have realized that all countries have double standards in their foreign policy...."
At least you understood the last line of my post.
"....and lie about it?"
Lie about what? - I agree with that statement...oh look, is that your strawman I see going up in flames? OTOH: If you think I am factually incorrect please point out where and state your sources without calling me a liar.
"(-: You are a bit slow or quite young, aren't you?:-)"
I forgive your crude attempts at insulting me because english is obviously not your strong point, and at 48 I'm probably old enough to be your farther.
"Sure, it was even worse during the Cold War."
Like I said I am 48 and lived thru vietnam, the bay city rollers, and most of the cold war including the duck-and-cover exercises in a 1960's primary school. The basic "modus operandi" hasn't changed a bit - all these bullshit wars and tin-pot dictators are simply proxies so that the veto-weilding members of the UNSC don't have to fight each other directly. Think about it and read up on why the UNSC was created in the first place, if I'm wrong then why would the CIA train OBL in the art of "creative chaos", why would the west supply Saddam with fighter jets?
The only reason Hamas has been sent to coventry, despite being elected by a "landslide" that was judged "fair and open" by the UN and other observers, is that Hamas doesn't have a veto-weiling sponser in the UNSC. The isolation certainly can't be because they are "terrorists" since the west has far more objectionable "friends". It seems to me that Hamas was supposed to dissapear into obscurity after the popular vote but since they inconvienently won in a democratic landslide the UNSC have cut them off from the outside world and ignored the consequences for a couple of million civilians. I'm betting they will continue to do so until the palestinians do as they are
Here in Oz they go by the name ARIA, they are not a great deal different to the US version. The laws are also just as fubar'd as in the US - just ask the lawyer in Melbourne who has a patent on the wheel.
Fortunately the PBS was quarantined from the free trade agreement so we still have reasonable prices for prescription drugs, however everything else covered by IP laws is in the process of being "harmonised with the US" with Ruddock leading the charge ( For non-aussies: Ruddock is our Attorney General and all round slime bag ).
You are telling this to the guy who built his considerable empire using computers to rip the guts out of the old fleet street printing industry? The guy who has Bush kissing one cheek of his arse and Blair kissing the other while Clinton gives him a blow job? Rupert only ever buys something if it can serve him financially or politically, if myspace fails to deliver the "next generation" he will kill it.
"Traditional media just can't compete."
I don't think he cares what type of media you use nor what you use it for, his main concern is controling the supply chain from producer to consumer.
"I guess what I'm trying to say is that the populace can demand all the change it wants, but there are many other parties who have a keen interest in maintaining the status quo."
The treatment Hamas has recieved from the EU & US clearly demonstrates what western leaders think about the spread of democracy. They don't mearly fail to recognise "the right of Hamas to exist" they actively seek to destroy it, the US has recently gone so far as to arm and train Fatah militants in order to maintain the status quo via the good ol' divide and conquer routine.
The odd thing is that Hamas has kept it's word and has not used suicide bombers for over 3 years (yes, they stopped BEFORE they were elected by ~70% of the popular vote), this self-imposed "restraint" is despite the fact many of it's elected officials have been assasinated or kidnapped by Isreal during the last 3yrs. Even more curioius is the fact that the suicide bombers during that time have come from the Fatah group, the same group that the US have recently armed and trained to fight Hamas.
Just to remain on topic you can see the same strategy in Africa, during the 70's-80's the SLA were considered an "evil" in the heart of Africa, apparently now that China has control over Sudan's oil,...err...I mean....influence over Sudan's rulers...., the SLA are the "good guys" who require our assistance to protect their ancestral homeland.
Of course the prime example of hypocricy in our time is the fact that - 25yrs ago OBL & Saddam were both "good guys" fighting the commies with our "generous" financial and political support. I could rant forever with similar examples, $2B worth of attack choppers donated to Burma's nut-job rulers in '97 anyone?/rant
Disclaimer: None of this makes "the other side's" actions any better, but if anyone thinks I have my facts about Hamas all fucked up, read this, and double check the information for yourself.
Of course the shareholders dictate to the board, you just don't like the fact that the largest shareholders are usually other corporations. PEOPLE are arseholes to other PEOPLE when they are not emotionaly bound, the kid that spits on burgers at the drive-thru could one day run the company.
Slashdot Mirror
Throughout the western world the board of directors of a publicly traded company are required to obey the (legal) wishes of the majority of the shareholders, it's not hard to guess what people are wishing for when they invest in the stock market.
If you don't like the behaviour of company X then don't invest in the shares or purchase their products - the problem is that if you have superanuation or a pension fund then you probably have already invested in company X and if company X has a monopoly on the food/water supply it's kinda hard to avoid the product.
The thing I like to pick on is their attempts to patent existing traits that have been used for generations in places like India, ect, but what would be really entertaining is watching them try to drag these "pirates" into court.
I agree that the guy in all probability bred seeds from plants that surived in non-cultivated areas where he sprayed and he did this with full knowledge of what he was doing. However it seems to me that the judgement side-stepped intention as irrelevant. The way I read it (ok skim it) is that the undisputed fact the patented gene was found in the plants was enough to demonstrate infringement because he had "used" the gene. /IANAL
Thanks, that was I point I was trying to make - I should have left the 2nd out of it.
Get a grip mate, I am not even from the US and the remark was "tounge in cheek". The rest of your reply looks like a phycological phenomena called "projection".
"George Bush put 200,000 boots on the ground to try and bring about democracy in a severely troubled part of the world."
What is frightening to me as a non-american is that some americans still belive that "mom and apple pie" bullshit. Contrary to your second ammendment, "freedom" is not delivered from the barrel of a gun, it is a state of mind.
As far as economics is concerned the gazzilion dollar debt he has generated has created a "window of oportunity" for China to take the place of the US as the world's economic muscle man.
"Only because it's [the word "evil"] been overused by the Left."
I don't know, I am still trying to figure out what the term "axis of evil" means and who the "evil-doers" are.
Thanks.
Funny, I can't see where the GP is "defending the Democrats" but I can see the factual error he is alluding to. OTOH: I think you are spot on with your "special interest" comment.
Who are you with and for how long have you been using them?
I'm asking because Optus keeps sending me two different bills for a single landline that I didn't want in the first place but "had to have" for the DSL connection. The Indian woman on their help desk also seems incapable of sorting out the random number generator they euphemistically call a "billing system". I would like nothing better than to parcel up the last 12 months of paperwork and send it back to them via registered mail with a (preferably Indian) bank cheque for the final bill burried somewhere in between the pages.
The irony is that I went with Optus to avoid problems with Telstra's crappy service.
"The interior is empty"
So what are those poles with wires on, what are those odd buildings that look like radio link exchanges, what are those towers with reapeaters at the top, and is that Dr. Who's tardis or a $1M public phone-box servicing a dozen people in the middle of nowhere? The phone companies here train people in bush survival and then send them off in a 4WD for a week at a time to keep things running, coverage in the interior (or anywhere else for that matter) is determined by roads (if you can call them that).
Even in the early 80's when I lived on a sawmill that was a ~100k drive to the nearest town, we had a wire running ~30km from the highway to the mill, the only public infrastructure at the mill was a phone box - shit even the mail man would only come twice a week and he had a "captive market" for the milk, bread, smokes, ect that he sold out of his truck. The mill BTW was at a place called Combienbar, it is now a ghost town in the middle of a national park, it can be found with google Earth mainly because it has a automatic weather station that still operates.
The reason for this bizzare state of affairs is that until the 90's the ONLY phone company was a state run monopoly that until the 70's was part of the post ofiice. People out in the sticks were told by their local politcian that they could have the same service as townies. When privitzation and cable came along we had the ludicrous situation of two phone companies following each other around and stringing up two netwoks in exactly the same streets. The govt still owns 51% of Telstra and still tells the bush-bunnys they are entitled to a phone under "universal service obligations", however these days it is actually quite feasable if you don't insist on copper.
"Raw density numbers (0.3/sq km) are deceiving."
Yes I got it wrong, the raw number is 3.0/sq km and we could argue stats untill hell freezes over.
I agree with your price/performance assesment and I will take your word for the comparison against the US. However it was not my intention to "brag" about our system, the point I was trying to make is that a sparse population density is not by itself a hinderance to choice.
Population density does have a discernable impact on price/performance but it is only one of many variables.
Disclaimer(s):
1. I screwed up the math in my original post, Oz has ~3.0ppl/sq.km. and is a tenth of the density of the US not 1/100th, but the point is still valid.
2. I spent most of the 90's as the technical lead on Telstra's nation wide work dispatch system and have no illusions as to the degree of politics involved in all this.
You keep telling me what my original point was but you still don't get it so I will repeat it:
Your failure to look past the labels "terrorist" and "democracy" has lead you into a confused rant about Nazi's and the EU. PEOPLE are arseholes to other PEOPLE regardless of the colour of their skin, the charm of their religion, or any other label they wear or have placed apon them by others.
"google for..."
Fuck off, if you have a point to make then YOU do the googling and provide a link.
The UNSC has saved us all from nuclear holocaust, but at the same time it is responsibe for much of the strife we continue to see in every corner of the globe. It is trully a "double edge sword".
"Realpolitik is the guiding principle for every country and they all lie about it."
If by Realpolitik you mean the unprincipled pursuit of power & greed, then yes that is exactly what I have been saying all along. Yet you still insist that it's ok for Isreal to collectively punish several million impoverished Palesinians because voting for Hamas is support for "terrorists"?
Finally, read my sig and contemplate which cage you are living in.
"At times, I wonder if the "spread out America" card gets played a bit too much."
The US has ~31 people per sq km, Australia is 1/100th the density with ~0.3 people per sq km, yet 97% of the population have a choice of service providers. The reason for this is that the copper network owners are required by law to lease their lines to competitors at "wholesale" prices, the leasing rules are a similar concept to what google is proposing for the spectrum auction.
Seems "Troll" translates to "humour impaired moderator".
You have totally missed the point again and continue to put words in my mouth. I am not "defending Hamas" I am putting forward FACTS that are not often heard in the West.
"Your claim was debatable"
So go ahead and debate it with facts and sources instead of making up shit that you think proves whatever point you are rambling on about.
"it seemed to be some personal insults"
Look back at the thread, you are the one who brought insults to the "debate".
"entertaining troll"
How is the fact that both Iran and Israel use denial of genocide for political propoganda a troll?
Face it, you are the "racists", you are incapable of seeing both sides of the story without "taking sides" and that my friend is why the world is so fucked up.
Divorce court?
So they go somewhere else, like I said "he will kill it" (and then go and buy/subvert whatever else pops up). I also fail to see how such massive sites can exist without some sort of coporate structure behind it to pay for the bandwidth, storage, code monkeys, etc.
I have no interest in MySpace except for the fact it is a very succesfull site, as for YouTube there are only so many ways you can watch someone have mentos coming out of their nose before it becomes as boring as dog-shit, this is the kind of stuff I look for, I'm not a micro-biologist but the more I learn about what is going on in that short clip the more trully awe inspiring it becomes.
"Hamas use rockets to target civilians, which is active terrorism."
:-)"
Israel regularly fire hellfire missles into the most densley populated area on earth, Israeli snipers have shot many reporters and even school children sitting at their desk, Israeli armoured bulldozers are used for collective punishment or simply clear and steal the land for new settlements, sewerage, water and electrical infrastructure is deliberately destroyed with explosives, shit they even used tanks to rob a palestinian bank and demolish a local zoo while the animals were still in their cages - state sponsored terrorisim or war crimes, take your pick.
Hamas use antisemitic propaganda.
And....? Everybody in international politics uses anti-"the other guy" propoganda, what's the moral difference between Iran denying the holocaust and Israel denying a different 20th century genocide? - Don't answer, it's a trick question - they are both playing politics. Yes the holocaust was beyond doubt the most highly organised example of hatred seen in the 20th centrury but what has that got to do with Israel creating an open air jail for several million people just because they want to keep the demographics of their "jewish state"..well..jewish? (Before you answer by accusing me of also being an anti-semitic: I have both jewish and muslim friends.)
"When some Austrian nuts was in the government, Austria were isolated."
And....? If you read my post I said the same strategy has been used over and over again, also which particular "Austrian nuts" were you thinking of?
"Let us see..."
Leave me out of it, the comment that follows that quote reads like a cryptic crossword - if you have something to say then say it in plain english instead of beating around the bush so much that it devolves into gibberish.
"You have realized that all countries have double standards in their foreign policy...."
At least you understood the last line of my post.
"....and lie about it?"
Lie about what? - I agree with that statement...oh look, is that your strawman I see going up in flames? OTOH: If you think I am factually incorrect please point out where and state your sources without calling me a liar.
"(-: You are a bit slow or quite young, aren't you?
I forgive your crude attempts at insulting me because english is obviously not your strong point, and at 48 I'm probably old enough to be your farther.
"Sure, it was even worse during the Cold War."
Like I said I am 48 and lived thru vietnam, the bay city rollers, and most of the cold war including the duck-and-cover exercises in a 1960's primary school. The basic "modus operandi" hasn't changed a bit - all these bullshit wars and tin-pot dictators are simply proxies so that the veto-weilding members of the UNSC don't have to fight each other directly. Think about it and read up on why the UNSC was created in the first place, if I'm wrong then why would the CIA train OBL in the art of "creative chaos", why would the west supply Saddam with fighter jets?
The only reason Hamas has been sent to coventry, despite being elected by a "landslide" that was judged "fair and open" by the UN and other observers, is that Hamas doesn't have a veto-weiling sponser in the UNSC. The isolation certainly can't be because they are "terrorists" since the west has far more objectionable "friends". It seems to me that Hamas was supposed to dissapear into obscurity after the popular vote but since they inconvienently won in a democratic landslide the UNSC have cut them off from the outside world and ignored the consequences for a couple of million civilians. I'm betting they will continue to do so until the palestinians do as they are
Here in Oz they go by the name ARIA, they are not a great deal different to the US version. The laws are also just as fubar'd as in the US - just ask the lawyer in Melbourne who has a patent on the wheel.
Fortunately the PBS was quarantined from the free trade agreement so we still have reasonable prices for prescription drugs, however everything else covered by IP laws is in the process of being "harmonised with the US" with Ruddock leading the charge ( For non-aussies: Ruddock is our Attorney General and all round slime bag ).
Whoosh...
I used to teach C programming on system V back in the early '90s, 16 terminals hanging off a 66Mhz 486.
"I think Murdoch is missing the point."
You are telling this to the guy who built his considerable empire using computers to rip the guts out of the old fleet street printing industry? The guy who has Bush kissing one cheek of his arse and Blair kissing the other while Clinton gives him a blow job? Rupert only ever buys something if it can serve him financially or politically, if myspace fails to deliver the "next generation" he will kill it.
"Traditional media just can't compete."
I don't think he cares what type of media you use nor what you use it for, his main concern is controling the supply chain from producer to consumer.
"I guess what I'm trying to say is that the populace can demand all the change it wants, but there are many other parties who have a keen interest in maintaining the status quo."
...err...I mean....influence over Sudan's rulers...., the SLA are the "good guys" who require our assistance to protect their ancestral homeland.
/rant
The treatment Hamas has recieved from the EU & US clearly demonstrates what western leaders think about the spread of democracy. They don't mearly fail to recognise "the right of Hamas to exist" they actively seek to destroy it, the US has recently gone so far as to arm and train Fatah militants in order to maintain the status quo via the good ol' divide and conquer routine.
The odd thing is that Hamas has kept it's word and has not used suicide bombers for over 3 years (yes, they stopped BEFORE they were elected by ~70% of the popular vote), this self-imposed "restraint" is despite the fact many of it's elected officials have been assasinated or kidnapped by Isreal during the last 3yrs. Even more curioius is the fact that the suicide bombers during that time have come from the Fatah group, the same group that the US have recently armed and trained to fight Hamas.
Just to remain on topic you can see the same strategy in Africa, during the 70's-80's the SLA were considered an "evil" in the heart of Africa, apparently now that China has control over Sudan's oil,
Of course the prime example of hypocricy in our time is the fact that - 25yrs ago OBL & Saddam were both "good guys" fighting the commies with our "generous" financial and political support. I could rant forever with similar examples, $2B worth of attack choppers donated to Burma's nut-job rulers in '97 anyone?
Disclaimer: None of this makes "the other side's" actions any better, but if anyone thinks I have my facts about Hamas all fucked up, read this, and double check the information for yourself.
Of course the shareholders dictate to the board, you just don't like the fact that the largest shareholders are usually other corporations. PEOPLE are arseholes to other PEOPLE when they are not emotionaly bound, the kid that spits on burgers at the drive-thru could one day run the company.