Africa - Offline And Waiting for the Web

The nytfeed provides us with an article about the current state of internet connectivity on the African continent. Only 4 percent of Africa's population has regular access to the internet, with most of those people living in North African countries, or the country of South Africa. This might seem like a market ripe for development, but the article explains that there are numerous difficulties involved getting an infrastructure project off the ground. "Africa's only connection to the network of computers and fiber optic cables that are the Internet's backbone is a $600 million undersea cable running from Portugal down the west coast of Africa. Built in 2002, the cable was supposed to provide cheaper and faster Web access, but so far that has not happened. Prices remain high because the national telecommunications linked to the cable maintain a monopoly over access, squeezing out potential competitors. And plans for a fiber optic cable along the East African coast have stalled over similar access issues. Most countries in Eastern Africa, like Rwanda, depend on slower satellite technology for Internet service." The good news is that, of course, progress is being made. Just ... slowly.

Comments

Worry not...

[Red Mage 13]

OLPC is already supporting Africa with all of the internet porn that it needs.

Re:Worry not...

[Anonymous Coward]

Jeez, how can it be a troll when the story is still on the /. front page?

http://hardware.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/07/ 21/1353241

Breaking News!

Slashdot mods smoking crack again.

Re:Worry not...

[Anonymous Coward]

It isn't politically correct to say, but, by any standard, the average black woman is not as attractive as a white women. Look at the black women that are considered attractive - they are all white skinned and have white features.

What do black men want ? WHITE pussy. That's why rape of white women by black men has always been a hot topic. White men know it and are worried about it. Only the fact that we had a racist society with white people in charge protected the white women.

Don Imus may be a jerk, but I think everyone really got upset because there was a grain of truth in what he said. Just like with Larry Summers, the president of Harvard, who merely implied that the issue of fewer women in science was something to BE THOUGHT ABOUT.

Not africa's biggest problem

[sokoban]

Yeah, the internet is one of the last things Africa needs.

I'd say that Social, Political, and Agricultural reforms are FAR more important to the average African than the good old WWW.

Africa is living proof that imposition of a foreign structure and hierarchy followed by throwing fists-full of aid money is not enough to improve the lives of a people.

Re:Not africa's biggest problem

[BeanThere]

Uh, the SAT3 fiber cable wasn't built with any aid money, it was built with tax income from a previously nationalised and now privatived telecomms utility using income from mainly businesses and residents in South Africa itself. Those businesses forked over for it - and continue to do so - because there's a genuine need for it, so get a clue.

Re:Not africa's biggest problem

[sentientbeing]

How are people to get all those things and other basic services organised if they cant even communicate with each other and the outside world?

The WWW isnt just iTunes and eBay.

Re:Not africa's biggest problem

[N3Roaster]

While I agree that there are bigger problems that need to be tackled, Internet access would be very useful for farmers growing commodity foods for export as it provides access to market information and allows them to make an informed decision about when to sell and for how much. Cheap, reliable Internet access also opens up marketing opportunities and the potential for more direct relationships where higher prices might also be had.

Re:Not africa's biggest problem

[ynososiduts]

That's what I think first when I see stories like these. How are you going to get internet penetration when many people can barely afford the basic needs of a human? Honestly, lets think about food, water, AIDS, and regular communication before we think of internet connections. I understand that the internet is of great use to a society, but all of that money that you would need to spend to set up and maintain a telecommunication infrastructure could be better used.

Re:Not africa's biggest problem

[timmarhy]

"nternet access would be very useful for farmers growing commodity foods for export"

RRRIGGHTTT..... they can't even grow enough food to feed themselfs so now you want them to export it?

Re:Not africa's biggest problem

[sumdumass]

I hear this argument all the time. And as a small farmer myself, I'm wondering why it is being made. You sell when your crops are ready or they deteriorate and spoil. That is unless your sophisticated enough to have some sort of storage facility. And the people with that kind of resources can afford to get satellite communications going whether it is the Internet or calling a brokerage house to get current rates. Then there is also the problem of getting the goods to market. About any place with good roads will have a way into a civilized area that you can get this information from. If your a slave to the weather and such, the Internet isn't going to help anything. You can get just as good of a weather report from shortwave radio as you can get from the Internet. And if you are good and remembering things, the Metar forecasts and readings are usually updated hourly.

Of course if your not producing food crops and raising something industrial, then your better off getting a contract the previous year before seeding the ground. And in this case, the Internet won't help you because your prices will be somewhat fixed. But fixed prices sure beet the hell out of not having someone to sell too.

Anything the internet can do for the farmer, a phone call can do too. They listen to crop reports and all already. They even get US and EU reports over the radio. Of course the radios down there aren't just AM and FM with DJs playing the top 40. They get shortwave and all the other bands too. The stuff the US and EU used to do until some channels became commercialized.

Re:Not africa's biggest problem

[N3Roaster]

Umm... They already are. Picking a few random African countries from the CIA World Fact Book, agriculture accounts for 60% of exports from Ethiopia, Niger is exporting onions and livestock, Cote d'Ivoire is one of the largest exporters of coffee, cocoa, and palm oil, and if you take a look at other African countries, you'll find many more examples where people are sensibly using their comparative advantage to grow products for export (and hard currency) and, if necessary, import other food stuffs. If these people are able to get better prices for what they export, they will be able to buy more of the food they would need to import.

Re:Not africa's biggest problem

[N3Roaster]

As I said before, I do agree that this is not the largest problem. Transportation infrastructure in rural areas is a big issue that would certainly be more important. As for crops deteriorating and spoiling, part of this depends on just what crops are being grown. Most of my exposure in this area is in coffee which, after processing, holds quite well in cheap warehouse space. I also agree with you regarding phone calls, but I have been to cooperatives in Ethiopia that had no clue how much money they would be getting sometimes because the communication infrastructure just wasn't there.

Re:Not africa's biggest problem

[timmarhy]

since when has the internet resulted in better prices for the seller? name me one industry that has taken off as a direct result of selling their goods on the internet? I just don't see any reason for your logic to work at all. your basicly saying, internets = good, and nothing more.

Re:Not africa's biggest problem

[LiquidCoooled]

Selling crap from your attic has turned from a pursuit of the hardy Sunday morning car booter into the daily antics of millions of bored housewives throughout the world.

Re:Not africa's biggest problem

[dhasenan]

Africa has oil, diamonds, and copper as some of its major resources.

Diamonds? De Beers owns most African diamond mines.

Copper? Zimbabwe sold off its copper mines recently because they were losing money. The price of copper has quadrupled in the last ten years. (And people are emigrating to Zimbabwe...)

Oil? Foreign companies own most African oil wells and pipelines. In some countries, these oil companies hire the military to defend the pipelines and wells. In some of these, the military has stolen the pipelines. In others, people steal high-pressure bolts from the pipelines, which is worse. The pipeline explodes; the thief dies; the oil leaks out; everyone loses. Things are better in the Ukraine, where an entire oil pipeline was stolen but functioning, and made certain individuals large amounts of money. At least there, someone profited.

What would happen if all foreign aid was removed from Africa for two years? The death toll would be in the hundreds of millions.

Kenya's economy is going up, slightly, though I have no idea how long that will last. Morocco and Egypt are stable, and South Africa's major concern at the moment is immigration.

So, why is it that only Mediterranean Africa and South Africa have any internet connectivity to speak of?

Re:Not africa's biggest problem

[alba7]

Well, to me a place without Internet is sub standard.
Like a shack with an outhouse.
I won't go there.
And I guess most people that ever enjoyed the comfort of cilization will neither.

Re:Not africa's biggest problem

[N3Roaster]

I see that your previous post has been modded flamebait and judging by your posting history, I am at this point probably just feeding a troll, but I will entertain one more reply as it is a good question. I would point to specialty coffee auctions such as Cup of Excellence, Q Auctions, and eCafe as rather high profile examples where the Internet has allowed better prices for the seller. Granted, these do not require Internet access in the countries of origin, however Internet access would have been greatly beneficial, particularly in that last example (eCafe) in communicating the results of these auctions to the growers. Had participating cooperatives in Ethiopia had the communications infrastructure to see just how well they had done in the first auction, they would have participated in the second. Better communication infrastructure may have also helped the logistical nightmare that plagued the second auction. In that case, the coffees were under the control of Sidama Union, whose member cooperatives took more than half of the auction total, yet they were refusing to release the coffee for export. Had the member cooperatives been able to learn that inaction on the part of the cooperative union was delaying a rather large final payment and had there been sufficient communications infrastructure to pressure the union, I believe this process would have been sped up considerably instead of requiring visits from three board members and eventually transferring control of these lots to Yirgacheffe Union (which did then release the coffee in a timely manner, though by that time the delay had been so great that an otherwise good program has been suspended until a way to prevent such an issue from recurring is found).

This is not necessarily just about selling over the Internet, and it should be clear by now that I see Internet access as part of the larger problem of communications infrastructure, however I believe there are numerous examples throughout the world where Internet access has provided significant economic benefits. If it were otherwise, why would the Internet have spread throughout the world?

Re:Not africa's biggest problem

[geekinaseat]

I hear that argument all of the time when people comment on various "Africa doesn't have sufficient xyz" type stories... and in this case I have to agree with you, I can't help but think that the figure of 96% of Africans who arn't connected to the web might be very similar to the amount of Africans living in severe poverty..... surely there are much more important things that these people need before we have to worry about the internet. Hell, go back ten years in the UK and not many people were on the net and it didn't do us much harm, some people argue that the internet has brought more harm that good infact (along the same lines as the TV argument) -not something I agree with personally but still. Lets keep things in perspective: provide the basics to as many people as possible and then start worrying about the luxuries.

Re:Not africa's biggest problem

[WIAKywbfatw]

Yeah, the internet is one of the last things Africa needs.

I'd say that Social, Political, and Agricultural reforms are FAR more important to the average African than the good old WWW.

Africa is living proof that imposition of a foreign structure and hierarchy followed by throwing fists-full of aid money is not enough to improve the lives of a people.

Interesting viewpoint. A few points immediately sprang to mind though:

Firstly, access to better information via the internet can play its part in improving social, political and agricultural conditions in Africa.

Granted, there are other problems, such as infrastructure, to overcome but that doesn't negate the benefits that internet connectivity could provide to developing world nations.

Secondly, the "imposition of a foreign structure and hierarchy followed by throwing fists-full of aid money" can work... in the right circumstances. West Germany after the Second World War is one example. Clearly today's Iraq isn't though.

The keys would seem to be honesty and acceptance: if you genuinely care about improving the situation on the ground and can convince people of your sincerity then you can make huge changes for the better. However, if your help is poisoned by political or economic rhetoric then you're doomed to failure and/or accusations of attempting to profit from the situation.

Forcing HIV/AIDs-related programmes to teach abstinence rather than educating them about the benefits of using a condom, even though you know that the abstinence message will fail but that condoms will save lives, because of religious pressure is crazy.

Similarly, pushing African mothers to use powdered baby milk rather than encouraging them to breastfeed, which is a healthier option, just to sell more of your product is exploitative at best.

Put another way, if developed nations really wants to help less fortunate nations then perhaps thinking about themselves and what's in it for them should disappear from the equation.

Lastly, Africa is a pretty big place. It's not homogenous, and what might be a problem in one place might have already been solved somewhere else. Anything that helps disseminate knowledge can only be a good thing, especially in rural areas.

Imagine how much and how quickly you can find help online when your PC's playing up compared to how little and how slowly you can find it offline. Now imagine that information on something more essential to your everyday life, like basic healthcare advice, how to repair a vital piece of machinery, or how to save a crop.

Even something as simple as knowing what the average shopper 10,000 miles away will pay for your produce could make a huge difference: knowing that might help you secure a fairer, more beneficial price for your harvest, which in turn could dramatically improve the standard of life for you and everybody around you.

The possibilities are limitless.

Re:Not africa's biggest problem

[lena_10326]

Honestly, lets think about food, water, AIDS, and regular communication before we think of internet connections

Communication is a basic need. The internet is not always used for chat rooms and games. Here are some basic need uses:

• Publishing: news, info, blogs, editorials, research, statistics, etc
• Political commentary and organization
• Directories of phone numbers, businesses, professionals, resumes, jobs, etc
• Maps and yellow pages
• Email, telephone, video conferencing
• E-Commerce & trading
• Government services, taxes, forms, etc
• Online courses: particularly useful in rural African towns
• Technical support for machinery, computers, software

Africa needs the internet.

Re:Not africa's biggest problem

[Anonymous Coward]

Copper? Zimbabwe sold off its copper mines recently because they were losing money. The price of copper has quadrupled in the last ten years. (And people are emigrating to Zimbabwe...) You must be thinking of some other country.

Zimbabwe had only one copper mine, it was not particularly good, and it was shut down, not sold off.

There is some talk of reopening the mine since copper prices are so high. However, it is hard to get investment in Zimbabwe because the government is corrupt, oppressive, and inept.

Also, there is mass migration out of Zimbabwe due to hyperinflation, food shortages, etc. Very few people are immigrating into Zimbabwe.

Re:Not africa's biggest problem

[timmarhy]

Ok so your argument is that the internet might afford them access to more market opertunities? ok i can agree on that. the internet might perhaps allow them to by pass corrupt local officals also, by selling direct to overseas consumers.

Re:Not africa's biggest problem

[Anonymous Coward]

[Posting anonymously because the dangers I describe below are real.]

I'd say that Social, Political, and Agricultural reforms are FAR more important to the average African than the good old WWW.

And how do you propose that the peoples of the African continent will achieve that without affordable communications?

Africa is living proof that imposition of a foreign structure and hierarchy followed by throwing fists-full of aid money is not enough to improve the lives of a people.

You're absolutely right about that, but let's be clear about who's keeping African down: It's us. Corporate interests have a really simple modus operandi in developing countries: Walk in, steal everything of value, optionally pay off whoever is willing to get along, and encourage all the others to go along - with guns, if necessary.

I'm watching the government of a certain European nation (they spit in my general direction, if you catch my drift) in the process of fighting telecoms market liberalisation in the place where I live. This is a Least Developed Country whose geography requires that communications improve in order for anything else to happen, but they're willing to pay off ministers of state (and worse) in order to protect their bottom line.

This means people die. Some people from an outer island had to carry a man suffering from abdominal problems through the jungle for 2 days because they couldn't contact a boat two hours' distance away. He barely made it to hospital on time. Had the phone system worked, they could have got him to the capital within 4 hours. That's just this week's example of an utterly broken system that is being forcibly imposed on the people of this country by the corporate creatures of their ex-colonial masters.

I applaud your analysis. I think it's spot on, but if you use it as an excuse to stop the aid money before putting limits on corporate power, then I suggest you just come over and shoot us all first. It'll be a lot less painful for everyone involved.

Re:Not africa's biggest problem

[bellorum]

The trouble is the foreign structure and hierarchy left. Lost its will.

Re:Not africa's biggest problem

[himurabattousai]

"Yeah, the internet is one of the last things Africa needs.

I'd say that Social, Political, and Agricultural reforms are FAR more important to the average African than the good old WWW.

Africa is living proof that imposition of a foreign structure and hierarchy followed by throwing fists-full of aid money is not enough to improve the lives of a people."

Interesting viewpoint. A few points immediately sprang to mind though:

Firstly, access to better information via the internet can play its part in improving social, political and agricultural conditions in Africa.

Yes, the internet can open people's eyes to how other people have it better: how they can live their lives mostly without fear of civil war, super-massive corruption, and the specter of starvation hanging overhead. Is that what will happen? Probably not. The internet is just as easily used for the exact opposite. Look at all the oppressive regimes who throttle it down to a shell of what it can, and should, be. Most of Africa is stuck centuries ago in terms of economic, social, and technological development. Where the governments hold "power," the internet would be used just as another tool to keep the citizens down. Where there really is no government as we know it, the people will fight even more because it will be that much easier to incite violence. Either way, more people will die. I know this may sound definitely un-PC, but as I said, it is already mostly a lawless (as we define rule of law) continent. The internet will just make it worse.

Secondly, the "imposition of a foreign structure and hierarchy followed by throwing fists-full of aid money" can work... in the right circumstances. West Germany after the Second World War is one example. Clearly today's Iraq isn't though.

There are no "right" circumstances for this, only better and worse circumstances. West Germany, post-World War Two, only worked because that society was quite similar to our own. It wasn't the "imposition of a foreign structure" as much as it was the re-establishment of what the people (somewhat) inadvertently gave away. Hitler wasn't appointed by divine right, holy succession, or whatever other excuse he could conjure. He was chosen by the people of his own country. In retrospect, not a wise choice, but that's a bit off-topic.

The people of Africa didn't choose to be colonized by the European powers. Their way of life was deemed by their conquerors to be immoral, heathenistic, uncivilized, or whatever else you wish to call it from the Europeans' point of view. It was replaced with something that was so different to the African people, they didn't really have the opportunity to come to terms with it. Of course, it doesn't help that the Europeans had no real interest in the welfare of their conquered subjects. They just wanted the cheap goods and labor. When they left, the African countries couldn't go back to what they were before, as things had changed too much. Nor could they become "civilized" (as the Europeans define that term), because they never were allowed to learn about "civilizaton." By default, they just replaced the Europeans with whomever could bully the best, which is exactly what they learned from the European conquerors. Who knows what African societies could have evolved into had they been allowed to advance on their own.

Interesting that you bring up Iraq. We have the same situation there that the African continent faced before. It's a shame that the President can't crack open a book, or he'd have known what happens when you impose a "foreign structure and hierarchy" on a people who have no need for or don't want it. He'd also know what happens when you hand out unlimited cash and advanced technology to people who don't know how to properly use it (sorry, un-PC, but true). The Europeans pillaged Africa once, and look at the havoc caused by what they left behind, politically and technologically

Re:Not africa's biggest problem

[crazypen]

(quote) "Anything the internet can do for the farmer, a phone call can do too. They listen to crop reports and all already. They even get US and EU reports over the radio. Of course the radios down there aren't just AM and FM with DJs playing the top 40. They get shortwave and all the other bands too. The stuff the US and EU used to do until some channels became commercialized." (quote) Try calling someone from remote areas or under developed areas in Africa. Good luck because the infrastructure is not there. In Many places you would be lucky to have electricity........ G'day

Re:Not africa's biggest problem

[sumdumass]

Somehow I doubt they would be getting the internet if the basic communications structure isn't there.

However, I'm betting there is a coop of some sorts that help with the warehousing of the coffee. In this situation, you can sort of bet at least someone involved has things somewhat arranged in so that they find the current prices and have some form of communications.

The internet is no immediate help to farmers that cannot be dealt with already. Or at least that is my impression to date. And I think this is especially true when you have a bunch of people who have been without fancy computers and communications. It will take longer to train them then it will to put phones and a decent library in.

Re:Not africa's biggest problem

[KingSkippus]

Damn, I must be going blind, because I don't see anywhere in the comment where he said anything about aid being used for the SAT3 fiber cable. I think he was talking about how billions in aid money haven't helped much in social, political, and agricultural reforms.

That's arguable, as is the importance of Internet access to Africa. I mean, after all, India is one of the most bitterly poor countries in the world, but their technical infrastructure has improved the lives of many people there and is bringing the country out of the third world and into a modernized society. Maybe Internet access in Africa will have similar results.

There are many problems that need to be addressed in Africa, and many ways to address those problems, each contributing to the overall progress in different and productive ways.

Re:Not africa's biggest problem

[sumdumass]

Try calling someone from remote areas or under developed areas in Africa. Good luck because the infrastructure is not there. In Many places you would be lucky to have electricity........ G'day

And a computer with the internet would fix that how? You would be doing a better service putting the telecomunications in first. Maybe at the same time. There are satellite phones already in use over there and there are cell towers going up all over the place last I heard.

Re:Not africa's biggest problem

[AmberBlackCat]

Africa is living proof that imposition of a foreign structure and hierarchy followed by throwing fists-full of aid money is not enough to improve the lives of a people.

That's about what messed it up in the first place, except the money was thrown a different direction.

Re:Not africa's biggest problem

[LehiNephi]

You're right. I'm actually in sub-saharan Africa for a month for work, and Internet connectivity is certainly not the highest priority. The village across the street from me now is constructed mostly of grass huts, with a few clay-brick buildings with corrugated steel roofs. There's no running water or electricity, let alone telephones or internet access. Most of the natives still live in small tribes, herd cattle and sheep, and practice subsistence farming. They plow their land with two cows and a plow.

What Africa needs more than internet access is a few things like, oh, say....

• Economic development opportunities for individuals (small businesses)
• Less corruption in the government (none of that money from the oil fields makes it down to benefit the common people)
• Opportunities for Education (see previous point about corruption)

Of course, there's also the small point about culture as well--the people here seem to be satisfied with their way of life. Yes, it could be better. But it's what they're used to. Thrusting millions and billions of dollars into the country hasn't done jack for it. Neither would Internet access at this point.

Re:Not africa's biggest problem

[nick5000]

This is not necessarily true. Oppressive governments in Africa survive by keeping their populations ignorant, poor, and, therefore, politically weak. Giving Africans access to the internet gives them the freedom to break out of their oppressive situation. The internet gives them access to the sum of human knowledge and allows them to communicate with the rest of the world, which empowers them not only intellectually but also politically.

For this reason, I'd say that aid money invested in the OLPC or the internet has a better long-term effect than money invested elsewhere.

Re:Not africa's biggest problem

[Uzik2]

AMEN!

Re:Not africa's biggest problem

[Cairnarvon]

The internet has a way of facilitating and speeding up social and political reforms. With that, the rest will follow.
Presumably.

If nothing else, internet access ought to make the logistics of it a bit easier to manage.

Re:Not africa's biggest problem

[denttford]

Yeah, the internet is one of the last things Africa needs.

I'd say that Social, Political, and Agricultural reforms are FAR more important to the average African than the good old WWW.

I do not mean to minimize any of the problems Africa faces. However, I think the printing press has had fair amount of success in effecting political and social change throughout history; how much more with its modern analogue when the cost of production approaches nil and the ability to post (for example) video of abuses is instantaneous and not easily controlled?

Re:Not africa's biggest problem

[Edward Kmett]

Last I checked with friends of mine who used to do this sort of thing, copper you put in the ground in large parts of Africa was being pulled back out just as fast and sold as scrap.

Makes a bit of a barrier to getting a healthy internet economy, no?

Re:Not africa's biggest problem

[crazypen]

'Try calling someone from remote areas or under developed areas in Africa. Good luck because the infrastructure is not there. In Many places you would be lucky to have electricity........ G'day' "And a computer with the internet would fix that how? You would be doing a better service putting the telecomunications in first. Maybe at the same time. There are satellite phones already in use over there and there are cell towers going up all over the place last I heard." Such was my point exactly.......................

Re:Not africa's biggest problem

[Anne Thwacks]

What would happen if all foreign aid was removed from Africa for two years? The death toll would be in the hundreds of millions.

Nope. A large number of aid workers, and an even larger number of corrupt officials would be out of business. For the rest it would probably be business as usual.

You are under the mistaken belief that aid goes to the poor. Nope. It goes to the corrupt - it is what feeds corruption and incompetent governments. Get rid of aid, and Africa would be booming.

African countires are not poor because they lack resources. They are poor because they lack the rule of law. A major reason for the failure of rule of law is that aid, and aid related corruption, delivers wealth to the worthless while undermining the earning potential of the honest. And Yes, I have been there and seen for myself. I have even posted to /. from Nigeria. using a satellite link to an internet cafe, or a university campus network.

Re:Not africa's biggest problem

[StarfishOne]

If copper is removes so fast again.. would fiber not be an alternative? Perhaps creating a new acronym in the process: FTTS. - Fiber To The Safari? ;)

Re:Not africa's biggest problem

[lena_10326]

Last I checked with friends of mine who used to do this sort of thing, copper you put in the ground in large parts of Africa was being pulled back out just as fast and sold as scrap.

Makes a bit of a barrier to getting a healthy internet economy, no?

Wireless. Microwave. Satellite.

Re:Not africa's biggest problem

[Abuzar]

I see that your previous post has been modded flamebait and judging by your posting history,

--rant snipped--

Judging someone by how they are perceived by the masses does not give your argument any weight. It just shows your level of conformity and that you're engaging in a personal attack rather than engaging in a useful debate.

The original poster has a valid point, and it is one that is being hotly debated amongst non-profit organizations and activists around the world. From India to Europe, from the US to South America, and especially Africa, it is now widely recognized that prescribing solutions and throwing wads of money hasn't helped, isn't helping, and won't help.

This way of working is attributed to the first world and the wealthy and has emerged as a significant difference along racial lines and is motivated by private economic interests rather than social public interests. Amongst the non-profit sector these days, there is widespread recognition that the hierarchy, prescription, and funding model needs to make way for more diverse methods, and there is a major push to have solutions lead by the affected communities.

I would urge you to not make jabs at others and instead research the topic a bit more.

Re:Not africa's biggest problem

[fusion9290991]

Yep. Is there any other country in the world where you pay line rental TWICE for the same line, one rental ostensibly to be used for voice and the other for data? It's the same piece of copper running to your house, you just have to rent it TWICE from Telkom (the fixed line operator in this country), like it or not. Rental is about $15 (US) x 2, and there's no such thing as free local calls or anything like that. The Hellkom http://www.hellkom.co.za/ website can give those in first world countries a good idea of how money-grubbing politicians in this country have fucked up the infrastructure here. Our minister of communications is over 70, and doesn't even know how much a phone call costs...

Re:Not africa's biggest problem

[hachete]

I hope that the internet would be an end-run around the corrupt officials. I'm not saying it's a silver bullet - Africa could do with less of those, not more - but it might allow the people to connect directly to each other for information rather than going through the system. Although the system doesn't like these sorts of deals and treats them as disruption accordingly; it will get beaten with the usual array of whips (from "think of the children" to "piracy") by the local corrupt officials. However, if we allowed our cynicism to over-ride our good intentions, we'd never get anywhere.

Re:Not africa's biggest problem

[Anonymous Coward]

+1
I know an author that lives in a pretty bad area in Africa. David Freer. If you happen upon one of his books be glad. He probably had to seed them out by camel or mule or something considering his brief comments on the state of the phone system out there.

Re:Not africa's biggest problem

[ghyd]

"Why does poverty still exist despite decades of development aid? In this talk, Iqbal Quadir explains why "aid does damages: because it empowers authorities instead of people," and advocates a new approach to development from below, "by the people for the people." His own experience as a child in Bangladesh and later a banker in New York brought him to realize that "connectivity is productivity" -- and that a simple cell phone has enormous power. Now his telecom company, GrameenPhone, offers service to most of rural Bangladesh, creating new opportunities by connecting villages to the world."

http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/view/id/79

I think there's another talk where they explain how thanks to mobile phones some African fishermen can now make a few more miles to sell their fish were there is the most demand. Finally Internet profited to my life, I don't see why African people could not make sense of it. It's easy to discard something as not useful for other people when you're already benefiting of it.

Re:Not africa's biggest problem

[houghi]

Is AIDS solved in your country? What about Cancer? Are there people living below the povertyline in your country? Solve that first, or do you think this is not an OR/OR but and AND/AND solution?

Do not put all your eggs in the same basket.

Re:Not africa's biggest problem

[sumdumass]

I don't think I understand what your getting at. Would you mind being a little more specific?

Re:Not africa's biggest problem

[Anonymous Coward]

"Africa is living proof that imposition of a foreign structure and hierarchy"
sure...

So Rhodesians were starving under white rule? No, of course not. NOW Zimbabwe is starving, because the blacks are reverting back to their usual, selfish, 'live for today' ways, having BUTCHERED hundreds of WHITE farmers and their families, for having the gall to feed all of Zimbabwe.

And yet again the useless black parasites will have their hands out to 'evil' whitey, "Please feed us, you blue eyed devils".

Africa is a shithole BECAUSE it's full of Africans. Or hadn't you noticed? Perhaps you've been living in an all white area for your entire life, and never seen the 'joys' that 'diversity' brings to any white country that black parasites move into...

Screw Africa. Our 'governments' have no right to STEAL OUR money to give to a bunch of useless parasites in Africa. Do you seriously think blacks would EVER give a cent to WHITE people if WE were starving?

I wonder how much money China gives to Africa...

How do China, Japan and Korea cope WITHOUT the 'benefits' of 'diversity'?

Re:Not africa's biggest problem

[Zibblsnrt]

Right, because everyone knows a continent with a population of nine hundred million across fifty-three countries is incapable of multitasking.

Re:Not africa's biggest problem

[TheSync]

it is now widely recognized that prescribing solutions and throwing wads of money hasn't helped

1) The prescriptions (economic deregulation and respect for private property rights) have not been followed. Most countries in Africa remain economically "Mostly Unfree" by the Index of Economic Freedom

2) Indeed, the aid money mostly ended up in the hands of the friends of the same incompetent governments that didn't follow the prescriptions. The West wasn't able to bribe African governments into obeying economic reality.

Re:Not africa's biggest problem

[Sproggit]

Nope
You are all missing the point.
The greatest benefit of internet to the third world has nothing to do with getting farmers the latest alfafa prices, and everything to do with creating an unrestricted, uncensored source of information.

This information can (and should ) be pertaining specifically to local and regional government, and their reputation in international circles.
While this information is controlled by corrupt governments, we have situations like in Zimbabwe where the local population truly believes that the country's financial ruin, and the possibility of impending widescale famine is due to western leaders being in league with Satan, as opposed to their crackpot dictator indirectly in charge of the last remaining vestiges of media being as crazy as a red assed baboon.

(This does of course not preclude the possibility of a first world 'elected' president also being as crazy as same aforementioned baboon, and also -according to some- controlling most of the media, and the lesser intelligent segment of the population... but thats another argument)

The Sproggg

Re:Not africa's biggest problem

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, to me a place without Internet is sub standard.
Like a shack with an outhouse.
I won't go there.
And I guess most people that ever enjoyed the comfort of cilization will neither.

Every weekend I look forward to going out of the city, where the Cell has no service,
we have no internet, and I can just play with the dog and kids, run in the yard and swim
in the pool. sometimes I pee in the yard. Not everyone has such a firm embrace of
technology. Some of us like to enjoy life without it now and then. When we drive
in to town, we can check our blackberries, etc.

Re:Not africa's biggest problem

[tjma2001]

Well we would be able to get better prices for our produce but we all know the story about the north american and european farm subsidies that is crippling africa..but hey i guess people have to look after their own interests. We actually do need the telecommunications industry beefed up a lot more.. we actually loose a lot of business due to the fact that the internet infrastructure is so bad. Our digital connections here in South africa are really going to have to be beefed up if we are serious about the soccer world cup in 2010.

I cannot speak for other african countries but i can say for certain in south africa that progress is being prevented by our main national operator that owns all the fixed lines in the country. Telkom is da devil

Re:Not africa's biggest problem

[Anonymous Coward]

Similarly, pushing African mothers to use powdered baby milk rather than encouraging them to breastfeed, which is a healthier option, just to sell more of your product is exploitative at best.

Unless the mother in HIV positive, in which case it is yet another vector for spreading the disease. Other than that, your statements are very perceptive.

I see Africa as having two major problems which must be delt with before meaningful change can occur: 1) Corruption at all levels, especially in government, and 2) Lack of a free public education system that most western countries take for granted. The first problem is why investment on a microeconomic scale is much for effective than huge projects. The second one -- well, I think most people would agree that an educated workforce is a prerequisite in order to compete in a global marketplace.

Re:Not africa's biggest problem

[Anonymous Coward]

1) The prescriptions (economic deregulation and respect for private property rights) have not been followed. Most countries in Africa remain economically "Mostly Unfree" by the Index of Economic Freedom

2) Indeed, the aid money mostly ended up in the hands of the friends of the same incompetent governments that didn't follow the prescriptions. The West wasn't able to bribe African governments into obeying economic reality.

Uh, "Index of Economic Freedom"? Sheesh.... and the prescription is Western briberies for authoritarian systems to accept artificially created realities to impose domination?

Please, PLEASE, stop torturing me with your arrogance.

"The Master's Tools Will Never Dismantle the Master's House"
-- Audre Lorde

Rejoice!

[antek9]

I heard, Nigeria is about to be connected. I received mail from my new business partner down there today. If all overdue money transfers go through well, fiber optic broadband for the people is just around the corner. Or so I'm told.

Re:Rejoice!

[Anonymous Coward]

I got that mail too. Someone seems to have died and left a lot of money, thing is they can't cash the check and they need me to cash it, save a little for myself, and send it back so they can get their internets working.

Re:Rejoice!

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow! You guys beat me to it. More SPAM and bot-infested pirated-OS Cyber Cafe's where everything but freedom of speach goes. Sounds great.

Re:Rejoice!

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not about the money, it's about having more slashdot users!
That will make my account number look more l33t than... oh dang, I'm an anonymous coward.

Fortunately

[Iphtashu Fitz]

Those parts that are connected are using it to fight corruption. Why just yesterday I got my third e-mail from the widow of a former government employee who needed my help to move some funds out of Nigeria so that the corrupt government couldn't get its hands on it. All they needed was my bank account number.

Re:Fortunately

[Ciriacus]

LOL brilliant!!

Re:Doesn't matter

[ThoreauHD]

Not before they starve to death and suck the rest of the planet dry with stupidity.

I'm glad

[packetbasher]

that 4% is in Nigeria.

Oh look, and email from a long lost relative needs my help in a financial transaction....

Re:I'm glad

[The tECHIDNA]

I know that you were trying to make a joke, but if you (and others) would've RTFA, it would be seen that this article has nothing, NOTHING to do with Nigeria!
Don't believe me? Try searching for the string "Nigeria" in the print version of the article.

This is why I'm a little PO'd that when almost anything about Internet access in Africa comes up (ref: today's OLPC article), it's always "Fuck that, I don't want more 419 scams!" (never occurring to oneself to educate oneself aboutthem and just delete the damn things).

Thinking along those lines is a dis-service to others in Africa who need the speedy access, such as educational institutions, medical workers, relief/aid workers, scientists, engineers...and can make a big opening for globalized businesses (that are not mining or petrochem), such as car/truck companies and electronic research companies, to come into the country and start building stuff up. For all we know (and I might get modded down for this), Kigali, Rwanda in 10-20 years could be the next Bangalore, India if they have the resources to do it.

Thinking in the mentality box of "SCAMMERZ!" or "All they want is teh pr0n!" is what may be a small part, but still helping to mismanage stop investment in Africa, which is the point of TFA in the first place.

Re:I'm glad

[Anonymous Coward]

This is why I'm a little PO'd that when almost anything about Internet access in Africa comes up (ref: today's OLPC article), it's always "Fuck that, I don't want more 419 scams!" (never occurring to oneself to educate oneself aboutthem and just delete the damn things). Woah there cowboy! Calm down, it's just a joke.
Clearly you are new here.

Re:I'm glad

[Perseid]

419 scammers are not only from Nigeria. I used to work for IP-Relay(look it up if you're confused) and there were scammers from Egypt and Cameroon as well. Or at least with IP addresses that resolved to those countries. Does that mean all Africans are scammers? No. Does that mean that Africa doesn't deserve Internet access? No. It does prove that a large portion of that continent has serious problems that should be addressed first, or at least concurrently.

Re:I'm glad

[flyingfsck]

Actually, the cost of the African undersea cable runs are shared between Portugal, Nigeria and South Africa. So, Nigeria isn't all bad in this regard! Other African countries are simply too poor to contribute anything at all.

Internet?

[akkarin]

Don't get me wrong: I understand that internet access can greatly assist businesses and individuals, however... Should the people be worrying about No Internet? How about clean water and safe food? What next: Blogging from Africa, titled 'Why I'm so hungry..."?

Re:Internet?

[Anonymous Coward]

It seems like the real "injustice" isn't lack of web access, but that so many people aren't terribly interested in living our lifestyle.

Is it really a good thing that we want them competing for Apples, SUVs, and carbon-based energy?

Re:Internet?

[dhasenan]

It seems to me that the real "injustice" is a life expectancy of less than thirty years, a belief that raping virgins cures AIDS, religious civil wars, genocide...

Re:Internet?

[Anonymous Coward]

That was sort of my point. (Forgot the sarcasm flag.)

Bigger picture...

[lixee]

Truly enough, the traditional monopolies of the telecom companies are what's keeping the prices high up. To talk about the case I know best, the Moroccan telecom company IAM (Maroc Telecom) abuses its monopoly in so many ways that citing them would require a whole article. The people benefiting from that are, of course, the political and business elite. It wouldn't surprise me that the government is purposely keeping the masses off the Web to keep them blindfolded. Aware citizens would certainly demand change from the dictatorial regimes Africa's infested with.

Re:Bigger picture...

[TubeSteak]

Aware citizens would certainly demand change from the dictatorial regimes Africa's infested with.

The same dictators supported by the West?

'The West' (America, England, France etc) have supported, propped up, or installed dictators in numerous countries on the African continent at some point or another within the last 20 years.

Dictators were the West's way of keeping a lid on various fractured populaces for the purposes of maintaining stability, usually so western powers could continue exploiting the resources of those countries.

It's only a recent phenomenon that spreading Democracy has been considered a better idea than installing a strong dictator to hold things together. Despite that ideal, look at how many dictatorships Clinton and Bush Jr have been buddy buddy with.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that the populace can demand all the change it wants, but there are many other parties who have a keen interest in maintaining the status quo.

Re:Bigger picture...

[lixee]

Absolutely. I thought it went without saying. But in times when lots of people are buying the whole "spread democracy" line, it doesn't hurt to spell it out.

Re:Bigger picture...

[toddhisattva]

'The West' (America, England, France etc) have supported, propped up, or installed dictators in numerous countries on the African continent at some point or another within the last 20 years. You left out Russia and China, but they're the good guys so nobody should criticize them.

Re:Bigger picture...

[technos]

Dictators were the West's way of keeping a lid on various fractured populaces for the purposes of maintaining stability, usually so western powers could continue exploiting the resources of those countries.

It's only a recent phenomenon that spreading Democracy has been considered a better idea than installing a strong dictator to hold things together. Despite that ideal, look at how many dictatorships Clinton and Bush Jr have been buddy buddy with.

I don't think that the 'Spreading Democracy!' meme Bush and company are using to install a friendly government is any better. Smacks rather badly of the old ideal that Communism was so appealing to the worker-class that they couldn't possibly turn it down, and that countries that didn't jump right into bed with the Reds were obviously being manipulated by the bourgeoisie and needed 'liberation'. By force.
 

Re:Bigger picture...

[Lemmy Caution]

The USSR backed the Angola rebels, otherwise I don't recall them being that active in coups, revolts or the like. What did China do in Africa that compares with any of the others?

The original post, however, is still historically a wreck. The West has only been relatively "hands-off" since the late 1980's. It's 500 years before that have been the problem, not the past 20 years.

Re:Bigger picture...

[TubeSteak]

You left out Russia and China, but they're the good guys so nobody should criticize them.

You make a valid point.

However, I took the behavior of those countries for granted, considering they both have strong central governments... thus there is no inherent contradiction with their foreign policy.

Western countries have been in the dictatorship business for centuries. The Enlightenment Period (1700s) was no such thing when it came to their foreign policy.

Re:Bigger picture...

[TapeCutter]

"I guess what I'm trying to say is that the populace can demand all the change it wants, but there are many other parties who have a keen interest in maintaining the status quo."

The treatment Hamas has recieved from the EU & US clearly demonstrates what western leaders think about the spread of democracy. They don't mearly fail to recognise "the right of Hamas to exist" they actively seek to destroy it, the US has recently gone so far as to arm and train Fatah militants in order to maintain the status quo via the good ol' divide and conquer routine.

The odd thing is that Hamas has kept it's word and has not used suicide bombers for over 3 years (yes, they stopped BEFORE they were elected by ~70% of the popular vote), this self-imposed "restraint" is despite the fact many of it's elected officials have been assasinated or kidnapped by Isreal during the last 3yrs. Even more curioius is the fact that the suicide bombers during that time have come from the Fatah group, the same group that the US have recently armed and trained to fight Hamas.

Just to remain on topic you can see the same strategy in Africa, during the 70's-80's the SLA were considered an "evil" in the heart of Africa, apparently now that China has control over Sudan's oil, ...err...I mean....influence over Sudan's rulers...., the SLA are the "good guys" who require our assistance to protect their ancestral homeland.

Of course the prime example of hypocricy in our time is the fact that - 25yrs ago OBL & Saddam were both "good guys" fighting the commies with our "generous" financial and political support. I could rant forever with similar examples, $2B worth of attack choppers donated to Burma's nut-job rulers in '97 anyone? /rant

Disclaimer: None of this makes "the other side's" actions any better, but if anyone thinks I have my facts about Hamas all fucked up, read this, and double check the information for yourself.

Re:Bigger picture...

[RealGrouchy]

Truly enough, the traditional monopolies of the telecom companies are what's keeping the prices high up.

Yes, although the wording of the article ("national communications") implies that if the backbone wasn't a government-controlled monopoly, the free market would take over. I only skimmed the first page of TFA, but nothing seemed to say otherwise.

Pardon my tinfoil hat, but it looks like this is just fodder for yet another World Bank/IMF push to privatize yet one more thing, and push yet another industry into the hands of a profiteering corporate monopoly (sigh, I know, as opposed to a profiteering corrupt government).

Am I crazy and just reading it wrong, or is there something to this?

- RG>

Re:Bigger picture...

[Hal_Porter]

The USSR backed the Angola rebels, otherwise I don't recall them being that active in coups, revolts or the like.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Terror_(Ethiopia)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/6171429.stm

You're right, apart from the 8.5 million Ethiopians who died in the Red Terror and government created famine, Soviet foreign policy in Africa was pretty benign.

What did China do in Africa that compares with any of the others?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/ne ws/2005/04/23/wsud23.xml

Funny how dictatorships consistently put their economic interests ahead of stopping genocide in far away places.

Re:Bigger picture...

[jez9999]

The treatment Hamas has recieved from the EU & US clearly demonstrates what western leaders think about the spread of democracy.

Yeah, because Hamas has been behaving in a really calm, rational, and democratic way recently.

Re:Bigger picture...

[Lemmy Caution]

China's actions are hardly comparable to those of the major Western powers - they simply blocked a UN sanction in order to preserve their oil trading partner. Not admirable, perhaps, but hardly on the scale of intervention.

The figure for Ethiopia is 1.5 million (and is better termed a democide than a genocide.) The casualties of the pre-Derg, Halie Selassie era famine were higher. While you are right to note that the USSR did back a regime (against its own allies, mind you, the Somalians, who were actively invading it) there is no indication that the Soviets manufactured the ouster of Halie Selassie to begin with, which is the issue at hand.

That calculus, of putting economic interests ahead of stopping genocide, is not limited to dictatorships, by any means.

Re:Bigger picture...

[TapeCutter]

Whoosh...

Re:Bigger picture...

[Hal_Porter]

The figure for Ethiopia is 1.5 million

Wikipedia says 1.5 million died in the Red Terror and 7 million died from famine.

(and is better termed a democide than a genocide.)

Mengistu was found guilty of genocide. But even if only 1.5 million people died in a mere democide, that would still make Communism a force for evil.

there is no indication that the Soviets manufactured the ouster of Halie Selassie to begin with, which is the issue at hand.

Do you really think the Derg would have been able to take over if the USSR wasn't around?

That calculus, of putting economic interests ahead of stopping genocide, is not limited to dictatorships, by any means.

Left wingers usually criticise Western foreign policy as being based on economic self interest. My point is that in a free society it is possible for individuals to argue for a more enlightened foreign policy. In a dictatorship it isn't, and so dictatorships will find it easier to ignore moral constraints than democracies. It's no accident that China's allies tend to be pariah states like Sudan and North Korea for example. Or murderous movements like the Khmer Rouge come to think of it.

Re:Bigger picture...

[Lemmy Caution]

Not calling Mengitsu an angel, but he was found guilty of genocide by the (also Communist) regime that ousted him, not by a neutral international board. His defense is that it was a civil war which raged over years - compare with the death toll of the US Civil War.

Re:Bigger picture...

[Hal_Porter]

Stop making excuses for him.

Mengistu killed millions of people purely because of his own ambition.

Re:Bigger picture...

[Lemmy Caution]

Did Abraham Lincoln? Or Jefferson Davis? What about Theodore Roosevelt?

I distrust these crude moral polarities. Why are some famines called the responsibilities of the dictators, while others (such as those during the Raj) just acts of God? I recommend the book "Late Victorian Holocausts" as a point of reference.

Re:Bigger picture...

[Hal_Porter]

The famines in the Raj weren't just acts of God. The number of people who died in famines dropped off dramatically once India became a democracy. Actually I think most famines are the caused by bad government - in a country with free press, free elections and a free market it's almost impossible for a famine to happen. The Raj is actually a good example - the English weren't trying to cause famines, unlike Communist governments who actively prevented food going to enemy areas, but the political system they imposed seemed to make them inevitable.

Re:Bigger picture...

[Lemmy Caution]

The English were, to some extent, trying to create a famine, by enforcing distribution contracts that the Indians had signed (under some duress), obligating farmers to export before local needs were met.

I recommend the Davis book for more insight.

Re:Bigger picture...

[Hal_Porter]

Well I don't know. But my point is that even if they weren't trying to starve people, they were still morally responsible because the starvation was caused by the system which they imposed. It's like if you lock people up in prison and they starve. If were actually policy to create famine, that's a far more serious crime. But the Raj would have still have been criminal even if the people running it were well meaning because it stopped Indians from feeding themselves.

Re:Bigger picture...

[datnigga]

it always make me cringe when even the most well meaning people, like the parent, come off as condescending pricks.
I don't claim to speak for all Africans, but as a South African I would rather deal with the typical assholes who are out here to exploit what and who they can, than people who speak down at Africans and think that we need some sort of "saving"...

Infrastructure?

[the_kanzure]

How would we build an internet infrastructure? What processes can we use to build fiber optics? Or what sort of PCBs and connectors would we need to make the "last mile" work? This looks like a project just waiting for some interested individuals to get some big plans together.

Re:Infrastructure?

[westlake]

how would we build an internet infrastructure? This looks like a project just waiting for some interested individuals to get some big plans together.

building and maintaining infrastructure demands a reasonably stable society and a healthy local economy.

otherwise "big plans" lead nowhere. case in point: Iraq.

Re:Infrastructure?

[timeOday]

Africa has 200 million cellphone users (about the same as the number of US cell phone users, and 10x the number of fixed phone lines in Africa). To me that seems like the obvious answer for last mile connectivity. Some might hook those phones up to computers with bluetooth, but maybe they should just skip that step and use smartphones without computers. Already Africa is using cellphones to increase productivity, such as cell phone banking.

Re:Infrastructure?

[cmanuh]

Africa is not a country, it's a continent. USA on the other hand is a country. it pays to see that distinction.

Re:Infrastructure?

[maybenot]

Ok, lets say Africa gets wired. And lets say they get tons of computers, YEAH. Ummm... got a small problem. We dont have electricity. As soon as we put up electrical lines the locals steal them and scrap the copper. Uggg... Lets say we get by that hurdle. Now how are they going to pay for it. The exchange rate isnt very good and cost of goods is very low. Monthly internet plan for $0.02 month might even be high for some. How about: 1mb = 1 chicken 5mb = 1 goat

Re:Infrastructure?

[InakaBoyJoe]

Agreed. The article belies a typically American-headed point of view by pitting cell phone development against internet development:

Government officials say the company has spent more time marketing and signing up cellphone customers than on expanding Internet service.

Well, of course, the article author fails to realize that a modern cell network is essentially an IP pipe on the backend anyway. Gee, maybe there's some logic to the situation, that the last mile hassles just aren't worth it, especially in an environment like Africa?

Install HSDPA/HSUPA and call it a day.

The cell phone form factor is probably a way better fit for data services for the average citizen in Africa anyway. Consider:

• PCs need reliable power and lots of it. A phone can be practically operated on solar or dynamo power.
• OS. Given a PC, most people are going to want Windows. That expense can be spared with mobile phones, where there isn't yet an entrenched OS tax.
• Maintaining last mile reliability in often less-than-stable environment. PC: one wire to worry about per household/business. Phone: one wire per thousands of subscribers.
• Equipment cost. Almost identical now, but the simple fact that a smaller form factor uses less material means it will be basically more cost effective.
• Theft/security issues. If needed, your investment can travel with you instead of having to leave it vulnerable to thieves at home/office.

Those who need and can afford a PC can use an HSDPA modem and still get way better performance than current ISDN/ADSL offerings. For everyone else, their handheld terminal serves as their internet access device.

Given that this picture seems a lot more practical than wiring the whole country, I think it's quite *right* for the telecoms to focus on building up the cell network before trying to re-create some American vision of wired broadband and a PC in every house.

Re:Infrastructure?

[datnigga]

Amen!

Re:Infrastructure?

[datnigga]

"As soon as we put up electrical lines the locals steal them"

God help us all.

How about not killing each other first...

[csoto]

...then worry about network access. Until Islamic and tribal aggression are curtailed, there's no real point in worrying about such things.

Re:How about not killing each other first...

[matthewcraig]

Classic "short-term / long-term" distraction argument. Why worry about preparing for the future, when there is something other bad happening right now?

The answer is: If we postpone improvements until there is no killing or until there is religious harmony, then we would never do anything.

Re:How about not killing each other first...

[hyc]

For the US the saying was "television is the opiate of the masses" - it's very likely that bringing good mass communication to everyone will help quell their bickering. Either thru education, getting people to see each other and their place in the rest of the world, or just feeding them mind-numbing videos via Youtube.

Re:How about not killing each other first...

[Gryle]

If we postpone improvements until there is no killing or until there is religious harmony, then we would never do anything
Granted, but it seems reasonable to wait until there is a significant drop in the amount of killings or the chances of being killed

Re:How about not killing each other first...

[Beyond_GoodandEvil]

Classic "short-term / long-term" distraction argument. Why worry about preparing for the future, when there is something other bad happening right now?
Wars, genocide and famine are a bit more serious than mere distractions. Last time I checked dead people had no use for the internet.

Glaring assumptions

[Anonymous Coward]

Prices remain high because the national telecommunications linked to the cable maintain a monopoly over access, squeezing out potential competitors

Really? It's not because the road network is crap, or because nearly all telecoms equipment has to be imported, or any other plausible, material cause? And the fact that North America had a telecoms monopoly while also being at the cutting edge (during Bell's reign) of that field has no bearing on this? I admire the authors' steadfast assuredness in their uncomplicated economic theories.

market ripe for development?

[nurb432]

Doesnt he mean 'ripe for commercial exploitation'?

Re:market ripe for development?

[Kohath]

Yeah, my Internet service provider commercially exploits me every month. What a ripoff. I get high-speed Internet and they want to get paid for it!!?!?

Why would anyone in Africa want that? High speed internet -- who needs it! Someone might make some money by providing it to people. Money! They should work for love! They should make fiber optic cables out of their own altruism and power the routers with the self-satisfaction they get from doing good.

What evil thing will those exploiters do next? Commercially exploit hunger by selling good, healthy food at a small profit? Better to starve than allow such exploitation!

Re:market ripe for development?

[nurb432]

The internet is the modern vehicle for exploitation by both governments ( control of information ) and corporates.

Exploit hunger? it happens every day. Remember the UN's 'food for weapons' programs? Thats a good example of international exploitation.

Re:market ripe for development?

[Blackknight]

You say that like it's a bad thing.

Re:market ripe for development?

[Kohath]

By "exploitation" do you mean a situation where I voluntarily go into a store and buy something -- perhaps a book -- and pay for it? I wanted the book more than the money, and the store owner wanted the money more than the book, so after the transaction both the store owner and I consider ourselves better off. Is that the kind of "exploitation" you mean?

That's the commercial relationship I have with people and corporations, including my employer. Should I feel commercially exploited by them? Should I count myself guilty of exploiting them in return?

Re:market ripe for development?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes?

Re:market ripe for development?

[grasshole]

you have an exquisite sense of sarcasm, my friend all blessings! to YOU!!1

Don't you want YouTube?

[Aqua OS X]

"Don't get me wrong, I love that video with that weird dancing Indian midget. Although, I could really go for some drinking water, AIDS medicine, and less raping."

-A Nigerian Prince

Typical cost - for those who might not know

[bogaboga]

I was in Uganda on a Technical Advisory mission in 2002 and was outraged by the cost of internet connections down there. For a 128Kbps (down) and 32 (up) link, the organization was forking US$275 per month. This was for unlimited use.
 

A bit off-topic here: I also got educated in a way...that is...I realized that it is actually hotter in USA (Texas) than in some of these African countries that we think are way too hot. Temperatures never went above 86 degrees F, in the capital (Kampala)...compared to the 113 degrees in some parts of the US lately.

Re:Typical cost - for those who might not know

[flyingfsck]

It is the altitude. Most of Africa is very high above sea level. It is sad to think that the 'golden age' of Africa was the colonial period.

Re:Typical cost - for those who might not know

[akintayo]

Could you be so kind to explain how the 'golden age' for Africa would be the colonial period ?

Re:Typical cost - for those who might not know

[alba7]

Well, they had working railroad then.

Re:Typical cost - for those who might not know

[DeepHurtn!]

You really, really need to read something about how many Africans were wantonly butchered by Europeans, how many peoples were forced into concentration camps, and how entire cultures were wiped out for no reason other than to satisfy the greed and bloodlust of European savages. To call colonisation Africa's golden age is ridiculously uninformed, cruel, shortsighted, and arrogant. Unfrickin'belieable. Go get a clue. You sound monstrous.

Re:Typical cost - for those who might not know

[Alcyoneus]

You need to read about how many Africans were wantonly butchered by Africans before Europeans arrived, how African nations genocidally eliminated whole cultures to satisfy their blood lust and ethnic hatred. None of this changed during colonization, and it's not changed after colonization. In this sense, colonization had no effect on Africa. All it did was change who was doing the bloodletting. European colonization was a horror. But Africa before colonization was a horror, Africa during colonization was a horror, and Africa after colonization is a horror. When African peoples routinely starve atop some of the most fertile land in the world, you can't blame the white man. Unless, of course, the self-loathing white man really wants you to.

Power Infrastructure?

[Anonymous Coward]

How about the power infrastructure? Even a Piconet would need that problem solved.

Irony?

[eli pabst]

I love the irony that there is a thread also on the front page about the few OLPCs that are being sent to Africa are being used to surf porn. How can you rich westerners downloading your terrabytes of porn just stand by while the poor children of Africa are smacking it to dial-up?!

Re:Irony?

[Kjella]

I'm probably showing my age here, but to sum it up in one sentence:
If we could do it not so long ago, so can they.

Re:Irony?

[StarfishOne]

"..*snip* ..while the poor children of Africa are smacking it to dial-up?!"

Finally I understand why all those "Last longer.." e-mails are sent from Africa! ;o

The Internet May Not Be a Top Priority,

[ImustDIE]

The internet may not be a top priority (food, medicine, etc). But, bringing the internet to people may help with these things. What if poor farmers could learn new agricultural techniques using the internet? Or what about spreading better disease awareness? Not to mention the potential freedom it could bring once people realize there are alternative forms of government. Instead of just throwing fistfulls of money and medicine at these countries, open internet access could help them start doing more for themselves. No, I wouldn't say bringing the internet to third world countries is the top priority, but it certainly won't hurt.

Re:The Internet May Not Be a Top Priority,

[dabatla]

I totally agree with ImustDIE but one should never underestimate the potential impact that education and the accessibility to knowledge can have on a nation. Just look at what a difference the press made to society in general. Look at a country like the Zimbabwe where the press is completely regulated by the Government, and all the false propaganda is put in the papers, and the people there has no choice to believe them. With proper internet connectivity and education, a dictatorship like that of Pres. Robert Mugabe would most certainly be almost impossible.

Re:The Internet May Not Be a Top Priority,

[TheSync]

What if poor farmers could learn new agricultural techniques using the internet?

Does their government allow them to own their land? (For example, all land in Ethiopia belongs to the state; there is no private land ownership...try getting a loan to purchase fertilizer when you don't own your own land).

The problems of Africa can be put into two camps: Over-regulation, which leads directly to Corruption (because the regulations need to be broken, for a price, if any business is going to happen).

Now of course some countries have it far worse than others (compare Botswana versus Zimbabwe), but no countries in Africa are rated "Free" or "Mostly Free" by the Index of Economic Freedom, and most countries in Africa are rated "Mostly Unfree".

Re:The Internet May Not Be a Top Priority,

[TheSync]

Look at a country like the Zimbabwe where the press is completely regulated by the Government

Zimbabwe is probably the worst country in Africa economically right now.

Botswana's GDP per capita is $10,866. Zimbabwe's was $2,100 in 2006, probably even lower now.

I think it is

[barwasp]

The power of the Internet can be seen in how much tyrants try to suppress it. Using the Internet people can get informed, organized and find new business opportunities, and ultimately influence those Social, Political, and Agricultural issues.

Look around, much of the things you see changing around you, are changing because the Internet is stimulating the fields of product development and commercial competition. Why wouldn't the same happen in Africa?

Re:I think it is

[sumdumass]

Yea, then maybe India can get their jobs outsourced to Africa. Could you imagine the language barrier there? Now you won't be able to understand the people on both ends of the call.

Re:I think it is

[Anonymous Coward]

> The power of the Internet can be seen in how much tyrants
> try to suppress it.

The power of shortwave broadcasting cane be seen in how much
tyrants try to jam it. Yet still the signals get through,
without needing expensive telecoms infrastructure.

Spend $20 per household for a shortwave receiver and a few
hundred thousand dollars for a broadcasting station is more
economically sound. Just because you like to hang around on
the Internet and chat to folk doesn't make it vital or indeed
a particularly useful information resource -- check-out a good
library and see how the Web pales.

Re:I think it is

[datnigga]

quite a few international call centers are based in South Africa...for example, Discovery Health (south africa's largest health insurance provider) hosts their Destiny (U.S. division of Discovery) call centres in South Africa too. Most people here speak English fluently as well as two or three other languages.
And for the record I think food, medicine and communications are the most important things to any society. Internet access is just as important in the medium term as food is in the short.
Take a look at the number of people with cellphones in south africa and you'll be surprised. The guy that washes my windscreen at traffic lights for a cigarette has a cellphone too.

Online and waiting to migrate to the West

[wandm]

And once they get to internet, guess what Nigerians search for on Google? Check what country comes on top:
http://www.google.com/trends?q=united+states
http://www.google.com/trends?q=united+kingdom
http://www.google.com/trends?q=germany

Re:Online and waiting to migrate to the West

[Anonymous Coward]

We're just looking for business partners. Please help us out and you'll get rewarded great sums of money. /Your man in Nigeria

Re:Online and waiting to migrate to the West

[hakalugi]

and they've become self aware:

http://www.google.com/trends?q=419+&ctab=0

Re:Online and waiting to migrate to the West

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey, Nigerians aren't born knowing how to do a 419 scam, they have to learn somewhere!

Re:Online and waiting to migrate to the West

[rcw-home]

Wow. Google Trends is a little disturbing:

http://www.google.com/trends?q=error
http://www.google.com/trends?q=police+state
http://www.google.com/trends?q=nuts

This situation sounds familiar...

[The tECHIDNA]

OK, now that we have the silly "OH NOES!!! More Nigerian 419 romance spyware scamz!!1!1eleven!" posts out of the way, this article in summary seems to be like this:

1) Some millionaire who made a fortune during the tech bubble and who has never set foot on African soil, promises the telecom equivalent of the sun to Rwanda. Him and his company, Terracom, fails to deliver. Blames government and network infrastructure (that of course said millionaire never could've imagined!).

2) Governments get pissed off at the bait-and-switch. One fines Terracom "for failing to comply with its licensing obligations, failing to provide information about its operations and failing to pay several fees." Governments, however, can't do anything about schools and locations not having electricity...or can they?

3) Enter new CEO of Terrecom. Promises the sun again. They're a totally different company, they promise!

4) Government is fed up, starts hooking up telecom infrastructure themselves. Terrecom "welcomes the competetion" and whines (somewhat rightly) about infrastructure yet again.

Winners: dudes who took the government/Venture Cap money and ran.
Losers: anyone waiting and trying to get affordable and accessible Internet access.

The sad thing is, strike out Terrecom and replace AT&T and you have roughly the same situation (if only a tenth as bleak) in the USA (and I live in the USA).

Just wondering: why is it so hard to get Internet access to (central) Africa, but the water-locked continent of Australia is, or seems to be, humming along just fine?

Re:This situation sounds familiar...

[Anonymous Coward]

Just wondering: why is it so hard to get Internet access to (central) Africa, but the water-locked continent of Australia is, or seems to be, humming along just fine?

Probably because Australians are, on average, much richer than central Africans. Telecom providers like to run fiber where they can charge high rates for internet access.

Re:This situation sounds familiar...

[Anonymous Coward]

Just wondering: why is it so hard to get Internet access to (central) Africa, but the water-locked continent of Australia is, or seems to be, humming along just fine?

Oh i just bet you think we're all riding around on kangaroos, wrestling crocodiles and saying 'gday mate, chuck another shimp on the barbie'

Re:This situation sounds familiar...

[v1]

Just wondering: why is it so hard to get Internet access to (central) Africa, but the water-locked continent of Australia is, or seems to be, humming along just fine?

I would imagine laying oceanic cable even all the way to AU would be a heck of a lot easier than trying to trench it through africa, for a variety of reasons.

Anyone care to beat my laziness and dig up some numbers on just how many cables run to AU? I betcha there's a bunch. I have no problem video chatting with several of my friends there, and the speeds, consdidering the distance, are quite good. Can't exactly video chat on 128/32. I bet they love the "PDA/cellphone optimized" variant pages on things like google and reuters. Anyone remember Lynx? I bet they're still using it.

Re:This situation sounds familiar...

[Anonymous Coward]

Just wondering: why is it so hard to get Internet access to (central) Africa, but the water-locked continent of Australia is, or seems to be, humming along just fine?

Well, once upon a time, Australia was useful for something...some kind of "pacific war" or what not.

Re:This situation sounds familiar...

[SageMusings]

Well there IS a fair bit of that. You left out beer drinking, too.

Re:This situation sounds familiar...

[Anonymous Coward]

Three, one to the US, one to mainland Asia and one to Japan. We also pay through the nose for 'broadband' that can be as little as 128kbps. I get 3-4mbps down and 128k up on a good day on my cable deal (with ONE cable provider available) until I hit my 12 gig limit, when it throttles to 64kbps. Don't joke about lynx, I disable images when I'm throttled down. I can stream half an hour of video in around 6-8 hours.

waste of time and money

[timmarhy]

The last thing africa needs, is another distraction. food, clean water and stable government are the only things they should be focusing on right now. faster internet, is wayyyy down on the fucking list ok.

the internet affords them nothing tangible, which is what they need.

Re:waste of time and money

[bky1701]

Food and clean water would be more easy without so much overpopulation. Stable government would probably come about if they were better informed; if you lived in a place where corruption was considered normal, and you never really seen anywhere it wasn't (stories, but there are also stories of Atlantis and dragons), why would you ever even get the idea it was wrong?

I have heard a few times about Africa, and when you really think of the people there as PEOPLE, not some type of robot, it makes more sense. They're lives are so boring in many places, what do you expect them to do? Without proper education about the topic and without anything else to do, they turn to sex... and this leads to more overpopulation, STDs, etc...

Internet isn't going to fix all the problems, certainly not quickly, but it's far from "another distraction". Then again, maybe it is. Maybe what they need is a "distraction" that they can learn something with, too.

You know what they say... teach a man to fish...

How about the power infrastructure?

[the_kanzure]

How about the power infrastructure?

* Electric infrastructure systems research (publications) from the National Renewable Energy Laboratory
* Electric Power Research Institute re: a distributed network.
* Electric power transmission
* Hydrogen power wiki (questionable) * [pdf] Present limits of high-voltage transmission
* Power station diagram (and more)
* Energy development as well as * "The SuperGrid for Electricity & Hydrogen"- but no designs are included.

And with DIY wind turbine and the DIY UPS system, maybe we can cook something up?

Need more information. :)

Monopoly's are WHAT?

[Anonymous Coward]

Prices remain high because the national telecommunications linked to the cable maintain a monopoly over access, squeezing out potential competitors

Wait, what? Monopoly's aren't a good thing?! It works in the states, it should work in some third-world "country" called Africa!

Kids these days...

So What

[VonSkippy]

Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.....nope. There, I tried, still can't give a damn.

Africa has soooooooo many other problems that worrying about the internet doesn't even make the top ten. Certainly their corrupt government and military must have some connection - how do they wire transfer all the money they're laundering?

I'm sure some rich dumbass will make it their pet project though, since you know everything can be fixed if only some (media whoring) artist or actor gets behind the problem.

Re:Out of Africa...

[The One and Only]

Most of the people who left Africa in prehistoric times did so accidentally, with pretty much no knowledge that they were in Africa to begin with--it was pretty much random human migration, nothing more. Also, how on earth has some thinly-veiled racist remark gotten modded up a 3, Insightful?

Africa

[iminplaya]

Offline and waiting for peace.

About South-Africa, Internet Boom

[dabatla]

As a South-African citizen I believe that progress is finally taking place, I also believe that South-Africa specifically is on the verge of a dramatic internet boom. Hopefully, other sub-Sahara country's will follow, but also learn from our mistakes. Up until a few years ago Telkom, the monopolizing, mainly government owned telecoms operator was the only company in South Africa that was allowed, by law, to provide landline-based services and VOIP was illegal. Since the beginning of the new Government in 1994 the tale of South-African public internet-connectivity has been a long and tragic tale that has been told many times over. (check hellkom.co.za) But finally we are beginning to see some progress : Telkom now has a competitor, Neotel, and since their licensing, broadband prices started to fall dramatically, and it is continuing to do so. Telkom claims that it will have 1 million broadband subscribers by 2009 and for us, although most people are skeptical, that is a HUGE leap forward. With our growing economy and WIMAX just around the corner, proper broadband internet connectivity might just become one of the most successful tools for education, and most experts these days agree that education is the best weapon that we can use to fight our problems like HIV/AIDS and crime.

Re:About South-Africa, Internet Boom

[WhatHappenedToTanith]

From here in London, I sometimes get the impression that south africa as a beacon of development and stability will slowly spread progress to the north through Africa country by country, raising living standards (after all anything that has to get to South Africa has to come down through or past or close to many other african countries). As a South African do you think that this is true/possible/likely, or is South Africa's situation so radically different from the nearby northern countries that their corruption or systemic failures will not allow them to progress to a similar level any time soon? There seem to be some great cities growing on the continent and I am just curious if you are optimistic about the continent as a whole?

Re:About South-Africa, Internet Boom

[jez9999]

As a SA citizen, could you tell me why it is that your president continues to support Robert Mugabe's evil regime? Are you people of SA in the know about it, and if so, why do they not get rid of him?

Re:About South-Africa, Internet Boom

[dabatla]

Your right, South-Africa certainly was successful up until now, in comparison with other African countries. But one must ask why, and the reason is most probably a combination of factors. One thing that one has to keep in mind is that about a 150 years ago, most African countries, and their people indigenous people was quite literally still in the stone-age, and haven't even heard of a little invention called the wheel. South-Africa had about a 200 year head start, because of the trade that came around its coasts (which don't have to go though other African countries btw), and with its discovery of gold and diamonds a lot of westerners came here, speeding the process of educating people and bringing riches with them. My point is, the world is trying to catapult the rest of Africa from a stone-age culture into the 21st century within a very short period of time, and the only way to be successful, I believe, would be to educate the people of these countries by any means possible. So, Yes, I believe it is possible for the rest of Africa to stabilize. These countries need a culture change, and a shift perspective of what knowledge van offers them. It can be done, like in South-Africa, but it takes time and a lot of patience. But until that day comes, chaos will still rule in Africa. In my opinion anyway

Re:About South-Africa, Internet Boom

[dabatla]

Unfortunately your right, SA isn't doing anything to stop the chaos in Zimbabwe....and the reason, our government isn't providing a good official reason why not. But the answer is probably old politic ties. Back in the day when Apartheid was still in effect in SA, and Zimbabwe was still called Rhodesia, it was only with the help of an alliance with political party's in Zimbabwe that the ANC was able to overthrow apartheid (but that is only a VERY small part of the story). What I can tell you is that many of the ministers in the South-African government is old war-veterans that fought side by side with Mugabe and that is most probable reason why are so slow to respond to turn against Zimbabwe.

home sweet home

[sleigher]

Prices remain high because the national telecommunications linked to the cable maintain a monopoly over access, squeezing out potential competitors. Sounds like another country I know of that starts with an A. Well, Africa is a continent but you get the idea....

Africa - Too many problems to list

[Pherlin]

I'd urge anyone even thinking about trusting Africa with something like Interwebs to read up on a project called "Biketown Africa." Basically, Some companies tried to give African governments bikes in order, ideally, to help people like medical workers. Alas, after taking the bikes, they'd keep them locked up oftentimes, except for wonderfully beneficial purposes such as physical training for armies... Yeah, I'm worried about more scammers coming onto the internet. Because these people, if they scam even 100$ off a US person, that is a substantial amount of money for them, so of course they're going to consider doing such full time.

A New Era

[Anonymous Coward]

Myspace, Torrents, blogs and porn. This will solve all of Africa's problems.

Re:A New Era

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, it's not like there are any legitimate ways to make money on the internet!

Cart before horse.

[Stonehand]

It's not just the Internet -alone- that is encouraging such things as competition and product development. For instance, having a reasonably non-corrupt judiciary to adjudicate commercial disputes, and a flexible economic system that can readily shift labor and resources according to demand, is rather fundamental. Having a reasonably well-educated population that is already sufficiently wealthy in resources that many can afford to take business risks and -fail- is also critical.

If you're in a massively corrupt state, even a potentially fairly rich one, where between mismanagement and outright corruption plus disruptions in critical infrastructure from violent unrest, things are going to be slower whether or not you have Internet access. If you're busy trying to subsistence farm and worrying about both food prices plunging from imported food aid, or bad soil and weather conditions from decades of ecologically destructive practices, you have bigger fish to fry.

Re:Cart before horse.

[Anonymous Coward]

Forget the internet. You need to teach the leaders of those countries that it is far more profitable for them in the long run to help their country.

What they really need...

[sm4096]

The last thing they need is freedom to think and all the other shit on the first page of our constitution. I mean what good did that crap do for us. That is the last thing we should give them. We should just feed them so they do not have to fight over food because of the unforeseen famine. Have you no fucking heart. We should help those in need for as long as we are able. What kind of sad person are you.

Re:What they really need...

[Anonymous Coward]

It seems like a good premise, even with amending it which strictly should be some sort of complete redrafting voted for or against separately by the people. It's when you suspend and ignore the protections you get in the mess you're in. All that PATRIOT, Homeland Security, FEMA, FBI surveillance nonsense seems highly unconstitutional and should have USA patriots up in arms (literally).

An old project seems to have gone away

[mike3k]

What happened to the Joko Clubs in Senegal?

Re:Can't wait!

[cashman73]

I say we maintain the current status quo in internet connectivity for Africa, until Nigeria cleans up their act. And if they don't stop sending these 401 emails, we cut the damn cable to Portugal. I think the Navy Seals could have that cable cut overnight,... ;-)

OLPC, anyone?

[Qubit]

They're putting them in the hands of kids in Africa and elsewhere, but the OLPC and other pervasive technologies are going to be a big part of education-driven social and political reform in 3rd world countries. And that reform will have to take place before wired telephone and internet connections are available everywhere...

The fact that children in Africa are accessing porn is a good sign. It's f*cking AMAZING! Why? Because that means that for the first time these children are reaching out and interacting with websites and other people across the globe. If they are connected, then can receive information and they can SEND information.

Africa has huge issues with corruption. Africa has huge issues with genocide, rape, tribal warfare, dictatorships... and the list goes on. But the really great thing about technology is that while it can enable people to have guns and bullets and other tools of war, it can also give them cell phones and tiny laptops.

If more and more villages in Africa have access to technology that is not dependent upon the grid for power or for an internet connection (solar or manual power, satellite or some kind of ad-hoc network for Internet access), then that will enable communities to unite, it will enable people to be educated about relevant health, political, and social issues, and it will (hopefully) enable groups of spread-out people to push through reform of governments and pave the way for new infrastructure.

If you see a homeless person on the street, giving them a few cents might help them for a day, but the best thing you could do for them is to help them find the right path for them to take to earn money and become a contributing member of society.

There are a number of possible ways that we in the Western world could help starving children in Africa. The best way for us to help people in 3rd world countries is to give the individual people tools which enable them to organize their communities, reform their governments and companies, and build up their countries from the inside out. A generation of children communicating through small, portable, rugged computers seems like an excellent tool to jumpstart the organize-reform-build process.

And then when they are a first-world country they can have spiffy fiber-to-the-premises broadband for all, just like we do in America. Oh wait.

Hmmm... perhaps we need to start encouraging OUR kids to do some social/political reform as well!

Re:OLPC, anyone?

[TempeTerra]

The fact that children in Africa are accessing porn is a good sign. It's f*cking AMAZING! Why? Because... If they are connected, then can receive information and they can SEND information.

*snicker* Sorry, I realise you're not advocating this at all, but a selective quotation of your post makes it sound like you're excited about Africans achieving financial independance as producers of child porn. Good luck with that political career ;)

Re:OLPC, anyone?

[Anonymous Coward]

You don't know many homeless people on the street. They resist helpful attempts at education and "finding the right path". They are homeless by choice most of the time.

I believe this is something that can be applied back to the situation in Africa.

Yeah...

[Groggnrath]

...and millions of rural Americans have no Internet, no computer, no high speed / cable connections, and no cell phone coverage. While I admit that Africa desperately needs help, so do your rural and poor neighbors. There are thousands of U.S. children that cant read, or write, have no heath care, and have never had a full and balanced meal. Before we solve the worlds problems, shouldn't we clean our own ass up first?

Re:Yeah...

[mbstone]

America's philanthropists aren't interested in helping people in America.

I am not looking forward for it

[Newton IV]

I am managing a website with 700,000 users and we had to ban most of African IP ranges due to spam, scamming or other abuse. So did PayPal for example. You can mod me down for not being PC, but that's a fact.

Only x percent has . . .

[Digicrat]

Only 4 percent of Africa's population has regular access to the internet
And what percentage of Africa's population has regular access to electricity? To clean water? To abundant food? To peace and security? To a regular job? To education (ok, this one might come for free with Internet access)?

Regular access to the Internet will be important for Africa's future, but regular access to a few other "minor" necessities are a bit more important in the present.

Pearls for Pigs!

[SageMusings]

Let Africa concentrate on clean water, stable government, and a controllable birth rate. Internet access is the least of their problems. Hell, look what happened when the Nigerians got it.

Re:Pearls for Pigs!

[Anonymous Coward]

You don't think that communication and access to information is helpful for those things?

this farmer disagrees

[zogger]

Well, I farm and I use the net all the time for information I need. Everything from finding the best deals on repair parts to looking up plants and diseases and treatments, various livestock care information (we have quite a variety now beyond cattle and poultry, just this past few weeks we added ducks, quail and now rabbits), there's always new seeds and plants to order, I'm doing the research on making our own biofuel now-picked up an old datsun diesel pickup today in fact, because I wanted one, finally found one in decent running shape for cheap-45 mpg!- and that will be the guinea pig for my home made fuel, and, etc, besides having the handy weather applet. Tons of stuff. Granted, there are workarounds like always for lack of web access, but it sure speeds things up considerably for me. A very rough average, but I probably use the net for something to do with this profession 5 times a week or so. I'd frikken *hate* to have to drive to town to go to the library for this. Frankly, I don't even like going to town, our main goal is to get as independent as possible so we don't have to except maybe 4 times a year or something. We live rural because that is where we like it better, the net helps us stay here and stay in the black.

    Ya, we have stacks of farm mags, it still isn't the same as having a global library and informational resource at your fingertips. And that's leaving out the economic and political news. I do shortwave, too, always have since floor model tube jobs that doubled as living room heaters, but the net is like instant what you want when you want it, your schedule, not some one else's schedule.

Bottom line is, it's a fantastic tool if used as a tool. And if it is affordable and available, it will help our poorer brothers over in who_know's_where_istan as well. They'll find uses for it.

Re:this farmer disagrees

[sumdumass]

Sounds Like your new to farming. That's ok, but it isn't the samemsituation as these people in Africa or where ever are in. They have been doing it for a while now.

As for looking for repair parts, I have an account with the local Napa store. I get somewhat of a discount plus the tax exempt and I know the part I get is good and going to last. I have seen people use cheap parts which is OK if you don't depend on the machine or vehicle. Sometimes you get a deal and sometimes you have to replace them quite often. I don't have time to piss around with something when I don't plan to do it. I don't like fixing the same thing twice. I have a brothern who swears it is the smae thing, but he seems to be working on the same stuff all the time. I think he just wants me to come over more often or something.

I already know most of the diseases and how to treat or react to them. Of course I only grow alfalfa for the cattle and some corn for the hogs, A little wheat, mostely for the straw. You can get most the information you need from the county agg department. You should be visiting it anyways because they are the ones with the information that works in your area. Plus they will process soil tests and all. You can get a lot of information from them and the other farmers out there. You might find after a while you won't need to be on the internet all the time. And if you do happen to see some disease that isn't common in the area, you need to let them know anyways, the county agg department can let the state know, you might be finding an invasive disease an steps might need to be taken to stop it.

After about 5 years or so, you will know all your really need to know about livestock. The key with them is putting as little into them as possible while at the same time getting the most out. That sounds like an oxymoron but if you over feed cattle or hogs they won't grade as well and you won't get as much come market time. And for some reasons, the buyers will look for different things in your area then they will in others. Ever go to a livestop auction (not the one at the county fair) and wonder why some animals go a lot cheaper then others? There is why.

Rabbits are usually grown as FAA and 4H projects. It is strange, they picked up during the great depression because they are easy to raise and very productive. People started getting out of the market for them but now they seem to be coming back as top shelf cuisine. I don't know about them as for a product but they are good to eat. I prefer wild ones to raised rabbits but wouldn't turn either down. I'm glad to see someone else taking an interest in them.

Anyways, I'm way off our point here. You are new to farming and need to know this information. Most farmers have been in the business since they were born. That's right, they grew up on a farm and know this stuff like the back of their hand. As for the internet, I find the computer remarkably handy but the internet doesn't do much that I couldn't already do. I also repair computers and do networking so I go to town quite often. I could probably hold off for all but once a month if I wanted too. I don't have enough land to farm full time.

In reality, we have farmers in today's age that can't get the internet in America. Well, they can get dial up and that's about it. It wasn't all that too long ago that the feds created a fee on everyone's phone bill to get lines into rual areas. I dated a girl once who could only get a party line. It was odd calling her up and hearing people in other houses getting on asking how much longer and if anyone was in front of them because they want to call aunt susy. It is the same boat as in Africa. I'm the last person on my road that can get high-speed without going satellite. And the install cost for that around here is about $1000 ($500 install fee and $500 deposit). I shot a couple of high gain antennas over to the neighbors house (about 600 yards away). All he uses the internet for is to surf the net and play games. Mostly his kids use it. They say they are doin

Re:this farmer disagrees

[zogger]

Well, my folks weren't farmers but I grew up living rural working on farms, a variety of them up until my 20s, orchards, berries, market produce, then a dairy for a long time and a ranch, then I switched to urban living and worked some trades, but now I am semi retired (you know what that means farming, full time), and back on the farm. And I use the extension office some, but I still find it much faster and easier to look a lot of things up..hmm, odd fer instance, say there's a plant I just do not know the name of but notice it is getting more common, or some bug or another. Geez lotsa stuff really, like I outlined already.

As to parts, some I get local, others because of brand I have to order, no generics at all or local source, but there might be several places that have the parts so I shop around. I really find the net handy for a variety of reasons, like that biofuel project I will be starting. I've been into alternative energy for a long time, primarily solar, but the liquid fuels are new to me except for a long time ago I made some ethanol and ran a little bit of it for fun, but gas was so ridiculously cheap back then I lost interest, but now-fuel is not cheap, you know that. It all adds up. The farm we are on now is pretty reasonable for an east coast non-grain producing farm, it's not mine, I am just a worker here, but different from the other guys, one of my jobs is to think, see what can be done better, try different stuff out. I would really like to put a dent in the over ten grand a month electricity bill for instance or the having to get diesel by the thousands of gallons at a time with not much in the way of any price assurance other than what it costs that week or say the propane bill, which is serious 6 figures a winter. Stuff like that. I am doing a lot of research in those areas now and doing little pilot programs to see what might work and what might not work, and I am also looking in advance in case of any serious bad news stuff hits like avian flu, looking for ways to take what we have and diversify. Sort of an ongoing paid position to both conventionally farm and look to the future and see how we can do different things and do them better.

The net "just works" for finding out stuff, I mean nothing else comes close really.. And I don't care how old ya get or how much experience one may have, there's always something new to find out about any subject really, if it is in your interest, and ag in general is such a *varied* topic to begin with. With the changing economics and markets, it just pays to stay on top of trends and techniques, and I find the net to be about the best way to do that. I don't *want* to do the same thing all the other dudes are doing, that sort of market is saturated, I'm looking for diversification, lucrative niche markets, dropping expenses, etc. I can take a relatively cheap internet connection and both access a lot of smart guys research, and also eliminate middleman expense, a double plus good win in my book.

Re:this farmer disagrees

[sumdumass]

Well, my folks weren't farmers but I grew up living rural working on farms, a variety of them up until my 20s, orchards, berries, market produce, then a dairy for a long time and a ranch, then I switched to urban living and worked some trades, but now I am semi retired (you know what that means farming, full time), and back on the farm.

So much has changed in the last 20 or 30 years in farming in the US that I can understand a learning curve after being away for a short time. I also understand that you are playing the role of innovator and idea thinker to make things more profitable as well as functional. However, I think this is unique to your situation in comparison with farmers in third world countries where the claim that Internet access would help them.

I have a few books, one of them is "A Gardener's Book of Plant Names" and the updated "Stearn's Dictionary of Plant Names for Gardeners" along with a few who's name I don't remember that identify plants and diseases pretty well for me. And the great thing about it, I can go into the field and identify whatever without disturbing the plants themselves. The illustrations are cross referenced by leaf type and it is fairly easy to find the name from a visual description. This is something that I have found very dificult to do on the Internet. Maybe you know of a few sites that I don't.

As to parts, some I get local, others because of brand I have to order, no generics at all or local source, but there might be several places that have the parts so I shop around. I really find the net handy for a variety of reasons, like that biofuel project I will be starting. I've been into alternative energy for a long time, primarily solar, but the liquid fuels are new to me except for a long time ago I made some ethanol and ran a little bit of it for fun, but gas was so ridiculously cheap back then I lost interest, but now-fuel is not cheap, you know that. It all adds up.

We had a run with BioDiesel back i the late 70's early to mid 80's. There were several problems we had outside the fact that the Fuels didn't burn with as much energy and sometimes the tractor ran underpowered. One was that the fuels (we used a 30-70 mix on a government program on grandpa's farm) ate the rubber hoses and fouled the glow plugs which made starting in cold weather unpredictable. I think most newer equipment use a different type of rubbing so that might not be a problem with equipment produced after the 80's. Of course you know Diesel is susceptible to bacteria that can rob it of it's performance and cause harm to your equipment, With Biodiesel we found this to occur more often and was harder to control.

Then there is the lack of sulfur which to some degree acts as an upper cylinder lubricant on most Diesel engines. You will need something like Lucus fuel treatment or something to stop the excessive ware in that area. Of course the modern engined that have been designed to withstand the low sulfur fuels in use for on roads vehicles are slow to enter the ag area because we can use the Off road mixes that don't need the extra refining. And probably the most problematic part of using BioDiesel for us was that is started gelling at around 45-50 degrees. Normal Anti gelling additives for the 70's/80's didn't mix well with the Bio stuff either. They were little help. Being in a norther climate, that is a real problem, we had to install tank heaters, recirculation pumps, and heat the storage areas of the tractors we needed to use in cold weather. I hear modern BioDiesel goes through a Dehydrogenation process that negates that cold problem quite a bit.

I hope you find ways around these problems. It sounds like you are determined enough to do it though. I commend you for that. I would go that route again unless I had to.

The net "just works" for finding out stuff, I mean nothing else comes close really.. And I don't care how old ya get or how much experience one may have, the

ugh

[Anonymous Coward]

This is exactly what we need, more uneducated idiots on the internet. I mean come on, we get enough of that crap from the U.S. already.

Argument ripe for poster exploitation.

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe we should ask the OP for some historic examples of non-"commercial exploitation" that worked as well or better than the present system over the long haul? Any bets that he'll not find any?

The concept of thought crime.

[Zombie Ryushu]

I don't think the fact that you are Black, or White have has anything to do with whether your civilization is progressive or reactionary. The problem is idea and thought. The ideas and thinking people in Africa have to change en masse before things will really change. I don't know if its entirely colonialism's fault. You should look in the mirror before you blame yourself.

The Internet May Not Be a Top Priority-Loans

[Anonymous Coward]

"The internet may not be a top priority (food, medicine, etc). But, bringing the internet to people may help with these things."

Microloans is making more of an impact than internet access.* Here's more (Yes, it's not just a third-world thing).

*Money makes the world go round, not the internet.

humorectomy

[Gary W. Longsine]

Moderators, you have clearly had your humor removed. Was it a tragic accident, or a government experiment that made you so flat? Oh, wait... perhaps it was that the intended humor wasn't very funny. Overrated is more appropriate than Troll.

obama says fuck iraq

[Anonymous Coward]

obama says that we shouldn't worry about genocide in iraq. why should we give a fuck about aids, clean water or food in africa? i think we should just let africa rot and if obama holds to his thoughts he would agree.

Re:Out of Africa...

[flyingfsck]

Racist? Where did you get the notion that there is only one race in Africa? Africa is a very diverse continent, just like Asia, with hundreds of races and hundreds of languages, but the one thing that is universal in Africa is misery. They have perfected that.

Colonialism?

[NEOtaku17]

Colonialism's fault? The U.S. and Hong Kong were colonies. Why aren't we that f***ed up? For that matter the U.K. was a colony of Rome before we were a colony of them. Colonialism is not even close to the cause of Africa's mess.

Re:Colonialism?

[Zombie Ryushu]

Thats what I'm saying here. Everyone wants to pull the race card, and the "well its the Colonial power's fault." excuse. I am saying this is a problem of belief and thought, and that thought needs changing.

Re:Colonialism?

[Loke the Dog]

The north american colonies had very few things in common with 19th century african colonies. The origins of the people who lived in them were different, the way they were formed, the century the were claimed, the philosophies justifying their creation, the way they were managed... Colonialism is indeed part of the fault, but that doesnt mean colonialism never turns into something good.

Re:Colonialism?

[cmanuh]

imagine this: iran invaded USA, changed everything from the power of authority to the education system. in the case of education, while you communicate in english at home to your friends and family, you're required to learn to speak/read/write/understand the arabic language since it's the language of instruction in the classroom. they teach you math,science,etc using arabic. failure to learn arabic fast enough implies failing your SAT and not getting admission to higher institution of learning. as a result, more than 60% quit school before grade 9 and no more than 10% continue on to college/university.
this is the situation in almost every country in africa. their colonial masters had different goals and this was imposed as stringent as possible and it continues to be the norm up to today. if you can't blame the colonialist, then who can you blame? this is people's life interrupted and you simply can't wash your hand off as if you didn't have anything to do with it. situation in iraq is playing out just about the same way it did in africa, but it seems the west didn't learn anything from history either.

Re:Colonialism?

[flghtmstr1]

While I agree with the point you are making, Iranians don't speak Arabic. They speak Persian.

Re:Colonialism?

[Skrynesaver]

And the Americans are doing real well in the US?
I guess running a few casinos has improved their lot but having your culture eliminated and your population decimated tends to lead to a bit of a downturn in your society.
Hong Kong was a trading partner under Imperial rule, that is quite different to being an enslaved population under colonial rule.

Or, perhaps...

[NilObject]

Or maybe it's because they have bigger problems than not being able to surf porn and MySpace. Maybe, just maybe, they should work on things like stable governments and, you know, food and water first. Just an idea, anyways.

Africa: Susceptible to Scams?

[kilo_foxtrot84]

I've started wondering about how well the people of central Africa will handle the internet. Obviously there's a lot of problems there, as described in the above posts... what happens if they start throwing everything they've got into hopeless scams that prey on their destitution and strife? I'm not sure their culture is geared to handle it in quite the same way ours is, and I can't help but wonder if Africa is where we will first start to see cultures seriously undermined or destroyed by the Internet.

Re:Africa: Susceptible to Scams?

[Anonymous Coward]

What? I am an african, born and raised in africa. I have permanent internet access at home and at work, run 2 linux desktops at home and my main gripe is that the internet in my country is too expensive. The reason is NOT poor inter country connectivity, or kids browsing porn ( which i remember happening in my high school days in the 90's so we've had net for ages ). The problem is monopolies and governments getting kick backs from huge telecom companies. In my country, only now are we seeing some form of breakdown of the monopoly, in the form of wireless broadband which is cheaper now than ADSL. African culture is not the issue. In fact ignorance there of, like you are displaying is part of it. Just so we're clear. I live in a city. I have never seen a lion, maybe a few buck while driving through a game reserve. I have never been attacked by a wild animal. And monkeys dont hang on our phone lines. So please, dont be condescending, even if u are ignorant.

Re:Can't wait!

[sumdumass]

Wow, Troll over something obviously funny and almost neccesary.

Anyways, it isn't limited to the internet. I started getting phone calls that would ring once or twice and then hang up. The numbers were my own Cell Phone number with a Nigerian country and area code in front of it. I didn't find this out until after I got a letter from the government.

I had freaked out and called my cell provider and they claim they didn't even have a record of me getting a call at the times it was on the phone and then said someone must be playing games with a computer. I didn't like that answer and was thinking that some terrorist cell was cloning and using my phone and calling over seas or something. So I called the homeland security tip line and told them about it so I didn't get one of those all expenses paid trips to club gitmo for a couple of years by accident. I recieved a letter saying it was a scam where If I called back, I would get placed on hold for something like $50 to $100 a minute.

Useless to help the starving

[Anonymous Coward]

Cruel, yes. However, if you feed them now, more of them will die worse later.

The poor will always be with us and Africa has always been a basket case. No matter how much aid you throw at Africa, it won't make things better.

Change has to come from within. First of all, the majority of Africa's peoples must decide that they want to have a better life and actually start to do something about it.

Wireless for Africa: The only way forward

[wikinerd]

Counting on fixed intfastructure for Africa is wrong: The people are scaterred around in a vast continent. Ever seen Africa from Google Earth? It's full of small villages everywhere, even inside deserts and jungles. We should aim to potentially connect the whole of the African population to the Internet, not just those living in cities, and therefore we have to account for those in remote villages. Fixed cables are probably sufficient for the biggest of the African urban centres, but we need a wireless solution to connect the rest of the people. Furthermore, there are people in Africa who don't like staying in the same place much time, they are accustomed to move around (nomads or descendants of nomads). Other Africans may be so dependent on a specific kind of job that they may move whenever they have to change employer, just to have access to a job. Mobile phones do have some kind of penetration in the African continent and some people are used to them. These are all additional reasons why we need a wireless Internet solution,preferably something that could work with their mobile phones. 3G, WiFi, WiMax, and for the most remote of the villages, GPRS and satellite access are good candidate technologies for bringing more Africans to the Net. That's all about the technology. But the biggest problem is not technological, but rather economic and societal: People just don't have much to pay and even those who do are victims of monopolies, and nobody who has the power to help them thinks about them. Some people think that because Africa lives in poverty it should focus solely on covering its basic needs (food, shelter, peace). I think non-basic needs like access to information must not be overlooked. Many times better access to information can help one to find better ways to cover their basic needs. For example, farmers in Africa could benefit from the Internet by learning about agricultural technology and finding out information about new plants that they could grow. The fact that Africa missed the industrial revolution doesn't mean that it has to miss the information revolution as well.

I work in Africa

[abarrow]

I work in Angola, in telecoms/networking. I've been working with the guys in various African countries for the past 10 years, but I've only been working in-country for the past 18 months.

I expected the worst when I got here, and I wasn't dissapointed. Everything they say in the article about lack of satellite capacity and high costs of SAT-3 is true. We're just about to pay a company $1MM Euros/yr. for 6Mb of bandwidth out of here - compare that to your home DSL line. The in-country infrastructure is a disaster, and it's unlikely to improve soon. Just imagine what would happen if you put Texas through 30 years of civil war, then gave it 6 years to rebuild infrastructure. It's unrealistic to think everything will change overnight.

I hear the "fix the society first" bit a lot, including from local government officials. I see it a little differently. I'd like people to look at Internet connectivity in the same way that they now look at mobile phone usage. The main reason that mobile phones have been so popular in Africa is that the infrastructure is such a mess. Now, putting wired infrastructure in the ground in many citys just isn't a big priority - everyone has a mobile phone.

I think the same thing is possible with Internet connectivity and leveraging projects like OLPC. The society can leap-frog over the issues of lack of school books, teachers, and maybe even brick-and-mortar schools. Wireless can work where DSL will never be. Books are delivered online, and maybe even teaching. Rechargeable, battery powered devices are mandatory.

Still, that means that the main issue of wider connectivity needs to be solved. Satellite capacity over Africa is extremely limited, but getting better. We're unlikely to have another SAT-3 for quite a while.

Mod Parent +insightful

[sokoban]

Interesting points, it's always good to hear from someone who actually knows what they're talking about on here.

Do you think that the connectivity problems are feasibly solvable with the seemingly rampant culture of bribery and graft in many of the countries? It seems like there is a huge Chicken/Egg problem with respect to infrastructure and reforms going on.

Re:Mod Parent +insightful

[abarrow]

Sure, it's a problem, but in my experience it just makes things run slower, it doesn't stop them completely. Even in most countries where there's pretty serious monopolies, they know it's in their best interest to build out the infrastructure, so they do try.

Corruption is there, but it's not as rampant as the press would like you to believe. People and companies learn to deal with it one way or another. US-based multinational companies are very highly restricted by the FPA, meaning they don't touch those sorts of things, yet they get by just fine.

It happens - in the capital of Angola, Luanda, fiber is going into trenches as fast as they can be dug, even when it means pushing a squalid shack aside to do it (believe me, a very weird sight).

Development Happens in Order

[water-and-sewer]

Greetings. I live and work in Africa (http://therandymon.com/content/view/104/59/), so I happen to know a little something about the way things are. Frankly, I don't see the scandal in the fact that Africa doesn't have good access to the Internet, and reject this article on the grounds that (a) as usual, the story is focused on lack of infrastructure, which is not the correct focus, and (b) as usual paints a bleaker picture than neecssary.

It's true service is slower and more expensive but in the capitals and in major cities there is more than enough to go around. In Benin there is dial up service for about $15 per month plus the cost of the phone call, ADSL service in the capital for about $75 a month for 256/128, and if that's not good enough you can pay more (up to $200/month) for greater bandwidth. It's more expensive than I'd like and the service is occasionally down for service, not to mention phone line trouble, saturated networks, and so on, but that's another story. The point is, I've got Internet in the capital (Cotonou, if you care) and it's essentially satisfactory. Inland in places like Burkina Faso and Mali they've got internet connections as well, but they are more expensive and the bandwidth isn't as good, since the network goes through the coastal nations - Ghana, Togo, and Benin. The big agencies - UN, embassies, major companies working in the region - also have available satellite internet at much higher prices.

Lack of infrastructure is not the problem. Lack of a market willing to pay for the service that demands that infrastructure is, and as the market develops the infrastructure will suddenly seem like a worthwhile investment. You don't get Africans connected by building a bunch of equipment and hoping they show up. The second factor is regulation, which is clearly an area where African governments have some growing to do. To build a telecommunications sector (and make no mistake about it, if you put in cable and connections you're building the sector) you need effective government regulation. Unfortunately that has to happen from within, and no multinational company can effectively impose good government (and thus good government oversight) on a nation. The article's story about Kigali is a perfect example of this point.

In the meantime, where's the scandal? I have friends and colleagues who live in small villages inland, not in the capital. Every one of them has a hotmail/yahoo.fr/gmail account, and when they need to use the Internet they go to a cybercafe for a quick hour or two. That fits their budget and works well.

If you want to connect Africa, help educate the people so they can improve their own economic situation. They will form the basis for a stronger economic market for these services, and the system will be sustainable. Impose on these growing countries the infrastructure before they are ready to sustain it and you will just perpetuate the development myth.

Before leaving this post, I highly recommend you read White Man's Burden by William Easterly, if the idea of development interests you. After 40 years of investing in growing countries we know a lot more about it than before, and there are many lessons to be learned.

Re:Development Happens in Order

[syukton]

Frankly, I don't see the scandal in the fact that Africa doesn't have good access to the Internet, and reject this article on the grounds that (a) as usual, the story is focused on lack of infrastructure, which is not the correct focus

Ok, let's take a look here...

not to mention phone line trouble, saturated networks, and so on

Strange, those sure sound like infrastructure problems to me!

Re:Development Happens in Order

[TheSync]

To build a telecommunications sector (and make no mistake about it, if you put in cable and connections you're building the sector) you need effective government regulation.

Actually you'd be better off with NO government regulation, getting rid of all bribe opportunities in one fell swoop.

Re:Development Happens in Order

[AfricaHigherEducatio]

Easterly would not argue against infrastructure investment. I talked to him last week about African internet connectivity in particular, and have no sense that he would disagree with any part of the NYT article. The article says only, lack of infrastructure is a bottleneck to development. Not that foreign aid is needed to string cable throughout Africa.

I taught university students in Africa, and they cannot afford the internet cafe prices, and their schools cannot afford the kind of connection that a proper educational institution would have.

EJM

What Good It Is

[DynaSoar]

Let's leave aside the issues of life, like infant mortality, life expectancy and disease morbidity and focus on the relevant issues:

Less than 60% of Africans are literate.
20% of Africans don't have electricity and that number is increasing by almost 10% per year. That is, they're losing it, not getting it.
Less than 1% of Africans have land line phones. Less than 10% have cell phones, and coverage is spotty, unreliable and low rate.

Africa is waiting for the web like dolphins are waiting for a subway.

The people who think Africa really needs the web are mostly the people who stand to profit from selling it to them. Much of what did get sold would never be put to use -- it'd get resold or just sit and rot, the money gone to the corrupt governments, agencies and companies that were supposed to provide it to people the majority of whom couldn't afford it anyway.

Re:What Good It Is

[trosenbl]

Africa is waiting for the web like dolphins are waiting for a subway.

That's funny. A+

Re:What Good It Is

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh wow. I'll take this comment as representative of the many "Africa needs clean water... but not the internet. Oh no. Never." posts. Your preconceptions are, well, disgusting. Your ignorance is astounding. Your lack of insight is startling.

Reason for better intarwebs No 1:
In order to make Africa more homogenous in terms of basic services (without aid, thanks), someone has to pay tax. In order to pay tax people have to earn money. In order to earn money, companies have to be competitive. In order for any modern organisation to be globally competitive it needs good communications (intra- and inter-). Do you think Mark Shuttleworth made Thawte (Verisign) what it is using a lantern and morse code?

Reason for better intarwebs No 2:
Political instability is fing up Africa. Ignoring all of those guns and bullets that the helpful Yanks sell us, the biggest contributor to instability is ignorance. Ignorance that there is a better way. Ignorance that people can help themselves. Ignorance that there is a benefit to literacy and education. Why does a coffee grower need to read? Why does a coffee grower with an internet connection need to read? See, different. Access to internet will create a surge in the desirability and access to education. Education leads to activism where necessary and the potential for self-help.

Reason for better intarwebs No 3:
So that African Chemical Engineering PhDs can get online and refute your utterly moronic post.

How can an American company get involved?

[esmith334]

I represent a group of African Americans who are interested in providing telecommunications services to Africa, particularly East and Central Africa. Just last week we discussed the possibility of laying fiber optic cable along the East Coast of Africa. Who do we have to see to make this happen? Does anyone know? Should we approach private companies or the U.S. Commerce Department? Where is a good source for raising funds for what is obviously a huge and expensive undertaking? Is there another way around fiber optics and satellite services?

Re:How can an American company get involved?

[smchris]

Not to start off too negatively but make sure you have warm relationships and firm understandings with the "Commerce Departments" of the African nations involved from the beginning as well. _They_ should be your central concern and you didn't mention that, right? You might look at the example of the British do-gooder who started the FreePlay solar/crank radio plant in Cape Provence. Initially, he had a lot of trouble with regulations from South Africa in getting the plant operational and then he found out that many African countries aren't particularly eager to support media access for its citizens. The radios ended up being more successful with American boaters, campers and grillers.

"Africa" is a broad generalization but I wouldn't underestimate the latter point even in this day -- particularly in central Africa. Sure, we can get magazines imported into the U.S. like New African -- but where were they actually printed? Even publishing is a surprisingly small native industry. South Africa didn't get television until the 70s for gosh sakes -- for the same reasons of political censorship as similarly repressive black African countries. The truth standard has been BBC shortwave for decades and I think there is still a lot of hostility from governments when you tell them you want to introduce "your truth" from the outside instead of the truth they give their people. Bless their innocent little minds, perhaps because of the standard the BBC has set for plain spoken truth, I'm not sure this "you vs. us" mentality is the worst evil. I don't believe even South Africa started broadly using sophisticated Madison Avenue techniques like "It's an implicit message that it's your own fault you're a real loser if you aren't [insert billboard of affluent Soweto living room enjoying KWV wine]" until the last years of apartheid. I'm just saying don't underestimate the need to clearly and directly sell the benefits of access to the governments involved as well as address their fears about introducing a new data channel into their countries and form some firm relationships in doing so. And do it early because it will greatly increase your credibility when looking for resources.

Just offshore cable to a hub? Or are you going in-land? Be aware of African's challenges. One reason Africa is skipping copper and going wireless is that the people will strip the copper off the poles as fast as you can put it up, right? Just look at all the horrible gas line explosions in Nigeria as people tap into pipelines to collect buckets of gas. Things like that that we can't imagine here.

Looks like you are still brainstorming and data gathering. Aside from contact with the African countries involved, check out a good business library (with access to business information databases) and that should help you put together your business plan that will direct you toward the people you need to contact. And an adequately detailed plan means you have the base to present to them.

Re:How can an American company get involved?

[esmith334]

Thanks so much! I really hadn't looked at it from that perspective. You've given me a lot to think about -- more than I had hoped. Thanks again. And yes, we are still in the brainstorming and data gathering stage. When we get it all together, I'll look you up in hopes that you will do some consulting work for us.

Re:How can an American company get involved?

[flyingfsck]

You have to talk to the government departments of Telecommunication in Portugal and South Africa. The cable runs hook into the European net in Lisbon and runs down to Milnerton near Cape Town City. The cost of the cables are shouldered mainly by South Africa and Portugal, with some money thrown in by Nigeria. Maintenance is done by the Cable Restorer ship operated by the South African Department of Telecommunications. At least, that is how it used to be, when I worked there long ago.

Re:How can an American company get involved?

[esmith334]

Thanks again. I have a lot to work with now, much more than I had before I started.

Re:How can an American company get involved?

[datnigga]

there are at least 3 planned undersea cables that I know of...I think Eassy is probably the one furthest along.
Start there.

Re:How can an American company get involved?

[AfricaHigherEducatio]

Right now there are four competing proposals to lay cable along East Africa. The surveys have been completed for one proposal and contracted for others, but no cable has been laid yet. The ownership structure of those cables is not yet decided, or at least not yet clear. I'm curating a website on African higher education that includes a long discussion of internet issues, see www.arp.harvard.edu/AfricaHigherEducation/ and links therefrom. There's a link to the e-journal Balancing Act run out of Britain that provides probably the best updates on the situation. There are also links to commentary by many people, including Eric Osiakwan, the current head of the African Internet Service Providers Association (based in Ghana). If you need contact information for people, let us know (AfricaHigherEducation@huarp.harvard.edu) EJM

Re:How can an American company get involved?

[esmith334]

Yes, we certainly do need contact information, especially in Ghana, where we have a chapter of our affiliate organization, Order of Kush International, an international honor society devoted to the study and appreciation of Africa. Please go to our website (http://www.orderofkush.org/) to get a better idea of what we are all about. Thank you.

Take up the green man's burden

[Anonymous Coward]

From Bonobo Conspiracy, something for the "let's deal with the basics before bringing them the Net" crowd:

Centauri: Hey, should we donate to this project? They're sending fusion reactors, atmospheric scrubbers, and medical nanobots to Earth.
Altair: That seems pretty frivolous when so many Terrans lack even the basics.

Altair: The age of consent is endemic on Earth, most regions have a sodomy law, and virginity is not unknown.
Altair: We should help solve their real problems instead of wasting money on technology that they wouldn't know how to use anyway.

Centauri: You're right. It's immoral to impose our cultural values on people who are struggling under those conditions.

OLPC?

[Jim Hall]

The nytfeed provides us with an article about the current state of internet connectivity on the African continent. Only 4 percent of Africa's population has regular access to the internet, with most of those people living in North African countries, or the country of South Africa. This might seem like a market ripe for development, but the article explains that there are numerous difficulties involved getting an infrastructure project off the ground.

But, didn't we just send a bunch of internet-enabled laptops there?

Posting From "AFRICA"

[spanner8]

First of all I have to say I find the ignorance of some of the replies here quite discusting. May I remind people here the Africa is a continent with many entirely separate nations not all of which are poor or wartorn. Having said that I am in Zambia. I am posting off a 256K radio link broadband connection that costs $100/month (Its worth it if only for International Skype calls). The downside is the latency because the ISP uses vsat links. There is no access to coastline fiber because we are landlocked and hooking up to a coastline countries network requires a hell of alot of politicall will. The main issue is few people inderstand the value of the internet aside from the occasional e-mail. Meanwhile we have 5 competing cell phone providers charging ridiculous rates and raking in the $$$. The political response is usually "we have people starving and dying in the villages so why worring about internet access." Never mind the fact that local businesses can't compete on the global market without internet and thus the place never improves.

You forgot rockets against civilians...

[BerntB]

Hamas use rockets to target civilians, which is active terrorism.

Hamas use antisemitic propaganda -- for instance, The Protocols of Zion which was a large inspiration for Mein Kampf (which sells well in the Arab World, by the way).

When some Austrian nuts was in the government, Austria were isolated. Even that party would never have thought of using Nazi-inspired antisemitic propaganda.

Of course the prime example of hypocricy in our time [...]

Let us see... A country in the EU was isolated (with lots of administrative problems) without much complaints. Lots of the people that didn't complain about that argue that nazi inspired terrorists which are hundreds of times worse should be accepted? I think I have another nomination for the worst case of double standards than you...

You have realized that all countries have double standards in their foreign policy and lie about it? (-: You are a bit slow or quite young, aren't you? :-) "Realpolitik" isn't exactly news. Sure, it was even worse during the Cold War.

Re:You forgot rockets against civilians...

[TapeCutter]

"Hamas use rockets to target civilians, which is active terrorism."

Israel regularly fire hellfire missles into the most densley populated area on earth, Israeli snipers have shot many reporters and even school children sitting at their desk, Israeli armoured bulldozers are used for collective punishment or simply clear and steal the land for new settlements, sewerage, water and electrical infrastructure is deliberately destroyed with explosives, shit they even used tanks to rob a palestinian bank and demolish a local zoo while the animals were still in their cages - state sponsored terrorisim or war crimes, take your pick.

Hamas use antisemitic propaganda.

And....? Everybody in international politics uses anti-"the other guy" propoganda, what's the moral difference between Iran denying the holocaust and Israel denying a different 20th century genocide? - Don't answer, it's a trick question - they are both playing politics. Yes the holocaust was beyond doubt the most highly organised example of hatred seen in the 20th centrury but what has that got to do with Israel creating an open air jail for several million people just because they want to keep the demographics of their "jewish state"..well..jewish? (Before you answer by accusing me of also being an anti-semitic: I have both jewish and muslim friends.)

"When some Austrian nuts was in the government, Austria were isolated."

And....? If you read my post I said the same strategy has been used over and over again, also which particular "Austrian nuts" were you thinking of?

"Let us see..."

Leave me out of it, the comment that follows that quote reads like a cryptic crossword - if you have something to say then say it in plain english instead of beating around the bush so much that it devolves into gibberish.

"You have realized that all countries have double standards in their foreign policy...."

At least you understood the last line of my post.

"....and lie about it?"

Lie about what? - I agree with that statement...oh look, is that your strawman I see going up in flames? OTOH: If you think I am factually incorrect please point out where and state your sources without calling me a liar.

"(-: You are a bit slow or quite young, aren't you? :-)"

I forgive your crude attempts at insulting me because english is obviously not your strong point, and at 48 I'm probably old enough to be your farther.

"Sure, it was even worse during the Cold War."

Like I said I am 48 and lived thru vietnam, the bay city rollers, and most of the cold war including the duck-and-cover exercises in a 1960's primary school. The basic "modus operandi" hasn't changed a bit - all these bullshit wars and tin-pot dictators are simply proxies so that the veto-weilding members of the UNSC don't have to fight each other directly. Think about it and read up on why the UNSC was created in the first place, if I'm wrong then why would the CIA train OBL in the art of "creative chaos", why would the west supply Saddam with fighter jets?

The only reason Hamas has been sent to coventry, despite being elected by a "landslide" that was judged "fair and open" by the UN and other observers, is that Hamas doesn't have a veto-weiling sponser in the UNSC. The isolation certainly can't be because they are "terrorists" since the west has far more objectionable "friends". It seems to me that Hamas was supposed to dissapear into obscurity after the popular vote but since they inconvienently won in a democratic landslide the UNSC have cut them off from the outside world and ignored the consequences for a couple of million civilians. I'm betting they will continue to do so until the palestinians do as they are

Re:Out of Africa...

[The One and Only]

Racist? Where did you get the notion that there is only one race in Africa? Africa is a very diverse continent, just like Asia, with hundreds of races...

...and you're bigoted against them all.

SA Connected ...

[MyGirlFriendsBroken]

... It may well be, but it doesn't have the bandwidth. I'm from the UK and essentially work for the EMEA region of my employer as a consultant, which has resulted in my last 3 trips being 2 to SA and one to Israel. While there may well be internet in these countries, the bandwidth just isn't there, to the point where Yahoo mail breaks, and facebook, my VPN, Google mail, and I really wouldn't try to watch anything on YouTube.

So, it may be great to get everyone connected, but they will be on a different tier of Internet from a functionality perspective, and I am not sure that SA needs this right now, let alone the whole continent of Africa.

Not africa's biggest problem-Outsourcing

[Anonymous Coward]

"That's arguable, as is the importance of Internet access to Africa. I mean, after all, India is one of the most bitterly poor countries in the world, but their technical infrastructure has improved the lives of many people there and is bringing the country out of the third world and into a modernized society. Maybe Internet access in Africa will have similar results."

Yes, sending India our jobs was the smart thing to do. Just look at how well it's working for China. Maybe we should give Africa a try?

Re:Not africa's biggest problem-Outsourcing

[KingSkippus]

Word of advice: If you have a problem with jobs being sent to India, don't blame the Indians. Blame the people who are responsible: American companies. Blaming the Indians (or the Chinese, Africans, or anyone else) is a silly waste of time.

Re:Not africa's biggest problem-Outsourcing

[Anonymous Coward]

Clue for you. It's not the technical infrastructure that got India were it is. It was the jobs going overseas that did it. The infrastructure followed after.

Re:Not africa's biggest problem-Outsourcing

[KingSkippus]

Because when I think of places to outsource jobs to, the first place I think of are places with no technical infrastructure, right? I have an idea, let's just skip over Africa, which has probably millions of computers and thousands of competent, qualified computer technicians and programmers, and just outsource to Antarctica.

India made a concerted effort that took many years to get up to speed. It wasn't all just thrown together after the mythical Great Outsourcing, the technical infrastructure existed first. It's been building up since, but if it hadn't been for some wise people realizing what it took to convince companies to outsource there (i.e. a technical infrastructure) and building it, it never would have happened and they wouldn't have come.

Sounds like I'm not the one that needs a clue.

Not africa's biggest problem-Telephones.

[Anonymous Coward]

"Had participating cooperatives in Ethiopia had the communications infrastructure to see just how well they had done in the first auction, they would have participated in the second"

And how is the Internet going to be of benefit compared to the telephone when both run on the same infrastructure? And if you do find this life-saving communications infrastructure? Then it will benefit voice as well as Internet with lesser demands being placed on both ends compared to the latter.

Worse Broadband Than Australia?

[Crypto Gnome]

I must say it's amazing to find there's even one country with a worse broadband deployment than Australia.

Oddly enough their deep well of pain and suffering is due to exactly the same problems we are struggling with here in Down Under land.

the cable was supposed to provide cheaper and faster Web access, but so far that has not happened. Prices remain high because the national telecommunications linked to the cable maintain a monopoly over access, squeezing out potential competitors.
No surprises there.

Been There, Done That.

Still have the scars to prove it.

Still hoping one day we'll have a government interest in waking our country up from THIS NEVERENDING NIGHTMARE.

Re:Out of Africa...

[flyingfsck]

Actually, I am an African.

Infrastructure?-PDA

[Anonymous Coward]

"OS. Given a PC, most people are going to want Windows. That expense can be spared with mobile phones, where there isn't yet an entrenched OS tax."

Mobile PC like the iPaq, or the palm PDA, and the latest contender iPhone.

Re:Out of Africa...

[The One and Only]

That's hardly a counterargument, there are just as many people who hate their own race as there are people who hate other races--and if I grew up seeing Africa in the state it's in now, I would probably have a low opinion of its people as well. But your original remark is still just plain idiotic, and I have no desire to concede anything otherwise. Africa had thriving civilizations when my ancestors were freezing to death in the woods of Germany and North America. At the time it was my ancestors' bad luck to be that far from home. Things have neatly reversed themselves for now, but nothing is permanent.

Nothing but ignorant drivel

[SIInudeity]

Reading comments from I'm assuming mostly Americans... You have no right on assuming what is best for Africa. Africa needs more internet connectivity. A global voice to tap into. A lot of comments about Nigerians and 419ers as well. You only assume that is what its going to be used for, and assume that Africans cannot help themselves. My only comment about internet already available, is that its too expensive. $60 a month for a 3gig account, line rental etc. pathetic. Which is mostly to blame on privatized companies running it for profit or share prices. Public enemy nr. 1 being Telkom http://www.telkomsa.net/.

Re:Nothing but ignorant drivel

[xhydra]

Get used to it. Man 99% of all posts on slashdot these days are -half witted jokes -drivel -gramar corrections -flames

Re:Nothing but ignorant drivel

[SIInudeity]

But I thought most of the kids moved to digg? Are they trying to win the numbers back?

South africa no internet haven

[mr_musan]

if any of you are thinking that the RSA is a haven for internet thing again! the website

Well in Ghana...

[EvanTaylor]

Ghana Telecom is now destroying competition with their new DSL service. I just got it hooked up to the school im doing a project for and it is not what was advertised as far as speed goes, but is a major improvement over the previous 600 USD a month 64kbps ISDN over radio connection from Africa Online (perhaps the worst provider in Ghana at the moment). We currently pay 90 USD a month for about 300kbps DSL (supposed to be 2mbit, but we aren't in the capital where 2mbit is working, we are 150miles north or so where the service just came out).

Yes we are on the west coast, and are a former British colony with natural resources, but the problems discussed in the article are pretty much standard anywhere in Africa. Lets take a very advanced technology and impliment it before we have roads, reliable water or reliable electrical power. I arrived in Ghana 1 month after load shedding started (due to either poor management/lack of maintenance of the Akosombo Dam, or slight drought conditions the year before), the school I am at has expanded a bit more than it should have, so we had some water problems (although the whole village has had water problems, due to boreholes not being dug deep enough), so I experienced first hand both sides of Mr. Wyler's plight.

Africa Online is the most horrible service I can imagine, their squid transparent proxy cache server has craches several times, their DNS server's barely function, and their routing is faster when their main fibre connection fails and the backup satellite connection is switched to. They have been here for 10 years or so, and charge customers through the nose as they were the only game in town. Now they have a huge amount of competition and will learn very quickly they need to upgrade, repair, and plan new network expansion.

On the other side, getting Ghana Telecom DSL was a massive pain, 3 months after being told "Next week" they would come for installation (this is common, it is referred to as Ghana Maybe time, or GMT for short). But when we finally got it, the service isn't up to spec, but just by having a decent (new) network, and working DNS servers it is a thousand times better, and they do seem to be attempting to fix their problems. Also, saving over 500 USD a month is very nice, over 6000 USD a year.

Now my computer lab has the best internet connection in probably 100 miles or more, and is offering something not really available before to the children. Google Earth functions now, kids can download videos of their favorite hip hop artists on youtube, and can upload art/other stuff to community sites like flickr/deviant art/etc. There is definitely a tech boom here in Ghana.

Now if only I didn't have electricity off tomorrow from 6am to 6pm.

Don't romanticize the poor Africans

[elrous0]

Well, as has been pointed out before, when given the tools, the poor downtrodden usually end up using them for much less noble purposes.

At least be an entertaining troll

[BerntB]

Israel regularly fire hellfire missles into the most densley populated area on earth

First, the discussion was Hamas' behaviour -- which you defended because they haven't done one specific type of terrorism for a while. (The reason for that is debated; the Israelis seems to claim it is their wall, based on some interview with Haniya(?) in Egypt.)

So I pointed out that wasn't a serious argument -- so now you "argue" that Hamas isn't doing terrorism by changing the subject and claiming someone else isn't perfect!! As intellectually dishonest as your first "argument".

(Your claim was debatable; the IDF more or less follow the war laws and don't target civilians explicitly. They can't choose the battleground and Palestinians hit civilians in Gaza, too. Sure, there are quite a number of cases of criticism, yes.)

I'm not going to answer your defense of extreme racism and (that like Mel Gibson et al) you have Jewish friends. It is just too low quality -- at least be an entertaining troll. (I didn't bother reading after finding bad arguments and bad trolling in the beginning -- it seemed to be some personal insults and some conspiracy theories.)

Re:At least be an entertaining troll

[TapeCutter]

You have totally missed the point again and continue to put words in my mouth. I am not "defending Hamas" I am putting forward FACTS that are not often heard in the West.

"Your claim was debatable"

So go ahead and debate it with facts and sources instead of making up shit that you think proves whatever point you are rambling on about.

"it seemed to be some personal insults"

Look back at the thread, you are the one who brought insults to the "debate".

"entertaining troll"

How is the fact that both Iran and Israel use denial of genocide for political propoganda a troll?

Face it, you are the "racists", you are incapable of seeing both sides of the story without "taking sides" and that my friend is why the world is so fucked up.

What Africans think about this issue

[AfricaHigherEducatio]

I think before this discussion gets too heated that posters might stop and ask what people in Africa think about this issue. They are the ones who count, right? And they're not posting on Slashdot because most of them won't take the time to read all 242 comments because they're paying half a days wages already for an hour at an internet cafe.

I taught in Africa in 2006, and I can tell you that I never met a single English-speaking person who did not have a yahoo account, including a Maasai guide in tribal robes who had to walk and hitchhike 40 km to get to a town with an internet cafe. People are desperate for connection. Wouldn't you be?

My students (from all over Africa) and I put together a website on universities in Africa in general and internet issues in particular. That website was some of the background material for the New York Times article. It's at www.arp.harvard.edu/AfricaHigherEducation/. If you go to "student voices" you can read my students' stories and opinions.

The website has several goals beyond bringing the students' voices. One goal is to help explain WHY communications are so expensive in Africa, because of predatory pricing by cable monopolies (and it's worth remembering that some 30% of the ownership of African cables are held by multinationals, including AT&T and France Telecom). Costs are high because, as the NYT article said, governments are too weak to regulate properly and operators charge what they can. If you want to help Africa, write your Congressman and ask for World Bank funding for a second cable, based on an Open Access model. For $250 million you can revolutionize telecommunications in East Africa. That's nothing compared to most infrastructure projects, absolutely nothing.

The second meta-goal of the website was to puncture the false impression that many well-meaning people pick up from the media, that Africans are somehow special and exotic and in need of special treatment. No country, it's worth remembering, has ever developed because of foreign aid. Countries all develop through building business and industry and trade. Rememeber that 200 years ago there were famines in Sweden too. Why are so many Americans in the Midwest blonde? Because peasants in Scandinavia were desperately poor and they left by the boatfull. The best way to help African countries now is to treat them as you would any other countries that are poor, yes, but growing fast (6% per year in sub-Saharan Africa right now), and with the same demands, needs, and desires as anyone else. The greatest help we can do for Africa is to promote that growth.

EJM

SAT 3 is not the only connection.

[eldaria]

I'm looking at our Network Map here showing Sea cables around the world. (Dated 2004) As far as I can see following cables connect to Africa: Sat-3/WASC (40Gb) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAT-3 SAFE (30Gb) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAFE_(cable_system) SeaMeWe-3 (20Gb), http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SEA-ME-WE_3_(cable_sy stem) FLAG (10Gb), http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiber-Optic_Link_Arou nd_the_Globe ALPAL-2 (160Gb), http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ALPAL-2_(cable_system ) Agreed that for multiple connections, SAT-3 is the only one, but it is not the only one connecting Africa.

I am out of here

[BerntB]

You have totally missed the point again and continue to put words in my mouth. I am not "defending Hamas" I am putting forward FACTS that are not often heard in the West.

You wrote from the beginning: [Western leaders] actively seek to destroy [democracy] [...] The odd thing is that Hamas has kept it's word and has not used suicide bombers for over 3 years.

My first point out that Hamas were still doing terrorism (rocket artillery targeting civilians) so not using suicide bombers is irrelevant. Active terrorists have problems to be accepted -- and Hamas isn't accepted by EU either.

Your "answer" was to compare unaimed rockets against civilians with someone else using rockets against militants that target civilians -- both totally irrelevant and an apples/oranges cmparision. Now you again claim that was relevant?!

My second point was that Hamas used extreme nazi-inspired racism in their propaganda. I pointed out that an established democracy was isolated for at least 100 times less than Hamas, which you just joked about (you might just be unaware; google for e.g. diplomatic isolation haider austria). The Austria example show that there is no democracy problem in isolating democracies.

To be totally clear:
Either of those two points is enough to motivate that Hamas is isolated internationally. Both are obvious points and you have failed to address them twice now, so I am out of here. You're a troll or a propaganda machine -- both are wasted time.

Btw, your "unknown facts" sound just like more left wing Chomskyism, which seem as crazy as the US right wing.

(And I agree -- Hamas will come in from the cold in five seconds if they are needed... think Pakistan in 2001. Realpolitik is the guiding principle for every country and they all lie about it. If there is no money or other interests involved, democracies are usually quite principled.)

Re:I am out of here

[TapeCutter]

Pakistan "came in from the cold" (they have always been US allies?) because they obtained nukes and the means to deliver them.

You keep telling me what my original point was but you still don't get it so I will repeat it:

"The treatment Hamas has recieved from the EU & US clearly demonstrates what western leaders think about the spread of democracy. They don't mearly fail to recognise "the right of Hamas to exist" they actively seek to destroy it..."

Your failure to look past the labels "terrorist" and "democracy" has lead you into a confused rant about Nazi's and the EU. PEOPLE are arseholes to other PEOPLE regardless of the colour of their skin, the charm of their religion, or any other label they wear or have placed apon them by others.

"google for..."

Fuck off, if you have a point to make then YOU do the googling and provide a link.

The UNSC has saved us all from nuclear holocaust, but at the same time it is responsibe for much of the strife we continue to see in every corner of the globe. It is trully a "double edge sword".

"Realpolitik is the guiding principle for every country and they all lie about it."

If by Realpolitik you mean the unprincipled pursuit of power & greed, then yes that is exactly what I have been saying all along. Yet you still insist that it's ok for Isreal to collectively punish several million impoverished Palesinians because voting for Hamas is support for "terrorists"?

Finally, read my sig and contemplate which cage you are living in.

Re:Out of Africa...

[Anonymous Coward]

He meant to say, he's South Afrikaan so his racism is just taken. The sky is blue. Grass is green. South Afrikaans are racist.