I'm talking about the lag between the "stop pushing" command being issued and the muscles responding (reflex time). It's the same as another post pointed out, you can catch a bit of paper between your thumb and finger if you control the drop but not if someone else does.
There is no way to overcome the ~0.25 sec time lag between the brain's "command" and the muscles movement it's simply a limitation imposed by the speed of a signals propogation down a nerve, sure there is plenty of anaylisis going on that is subject to a "veto command" but once an action is chosen it becomes a "command" that the muscles will execute in ~0.25 sec from the time it was "decided" (ie: in the future). Once the "command" has been issued it cannot be "revoked" by a veto command, any new information (OMG keys) will not result in any variation to muscle movements for ~0.25 seconds (normal reflexes).
Watching your hand close the boot lid as you see the keys is like watching a golf ball sail toward the lake, you can see what's about to happen but there is no way to stop it. Similarly you can't stop your hand pushing down for another 0.25sec, unfortunately this is usually enough time to complete the action. When you are in a life threatening situation the planning stage goes into overdrive and everything appears to be in slow motion as you brain frantically trys to take it all in, but no matter how fast it works it still takes 0.25sec for the average driver to react because of the signal propogation thing.
When we are born (maybe even before) we must learn from experience to predict what will happen 0.25sec into the future, and that's just to walk and chew gum. Humans are slow at learning how to control body movements when compared to other mammals but I think that's because we are busy learning other things such as language and how our hands work (watch any baby, they are fascinated with their own hands).
When you watch your own fingers touch the sensation seems to happen at the same instant you see them touch, there is no apparent lag. Yet the information from the different senses does not reach the brain at the same time, the visual information has had ample time to have been processed while the touch information is still working it's way through the nervous system, synconizing the two senses into one "simultaneous reality" is a trully remarkble trick of the mind IMHO.
People have had the choice for years and they have generally chosen to pollute "someone else's" country, river, suburb, beach,... Too much "choice" can sometimes be no "choice" at all.
"Not really, because you can't save anyone from cancer except by killing them with something else first."
I agree it is all about percived and real risks. Having said that, you post is pursuasive but illogical, if you disagree then can you tell me exactly how is one killed by fire when they have been killed by something else?
IMHO, the difference here is that cancer is considered a natural death whereas "death by fire" is considered a preventable death.
"Other than the fact that EU Theory is against-the-mainstream, there are very few similarities between creationism and EU Theory."
Read the words that you quoted, because your reply (quoted above) has nothing to do with it nor did I say anything like that. What it was was sarcasm revolving around the fact that creationisim and ID amount to the same thing in different words, as I assume the electric sky/sun/universe books/theories/myths do.
As for the rest of your rant: Creationists are but one group amoungst a wide variety of anti-science groups.
I agree, the brain is constantly predicting the muscle movements that will be required ~0.25 seconds into the "future". The communication lag between hand and eye becomes aparent when you see your keys in the boot as you are closing the lid. Even though you brain screams stop your hand keeps pushing for that split second too long, the prediction was wrong and the brain had no way to cancel the "close the lid" command. The "illusion" of time can also be demonstrated when you are in fear of your life such as during a car accident the driver will often expeience a slow motion effect as their brain goes into hyperdrive looking for a way out.
I agree that Gitmo is a modern day "abberation" and maybe there are some inmates who should never see the light of day but as the (new) US secratary of defence says, it's reputation has sunk so low that it will never be viewed as legitamate.
As a particular example of injustice at gitmo, the handling of David Hicks has been nothing short of the US administration and the Australian government turning a hapless fool who they "puchased" from the northern aliance for $1000 into a high profile scapegoat for their "terrorists under the bed" propoganda.
"Just because you linked to some detention center site doesn't prove anything along these lines."
I agree that sites lobbying one point of view are hard to take seriously. I have tried to link to reputable sources (the SMH leans right, the Age leans left, both are major papers in Oz) I have also had the chance to compare the information to what the people involved were actually saying/doing. The issue has been (and still is) a big deal over here, just prior to the "trial" there was a live one hour debate on TV between Hicks miltary lawyer, military prosecuter, the Aussie AG, Hicks parents and other involved and interested parties in the audience.
The defence lawyer was nothing short of fucking brilliant and completely demolished both the AG and the prosecutor with their own words. That one defence lawyer's passion for justice (as we commonly understand it in the west), did more for US foriegn policy than your government has done since the Indonesian tsunami. Sadly it is quite likely he also flushed his own military career down the toilet at the same time.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not as my government would have it a "Hicks supporter". I support the basic foundations of western law and those foundations are not available to gitmo inmates unless your own government is willing to stick up for you (as the UK and every other western nation except Australia did for their citizens after the US supreme court's decision).
Yes I did get the title wrong but you are splitting hairs, the plasmas.org site credits Scott with both the book and the hypothisis so I assumed they are related in a similar way as creationisim is related to ID.
"It fails to address..."
Tim has probably got better things to do with his time, at least until his current objections have been answered.
We don't have that many bumbble bees in Australia, but I have seen them in the UK and found them fasinating. And yes we spray vast areas for locusts in plague years, we also have mobile phones and some GM crops, we no longer regularly spray for mosquitos. There is still a wide variety of bugs and birds all over the place and AFAIK our bees are ok?
To be fair about locusts, it is only done in plague years with the aim being to reduce the size of the next plague, they spray directly on the swarms (a dark "ground fog" that is measured in kilometers). When a swarm of locus passes by there is not much left execpt birds picking off the ordinary bugs that have been striped of their hiding places.
The CSIRO have looked at natural predators that attack the long underground larvae stage and other ideas with no luck so far. Although they should keep looking, I don't belive they will find an answer since the locusts survival strategy is to allow predators to gourge themselves for days and still not make a significant dent on their numbers.
If you are so eager to be a skeptic then start testing YOUR ideas and acknowledging their known flaws. If you do have the courage to test your convictions you will also notice that these "established scientists" are actively looking at alternatives to the big bang that involve plasma, including those that appear in popular science.
No you haven't, you missed the bit about self criticisim being the skeptics starting point.
"It's generally accepted that funding only goes to the BB studies...it did not earn him any funding...NASA would rather fund traditional explanations for our cometary data that have produced no predictions whatsoever (or even a coherent theory of how comets work)...Carl Sagan wasn't scared to take a hypocritical stance in order to "prove" a point...I prefer people who invest a little less emotion in their interpretation and arguments, and who are willing to admit to being wrong. I don't see that character trait much in the mainstream astrophysicists or the enthusiasts on these forums -- which is odd because, regardless of the fact that the mainstreamers have proven to be good labelers...When you're an against-the-mainstream theorist, it doesn't matter how amazing your theory is these days. The EU Theorists do not pay me to spend my free time trying to get people to read their materials. I do it purely out of goodwill because I've come to the realization that the only thing standing in the way of people realizing what these guys have accomplished is the barriers that people have raised to considering alternative theories. Every person that I convince to just read the materials will realize that these guys are onto something. I've already received appreciative letters from people suggesting as much....you guys have to realize that your beliefs in cosmology are the result of an intensive public relations campaign...Being scientists and programmers, slashdotters are not immediately privvy to the PR side of things...You are being inundated with materials that encourage you to support the status quo theories. It's up to you to turn your brain back on and start analyzing the data in an objective way....
I agree with the part I have highlighted, so much so that you have convinced me to ignore your emotional rants.
"You're not all-knowing, nor are you the center of the universe."
Exactly the reason I prefaced my one line post with the word "perhaps". Perhaps you should look up the meaning of "perhaps" before you accuse me of the self-centered arrogance of an inqusitor.
"So they burned those witches..."
Yes, many people throughout history have jumped to the wrong conclusion and have used their erroneous conclusions to enthusiastically denounced others. Your post demonstrates your willingness to join them.
"It's NASA's choice to interpret all observations through one single cosmology."
Most people with a scientific education would have stopped reading after the first line because it is a distortion of the truth based on total ignorance of how science and skepticisim work (and they do work!).
You have been duped/mislead and when/if you learn how to determine what is credible science you will be pissed off at those who duped you. A good place for you to start learning genuine skepticisim would be Carl Sagan's book "Demon haunted world".
He could have a point and GM plants that allow heavy use of herbicides are also a problem for wild insects. The sonner we learn how to turn dirt directly into food the better.
Yes some good has come of it, but many supporters have come to realise the means doesn't justify the end.
"However, unless you believe that a woman submitted to the taliban mullahs participated in an "inclusive" society, GWB took an important step *forward* to a more just society globally."
It's not a simple binary choice, objecting to GWB's agorgance does not mean I support the oppression of women.
"GWB's doctrine that a powerful contry is entitled to perform global law enforcement"
And here I was thinking GWB would never submit to international law?
"meanwhile the Islamic government of Sudan is performing genocide in Darfur"
The US has been on both sides there as well, 20yrs ago the tribes in the south were "terrorists" and the govt death squads were the "good guys". What is happening in Sudan is just another proxy war between members of the UNSC, most noteably the US and China.
In times of old a commoner's life was less secure. The lords of old had their own armys, armys are used to control territory regardless of who "owns" it (like many places in the world today). Although the lords eventually lost their private armies, mantraps were a legal symbol of disregard for commoner's that lasted well into the 1800's.
** caution rant ahead **
Edisons father tied him up and gave him a public arse flogging in the center of town when he was a child, that same act in the same town today would land his father in jail. When I was a kid black people couldn't vote, homo's deserved any beating they got, living together out of wedlock made you a social outcast, young and pregnant meant you had to give up your child for adoption so as not to shame your family, being a woman (or black or asian) meant I could pay you peanuts, harrass you at work, and sack you for not sucking my dick.
In a lot of ways we treat each other with more respect than we did even 50yrs ago, IMO the reason is because nation states are not that different to the fuedal lords of England and Europe who eventually worked out that beating the shit out of each other for the right to ransom each others nobility was counter-productive. I think GWB took us a step backwards but the historical trend toward a more and more "inclusive" society is hard to deny.
Heh, when I grew up boys were not allowed to do "home eco" or "typing" and girls were not allowed to do "shop" or "mechanical drawing". Their thinking was "what man would want to cook and what woman would want to weld"?
I still can't touch type, but typing speed is not a particularly important skill for a developer (OTOH: neither is welding).
Yeah, but my point was that the ABC (and SBS) here in Australia are consituted in a similar fashion to Britain's BBC, I very much doubt they would just answer "yes" to an enquiry about a legal matter. The three main commercial networks are a different story.
Get over the idea that "terrorists" are new, they have been with us since we started forming tribes and throwing rocks at each other.
As for machines that autonomusly kill humans, landmines and other such traps have been around for a long time. At one time land owners were allowed to set mantraps to catch poachers, now British troops have standing orders not to shoot at a fleeing enemy. On the whole I think we are becoming more civilized out of necessity since it has become apparent to everyone that it is suicidal for one powefull tribe to conqure another with force alone (UNSC vs Iran's supreme council anyone?).
Slashdot Mirror
I'm talking about the lag between the "stop pushing" command being issued and the muscles responding (reflex time). It's the same as another post pointed out, you can catch a bit of paper between your thumb and finger if you control the drop but not if someone else does.
There is no way to overcome the ~0.25 sec time lag between the brain's "command" and the muscles movement it's simply a limitation imposed by the speed of a signals propogation down a nerve, sure there is plenty of anaylisis going on that is subject to a "veto command" but once an action is chosen it becomes a "command" that the muscles will execute in ~0.25 sec from the time it was "decided" (ie: in the future). Once the "command" has been issued it cannot be "revoked" by a veto command, any new information (OMG keys) will not result in any variation to muscle movements for ~0.25 seconds (normal reflexes).
Watching your hand close the boot lid as you see the keys is like watching a golf ball sail toward the lake, you can see what's about to happen but there is no way to stop it. Similarly you can't stop your hand pushing down for another 0.25sec, unfortunately this is usually enough time to complete the action. When you are in a life threatening situation the planning stage goes into overdrive and everything appears to be in slow motion as you brain frantically trys to take it all in, but no matter how fast it works it still takes 0.25sec for the average driver to react because of the signal propogation thing.
When we are born (maybe even before) we must learn from experience to predict what will happen 0.25sec into the future, and that's just to walk and chew gum. Humans are slow at learning how to control body movements when compared to other mammals but I think that's because we are busy learning other things such as language and how our hands work (watch any baby, they are fascinated with their own hands).
When you watch your own fingers touch the sensation seems to happen at the same instant you see them touch, there is no apparent lag. Yet the information from the different senses does not reach the brain at the same time, the visual information has had ample time to have been processed while the touch information is still working it's way through the nervous system, synconizing the two senses into one "simultaneous reality" is a trully remarkble trick of the mind IMHO.
"let people make an informed choice"
People have had the choice for years and they have generally chosen to pollute "someone else's" country, river, suburb, beach,... Too much "choice" can sometimes be no "choice" at all.
"Not really, because you can't save anyone from cancer except by killing them with something else first."
I agree it is all about percived and real risks. Having said that, you post is pursuasive but illogical, if you disagree then can you tell me exactly how is one killed by fire when they have been killed by something else?
IMHO, the difference here is that cancer is considered a natural death whereas "death by fire" is considered a preventable death.
"Other than the fact that EU Theory is against-the-mainstream, there are very few similarities between creationism and EU Theory."
Read the words that you quoted, because your reply (quoted above) has nothing to do with it nor did I say anything like that. What it was was sarcasm revolving around the fact that creationisim and ID amount to the same thing in different words, as I assume the electric sky/sun/universe books/theories/myths do.
As for the rest of your rant: Creationists are but one group amoungst a wide variety of anti-science groups.
I agree, the brain is constantly predicting the muscle movements that will be required ~0.25 seconds into the "future". The communication lag between hand and eye becomes aparent when you see your keys in the boot as you are closing the lid. Even though you brain screams stop your hand keeps pushing for that split second too long, the prediction was wrong and the brain had no way to cancel the "close the lid" command. The "illusion" of time can also be demonstrated when you are in fear of your life such as during a car accident the driver will often expeience a slow motion effect as their brain goes into hyperdrive looking for a way out.
Well said, I would even go so far as to say that teenagers are somewhat hard wired to rebel against their parents social norms.
I agree that Gitmo is a modern day "abberation" and maybe there are some inmates who should never see the light of day but as the (new) US secratary of defence says, it's reputation has sunk so low that it will never be viewed as legitamate.
As a particular example of injustice at gitmo, the handling of David Hicks has been nothing short of the US administration and the Australian government turning a hapless fool who they "puchased" from the northern aliance for $1000 into a high profile scapegoat for their "terrorists under the bed" propoganda.
"Just because you linked to some detention center site doesn't prove anything along these lines."
I agree that sites lobbying one point of view are hard to take seriously. I have tried to link to reputable sources (the SMH leans right, the Age leans left, both are major papers in Oz) I have also had the chance to compare the information to what the people involved were actually saying/doing. The issue has been (and still is) a big deal over here, just prior to the "trial" there was a live one hour debate on TV between Hicks miltary lawyer, military prosecuter, the Aussie AG, Hicks parents and other involved and interested parties in the audience.
The defence lawyer was nothing short of fucking brilliant and completely demolished both the AG and the prosecutor with their own words. That one defence lawyer's passion for justice (as we commonly understand it in the west), did more for US foriegn policy than your government has done since the Indonesian tsunami. Sadly it is quite likely he also flushed his own military career down the toilet at the same time.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not as my government would have it a "Hicks supporter". I support the basic foundations of western law and those foundations are not available to gitmo inmates unless your own government is willing to stick up for you (as the UK and every other western nation except Australia did for their citizens after the US supreme court's decision).
Love the Boston restriction at the bottom of the page.
No, just another dissapointed Aussie who wants two of them.
Yes I did get the title wrong but you are splitting hairs, the plasmas.org site credits Scott with both the book and the hypothisis so I assumed they are related in a similar way as creationisim is related to ID.
"It fails to address..."
Tim has probably got better things to do with his time, at least until his current objections have been answered.
"Whenever anything happens today someone has to be blamed."
Yes, it's unfortunate and a tad crass that you have choosen to point your finger at "anti-gun pussies".
"Microsoft crying in its oatmeal"
Best summary, ever!
We don't have that many bumbble bees in Australia, but I have seen them in the UK and found them fasinating. And yes we spray vast areas for locusts in plague years, we also have mobile phones and some GM crops, we no longer regularly spray for mosquitos. There is still a wide variety of bugs and birds all over the place and AFAIK our bees are ok?
To be fair about locusts, it is only done in plague years with the aim being to reduce the size of the next plague, they spray directly on the swarms (a dark "ground fog" that is measured in kilometers). When a swarm of locus passes by there is not much left execpt birds picking off the ordinary bugs that have been striped of their hiding places.
The CSIRO have looked at natural predators that attack the long underground larvae stage and other ideas with no luck so far. Although they should keep looking, I don't belive they will find an answer since the locusts survival strategy is to allow predators to gourge themselves for days and still not make a significant dent on their numbers.
"The explanation has been provided."
But has failed to convince these guys who correctly categorise "The Electric Sky" as a popularization and point to an excellent critique of the book.
If you are so eager to be a skeptic then start testing YOUR ideas and acknowledging their known flaws. If you do have the courage to test your convictions you will also notice that these "established scientists" are actively looking at alternatives to the big bang that involve plasma, including those that appear in popular science.
"I've read enough of Carl Sagan..."
No you haven't, you missed the bit about self criticisim being the skeptics starting point.
"It's generally accepted that funding only goes to the BB studies...it did not earn him any funding...NASA would rather fund traditional explanations for our cometary data that have produced no predictions whatsoever (or even a coherent theory of how comets work)...Carl Sagan wasn't scared to take a hypocritical stance in order to "prove" a point...I prefer people who invest a little less emotion in their interpretation and arguments, and who are willing to admit to being wrong. I don't see that character trait much in the mainstream astrophysicists or the enthusiasts on these forums -- which is odd because, regardless of the fact that the mainstreamers have proven to be good labelers...When you're an against-the-mainstream theorist, it doesn't matter how amazing your theory is these days. The EU Theorists do not pay me to spend my free time trying to get people to read their materials. I do it purely out of goodwill because I've come to the realization that the only thing standing in the way of people realizing what these guys have accomplished is the barriers that people have raised to considering alternative theories. Every person that I convince to just read the materials will realize that these guys are onto something. I've already received appreciative letters from people suggesting as much....you guys have to realize that your beliefs in cosmology are the result of an intensive public relations campaign...Being scientists and programmers, slashdotters are not immediately privvy to the PR side of things...You are being inundated with materials that encourage you to support the status quo theories. It's up to you to turn your brain back on and start analyzing the data in an objective way....
I agree with the part I have highlighted, so much so that you have convinced me to ignore your emotional rants.
"You're not all-knowing, nor are you the center of the universe."
Exactly the reason I prefaced my one line post with the word "perhaps". Perhaps you should look up the meaning of "perhaps" before you accuse me of the self-centered arrogance of an inqusitor.
"So they burned those witches..."
Yes, many people throughout history have jumped to the wrong conclusion and have used their erroneous conclusions to enthusiastically denounced others. Your post demonstrates your willingness to join them.
"It's NASA's choice to interpret all observations through one single cosmology."
Most people with a scientific education would have stopped reading after the first line because it is a distortion of the truth based on total ignorance of how science and skepticisim work (and they do work!).
You have been duped/mislead and when/if you learn how to determine what is credible science you will be pissed off at those who duped you. A good place for you to start learning genuine skepticisim would be Carl Sagan's book "Demon haunted world".
He could have a point and GM plants that allow heavy use of herbicides are also a problem for wild insects. The sonner we learn how to turn dirt directly into food the better.
Yes some good has come of it, but many supporters have come to realise the means doesn't justify the end.
"However, unless you believe that a woman submitted to the taliban mullahs participated in an "inclusive" society, GWB took an important step *forward* to a more just society globally."
It's not a simple binary choice, objecting to GWB's agorgance does not mean I support the oppression of women.
"GWB's doctrine that a powerful contry is entitled to perform global law enforcement"
And here I was thinking GWB would never submit to international law?
"meanwhile the Islamic government of Sudan is performing genocide in Darfur"
The US has been on both sides there as well, 20yrs ago the tribes in the south were "terrorists" and the govt death squads were the "good guys". What is happening in Sudan is just another proxy war between members of the UNSC, most noteably the US and China.
Perhaps it's simply more to do with pesticide use, or is that too obvious.
"I don't see the grounds for comparison."
In times of old a commoner's life was less secure. The lords of old had their own armys, armys are used to control territory regardless of who "owns" it (like many places in the world today). Although the lords eventually lost their private armies, mantraps were a legal symbol of disregard for commoner's that lasted well into the 1800's.
** caution rant ahead **
Edisons father tied him up and gave him a public arse flogging in the center of town when he was a child, that same act in the same town today would land his father in jail. When I was a kid black people couldn't vote, homo's deserved any beating they got, living together out of wedlock made you a social outcast, young and pregnant meant you had to give up your child for adoption so as not to shame your family, being a woman (or black or asian) meant I could pay you peanuts, harrass you at work, and sack you for not sucking my dick.
In a lot of ways we treat each other with more respect than we did even 50yrs ago, IMO the reason is because nation states are not that different to the fuedal lords of England and Europe who eventually worked out that beating the shit out of each other for the right to ransom each others nobility was counter-productive. I think GWB took us a step backwards but the historical trend toward a more and more "inclusive" society is hard to deny.
Heh, when I grew up boys were not allowed to do "home eco" or "typing" and girls were not allowed to do "shop" or "mechanical drawing". Their thinking was "what man would want to cook and what woman would want to weld"?
I still can't touch type, but typing speed is not a particularly important skill for a developer (OTOH: neither is welding).
Yeah, but my point was that the ABC (and SBS) here in Australia are consituted in a similar fashion to Britain's BBC, I very much doubt they would just answer "yes" to an enquiry about a legal matter. The three main commercial networks are a different story.
"they are now a permenant part of war"
Get over the idea that "terrorists" are new, they have been with us since we started forming tribes and throwing rocks at each other.
As for machines that autonomusly kill humans, landmines and other such traps have been around for a long time. At one time land owners were allowed to set mantraps to catch poachers, now British troops have standing orders not to shoot at a fleeing enemy. On the whole I think we are becoming more civilized out of necessity since it has become apparent to everyone that it is suicidal for one powefull tribe to conqure another with force alone (UNSC vs Iran's supreme council anyone?).
From what I can figure the opposition stepped out of it's official "free speech zone" (located in Kasparov's basement).
"There is no bureaucracy to get in the way."
You have been mislead, China has had a large bureaucracy for the past 2000yrs regardless of who was running the show.