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Six-Dimensional Space-Time Theory

eldavojohn writes "PhysOrg is covering an interesting year-old paper that proposes an alternative six-dimensional theory of space and time. George Sparling's proposition, based on Einstein's general relativity and Elie Cartan's triality, is a twistor space (which I've only read of in Roger Penrose's latest work). The gist is that space-time is modeled not by four dimensions but by six, and that the extra two dimensions are time-like. Sparling is hoping that tests from the Large Hadron Collider will help prove his theory. The paper is heavy but the PhysOrg article summarizes it nicely."

330 comments

  1. No humsn has a right to think wrong! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    Time is four-dimensional, so there are 7 dimensions! So sayeth the TimeCube!

    1. Re:No humsn has a right to think wrong! by Dun+Malg · · Score: 3, Funny

      Time is four-dimensional, so there are 7 dimensions! So sayeth the TimeCube! Come on, you idiot mods! If ever there was an appropriate time to bring up timecube.com, this is it. Is it that it's the first post? Use your brain and actually critically examine the content of a post before modding, please. This isn't a GNAA troll, he didn't once say "frist post", "fust poost", or "frost piss" anywhere in the message body, and the TimeCube guy is a fairly old and well known example of what happens when you let a billion people put whatever they like on the internet.
      --
      If a job's not worth doing, it's not worth doing right.
    2. Re: No humsn has a right to think wrong! by Black+Parrot · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Time is four-dimensional, so there are 7 dimensions! So sayeth the TimeCube! Wouldn't TimeCube theory predict three dimensions of time rather than four, just as the scientists discovered?

      (I tried to look it up at the TimeCube page, but those who clicked the link will understand why I had trouble finding it.)
      --
      Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
    3. Re: No humsn has a right to think wrong! by porl · · Score: 5, Informative

      speaking as someone who *has* perused that wonderful piece of internet real estate, i can say quite confidently that the *only* thing that his 'theories' predict is that his 'theories' are important for predicting things. apparently his theories can be used to figure out how to cure cancer and stop violence too, but in his self acknowledged infinite wisdom he hasn't deemed it appropriate to tell us how yet. still, its fun for a laugh for a while :)

      for those who are still interested in such things, another site: fixedearth.com is similar, although it seems this guy has at least *tried* to do some research.

    4. Re: No humsn has a right to think wrong! by zwei2stein · · Score: 1

      Those who clicked the link will not understand why you even tried to look for it.

      --
      -- Technology for the sake of technology is as pathetic as eschewing technology because it's technology.
    5. Re:No humsn has a right to think wrong! by VanessaE · · Score: 1
      You know, I tried reading that page once... and failed miserably (guess that makes me a dumbass?)


      I've always wondered... aside from calling the guy a crackpot or similar, can someone translate that page into something that makes sense? The Wikipedia page on it doesn't really explain this guy's concept any more than it clearly explains quantum physics to the layperson (subatomic particles, I get, but quarks? fermions? wtf?)

    6. Re:No humsn has a right to think wrong! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, Quark's usually found on Deep Space Nine...

    7. Re: No humsn has a right to think wrong! by emurphy42 · · Score: 1

      fixedearth.com is similar, although it seems this guy has at least *tried* to do some research.
      "Less barking mad than Gene Ray" is not much of a defense. His research is shoehorned through an agenda of religious literalism, thus full of blind spots. For instance, he tries to write off parallax as due to the diameter of the earth, rather than the diameter of its orbit, thus nearby stars are about four orders of magnitude closer than mainstream science claims - but this fails to account for parallax observations made from the same location relative to the earth's surface, or for the period of oscillation being half a year rather than half a day. And if I can think of these things during a casual half-hour of web surfing, then he should damn well have thought of and addressed them during however many years he's sunk into this nonsense. Bonus points for also screwing up his translational history (according to one critic cited by Wikipedia), and mega bonus points for pointing fingers at an alleged anti-Christian conspiracy. I do agree with what I skimmed of his "non-Christians are not automatically going to hell" essay (there isn't any science in it for him to screw up).
    8. Re:No humsn has a right to think wrong! by AugstWest · · Score: 0, Troll

      YOU ARE EDUCATED STUPID!!!!!!

    9. Re:No humsn has a right to think wrong! by Bill,+Shooter+of+Bul · · Score: 1

      I think some physicist once said about quantum mechanics

      " If anyone says they understand quantum mechanics, its because they haven't thought about it enough"

      For the Time cube, I'd say

      " If any on says they understand the time cube, its because they're on crack"

      It really doesn't make any sense what so ever. Don't try. I first ran into it close to ten years ago. The guy posted some of his theory on the discovery channels website, which back then was full of people with crazy theories. I was a resident debunker, but this one can't really be debunked. Its more of a cult with out any followers, in that sense.

      --
      Well.. maybe. Or Maybe not. But Definitely not sort of.
    10. Re: No humsn has a right to think wrong! by 644bd346996 · · Score: 1

      I couldn't get as far as his discussion of parallax. I had to stop when it became evident that he doesn't want to understand what a reference frame is. His stuff seems comparable to trying to disprove the Pythagorean theorem by redefining the natural numbers to include the square root of 2.

    11. Re:No humsn has a right to think wrong! by Profane+MuthaFucka · · Score: 1

      I know that the Timecube page has the look of a rational, understandable theory, which could be important for all humankind if only we could understand it. Fortunately, I have superhuman intelligence, and I am capable of understanding it. And my understanding is that he made a math error somewhere rendering his theory complete gibberish.

      --
      Fascism trolls keeping me up every night. When I starts a preachin', he HITS ME WITH HIS REICH!
  2. According to the paper... by Shihar · · Score: 4, Funny
    I was reading the paper on this theory. I found this part VERY interesting. It is like my whole life has meaning now.

    Cubicism, Not group theory.
    If ignorant of the almighty
    Time Cube Creation Truth,
    you deserve to be killed.
    Killing you is not immoral -
    but justified to save life on
    Earth for future generations.
    Academic taught singularity
    within universe of opposites,
    has lobotomized your mind.
    You are Enslaved by Word -
    no whip or shackle required.
    You do not have the freedom
    to discuss/debate Time Cube.
    Academia destroys your mind
    by suppressing opposite view.
    God equals self masturbation
    of mind - for opposites create.
    You are educated singularities.
    YOU DESERVE DEATH -
    FOR SINGULARITY EVIL
    in the Universe of Opposites.
    No God Can Make Himself
    as singularity is death, not life.
    Planets nor human are entities
    as they equal Zero Opposites.
    You are educated singularity
    stupid and evil, unfit for life
    in the Universe of Opposites.
    1. Re:According to the paper... by mblase · · Score: 1

      You do not have the freedom
      to discuss/debate Time Cube.


      The Second Rule of Time Cube is, YOU DO NOT HAVE THE FREEDOM TO DISCUSS/DEBATE TIME CUBE.

  3. Oblig... by Bananatree3 · · Score: 1
    Hot damn! Zee Sixth Dimension!

    I bet you'll never guess which movie that came from (googling is cheating!)

    1. Re:Oblig... by SlowMovingTarget · · Score: 2, Funny

      Leonard Part 6? Lithgow was great in that... And the bit where Cosby drives through a mountain... priceless.

    2. Re:Oblig... by Guppy06 · · Score: 1

      Shot in the dark: Buckaroo Banzai

    3. Re:Oblig... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Forbidden Zone"

      Any movie that had Oingo Boingo perform the music for it isn't only memorable, it's indelible.

    4. Re:Oblig... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not only does Oingo Boingo do the music, but Danny Elfman plays Satan! What more could you ask for in a film?

    5. Re:Oblig... by smellsofbikes · · Score: 1

      What I found funny about that was that when Cosby drove through the mountain he was wearing this Futuristic Space Helmet that was actually a Bell Stratos bicycle helmet intended for time trial racers. I had one just like it only mine didn't have funny stuff painted on it. (Or at least not the same funny stuff that he had.)

      --
      Nostalgia's not what it used to be.
  4. Heavy paper. by chris_eineke · · Score: 4, Funny

    My god, it's full of time!

    --
    "All you have to do is be fragile and grateful. So stay the underdog." Chuck Palahniuk, Choke
    1. Re:Heavy paper. by mikael · · Score: 1

      Great, can you send some of it over here, we're running close to our deadlines...

      --
      Vintage computer adverts: http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads
  5. I'm ridin' spinors by tepples · · Score: 3, Funny

    Sparling wrote:

    In physics, the idea of a spinor stems from the finding that spectral lines of atoms seem to behave as if the angular momentum of the particles radiating photons was in half-integral units of the quantized spin (whose size is determined by Planck's constant). This was fully explained by Dirac's famous theory of the electron, which led him to successfully predict the existence of the positron.

    Or as Three 6 Mafia put it: "I'm ridin' spinors, I'm ridin' spinors, they don't stop..."

    1. Re:I'm ridin' spinors by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or as artsy-people are prone to put it, "Hey, let's hide our ignorance of this by applying our bad poetry skills to punning its name!"

    2. Re:I'm ridin' spinors by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Get the vernacular straight. Its "Spinna's"

      AC for obvious reasons.

    3. Re:I'm ridin' spinors by bersl2 · · Score: 1

      Also h

    4. Re:I'm ridin' spinors by Fifty+Points · · Score: 1

      *whoosh*

      Did you even read his post?

      --
      I'm in between insightful sigs right now...
    5. Re:I'm ridin' spinors by deadgoon42 · · Score: 1

      That's the Academy Award winning Three 6 Mafia...

      --

      Smeghead every day of the week.
    6. Re:I'm ridin' spinors by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And evidently soon to be Nobel Prize in Physics winning Three 6 Mafia. Clearly, it is much easier out here for a pimp than was previously advertised.

  6. Three time dimensions by Harmonious+Botch · · Score: 5, Funny

    Now there are three ways we can have dupes.

    1. Re:Three time dimensions by crazyvas · · Score: 5, Funny

      Now there are three ways we can have threeways.

    2. Re:Three time dimensions by cyphercell · · Score: 1

      Um, last time, this time and next time?

      --
      Under the influence of Post-Cyberpunk Gonzo Journalism
    3. Re:Three time dimensions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      Ah. That explains it. I'm caught in the "never" dimension of time. Not my fault then.

    4. Re:Three time dimensions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Now there are three ways we can have threeways. Actually, there are 4 ways to have a threeway -- but only 3 ways for a given individual. Males can be involved in FMF, MFM, or MMM. Females can be involved in MFM, FMF, or FFF.
  7. The Dig by Neillparatzo · · Score: 4, Interesting
    Wasn't 6-dimensional space-time covered in the LucasArts adventure game, The Dig?

    (watch me get modded down for mentioning Dig)

    1. Re:The Dig by Jarjarthejedi · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Wow...you called it. Though looking at that game it actually is pretty relevant. Don't know which mod thought to mod it troll...wish I had the mod points to undo it but hopefully it'll be noticed by someone who does.

      --
      There are two kinds of fool One says 'This is old therefore good' Another says 'This is new therefore better'- Dean Ing
    2. Re:The Dig by FFFish · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Dig was, and I mean this without exaggeration, fucking awesome.

      --

      --
      Don't like it? Respond with words, not karma.
    3. Re:The Dig by mapkinase · · Score: 1

      .. and watch you get modded up for misspelling it. I like your attitude to this pseudoscience

      --
      I do not believe in karma. "Funny"=-6. Do good and forbid evil. Yours, Oft-Offtopic Flamebaiting Troll.
    4. Re:The Dig by Corporate+Troll · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      Why would you get modded down for mentioning The Dig. It was a very cool game, and I'd really like to play it again...

      Knowing about The Dig actually confirms your nerd status... Being an old game that is quite obscure.

    5. Re:The Dig by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If I had mod points I would flag you as troll ...

    6. Re:The Dig by dpilot · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      Never did have time to finish The Dig. But a while back, I did at least fire it up under ScummVM, though I don't know how much of it works that way.

      --
      The living have better things to do than to continue hating the dead.
    7. Re:The Dig by Corporate+Troll · · Score: 1

      That means that you have a copy. I can't even say that. I played it at a friends place when CD-Rs were still very expensive and as such I could not make a copy.

      Apparently one can still buy it, but I'm not that desperate ;-)

    8. Re:The Dig by dpilot · · Score: 1

      Actually, there are 2 in the house. One I bought back in its day, the other came with a Lucas Arts Collection we bought for my son.

      --
      The living have better things to do than to continue hating the dead.
  8. 640k dimesions are enough! by EmbeddedJanitor · · Score: 4, Funny

    I just want to set an upper limit before everyone goes crazy.

    --
    Engineering is the art of compromise.
    1. Re:640k dimesions are enough! by innerweb · · Score: 1

      Jeez, I always thought there were Gigs and Gigs (billions and billions)....

      -InnerWeb
      --
      Freud might say that Intelligent Design is religion's ID.
    2. Re:640k dimesions are enough! by Walt+Dismal · · Score: 4, Funny

      By god, when I were a lad we only had three dimensions, and we LIKED it! You modern kids with yer artsy fartsy ponsy 6 dimensions! All we need was three, and we managed to build steam locomotives and conquer the West! You ain't never satisfied, is you? And strings -- my great-aunt's ass. If particles were good enough for Einstein, they should be good enough fer the likes of you! Hey now, Columbus sailed the ocean blue, and all he had were wormy biscuits. Bah. Ya poofters.

    3. Re:640k dimesions are enough! by Nyago · · Score: 2, Funny

      mod parent +1 Sagan Reference

      --
      Reality is fluffy!
    4. Re:640k dimesions are enough! by Walt+Dismal · · Score: 1

      Oooops. DragonHawk was there first, and better. Sorry...

    5. Re:640k dimesions are enough! by mysticgoat · · Score: 2, Funny

      Heinlein has already demonstrated that the ancients had established the upper limit. It is approximately 1.0314E+28 dimensions. This is
      (6 raised to the 6th power) raised to the 6th power
      which can be expressed as 6**6**6 or 6^6^6.

      Note that the ancient symbol denoting exponentiation was more similar to today's typographer's "enspace" than any other symbol in current usage. This has led to the unfortunate confusion of the large number 6^6^6 with the much smaller quantity 666. All this is thoroughly explained to any careful reader of Heinlein's great work, The Number Of The Beast. Although Heinlein had to couch his findings in an extended allegory to get them published in the less enlightened times of 40 odd years ago, the discerning reader will be able to easily follow his logic. His reconciliation of sentient flying cars with biblical prophesy is masterful; the elegance with which he demonstrates the core relationship between Dorothy's Land of Oz and higher level topology is superb.

      Note that in Qwerty Fortran and its derivatives, 6^6^6 is a singlekey bounced notation, which is easily demonstrated on most keyboards. This is a possibly significant clue to a secondary method of proving the ancient theorem.

      Anyway, we know that 640k of anything is never enough. Not where there is profit to be made.

    6. Re:640k dimesions are enough! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're either very funny or very naive.

      As I don't know you I'll go with funny.

  9. Einstein was a fraud by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    Einstein was a fraud in every sense of the word, and his supposed theory of general relativity (which he stole) has been proven wrong, time and time again. The question everyone should be asking themselves is: why is general relativity still being taught if it's 100% false? The answer is simple: the powers that be do NOT want the masses to understand the true nature of the universe because if we did understand it, limitation and impossibility wouldn't exist. It's funny how the Theory of General Relativity came out at the same time as Nikola Tesla's Dynamic Theory of Gravity - Tesla was, and is, the only true genius that ever walked the face of this earth, and it's such a shame that history has totally forgotten the man who could have saved us all.

    1. Re:Einstein was a fraud by Random+Destruction · · Score: 2, Funny
      In related news,
      Timecube.com wrote:

      Educators are lying bastards. -1 x -1= +1 is WRONG, it is academic stupidity and is evil.

      --
      :x
    2. Re:Einstein was a fraud by Goaway · · Score: 5, Funny

      Actually Tesla created the equivalent of a waterwheel that tapped the energy of Earth's motion through the coelestial aether. However, the resulting drag force was larger than he'd predicted, and after his experiments introduced a full extra day in 1892 (February 31, 1892 - google it), he was forced to stop his experiments. The original wheel is still on display in his home town of Smiljan. On special occasions, it is started up and let spin freely, without an load attached.

      Also, Tesla had to use the energy he'd stored up from the wheel (in a huge bank of capacitors - creating this was such a feat that the unit for capacitance is now named in his honour) to actually drive the wheel and restore the Earth's proper rotational period. Of course, the transfer wasn't without loss, which is why years divisible by 100 do not have leap days any longer.

    3. Re:Einstein was a fraud by m50d · · Score: 1
      Also, Tesla had to use the energy he'd stored up from the wheel (in a huge bank of capacitors - creating this was such a feat that the unit for capacitance is now named in his honour) to actually drive the wheel and restore the Earth's proper rotational period. Of course, the transfer wasn't without loss, which is why years divisible by 100 do not have leap days any longer.

      Nah, he used it to destroy all Einstein's prism tanks.

      --
      I am trolling
    4. Re:Einstein was a fraud by coolGuyZak · · Score: 1

      There are two slight errors in your post. Teslas are units of Magnetic Flux Density, not capacitance. In addition, Tesla didn't tap energy from the "Earth's motion through the coelestial aether", but Earth's motion through the chronoselestial aether--through the very dimensions of time discussed in TFA. Of course, science shuns the use of the term aether, due to its connexion with Tesla's experiments, so they now discuss the aether as a myriad of "dimensions" (also: mathematical manifolds and/or various branes from string theory).

      It's a common mistake to think that Tesla used a great bank of capacitors to store the energy from the "Time Still" experiment you describe. This misinterpretation stems from his use of a Magnetic Flux Capacitor (not a regular capacitor) to store the energy captured during the experiments [1]. Furthermore, Tesla had invented a design that accounted for the loss, but the materials of 1892 couldn't handle the stress of feeding the full 1.21 jigawatts back into the Time Still. The magnetic flux density generated by the alternating current would have ripped Tesla's Flux Capacitor apart, stopping time completely. However, he did manage to feed 1.200925 jigawatts back to the Still, so we only lost 3 days from every 400 years. (The remaining .009075 jigawatts being lost to aetherous drag, as you mentioned).

      Whew. The post wasn't supposed to be this long, but, the history and science buff I am, I couldn't help myself. I hope that I've managed to shed some additional light on the potential for Tesla's experiments. :)

      [1] As an aside, the Magnetic Flux Capacitor is actually a precursor to the one featured in this documentary. Tesla's was much bulkier and only capable of storing energy from the chronoselestial aether (rather than manipulating it, as in the documentary).

    5. Re:Einstein was a fraud by Coppit · · Score: 1

      However, the resulting drag force was larger than he'd predicted, and after his experiments introduced a full extra day in 1892 (February 31, 1892 - google it), he was forced to stop his experiments.
      Sorry, I did google it and can't find any reference to this experiment. Would you mind helping me out?
    6. Re:Einstein was a fraud by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      score -1: *whoosh*

    7. Re:Einstein was a fraud by babasyzygy · · Score: 1

      Yeah.

      Tesla could kick Chuck Norris' ass.

    8. Re:Einstein was a fraud by Bootard · · Score: 1

      +1: Eager gullibility. :-)

      --
      exceptio probat regulam in casibus non exceptis
    9. Re:Einstein was a fraud by Coppit · · Score: 1

      Sigh... After I showed the Z-machine to my wife, she started worrying that some day scientists would create a black hole that would destroy the earth. I was hoping for an "oh yeah, wait till you hear about Tesla" discussion...

      BTW, physicists were worried at one point that the first atomic explosion would burn up all the oxygen in the earth's atmosphere... ;)

  10. Mods on crack again by Harmonious+Botch · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Parent was modded 'flambait'?

    1. Re:Mods on crack again by innerweb · · Score: 1

      Maybe not flambait (sic), but definately on some acid trip. Reminds me of some of the stuff written in the sixties (like Pink Floyd's early stuff) ;-)

      InnerWeb
      --
      Freud might say that Intelligent Design is religion's ID.
    2. Re:Mods on crack again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Funny

      Maybe not flambait (sic), but definately on some acid trip. Reminds me of some of the stuff written in the sixties (like Pink Floyd's early stuff) ;-)
      You are definately (sic) an idiot.
  11. Whew! by RyanFenton · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I'm glad they're time-like dimentions! I'd hate to find out they're orthogonal directions, and suddenly have to worry about all my organs spilling out into the v and w dimensions. Or start filling a glass with water, only to discover I have to keep pouring until I had 1/8pi*r^4*height units of water. It'd just be inconvenient!

    Speaking of which, anyone interested in some rather funny dimensional hijinks, you might want to check out Flatland the classic book, or one of the movies being made about the story.

    Ryan Fenton

    1. Re:Whew! by The_Wilschon · · Score: 1

      Also, check out The Boy Who Reversed Himself by William Sleator. Really aimed at a slightly younger (junior high) audience, but still an interesting and entertaining read.

      --
      SIGSEGV caught, terminating

      wait... not that kind of sig.
    2. Re:Whew! by jd · · Score: 1

      IIRC, string theory has twelve dimensions, with the extra ones being space-like - just very very knotted up.

      --
      It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
    3. Re:Whew! by stevedcc · · Score: 1

      I'm glad they're time-like dimentions! I'd hate to find out they're orthogonal directions, and suddenly have to worry about all my organs spilling out into the v and w dimensions.

      You may not have to worry about peculiar spatial distortions from these extra dimensions, but what about strange temporal distortions?

      Perhaps now you can find a way to go back in time, kill your father before your mum got pregnant, then father yourself, before going on to attend your own funeral. Find a few more impossible things to do, then you can have breakfast at the restaurant at end of the universe!

      --
      todo - The developer's equivalent of confession: "Forgive me Father, for I have sinned..."
    4. Re:Whew! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      Or perhaps people would like a nicer scanned version of Flatland: A Romance of Many Dimensions . It's fantastic, everybody should read it.

    5. Re:Whew! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The number of dimensions used by string theory this year is exactly equal to the number of workarounds they had to do in the model in order to make sure it still didn't get disproven, and it still couldn't get proven.

      String theorists generally want to become string theorists. After the years of training and math, string theorists logically realize they have nothing. They, however, don't want their years to go to waste, so they don't tell anyone.

    6. Re:Whew! by Hal_Porter · · Score: 1

      I'm glad they're time-like dimentions! I'd hate to find out they're orthogonal directions, and suddenly have to worry about all my organs spilling out into the v and w dimensions. Or start filling a glass with water, only to discover I have to keep pouring until I had 1/8pi*r^4*height units of water. It'd just be inconvenient!

      I found some paper where someone worked out how to trap a creatures that can move in a fourth spatial dimension should they visit our universe.

      http://www.cs.unm.edu/~kwiley/mindWanderings.html# capture4thDimCreature

      Which you probably don't need to know, but if you skip this comment and are pestered fourth dimensional creatures, you will really kick yourself. Also, if you find flatland, don't stick your finger into it - you're not completely invulnerable.

      --
      echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
  12. Who cares. by Chouonsoku · · Score: 2, Funny

    I only read those dimension articles on Wikipedia because of the pretty animated gifs.

    1. Re:Who cares. by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Stay away from tasting those funny colored papers and the gifs ain't so pretty anymore.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  13. Number of the Beast by rossdee · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Hmm 6 dimensions, 3 of space and 3 of time...

    Definately sounds like Jacob Burrough's theory (from the book by R A Heinlein)

    1. Re:Number of the Beast by WarlockD · · Score: 1

      I was thinking the same thing, just wish there was some easier way to visualize it. I keep thinking of hooky sci-fi books.

    2. Re:Number of the Beast by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Heh, That's what I was going to say, but in case anyone doesn't know the book: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Number_of_the_Bea st_(novel)

    3. Re:Number of the Beast by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wha?! Numerology?! 6 is twice (2) as much as three (3) ...

      23!?!?!

    4. Re:Number of the Beast by NecroPuppy · · Score: 1

      Actually, later in the book it was discovered that each of the six dimensions was a space-time dimension, and that any three of the six could act as spacial dimensions and any one of the remaining three could act as a time dimension.

      Or depending on your method of selection, any one of the six acting as a time dimension, and any three of the remaining 5 acting as space dimensions.

      Order of selection, in this case, is not important.

      --
      I like you, Stuart. You're not like everyone else, here, at Slashdot.
    5. Re:Number of the Beast by Jugalator · · Score: 1

      ??

      The number of the beast is 666, not 6.

      --
      Beware: In C++, your friends can see your privates!
    6. Re:Number of the Beast by Jugalator · · Score: 1

      Ahh, I see the book link now and can't blame you anymore. :-)

      --
      Beware: In C++, your friends can see your privates!
    7. Re:Number of the Beast by Catbeller · · Score: 1

      Well, it wasn't so much a solid piece of science fiction as a love letter to SF literature, and the fans themselves. Hell, Poul Anderson showed up in full armor in an SCA tourney at the end, the biggest science fiction convention in the history of the Multiperson Pantheistic Solipsistic universe. "Dis Dane could be our arrow".

    8. Re:Number of the Beast by MichaelSmith · · Score: 1

      The number of the beast is 666, not 6.

      In the book it was interpreted at 6^6^6

    9. Re:Number of the Beast by MichaelSmith · · Score: 2, Funny

      Definately sounds like Jacob Burrough's theory

      And a universe for every slashdot meme.

    10. Re:Number of the Beast by MichaelSmith · · Score: 1

      This sounds amazingly like the premise of a Heinlein novel, The Number of the Beast, which supposes that there are three dimensions of time as well as three dimensions of space, and that travel is possible on the two axes we normally do not recognize. This allows visiting realities that can be subtly or vastly different from our own, weighted by probability.

      And all I need to do is attach actuators to a gyroscope and start pushing it around.

    11. Re:Number of the Beast by chill · · Score: 1

      In Greek, Delta Delta Delta. Since the Ancient Greeks knew of powers, 6^6^6 is also written as Delta Delta Delta.

      Many interpretations can be made when your language is the same as your numbering system, like Greek and Hebrew. (Alpha = A = 1, Beta = B = 2, etc.)

      And Heinlein's book is one of my all-time favorites.

        Charles

      --
      Learning HOW to think is more important than learning WHAT to think.
    12. Re:Number of the Beast by smallfries · · Score: 1

      Come on, you're not getting with the numerology vibe here. It's obvious:

      The prime factors of 6 are 2 and 3.
      2/3 = 0.666666666
      If we start at digit 2 and take 3 digits then we get 666.

      Carol Vorderman eat your heart out.

      --
      Slashdot: where don knuth is an idiot because he cant grasp the awesome power of php
    13. Re:Number of the Beast by bobaferret · · Score: 1

      Time for a few excursions in Z I guess. Hmmmm, now where did that letter K go?

    14. Re:Number of the Beast by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      IIRC, its also the one he wrote with 1/2 of his brain starved for oxygen due to a phsyiological issue later corrected by surgery..... I like the post -666 books better in some ways ("Friday", for example, is just a romp).

    15. Re:Number of the Beast by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Posting Anon because I have mods . . . 666 is correctly interpreted as an atomic description, 6 protons, 6 neutrons, 6 electrons. I can't wait until the environmentalists get ahold of that. I'm surprised Al didn't break it down for everyone in his flick.

    16. Re:Number of the Beast by amper · · Score: 1

      Yeah, well, I'm still waiting for my very own Gay Deceiver...they keep promising us flying cars with real personalities...

    17. Re:Number of the Beast by Mal-2 · · Score: 1

      Are you sure? You might end up with KITT, and no way to strangle the damn thing when it annoys you! Or you could end up with Marvin and his "Genuine People Personality" repeatedly driving you into ditches. I'll settle for a car that's smart enough to get me where I'm going without too much intervention on my part, and maybe capable of placing phone calls or changing the radio station by voice command. Since the last part is already possible, I see no reason to rip it out.

      If we could build electronic brains that are as smart as the average horse, or possibly even the average rat, that would be plenty. It doesn't take human-level intellect to navigate and avoid danger. For a flying car we might want to emulate a flying animal. It'd be a hoot and a holler if our fabulous flying car is run by something as smart as your average pigeon -- and it works anyhow. It just has to be trained not to take a crap every time it passes over another car.

      Mal-2

      --
      How is the Riemann zeta function like Trump rallies? Both have an endless number of trivial zeros.
    18. Re:Number of the Beast by Darby · · Score: 1

      Definately sounds like Jacob Burrough's theory

      And a universe for every slashdot meme.


      If your middle name starts with "V", I don't think you have much place to talk Mr. Smith ;-)

    19. Re:Number of the Beast by gdrumm0356 · · Score: 1

      As long as it's not Windows for Warships for the OS!

      --
      Former geek, now I can rest...
    20. Re:Number of the Beast by MichaelSmith · · Score: 1

      If your middle name starts with "V", I don't think you have much place to talk Mr. Smith ;-)

      Actually I am Michael Rohan Smith, but the man from mars was (IIRC) Valentine Michael Smith.

      I was once a member of the Michael Smith web ring, believe it or not.

    21. Re:Number of the Beast by msheekhah · · Score: 1

      I'm glad someone caught that. How appropriate that in this modern era, it was deployed in "The Gay Deceiver".

      Any by Gay, I do not mean anything derogative. Gay is not only a description of a god-created way of life through genetic mismatch of mental and physical gender, it is also a description of the very unique and colorful, if flamboyant way of life that such a mismatch creates. In NLP, it is called an alternate descriptor.

      Of course, in NLP, alternate descriptors are not expected to conform to reality. They merely require that the descriptor work.

      --
      Mark Anthony Collins
    22. Re:Number of the Beast by msheekhah · · Score: 1

      // Of course, in NLP, alternate descriptors are not expected to conform to reality. They merely require that the descriptor work. That comment was supposed to point to the original theory, not a crack against unique, colorful, or flamboyant lifestyles. One's mind has a tendancy to create language based on the context of their thoughts, but then when the context of the thoughts is not conveyed in the language, misunderstanding is created. People should have figured that out by now. There'd be a lot less problems if they did.

      --
      Mark Anthony Collins
    23. Re:Number of the Beast by Darby · · Score: 1

      Actually I am Michael Rohan Smith

      Well, if it's not from Sci-Fi it's from fantasy ;-)

      but the man from mars was (IIRC) Valentine Michael Smith.

      Doh! Right you are.

      I was once a member of the Michael Smith web ring, believe it or not.

      I believe it... you have no reason to lie about that ;-)
      Pretty funny though. How many members were there?

    24. Re:Number of the Beast by MichaelSmith · · Score: 1

      Pretty funny though. How many members were there?

      About 50

  14. Well, that's just fantastic by Manchot · · Score: 5, Funny

    Great, not only do we have to figure out how to travel through time, but now we also have to figure out how to travel through uime and vime!

    1. Re:Well, that's just fantastic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Argh, read it how to travel through uim with vim!

    2. Re:Well, that's just fantastic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      vime? h,j,k,l.

      Though I have to admit, it takes quite a lot of initial energy.

    3. Re:Well, that's just fantastic by witte · · Score: 1

      We'll need new words for directions then. Left, right, up, down, forward, back... 'sooner' and 'later' just ain't gonna cut it for the missus giving directions from the backseat when driving through time in our funky timeshifting go-karts.

    4. Re:Well, that's just fantastic by Muad'Dave · · Score: 1

      ...or maybe 'timex' (that's taken), 'timey' (just sounds silly), and 'timez' (makes me think of warez).

      I like your suggestion better, pronounced 'time', 'wime', and vime', I take it?

      --
      Tiller's Rule: Never use a word in written form that you've only heard and never read. You will end up looking foolish.
  15. Consequences of three dimensional time? by SlowMovingTarget · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I read the article, but I really don't understand the consequences of the theory. What would it mean for there to be more than one time dimension?

    I'll have to settle for completely off-the-cuff, wild speculation: Could that help explain human temporal perception (you can "feel" time slow down or time flies by when having fun)? Can our consciousness span more or less of these other dimensions of time at need? Would this help explain the apparent causality problem of neuromuscular control (humans seem able to send the neural command to catch the ball before our senses could have delivered the signal that it should be caught)?

    Could the existence of extra time dimensions have implications regarding the existence of free will?

    How does this relate to the "one-graviton level" for quantum collapse / observation (if at all)?

    As you can see, I'm just an amateur toying with the Duplo blocks of popularized physics, but I still find the notion fascinating.

    1. Re:Consequences of three dimensional time? by Coryoth · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I read the article, but I really don't understand the consequences of the theory. What would it mean for there to be more than one time dimension? That's really not at all clear. They aren't so much extra "time" dimensions as in extra directions of time, as extra time-like dimensions which has a specific meaning that refers to how they behave in calculating space-time distances. Ultimately they are the product of a purely mathematical model and, unless the author has something more in mind than is presented in the paper, exactly what sort of physical interpretation they might have is utterly unclear.

      Of course mathematical models sometimes help us frame ideas about physical reality that we have trouble otherwise perceiving. Lorentz and Poincare developed much of the mathematics of special relativity as a mathematical model of electrodynamics using an "apparent time" that they viewed as an artificial mathematical construct necessary to make the model work. Einstein provided the insight that this "artificial" time was actually a real effect by making a conceptual shift about what simultaneity means, and special relativity was born.

      For now the extra time-like dimensions are simply artificial creations of a mathematical model, we still await an insight to explain how they fit in with our own pereceptions of the universe.
    2. Re:Consequences of three dimensional time? by KDR_11k · · Score: 2, Interesting

      What this means for free will depends on how things exist within the time dimension, I'd think. Either things move through time like they move through space (i.e. when they move somewhere they're no longer at their old position which would require some kind of metatime and of course make time travel impossible since you'd land somewhere with nothing in it) or they exist at each point in time at the same "time" which would preclude free will since the whole universe is mapped out from creation to destruction (apparently called Eternalism). Having things leave "trails" through time would violate the conservation of mass I'd assume and obviously introduce metatime again.

      So, um, I guess if you somehow projected an object's 6 dimensions into something we could see the question would be if we'd see a point or what appears to be a function plot. I really don't know how scientists expect time to function within these theories.

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    3. Re:Consequences of three dimensional time? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You can always fit an > n dimensional polynomial through n points. The more dimensions you add, the easier it is to make it fit observations, occams razor notwithstanding. String theory, IMHO is similar.. cant fit points to the model, lets model them as strings, then membranes.
      Dammit Jim, I'm a pragmatist, not a physicist.

      Anonymous pragmatist...

    4. Re:Consequences of three dimensional time? by John+Newman · · Score: 2, Informative

      Would this help explain the apparent causality problem of neuromuscular control (humans seem able to send the neural command to catch the ball before our senses could have delivered the signal that it should be caught)?
      What "causality problem" are you alluding to? I don't think there's any suggestion of FTL nerve impulses in the neuroscience community. If you just mean the old saw about being able to catch a dollar bill that you drop between your fingers, remember that it doesn't work if someone else does the dropping. Your higher brain anticipates your own actions, allowing your "reflexes" to appear much faster than they actually are.
    5. Re:Consequences of three dimensional time? by Coryoth · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Either things move through time like they move through space (i.e. when they move somewhere they're no longer at their old position which would require some kind of metatime Things don't "move through space" in a space-time model, rather they trace out a curve through the comined 4-dimensional space-time (and by trace, I mean "exist as", there is no progression here). In the 6-dimensional version presumably it would simply be a curve in this 6-space. There is no need to invoke a "meta-time". Indeed, despite our natural intuition that time is some absolute thing that is somehow "outside the universe" marking of its progression, special (and then general) relativity was about folding time in and realising that it time itself is relative. It is tricky to think about easily as it goes against native intuition, but with a little practice you can get the hang of it.
    6. Re:Consequences of three dimensional time? by The_Wilschon · · Score: 4, Interesting

      They aren't so much extra "time" dimensions as in extra directions of time, as extra time-like dimensions which has a specific meaning that refers to how they behave in calculating space-time distances.
      Yes. Also, IIRC, theories with multiple timelike dimensions tend to be unstable, leading to the collapse of all but one timelike dimension, so that the total length of space in the extra timelike directions is very small. This would tend to lead to a physical interpretation in which the extra timelike dimensions matter very very little, especially on macroscopic scales.

      Of course, I'm an experimentalist, not a theorist, so I'm really just talking out of my elbow here.
      --
      SIGSEGV caught, terminating

      wait... not that kind of sig.
    7. Re:Consequences of three dimensional time? by king-manic · · Score: 1

      Would this help explain the apparent causality problem of neuromuscular control (humans seem able to send the neural command to catch the ball before our senses could have delivered the signal that it should be caught)?

      What? I have never heard of any causality problems related to human reflexes. There is a measurable delay and no contradiction of fundemental physics in biology like this. I think you might have read one too many flakey new age texts.

      --
      "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
    8. Re:Consequences of three dimensional time? by TapeCutter · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I agree, the brain is constantly predicting the muscle movements that will be required ~0.25 seconds into the "future". The communication lag between hand and eye becomes aparent when you see your keys in the boot as you are closing the lid. Even though you brain screams stop your hand keeps pushing for that split second too long, the prediction was wrong and the brain had no way to cancel the "close the lid" command. The "illusion" of time can also be demonstrated when you are in fear of your life such as during a car accident the driver will often expeience a slow motion effect as their brain goes into hyperdrive looking for a way out.

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    9. Re:Consequences of three dimensional time? by thefirelane · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Hi, I'm not a physicist, and I didn't read the article, but I think I can help you out

      Could that help explain human temporal perception (you can "feel" time slow down or time flies by when having fun)?
      No

      Can our consciousness span more or less of these other dimensions of time at need?
      No

      Would this help explain the apparent causality problem of neuromuscular control (humans seem able to send the neural command to catch the ball before our senses could have delivered the signal that it should be caught)?
      No

      Could the existence of extra time dimensions have implications regarding the existence of free will?
      No

      You're welcome.

    10. Re:Consequences of three dimensional time? by Knuckles · · Score: 1

      (humans seem able to send the neural command to catch the ball before our senses could have delivered the signal that it should be caught)

      If you are interested in stuff like this, you will like Zen and the Brain and Zen-Brain Reflections by James H. Austin

      --
      "When I first heard Daydream Nation it quite frankly scared the living shit out of me." -- Matthew Stearns
    11. Re:Consequences of three dimensional time? by x2A · · Score: 1

      "which would preclude free will since the whole universe is mapped out from creation to destruction"

      No it wouldn't, as "you" exist within the system, and so all decisions that you make are still "yours". For example, if I take a 'normal' human being, put them at the edge of a cliff, and ask them to jump, I can predict that they will decide against jumping, before I've even asked them to. So does that mean that they didn't decide to jump just because I already knew they wouldn't? Of cause not, it was still their decision. Just as a computer does run a computer program, even though the computer program can be pre-determined, a human can still make decisions even though those decisions can be pre-determinted.

      --
      The revolution will not be televised... but it will have a page on Wikipedia
    12. Re:Consequences of three dimensional time? by maxwell+demon · · Score: 1

      In the 6-dimensional version presumably it would simply be a curve in this 6-space.

      I'm not sure about this: Conventional movement means that you have a mapping from one-dimensional time to 3-dimensional space, which means that in 4-dimensional spacetime you get a one-dimensional manifold (i.e. a curve). The obvious generalization to three time dimensions would be that you have a mapping from three-dimensional time to three-dimensional space, which in six-dimensional spacetime would result in a three-dimensional manifold.

      OTOH this is generalized directly from the classical description. Probably the right thing to do would be to formulate a quantum field theory in (3,3)-spacetime, and then take the classical limit.
      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
    13. Re:Consequences of three dimensional time? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's so not where experimentalists talk out of...

    14. Re:Consequences of three dimensional time? by Jesus_666 · · Score: 1

      Hmm, might be related to that phenomenon where you notice a glaring error in your post before clicking Submit, but too late to keep from clicking.

      --
      USE HOT GRITS WITH STATUE OF NATALIE PORTMAN (NAKED AND PETRIFIED)
    15. Re:Consequences of three dimensional time? by Dunbal · · Score: 2, Funny

      What would it mean for there to be more than one time dimension?

            It would certainly mean lots of extra funding for scientists who are pushing that hypothesis.

      --
      Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
    16. Re:Consequences of three dimensional time? by Dunbal · · Score: 1

      What? I have never heard of any causality problems related to human reflexes. There is a measurable delay and no contradiction of fundemental physics in biology like this.

            Perhaps they refer to the amazing ability of the human mind to solve differential equations in a matter of milliseconds to put the hand at the right place to intercept a flying ball. Fortunately for us, the brain just skips the math part and intuitively comes up with the right answer most of the time.

            This is hard-wiring, memory and conditioning, however. Your body knows exactly where your hand is in space due to proprioception - pressure receptors in muscles and tendons are constantly giving info relating to body position in space and relative to itself. The trajectory of any object becomes predictable after a while, since gravity is constant. If you can estimate speed and distance, you can pretty much guess that what went up will come down at pretty much the same rate. Then it's a matter of placing the hand approximately in an intercept position, and correcting its position as the object nears. And it's not error-free. Sometimes you will drop or miss the ball - especially if unusual things happen - spin on the ball, gusts of wind, etc. There's no need to think about magical extra dimensions for that.

      --
      Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
    17. Re:Consequences of three dimensional time? by hey! · · Score: 1

      It doesn't make sense for something to "move through time", since movement is a change in position in time.

      Instead, objects occupy time, the way they occupy space.

      I've often wondered whether our perception of time isn't really just a manifestation of entropy. "Forward" in time is simply the direction in which entropy (information) increases. You can't know the future with certainty because the information isn't present at the particular slice of time we call the present.

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    18. Re:Consequences of three dimensional time? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not at all. The "brain", or the subconscious part, prepares many actions in advance based on experience, genetics and training.
      What happens at the "last moment" is called the "veto command", which shuts down all the prepared actions not required. The car boot key scenario isn't the same, because (unless you've done it many times before), the brain has no way to prepare the action to prevent your shutting the boot in error.

    19. Re:Consequences of three dimensional time? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That totally doesn't happen to me.

      I think your brain might be wired wrong.

    20. Re:Consequences of three dimensional time? by TapeCutter · · Score: 1

      I'm talking about the lag between the "stop pushing" command being issued and the muscles responding (reflex time). It's the same as another post pointed out, you can catch a bit of paper between your thumb and finger if you control the drop but not if someone else does.

      There is no way to overcome the ~0.25 sec time lag between the brain's "command" and the muscles movement it's simply a limitation imposed by the speed of a signals propogation down a nerve, sure there is plenty of anaylisis going on that is subject to a "veto command" but once an action is chosen it becomes a "command" that the muscles will execute in ~0.25 sec from the time it was "decided" (ie: in the future). Once the "command" has been issued it cannot be "revoked" by a veto command, any new information (OMG keys) will not result in any variation to muscle movements for ~0.25 seconds (normal reflexes).

      Watching your hand close the boot lid as you see the keys is like watching a golf ball sail toward the lake, you can see what's about to happen but there is no way to stop it. Similarly you can't stop your hand pushing down for another 0.25sec, unfortunately this is usually enough time to complete the action. When you are in a life threatening situation the planning stage goes into overdrive and everything appears to be in slow motion as you brain frantically trys to take it all in, but no matter how fast it works it still takes 0.25sec for the average driver to react because of the signal propogation thing.

      When we are born (maybe even before) we must learn from experience to predict what will happen 0.25sec into the future, and that's just to walk and chew gum. Humans are slow at learning how to control body movements when compared to other mammals but I think that's because we are busy learning other things such as language and how our hands work (watch any baby, they are fascinated with their own hands).

      When you watch your own fingers touch the sensation seems to happen at the same instant you see them touch, there is no apparent lag. Yet the information from the different senses does not reach the brain at the same time, the visual information has had ample time to have been processed while the touch information is still working it's way through the nervous system, synconizing the two senses into one "simultaneous reality" is a trully remarkble trick of the mind IMHO.

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    21. Re:Consequences of three dimensional time? by Control+Group · · Score: 1

      Free will is an entirely moot point: the case where free will exists is indistinguishable from the case where it does not. For free will to mean anything, it requires that a person be capable of choosing any of the available courses of action in response to a given set of stimuli. That is, if a person decides to eat an orange, it must be the case that the person could have decided to not eat the orange (if free will holds true).

      The problem is that, unless we gain the ability to move freely through time, this can't be demonstrated one way or another. Each event is fundamentally non-repeatable, since the state of the brain is non-reversible. So you can never know whether a given person would ever not eat the orange in a given situation; you only have a single trial for every event.

      All we're left with, then, is the belief that we can decide our courses of action. This turns out to be practically effective, and a generally good approach to living and interacting with the universe.

      --

      Reality has a conservative bias: it conserves mass, energy, momentum...
    22. Re:Consequences of three dimensional time? by Catbeller · · Score: 1

      A major consequence would be a deeper understanding of the nature of reality, and ultimately would lead to the scenario I evilly smile at every time I hear about the plumbing of reality being plungered...

      "Dr. Bob! I know I'm just a lowly Master's candidate, but in between grading all the papers of your physics classes and cleaning your faculty lounge, I was reading the latest followup to the 3D3T papers and realized that if I rotated this sphere at this obvious speed and brought the temperature down to 0 Kelvin minus a whisker, and then rotated this plane of cesium ions so that the spin ran through 450 degrees, the normal charges of the constituent particles of the sphere reverse through two time dimensions! It becomes antimatter. I think that this may explain the missing AM in the universe. Now, if you let me demonstrate this test rig with the ten kilo sphere right now - let me throw this switch -

      BOOM

    23. Re:Consequences of three dimensional time? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That shouldn't be surprising. As the scale gets longer, the other time dimensions become less relevant because you're reducing the number of alternatives... Perhaps that explains why our perception of time is so flexible, depending on the scale we're dealing with (eg, getting older = time flies, but short-term panic situation = time is slow) the number of dimensions we have available varies.

    24. Re:Consequences of three dimensional time? by radtea · · Score: 1

      What would it mean for there to be more than one time dimension?

      The answer to all your specific questions is "No"--consciousness is almost certainly an emergent classical phenomenon of the brain, and certainly has nothing to do with quantum mechanical effects of the kind Penrose is concerned with in his crazy book on the subject.

      The meaning of extra dimensions is tricky. The physics we experience is clearly 3+1D: three spacial dimensions and one of time. No one knows what makes time different, no one knows why we have three independent space dimensions, and no one knows what it would mean in any larger sense for there to be extra space or time dimensions.

      Every extra-dimensional model predicts different concrete consequences for our 3+1D experience, mostly in terms of either exotic particles near the weak scale or odd gravitational effects. Because we are for some completely unknown reason constrained to a 3+1D universe, we are like flatlanders trying to infer 3D physics from the oddities of our 2D domain that we can't otherwise make sense of, and our experiences don't necessarily provide very good constraints on viable higher-dimensional models.

      In our case, the major oddity we are trying to explain is why gravity is so weak compared to the other forces of nature, or conversely, why the Planck mass is so large compared to the masses of the particles we find ourselves made out of. There is a sixteen order-of-magnitude gap between the weak interaction scale (~1000 GeV) and the Planck scale (10^19 GeV). We have no clue as to why this might be, but it is really hard to make a low-particle-mass universe out of such a high-particle-mass fundamental scale. It is as if we were living in a building constructed ONLY of blocks that are 10^13 miles long, but the corridors and rooms are ten feet wide. You'd have to think there was something tricky going on to make that happen.

      It turns out that adding extra dimensions to the mathematical description of our universe makes it relatively easy to create models where this huge gap in scales (called the "hierarchy problem") goes away. Of necessity, these extra dimensions are must somehow be made invisible to us, either by rolling them up in a process called compactification, or through quasi-dynamical means like brane-confinement in string theory (a "brane" is a lower-dimensional structure that can have special dynamics in string theory, allowing particles to be confined to it, and if the particles we are made out of are all confined to a 3+1D brane, then so are we.)

      Again, the thing we can be absolutely sure of: any effects these extra dimensions have will appear only in high-energy physics experiments in the form of new particles, or in very subtle effects on the force of gravity. We will never be able to observe them directly, travel in them, or experience them. Of course, I could just be talking moonshine...

      --
      Blasphemy is a human right. Blasphemophobia kills.
    25. Re:Consequences of three dimensional time? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You haven't noticed it happening, you mean.

    26. Re:Consequences of three dimensional time? by Remus+Shepherd · · Score: 1

      There is one possible consequence that should be examined. There is another ultra-hyperbolic 6-dimensional spacetime theory -- Heim theory. But Heim theory predicts that there is a gravitational force for each time-like dimension, and in the right circumstances these forces can be repulsive. In other words, Sparling's work could be another step towards a theory of anti-gravitational forces.

      It's a longshot, but it's a possibility, and a surer bet than any useful impacts on our understanding of human consciousness.

      --
      Genocide Man -- Life is funny. Death is funnier. Mass murder can be hilarious.
    27. Re:Consequences of three dimensional time? by Alistar · · Score: 1

      Thats not a valid defense for free will.

      Not that I necessarily with the GP, but if everything is mapped out, the fact that you put a person at that cliff and whether or not he jumps is also pre-determined.

      Your little experiment proves nothing, as you assume that either you or the jumpee is outside the pre-determination in your scenario.

      He didn't jump because it was pre-determined, and you knew you he wouldn't because it was pre-determined that you would think that. It was also pre-determined that you would put that person in that situation.

      Oddly enough, if everything is pre-determined and you can somehow prove that, and see the pre-determination, it should logically follow that that itself was pre-determined. That gets into the whole "time travel" (again hypothetically if you could) thing, that if you know the future, can you change it, or does the future you see exist as the future cause of the pre-determined state you would see it as.

    28. Re:Consequences of three dimensional time? by MadMagician · · Score: 1

      "I read the article, but I really don't understand the consequences of the theory. What would it mean for there to be more than one time dimension?"

      It would be exactly like this.

    29. Re:Consequences of three dimensional time? by Jasper__unique_dammi · · Score: 1

      Scientist have also wondered about the "arrow of time" (can google for more) being determined by wether entropy naturally increases or decreases. This is because it is paradoxial that the evolution of many systems can also be time-reversed, while still, apparently entropy always increases. Entropy is a bit overrated, i believe it is defined as the number of possibilities, while only one possibility is actually reality. (which needend be the likely entropy-decreasing one) Also, the theory around it is based on equilibria,(or local equilibria) and should not be applied to things that are not. (like the universe)

    30. Re:Consequences of three dimensional time? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Of course, I'm an experimentalist, not a theorist, so I'm really just talking out of my elbow here.
      Um, no, that's a "ventriloquist."
    31. Re:Consequences of three dimensional time? by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      Free will is the idea that the will of a person is not solely a result of past and present stimuli, it is the belief that given the exact same physical state a human's decision is not always the same. Thus free will, it's not tied to determinism. Reeks of religious self-importance to me (some claim that humans are better than inanimate matter or perhaps even animals) but whatever people see as necessary to make their life bearable...

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    32. Re:Consequences of three dimensional time? by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      If the brain was reverse engineered enough it could be determined whether free will exists.

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    33. Re:Consequences of three dimensional time? by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      So in effect block time is what we have, right?

      However, if we just assume that it's fully mapped out, how can we make any claims about it? For obvious reasons we cannot say if any "slice" (i.e. point in time) out of that spacetime has any relation to any other slice as we can only see what is within the slice and within the slice is all the information we use to make claims about other slices. Thus if there was no logical connection between the slices we would never know.

      Granted, that's probably deep into "we don't care" territory for science and only interesting to philosophers.

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    34. Re:Consequences of three dimensional time? by SlowMovingTarget · · Score: 1

      You could be talking moonshine, but your negative answer to my question at least carried on the conversation. That was really the original reason for my post: to trigger speculation, and perhaps, analysis.

      I already knew that the proposed theory left out any implications (the word I ought to have used in my subject line). But I would like to develop some intuitive grasp of extra "time-like" dimensions. I know in string theory, one of the functions of additional compactified space-like dimensions is to "bleed off" the power of gravity to make it resemble (geometrically) what we observe, as you mention. This is comparatively easy to intuit from lower-dimensional visualization.

      The closest we seem to have come to intuitively grasping the nature of time, however, is as a progressive universal state machine. The smallest quantum of time is the smallest possible state-change. But even this sense of state change is bound geometrically to distances in spacial dimensions (the speed of light).

      If I understand the replies I've gotten, this theory says that somehow, the intuitive notion of time as information transfer about state change in geometrical space happens somehow differently than we traditionally imagine. Is that a fair characterization?


      Regards,

      SlowMovingTarget

    35. Re:Consequences of three dimensional time? by shotgunefx · · Score: 1

      My own two cents on time perception...

      I think it's just your brain pushing the turbo button. Your brain starts processing faster so you have more samples relative to normal so it seems "longer".

      For instance, when I was a teen, I was in a pretty bad car wreck (passenger), the idiot driver was doing ~ 60mph in the city, fishtailed out of control and spun into a parked van. It was only a matter of seconds, but I had time to brace myself, close my eyes, imagine the crash in my head and me and all my friends in a gory pile in the aftermath, open my eyes and see that we hadn't hit yet. Luckily we all got away uninjured, though the car and van were like conjoined twins.

      --

      -William Shatner can be neither created nor destroyed.
    36. Re:Consequences of three dimensional time? by radtea · · Score: 1


      I'm sceptical of the utility of such intuitive pictures of the mathematical abstractions we use to describe the universe. I've seen too many good physicists mislead by forcing their understanding into an intuitive box, and have also seen that we have the ability to make absolutely anything seem intuitively correct after enough twisting our brains around.

      That said, the state-machine model of time progression is one that is relatively rare in physics. There is theory called "finite nature" that explicitly treats time this way (one of the axioms is "the universe is computing the future as fast as it can.") But in mainstream physics time is treated more like a parameter than a dynamical quantity, and we simply take for granted that the equations are motion are expressed relative to it.

      Higher spacial dimensions don't look too bad because we can easily think of a 2D universe and imagine what a 3D universe would look like from that perspective. But with time, we don't really understand the one time dimension we have, and can't imagine what the universe would look like to creatures in a world without time, and so any intuitive picture of extra time dimensions is challenging.

      For example, we can imagine a 3D object moving along a different space dimension and having its 3D projection appear and disappear in our world in a blink, assuming our world has small but finite extension in the extra spacial dimension. But for an object to change along another time dimension would imply that while its own time co-ordinate in our world was fixed, it could undergo alteration (because it would move along one of the other time dimensions.) This would imply that there was an instant in which one thing was many things, which we are not equipped to deal with.

      For example, suppose that an atom decayed from an excited state into its ground state along a different time dimension (that is, during the decay process the world-line of the atom is extended along an alternative time dimension while having a zero-length projection onto our own). That would mean from our perspective it would at one time both have and have not emitted a photon in the same respect and at the same time...which kinda sounds like quantum mechanics, now that I think of it...

      Ok, now I have to go away and ponder some more.

      --
      Blasphemy is a human right. Blasphemophobia kills.
    37. Re:Consequences of three dimensional time? by SlowMovingTarget · · Score: 1

      Forgive me for being ironic, but, "exactly!" That's why I asked the one-graviton-level question.

      Thanks again for the conversation.

  16. Interesting claim by Coryoth · · Score: 5, Interesting

    An interesting claim made in the paper, but not mentioned in the PhysOrg writeup, is that this theory provides a co-ordinate free definition of chaos in spacetime. That is, for usual definitions of a dynamical system being chaotic, there is a preferred time co-ordinate describing the evolution of the system. General relativity, on the other hand, is remarkable because there is no single preferred co-ordinate system; everything works independently of the particular choice of co-ordinates to work in. As far as I can glean from the paper (it is very very dense) they simply define a chaotic system with regard to properties of the Chi operator, and claim that this conforms to the more restricted usual definition. This is far from clear to me -- I'm struggling just to get my head around their definition of Chi, let alone any implications of it -- but it would certainly be very interesting if true.

    1. Re:Interesting claim by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm shooting in the dark here, but that sounds like a step towards rectifying the heisenburg uncertainty principle and quantum with relativity?

  17. peter James Carroll by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    it remember me of the chaos magician
    http://www.specularium.org/

  18. whoa dude by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "In physics, the idea of a spinor stems from the finding that spectral lines of atoms seem to behave as if the angular momentum of the particles radiating photons was in half-integral units of the quantized spin (whose size is determined by Planck's constant). This was fully explained by Dirac's famous theory of the electron, which led him to successfully predict the existence of the positron."

    Some spinorial particles include the electron, muon, tau, proton, neutron, quarks, neutrinos, and all their anti-particles, which are called fermions and have half-integer spins. There are also non-spinorial particles, called bosons, such as the photon, graviton, pion, mesons, the W and Z bosons, the Higgs, (if it exists) and so on, which have an integer spin, Sparling explains.

    "The key difference between spinors and non-spinors is their behavior under rotations: typically, non-spinorial (integer-spin) particles return to their initial value under a 360-degree (or 2-radian) rotation; however, the spinorial (half-integer-spin) fermions actually change sign under a 360-degree rotation, requiring a full 720-degree rotation to get back to their initial values. This is completely foreign to our naive idea of how rotations work, and yet it is a basic part of reality.


    I think I may have already realized this some time ago while on LSD
  19. Missing something. . . by Fantastic+Lad · · Score: 4, Funny
    I think this passage loses its full meaning when not presented in the original 48pt orange text on fluorescent green animated gif background.

    There's, "Controversial and Open to Alternative Explanations", and then there's, "Insanity".

    Spelling and language skills tend to decay the further toward the "Insanity" end of the spectrum one travels. Interestingly, I've read Right Wing screeds which don't fare much better in the language department. Learn to discern.


    -FL

    1. Re:Missing something. . . by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful
      Your post was quite funny till I got to the last bit.

      Spelling and language skills tend to decay the further toward the "Insanity" end of the spectrum one travels. Interestingly, I've read Right Wing screeds which don't fare much better in the language department. Learn to discern. And the same of course naturally applies to left wing "screed" as well. Your truism speaks highly to your objectivity!
    2. Re:Missing something. . . by Damek · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Stung a little too personally, huh, Anonymous Coward?

  20. I thought Gravity was the 4th dimension by Degrees · · Score: 4, Funny
    As the field expands, we interpret it as time - but the actual drag on the field is seen as gravity. This makes the four directions left-right, up-down, forward-backward, (and in a twisty spiral that looks like a logarithmic curve, but is really just yet-another-right-angle in the fourth dimension) inward-outward (collapsing-expanding).

    OK - I'm just messing with you. I have no idea - but I looked through a textbook at a UC Berkeley bookstore years ago with that title, with the picture of the logarithmic spiral, and liked the idea.

    ;-)

    --
    "The most sensible request of government we make is not, "Do something!" But "Quit it!"
    1. Re:I thought Gravity was the 4th dimension by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0244870/
      The right movie for you :)

  21. interesting by disturbedite · · Score: 1

    very interesting! i've always found the understanding of time and space (and in particular their relation to each other) interesting, being that i'm a trekkie and all...

    --
    http://www.ronpaul2008.com/ Ron Paul for President 2008 http://www.infowars.com/
  22. SIX dimensions?!? by DragonHawk · · Score: 4, Funny

    What's that?? *SIX* whole dimensions? Why, when I was starting out, we only had three dimensions, and we liked it that way. Length, width, and height were good enough for us, and they should be good enough for anyone. Why, we sometimes had to work in just *two* dimensions -- *and they were both length*! You didn't hear *us* complaining about relativity or quantum effects. If it can't be expressed in a Newtonian physics, it shouldn't be expressed at all, that's what we said. Pretty soon you'll be inventing time travel and creating causality paradoxes and tearing apart the entire space-time continuum, and *then* where will we be, I ask ya? You young scientists these days, why, you have no idea what proper respect is.

    And get off my lawn!

    --

    dragonhawk@iname.microsoft.com
    I do not like Microsoft. Remove them from my email address.
    1. Re:SIX dimensions?!? by nacturation · · Score: 1

      Get off my imaginary axis and get real, you kids!

      --
      Want to improve your Karma? Instead of "Post Anonymously", try the "Post Humously" option.
    2. Re:SIX dimensions?!? by joto · · Score: 1

      You had two dimensions? You lucky bastard! We would count ourself lucky if we even had one. "If you need geometry to express it, well that's no bloody use for us poor people, who can't afford that new-fashioned fancy stuff?", we used to say. We used to live inside a 0-dimensional box, at the bottom a lake, 150 of us, working dimensionless shifts in the coal-mine, sharing one bit of gravel between all of us to eat, and when we got home, our mother and father would kill us every night, and dance at our grave. Try telling that to young people of today, and they won't believe you!

    3. Re:SIX dimensions?!? by Have+Brain+Will+Rent · · Score: 1

      You had dimensions? When I was a young physicist we didn't even have a point! All we had was a single real number! Mind you we didn't complain! No siree Bob! We could change that number all we wanted and we just projected coordinates in all those fancy shmancy hypothetical dimensions down onto our one number and considered ourselves lucky! Mind you we had it easy in comparison to our fathers. Sure, they had a number. But it was just a whole number and yet they made do. You kids today don't know how lucky you are!

      --
      The tyrant will always find a pretext for his tyranny - Aesop
    4. Re:SIX dimensions?!? by Eudial · · Score: 1

      You had two dimensions? You lucky bastard! We would count ourself lucky if we even had one. "If you need geometry to express it, well that's no bloody use for us poor people, who can't afford that new-fashioned fancy stuff?", we used to say. We used to live inside a 0-dimensional box, at the bottom a lake, 150 of us, working dimensionless shifts in the coal-mine, sharing one bit of gravel between all of us to eat, and when we got home, our mother and father would kill us every night, and dance at our grave. Try telling that to young people of today, and they won't believe you!


      And you try and tell the young people of today that, they won't believe you.
      --
      GAAH! MY PRINTER IS ON FIRE!!! PUT IT OUT! PUT IT OUT!
    5. Re:SIX dimensions?!? by fyngyrz · · Score: 1

      You had a real number? Hell, we only had an integer, and it was a short, and every time we wanted to use it, we had to assemble it out of bits. And then there were fights over the signed and unsigned bits; why, when we wanted to divide or multiply, we had to work in shifts! We had to factor uphill, both ways, and our buckets overflowed constantly. You'd try to carry, and you'd end up with a half-carry, and the supervisor didn't like that, no sir. Real numbers. Bah. That won't float around here.

      --
      I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
    6. Re:SIX dimensions?!? by jlowery · · Score: 1

      You had integers? Why, back in my day, the only numbers we had were imaginary! No real numbers for us, nosirree! None of those whole numbers, neither! Back then, Peono's axioms where just a glint in Peano's eye! And Euler was just a small dark smudge my my driveway!

      --
      If you post it, they will read.
    7. Re:SIX dimensions?!? by orgelspieler · · Score: 1

      when we wanted to divide or multiply, we had to work in shifts!
      Bwahahaha! I assume you mean these? :-)
    8. Re:SIX dimensions?!? by fyngyrz · · Score: 1

      ...guilty as charged :-)

      --
      I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
  23. Who modded that insightful? by Manchot · · Score: 5, Funny

    I thought that my judicious use of the non-existent words "uime" and "vime" would be the first clue that I wasn't very serious.

    1. Re:Who modded that insightful? by Goalie_Ca · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Actually i think that could make very useful terminology. Please please publish a paper so that we can all start using those words :D I'm not kidding either. Calling 3 dimensions 'time' is just not very fun.

      --

      ----
      Go canucks, habs, and sens!
    2. Re:Who modded that insightful? by Manchot · · Score: 1

      Yeah, I'll get right on that, right after I spend a decade studying mathematical physics. :)

    3. Re:Who modded that insightful? by RyanFenton · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Depending on how it works out, time, possibility, and variance might be good names.

      Time is a line of in a field of possibility for our space and time, which in turn is a sliver of all potential variance in all spaces and times.

      Each is a coordinate in being able to find an object, and an object can stretch across each.

      Ryan Fenton

    4. Re:Who modded that insightful? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, I'll get right on that, right after I spend a decade studying mathematical physics. :)

      As opposed to non-mathematical physics? :)

      Physics is the attempt to explain the universe... using math.

    5. Re:Who modded that insightful? by spazekaat · · Score: 0

      I thought that my judicious use of the non-existent words "uime" and "vime" would be the first clue that I wasn't very serious.


      Of course not....

      Let's see......"uime" + "vime" -> factoring algorithm = "um"ime -> bad babblefish = OMG! URINE!!

      IANAMP - I am not a Math person (obviously !!!) :-)
    6. Re:Who modded that insightful? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sometimes the mods like to be funny, too. :)

    7. Re:Who modded that insightful? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe the mods want to give you karma, and funny does not give karma.

    8. Re:Who modded that insightful? by salec · · Score: 1

      Well, the sooner you start...

    9. Re:Who modded that insightful? by Gilmoure · · Score: 1

      Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball.

      --
      I drank what? -- Socrates
    10. Re:Who modded that insightful? by Frostalicious · · Score: 1

      ûime:
      drûime-flûime-kûime-oprûime-rûime-sjûime-zûime

      Admit it, you were being insightful, in Dutch!

    11. Re:Who modded that insightful? by owlstead · · Score: 1

      Yes, but why do they have to rime with time? Darn!

    12. Re:Who modded that insightful? by Eli+Gottlieb · · Score: 1

      You mean like a Probability axis? Shit, we're in a Plural Zone. This whole place could cease to exist at any moment!

    13. Re:Who modded that insightful? by RyanFenton · · Score: 1

      More like a possibility space. Time is an expansion of a single possibility across evaluation of physical rules. Possibility is changing any variable in the world, to get new time-spaces based on that difference. Variance is changing the nature of the universe itself in some way, which in turn changes the possibility within it.

      The trick is that all possibilities are mapped, and all universes are represented. That means that if you want to find anything that can exist in any universe, you just need one set/range of coordinates.

      In terms of real-world application, we can map the start of our universe in terms of universal variance change, the extremely small scales in terms of possibility change, and the larger scales in terms of time change.

      Ryan Fenton

  24. Time Cube Proves You Stupid by fishbowl · · Score: 0, Troll

    Evil Educated "Singularity"
    Stupid - ignores the Cubic
    Wisdom of Wisest Human
    and The Greatest Thinker.

    www.timecube.com

    Four Simultaneous Corner Days
    In One Rotation of EARTH

    --
    -fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
    1. Re:Time Cube Proves You Stupid by zish · · Score: 1

      I was thinking the exact same thing. I would mod up as funny if I could. ...don't know why someone decided it was a troll post.

      --
      Spork.

      P.S. Spork.
  25. and? by NRISecretAgent · · Score: 1

    That's all well and good but I'm having trouble understanding how Dark Matter manages to fit into these two new "time related" dimensions...

    1. Re:and? by khallow · · Score: 1

      Dark matter is just matter that can't be seen directly for some reason, but can be derected indirectly by observing the effect on galaxy rotation and similar things. Some types of dark matter manifest in such theories as matter that weakly interacts (perhaps only through gravity) with ordinary matter (ie, the stuff you see every day). Neutrinos, for example, are dark matter that interact with regular matter only through the weak force and gravity.

    2. Re:and? by largesnike · · Score: 1

      while having trouble understanding how these two new "time related" dimensions manage to fit into my Grey Matter

      --
      "Laugh while you can a-monkey boy!" - Dr Emilio Lizardo
    3. Re:and? by 4D6963 · · Score: 1

      I'm having trouble understanding how Dark Matter manages to fit into these two new "time related" dimensions...

      Well, I am for one having a tough time figuring out how Global Warming fits in with these new time dimensions.

      --
      You just got troll'd!
    4. Re:and? by kalirion · · Score: 1

      I have the sneaky suspicion that eventually there'll be a theory, supported by all existing evidence, which shows that Dark Matter does not in fact exist.

  26. Time's fun when you're having flies by Nefarious+Wheel · · Score: 2, Insightful
    ...quoth Kermit. I'd say it's more likely your brain is compressing detail when time seems to fly by quickly (no point in storing repetitive detail, is there?) and analyzing potential means of escape in high-res when time seems to drag.

    Or to put it succinctly, time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana (thanks Noam).

    --
    Do not mock my vision of impractical footwear
    1. Re:Time's fun when you're having flies by myowntrueself · · Score: 1

      Or to put it succinctly, time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana (thanks Noam).

      Noam?

      I think that remark was originally Marxist. Groucho Marxist.

      --
      In the free world the media isn't government run; the government is media run.
    2. Re:Time's fun when you're having flies by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Can't be. If the brain would compress time to make time fly by through boring details, why do meetings seem to last forever?

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    3. Re:Time's fun when you're having flies by SatanicPuppy · · Score: 1

      Noam Chomsky later used it as an example in a linguistics thought experiment.

      "Time flies like an arrow" is a simile, whereas "Fruit flies like a banana" is either a simile or a simple declarative sentence (depending on whether fruit is flying or infested by flies). The problem is teaching a computer to understand the difference.

      --
      ad logicam Claiming a proposition is false because it was presented as the conclusion of a fallacious argument.
    4. Re:Time's fun when you're having flies by orkysoft · · Score: 1

      I think it's to encourage you to experience the good stuff again and avoid the boring meetings in the future.

      --

      I suffer from attention surplus disorder.
    5. Re:Time's fun when you're having flies by Bent+Mind · · Score: 1

      I always figured that time flies when you are having fun because your brain is too occupied with fun to notice the passage of time. Time seems to drag during those boring meetings because your brain has nothing to otherwise occupy it.

      --
      Request a Linux Shockwave player here: http://www.macromedia.com/support/email/wishform/
    6. Re:Time's fun when you're having flies by Nefarious+Wheel · · Score: 1
      Fight or flight reflex. The boredom is going to kill you, so speed up to find an escape from it.

      To consider just how lethal boredom can be, I suggest a trip down the Nullarbor Highway at the legal speed limit.

      --
      Do not mock my vision of impractical footwear
  27. Submitted for your approval by Reality+Master+101 · · Score: 5, Funny

    As usual, Rod predicted this:

    "There is a sixth dimension beyond that which is known to man. It is a dimension as vast as space and as timeless as infinity. It is the middle ground between light and shadow, and it lies between the pit of man's fears and the summit of his knowledge. This is the dimension of imagination. It is an area that might be called the Twilight Zone."

    --
    Sometimes it's best to just let stupid people be stupid.
  28. 6? How about 10 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I wonder if anyone came across this: Tenth Dimension

  29. QFA by CrazyJim1 · · Score: 3, Funny

    Consider this analogy: if you take a plate and hold it in one hand horizontally whilst twisting it under your arm backwards through 360 degrees, your arm ends up in the air after one rotation, and it needs another 360 degree rotation to get it back to the beginning," he said.
    I think I saw that happen to a dude on UFC then he tapped out with his remaining arm.

    1. Re:QFA by megabulk3000 · · Score: 1

      I thought it was more like doing a cartwheel with one hand nailed to the floor?

  30. Science Tabloid? by Lije+Baley · · Score: 1

    Er, is Physorg in league with the Weekly World News, or is it just me?

    --
    Strange things are afoot at the Circle-K.
  31. Why 3 dimensions of space? by Chuck+Chunder · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Is there a relatively simple explanation of why we think the space we experience is actually the result of 3 distinct "dimensions"?

    Obviously from a practical point of view it is useful for use to measure things using a coordinate system with three sets of perpendicular axes but why do we think that is more than a useful logical construct? Why do we think it tells us that the very nature of the universe really stems from three distinct "dimensions"?

    There doesn't seem to be any real distinction between up/down, left/right, and forward/backward. Couldn't they all be something that is part of one "space" dimension?

    --
    Boffoonery - downloadable Comedy Benefit for Bletchley Park
    1. Re:Why 3 dimensions of space? by Coryoth · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Obviously from a practical point of view it is useful for use to measure things using a coordinate system with three sets of perpendicular axes but why do we think that is more than a useful logical construct? Why do we think it tells us that the very nature of the universe really stems from three distinct "dimensions"? There doesn't seem to be any real distinction between up/down, left/right, and forward/backward. Couldn't they all be something that is part of one "space" dimension? Well these days physics theories use 4 space-time dimensions. More importantly, with general relativity, we have a co-ordinate free description of the universe: that is, there is no preferred set of co-ordinates; you can use up/down, left,right, forward/backward, and time or radial distance from some origin, azimuth, and elevation, and time, or whatever other system (possibly mixing space and time dimensions) you like. So why do we end up with 3 (or in practice, 4) dimensions? Because regardless of what means you use to develop co-ordinates, you will always require at least (you're free to use more if you like) 3 (or 4 if we want time included) independent pieces of information to describe a location. Ultimately this comes down to the concept of the dimension of a vector space, at which point we're dealing with purely mathematical models.
    2. Re:Why 3 dimensions of space? by The_Wilschon · · Score: 1

      Take a look at pure math. Provided that space is continuous, we can model position (in one dimension) as a real number. In two dimensions, we need 2 real numbers. There is no way to use a single real number to pinpoint an arbitrary position in the cartesian plane with continuous axes. Similarly, for three continuous dimensions, you can use no fewer than 3 real numbers to describe an arbitrary position. In jargon, there is no bijection from R to R^3 (reals to reals times reals times reals). This can be (and has been) proven.

      Now, it might be that space is discrete instead. Then you could use a single number to describe an arbitrary position. In jargon, there does exists a bijection (infinitely many of them in fact) from Q to Q^3 (rationals to rationals times rationals times rationals) or N to N^3 (naturals etc.), or even N to Q^3. This can be (and has been) proven.

      But, I'm not sure there's any real argument for space being discrete. I'm not familiar with any theory which uses a discrete space, but I would conjecture that it would be much more complicated and difficult to work with. And certainly there isn't any experimental evidence which suggests a discrete space.

      --
      SIGSEGV caught, terminating

      wait... not that kind of sig.
    3. Re:Why 3 dimensions of space? by ross.w · · Score: 4, Funny
      Actually, there are 4:

      For this cause, I bow my knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, 3:15 from whom every family in heaven and on earth is named, 3:16 that he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, that you may be strengthened with power through his Spirit in the inward man; 3:17 that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; to the end that you, being rooted and grounded in love, 3:18 may be strengthened to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth, 3:19 and to know Christ's love which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.

      Ephesians 3:14-19
      --
      If my call is important, why am I talking to a recording?
    4. Re:Why 3 dimensions of space? by joto · · Score: 1

      I'm not familiar with any theory which uses a discrete space, but I would conjecture that it would be much more complicated and difficult to work with. And certainly there isn't any experimental evidence which suggests a discrete space.

      There is quantum theory. Ok, maybe it doesn't "suggest" a discrete space, but it sure as hell made it a lot more likely than it would seem with Newtons universe or relativity theory.

    5. Re:Why 3 dimensions of space? by Have+Brain+Will+Rent · · Score: 1
      Take a look at pure math. Provided that space is continuous, we can model position (in one dimension) as a real number. In two dimensions, we need 2 real numbers. There is no way to use a single real number to pinpoint an arbitrary position in the cartesian plane with continuous axes. Similarly, for three continuous dimensions, you can use no fewer than 3 real numbers to describe an arbitrary position. In jargon, there is no bijection from R to R^3 (reals to reals times reals times reals). This can be (and has been) proven.


      Even if it isn't discrete you can always encode any arbitrary triplet as a single number, F(x, y, z) -> a. And you can do it in such a way as to always be able to retrieve the three original numbers, i.e. F() is invertible.

      But, I'm not sure there's any real argument for space being discrete. I'm not familiar with any theory which uses a discrete space, but I would conjecture that it would be much more complicated and difficult to work with. And certainly there isn't any experimental evidence which suggests a discrete space.


      If I understand it correctly Quantum Loop Gravity requires space to be discrete.

      SciAm recently had an article that considered whether we could be in a two spatial dimensional universe rather than 3 spatial dimensions; it also explained why we wouldn't necessarily be able to perceive the difference.

      --
      The tyrant will always find a pretext for his tyranny - Aesop
    6. Re:Why 3 dimensions of space? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Height and depth are up and down, or positives and negatives of the Y axis. That's one dimension. So it's back to three.

    7. Re:Why 3 dimensions of space? by 4D6963 · · Score: 1

      We need 3 dimensions because 2 dimensions would not allow you to locate something in space correctly and if you had 4 well the 4th dimension would be a function of the other dimensions, and thus would be completely superfluous and could obviously lead to incorrect coordinates. So yeah, 3 dimensions are needed, nothing much, nothing less.

      --
      You just got troll'd!
    8. Re:Why 3 dimensions of space? by Dunbal · · Score: 1

      Even if it isn't discrete you can always encode any arbitrary triplet as a single number, F(x, y, z) -> a. And you can do it in such a way as to always be able to retrieve the three original numbers, i.e. F() is invertible.

            Surely this is not the case because if it was: 1) The MPAA would have adopted it to reinforce their DRM and 2) this code would already have been cracked.

      --
      Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
    9. Re:Why 3 dimensions of space? by joe+user+jr · · Score: 1

      "Is there a relatively simple explanation of why we think the space we experience is actually the result of 3 distinct "dimensions"?"

      The simplest one I'm aware of is that it's a specific case of Murphy's law.

      Three dimensions is the only space in which you can form a knot: less than three and you don't have enough dimensions to loop strings together, more than three and knots will just slip apart via the extra dimensions.

      So exactly three dimensions is the only number that will allow a pile of network cables to become hopelessly entangled with each other while you're not looking.

      --
      .sigs: Just Say No!
    10. Re:Why 3 dimensions of space? by hkBst · · Score: 1

      Dimensionality is a property of topological spaces and doesn't depend on notions of coordinates or directions. Spaces of different dimension are not homeomorphic (topologically equivalent). For topological vector spaces, dimension is just the same as number of independent directions. So even if there is no a prioiri difference between up/down, left/right, and forward/backward, if you need all three to move around, that means that there are at least three dimensions.

    11. Re:Why 3 dimensions of space? by EgoWumpus · · Score: 1

      Take a look at pure math. Provided that space is continuous, we can model position (in one dimension) as a real number. In two dimensions, we need 2 real numbers.

      I'm not an expert on topology, so I'm not going to be able to keep up with your numbers, but suppose space is continuous, but it is also curved such that if you continue on a straight line in one direction, you eventually return to a point an infinitesimal distance to the 'right' angle of where you started. Thus, a movement along a 'y' axis is in fact a movement some unknown distance along the 'x' axis, resulting in a two-dimensional space in fact being shaped like a one-dimensional line in a spiral. (In fact, this is not unlike how bits and data is managed in a hard drive.) For that matter, you might be able to explain such things as why an electron in an electron cloud can jump orbitals without apparently crossing the intermediate distance if all such matter worked on a similar principle, simply with a different movement length along your one axis. Anyway, I figure someone must have wondered this before and shown why or why it wouldn't work.
      --

      [Ego]out

    12. Re:Why 3 dimensions of space? by mr_mischief · · Score: 1

      What about the curvature of space? It has to be be described along the axes of the other dimensions, and according to relativity it is caused by gravity. Gravity is the affect of mass on other mass across other dimensions.

      So, what I'm saying (although probably not clearly), is what if mass itself is a dimension? Density is the amount of mass in a 3d volume. If mass isn't a dimension, how do we measure density?

      Sure, there's the argument that mass is just based on the number of subatomic or sub-subatomic particles in a given 3d space at a given time. But some particles have very little mass, and others are relatively very massive. What causes the difference? Is the spin of a particle or the charge of a quark what _causes_ mass? Do we measure density by the exact number of every kind of particle within a particular 3d space at a particular time (if that was even possible for us to do)?

    13. Re:Why 3 dimensions of space? by 4D6963 · · Score: 1

      Well, as for relativity, I'd say you'd need 3 more dimensions for gravity in order to represent the vector. However, these are not space dimensions. In other words, you do not need to know about the gravity vector in order to find a point in space. I mean it would be like saying "Point P is at 23.53,0.23,3.12 and its gravity vector is 0.32,1.56,0.08". We don't care where the gravity vector is.

      what if mass itself is a dimension?

      Well anything can be considered a dimension, heat, pressure, gravity. I got a preoblem with people who can't make a difference between a dimension and a space-dimension. Until I'm proven wrong, there are 3 space dimensions, period.

      --
      You just got troll'd!
    14. Re:Why 3 dimensions of space? by Dread_ed · · Score: 1

      Idiot! You make the mistake of reading a translation. In the original Klingon there are actually 7!

      --
      When the only tool you have is a claw hammer every problem starts to look like the back of someone's skull.
    15. Re:Why 3 dimensions of space? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Newton's inverse square law of gravity F~R^{-2} shows us that the force is mediated by a three-dimensional space. One could think of the force being equally distributed over a spherical shell of size R. This is also true for electromagnetic waves (light). The flux (amount of light) received from a candle at distance R, goes like R^{-2}.
      This teaches us that there is nothing seeping out to any higher spacial dimensions than the third (or conservation of energy would be violated!). So having three spacial dimensions is a rigorously tested observational fact.

      Johan

    16. Re:Why 3 dimensions of space? by mr_mischief · · Score: 1

      I never said it was a space dimension. There is a sense that anything which can be measured directly instead of needing to be a derivative calculation is a dimension. However, I'm what I'm asking is in the sense that a dimension is something which is a simple measurement that cannot be calculated on its own at all. One can only measure it directly with a reference-based instrument or calculate it in reverse from a compound measurement which involves the simpler one.

      For instance, a volume is a compound measurement because it is in terms of the three dimensions of space. But height of he container can only be measured directly or calculated from a volume or area.

      Heat is the speed of motion for a particular number of atoms or molecules in a certain area of space. That's clearly not an independent dimension. It can be calculated by knowing the conditions without measurement. Pressure is the force exerted by mass, heat, and energy upon a surface. It can be calculated by knowing the conditions without measurement. Gravity is a force associated with mass, and it is currently not very well understood.

      Mass is not like heat, volume, or pressure in those ways. You can calculate (theoretically) the amount of mass in an object by counting the number of atoms and knowing the mass of those atoms. But how do you know the mass of the atoms? Even if you go down to the smallest particles, count them all, and add up all of their masses, you're still directly measuring mass. You're not calculating the mass of the electron from something which is a factor of mass.

      Does the mass come from somewhere or something? If so, where or what? Can we calculate mass from charge or spin? If so, that makes charge or spin a dimension unless we can determine some way to factor those, doesn't it?

    17. Re:Why 3 dimensions of space? by 4D6963 · · Score: 1

      I thought we were talking about dimensions and gravity and stuff, but if you wanna talk about mass, let's talk about it.

      I don't think that charge or spin have any influence on the mass of atoms, it seems that mass of matter is the sum of the masses of its electrons, protons and neutrons. And these particles are fundamental particles, and they have a mass, and it's like that, just accept it, lol. So yeah, to answer directly to your question, mass comes from these fundamental particles, period. And I know that cause I like to consult Wikipedia ;-)

      Oh and if mass is different from heat or pressure, that's because you measure/calculate the mass of an arbitrary volume of stuff, or of discrete objects, as you can point to any point anywhere you want and say "in this very point temperature is 23 C, pressure is 1015 hPa" but you can't say "in this very point mass is 5.6 kg"

      --
      You just got troll'd!
    18. Re:Why 3 dimensions of space? by The_Wilschon · · Score: 1

      Yes. I stand corrected. There does exist a bijection from R to R^n. That is surprising to me. I was definitely wrong about the negation having been proven (unless of course ZFC and friends turn out to be inconsistent :).

      --
      SIGSEGV caught, terminating

      wait... not that kind of sig.
    19. Re:Why 3 dimensions of space? by mr_mischief · · Score: 1

      Okay, so if they're fundamental and can't be measured in other terms, how does that not constitute a dimension?

      Temperature is measured at the instrument level as you say, but that's not what temperature really is. The instrument is a compound one, measuring multiple components of what makes up temperature. Temperature is the amount of motion of a number of atoms or molecules. The temperature as in degrees Kelvin, Celsius, or Fahrenheit are a useful shorthand for how many particles are moving how fast at particular density of particles.

      Pressure likewise is defined as a compound of dimensions. It is even usually expressed as a vector of force per area.

      You can measure the mass (theoretically, although not practically) of a single subatomic particle. If it's as fundamental as that particle's height, length, depth, position (in x,y,z dimensions) in the space around it, and the time at which the measurements were taken then how is it not a dimension? That's what a dimension is: a fundamental property of something that is measurable only in arbitrary standardized units.

    20. Re:Why 3 dimensions of space? by jc42 · · Score: 1

      [F]or three continuous dimensions, you can use no fewer than 3 real numbers to describe an arbitrary position.

      Oh, nonsense. Anyone with the slightest understanding of real numbers can give you lots of ways to do it.

      For an especially trivial one, write the 3 number in some base (I'll use decimal), pad them on either end with as many zeroes as you need to make them the same length (infinitely on the right if need be), and map the 3 digits in any position to 3 successive digits. Thus, (17.534, 7.5, 23.9937) maps to 102773.559309403007. The inverse mapping is left as an exercise for the reader. I'll also leave handling negatives to the reader, with a hint that this is done inside computers without the need for any special hardware symbol for '-'.

      In fact, there are an infinite number of such mappings between a Euclidean 3-space and the real line. I just mentioned a simple one that most readers should understand. Most of such mappings aren't continuous, of course, but that wasn't a requirement for the task. If you want a continuous mapping from real numbers to a Cartesian 3-space, you will need to use at least 3 numbers per point.

      (Yeah, I know: Picky, picky ... ;-)

      --
      Those who do study history are doomed to stand helplessly by while everyone else repeats it.
    21. Re:Why 3 dimensions of space? by Old+Wolf · · Score: 1

      For an especially trivial one, write the 3 number in some base (I'll use decimal), pad them on either end with as many zeroes as you need to make them the same length (infinitely on the right if need be), and map the 3 digits in any position to 3 successive digits. Thus, (17.534, 7.5, 23.9937) maps to 102773.559309403007.

      This isn't a bijection -- (17.534, 7.499999...., 23.9937) goes to a different point, but the three numbers are the same. You can't solve this by saying 'dont allow numbers ending in 9999...' because you have to have 0.991991991991... map to something.

      It's also not obvious to me how you're handling negatives. Computers handle negatives with a sign bit. Where's your bit going?

    22. Re:Why 3 dimensions of space? by 4D6963 · · Score: 1

      Well just what I said, you can say "in this precise point the pressure is 1015 hPa" and not "in this precise point the mass is 12.4 g". See, for you to measure mass, you gotta choose a volume of some precise stuff. If you choose to measure one atom you'll get quite a different mass than if you measure a million of them, as, for example, for pressure or temperature, it doesn't matter whether you take 1 cc or 10 cubic meters, you'll still get the same pressure and temperature.

      Now as for what dimensions are, well, you can choose what they are to your convenience, only I wonder how you can represent mass as a dimension if you try to represent for example a 3 (space) dimensional area, unless of course you try to represent the mass of each atom, but it doesn't really make sense..

      --
      You just got troll'd!
    23. Re:Why 3 dimensions of space? by TheoMurpse · · Score: 1

      Is there a relatively simple explanation of why we think the space we experience is actually the result of 3 distinct "dimensions"?
      Last year, I went to a talk given by a physics professor at my university. The audience for this talk was honors students in natural sciences, so he started out the talk by posing some questions to us to find out our level of expertise (this wasn't just physicists and mathematicians in the audience).

      He asked, "Why do we have three spatial dimensions?" We, the audience, then proceeded to guess for a few minutes (for what it's worth, I guessed that it was because of the Holy Trinity). He interrupted us after a while and said that if we figured out the answer we should let him know, because "there is a Nobel Prize in it for us."

      Long story short, no, there is no explanation at all for why we have 3 spatial dimensions.
  32. Cubic deja vu by BlackSabbath · · Score: 1

    Having just read http://www.timecube.com/ for a laugh and then reading the PhysOrg news item, all the references to "ultra-hyperbolic spaces" and rotations read a little too much like Gene Ray's rants to be comfortable. The only thing missing was the obligatory:

    Your 4 dimensional space makes you EVIL! SIX dimensional ultra-hyperbole is absolute but ignored by stupid/evil educators.

  33. Dewey B. Larson? by AJWM · · Score: 1

    Without wading through the papers (hey, this is /.) this sounds a lot like Dewey B. Larson's 3-D space/3-D time theories. Mind, I haven't read Larson's stuff since I was in high school (my senior year physics teacher was a fan of his theories.) Maybe he was on to something.

    --
    -- Alastair
    1. Re:Dewey B. Larson? by zenmaster00 · · Score: 1

      Yes, Larson's model was 6-dimensional: a 3-D space with a reciprocally related 3-D time. However, it involved some novel concepts like "scalar motion" and was based on Euclidean geometry. In Larson's system, "directions" are primarily magnitudes (scalar quantities), not our notion of vectors.

      Here's a collection of multi-dimensional time theories:

      http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtopic=5522

  34. don't see why anyone gets so excited by this by superwiz · · Score: 1

    Especially in the CS crowd. By dimension they don't actually mean that you can move through that space as you do through your familiar Euclidian space. They just mean that there are 4,6 or whatever independent variables describing the conditions of the system... Ever seen a 6 dimensional array? Whohoo.. So that baseball collection you were organizing is also "6-dimensional".

    --
    Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
    1. Re:don't see why anyone gets so excited by this by longonejohn · · Score: 1

      No, this is a little bit different from simply 6 dimensional arrays. The physical theories of these days already use entities with more components than 3 [or 4 in minkowski space and general relativity]. Ever heard of tensors, etc? All these quantities are "fields" on the basic 3 [or 4] dimensional spacetime. One example would be the energy-momentum-tensor which has 20 independent components IIRC. But in this theory the dimensionality of the basic space is changed. Thus there really are six orthogonal directions in space. And the physically relevant quantities are then fields on this 6-dimensional spacetime. I am not in the position to understand the paper. But i suppose these extra two dimensions need not really stand on an equal footing with the traditional 3 [or 4] dimensions of everyday experience.. They might be i.e. "looped" or in some other way very "smallish". Or it might be an artefact of resulting physical theories base on this six-dimensional spacetime, that we never travel in these two orthogonal directions. Who knows.

    2. Re:don't see why anyone gets so excited by this by superwiz · · Score: 1

      Umm... Ok, time to troll.... Are you serious? You respond to what I said with "I haven't read the paper" and "who knows"? And yet you don't mind telling me that I am wrong? What is this? Politics? You drop the word "tensor" and everything changes and becomes scientific? I am assuming by "fields" you mean "vector fields" and not "fields". Yeah, I am familiar with tensors... on real and p-adic manifolds. You would have to work pretty hard to explain to me why they are anything but a way to represent a certain abstraction of data rather than the actual data.

      --
      Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
    3. Re:don't see why anyone gets so excited by this by longonejohn · · Score: 1

      I actually glanced over the paper. Transporting a message across this text medium is hard. If i came across high nosed or teacher like, i am sorry. Anyways, the point made is that there is a significant difference between i.e. simply stacking up more numbers (making the array larger) per point of the space and changing the dimensionality of the underlying space. Of course you are right in that we now simply need six coordinates to single out a point of the space instead of the previous four. But we aren't done with that. If we had i.e. a theory somewhat close to general relativity on such a space, then the tangent space at each point would become six dimensional, too. Thus vectors and 1-forms gain two more components, too. And higher rank tensors need more components.. I.e. a rank 2 tensor (co- and contravariance left aside) needs 6*6 = 36 components already as opposed to a rank 2 tensor on a 4 dimensional spacetime, where we only need 4*4 = 16 components.
      In this sense the change of the dimensionality of the underlying space is very different from just using 2 more numbers in our theories..
      Maybe this was clear to you from the start though and i have misread your post. My apologies if that's the case. I might have interpreted the words "independent variables describing the conditions of the system" wrongly. This, to me, sounds more like the number of values needed i.e. to describe the state of a field at each point (i.e. the number of independent tensor components needed for i.e. the different quantities used in the maxwell equations in tensorial notation).

    4. Re:don't see why anyone gets so excited by this by superwiz · · Score: 2

      My turn to appologize for a high-strung tone. I guess my frustration with all this over-hyping of every time physicists come out with a new way to describe data of a flux by the number of independent variables being called "dimensions" in the popular literature is over-mystifying the subject. It makes it sound too religious. Granted my background is much more math than physics, but it is my understanding that at least in the case of relativity you can always normalize all calculations with respect to time... there is a good chance I am wrong on that. But! Isn't all "modern" physics essentially Newtonian physics with added corrections for curvature? And so the "space" is still essentially 3 dimensional. Meaning that it is impossible to traverse the other "dimensions" in both directions. And given that criterion for a "dimension of space" (vs "dimension of data") can it still be claimed that the space is not 3d?

      --
      Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
    5. Re:don't see why anyone gets so excited by this by longonejohn · · Score: 1

      "but it is my understanding that at least in the case of relativity you can always normalize all calculations with respect to time..." I don't know what you mean precisely by the tem "normalize" here. "But! Isn't all "modern" physics essentially Newtonian physics with added corrections for curvature? And so the "space" is still essentially 3 dimensional. Meaning that it is impossible to traverse the other "dimensions" in both directions"

      The space in relativity theories is indeed 4 dimensional. But the 4th dimension (time) is seriously intermingled with the other three dimensions. A massive body moving through space must move through time. And the coordinates get "mixed" when transforming into a different initial frame. Think of a normal rotation in euclidian 3-space. The coordinates get mixed. In the case of relativity a coordinate system change is a parametrized linear transformation on minkowski 4-space (one that leaves the norm of vector differences invariant, so basically it's a "rotation" in minkowski space). So the fourth coordinate cannot be "normalized" away. Except for maybe in the classical limit of relative velocities that are small compared to the speed of light. But then again, in the case of light they cannot be done away at all.

      I'm starting to tell fairy tales now :) But i think the most clear way to see why this could be indeed fundamentally new physics is by way of the noether theorem. The notion of a symmetries in the physical space gives raise to "conserved values" like energy, momentum, etc.. There are some aspects of particle physics where spatial symmetries "break" (i.e. some particle descriptions are not invariant to symmetry operations). Maybe the same aspect can be formulated in a higher dimensional space without this break of symmetry. In this way the higher dimensional space could maybe lead to new insights..

      Maybe someone with more of a clue might want to comment on this

  35. Number of the Beast by Mal-2 · · Score: 4, Informative

    This sounds amazingly like the premise of a Heinlein novel, The Number of the Beast, which supposes that there are three dimensions of time as well as three dimensions of space, and that travel is possible on the two axes we normally do not recognize. This allows visiting realities that can be subtly or vastly different from our own, weighted by probability.

    It's not a bad concept, but it does get rather silly when the selected locations include Barsoom, Oz, and the "Future History" realms of Lazarus Long. A bit like the plot in Frank Zappa's "The Adventures of Greggery Peccary", it attempts so much that none of it really comes off right. The main difference is that Zappa intended it that way (and backed it up with interesting, non-repeating music) and I don't think Heinlein did. He did intend it to be campy, but it's way beyond that.

    I am willing to bet he is neither the first nor the last to propose this, but at least I can point out "prior art" where I see it.

    Mal-2

    --
    How is the Riemann zeta function like Trump rallies? Both have an endless number of trivial zeros.
  36. Try to imagine... by chris_eineke · · Score: 1

    six-dimensional porn!

    *stabs out eyes*

    --
    "All you have to do is be fragile and grateful. So stay the underdog." Chuck Palahniuk, Choke
    1. Re:Try to imagine... by kalirion · · Score: 1

      I, for one, don't want to see how that porn actress looked 25 years ago or how she'll look in 50.

  37. Now we can visit 1955... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And stop Biff from using the Almanac! And then we can slide into Toonworld and drop it off!

  38. Cranks love their Tesla by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What is it about Tesla that attracts the kooks?

    1. Re:Cranks love their Tesla by iMySti · · Score: 1

      They've listened to too much David Bowie.

    2. Re:Cranks love their Tesla by salec · · Score: 5, Insightful

      What is it about Tesla that attracts the kooks?

      That's an easy one:

      - spectacular (unlike subatomic particles physics ones which are observed only indirectly, over sensor arrays and computer imagery), high energy experiments, plus
      - his own tendency to perform publicity stunts and make bombastic, yet sherlock-holmes-esque mysterious announcements (because... Tesla was independent, not academic researcher and was always on a hunt for venture capital) about his future work, plus,
      - on top of it all his failure to accomplish something he announced, which could had been very revolutionary in every sense (perhaps most notable being social sense) of that word, apparently not because it was physically impossible, but because he was pulled back by "The Man", gave him an aureole of saint-like hero in eyes of a common man (as well as kooks).

      There are numerous examples that oral traditions attach mythical supernatural (or at least greater than actual) powers to beloved heroes in collective folk memory. Tesla is one of most recent of such characters and perhaps first that transcended national and ethnic barriers (after all, in his own mind his public was global). Other notable popular hero figures are, of course, Einstein, Mahatma Gandhi, Bruce Lee, Mother Theresa, ... (apologies for anyone left out of the list)... but those of them who (apparently) didn't fulfill their full perceived potential will of course generate more legends (Bruce Lee). Well, the same goes for legend-generating potential of antiheroes (no mentions, we DON'T say their cursed, wicked names aloud :D !), more so because they tend to be stopped in their tracks more often (if they don't, as some notable dictators who died of old age, they don't make it into legends and quickly fade into oblivion).
    3. Re:Cranks love their Tesla by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      You are hereby forbidden to employ parenthetical clauses for the lesser of one year or until you've learned how to (fucking) use them.

    4. Re:Cranks love their Tesla by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You forgot, for those in need of it, the obligatory link.

    5. Re:Cranks love their Tesla by mstahl · · Score: 1

      Two words, my anonymous, cowardly friend: Death Ray

    6. Re:Cranks love their Tesla by salec · · Score: 1

      Guilty.

  39. Oblig. by Eudial · · Score: 1, Funny

    I, for one, welcome our new six dimensional overlords...

    --
    GAAH! MY PRINTER IS ON FIRE!!! PUT IT OUT! PUT IT OUT!
    1. Re:Oblig. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Slashdot must have a large number of bdsm fetish people who just can't seem to resist modding up overlord comments.

      I for one would certainly welcome less up-modding of lame evil overlord jokes.

  40. Time by Filbertish · · Score: 1

    I've always believed there was more than the one dimension of time we experience. I never really could back it up, it just made sense that if space had more than one dimension time probably did as well.

    1. Re:Time by joto · · Score: 1

      I'm sorry to break it to you, but NO, that doesn't make sense!

  41. Extended Heim Theory by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It reminds me of 8 dimensional Extended Heim Theory:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heim_theory
    This theory is under test by ESA & NASA and Berkeley (M.Tajmar work).

    /Joss

  42. What about the important facts by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    In this six dimensional universe .. do they have a PIZZA HUT that delivers?

    I mean .. its 30 mins or its free .. add a bit of extra dimensional theory and my pizza should arrive in less than 30 mins .. and still be hot and fresh.

    NOW .. thats a universal theory worth waiting for . . . .

    May even tip ;)

    1. Re:What about the important facts by maxwell+demon · · Score: 2

      Well, given that this theory has 3 time dimensions, you'll have to specify a three-dimensional waiting time. As in: "We will deliver in about 30 minutes t-time, 15 minutes u-time, and 40 minutes v-time."

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
  43. Project deadlines may now be met! by Alain+Williams · · Score: 3, Funny

    Now if only I can learn how to use those 2 extra time dimensions, I might get the extra month that I need to complete the project before it is due tomorrow.

    Great news for project planners everywhere!

    How do we redraw gantt charts to represent these extra dimensions ?

    1. Re:Project deadlines may now be met! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Wait until we have Gant u and Gant v charts ...

      Print them out, and tape them together so that they form three sides of a box.

      As a bonus, you can fit it in any additional tasks in the space between them.

    2. Re:Project deadlines may now be met! by hey! · · Score: 1

      Nothing says those dimensions have to be big enough to get anything macrocosmic done in.

      After all, time has a finite extent at least in one dimension. It doesn't make sense to ask what happened "before" the Big Bang, since the Big Bang is the start of time. It may even be finite in the other direction. At some point, entropy in the universe may make adding new information to the universe impossible, which seems like a reasonable definition for "the end of time".

      So, maybe these dimensions are really, really small but large enough to underlie various funky quantum phenomena.

      This may be a corollary of Murphy's law: the extra dimensions might be big enough to enable the butterfly effect to shoot your project to hell, but not big enough to raid for project slack.

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    3. Re:Project deadlines may now be met! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe if you spent less time reading and posting comments on pointless forums you'd be more productive?

  44. Re:Why 3 dimensions of space? Peano curve by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There are bijections between R^n and R^p. More
    generally, if E is an infinite set E and E^2
    have the same cardinal.

    There are even continuous surjections from
    R to R^p (Peano curve).

    What does not exist is homeomorphisms between R^p and R^n,
    there are no continuous bijections from R^p to R^n
    with a continuous inverse (if p different from n). R^n and R^p
    are not topologically equivalent.

  45. 3 x 2? by ZurichPrague · · Score: 1

    Maybe it could be described that for each vector of space there is a concommitant time dimension which is intertwined with it, so it could also be described as three dimensions and each of those dimensions is split into its own space dimension and time dimension.

    1. Re:3 x 2? by maxwell+demon · · Score: 1

      Or maybe space simply has complex coordinates: X = x + i t, Y = y + i u, Z = z + i v.

      ds^2 = dX^2 + dY^2 + dZ^2 = (dx + i dt)^2 + (dy + i du)^2 + (dz + i dv)^2 = dx^2 + dy^2 + dz^2 - dt^2 - du^2 - dv^2 + 2i (dx dt + dy du + dz dv)

      The real part is exactly the spacetime metric proposed here. The imaginary part might then have an as-yet unknown meaning.

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
  46. Six Axis by dintech · · Score: 1

    Wow, is the PS3 really so advanced? Now we know what that funky controller is for...

  47. Time doesn't exist? by zymano · · Score: 1

    Hasn't anyone heard most physicists say that time is an illusion of motion?

    1. Re:Time doesn't exist? by laejoh · · Score: 0

      time an illusion of motion? Lunchtime double so!

    2. Re:Time doesn't exist? by Bent+Mind · · Score: 1

      time is an illusion of motion

      Funny, I always figured motion was an illusion of time.

      --
      Request a Linux Shockwave player here: http://www.macromedia.com/support/email/wishform/
  48. of course they are six! by godzillopiteco · · Score: 1

    Chuck Norris being the first two.

  49. Um, "Number of the Beast"? by Catbeller · · Score: 1

    This was Robert Heinlein's throwaway theory of 3 space and 3 time dimensions in "The Number of the Beast". Just throwing it in before someone brings up some anime with the idea.

  50. interpret by ch-chuck · · Score: 2

    Can anybody explain this in terms we can understand, like rubber sheets and spinning balls?

    --
    try { do() || do_not(); } catch (JediException err) { yoda(err); }
    1. Re:interpret by joto · · Score: 2, Funny

      Can anybody explain this in terms we can understand, like rubber sheets and spinning balls?

      Personally I would prefer an explanation using marshmallow fishing rods and ringing alarm bells.

    2. Re:interpret by Dunbal · · Score: 1

      Can anybody explain this in terms we can understand, like rubber sheets and spinning balls?

      OK. Take a rubber sheet. Scrunch it up into a ball, and spin it. There's your new space-time.

      --
      Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
  51. Thermodynamics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I vaguely recall reading a statement that more than one time-like dimension would mess up the concept of entropy in general and especially the second law of thermodynamics.

    Never came around to actually reading the paper, but maybe someone else did?

  52. Why call them consequences ? by tibike77 · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Well, what about a slight point of view shift instead ?
    Do you ever think of yourself "well, this object is 3m away on the x axis, 4m away of the y axis, and 5 m away on the z axis" ? Or do you just think to yourself "this object is about 7m away" ? And then, your other senses tell you what direction the object is ?
    So why assume whatever it is we call "time" is actually time, when instead it could be just as well the "time-like total distance", and we just lack the sensory equipment to differentiate (or orientate ourselves) in the 3-dimensional time-like variable ?

    Now, we are moving almost in the realm of supernatural here (won't say tinfoilhattery... yet), but what if all "extraordinary abilities" some people pretend they have MIGHT actually be real to a certain degree, and the only thing differentiating a "normal" person from "them" is that they can somehow perceive at least one or both of the other "time-like" dimensions... and even "manipulate" matter independently alongside each of them ? To somebody who lacks the proper senses, it can appear as something impossible, when in fact it's just something unperceivable ?

    Well, it's just a far-fetched theory, but who knows ?

    --
    By reading this signature you agree to not disagree with the post you just read.
    1. Re:Why call them consequences ? by JohnFluxx · · Score: 1

      You think "that object is about 7 meters away due West". What would be the equivalent for that in time?

      And actually the 'distance' between two objects in our 4 dimensional space is distance = x + y + z - ct

      where t is the time it takes light to travel to that point.

      Also on your last point, there aren't any scientifically confirmed cases of anything supernatural, so there's nothing that needs explaining.

    2. Re:Why call them consequences ? by tibike77 · · Score: 1

      For space, we have that sensory ability to not only say "about 7m away" but also "due West".
      For time, right now, assuming time would be three-dimensional too, most/all humans just have the "seconds away" sense, not the "heading" too.
      In case time is not just unidimensional (so it's not only a "time distance"), then if and only if you could somehow have a "time heading" sense, then you could have a humanly explainable equivalent.

      Also true, no (scientifically or otherwise thoroughly) confirmed cases of anything "supernatural", that's why I called it a "far-fetched theory" :)

      --
      By reading this signature you agree to not disagree with the post you just read.
    3. Re:Why call them consequences ? by Bat+Country · · Score: 1

      Just to play the devil's advocate, there are no scientifically confirmed cases of something being made from strings either, but that doesn't mean that string theory isn't worth investigating.

      --
      The land shall stone them with the bread of his son.
  53. Yet another hypothesis of Three-Dimensional Time by iaculus · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I've been rather fascinated with Peter Carroll's hypothesis of 6-dimensional space-time for a while now. He has a few dozen articles up at specularium.org

    iirc he suggests that 3-dimensional space is curved in one of the extra time dimensions to form a finite, boundless 4-dimensional hypersphere, and 1-dimensional time is curved in the other extra time dimension to form a finite, boundless 2-dimensional circle.

    He makes some falsifiable predictions based on his theory (from http://specularium.org/index.php?option=com_conten t&task=view&id=26&Itemid=55&Itemid=1 ):

    9. Predictions from the Hyperwarp 6D model

    a) No more generations of particles can exist. (Subject only to falsification)

    b) No Higgs particle exists. (Subject only to falsification)

    c) As it seems that no known natural process except, perhaps, neutron star or black hole collisions could cause a sufficiently large quantity of matter to undergo a sufficient acceleration to produce graviton bosons in detectable quantities, we shall never easily detect gravity waves (subject only to falsification).

    d) The principle of t-axis neutrality does permit the existence of a number of exotic bosons corresponding to configurations such as :

    d-quark/positron, or d-antiquark/electron or any type of quark/antineutrino or antiquark/neutrino

    Within Hyperwarp 6D theory a "leptoquark boson" does not really represent a fifth force of nature, anymore than weak (W-, W+, or Zo) bosons represent anything other than a special case of electromagnetism. See Leptoquarks and Neutron Stars paper.

    e) Spacetime singularities larger than fundamental particles do not exist. The quantisation of particle properties in terms of spacetime curvature implies a quantisation of spacetime itself and the top quark represents the maximum possible curvature at any point.

    f) Neutrinos can annihilate against neutrinos in head on collisions. Antineutrinos can likewise annihilate against antineutrinos. Such collisions could create photon pairs or pairs of neutrinos of other generations. This controversial proposition lies open to experimental confirmation. It may also contribute a solution to the solar neutrino problem.

  54. Universe would disappear... by fahrbot-bot · · Score: 2, Informative
    The answer is simple: the powers that be do NOT want the masses to understand the true nature of the universe because if we did understand it, limitation and impossibility wouldn't exist.

    Actually, if we were to ever understand the true nature of the universe it would immediately disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre. Some people say that this has already happened...
    (Thank you Douglas Adams.)

    --
    It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
    1. Re:Universe would disappear... by simm1701 · · Score: 1

      According to buddhism once you reach enlitenment you will fully understand the nature of the universe and you can stop reincarnating...

      I just wondered though... do you stop reincarnating because they take your season ticket away for cheating???

      --
      $_="Slashdotter";$syn="OTT";s;..;;;sub _{print shift||$_};s!ash!Perl !;s=$syn=ack=i;tr+LLEd+BLAH+;_"Just Another ";_
  55. Stick that in your pipe, Einstein by Dr_Bliss · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Einstein he may not be, but the author of the Time Cube holds some great patents

    • * U.S. Patent 3,974,591 Chum dispensing attachment for fishing rigs, granted 1976.
    • * U.S. Patent 4,095,365 Bait bucket, granted 1978.
    • * U.S. Patent 4,095,793 Marble game resembling golf, granted 1978.
    • * U.S. Patent 4,707,869 Swim through safety division line for pools, granted 1987.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gene_Ray

  56. Dimensions everywhere by suv4x4 · · Score: 1

    Apparently some people, erm, scientists, forget that time as a dimension is just a metaphor meant to ease explanation of certain mathematical formulas, as found in special and general relativity.

    This obsession with throwing in more and more dimension until it appears to make sense is not going to take us anywhere. String theory is already at 12 dimensions in some of its versions. There's talk about more time dimensions, "curled up" dimensions and other such nonsense.

    The only fact there are such a multitude of "multidimensional" theories, each one assuming hundreds of untested things in the name of arriving at proper results on the bottom line, says, that most likely none of them hold ground in reality.

    Not that you can blame them, science work when you can test and prove/disprove your theory, on quantum level, and trying to create a model for intangible things, this is infuriatingly difficult.

    1. Re:Dimensions everywhere by Dunbal · · Score: 1

      The only fact there are such a multitude of "multidimensional" theories, each one assuming hundreds of untested things in the name of arriving at proper results on the bottom line, says, that most likely none of them hold ground in reality.

            Reminds me of Douglas Adams' "Dirk Gently", a private detective who when faced with an unsurmountable problem, would write a whole bunch of gibberish on a paper, and then claim that he had made the task simpler. Because now all he had to do was translate what he had written into the answer. Yet another example of how our late and beloved Mr. Adams was quite the sarcastic bastard :)

      --
      Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
    2. Re:Dimensions everywhere by Goaway · · Score: 1

      Apparently some people, erm, slashdot posters, forget that they know fuck all about physics.

      Special and general relativity both are built around the very central concept that time is a dimension just as much as the three dimensions of space is. Neither theory would make any sense if this wasn't the case, and neither would reality, where the time and space directions freely get mixed up with each other all the time.

    3. Re:Dimensions everywhere by suv4x4 · · Score: 1

      Apparently some people, erm, slashdot posters, forget that they know fuck all about physics.

      Special and general relativity both are built around the very central concept that time is a dimension just as much as the three dimensions of space is.


      You're apparently pissed off at my lack of knowledge, why not walk backwards in time and stop me from posting? I mean, it's as much a dimension as the spatial ones.

      The reason people get tangled up in 40 dimensional theories is they read on the math behind relativity, and just like you did, they start forgetting that the time dimension is imaginary, or I'll quote Steven Hawking, who knows fuck about physics:

      "...we may regard our use of imaginary time and Euclidean space-time as merely a mathematical device (or trick) to calculate answers about real space-time."

      In relativity, time and the spatial dimensions share a lot (not ALL) of their properties, but math aside, this is still a manifestation of the properties of the spatial dimensions and interactions occurring within them. Not only isn't time a real dimension, time doesn't exist at all. It's an abstract concept that makes it easier for us to come up with constructs based upon it.

      Lots of fallacies form when you forget you created a concept as an instrument to better understand the world we live in.

    4. Re:Dimensions everywhere by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Special and general relativity both are built around the very central concept that time is a dimension just as much as the three dimensions of space is.


      I bet you a square root of -1 dollars that you're wrong.
    5. Re:Dimensions everywhere by jlf278 · · Score: 1

      Certainly accepting time as even one dimension does alter the exact definition of what a dimension is. Yet, the whole concept of a space-time continuum (aside from star trek) is certainly worth exploring. And in its exploration we are bound to understand each component whether there are 4 or 6 or however many dimensions (perhaps only 3, thus validating your argument). In any case, science will always explore questions that remain unproven (and often ones that have been). Surely you cannot say there is no doubt to the existence of solely 3 dimensions? For one, how would you explain the instantaneous communicative nature of spinning quantum particles? Perhaps under this 6 dimensional model, there is a logical explanation.

    6. Re:Dimensions everywhere by suv4x4 · · Score: 1

      Surely you cannot say there is no doubt to the existence of solely 3 dimensions? For one, how would you explain the instantaneous communicative nature of spinning quantum particles?

      You assume two particles should touch each other or somehow share a space or dimension, to communicate.

      Given we've most likely only uncovered a fraction of what the universe works like, what if the apparent model of the universe is "run" in another model that ties it all together.

      As a blatantly simplified example: how does a computer game hero understand what's outside the computer?

      Few conclusions follow:

      - it may be impossible to ever understand how the universe works, since we're inside it (doesn't mean we should EVER stop trying)
      - it's not up to dimensions. You may add hundreds of dimensions and you again can't approximate the "hidden model".

    7. Re:Dimensions everywhere by Goaway · · Score: 1

      "...we may regard our use of imaginary time and Euclidean space-time as merely a mathematical device (or trick) to calculate answers about real space-time."

      It's obvious you do not understand this quote. "Real space-time" refers to the unified concept of space AND time. They are not considered separate entities, as in Euclidean space-time, but all part of the greater whole that is space-time, where they mix freely. Even in the simplest spaces described by general relativity, such as the Schwarzschild metric, you cannot separate time and space, as they are fundamentally intertwined. Only in flat Minkowski space does time seem to stand out as somewhat independent of space, but even there you run into strangeness at high speeds.

  57. woe to whomever modded this funny by unity100 · · Score: 1

    come on lets get real. theres a tad bit of silliness in it about einstein being a fraud, but you, as well as i, very well know that the other parts of that about tesla are damn true.

  58. Implications by DanielMarkham · · Score: 1

    First off, aren't the scientists going to feel pretty silly if it turns out they should have stayed closer to old Einstein all along. I'd pay good money to see Brian Greene stand up at a conference and say (in church lady voice) "String theory? Never Mind"

    Secondly, this means, of course, that we're all going to need new watches. Extrapolating on our current design, the new clocks will be truly 3-dimensional, consisting of 6 wildly flailing hands poking out from a central point. We'll have the big hand, the little hand, the second hand, the other big hand, the other little hand, and the other second hand.

    Kid are going to love that! "Johnny, what time is it?" "Looks like half past a quarter till 3PM after 7AM Teacher"

    And when you ask a physicist what time it is, be prepared for a 10-minute response involving matrices and vectors. Actually, I gave up asking physcists what time it was long ago for this very reason. So maybe nothing much will change at all.

  59. Game engines may use 5D to do 3D space by JPMH · · Score: 4, Interesting
    What would it mean for there to be more than one time dimension?

    The dimensions may not be quite what you think. This paper sounds to me very like technology which is already being used in games engines and robotics applications, eg for lighting models and collision detection.

    The idea is that there are various things that make rotations of objects much nicer to handle than translations. But if you add some extra dimensions, you can turn the translations into rotations. It's to do with conformal projection. Translations on a 2D plane are difficult to handle (at least in the framework of Clifford algebra), but if you map that plane onto the surface of a sphere in 3D, then you can identify the 2D translations with rotations on the surface of the 3D sphere. Similarly, you can exchange 3D translations for rotations in 4D, if you create a new dimension which allows you to have an origin for your rotations which is lifted outside "real" 3D space. It turns out to be nice to be able to do rotations about a point at infinity, too, which you can achieve by doing the same trick to go up to 5D. A consequence is that each no-D point in 3D gets represented by a 2D surface in the 5D, a line gets turned into a 3D hypersurface, etc.

    The nice thing about rotations is that you can do them with spinors, and you can use spinors to rotate lines and planes directly without having to break them down into points. In the 5D system you can also use geometric algebra to compute directly whether and how different hypersurfaces meet, again without having to compute points and normals and things, which is good for collision detection.

    It looks to me that this article is doing pretty much the same trick, turning 4D into 6D, that the geometric algebra people are using turning 3D into 5D.

    Here's a paper from a group at Amsterdam university discussing some of this stuff, using it for a ray-tracing program. See also the previous two papers in the series, here. They've also just got a book out, "Geometric Algebra for Computer Science" (links to Amazon etc).

    There's also a company called Geomerics based in Cambridge in England that has used the technology to develop a new lighting engine, which it has just released for the Unreal platform.

  60. Consultancy fee by Channing · · Score: 1

    Can I charge 3 times as much ?

  61. It was my idea just stolen by him by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Looks like he just worked around the time to get popular. It was found by me first :)

    Proof. http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/1397999353 015649061QQtxAt

  62. Re:Yet another hypothesis of Three-Dimensional Tim by Jubedgy · · Score: 1

    "c) As it seems that no known natural process except, perhaps, neutron star or black hole collisions could cause a sufficiently large quantity of matter to undergo a sufficient acceleration to produce graviton bosons in detectable quantities, we shall never easily detect gravity waves (subject only to falsification)."

    Gravitational waves, rather. Gravity waves are an atmospheric phenomenon!

    But what I really wanted to ask: what do you mean by 'easily detect'? Is he suggesting that the LISA mission (http://lisa.nasa.gov, a large interferometer in space) is doomed to failure? Or is he saying that any gravitational waves emitted by a lower energy system (say, the Earth orbiting the Sun) are to minuscule to detect?

    --
    Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis hebes
  63. Imagining the Tenth Dimension by mahesh_gharat · · Score: 1

    Imagine upto 10th Dimension.
    URL: http://www.tenthdimension.com/

    It has a very good video to make one understand the dimensions upto 10th dimension.

  64. Scientists love their Tesla, too by fyngyrz · · Score: 4, Insightful

    All of that may have various degrees of truth to it, but you're being quite unfair by not mentioning that another key factor was that the things Tesla actually accomplished and demonstrated, many of which have found their way into our current common base of technology, were quite spectacular in terms of utility, innovation, and being leading edge for the time.

    Many researchers, academic and independent, spend their entire lives trying to come up with just one useful idea. Tesla produced them regularly and dependably.

    I often wonder what Tesla would have come up with if he was living and working in our current technological / scientific environment. In my view, the man seemed to think so far "out of the box" that you couldn't even find the box from where he was.

    --
    I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
    1. Re:Scientists love their Tesla, too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But that isn't why he attracted kooks. Plenty of people produced a lot of good work without being such kook food.

    2. Re:Scientists love their Tesla, too by fyngyrz · · Score: 1

      Look, Einstein attracts kooks. Bush attracts kooks. Actors attract kooks. The local street corner attracts kooks. I attract kooks (just check my posting history.) Basically, if you have somewhere to stand and you say something definitive, you're going to attract kooks. Its 100% irrelevant that Tesla attracts kooks. Remember the man for what he did for us and what he tried to do for us (a great deal), ignore the kooks, difficult as that may be (again, check my posting history) and get on with your life. Go read something about Tesla. Margaret Cheney's "Tesla: Man out of time" is a great read, and a real eye-opener for those who don't know much about the man.

      --
      I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
    3. Re:Scientists love their Tesla, too by salec · · Score: 1

      I attract kooks (just check my posting history.)

      Now that you mentioned that, as well as other things, apparently so do I :(.

      Also, it seems none cares to read carefully anymore, except to analyze spelling, grammar and style and offer some useful advice on improving it. Oh, well, semantics is highly overrated.

      Oh yes, rarely people read also to check for their favorite keywords, names of personal heroes and role models, see if there are some words around with connotation that is not appreciated and reply with insults or patronizing the original poster.

      If that is what "fast reading" means, you can keep it!
  65. Can't believe it hasn't been said.. by AikonMGB · · Score: 1

    SIXAXIS

    Sony was.. right? /head explodes

    Aikon-

  66. This is not new.. string theory proposes 11 by plasmacutter · · Score: 2, Interesting

    string theory proposes 11 dimensions, and while im not quite clear on how they all work, the extra dimensions have been presented on the science channel as a kind of "backstage" or "mechanical room" on which the universe is maintained, and that gaining an understanding of the properties of each dimension could lead to the holy grail "grand unification" equation.

    (for those not familiar, the grand unification equation is an extension of the equations/theorems which allow us to convert between electromagnetic and kinetic forces, and would allow us to translate between all 4 major forces by adding gravity and the force which holds atomic nuclei together)

    because of how new string theory is, i dont think there are enough findings to distinguish weather this new hypothesis might be a subset of string theory, though i could be wrong.

    --
    VLC FOR MAC IS DYING! IF YOU DEVELOP, PLEASE SAVE IT!!
    1. Re:This is not new.. string theory proposes 11 by joe+user+jr · · Score: 2, Informative
      String theory still only has one time dimension, whereas this theory proposes three time dimensions, and so is quite different, and not a subset of string theory.

      A 6-D precursor to string theory you might be mistaking this for was called Kaluza-Klein theory, if memory serves.

      One other proponent of three time dimensions, again if I remember correctly, was neo-Gurdjieffian J.G. Bennett, who christened the extra timelike dimensions "eternity" and "hyparxis" in his "The Dramatic Universe".

      --
      .sigs: Just Say No!
  67. 6 D + 1T by Grindalf · · Score: 1

    6 Dimentions, that means I'll have to rebuild this TARDIS from scratch!

    --
    The purpose of existence is to make money.
  68. One (weak anthropic) reason by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    With a force system based on particles dispersing in a straight space line, a three-dimensional system gives you a square-law relationship for force.

    If you have 2 dimensions you have a linear law and you don't get orbits (or clumping). Higher than three space dimensions and you cannot have a stable orbit.

    Three gives a square law and that allows stable orbits.

  69. Large Hardon Collider? by UnRDJ · · Score: 2, Funny

    Sounds kinky.

    1. Re:Large Hardon Collider? by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      No. Painful.

      But, well, whatever floats your boat... I, for one, dread doing a picture search on Google for that keywords.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    2. Re:Large Hardon Collider? by Catbeller · · Score: 1

      And Japanese.

  70. Got it! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I have a truly marvellous proof that this proposition...

    s^n = x^n + y^n + z^n - t^n - u^n - v^n

    ... is impossible. Alas this margin is too narrow to contain it.

  71. Erh... call me old fashioned... by Opportunist · · Score: 1

    ...but what exactly do we gain out of it?

    I'm not asking for some practical application. I know, a lot of people today ask for a practical application as soon as someone wants to do research and doesn't accept that someone has to lay the basics down first, that someone had to do the research for coherent light so we can now enjoy DVDs, but what insight does this give us?

    I do have to admit that I didn't read that paper (calling that a paper is like calling the NY phonebook a leaflet...). I do have plans for the rest of my life. Does it actually add anything "useful" to our knowledge about the universe? Does it offer a new angle of approach for other fields of research? Does it open some door, does it give us any insight?

    I mean, it's wonderful when people ponder the universe and how it works, but this seems to me like an example for research gone bananas. Research for the sake of research is all right, like I said, someone has to lay down the foundation, but what could be built on that foundation?

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    1. Re:Erh... call me old fashioned... by maxume · · Score: 1

      If somebody knew the answer to that, there wouldn't be any need to do the research.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    2. Re:Erh... call me old fashioned... by hkBst · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Erh... this is physics, or rather a new mathematical foundation for future physics. All we have been doing so far has been reverse engineering nature. Once we have the full documentation things will really start happening. Things like this are what make the world of today look nothing like the world of a hundred years from now.

    3. Re:Erh... call me old fashioned... by DorkRawk · · Score: 1

      The more we understand how the universe works, the more we can manipulate it. It is paradigm shifts that lead to major advancements. While I am by no means an expert on this sort of thing (far from it!) but something I read recently brought up an obvious point that the reason we can move forwards and backwards in spacial dimensions is because we have more than one (make 2 right turns and you're going the opposite direction). If multiple time dimensions work analogously, then an understanding of them could open up interesting possibilities.

  72. Boston Police, do not read this comment. by poot_rootbeer · · Score: 1

    Ignignokt: You and your third dimension.
    Frylock: What about it?
    Ignignokt: Oh nothing, it's cute. We have five.
    Err: Th-thousand.
    Ignignokt: Yes, five thousand.
    Err: Don't question it!

  73. The Dig by alexgieg · · Score: 2, Interesting

    This made me remember the plot for the LucasArts adventure game "The Dig".

    (Warning: spoiler follows.)

    The aliens there had discovered much time ago the two extra time dimensions, and a way to transition from space-time to 3-time (I don't remember whether this is the in-game name for the concept, but you get the idea). That worked, they discovered that in 3-time they are practically immortal, and as a result the whole alien species transitioned, losing the ability to come back, since there was no one left in space-time to activate the portal. After some centuries in 3-time, however, the aliens perceived it was a mistake, due to their livings losing all meaning since in 3-time nothing changes, ever. In the end, the humans discover this history, reopen the portal, and allow the aliens to come back into standard space-time.

    --
    Conservatism: (n.) love of the existing evils. Liberalism: (n.) desire to substitute new evils for the existing ones.
  74. TimeCube by Hao+Wu · · Score: 1

    If you ask me, Peter Carroll seems to have borrowed much from Dr. Gene Ray's "Nature's Harmonic Simultaneous 4-Day Time Cube".

    --
    I suggest you read Slashdot
  75. Present Participle Explained!! by Hwyman · · Score: 1

    Ah yes...extra time-like dimensions. If only they would have explained it that way in English class!

  76. Couple novels like this by orclevegam · · Score: 1

    There's a hard sci-fi novel out there called Twister that talks about having 6 dimensions, although the author takes liberty by allowing the main character to travel into a "shadow dimension" that he's able to open using a device he invented (by accident IIRC).

    Just looked it up on amazon.com, it's by John Cramer: http://www.amazon.com/Twister-John-Cramer/dp/04505 51172/ref=sr_1_11/103-3660020-3447003?ie=UTF8&s=bo oks&qid=1176908792&sr=1-11

    --
    Curiosity was framed, Ignorance killed the cat.
  77. Put up or shut up by davidwr · · Score: 1

    Einstein was a fraud in every sense of the word, and his supposed theory of general relativity (which he stole) has been proven wrong, time and time again. Put up or shut up and don't be an Anonymous Coward.

    The question everyone should be asking themselves is: why is general relativity still being taught if it's 100% false? Newton's theories were taught for hundreds of years before they were confirmed to be wrong. Yet they are still taught. Why? Because they are useful. Unless you get very tiny or very fast, Newton's theories' predictions are "good enough." My hunch is someday there will be a better theory than Einstein's, but Einstein's theories will still be used when they are "good enough."

    The answer is simple: the powers that be do NOT want the masses to understand the true nature of the universe because if we did understand it, limitation and impossibility wouldn't exist. This sounds like a philosophical reason not a scientific one. Try again.

    It's funny how the Theory of General Relativity came out at the same time as Nikola Tesla's Dynamic Theory of Gravity If you can show even one situation Telsa's theories are better at predicting outcomes than Einsteins, then Telsa's theories have some utility. If you can further show that Einstein's theories break down more often then Telsa's, then you can argue that Telsa's theories are actually better.

    Personally, I don't think anyone's theories on the nature of the Universe are "complete and correct." At least not yet.

    Tesla was, and is, the only true genius that ever walked the face of this earth, and it's such a shame that history has totally forgotten the man who could have saved us all. Saying "he's the greatest" is not the best way to claim the correctness of a man's scientific achievements. For what it's worth, Nikola Tesla is far from forgotten, with over a million hits on Google.
    --
    Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
  78. Only 6 dimensions? by LifesABeach · · Score: 1

    I remember a PBS show about showing how Magnetism an Electricity have the same properties, given a 11+ dimensional universe; The mathematicians involved choked on demonstrating how the same approach could be applied to Gravity. It looks like as "Time" proceeds, Mathematics is collecting more tools to refine our understanding of the universe.

  79. Just look at my nick... by SixDimensionalArray · · Score: 1

    Just look at my nickname - I've thought there were 6 all along!

    *ducks from rotten tomatoes*

    -6d

  80. Mod parent by Trikenstein · · Score: 1

    massless

  81. Someone tell Virginia Heinlein by RomulusNR · · Score: 1

    Cause someone ripped off her husband's Number of the Beast .

    --
    Terrorists can attack freedom, but only Congress can destroy it.
  82. Three time dimensions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Now there are three ways we can have dupes.
    --
    Fuck the weasels! I use all my mod points to cancel out 'underrated' with 'overrated' and vice-versa.

  83. experiments can never prove a scientific theory by j18ter · · Score: 1

    Sparling is hoping that tests from the Large Hadron Collider will help prove his theory.
    When will people stop writing nonsense like this? An experiment can never prove a theory! When two or more alternative theories make incompatible predictions of observable phenomena, then experimental results may be found to agree more with one than with the other theory's predictions. But the experiment by itself never conclusively proves anything, it is merely a piece of a larger puzzle in the quest for a theory that works better than its competitors.

    To be sure, George Sparling himself apparently didn't claim anything of the sort, Slashdot was just putting words in his mouth, as usual.

  84. Zeta is the 6th letter of the Greek alphabet by benhocking · · Score: 1

    Delta is the 4th letter in the Greek alphabet, much like the letter D is the 4th letter of our alphabet.

    --
    Ben Hocking
    Need a professional organizer?
    1. Re:Zeta is the 6th letter of the Greek alphabet by chill · · Score: 1

      Thanks, but we're both wrong. Me, moreso than you. :-)

      In Ancient Greek, Digamma is the sixth letter/number. It, along with Koppa and San (after Omega), are obsolete and no longer used in Greek.

      http://www-groups.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~history/HistTo pics/Greek_numbers.html

      --
      Learning HOW to think is more important than learning WHAT to think.
  85. The law of fives strikes again. by Ungrounded+Lightning · · Score: 1

    Wha?! Numerology?! 6 is twice (2) as much as three (3) ...

    23!?!?!


    And now you find yet another fnord application of the law of fives.

    --
    Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
  86. Got it wrong; two space dimensions, and by Jasper__unique_dammi · · Score: 1

    Four time
    o
    u
    r

    t
    i
    m
    e

  87. Oblig Oblig by drachenstern · · Score: 1

    And all I need to do is attach actuators to a gyroscope and start pushing it around.

    Or how about two smallish black holes contained within strong magnets. I guess those could be considered quite sophisticated gyros, eh?
     
    /titor_reference (oh, I feel the karma burn already!!!)

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    2^3 * 31 * 647
  88. Hmmm. by jd · · Score: 1

    Seem to remember too many years ago, a young children's book - Hope for the Flowers - that described exactly such a mental state.

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    It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
  89. Plenty of time... by onemorechip · · Score: 1

    I'll read TFA tomorrow-up. Or maybe tomorrow-right or tomorrow-out. With three time dimensions I'm sure I'll get around to it in at least one of them. But this is really going to play havoc with verb tenses.

    --
    But, I wanted socialized health insurance!
  90. So... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Can we start calling the spatial dimensions space, tpace and utace? :-)

  91. Dust Mote Theory Explained by fygment · · Score: 1

    Dimensions 5 and 6 are Time Velocity and Time Acceleration respectively. Thus explaining what happens when time seems to pass faster when you zone out staring at dust motes floating in a sunbeam ie. time slows abruptly. By the same token, it also explains how time accelerates towards the end of an exam.

    --
    "Consensus" in science is _always_ a political construct.
  92. Re:Why 3 dimensions of space? Peano curve by The_Wilschon · · Score: 1

    You are correct. I was not. Somebody give this guy some mod points.

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    SIGSEGV caught, terminating

    wait... not that kind of sig.
  93. At least that explains your tri-Delt bashing... by benhocking · · Score: 1

    I was wondering if maybe you had recently been dumped by a tri-Delt recently and decided to label them as the beast in revenge! ;)

    --
    Ben Hocking
    Need a professional organizer?
  94. the half-spin fermions behave like a mobius strip? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Quoting from the article:

    "The key difference between spinors and non-spinors is their behavior under rotations: typically, non-spinorial (integer-spin) particles return to their initial value under a 360-degree (or 2-radian) rotation; however, the spinorial (half-integer-spin) fermions actually change sign under a 360-degree rotation, requiring a full 720-degree rotation to get back to their initial values. This is completely foreign to our naive idea of how rotations work, and yet it is a basic part of reality.

    "Consider this analogy: if you take a plate and hold it in one hand horizontally whilst twisting it under your arm backwards through 360 degrees, your arm ends up in the air after one rotation, and it needs another 360 degree rotation to get it back to the beginning," he said.

    ---

    This leaves me thinking that the half-spin fermions are actually rotated using a 'mobius-strip' model.

    comments?

  95. Bees communicate information in 6 dimensions by Slur · · Score: 1

    I read a blurb in a science mag awhile ago. A mathematician turned entomologist was studying bees, and in their dance motions found patterns similar to six-dimensional mathematics which she had done a thesis on or something. She surmised that the bees' dances could be understood as conveying 6 dimensional data.

    Interesting...

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    -- thinkyhead software and media