"You're implying that car insurance is analogous to health insurance. Where I live, there's mandatory car insurance and mandatory health insurance. So that looks like a decent analogy in favor of that part of this bill. And it's almost a car analogy, too.:)"
Ah, but the difference there is that this is mandated on a state level. They do have the authority to mandate such coverge,the Feds on the other hand...have NO power granted to them by the Constitution to mandate what an individual citizen purchases. That's where this is gonna get knocked off, in court.
It should be on a state level, where most power is supposed to reside. Not all states mandate car insurance,nor health insurance. That's the nice thing about states rights...if you don't like the rules (and expenses) in one state, you are free to move to one that is more in line with you type of thinking.
"Yes, and a system of governance which is based upon "general welfare" (you know, the one from U.S. Constitution [wikipedia.org]) is social democracy "
Trouble is, the welfare spoken of by the framers of the Constitution is not the welfare type of system YOU are speaking about. It is more about the ability of the feds to tax for the management of the resources and defense for the country as an entity, not handing out entitlements to invidual citizens. And if this is wanted, it is supposed to be a responsibility of the states, not the federal govt. Remember the 10th amendment?
"Really? Do you worry more about whether the profit margins of some corporations are huge or even huger, rather than about the economic well-being and health of individuals (who surely did not ask for nor deserve having a permanent health condition)? Of course, big, wealthy[-er] corporations are what makes a country great. Sure."
From what I've read lately, insurance companies are making about 2%-3% profit in recent years. That doesn't strike me a an outrageous percentage of profit?!?!
And for those individuals you mention, it is sad and it sucks to be them, but why should "I" be forced to take care of them? I like to help and take care of my family and friends, why should they not depend on the same?
If Joe Sixpack over there spent his life eating crap and McDonald's, smoking 3 packs a day and washing it all down with a quart of vodka...why the hell should I be expected to pay for his dumb asses medical tx.
"Not if you require everyone - healthy or otherwise - to carry insurance. By creating a giant pool of healthy and unhealthy people, it increases the total revenue of the insurers tremendously, more than enough to offset the potential losses related to covering people with preexisting conditions. "
Trouble is...the Federal Govt doesn't have the constitutional power to force all the citizens to by insurance. There are state atty's and loads of other lined up and ready to challenge this all the way to SCOTUS.
I mean, hell, it took a constitutional amendment to allow the Feds to tax income...surely it requires one to require one to purchase something, no?
"I actually support requiring coverage for pre-existing conditions, when combined with a significant fine for anybody that doesn't buy minimal insurance coverage (with socialized plans available for the poor). By forcing universal coverage you eliminate the issue of pre-existing conditions entirely. Also, universal coverage means that people don't have a financial incentive to neglect preventative care."
Trouble is...the Federal Government does NOT have the power to mandate that every individual buy minimal insurance. Right now, there are states atty' among a host of lawyers ready and waiting in the wings the second this is passed, to challenge this. SCOTUS will very likely strike down this provision. Hell, this actually may prove to be a major challenge of the strength of the 10th amendment which has been trampled over for decades. States? Sure, they can force you to buy, but the Feds really don't have that power enumerated to them by the Constitution, I think it would take a constitutional amendment for them to be able to do this..hell, remember...it took one for the Feds to be able to tax your income?
Well, I usually try to balance things out, and watch a bit of MSNBC for awhile.
Watch Keith Olbermann spew a bit of vitriol and some insane rants for awhile, and that alone will balance out a bit of the worst that Fox news throws out at times. But honestly, as bad as Fox can get at times...MSNBC can get as bad or even sometimes a bit worse hitting from the other end of the political spectrum.
"No, it sounds like higher taxes. Socialized Medicine would happen if the government was running the healthcare industry, which it isn't. The government runs a few healthcare PROGRAMS, but it is no where even close to running the whole INDUSTRY."
Well, this is only a first step in the direction of socialized medicine. They wanted a stronger step, with the "Public Option", but that wouldn't fly, so they backed off a bit.
Look into some of the people behind the scenes of those in power, those that influenced them and even older quotes from those in the administration. They have been put on record saying they want to move to single payer and socialized medicine..but they know it has to come a little at a time.
"sales across sate lines is a ploy to tunr the health insurence industry into what the credit card industry has become."
I don't believe that.
I mean..what is the difference with Geico selling me motorcycle/car insurance across state lines vs them selling me health insurance across state lines??
"Say you live in Maryland, and want to buy Insurance A from New Jersey. Say Maryland has a law stating insurance companies have to cover a specific condition, but they DON'T have that law in New Jersey. You will have bought insurance that isn't guaranteed to cover you the way it should because the laws are different in the two states...this is why companies have different "arms" in every state, because every state has vastly different laws. This is a very simplistic example, but they only get worse from there.
The only way interstate shopping of insurance would happen would be for the federal government to require all states to have the same insurance requirements...and we surely don't want the federal government trampling on states rights, now do we?"
You know...I've always been pissed at how the Feds have bastardized and used the interstate commerce powers they have. However, this is probably the ONE application of them that I think is actually in the spirit of said enumerated power they do have.
Yes, I think the feds could trump the states regulations if they indeed hamper the sales of health insurance across state lines. It would actually apply in this RARE case.
" Why can't they do a simple bill, with some main points everyone can agree on...in about 10 pages of simple language everyone can understand and agree on?
That's basically what this bill was. It's so full of compromises to get Republican support that it's watered down to the point of being almost useless, and now that the Democrats have bent to their demands, the Republicans see blood in the water and are continuing to attack it and are acting like they didn't support this exact design before. The Republicans can't be trusted, and the Democrats can only be trusted to cave in to the Republicans at every turn. Every single one of them is a disgrace to his/her office. No one is more deserving of having to beg for change on the streets...."
Err...that Democratic bill has been roughly 2K+ pages long way back last year when they started the thing, which was way before they started "adding things the Republicans" wanted....
You listed this as a problem not being addressed "the for-profit nature of the health care providers themselves"
I don't understand this one..should a doctor, after years of training (and debt for that schooling) not be able to hang their shingle out and make a good bit of money on a very highly prized work skills? What about nurses and etc...I don't get why you don't want health providers to make a profit. Why else would anyone go into that profession? I like my fellow man as much as anyone, but hey I wanna make a good living while I'm on this earth!!
Re:A false choice, of course...
on
Health Care Reform
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· Score: 3, Insightful
"Why are the self employed all but excluded from healthcare altogether?"
Where do you get this?
I'm on a W2 gig right now, but previously working through my own S corp, I was VERY happy with my deal.
I set up a high deductible BCBS account, for catastrophic problems...and was then qualified to set up a HSA (Health Savings Account) where I could load it up (up to about $3K last year I believe) pre-tax. I used THAT money for my routine medical care. It isn't use it or lose it either like the FSA's they offer at W2 jobs. Why shouldn't everyone save for routine medical care just like you save aside money for house payments, retirement, etc...? I remember when Health Insurance used to be called "Hospitalization"....which was only there for catastrophic emergencies, not for every time Sally got the sniffles.
Using insurance the wrong way, along with HMOs and all the bean counters has a LOT to do with rising health care costs...I know this because when I was paying my own way, and went to DR's or even for some medical tests (MRI, lab..etc) as soon as I told them I was paying on my own, I got at least 15% knocked right off the top of their billing rate.
Why is that I wonder?
One Major trouble with the health care bill they're trying to pass is...that it actually goes in and cut amounts people can load up HSA's and FSA's...this part of it sucks.
Re:A false choice, of course...
on
Health Care Reform
·
· Score: 4, Insightful
"You're right... we do. However we're ranked very low among the rich countries in health care quality, but we take the gold in medical bankruptcy... go USA!"
Trouble is...I don't think this mammoth of a bill is going to fix that.
I'm quite worried that they are going to be adding a TON of new people to the medicare roles...a program which is already WAY in the hole. I believe Medicare is already, as is, slated to be many trillions of unfunded entitlement in the next 15 or so years. How are we going to help it by adding millions of new people? Where will the money come from?
Why can't they do a simple bill, with some main points everyone can agree on...in about 10 pages of simple language everyone can understand and agree on? Start from there and build on it?
From what I can see...this new thing is an attempt to build a model similar to what Mass. put into place, and from what I understand it is a HUGE financial burden on the state, and not quite working out as it was intended. Anyone from Mass that can comment on this?
I'm also concerned about what will happen to what is left of this bill after the SCOTUS challenges to it with regard to the Federal Govt. mandating that individual citizens be required to buy health insurance. I really do believe this will be struck down. Already there are laws and the like passed in many states actually banning the state from participating in this program, and I understand some are working on state constitutional amendments to battle what the feds are trying to do. This may turn into a large fight over the 10th amendment...which may not be a bad thing considering it has been largely ignored for years.
But say the individual insurance mandate is struck down...but the rest of the law exists? What will fund it?
This bill is serious, and the implications are large...I think much more study is required, however, at this point, it is ONLY about politics IMHO...citizens' be damned as long as one side of the other can claim victory.
Re:A false choice, of course...
on
Health Care Reform
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· Score: 4, Insightful
"If we're not going to go off of what the CBO say's what are we going to go off of??? They don't lean right or left and they said it would reduce the deficit, period."
I think the CBO is a great place to start from...but again, this is a preliminary report they just came out with. I'd rather the congress not rush to try to pass this, till thorough study has been made!! What is the rush? I mean, if this is going to affect roughly 1/6th of our economy, let's study and get it right.
I'm concerned about the money shuffling congress has done to try to get this to look like it will save money and reduce deficit, I'm seriously concerned they are in some ways counting money twice. I'm also worried about them with regard to the bills to 'fix' the scheduled decrease in Dr's reimbursements for Medicare...they will likely raise those fees back in a separate bill, but really it should be figured into the cost of this one.
I like a lot of things that are in the bill, but honestly...would it not be easier to get rid for 2000 pages of a bill with God knows what all else is hidden in there...and go with a more basic one that has things most everyone can agree on?
Insurance sales across state lines (surely a real interstate commerce item)
No pre-existing conditions
Allow small business and even individuals to band together to get group insurance rates
Allow Medicare to bargain for cheaper drugs with the pharma companies like the VA does
These would all be popular starters, and I doubt we'd need a Lousiana Purchase or Nebraska deal to pass this through...?
Re:A false choice, of course...
on
Health Care Reform
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· Score: 1, Flamebait
"Instead of just repeating a talking point, explain in detail how this bill will "socialize" medicine."
Well, for one thing, it will create a new entitlement program, funded by increased taxes on people like myself that work. My tax dollars are now going to be raised so the government can subsidize other peoples' healthcare.
You know, I see lots of people on this topic saying teen shouldn't be having sex.
Can NONE of you remember what it was like as a teen and sex?
Hell, I'd say to young people...sure, be responsible, protect yourself, but get out there and FUCK!! These are you best fuck years, particularly males!!
Lordy, when you're that age, you can fuck, blow a wad...and keep it hard and start right back up again. Take advantage of stamina and libido while you have it.
"sex is immensely pleasurable. its also an emotional minefield. there is no such thing, nor will there ever be, a successful human society with a cavalier attitude towards sex. sex is extremely powerful. as such, it is treated, and should be treated, extremely carefully, and always will be"
I hear this type thing from time to time...and I just don't get it.
What is such an emotional minefield about sex?? Hell, 9 times out of ten, it is JUST a physical act of pleasure, no emotion or anything involved..???
Sex is no more powerful in your life than anything else...unless you let it be for some reason. It is just a bodily function, that is a hell of a lot of fun. Hell, I'd say SLEEP was a more powerful bodily function that sex...I mean, you can live without sex (not fun granted, but possible), yet you cannot live without sleep.
Why do you and others make claims that sex is this super magical thing, that bows you to its "power"? It is just sex.
"I knew I wasn't stupid enough bareback because my parents didn't interfere with my sex life, aside from stressing the important of a condom. Had they forbidden it (in the process neglecting to discuss condoms), I would've done it ungloved."
Whew...man, thank God I was a teen back before there were STD's that would kill you.
I always had girlfriends that were on the pill or other form of birth control, and no need for condoms. I never caught anything, and the rare people I knew that did, well, back then worse thing that would happen was you got a shot to clear up the clap.
I can't stand condoms to this day....kinda like eating a juicy steak with one on your tongue, sure, you know something good is going on there, but there is just no sensation of what it is...
Actually, if they could put a 'heads up' targeting display on the windshield, to help aim some surface to surface missles, or at least a.50 cal machine gun....just to help clear out slow assholes ahead of you, I'd be for it!!!
"Thing is though, if there are three lanes moving at 20 mph then that's as fast as you can go, regardless of what you are driving."
I seldom if ever run into that type situation, only happens on rush hour times....and I mostly stick to city streets and avoid the highway if I can, it is usually never crowded with traffic...
"And the biggest sign things have changed? MTV stopped playing videos. That model survived until the 2000s and then died, because it was killed-off by the instant access of Youtube. Another channel called "TheTube" tried to revive music television, but it went bankrupt in 2006."
From what I could tell...MTV stopped playing music videos MUCH early than that...about the time the Real World first appeared, they pretty much stopped, and that was maybe the early 90's? VH1 stopped playing music videos shortly after that.
About the only thing I've see that did play music videos (and it is getting less and less) is VH1 Classic.
"Even people who don't want to pay for music prefer to pirate as opposed to download free indie material. "
Perhaps this also speaks to the quality/style that the indie musicians are putting out there?
I mean, most of the classic rock popular bands were 'indie' at one time...yet they caught on. The Stones, Beatles, Zeppelin..they weren't exactly groomed by the big bad music industry, they came up with most of their music and style on their own.
Why don't most people just upgrade to a business connection?
I have one from Cox cable in the US. I pay only $69/mo....I have a static IP, I can run servers, I have no caps, I get in the ballpark of 10 meg down, and about 7 meg up, I have a low level SLA (which they do respond to quickly)...and I hear that you can even tap into one of these lines to get free analog tv and even scan for unencrypted HD channels, but that's only an unproven rumor I've heard.
:)
But seriously...from what I hear of what most people pay for caps and crappy service, a couple more dollars a month and you can get truly unlimited internet connectivity. And, if you actually have a business, you can write it all off on your taxes which is a big plus!!
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Ah, but the difference there is that this is mandated on a state level. They do have the authority to mandate such coverge,the Feds on the other hand...have NO power granted to them by the Constitution to mandate what an individual citizen purchases. That's where this is gonna get knocked off, in court.
It should be on a state level, where most power is supposed to reside. Not all states mandate car insurance,nor health insurance. That's the nice thing about states rights...if you don't like the rules (and expenses) in one state, you are free to move to one that is more in line with you type of thinking.
Trouble is, the welfare spoken of by the framers of the Constitution is not the welfare type of system YOU are speaking about. It is more about the ability of the feds to tax for the management of the resources and defense for the country as an entity, not handing out entitlements to invidual citizens. And if this is wanted, it is supposed to be a responsibility of the states, not the federal govt. Remember the 10th amendment?
From what I've read lately, insurance companies are making about 2%-3% profit in recent years. That doesn't strike me a an outrageous percentage of profit?!?!
And for those individuals you mention, it is sad and it sucks to be them, but why should "I" be forced to take care of them? I like to help and take care of my family and friends, why should they not depend on the same?
If Joe Sixpack over there spent his life eating crap and McDonald's, smoking 3 packs a day and washing it all down with a quart of vodka...why the hell should I be expected to pay for his dumb asses medical tx.
Trouble is...the Federal Govt doesn't have the constitutional power to force all the citizens to by insurance. There are state atty's and loads of other lined up and ready to challenge this all the way to SCOTUS.
I mean, hell, it took a constitutional amendment to allow the Feds to tax income...surely it requires one to require one to purchase something, no?
So, you're saying it is ok for the government to force me to be my brother's keeper against my will? I should HAVE to support others' health concerns?
Trouble is...the Federal Government does NOT have the power to mandate that every individual buy minimal insurance. Right now, there are states atty' among a host of lawyers ready and waiting in the wings the second this is passed, to challenge this. SCOTUS will very likely strike down this provision. Hell, this actually may prove to be a major challenge of the strength of the 10th amendment which has been trampled over for decades. States? Sure, they can force you to buy, but the Feds really don't have that power enumerated to them by the Constitution, I think it would take a constitutional amendment for them to be able to do this..hell, remember...it took one for the Feds to be able to tax your income?
Watch Keith Olbermann spew a bit of vitriol and some insane rants for awhile, and that alone will balance out a bit of the worst that Fox news throws out at times. But honestly, as bad as Fox can get at times...MSNBC can get as bad or even sometimes a bit worse hitting from the other end of the political spectrum.
Well, this is only a first step in the direction of socialized medicine. They wanted a stronger step, with the "Public Option", but that wouldn't fly, so they backed off a bit.
Look into some of the people behind the scenes of those in power, those that influenced them and even older quotes from those in the administration. They have been put on record saying they want to move to single payer and socialized medicine..but they know it has to come a little at a time.
I don't believe that.
I mean..what is the difference with Geico selling me motorcycle/car insurance across state lines vs them selling me health insurance across state lines??
The only way interstate shopping of insurance would happen would be for the federal government to require all states to have the same insurance requirements...and we surely don't want the federal government trampling on states rights, now do we?"
You know...I've always been pissed at how the Feds have bastardized and used the interstate commerce powers they have. However, this is probably the ONE application of them that I think is actually in the spirit of said enumerated power they do have.
Yes, I think the feds could trump the states regulations if they indeed hamper the sales of health insurance across state lines. It would actually apply in this RARE case.
That's basically what this bill was. It's so full of compromises to get Republican support that it's watered down to the point of being almost useless, and now that the Democrats have bent to their demands, the Republicans see blood in the water and are continuing to attack it and are acting like they didn't support this exact design before. The Republicans can't be trusted, and the Democrats can only be trusted to cave in to the Republicans at every turn. Every single one of them is a disgrace to his/her office. No one is more deserving of having to beg for change on the streets...."
Err...that Democratic bill has been roughly 2K+ pages long way back last year when they started the thing, which was way before they started "adding things the Republicans" wanted....
You listed this as a problem not being addressed "the for-profit nature of the health care providers themselves"
I don't understand this one..should a doctor, after years of training (and debt for that schooling) not be able to hang their shingle out and make a good bit of money on a very highly prized work skills? What about nurses and etc...I don't get why you don't want health providers to make a profit. Why else would anyone go into that profession? I like my fellow man as much as anyone, but hey I wanna make a good living while I'm on this earth!!
Where do you get this?
I'm on a W2 gig right now, but previously working through my own S corp, I was VERY happy with my deal.
I set up a high deductible BCBS account, for catastrophic problems...and was then qualified to set up a HSA (Health Savings Account) where I could load it up (up to about $3K last year I believe) pre-tax. I used THAT money for my routine medical care. It isn't use it or lose it either like the FSA's they offer at W2 jobs. Why shouldn't everyone save for routine medical care just like you save aside money for house payments, retirement, etc...? I remember when Health Insurance used to be called "Hospitalization"....which was only there for catastrophic emergencies, not for every time Sally got the sniffles.
Using insurance the wrong way, along with HMOs and all the bean counters has a LOT to do with rising health care costs...I know this because when I was paying my own way, and went to DR's or even for some medical tests (MRI, lab..etc) as soon as I told them I was paying on my own, I got at least 15% knocked right off the top of their billing rate.
Why is that I wonder?
One Major trouble with the health care bill they're trying to pass is...that it actually goes in and cut amounts people can load up HSA's and FSA's...this part of it sucks.
Trouble is...I don't think this mammoth of a bill is going to fix that.
I'm quite worried that they are going to be adding a TON of new people to the medicare roles...a program which is already WAY in the hole. I believe Medicare is already, as is, slated to be many trillions of unfunded entitlement in the next 15 or so years. How are we going to help it by adding millions of new people? Where will the money come from?
Why can't they do a simple bill, with some main points everyone can agree on...in about 10 pages of simple language everyone can understand and agree on? Start from there and build on it?
From what I can see...this new thing is an attempt to build a model similar to what Mass. put into place, and from what I understand it is a HUGE financial burden on the state, and not quite working out as it was intended. Anyone from Mass that can comment on this?
I'm also concerned about what will happen to what is left of this bill after the SCOTUS challenges to it with regard to the Federal Govt. mandating that individual citizens be required to buy health insurance. I really do believe this will be struck down. Already there are laws and the like passed in many states actually banning the state from participating in this program, and I understand some are working on state constitutional amendments to battle what the feds are trying to do. This may turn into a large fight over the 10th amendment...which may not be a bad thing considering it has been largely ignored for years.
But say the individual insurance mandate is struck down...but the rest of the law exists? What will fund it?
This bill is serious, and the implications are large...I think much more study is required, however, at this point, it is ONLY about politics IMHO...citizens' be damned as long as one side of the other can claim victory.
I think the CBO is a great place to start from...but again, this is a preliminary report they just came out with. I'd rather the congress not rush to try to pass this, till thorough study has been made!! What is the rush? I mean, if this is going to affect roughly 1/6th of our economy, let's study and get it right.
I'm concerned about the money shuffling congress has done to try to get this to look like it will save money and reduce deficit, I'm seriously concerned they are in some ways counting money twice. I'm also worried about them with regard to the bills to 'fix' the scheduled decrease in Dr's reimbursements for Medicare...they will likely raise those fees back in a separate bill, but really it should be figured into the cost of this one.
I like a lot of things that are in the bill, but honestly...would it not be easier to get rid for 2000 pages of a bill with God knows what all else is hidden in there...and go with a more basic one that has things most everyone can agree on?
These would all be popular starters, and I doubt we'd need a Lousiana Purchase or Nebraska deal to pass this through...?
Well, for one thing, it will create a new entitlement program, funded by increased taxes on people like myself that work. My tax dollars are now going to be raised so the government can subsidize other peoples' healthcare.
Sounds a bit like socialized medicine to me, no?
Can NONE of you remember what it was like as a teen and sex?
Hell, I'd say to young people...sure, be responsible, protect yourself, but get out there and FUCK!! These are you best fuck years, particularly males!!
Lordy, when you're that age, you can fuck, blow a wad...and keep it hard and start right back up again. Take advantage of stamina and libido while you have it.
It won't last forever...
I hear this type thing from time to time...and I just don't get it.
What is such an emotional minefield about sex?? Hell, 9 times out of ten, it is JUST a physical act of pleasure, no emotion or anything involved..???
Sex is no more powerful in your life than anything else...unless you let it be for some reason. It is just a bodily function, that is a hell of a lot of fun. Hell, I'd say SLEEP was a more powerful bodily function that sex...I mean, you can live without sex (not fun granted, but possible), yet you cannot live without sleep.
Why do you and others make claims that sex is this super magical thing, that bows you to its "power"? It is just sex.
Whew...man, thank God I was a teen back before there were STD's that would kill you.
I always had girlfriends that were on the pill or other form of birth control, and no need for condoms. I never caught anything, and the rare people I knew that did, well, back then worse thing that would happen was you got a shot to clear up the clap.
I can't stand condoms to this day....kinda like eating a juicy steak with one on your tongue, sure, you know something good is going on there, but there is just no sensation of what it is...
Yeah, but when you're a teen guy...tang and vodka HELP you get more 'tang'.
I seldom if ever run into that type situation, only happens on rush hour times....and I mostly stick to city streets and avoid the highway if I can, it is usually never crowded with traffic...
I've pretty much had the same deal from Cox since about 2003 or so...
From what I could tell...MTV stopped playing music videos MUCH early than that...about the time the Real World first appeared, they pretty much stopped, and that was maybe the early 90's? VH1 stopped playing music videos shortly after that.
About the only thing I've see that did play music videos (and it is getting less and less) is VH1 Classic.
Perhaps this also speaks to the quality/style that the indie musicians are putting out there?
I mean, most of the classic rock popular bands were 'indie' at one time...yet they caught on. The Stones, Beatles, Zeppelin..they weren't exactly groomed by the big bad music industry, they came up with most of their music and style on their own.
I have one from Cox cable in the US. I pay only $69/mo....I have a static IP, I can run servers, I have no caps, I get in the ballpark of 10 meg down, and about 7 meg up, I have a low level SLA (which they do respond to quickly)...and I hear that you can even tap into one of these lines to get free analog tv and even scan for unencrypted HD channels, but that's only an unproven rumor I've heard.
But seriously...from what I hear of what most people pay for caps and crappy service, a couple more dollars a month and you can get truly unlimited internet connectivity. And, if you actually have a business, you can write it all off on your taxes which is a big plus!!