Sweden isn't a member of NATO and hasn't agreed to its treaties.
Sweden has opposed pretty much every act of aggression NATO has been involved in and offered asylum to the refuges. During Vietnam Sweden offered asylum to US soldiers fleeing the draft AND to Vietnamese guerrillas.
As an American let me be the firs to say ROFLOLOLOLOLOLOL. Lets get more realistic. If a party political candidate is likely to be arrested when showing up for the televised presidential debate we can safely strike them off the list.
There. Now, lets give him the remaining list to categorize; Republican and Democrat.
Irrelevant? The pedant in me insists on correcting you. The point you raise is insignificant, unimportant, a complete and utter waste or neurons perhaps but it is relevant to the thread.
"It's not so easy to define 'natural' as it seems."
Natural is pretty easy to define. Natural is anything that is not the result of human action (nothing about a human is 'natural' unless it is inborn). Chimp (and other non-human) use of tools is natural. Human activity is unnatural even if we are doing it naked and with our bare hands.
The reason humans first tools were to carve up critters is that we evolved to eat both plants and animals. Meat eating is inborn in humans and therefore is natural. Vegetarianism is not inborn and therefore is unnatural.
My complaint wasn't/isn't with vegetarianism or vegans, only with the false claim that early man was vegetarian and that vegetarian is the natural and healthy diet of the man animal. A healthy and balanced diet is fairly effortless when it includes meat since meat is a complete protein. A healthy vegetarian diet is possible but requires planning, wide access to diverse foods, and fair amount of research. It is safe to say that early humans had none of the above. Suggesting anything else IS propaganda.
That said I'm not vegan. I understand the thinking that leads down that road. I just can't bring myself to draw a line regarding what lifeforms are fair game and what are not. The life of a cow is no more sacred to me than that of an apple or the bacteria killed by using a sanitizing wipe on a shopping cart handle. For that matter my only objection to cannibalism is that I believe it would facilitate the spread of disease.
"The reason for clean-rooming software has to do with legally keeping away from having the implementer "accidentally" including some bits of the original software algorithms into source code of whatever it is that you are working on. This doesn't necessarily involve even looking at the original source code but can involve decompiled or even dis-assembled software too."
I know the reason for a clean room implementation. THEY DIDN'T HAVE THE SERVER TO DECOMPILE OR DISASSEMBLE OR REVIEW IN ANY FASHION.
It would literally be impossible for them to accidentally implement any such algorithms.
This non-sensible and it is being spread around like wildfire among a community who should know better. It is impossible to accidentally incorporate Apache web server IP by disassembling Firefox. The client and the server are separate and distinct pieces, you can't infringe on one if you've only seen the other.
"The reason that copyright licenses exist is that the very act of running a piece of software requires making a copy"
That was a bullshit argument when Blizzard made it the first time. No license is required to use a piece of legally acquired software.
Additionally, copyright law explicitly allows making a copy of any legally acquired work.
The creators of the server emulator don't need to break the EULA. Only the guy playing the game needs to agree to the EULA, the guy sniffing his packets and debugging his client but not playing his game has no need to agree to the EULA.
"aiding and abetting copyright infringement"
They performed a perfectly legal reverse engineering of the server functionality. They of all people have every reason to believe the same could be done with the client using original artwork. They aren't doing anything that requires a client to violate copyright, that is on the client.
Wrong, the account with one month of play is free. The client and its accompanying key code requires a purchase.
But even if it didn't, if Blizzard is giving away clients for free that is their problem, the server emulator operator certainly isn't responsible for that.
I still don't understand what people think they need to 'clean room'.
The only code that could be reversed is the client and they didn't implement a client. They implemented a server and Blizzard has never released the server. No binary, no object code, nothing to clean-room.
The only thing they could review is the client (which can be reversed for interoperability without a clean room as long as they are coding the counterpart and not its own functionality) and the network communication which is fair game.
"but the burden of proof to prove it was done with no prior knowledge of the algorithm"
I tend to disagree since the only one with either binary or source for anything they implemented is Blizzard. Blizzard has never released their server application in binary or source form so there is no possibility of an emulator having been inspired by it.
The only code they can review is the client, they don't need a clean room for this since they aren't implementing a client and thus fall afoul of its copyright by doing so. Aside from that they can only review the network traffic which is effectively nothing more than a specification.
In the case of a civil suit you haven't broken a 'civil law' if you break the law that is criminal, if you break a contract that is civil.
The closest thing to 'civil laws' I know of are the way certain traffic citations are enforced by states. For example, toll violations. The argument is that you owe the state. Essentially the state legislature passes a law saying you'll be punished if you do X, but they code into the law that it is a civil offense.
States do this so they can try to avoid the expense of actual due process and proving these offenses. This is of questionable constitutionality, if the state mandates behavior and punishes your for violating that behavior then it is a criminal matter and you are entitled to a criminal burden of proof, miranda rights, etc. Generally, you can demand your case be tried in criminal rather than civil traffic court. They usually advise you of this right in fine print and coupled with a threat of potential consequences if you go this route.
IANAL, this is just my experience from fighting, and beating, a legislated 'civil' toll violation citation issue as a result of camera snapshot. In civil court my only option would have been to plea bargin, in criminal court it was tossed out since it was a long way from meeting the burden of proof.
AFAIK a clean room design with a spec is only needed if you are reversing the actual source code or binary.
If you reverse from the network protocol alone you couldn't be inspired by the source.
Since Blizzard is the only entity known to have the server binaries or source it would be impossible for anyone else to be inspired by the original code. The network protocol really is no more than a specification itself.
There is nothing about fair use that negates the possibility of making a profit. The only thing making a profit does is provide an easy metric for assessing damages if a judge decides what you did wasn't fair use.
"Also fair use does not stipulate you can use 100% of the source."
Your point? My comment didn't at any point include using any of the source and these server emulators don't use any of the original source either. They don't even use reversed source.
Monster stats aren't even vaguely within the realm of qualifying for a copyright.
The actual AI code used to implement the behavior would qualify but the behavior of the monsters isn't new, creative, or unique certainly on the level required for a copyright.
You could probably copyright the whole as a compilation like a reference book but they wouldn't be infringing on that here. They reverse engineered the stats and behavior of the creatures, there isn't even any guarantee they got it right.
The map is in the client, the server just stores coordinates. Again, a set of coords that overlays the map wouldn't be unique or creative enough to qualify for copyright protection (unlike the map itself). Everything else, all the artwork (including the map) the cities, the monsters, etc are all included in the client, lawfully purchased by the end user.
There doesn't need to be a disincentive. That only applies to criminal actions.
Its no different than if you sue a previous landlord for your deposit back on an apartment. The most you can get is the cost of the damages (the deposit) + the legal fees to recover it. It isn't like they fine the landlord extra for being wrong about owing you the deposit.
"There is zero question that this copyright violation:"
Only in your world. You do realize that reverse engineering for interoperability is actually a textbook case case of fair use? They can replicate anything they can sniff off the wire, including locs for the purpose of inter-operation with the client. This is no different than what is done with wine and samba.
To use a better analogy, this is like building your own theater from scratch (the server), buying a movie and watching it (their client used for reverse engineering), then re-enacting the movie as a play in their theater while requiring everyone to bring a voided ticket from an authorized distributor for said movie (the game client the end user is required to legally purchase before they can play on any server), and then selling popcorn at the performance (the micro-payments).
People mention the EULA forbids reverse engineering even if copyright allows it. That can be bypassed by installing sniffing software on another PC where your friend installs his game copy, agrees to the EULA, and plays it while you monitor the traffic from another PC or review the capture file after he is done. You haven't agreed to the EULA and he isn't reverse engineering. Problem solved and nobody broke the EULA or copyright.
WOW Emulation servers have built up databases of monster stats, xp tables, etc completely independant of the official game.
Except in cases where these were reverse engineered but reverse engineering for interoperability with the client is a cut and dry case of fair use and there are a number of very high profile examples of this in practice such as wine and the samba project.
"Here we have a case of someone infringing Blizzard's work"
Nobody infringed on Blizzard's work. They offered a completely independently developed alternative to Blizzards work. It still required a legal purchase of the game client.
Reverse engineering for interoperability is protected as fair use. In this case they didn't even do the reverse engineering simply installed the result of such an effort.
Slashdot Mirror
It's one thing if you block me from going to a website on your equipment, it is quite another to install a key logger.
There is a big difference, cameras record.
Sweden isn't a member of NATO and hasn't agreed to its treaties.
Sweden has opposed pretty much every act of aggression NATO has been involved in and offered asylum to the refuges. During Vietnam Sweden offered asylum to US soldiers fleeing the draft AND to Vietnamese guerrillas.
No kidding. This is yet another move that inspires me to move to Sweden. Sadly, they probably wouldn't have me.
As an American let me be the firs to say ROFLOLOLOLOLOLOL. Lets get more realistic. If a party political candidate is likely to be arrested when showing up for the televised presidential debate we can safely strike them off the list.
There. Now, lets give him the remaining list to categorize; Republican and Democrat.
Irrelevant? The pedant in me insists on correcting you. The point you raise is insignificant, unimportant, a complete and utter waste or neurons perhaps but it is relevant to the thread.
Yes. The Pirate Bay doesn't distribute torrent data either, its a search engine.
"It's not so easy to define 'natural' as it seems."
Natural is pretty easy to define. Natural is anything that is not the result of human action (nothing about a human is 'natural' unless it is inborn). Chimp (and other non-human) use of tools is natural. Human activity is unnatural even if we are doing it naked and with our bare hands.
The reason humans first tools were to carve up critters is that we evolved to eat both plants and animals. Meat eating is inborn in humans and therefore is natural. Vegetarianism is not inborn and therefore is unnatural.
My complaint wasn't/isn't with vegetarianism or vegans, only with the false claim that early man was vegetarian and that vegetarian is the natural and healthy diet of the man animal. A healthy and balanced diet is fairly effortless when it includes meat since meat is a complete protein. A healthy vegetarian diet is possible but requires planning, wide access to diverse foods, and fair amount of research. It is safe to say that early humans had none of the above. Suggesting anything else IS propaganda.
That said I'm not vegan. I understand the thinking that leads down that road. I just can't bring myself to draw a line regarding what lifeforms are fair game and what are not. The life of a cow is no more sacred to me than that of an apple or the bacteria killed by using a sanitizing wipe on a shopping cart handle. For that matter my only objection to cannibalism is that I believe it would facilitate the spread of disease.
"The reason for clean-rooming software has to do with legally keeping away from having the implementer "accidentally" including some bits of the original software algorithms into source code of whatever it is that you are working on. This doesn't necessarily involve even looking at the original source code but can involve decompiled or even dis-assembled software too."
I know the reason for a clean room implementation. THEY DIDN'T HAVE THE SERVER TO DECOMPILE OR DISASSEMBLE OR REVIEW IN ANY FASHION.
It would literally be impossible for them to accidentally implement any such algorithms.
This non-sensible and it is being spread around like wildfire among a community who should know better. It is impossible to accidentally incorporate Apache web server IP by disassembling Firefox. The client and the server are separate and distinct pieces, you can't infringe on one if you've only seen the other.
You realize your comment adds absolutely nothing to the conversation?
how is this a flame?
"The reason that copyright licenses exist is that the very act of running a piece of software requires making a copy"
That was a bullshit argument when Blizzard made it the first time. No license is required to use a piece of legally acquired software.
Additionally, copyright law explicitly allows making a copy of any legally acquired work.
The creators of the server emulator don't need to break the EULA. Only the guy playing the game needs to agree to the EULA, the guy sniffing his packets and debugging his client but not playing his game has no need to agree to the EULA.
"aiding and abetting copyright infringement"
They performed a perfectly legal reverse engineering of the server functionality. They of all people have every reason to believe the same could be done with the client using original artwork. They aren't doing anything that requires a client to violate copyright, that is on the client.
Wrong, the account with one month of play is free. The client and its accompanying key code requires a purchase.
But even if it didn't, if Blizzard is giving away clients for free that is their problem, the server emulator operator certainly isn't responsible for that.
I still don't understand what people think they need to 'clean room'.
The only code that could be reversed is the client and they didn't implement a client. They implemented a server and Blizzard has never released the server. No binary, no object code, nothing to clean-room.
The only thing they could review is the client (which can be reversed for interoperability without a clean room as long as they are coding the counterpart and not its own functionality) and the network communication which is fair game.
"but the burden of proof to prove it was done with no prior knowledge of the algorithm"
I tend to disagree since the only one with either binary or source for anything they implemented is Blizzard. Blizzard has never released their server application in binary or source form so there is no possibility of an emulator having been inspired by it.
The only code they can review is the client, they don't need a clean room for this since they aren't implementing a client and thus fall afoul of its copyright by doing so. Aside from that they can only review the network traffic which is effectively nothing more than a specification.
In the case of a civil suit you haven't broken a 'civil law' if you break the law that is criminal, if you break a contract that is civil.
The closest thing to 'civil laws' I know of are the way certain traffic citations are enforced by states. For example, toll violations. The argument is that you owe the state. Essentially the state legislature passes a law saying you'll be punished if you do X, but they code into the law that it is a civil offense.
States do this so they can try to avoid the expense of actual due process and proving these offenses. This is of questionable constitutionality, if the state mandates behavior and punishes your for violating that behavior then it is a criminal matter and you are entitled to a criminal burden of proof, miranda rights, etc. Generally, you can demand your case be tried in criminal rather than civil traffic court. They usually advise you of this right in fine print and coupled with a threat of potential consequences if you go this route.
IANAL, this is just my experience from fighting, and beating, a legislated 'civil' toll violation citation issue as a result of camera snapshot. In civil court my only option would have been to plea bargin, in criminal court it was tossed out since it was a long way from meeting the burden of proof.
AFAIK a clean room design with a spec is only needed if you are reversing the actual source code or binary.
If you reverse from the network protocol alone you couldn't be inspired by the source.
Since Blizzard is the only entity known to have the server binaries or source it would be impossible for anyone else to be inspired by the original code. The network protocol really is no more than a specification itself.
There is nothing about fair use that negates the possibility of making a profit. The only thing making a profit does is provide an easy metric for assessing damages if a judge decides what you did wasn't fair use.
"Also fair use does not stipulate you can use 100% of the source."
Your point? My comment didn't at any point include using any of the source and these server emulators don't use any of the original source either. They don't even use reversed source.
Monster stats aren't even vaguely within the realm of qualifying for a copyright.
The actual AI code used to implement the behavior would qualify but the behavior of the monsters isn't new, creative, or unique certainly on the level required for a copyright.
You could probably copyright the whole as a compilation like a reference book but they wouldn't be infringing on that here. They reverse engineered the stats and behavior of the creatures, there isn't even any guarantee they got it right.
The map is in the client, the server just stores coordinates. Again, a set of coords that overlays the map wouldn't be unique or creative enough to qualify for copyright protection (unlike the map itself). Everything else, all the artwork (including the map) the cities, the monsters, etc are all included in the client, lawfully purchased by the end user.
There doesn't need to be a disincentive. That only applies to criminal actions.
Its no different than if you sue a previous landlord for your deposit back on an apartment. The most you can get is the cost of the damages (the deposit) + the legal fees to recover it. It isn't like they fine the landlord extra for being wrong about owing you the deposit.
"There is zero question that this copyright violation:"
Only in your world. You do realize that reverse engineering for interoperability is actually a textbook case case of fair use? They can replicate anything they can sniff off the wire, including locs for the purpose of inter-operation with the client. This is no different than what is done with wine and samba.
To use a better analogy, this is like building your own theater from scratch (the server), buying a movie and watching it (their client used for reverse engineering), then re-enacting the movie as a play in their theater while requiring everyone to bring a voided ticket from an authorized distributor for said movie (the game client the end user is required to legally purchase before they can play on any server), and then selling popcorn at the performance (the micro-payments).
People mention the EULA forbids reverse engineering even if copyright allows it. That can be bypassed by installing sniffing software on another PC where your friend installs his game copy, agrees to the EULA, and plays it while you monitor the traffic from another PC or review the capture file after he is done. You haven't agreed to the EULA and he isn't reverse engineering. Problem solved and nobody broke the EULA or copyright.
Only if their mates are required to have voided local movie theater tickets for the same movie to watch. Then it fits.
The server admins aren't responsible for client violations of the EULA.
WOW Emulation servers have built up databases of monster stats, xp tables, etc completely independant of the official game.
Except in cases where these were reverse engineered but reverse engineering for interoperability with the client is a cut and dry case of fair use and there are a number of very high profile examples of this in practice such as wine and the samba project.
"Here we have a case of someone infringing Blizzard's work"
Nobody infringed on Blizzard's work. They offered a completely independently developed alternative to Blizzards work. It still required a legal purchase of the game client.
Reverse engineering for interoperability is protected as fair use. In this case they didn't even do the reverse engineering simply installed the result of such an effort.