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Tool Use By Humans Pushed Back By 800,000 Years

gpronger writes "The journal Nature reports that newly discovered tool marks on bones indicates that we were using tools at minimum 800,000 years earlier than previously thought. This places the start of tool use at 3.4 million years ago or earlier. The most likely ancestor in this time frame would be Australopithecus afarensis. The researchers, led by palaeoanthropologist Zeresenay Alemseged of the California Academy of Science, San Francisco,and Shannon McPherron, (an archaeologist at the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology in Leipzig, Germany) state that cut marks on the bones of an impala-sized creature and another closer in size to a buffalo, indicate butchering of the animals by our distant ancestors. However, they do not believe that they were in fact hunters, more likely scavenging the remains left behind by large predators."

189 comments

  1. But ... by electricprof · · Score: 0, Troll

    How many early humans were tools ...

    1. Re:But ... by WrongSizeGlass · · Score: 2, Funny

      How many early humans were tools ...

      Less than the number of internet users who are tools. /s

    2. Re:But ... by dangitman · · Score: 0, Redundant

      No, you're a tool!

      --
      ... and then they built the supercollider.
  2. What, from their club days? by Penguinisto · · Score: 4, Funny

    Oh, wait... wrong Tool.

    (I hate babysitting databases... makes the brain go all squiggly at 2 in the morning. At least now I can stop wondering if they found a fossilized CD player next to the bones...)

    --
    Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
    1. Re:What, from their club days? by L4t3r4lu5 · · Score: 1

      OGT, back from '92.

      3,400,092 BC, that is.

      --
      Finally had enough. Come see us over at https://soylentnews.org/
    2. Re:What, from their club days? by the_other_chewey · · Score: 1

      I hate babysitting databases...

      You had me wondering for quite a while here about who
      the hell would run a babysitting database, and if it could
      be someone from the "think of the children" crowd...

    3. Re:What, from their club days? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      Why exactly are you looking at babysitting databases? And why does that make you squiggly? And get that poor girl out of the freezer!

    4. Re:What, from their club days? by shadowofwind · · Score: 1

      No, you misunderstand. "Use By Humans", which was to have been their 4th full-length release in two decades, has been delayed 800,000 years.

      I hope this is what you had in mind, because this is what you're getting.

  3. Tool use is widespread by CharlyFoxtrot · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Turns out we're not the only animal that uses tools so there's no reason why it would have appeared recently in human evolution. What's more impressive is our ability to design tools to attain a certain objective by using only our imagination (abstract thought) rather than the ability to pick up a rock from the vicinity to carve up a carcass. That's likely much more recent.

    --
    If all else fails, immortality can always be assured by spectacular error.
    1. Re:Tool use is widespread by Zocalo · · Score: 1

      What's more impressive is our ability to design tools to attain a certain objective by using only our imagination (abstract thought) rather than the ability to pick up a rock from the vicinity to carve up a carcass. That's likely much more recent.

      Actually, abstract thought might not be as recent or require as much evolutionary development as is often thought either. See the video embedded on this page where I'd say that a chimpanzee is clearly demonstrating abstract thought, not only working out what tool to use (water) but also how to transfer and apply it to solve a problem.

      --
      UNIX? They're not even circumcised! Savages!
    2. Re:Tool use is widespread by kill-1 · · Score: 1

      Well, some birds do design their own tools (kind of) to attain a certain objective.

    3. Re:Tool use is widespread by c6gunner · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Actually, abstract thought might not be as recent or require as much evolutionary development as is often thought either.

      While I agree that this is a possibility, I think it's rather funny that you're using the behavior of a modern-day chimp as evidence. You do realize that the chimp in that video has had just as much time and "evolutionary development" as we have, don't you?

    4. Re:Tool use is widespread by Runaway1956 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Good link. I was sitting here thinking about all the tool using animals I've ever heard of. That page pretty much covers them. And, of course, primates pretty much lead the list. There was a story in the last couple years about a band of primates discovering a newer, better way to catch termites from a termite mound. I think they frayed the bit of straw or stick, giving the termites more area to grab hold of. The chimp got more termite chow for the same effort with the improved stick. The interesting bit was, they taught another band how to do the same thing.

      Man may be the most prolific tool user, but he certainly isn't unique.

      --
      "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
    5. Re: Tool use is widespread by Black+Parrot · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Turns out we're not the only animal that uses tools so there's no reason why it would have appeared recently in human evolution.

      The only surprise would be if the most recent common ancestor of ourselves and chimps *didn't* use tools, some six million years ago.

      --
      Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
    6. Re:Tool use is widespread by TapeCutter · · Score: 2, Informative

      Most things that are claimed to be uniquely human are just more sophisticated versions of what other intelligent animals can do. As you point out birds (and chimps) have primative tool designing abilities. Birds and chimps also make elaborate nests by collecting and assembling parts, chimp nests are a kind of bed they build in a tree to sleep at night.

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    7. Re:Tool use is widespread by tophermeyer · · Score: 2, Interesting

      +1 Insightful

      Chimps might appear to be more primitive than humans, but they are just as evolutionarily distant from our common ancestor as we are. Looking to chimps for evidence of human-like behavior is interesting in that it shows behaviors like tool use are not unique to humans, but is not really indicative of the capabilities of our ancestors. There is nothing really "advanced" about humans, we have simply evolved different capabilities. Remember that pound for pound and average chimp is about 10x stronger than an average human.

      We use our language and thinking skills to develop elaborate cooperative societies. Chimps do this on a smaller scale, but are more than able to beat a human to death in an individual confrontation. You can't really label on as more advanced than the other without understanding the the completely different contexts of our separate evolutions.

    8. Re:Tool use is widespread by MoriT · · Score: 1

      We're not even the only animal that does that: http://www.sciencemag.org/feature/data/crow/ But they haven't figured out how to make tools that make tools yet. When dolphins invent the microprocessor, humanity will finally have our worthy opponent!

    9. Re:Tool use is widespread by 0xdeadbeef · · Score: 1

      You do realize that the chimp in that video has had just as much time and "evolutionary development" as we have, don't you?

      lol, you think evolution is progress and that progress is getting smarter. You do realize how erroneous that is, don't you?

      The chimp skull resembles those of our early ancestors. The only conclusion you can draw is that abstract thought is possible in a primate brain of a certain size.

    10. Re:Tool use is widespread by gorzek · · Score: 2, Interesting

      And then you have species like dolphins, elephants, and pigs--all of which are very intelligent, they just lack the dextrous digits humans have so their ability to manipulate the environment is limited. Elephants are something of an exception due to their trunks, though--they can manipulate tools and perform complex tasks with them.

      We just hit the evolutionary lottery, as it were: opposable thumbs, high intelligence, complex vocal communication, abstract thought, and self-awareness. Those traits can all be found in other species. We're just unique for having the combination and for not losing those traits in favor of others.

    11. Re:Tool use is widespread by Asic+Eng · · Score: 1

      Well if two descendants of species X have the skill C, then it's a lot more likely that X also had C than it would be if only one of them had it. Of course it is possible for both descendants to develop C independently, but that would indicate that it might not be as hard to develop C. Those were the two options the GP pointed out.

    12. Re:Tool use is widespread by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      The interesting bit was, they taught another band how to do the same thing.

      Even house cats learn from others. The mammo cat teaches the kittens how to use a litter box, for example. My daughter's cat try to mimick human, to the point of petting your arm when they want to be petted themselves. The oldest one learned how to use a doorknob to get through a closed door.

    13. Re:Tool use is widespread by Chris+Burke · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Man may be the most prolific tool user, but he certainly isn't unique.

      But perhaps mankind is unique in our ability to consider ourselves unique, and to be off-put by the revelation that we aren't.

      Also, we may be unique in contemplating the idea of wiping out those other pesky tool-using animals to restore our uniqueness.

      Or maybe that's just my uniqueness. :)

      --

      The enemies of Democracy are
    14. Re:Tool use is widespread by paragon1 · · Score: 0

      But if I have a gun, it'll take a lot more than one chimp to cause trouble for me.

    15. Re:Tool use is widespread by L3370 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You do realize that the chimp in that video has had just as much time and "evolutionary development" as we have, don't you?

      Yeah something like six thousand years. :P

      *removes flamesuit*

    16. Re:Tool use is widespread by tophermeyer · · Score: 1

      But if I have a gun, it'll take a lot more than one chimp to cause trouble for me.

      Right, that was kind of my point. We (humans) have a very strong collaborative society that allows us to do things like research and manufacturing. In that sense the argument is very compelling that the development of higher order intelligence places us at an advantage over other organisms.

      That gun is a very good metaphor for the research and manufacturing capabilities that our particular evolutionary path has allowed. I'm not arguing that humans are not the dominant species on Earth, but if you put humans into a Chimps evolutionary niche you will probably see first hand how advanced they are within that niche.

    17. Re:Tool use is widespread by ultranova · · Score: 1

      Chimps might appear to be more primitive than humans, but they are just as evolutionarily distant from our common ancestor as we are.

      Of course, modern-day bacteria are also just as evolutionarily distant from our common ancestor as we are, yet I'd say they are quite a bit more primitive than us.

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    18. Re:Tool use is widespread by c6gunner · · Score: 1

      lol, you think evolution is progress and that progress is getting smarter

      I do? Interesting. I'd be curious to know how you've come to that conclusion, given that I was saying the exact opposite.

    19. Re:Tool use is widespread by tophermeyer · · Score: 1

      Of course, modern-day bacteria are also just as evolutionarily distant from our common ancestor as we are, yet I'd say they are quite a bit more primitive than us.

      Just a quick note on the term primitive. Within anthropological discussions the word primitive is used to describe features that have been passed down unchanged from an ancestor. Primitive does not inherently imply that the feature is less fit, detrimental, barbaric etc.

      In your case though, Primitive is the perfect term. Modern bacteria are functionally very similar to the kinds of bacteria that we sprung from. But that does not mean that modern bacteria are not successful in their own way. Bacteria grows practically anywhere on the planet. Some species are incredibly hard to kill, many types serve critical functions in our digestive and eco systems. Furthermore, they are much better suited to rapid evolution. Short lifespans and higher rates of mutation allow them to evolve very quickly in response to a changing environment.

    20. Re:Tool use is widespread by 0xdeadbeef · · Score: 1

      given that I was saying the exact opposite.

      No, you weren't. But since you're agreeing with me, I guess you answered my condescending question, didn't you?

    21. Re:Tool use is widespread by Psaakyrn · · Score: 1
    22. Re:Tool use is widespread by evilviper · · Score: 1

      We just hit the evolutionary lottery, as it were: opposable thumbs, high intelligence, complex vocal communication, abstract thought, and self-awareness.

      If it was the dolphins that gained self-awareness, they'd be studying humans, lamenting the fact that humans are quite smart, they're just crippled by the lack of a dorsal fin.

      We have good features, and poor ones. That we think the features we have are THE GOOD ONES TO HAVE is a bit of ignorance, because we KNOW the benefits of the features we have, see the good things that can be done with them, and DON'T KNOW what great things we could have done if we'd only had wings, gills, pouches, fins, etc.

      --
      Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
    23. Re:Tool use is widespread by asecure · · Score: 1

      given that I was saying the exact opposite.

      No, you weren't. But since you're agreeing with me, I guess you answered my condescending question, didn't you?

      he was. you should re-read his comments again.

  4. And by dimethylxanthine · · Score: 2, Interesting

    How long until we learn to use them properly, i.e. mindfully and responsibly?

    ------
    How tool are you today?

    1. Re:And by MichaelSmith · · Score: 2, Funny

      With luck, another 800 000 years.

    2. Re:And by Stargoat · · Score: 1

      This is funny, because I thought reality television pushed human culture back 800 000 years.

      --
      Hoist Number One and Number Six.
    3. Re:And by couchslug · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "How long until we learn to use them properly, i.e. mindfully and responsibly? "

      Until Evolution selects for those behaviors.

      --
      "This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
    4. Re:And by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Really? Billions of humans around the world use billions of tools mindfully and responsibly every single day.

      Yes, there are exceptions.

  5. Good god... by geogob · · Score: 4, Funny

    ...then we've been using tool even before earth, the sky and whatnot were created! What a mind blowing revelation.

    1. Re:Good god... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Actually it makes you wonder, if the progress to get there took 800000 years, then what happened in the past 10000 is really incredible.

    2. Re:Good god... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yup but I bet the plumber he was waiting for still hasnt shown up!

    3. Re:Good god... by JustOK · · Score: 2, Funny

      what the hell is a mediphore?

      --
      rewriting history since 2109
    4. Re:Good god... by alaffin · · Score: 1

      what the hell is a mediphore?

      For giving rise to one of the leaders of the Third Servile War?

    5. Re:Good god... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Most religious people understand that first few chapters were in mediphore...

      Most religious people (of the Judeo-Christian faith) believe that the first few chapters (and many later chapters) are metaphor. Just as most religious people (of the Judeo-Christian faith) once believed that the entire book was the absolute, unadulterated truth.

    6. Re:Good god... by Evtim · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I disagree. What I see is that our civilization behaves like biology does not exists. All the numerous useful facts and predictions of evolution and ecology are constantly and often deliberately kept unintelligible to the general public. Biology is the queen of all sciences, hands down, and it is the most relevant to us as a species. Sure, physics, maths and inorganic chemistry are all very important and necessary foundation, but organic chemistry and biology are the real deal.

      Almost nobody understands evolution properly. I am just back from lunch with my fantastically intelligent colleagues-physicists and they definitely did not know evolution. I mentioned to them that during the domestication of wolves as much as we selected them, they selected us too. They were baffled.

      I said "Imagine that the wolves are coming closer to human settlement. The bravest wolves come the closest and try to pick some left overs. Eventually over time a mutually beneficial system emerges - we feed them, they help us hunting and guarding the settlement. We selected the wolves that are most-human friendly (least afraid of humans) and then encouraged their survival and procreation. All is well. Now, suppose that in the neighboring settlement a behavior "I hate/ I am afraid of wolves/dogs" occurs among the humans (genetically or socially determined or both). Well, this village will not have the benefit of guarding dogs against predators or other humans. They will suffer more casualties than the first village. Over time the difference becomes more and more significant until the "I hate/ I am afraid of dogs" behavior becomes negligibly small or vanishes. The net result - humans selected by wolves...even after this example which is quite clear IMO, I did not see the spark of enlightenment in the colleague's eyes. Even to this people - non religious, highly educated (from three different continents too), "selection" could only be a directed, conscious effort.

      Here is a small story to illustrate:

      The History of the Universe according to me (or why biology is the queen):

      In the beginning it was physics - a set of forces and rules and looooong time. Everything that could happen, happened, so we got stars and most of the elements and all the possible inorganic components between those elements and all the possible products and processes of nuclear physics. That was the first of the "phase spaces" the Universe explored.

      And among the elements there was carbon, which could chain with itself within certain limits of temperature and pressure. And it opened the second of the "phase spaces" - organic chemistry. And it was good, because the number of possible products and reactions was huge compared to inorganic chemistry and nuclear physics. Just the number of different chemical reactions between organic compounds in the "primal soup" of the Earth for a mere millions of years greatly exceeds the number of all atoms in the observable Universe. And since the time scales were still truly vast, anything that could happen, happened. And among the things that happened was the first immortal (but imperfect) replicator making copies of itself from components in its environment. And thus evolution began.

      And once the so-called "nervous systems" of the living beings became so complex as to allow conciseness to emerge, an Observer of the Universe, the third "phase space" was accessible - the "phase space" of the mind, which is not even a material thing (as atoms) but "merely" a process carried out by a living, evolved beings.

      And the complexity, intricacy and relevance (to us) of those phase spaces increases from the first to the second to the third. Thus biology, with its subsets like medicine, ecology, neurological sciences est. is the queen. And thus, it is no small matter at all when people are deliberately kept ignorant of it.

      So, until society smartens up enough, we must challenge ignorance given half a chance. Our very survival is at stake!

    7. Re:Good god... by DinDaddy · · Score: 1

      Something that eats drugs? And can't spell metaphor?

    8. Re:Good god... by natarnsco · · Score: 1

      So if biology is the queen of science, what is the king?

    9. Re:Good god... by Wizard+Drongo · · Score: 1

      If the idea of "phases" as you posit, is true, then in fact, you have shown biology NOT to be the 'queen' you espouse.

      Whilst biology does indeed have subsets such as neurosciences, medicine, ecology etc., I''d argue they're phase-2 related, or at the very most, phase 2.5.
      They all pretty much concern thee physical study of life-forms. Since phase two was the growth of carbon-based systems, be it organic chem., or life itself, biochemists, biologists, doctors of medicine etc. are all studying the physical properties of phase 2, namely, life.
      Stage three is as you said, a purely mental thing; an abstraction to thought, not mere atoms, but a thinking process, only carried out in the highest forms of stage-2. Whilst biologists study those forms of life, they do NOT study the thinking process. Indeed, they shun away from it.

      So be it computer scientists, who with their flakes of silicon and traces of gold have made a new phase (albeit not one as sophisticated an intelligence as humanity...yet), philosophers who ponder the thinking process, and the meaning of the entire universe (they are literally the "observers" you spoke of) or even the misguided religious types, also, in their own somewhat addled way, trying to define what this thought thing is, and where the universe is headed; all these folks are above the physicists, the chemists, and yes, the biologists, who whilst study previous phases of our universe, and engage in a lot of thought, are not themselves studying the third phase, thought itself.

      Extra irony factor - captcha: "tribal"

      --
      The truth shall always be free: Boris Floricic is Tron.
    10. Re:Good god... by sglewis100 · · Score: 1

      Some still believe that it's unadulterated truth even though it's obvious that the bible is a book written by "man" for "man" to control "man"..... The whole purpose of the Catholic church is about control of the unwashed masses.

      That's probably not the "whole purpose" of the Catholic church. I wouldn't know, I'm not Catholic. Southern Baptists, for example believe that The Holy Bible was written by men divinely inspired and is God's revelation of Himself to man.. Gerald Schroeder has some very interesting books attempting to bridge Science and Genesis together. Schroeder is both a Jewish theologist and teacher and physicist, although his background is a bit more weighted towards science.

      Some how, I have a bad feeling I'm about to get both down modded and a bunch of flame responses. But that said, there really are a few educated spiritual people out there, you don't have to be 100% pro-science or 100% pro-religion.

    11. Re:Good god... by whrrr · · Score: 0

      It's possible your colleagues were baffled because your statement is a non sequitur. The fact that wolves were domesticated by man does not automatically imply that this act was beneficial to humans.

      Perhaps a more general rule of "domestication of animals is helpful" provided an overall benefit in spite of the costly affair of feeding stray wolves specifically.
      Perhaps wolves managed to hijack our innate tendency to like small furry animals http://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2010/08/11/why-are-animals-cute/
      Or perhaps, as you say, domestication of wolves provided a benefit in terms of guarding, or tracking large game animals, etc.

      Probably all three, to an extent. If you still disagree, apply your same logic to cats and goldfish :)

    12. Re:Good god... by hawkfish · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I disagree. What I see is that our civilization behaves like biology does not exists.

      There is a quote that I thought was from Illuminatus! that goes:

      There are two rules of human behavior. Rule 1 is "Humans are primates" and rule 2 is "Most humans don't know rule 1."

      but I can't seem to track it down.

      --
      You will not drink with us, but you would taste our steel? - Walter Matthau, The Pirates
    13. Re:Good god... by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 1

      I mentioned to them that during the domestication of wolves as much as we selected them, they selected us too. They were baffled.

      Just wait until next time you tell them that cheese selected for Europeans. That culture is an active part of determining genotype is hard to grasp.

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    14. Re:Good god... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      and we're seeing the emergence of the fourth "phase space" -- the iNternet!

    15. Re:Good god... by Idiomatick · · Score: 1

      "We know that. Now can we get onto the science."

      I don't think everyone does and it is so basic. So no, it can be belaboured enough. Until people that treat the religious the same as other people with imaginary friends or other psychological breaks. My mother has been borderline racist as of late and I use every interaction with a person of differing race to point out how ridiculous her position really is.

    16. Re:Good god... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >And once the so-called "nervous systems" of the living beings became so complex as to allow conciseness to emerge, ...to bad conciseness didn't emerge in you post. It was rather long.

      (No offense; I enjoyed your post... but I just couldn't resist the opportunity for a lame joke.)

  6. Evolution by onion2k · · Score: 4, Funny

    Nearly three and a half million years of humans using tools, and I can't even put up a shelf. If you want evidence that evolution isn't all it's cracked up to be, there it is.

    1. Re:Evolution by Finallyjoined!!! · · Score: 4, Funny

      I can put up a shelf. But I can't butcher a carcass. Evolution in reverse eh?.

      --
      If I had an Ass, I'd call it Fanny Bottom, then I could slap my Ass; Fanny Bottom, on the Arse.
    2. Re:Evolution by MichaelSmith · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I can put up a shelf. But I can't butcher a carcass. Evolution in reverse eh?.

      The other day I was sitting in a release planning meeting, listing to a discussion about our version control system and related tooling. Suddenly I had this thought that we were all just a bunch of apes, manipulating abstractions of abstractions of tools ultimately designed to help us catch our dinner. Now I don't know how we do it at all. It all seems so unlikely.

    3. Re:Evolution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The other day I was sitting in a release planning meeting, listing to a discussion about our version control system and related tooling. Suddenly I had this thought that we were all just a bunch of apes, manipulating abstractions of abstractions of tools ultimately designed to help us catch our dinner. Now I don't know how we do it at all. It all seems so unlikely.

      But much more importantly: how did the release go?

    4. Re:Evolution by bazorg · · Score: 2, Funny

      I thought you were going to say: The other day I was sitting in a release planning meeting and all I could think about was butchering carcasses.

    5. Re:Evolution by MichaelSmith · · Score: 2, Funny

      I thought you were going to say: The other day I was sitting in a release planning meeting and all I could think about was butchering carcasses.

      ...of management. Yeah that too.

    6. Re:Evolution by delire · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Suddenly I had this thought that we were all just a bunch of apes, manipulating abstractions of abstractions of tools ultimately designed to help us catch our dinner.

      The real abstraction you're talking about is post-industrial capitalism. Meat eaters often consider themselves somehow kin to the Great Hunter, that by eating a bloody steak they are somehow closer to the earth and it's mortal realities yet they couldn't be further from it. Rather, they cowardly pay another to kill a sick beast - stoned on antibiotics so that it can actually live and eat corn - on their behalf. I say that as someone that grew up on a farm and often ate what I killed with my own hands.

      Unlike our hunter forebears, people caneat meat every day because of the abstraction of late capitalism. I encourage every meat eater to take the life of the thing they want to eat, at least once in their lives. Look at the beast in the eyes, take its life and then eat parts of its body. A highly valuable dietary - and somehow even spiritual - reality check.

    7. Re:Evolution by MichaelSmith · · Score: 2, Funny

      The other day I was sitting in a release planning meeting, listing to a discussion about our version control system and related tooling. Suddenly I had this thought that we were all just a bunch of apes, manipulating abstractions of abstractions of tools ultimately designed to help us catch our dinner. Now I don't know how we do it at all. It all seems so unlikely.

      But much more importantly: how did the release go?

      So-so

    8. Re:Evolution by chill · · Score: 4, Funny

      You've been thru a Sharepoint deployment, too?

      --
      Learning HOW to think is more important than learning WHAT to think.
    9. Re:Evolution by c6gunner · · Score: 0, Redundant

      A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.

      -Robert A. Heinlein

      Luckily for you, putting up a shelf isn't on the list.

    10. Re:Evolution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Plus, the animals you get to kill with your own hands are often more tasty than "a sick beast - stoned on antibiotics so that it can actually live and eat corn".

    11. Re:Evolution by roman_mir · · Score: 4, Funny

      As a vegetarian I do it every day, I look that salad right into the eye and put it out of its misery.

    12. Re:Evolution by Runaway1956 · · Score: 1

      Ha! Some of us have actually butchered our own meat. Deer, pig, and cows, not to mention loads of small game and fish. Butchering isn't a lost art out in the sticks.

      And, yes, I like my beef medium rare to rare. I don't want the blood to actually dribble down my chin - but I most definitely want it JUICY!!

      --
      "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
    13. Re:Evolution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Look at the beast in the eyes, take its life and then eat parts of its body

      This would surely make those McDonalds birthday parties *way* more exciting for the kids.

    14. Re:Evolution by El_Muerte_TDS · · Score: 5, Funny

      Maybe I didn't get the memo, but as far as I know salad shouldn't have an eye.

    15. Re:Evolution by jellomizer · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      O.K. It look like some one needs to stop reading the liberal media for a while. The post was so out of context that it wasn't at all useful. Chill man. You don't need to rant about problems in our food system just because some one uttered the word food.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    16. Re:Evolution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's the eye of a healthy storm. And now that I've begrudgingly called vegetarians healthy, I can't help but want to go have a hamburger.

    17. Re:Evolution by roman_mir · · Score: 2, Funny

      Well then, you should see the teeth on a cucumber...

    18. Re:Evolution by MichaelSmith · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      Look at the beast in the eyes, take its life and then eat parts of its body

      This would surely make those McDonalds birthday parties *way* more exciting for the kids.

      Yes what we need is an animal which wants to be eaten. HHTG aside my wife is of Chinese origin and every time her family eat crab or lobster for dinner they insist on being photographed with the live animal 20 minutes before the main course is served.

      I'm the squeamish one who asks for a "nice glass of water".

    19. Re:Evolution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      crazy rednecks itt

    20. Re:Evolution by JustOK · · Score: 2, Informative

      potato salads might have eyes.

      --
      rewriting history since 2109
    21. Re:Evolution by geogob · · Score: 1

      That would be true if evolution was a purely individual thing. But the evolution of social behavior, living in society where people specialized their skills to be more efficient and trade their skills against skills of other is also part of the evolution of mankind. That's why you'll always find someone to put up that tablet for you...

      In the end, I feel that this social evolution is much more cracked up than the biological evolution.

    22. Re:Evolution by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      All I know is that bloody, sick, whatever - meat tastes good.

      I've never killed a cow - but I regularly go fishing and then eat the fish... does that count?

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    23. Re:Evolution by MoriT · · Score: 1

      But who will do the dishes?

    24. Re:Evolution by sorak · · Score: 3, Funny

      Maybe shelves have evolved a defense against being put up. Have you ever considered that?

      I'm thinking of calling it "The IKEA Gene"

    25. Re:Evolution by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      Well, you need to be taught how to do those things or you'll do it very poorly if you even get it done at all. "If I see farther than other men, it's because I stand on the shoulders of giants."

      I don't see how anyone could not be able to put up a shelf. At least a bad one, anyway. I was cleaning rabbits and squirrels when I was six or seven years old; my dad was an avid hunter. But like I said, if I hadn't been taught I'd do a piss-poor job trying to.

    26. Re:Evolution by Theoboley · · Score: 1

      The Insects, of course

      --
      Stupidity only gets you so far, then you've gotta try
    27. Re:Evolution by PPH · · Score: 1
      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
    28. Re:Evolution by Urkki · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I can put up a shelf. But I can't butcher a carcass. Evolution in reverse eh?.

      Sure you can. If you were put naked into the wilderness, surrounded with carcasses and no other food in sight, you'd probably be digging into them with a makeshift stone knife in a matter of hours, especially if you were aware that your life depended on it.

      Don't underestimate the power of knowledge, even if it's just knowledge that something can be done, but not knowing how.

    29. Re:Evolution by ColdWetDog · · Score: 1

      I'm thinking of calling it "The IKEA Gene"

      More like IKEA "documentation" - best defense against setting up a shelf ever devised.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    30. Re:Evolution by flaming+error · · Score: 1

      > somehow even spiritual
      I guess I can kind of imagine what you mean, but I can't relate. I've killed animals before and likely will again, but the feelings I get are a momentary thrill of success if it was a hunt, sorrow for the loss and remorse for what I've done, and a satiated belly if I eat it.

    31. Re:Evolution by Abcd1234 · · Score: 1

      but the feelings I get are a momentary thrill of success if it was a hunt, sorrow for the loss and remorse for what I've done, and a satiated belly if I eat it.

      I dunno, one of the functions of your average grazing animal is to be food for those higher up in the food chain, and that includes humans. I'd feel *far* more remorse if I simply killed an animal, or worse, stuffed and mounted the thing. Sport hunters? Seriously, you fuckers can go die in a fire. But hunting, and then eating what we kill, is, I think, nothing to be ashamed of.

    32. Re:Evolution by sorak · · Score: 1

      I'm thinking of calling it "The IKEA Gene"

      More like IKEA "documentation" - best defense against setting up a shelf ever devised.

      In all honesty, I have never bought an item from IKEA. It just sounds better than "cheap Chinese crap bought from Target". The documentation that gets my goat is when someone produces text-free instructions. Every step is just a drawing. I usually refer to them a hieroglyphics, and gripe that they couldn't pay one person who speaks the language of whatever country the product is being marketed in, to type up a description.

    33. Re:Evolution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I thought you were going to say: The other day I was sitting in a release planning meeting and all I could think about was butchering carcasses.

      Well, THAT goes without saying...

    34. Re:Evolution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I can put up a shelf. But I can't butcher a carcass. Evolution in reverse eh?.

      I can put put up a shelf and butcher a carcass. Is that proof that I'm more evolved then you? I don't feel very evolved.

    35. Re:Evolution by delire · · Score: 1

      I dunno, one of the functions of your average grazing animal is to be food for those higher up in the food chain, and that includes humans.

      Very few of the animals eaten by people presently are "grazing animals". To cite an earlier post, given that a tiny proportion of cows actually slaughtered for sale of their parts have actually eaten grass in their lives, they are also full of all sorts of pesticides, dioxins in the fatty tissue being one particularly nasty result. These mutants don't eat eat grass, as their ancestors have, but corn, soya beans and oats.

      Around 70% of all grains grown in the U.S are fed to animals to turn into tissue which is then eaten. A highly inefficient and environmentally costly source of proteins. In fact the inefficiency ratio is widely considered to be around 54:1.

    36. Re:Evolution by Abcd1234 · · Score: 1

      Very few of the animals eaten by people presently are "grazing animals".

      I actually said nothing about farmed animals. I was referring to the act of killing and eating wild animals, as was the GP.

      Maybe try and focus on the topic at hand, rather than attempting to twist it so you can, if you'll pardon the metaphor, beat your preferred dead horse.

    37. Re:Evolution by painandgreed · · Score: 1

      I can put up a shelf. But I can't butcher a carcass. Evolution in reverse eh?.

      Get hungry enough, and you'll figure it out. You may not be good at it, but you'll get better or die.

    38. Re:Evolution by Trogre · · Score: 1

      It could be a potato salad.

      --
      "Nine times out of ten, starting a fire is not the best way to solve the problem." - my wife
    39. Re:Evolution by hkmwbz · · Score: 1

      Meat eaters often consider themselves somehow kin to the Great Hunter, that by eating a bloody steak they are somehow closer to the earth

      WTF are you talking about? I don't know anyone who eats meat who do so because they "feel closer to the earth." They eat it because they like the taste of it. You are assuming that because your food choices are because of ideology and an obvious holier-than-thou attitude, everyone else is the same. That is simply not true.

      Meat eaters don't "often" consider themselves that. They never do. You are just making stuff up because you like to feel superior by lying about other people.

      --
      Clever signature text goes here.
    40. Re:Evolution by sisinka · · Score: 1

      Unlike our hunter forebears, people can eat meat every day because of the abstraction of late capitalism. I encourage every meat eater to take the life of the thing they want to eat, at least once in their lives. Look at the beast in the eyes, take its life and then eat parts of its body. A highly valuable dietary - and somehow even spiritual - reality check.

      I second that. Factory farming is a proof that technology evolves dramatically faster then mankind.
      Yes, I'm really happy to be a vegan.

      --
      My parser is a grammar nazi.
  7. WELL by ciderbrew · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I think we all agree here that this is "just a theory". Despite all that MumboJumbo you call "Science".
    It's only a theory. Like gravity and maths.

    +6 flamebate on other sites, this sort of talk is you know...

    1. Re:WELL by m.ducharme · · Score: 1

      only a theory. Like gravity and maths.

      Mods, this should have been your clue.

      +6 flamebate on other sites, this sort of talk is you know...

      Did you mods even read this?

      --
      Rule of Slashdot #0: You and people like you are not representative of the larger population. - A.C.
    2. Re:WELL by chichilalescu · · Score: 1

      just a moment. the fact that people have been using tools for a very long time doesn't mean that they have to read the instructions before.

      --
      new sig
    3. Re:WELL by Kozar_The_Malignant · · Score: 0, Troll

      Sadly, I have no mod points today, so rather than correct this, I have to point out that whoever modded this "Troll" clearly left their ability to recognize humor and wit in their jammies when they got up this morning. Idiot!

      --
      Some mornings it's hardly worth chewing through the restraints to get out of bed.
  8. "That's likely much more recent" - Really? by Kupfernigk · · Score: 4, Insightful

    You may be correct, but you have not the slightest evidence to back up that claim. There are many, many other issues to consider, such as environmental pressure or the lack thereof, and the difficulty of abstract thought before there were any abstractions - the bootstrap problem. Our present ability to think of new tools in an environment surrounded by them is not, perhaps, that impressive. The first person to think of trimming a sharp rock for better performance was a genuine innovator.

    --
    From scarped cliff or quarried stone she cries "A thousand types are gone, I care for nothing, no not one."
    1. Re:"That's likely much more recent" - Really? by asc99c · · Score: 4, Funny

      > The first person to think of trimming a sharp rock for better performance was a genuine innovator.

      If only they'd patented it!

    2. Re:"That's likely much more recent" - Really? by discord5 · · Score: 5, Funny

      The first person to think of trimming a sharp rock for better performance was a genuine innovator.

      Sadly, the word innovation and all the derivative vocabulary that comes with it due to overuse in the latest marketing fodder triggered an image of a caveman named Zog making a sharper rock. When he had finally created this technological marvel the word quickly spread in the local tribal community. The tribe would go out hunting, and those whose rocks didn't meet required sharpness criteria would be considered to be fools clinging to obsolete technology. In a matter of days, Zog had ascended from lowly rockbasher to an expert in the field of innovative hunting.

      Zog had it all: finely cut food from the most tasty animals the local wildlife had to offer, the adoration of the masses, commanding power over the world because of his fearsomely sharp weaponry, and a veritable harem of alluring females. A few weeks after his rise to power though, things weren't looking so great anymore for Zog. Nerg, the foul smelling tribal lunatic, had taken his innovative rocksharpening technique and had improved the process by a factor of 2 by means of sustained repetitive bashing. No longer did Zog have the sharpest rocks in the tribe, and almost instantaneously he lost it all. The masses no longer adored him for they were too busy hunting with Nerg. His power over the world stagnated and eventually had to make way for the sharper weaponry of Nerg. But most important of all, his considerably sized harem of willing females left him for the newer more powerful rocksharpener.

      And that is how the Tribal Patent Orgnanization was formed. Scratched into a cavewall for all eternity we find the worlds first patent: "TPO Issued Patent #00000001 : A technique for sharpening rocks by bashing rocks against eachother.". It includes various drawings on rock sharpening techniques and a vague description of acquiring a harem by the use of these techniques. Unfortunately Zog never got to sue Nerg in a tribal court of law, because Nerg bashed in his skull with an incredibly sharp rock several minutes after filing the patent.

      To this day, Nerg is remembered as the worlds first innovator and harem owner.

      True story!

      (I apologize for the precious time I stole from you to read this, but the code I'm writing right now is slowly killing my brain unless I entertain it a little in small doses. Tune in next comment, when Dorg invents fire and accidentally burns down his cave, and is remembered throughout history as the worlds smartest and most stupid caveman of all time. Don't miss out on how Dorg later also invents insurance fraud.)

    3. Re:"That's likely much more recent" - Really? by JustOK · · Score: 3, Funny

      alleged insurance fraud. It hasn't been proven yet.

      --
      rewriting history since 2109
    4. Re:"That's likely much more recent" - Really? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Our present ability to think of new tools in an environment surrounded by them is not, perhaps, that impressive.

      That part is at least testable, albeit not particularly ethical - go raise a child in the wilderness somewhere without using any tools beyond what you can find naturally and see if they intuitively solve the abstraction problem. If they do, it's likely a developed part of the brain, if not then you're right, the first person to show us how this was done was probably the pivotal point in human development (Adam, as it were, unless it was an Eve).

    5. Re:"That's likely much more recent" - Really? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      You'd more likely need a pack of feral children. One of the traits we share in common with much of the animal world is the ability to observe and replicate, which wouldn't require abstract thought. All it would take is just one person with some genetic aberration to be able to design these tools, and the rest of the pack could follow. They wouldn't necessarily know *why* they're doing it the way they are, but they know doing so would produce a desired outcome. Monkey see, monkey do.

    6. Re:"That's likely much more recent" - Really? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, then it would be prior cave-art.

    7. Re:"That's likely much more recent" - Really? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      This brings to mind the paradox of Thag, who patented a "process of using persistent symbolic forms for the purpose of communicating ideas". Mind you, Thag's patent was TPO issued patent #00000004, and it wasn't long, thereafter, that Nerg brought Thag before the tribal council to complain the impossibility of this. Since Nerg's previous patent was inscribed in a manner as described by Thag's patent, it became readily apparent to the council that Thag was either a patent troll, or that Nerg was guilty of IP infringement.

      Ordinarily, Nerg would've just bashed in Thag's skull, but in this case, Thag just happened to a full head and shoulders taller than Nerg, and was renowned for his prowess in wrestling cave bears for the entertainment of the tribe. (Well, you can't make cave paintings without dealing with the cave bears, first, you know!) That, and Thag's brother, "Cannibal" Uchuk, just happened to have mentioned to Nerg that if anything happened to Thag, it would likely cost Nerg an arm and a leg to resolve the matter. It was thus that the world's first Patent dispute occurred.

      Uchuk later went on to a successful career as a patent lawyer, whose professional motto was quickly recognized amongst many tribes as "If Uchuk can't beat 'em, eat 'em!"

    8. Re:"That's likely much more recent" - Really? by dan828 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It's something people don't seem to get-- mostly I think because our education system is full of little stories about how "stupid" people of the past were for believing something we see as foolish now, or because they didn't have electricity or some such (like knowing how to flip a light switch somehow makes you a genius). People genetically indistinguishable from us lived in the stone age, and their technological know how involved use of natural materials to create what we consider to be crude tools, yet, all in all, those people probably had a great deal more know-how then most people around today. They could make tools, hunt or gather their food, build a fire to cook it, and fashion a shelter to protect themselves from the elements. Most modern people only know how to use tools that others have created and haven't a clue how any of them work.

    9. Re:"That's likely much more recent" - Really? by ultranova · · Score: 1

      There are many, many other issues to consider, such as environmental pressure or the lack thereof, and the difficulty of abstract thought before there were any abstractions - the bootstrap problem.

      All animals with some kind of nervous system have abstractions. The whole point of a nervous system is summarize sensory input and decide on a course of action. What humans have is a means to communicate abstractions of arbitrary level from one to other; in other words, a symbolic language.

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    10. Re:"That's likely much more recent" - Really? by the+phantom · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Yes, but neither the article nor the post that you responded to have anything to do with Stone Age people who are nearly identical to modern humans on a genetic level. Rather, the article refers to tool use by A. afarensis ("Lucy's" species). This is a rather extraordinary find, as not only was Lucy very different from modern humans (smaller, more gracile in general, smaller brain, &c.), but if Lucy was using tools, then the first evidence of any human ancestor using tools gets pushed back almost a million years.

      As to more primitive peoples having more know-how than modern societies, that depends upon what you mean by "know-how." A primitive hunter-gatherer would have to know how to do everything required by his or her society: hunt for game, gather wild resources, make tools from stone, wood, and other materials, preserve food, &c. They were generalists. Modern societies trade breadth of knowledge for depth of knowledge. Rather than working as jacks-of-all-trades, modern people specialize. They may not have the same breadth of knowledge or ability, but they are able to understand a narrower range of ideas or skills much more deeply. I see this as a qualitative difference in "know-how," rather than a quantitative difference.

    11. Re:"That's likely much more recent" - Really? by Psaakyrn · · Score: 1
    12. Re:"That's likely much more recent" - Really? by the_womble · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I agree. We know more, there are some things in our social organisation that are better (democracy, vs feudalism, bans on toruture, etc.).

      On the other hand, we can sometimes be worse: we can be cruel and uncarig - which is perhaps why 13th century England had only 188 suicides over a century, whereas the UK currently has about 3,000 a year (a MUCH higher per capita rate even with the roughly 30 fold population growth).

    13. Re:"That's likely much more recent" - Really? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      maybe you have a good idea, but when I read your first run-on, convoluted sentence I decided it wasn't worth it to try and find out.

    14. Re:"That's likely much more recent" - Really? by cfrankb1 · · Score: 1, Funny

      They needed to invent the lawyers first ! :D

  9. not exactly... by m.shenhav · · Score: 4, Informative

    It should be noted that while human imagination is alright, its in fact failing us most of the time when it comes to technology (as statistics on patents and businesses show). It can be thought of as mutation in the process of cultural evolution.

    People try stuff out and see what works, often discovering a very different application then originally intended or finding the thing useless. This is selection.

    It is the accurate transmission (or in evolution terms reproduction) of complex multi-step tool production methods that allows for cumulative cultural evolution. This kind of thing is hard to prove for animals- but there are chimpanzee troops with multi-step tool production.

    The recombination of such behaviors/tools/ideas is accelerating the process even further, which is why technological evolution is accelerating while genetically we haven't changed that much (conjecture!). In fact we have not so distant relatives (so called Boskop man) that had larger average cranial volume.

  10. Fixed that for ya by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    we were using tools at minimum 800,000 years earlier than we previously had evidence for.

    Pedantry aside, friggin wow... not just 3.4 million years of tool use, but being able to figure that out. The scientific concept of "prehistory" isn't even two hundred years old.

  11. Nomenclature by sammysheep · · Score: 1

    I have read that paleoanthropologists sometimes use the word "human" for a variety genera including Australopithecus, Paranthropus, Homo, et cetera.. While these are all hominids, what the average person would call "human" are referred to as "anatomically modern humans" or Homo sapiens sapiens by paleoanthropologists. I hope this nomenclature helps clear up any confusion.

  12. Bah by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That's lunacy! I can offer alternate descriptions of every one of those articles which is just as ingenious as yours.

  13. Signs of lawyers among early man? ;-) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    they do not believe that they were in fact hunters, more likely scavenging the remains left behind by large predators

    1. Re:Signs of lawyers among early man? ;-) by delinear · · Score: 1

      they do not believe that they were in fact hunters, more likely scavenging the remains left behind by large predators

      It's highly likely but we can't be sure until they find some primitive C&D orders carved on stone.

  14. Depressing by Cockatrice_hunter · · Score: 1

    Is it just me or is this a bit depressing. Before it was look at all we've accomplished in the past 2.5 million years, now it has become: it's taken 3.4 million years to get to where we are?

    1. Re:Depressing by mcgrew · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Is it just me or is this a bit depressing. Before it was look at all we've accomplished in the past 2.5 million years, now it has become: it's taken 3.4 million years to get to where we are?

      But look at how fast we're preogressing now. I'm 58, looking back at my childhood, things were really primitive back then. A computer was a multimillion dollar building sized machine that your cell phone is now more powerful than. All telephones had cords and dials, there were no microwave ovens, color TV was a rarity, no VCRs, No GPS, no ABS or air bags in cars, no remote controls (some TVs had them, but they were likewise rare and expensive). Medicine was incredibly primitive; they used automotive starting fluid as an anasthetic, and let me tell you, that stuff is nightmarish.

      No lasers, no integrated circuts (TVs still used tubes), no fuel injection except in race cars, no satellites except the moon; no space travel at all (I remember when the Russians scared the hell out of us by shooting Yuri Gagarin into space). No robots, no cordless tools... the list is seemingly endless.

      I'm living in a push-button science-fiction world. It's just that there wasn't that much progress in times past.

  15. Wrong questions? by maroberts · · Score: 1

    A number of animals are capable of taking an everyday object (e.g a stone, stick or bone) lying around and using it to achieve an objective.

    The real questions are:
    a) how many animals are capable of taking an everyday object, improving it for the purpose they have in mind and then using it to achieve an objective?
    b) at what point did our ancestors pick up this ability?

    --

    Donte Alistair Anderson Roberts - hi son!
    Karma: Chameleon

    1. Re:Wrong questions? by vadim_t · · Score: 1

      For your first question, not just us. Crows have demonstrated the ability to bend a piece of wire to make a hook from it, and then use it as a hook. Also, according to another slashdot poster can figure out dragging frozen food under an idling car's tail pipe.

    2. Re:Wrong questions? by maroberts · · Score: 1

      I didn't expect zero to be the answer to the first part of the question; I'd expect some birds and primates to be positives.

      --

      Donte Alistair Anderson Roberts - hi son!
      Karma: Chameleon

  16. Did the author sleep through Anthro 101? by Theatetus · · Score: 4, Informative

    Even non-hominids use implements like rocks and sticks. Tools are specifically fabricated or altered: what's important about tools is not that they are used but that they are made. Unless we find the rocks they used and see whether they were flaked by the hominids or just found already sharp, we can't call these "tools".

    --
    All's true that is mistrusted
    1. Re:Did the author sleep through Anthro 101? by WinstonWolfIT · · Score: 0

      I'm guessing you meant Anthro 1, because 101 signifies an upper division course. It's like a quantum leap being interpreted as the largest possible advance when it actually means the smallest possible.

    2. Re:Did the author sleep through Anthro 101? by Theatetus · · Score: 1

      We clearly went to different schools. In my case, EE 101 was a freshman survey course introducing students to engineering. And, yes, the "quantum leap" thing bugs the hell out of me too. That and dismissing doomsayers as "Cassandras".

      --
      All's true that is mistrusted
    3. Re:Did the author sleep through Anthro 101? by maxume · · Score: 1

      Must vary. I went to a fairly decent public university in the U.S. and freshman courses were all 100, 101, etc.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    4. Re:Did the author sleep through Anthro 101? by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      I always assumed "quantum leap" meant a distinct, significant jump as opposed to referring to the size per se. Next time I hear it used I'll have to ask what they mean.

      And as the others say, in the U.S., colleges typically reserve 1xx for the intro courses.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    5. Re:Did the author sleep through Anthro 101? by khallow · · Score: 1

      and dismissing doomsayers as "Cassandras".

      I don't see why. It's a neatly self-fulfilling act. We should all aspire to such monumental self-consistency in our foolishness. As an aside here, Cassandra's prophecies (concerning the fall of Troy) were accurate, but nobody believed them because they didn't want to. So when you call someone a "Cassandra", it doesn't reflect well on you.

    6. Re:Did the author sleep through Anthro 101? by Theatetus · · Score: 1

      Right, that was my point. I read an article where a commentator said "We have a lot of Cassandras running around predicting doom, but nothing's happened yet." Of course (and maybe this was your point about self-consistent foolishness), this was about the financial system just before the collapse in 2008, so in a way the guy was vindicated in calling them Cassandras. It's just not what he meant.

      --
      All's true that is mistrusted
    7. Re:Did the author sleep through Anthro 101? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm guessing you meant Anthro 1, because 101 signifies an upper division course. It's like a quantum leap being interpreted as the largest possible advance when it actually means the smallest possible.

      A quantum leap isn't the "largest possible advance" it's a sudden advance with no intermediate steps leading up to it. Dictionaries can be useful reading some times.

    8. Re:Did the author sleep through Anthro 101? by LongearedBat · · Score: 1

      Are humans the only ones who make tools for making tools?

      It's one think to use an implement.
      Its another thing to fashion and then use a tool.
      It's a third thing to fashion and then use a tool for the purpose of making another tool.

      How many other types of animals have reached that third stage?

    9. Re:Did the author sleep through Anthro 101? by neminem · · Score: 1

      I'm a bit late to this party, but I agree with you there: the point of the "quantum leap" metaphor is that, rather than some particular technology progressing continuously from less advanced to more, it's possible to identify a moment in which the technology's "advancedness" jumps suddenly (and discretely) from a lower state to a higher one. The metaphor makes perfect sense when thought of like that, as far as I'm concerned.

  17. Humans existed 800,000 years ago? by elucido · · Score: 1

    I was under the impression that we were maybe 300,000-400,000 years old as a species. How do they go back 800,000 to millions of years?

    1. Re:Humans existed 800,000 years ago? by dingen · · Score: 3, Informative

      Homo Sapiens are around for about 500,000 years, but what they're talking about in this article are our ancestors of human-like primates, of which some species are tens of millions of years old.

      --
      Pretty good is actually pretty bad.
    2. Re:Humans existed 800,000 years ago? by transporter_ii · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Off Amazon, order a book called the Hidden History of the Human Race (The Condensed Edition of Forbidden Archeology) . They have been discovering tool marks on bones older than they should be (think dinosaur) for many, many years . Some people even lost their jobs over it. Why? It seems that before Darwin, they went by the evidence and didn't need to make anything "fit" a timeline. After Darwin was firmly rooted, evidence was covered up, because it didn't fit the timeline. Some people who stood by their work, were just fired or blacklisted. There is case after case in the book.

      Now it seems that technology has made it hard to cover up. That's good.

      --
      Doctors destroy health, lawyers destroy justice, universities destroy knowledge, religion destroys spirituality
    3. Re:Humans existed 800,000 years ago? by Mindcontrolled · · Score: 2, Insightful

      sharpens Occam's Razor

      Or, perhaps, they misinterpreted toothmarks left by serrated predator teeth as toolmarks, chose to stick with their hypothesis in the light of an overwhelming amount of evidence to the contrary, thereby planting themselves firmly in the crackpot camp, and THEN lost their jobs?

      --
      Ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
    4. Re:Humans existed 800,000 years ago? by tarpitcod · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The age that humans essentially similar to ourselves walked this planet is constantly pushed back. We now discover tool use nearly a million years earlier than previously thought. Yet for some it takes real temerity to suggest that possibly significant civilizations may have existed earlier in history. The best places to look would actually be in high orbit, the Moon or the Lagrange points between the Sun and Earth. The Moon is particularly good, due to lack of weather (We saw how the dust storms affected the Mars rovers!) If we were all (99%) killed by a viral epidemic next year and civilization fell, it would be extremely hard to find significant traces of us just 30K years later. I still think that survivors, even if they fell back to 'bash things with stones' tool use might re-achieve our level of civilization. Likewise, since I'll give future humans that chance, I'd entertain that maybe we aren't the first who had a significant globe-spanning civilization and something went wrong. Either of these possibilities really makes the argument that Hawking has been espousing much stronger. If we aren't the only civilization then we are rare. If we aren't then civilizations must rise and fall fairly frequently. Either way we need to get humanity established elsewhere, and someone should be thinking hard about what to send back to earth /leave here to help the lower level of civilization re-climb the ladder.

    5. Re:Humans existed 800,000 years ago? by MightyYar · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Concluding that a mark on a dinosaur bone was from butchering would be suspect without evidence of the tools themselves in the same strata, would it not?

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    6. Re:Humans existed 800,000 years ago? by transporter_ii · · Score: 1

      They had experts in other fields examine the bones and concluded they were tool marks.

      The author makes few claims himself, it is all testimony from real scientist. That's one of the things that impressed me about the book.

      I see truth that doesn't fit gets modded down on /. as well. :)

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    7. Re:Humans existed 800,000 years ago? by TapeCutter · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Is it just my imagination or has there been a sharp increase over the last decade in the number of people willing to swallow anything that comes in the form of an anti-science conspiracy theory.

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    8. Re:Humans existed 800,000 years ago? by tarpitcod · · Score: 1

      Thinking that maybe other humanoids had a prior civilization, and we aren't unique is hardly anti-science. It's accepting the idea that if someone with essentially similar brain capacity and physical abilities may be able to climb the tool use ladder. I will grant you that it's like a conspiracy theory, but so was the theory that the earth orbited the sun a few hundred yeas ago.

    9. Re:Humans existed 800,000 years ago? by chichilalescu · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "real scientist"? I know them. they're the guys with intelligent design and "LHC is gonna kill us all", right?

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    10. Re:Humans existed 800,000 years ago? by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      They had experts in other fields examine the bones and concluded they were tool marks.

      Perhaps those experts need to be examined by experts? Concluding that something was made by a tool that has not been shown to exist until 100 million years or so up the strata is a bit of a stretch. I'd bet other "experts" would conclude that the same bone had been scraped against rocks when stepped on, etc.

      Or was the author implying that there was a tool-using dinosaur? Seems like a stretch, but there are tool-wielding birds... so anything is possible.

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    11. Re:Humans existed 800,000 years ago? by chris+mazuc · · Score: 4, Informative

      Off Amazon, order a book called the Hidden History of the Human Race (The Condensed Edition of Forbidden Archeology)

      No, please don't.

      The Hidden History of the Human Race is a frustrating book. The motivation of the authors, "members of the Bhaktivedanta Institute, a branch of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness" (p. xix), is to find support in the data of paleoanthropology and archaeology for the Vedic scriptures of India. Their methods are borrowed from fundamentalist Christian creationists (whom they assiduously avoid citing). They catalog odd "facts" which appear to conflict with the modern scientific understanding of human evolution and they take statements from the work of conventional scholars and cite them out of context to support some bizarre assertion which the original author would almost certainly not have advocated. Cremo and Thompson regard their collection of dubious facts as "anomalies" that the current paradigm of paleoanthropology cannot explain. Sadly, they offer no alternative paradigm which might accommodate both the existing data and the so-called anomalies they present; although they do indicate that a second volume is planned which will relate their "extensive research results" to their "Vedic source material" (p. xix). Kuhn noted that "To reject one paradigm without simultaneously substituting another is to reject science itself" (1970, p. 79); and that is precisely what Cremo and Thompson do. They claim that "mechanistic science" is a "militant ideology, skillfully promoted by the combined effort of scientists, educators, and wealthy industrialists, with a view towards establishing worldwide intellectual dominance" (p. 196).

      [ ... ]

      Cremo and Thompson's claim that anatomically modern Homo sapiens sapiens have been around for hundreds of millions of years is an outrageous notion. Accepting that there is a place in science for seemingly outrageous hypotheses (cf. Davis, 1926) there is no justification for the sort of sloppy rehashing of canards, hoaxes, red herrings, half-truths and fantasies Cremo and Thompson offer in the service of a religious ideology. Readers who are interested in a more credible presentation of the overwhelming evidence for human evolution should consult Ian Tattersall's wonderful recent book The Fossil Trail: how we know what we think we know about human evolution.

      --
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    12. Re:Humans existed 800,000 years ago? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why would I want to read a book written by a pair of unqualified cranks pushing a radical Vedic creationist agenda using techniques cribbed from crazy Christian creationists? To lessen the loss of time read talkorigins' review. Or look up one of the authors Michael A. Cremo on his own website and note he doesn't even claim a bachelor's degree in anything or demonstrate of any kind of formal training in archaeology or related discipline. He does claim to be a "research associate in history of archaeology" whatever that is. He also proudly notes his membership in the World Archaeological Congress since 1993 which sounds pretty cool until you go to their website and find that anybody can join for as little as $20 a year. His membership in the European Association of Archaeologists is similar. This is not to disparage either organization, simply to note that membership doesn't require any actual expertise. Mr. Cremo is simply doing what he can to inflate his stature without, as is typical for cranks, doing the actual work required to become proficient in the field. Coauthor Dr. Richard L. Thompson earned a Ph.D. in mathematics, which is distant from archaeology to say the least. This is also typical of cranks, having some legitimate expertise in one field and illegitimately attempting to claim expertise over an utterly unrelated field.

      Damn it now I've spent 15 minutes more than the zero seconds this bullshit deserved.

    13. Re:Humans existed 800,000 years ago? by flaming+error · · Score: 1

      > we need to get humanity established elsewhere
      Why "need"? In what way would the extinction of homo sapiens sapiens hurt the universe? Or the Earth? Or dead humans?

      If mankind were gone, who but our surviving pets would miss us?

    14. Re:Humans existed 800,000 years ago? by Quirkz · · Score: 1

      Thank you, both for a good analysis of what sounded like a very unlikely theory, and also possibly the recommendation for a book that sounds like something I've been looking for.

    15. Re:Humans existed 800,000 years ago? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The cows ? After all, how would they eat!

    16. Re:Humans existed 800,000 years ago? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'd have to recommend a different book: "Evolution: What the Fossils Say and Why it Matters" by Donald R. Prothero. It's been favorably reviewed by the NCSE. It's more recent (2009 vs 1995) and is broader in scope, starting back before the Cambrian Explosion (explaining why it wasn't an explosion) and going up through more recent events like hominid evolution. He also is not afraid to tell it like it is about the creationists and associated cranks.

    17. Re:Humans existed 800,000 years ago? by TapeCutter · · Score: 1

      "Thinking that maybe other humanoids had a prior civilization, and we aren't unique is hardly anti-science."

      Of course not, that is just wild speculation.

      The part of your OP that is a conspiracy theory is; "Some people even lost their jobs over it. Why? It seems that before Darwin, they went by the evidence and didn't need to make anything "fit" a timeline. After Darwin was firmly rooted, evidence was covered up, because it didn't fit the timeline. Some people who stood by their work, were just fired or blacklisted. There is case after case in the book."

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    18. Re:Humans existed 800,000 years ago? by evilviper · · Score: 1

      Is it just my imagination or has there been a sharp increase over the last decade in the number of people willing to swallow anything that comes in the form of an anti-science conspiracy theory.

      It's a by-product of downfall of the mainstream news media. It used to be that broadcasters would weed out lies and misinformation as much as possible. These days, nonsense from two moron crackpots arguing about whether the earth is flat or square constitutes "objective reporting".

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    19. Re:Humans existed 800,000 years ago? by Quirkz · · Score: 1

      I'll add that one to the list, too. Thanks!

  18. Maybe if they were more honest by elucido · · Score: 1

    We wouldn't have so many people who don't believe in evolution. When they try to group all these different human like species together, it makes evolution seem completely unscientific. Homosapiens are the only human species. Those other species are different species just like there are different species of fish, cats, and just like humans aren't rodents even though we share something like 95% of our genes with them.

    1. Re:Maybe if they were more honest by m.ducharme · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Maybe they're not being dishonest; maybe they're being mindful of the fact that setting up precise boundaries between these different species is not as simple as you think. What precisely makes for a different species? The human-like species would have been very closely related genetically, and in some cases may have been able to interbreed naturally. So are they different species, or sub-species of the same species? Don't be fooled by the simple nomenclature system into thinking that species taxonomy is a simple thing.

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    2. Re:Maybe if they were more honest by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Homosapiens are the only human species. Those other species are different species

      So you're implying god was a hacker?

      "I wonder what happends if I pull this strain of DNA, cut out this.. add some of this.. boot it up with some obscure distro.. Oh, that is NICE. He now can hold a cute tool and thinks it's intelligence. Hah, now I'm bored."

    3. Re:Maybe if they were more honest by elucido · · Score: 1

      Maybe they're not being dishonest; maybe they're being mindful of the fact that setting up precise boundaries between these different species is not as simple as you think. What precisely makes for a different species? The human-like species would have been very closely related genetically, and in some cases may have been able to interbreed naturally. So are they different species, or sub-species of the same species? Don't be fooled by the simple nomenclature system into thinking that species taxonomy is a simple thing.

      Either they are homosapiens or they aren't human. Those other species are human like, but the only human like species we might have been able to mate with was neanderthal. all those other species we find no evidence of crossbreeding and mating.

  19. GM = General Mastodon by SeaFox · · Score: 1, Funny

    ...cut marks on the bones of an impala-sized creature...

    Is that supposed to be our car analogy for this article?

  20. Pushed back again? by OglinTatas · · Score: 5, Funny

    Tool use by humans pushed back again, and by 800,000 years? I can't wait that long. I have to fix my brakes this weekend.

    1. Re:Pushed back again? by maxume · · Score: 1

      The easy solution is to think of yourself as a rather clever dog.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
  21. The Inspiration by lseltzer · · Score: 1

    This is just after the appearance of the monolith, right?

  22. So... by ITBurnout · · Score: 1

    Those retard monkey fish squirrels were not so retarded after all?

  23. so? monkeys use tools, too. by happyjack27 · · Score: 1

    monkeys have been observed learning to use tools to do thinks like crack open coconuts. it's rather trivial. saying tool use in primates has been pushed back 800,000 years is like saying jumping out of the water in dolphins has been pushed back 800,000 years.

    1. Re:so? monkeys use tools, too. by RabbitWho · · Score: 1

      Monkeys? Crows use tools. They can bend wire into the shape of a hook to get things out of a narrow space. Without being taught. Tool use is no big deal. http://www.ted.com/talks/joshua_klein_on_the_intelligence_of_crows.html

  24. Hopefully this puts an end to the vegan propoganda by shaitand · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The earliest known tool use was to carve up a tasty critter. Hopefully this puts an end to the myth that the natural diet for humans is vegetarian.

    By all means make your personal choice for whatever reasons. Just don't pretend its the rest of us who are acting in a manner contrary to our nature.

  25. Devolving by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I can do both - you poor Eloi are simply devolving.

  26. brain size very small at that time by peter303 · · Score: 1

    The early hominoids walked and perhaps ran like moderns. But their head remained small for a couple million years until homo erectus. What stimulated increased brain size? Some people the brain acts like radiator to dissipate the heat of running in the hot savanna.

  27. Was it grep? by toxonix · · Score: 1

    I'd probably die of starvation without grep. Awk and sed must have come along later.

  28. ...to allow conciseness to emerge.... by mevets · · Score: 1

    Its a bit long of a post to hope for that....
    Somewhat, concisely, "evolution with direction" is little more than creationism in wolfs clothing. It assumes there is a grand goal, to which evolution is the mechanism of achieving.

  29. No such thing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There's no such thing guys, the earth is 10KYears old. I was there, I saw it all.

  30. Re:Hopefully this puts an end to the vegan propoga by MozeeToby · · Score: 2, Informative

    I'd think the existence of canine and incisor teeth in humans would be enough to convince any reasonable person that were are evolved to be omnivorous.

  31. The good old days... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Ah, the good old days, when calling out to somebody "You tool!" had immediate and all too physical connotations.

    Now, git off my dinosaur pasture!

  32. Since non-primates may use tools too, by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    and many species have become extinct in the course of thousands of millennia past,
    I wonder:
    Is it not entirely possible that the tools the use of which evidence has been found of
    were from a species that is not an ancestor of modern humans?

    1. Re:Since non-primates may use tools too, by Psaakyrn · · Score: 1

      Yeah, and then us humans just stole the technology, and killed them because we're bastards.

  33. No.mondern humans around for only about 50,000 yrs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Actually modern Homo Sapiens are only believed to be around for about 50,000 years....there were multiple species of human like animals existing 500,000 years ago but they were all significantly different from us in terms of brain size and facial structure (think archaic looking cave man)

  34. Chef salad by gillbates · · Score: 1
    1. Egg salad has eggs.
    2. Potato salad has potatoes.
    3. Chef salad has...

    It's normal for *some kinds* of salad to have eyes, you know.

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  35. Not surprising by cavebison · · Score: 1

    Since even birds do it.

    Maybe bees do it, and even educated fleas do it.

  36. If this info is wrong, you should edit Wikipedia by dingen · · Score: 1

    Modern humans are called "Homo Sapiens Sapiens". The oldest "modern human" found are about 200,000 years old (according to Wikipedia).

    The entire branch of homo sapiens however, including species no longer around today, is thought to be about 500,000 years old (also according to Wikipedia).

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  37. Lucy by Muad'Dave · · Score: 1

    It sounds like Lucy (Australopithecus afarensis) has some 'splaining to do.

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  38. Re:Hopefully this puts an end to the vegan propoga by sisinka · · Score: 1

    I'd think the existence of canine and incisor teeth in humans would be enough to convince any reasonable person that were are evolved to be omnivorous.

    Carefully with those claws of yours, you could scratch your keyboard ;-)

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  39. Re:Hopefully this puts an end to the vegan propoga by sisinka · · Score: 1

    The earliest known tool use was to carve up a tasty critter. Hopefully this puts an end to the myth that the natural diet for humans is vegetarian.

    It's not so easy to define 'natural' as it seems. We are talking about a 'tool' use here.
    For example, some clever crows in Japan use traffic to crack hard nuts. Chimps use 'tools' to kill each other. (Not that killing each other is not natural, but does natural mean OK?)
    I am sorry to bother with my vegan propaganda, but when I think about this stuff, more and more interesting ethical questions appear.

    For the record, I've already fallen victim to vegan propaganda.

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  40. Re:Hopefully this puts an end to the vegan propoga by shaitand · · Score: 1

    "It's not so easy to define 'natural' as it seems."

    Natural is pretty easy to define. Natural is anything that is not the result of human action (nothing about a human is 'natural' unless it is inborn). Chimp (and other non-human) use of tools is natural. Human activity is unnatural even if we are doing it naked and with our bare hands.

    The reason humans first tools were to carve up critters is that we evolved to eat both plants and animals. Meat eating is inborn in humans and therefore is natural. Vegetarianism is not inborn and therefore is unnatural.

    My complaint wasn't/isn't with vegetarianism or vegans, only with the false claim that early man was vegetarian and that vegetarian is the natural and healthy diet of the man animal. A healthy and balanced diet is fairly effortless when it includes meat since meat is a complete protein. A healthy vegetarian diet is possible but requires planning, wide access to diverse foods, and fair amount of research. It is safe to say that early humans had none of the above. Suggesting anything else IS propaganda.

    That said I'm not vegan. I understand the thinking that leads down that road. I just can't bring myself to draw a line regarding what lifeforms are fair game and what are not. The life of a cow is no more sacred to me than that of an apple or the bacteria killed by using a sanitizing wipe on a shopping cart handle. For that matter my only objection to cannibalism is that I believe it would facilitate the spread of disease.

  41. Please don't apologize... by robsku · · Score: 1

    ...because your post was very fun and entertaining in the middle of all this seriousness (and/or BS) :)

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