Of course I have my CCW, as any upstanding, responsible, and capable citizen should. It's one of the things I love about Nevada, we still respect the 2nd Ammendment.
In any case, Nevada is actually an Open Carry state. Meaning, even without a CCW, as long as you carry openly in a holster (IOW, do not meet the criteria to be considered concealed), you are legal. No CCW needed. That doesn't mean someone can't ask you to leave their premises, but that's a different store entirely. That's what your CCW is for.:)
It's so exhilarating being so close to the PR of Commufornia, and still having my Civil Liberties intact. They may have the literal 'greener grass', but we have the more imporant metaphorical kind.
Glad to see someone standing up to these thugs. I remember a few years ago, the ISP that I admin'd hosted the connection for http://www.defcon.org/. We had someone start a Smurf attack from the Con, targetting our inbound T3's. We were able to track it down, and actually snatch him out of his seat right there at the con. He promptly apologized (I think, he only spoke german, IIRC). The look on his face was priceless. Oh, did I mentioned that me, and everyone else at the company carry Glock 19's? Yeah, we didn't have any more problems for the rest of the con. Everyone was on their best behaviour. A bunch of fine, upstanding individuals.:)
I was there in the front row at the awards ceremony at DC12. These kids remind me of myself just a few years ago when I just picked up and moved to Vegas. Wasn't even sure if I had enough money for gas (good thing I was driving a Festiva @~45mpg). I guess this is a good case for those who say that all kids today are slackers.
For those who do not know, this contest was held in (and around) Vegas, when it was 110+ outside. These guys were dragging equipment up the side of a mountain to get this link. For those who would give these kids sh**, try dragging a 10ft dish(3.048 meters for you metric weenies) several hundred feet up a mountain, and then getting them aligned 55 miles apart, all in 110+f(43c) weather. There was no big 4x4's, they drove dads busted-a** minivan from Ohio for this. Sure, NASA could probably do better, but come'on, this was an amateur thing, and just something cool to do. No big prizes (they won like a couple-hundred bucks in Best Buy gift certs, and some gear).
If I had a had on, it would be off to these kids for some ingenuity and determination.
and I think they have a right to monitor what is leaving their store
...if it belongs to them. In this case, it belonged to me, not them, therefore they have no claim to it.
The mentality that says, "I'm insulted if I have to participate in security screening" bugs the crap out of me.
And the mentality that says "Baa-aa-aa" bugs the crap out of me. Nonetheless, I respect your choice to be apathetic in regards to your own rights. That's the beauty of rights. But remember:
I am very nice. Like I said in my original message, "politely". Regardless of my feelings for the store's policies, I recognize that the employees are at the mercy of their boss. I also realize that they can choose that their job sucks enough to find a new one. In any case, I always treat the employees the way I expect to be treated. Now if they lose their cool, that is a different story. Just because I politely refuse to be searched by default, doesn't mean I am one of those nightmare PITA customers. I am a business owner myself, I understand both sides. I just don't believe in waiving my 4th ammendment rights trivially.
even though all stores have the right to search all bags in the store anyway
Uhh, cite legal reference or precedent.
Nevada Revised Statutes
3. Any merchant who has reason to believe that merchandise has been wrongfully taken by a person and that he can recover the merchandise by taking the person into custody and detaining him may, for the purpose of attempting to effect such recovery or for the purpose of informing a peace officer of the circumstances of such detention, take the person into custody and detain him, on the premises, in a reasonable manner and for a reasonable length of time. A merchant is presumed to have reason to believe that merchandise has been wrongfully taken by a person and that he can recover the merchandise by taking the person into custody and detaining him if the merchant observed the person concealing merchandise while on the permises. Such taking into custody and detention by a merchant does not render the merchant criminally or civilly liable for false arrest, false imprisonment, slander or unlawful detention unless the taking into custody and detention are unreasonable under all the circumstances.
In the state of Nevada, the merchant does NOT have a right to search anything, regardless of any posted policy.
I am not a nitpicky type, really I'm not. But there are certain things I won't sit still for, and presuming that I am a shoplifter by default is one of them. What's worse, is that people like you are the ones that make it so they can get away with it.
They'll only summon the police anyway
I have been refusing receipt checkpoints for years. This is the first time the police have been called. I am not a thug, nor do I look like one. I am not rude, or impolite in any way. Normally, when I refuse, the employee says "Ok, thank you, have a nice day". Fry's has handled me exceptionally well in this regard. Maybe I've been lucky, but they have always been respectful. I continue to patronize them, even though they are all the way across town.
This is about where we are right now. They have dicked around since 11/03 about this, not showing up for court, etc. This next court date later this month will (hopefully) be the end of it, one way or another.
I didn't want to go the route of the local news outlets expect as a last resort. I didn't want to be one of those people that goes running off to channel X every time they don't get their way. We'll see!
Do you not understand why your receipt was being checked?
Indeed I do. But it had nothing to do with the day. They do this every day.
If they wanted a less intrusive way of verifying that I had paid for said item (since it was too large for a bag), they could do as other stores do, and put a sticker on the outside indicating "PAID". I completely respect that method of loss prevention. It's the treating everyone suspect by default that I have a problem with.
I am ok with this. I think this is a reasonable comprimise between the rights of the consumer, and the security of the store. As long as it doesn't go off with every customer.:)
Nope, not interested in suing anybody, at least not without real good reason. I'm not just some arrogant prick, who decides to make a battle out of everything. I believe in picking your battles, and for me, this is one of them. It may seem trivial to some, but for me, it is standing up and saying "NO!".
I understand the 'common good' argument, really I do. This is how I manage to keep my tongue behind my teeth at the airport, every time I see a sign that says to leave my luggage unlocked. It's a safety thing.
The 'common good' argument doesn't hold water, IMO, in the case of retail establishments. There are other, less offensive/intrusive ways to maintain an acceptable level of security, without treating every customer like a suspect. I know, I know, the privacy issues with persistent RFID. I agree. But the tag inside the box that I can dispose of when I get it home, _that_ I can handle. That is a non-intrusive method.
Remember, it is NOT "Guilty until proven Innocent".
Precisely. People think that just because a sign is posted, you forgo all of your normal rights. I don't care if they post a big freakin sign at the front door, if it isn't law, I don't have to obey it. If they insist on searching me, and I refuse, the most they can do is:
Detain me for police, in which case they had better be right about it
Read me the trespass warning, which they are entirely within their rights to do. This does not mean that a blanket sign that says "You are trespassing if you do not agree to the following.."
Too many people have become sheep, and just accept that their rights get trampled on.
Precisely my point. I understand their reasons for doing it, but that doesn't make it ok. Making it a policy to assume every customer is a shoplifter unless they prove otherwise is just wrong.
I've spent my entire life building a reputation of integrity and loyalty
Bingo. THis is why it is worth my time and money to defeat this in court. I came from a family of shady characters. I am the upstanding citizen, and contributing member of society that my father never was. I take pride in that. I actually don't mind paying my taxes (within reason, of course). I feel that it gives me a small percentage of say in what goes on in this world. I'm rambling...
Boy, adolf hits it right on the head. This is exactly my point. Sure, it only takes a few seconds, just like it only takes a few seconds to give a DNA sample, to "rule you out" because you happen to be a person of the wrong color. No, I am not a person of color, but it is incidents like this that make me understand their gripe.
Sams/Costco are different, as they are membership based, and I agreed to it when I signed up. But as far as BB goes, I own that product the moment I pay for it, and I owe them absolutely nothing. I know this sounds like an a**hole way to be, but sometimes you;ve gotta stand up for your rights, and I take the 4th ammendment very seriously.
Don't even get me started about leaving my luggage unlocked at the airport.:)
Ok, since this is a Best Buy Bashfest, I'll spill my story (the short version).
Went into BB the day after Thanksgiving '03 to buy a doorbuster DVD for $20. 6am, got in, got the player, and was headed out. Guy at the door stops me, insists on seeing my receipt. I have always refused such requests (politely), just on principle (Don't treat your customers like shoplifters by default). Years ago, when I worked at Computer City, I was advised by the manager that while we could request to see receipts at door checkpoints, we had no entitlement to it. If someone refused, we had to make an instant decision if we really thought that they were a risk, and detain them for the police. He said if we detained, we better be right! Anyway, after politely refusing to show my receipt, I paused to dispose of my now-empty coffee cup in a nearby can, and when I look up, here's this guy again, now just inches from my face, and he has his hands on my package (the DVD, pervs!). I immediately requested the manager, my full intention being to show my receipt to the manager, and while we were both inconvenienced, to explain to her how offensive the checkpoint policy was. As soon as she approached me, she advised a nearby employee to call the police. I then released my grip on the package to retreive my receipt from my back pocket, when the employee decided he was going to snatch the box out of my hands. Well, since he didn't meet the same amount of resistance as he expected, his motion toward me was very exaggerated, and (this sounds funny, but just visualize it) in a downward motion, his head struck my hand. THey took my DVD player, and returned it to my credit card for me. (where I come from, we call that stealin'!). When the police arrived, I was charged with Battery. The police refused my request to review the Surveillance tapes, and just said to "tell it to the judge". I am still battling this thing, but I intend to win. The court offered me a simple $100 fine to plead guilty, but I have opted to pay the several thousand in attorney's fees to defend my good name (and to ensure that the status of my CCW permit is not affected). After several hearings where Best Buy has failed to provide the videotape that would corroborate my story, they have been threatened with Contempt of Court. Oh, and it is in the police report that the mgr on duty stated that there _was_ video coverage of the area in which the incident happened. Lastly, It should be noted that what started the whole thing was an accusation of shoplifting, but when they found that they were mistaken, they fabricated the battery story just to show me who was boss. If anybody has any similar horror stories regarding the LV locations of BB, I'd love to hear them.
Slashdot Mirror
Of course I have my CCW, as any upstanding, responsible, and capable citizen should. It's one of the things I love about Nevada, we still respect the 2nd Ammendment.
:)
In any case, Nevada is actually an Open Carry state. Meaning, even without a CCW, as long as you carry openly in a holster (IOW, do not meet the criteria to be considered concealed), you are legal. No CCW needed. That doesn't mean someone can't ask you to leave their premises, but that's a different store entirely. That's what your CCW is for.
It's so exhilarating being so close to the PR of Commufornia, and still having my Civil Liberties intact. They may have the literal 'greener grass', but we have the more imporant metaphorical kind.
Glad to see someone standing up to these thugs. I remember a few years ago, the ISP that I admin'd hosted the connection for http://www.defcon.org/. We had someone start a Smurf attack from the Con, targetting our inbound T3's. We were able to track it down, and actually snatch him out of his seat right there at the con. He promptly apologized (I think, he only spoke german, IIRC). The look on his face was priceless. Oh, did I mentioned that me, and everyone else at the company carry Glock 19's? Yeah, we didn't have any more problems for the rest of the con. Everyone was on their best behaviour. A bunch of fine, upstanding individuals. :)
I was in the second row, middle block 3rd seat in from speakers left.
If your handle is accurate, I seem to recall you spent alot of time onstage yourself..?
DOH!!
If I had a haT on, it would be off to these kids for some ingenuity and determination.
I was there in the front row at the awards ceremony at DC12. These kids remind me of myself just a few years ago when I just picked up and moved to Vegas. Wasn't even sure if I had enough money for gas (good thing I was driving a Festiva @~45mpg). I guess this is a good case for those who say that all kids today are slackers.
For those who do not know, this contest was held in (and around) Vegas, when it was 110+ outside. These guys were dragging equipment up the side of a mountain to get this link. For those who would give these kids sh**, try dragging a 10ft dish(3.048 meters for you metric weenies) several hundred feet up a mountain, and then getting them aligned 55 miles apart, all in 110+f(43c) weather. There was no big 4x4's, they drove dads busted-a** minivan from Ohio for this. Sure, NASA could probably do better, but come'on, this was an amateur thing, and just something cool to do. No big prizes (they won like a couple-hundred bucks in Best Buy gift certs, and some gear).
If I had a had on, it would be off to these kids for some ingenuity and determination.
and I think they have a right to monitor what is leaving their store
...if it belongs to them. In this case, it belonged to me, not them, therefore they have no claim to it.
The mentality that says, "I'm insulted if I have to participate in security screening" bugs the crap out of me.
And the mentality that says "Baa-aa-aa" bugs the crap out of me. Nonetheless, I respect your choice to be apathetic in regards to your own rights. That's the beauty of rights. But remember:
Use 'em or lose 'em
even though all stores have the right to search all bags in the store anyway
Uhh, cite legal reference or precedent.
In the state of Nevada, the merchant does NOT have a right to search anything, regardless of any posted policy.
I am not a nitpicky type, really I'm not. But there are certain things I won't sit still for, and presuming that I am a shoplifter by default is one of them. What's worse, is that people like you are the ones that make it so they can get away with it.
They'll only summon the police anyway
I have been refusing receipt checkpoints for years. This is the first time the police have been called. I am not a thug, nor do I look like one. I am not rude, or impolite in any way. Normally, when I refuse, the employee says "Ok, thank you, have a nice day". Fry's has handled me exceptionally well in this regard. Maybe I've been lucky, but they have always been respectful. I continue to patronize them, even though they are all the way across town.
This is about where we are right now. They have dicked around since 11/03 about this, not showing up for court, etc. This next court date later this month will (hopefully) be the end of it, one way or another.
I didn't want to go the route of the local news outlets expect as a last resort. I didn't want to be one of those people that goes running off to channel X every time they don't get their way. We'll see!
If they wanted a less intrusive way of verifying that I had paid for said item (since it was too large for a bag), they could do as other stores do, and put a sticker on the outside indicating "PAID". I completely respect that method of loss prevention. It's the treating everyone suspect by default that I have a problem with.
I am ok with this. I think this is a reasonable comprimise between the rights of the consumer, and the security of the store. As long as it doesn't go off with every customer. :)
Nope, not interested in suing anybody, at least not without real good reason. I'm not just some arrogant prick, who decides to make a battle out of everything. I believe in picking your battles, and for me, this is one of them. It may seem trivial to some, but for me, it is standing up and saying "NO!".
I understand the 'common good' argument, really I do. This is how I manage to keep my tongue behind my teeth at the airport, every time I see a sign that says to leave my luggage unlocked. It's a safety thing.
The 'common good' argument doesn't hold water, IMO, in the case of retail establishments. There are other, less offensive/intrusive ways to maintain an acceptable level of security, without treating every customer like a suspect. I know, I know, the privacy issues with persistent RFID. I agree. But the tag inside the box that I can dispose of when I get it home, _that_ I can handle. That is a non-intrusive method.
Remember, it is NOT "Guilty until proven Innocent".
- Detain me for police, in which case they had better be right about it
- Read me the trespass warning, which they are entirely within their rights to do. This does not mean that a blanket sign that says "You are trespassing if you do not agree to the following.."
Too many people have become sheep, and just accept that their rights get trampled on.Boy, adolf hits it right on the head. This is exactly my point. Sure, it only takes a few seconds, just like it only takes a few seconds to give a DNA sample, to "rule you out" because you happen to be a person of the wrong color. No, I am not a person of color, but it is incidents like this that make me understand their gripe. :)
Sams/Costco are different, as they are membership based, and I agreed to it when I signed up. But as far as BB goes, I own that product the moment I pay for it, and I owe them absolutely nothing. I know this sounds like an a**hole way to be, but sometimes you;ve gotta stand up for your rights, and I take the 4th ammendment very seriously.
Don't even get me started about leaving my luggage unlocked at the airport.
Ok, since this is a Best Buy Bashfest, I'll spill my story (the short version).
Went into BB the day after Thanksgiving '03 to buy a doorbuster DVD for $20. 6am, got in, got the player, and was headed out. Guy at the door stops me, insists on seeing my receipt. I have always refused such requests (politely), just on principle (Don't treat your customers like shoplifters by default). Years ago, when I worked at Computer City, I was advised by the manager that while we could request to see receipts at door checkpoints, we had no entitlement to it. If someone refused, we had to make an instant decision if we really thought that they were a risk, and detain them for the police. He said if we detained, we better be right! Anyway, after politely refusing to show my receipt, I paused to dispose of my now-empty coffee cup in a nearby can, and when I look up, here's this guy again, now just inches from my face, and he has his hands on my package (the DVD, pervs!). I immediately requested the manager, my full intention being to show my receipt to the manager, and while we were both inconvenienced, to explain to her how offensive the checkpoint policy was. As soon as she approached me, she advised a nearby employee to call the police. I then released my grip on the package to retreive my receipt from my back pocket, when the employee decided he was going to snatch the box out of my hands. Well, since he didn't meet the same amount of resistance as he expected, his motion toward me was very exaggerated, and (this sounds funny, but just visualize it) in a downward motion, his head struck my hand. THey took my DVD player, and returned it to my credit card for me. (where I come from, we call that stealin'!). When the police arrived, I was charged with Battery. The police refused my request to review the Surveillance tapes, and just said to "tell it to the judge". I am still battling this thing, but I intend to win. The court offered me a simple $100 fine to plead guilty, but I have opted to pay the several thousand in attorney's fees to defend my good name (and to ensure that the status of my CCW permit is not affected). After several hearings where Best Buy has failed to provide the videotape that would corroborate my story, they have been threatened with Contempt of Court. Oh, and it is in the police report that the mgr on duty stated that there _was_ video coverage of the area in which the incident happened.
Lastly, It should be noted that what started the whole thing was an accusation of shoplifting, but when they found that they were mistaken, they fabricated the battery story just to show me who was boss. If anybody has any similar horror stories regarding the LV locations of BB, I'd love to hear them.