How the fuck is that Marxist? A Marxist would turn those tools against the bosses, not against their fellow workers.
It isn't Marxist- but we're not living with a Marxist system. We have to deal with what we've been given- and what we've been given is an economic class warfare that has our so-called "fellow workers" in other nations teaming up with the bosses to deny health care and kill 18,000 Americans every freakin' year. That's WARFARE- and should be responed to as such.
The grandparent's point, however, was that ANY interferance in the free market was a bad thing, and that any industry will return without government interferance. The problem is, though, that the example he used (the auto industry) has had a good deal of government interferance over the last 20 years or so- and that's the ONLY reason why Japanese and German companies are opening plants here (to avoid the interferance).
And even Fords vs Toyotas today- they might be ASSEMBLED in America- but all the parts came from China. You don't have a choice what parts an American reseller like Dell, HP, or Ford chooses to include.
They may not compensate you by paying you more. But on a larg scale, the effect should be the same.
Bullshit, there's no incentive for the effect to be the same.
As companies become more efficient, goods will become cheaper, so your paycheck will buy more.
Why would goods become cheaper, when the money can be put to better use increasing the profit margin of investors?
Any investments you have in industries that become more efficient will reward you financially.
Who can afford to invest when your paycheck fails to cover basic standard of living?
As things become more efficient, there is more wealth to go around.
No there isn't- wealth just gets more concentrated at the top and the bottom has LESS to go around. You've bought the lies- now try for something that actually looks like truth.
Ooooh, I have a better idea. The world owes you man. You should just sit at home and we (the world) will send you a check, scratch that, direct deposit. Wouldn't that be nice ?
I didn't go to get a college degree so that my brain could be wasted- if you did, I'm sorry for you.
? Meanwhile you pointedly refuse to answer why you support
There's a 30 posts in 4 hours limit, you idiot.
See it really does puzzle me, why you are typing your anti-sourcing whine on a computer where every single part is outsourced (but of course you were not affected, it was just lower and lower-middle class people before, not like they matter, right ?)
My computer was assembled in America at least- I don't buy Great Wall White Boxen.
The WTO is an enemy to any patriotic American because it is effectively a world government that has the right to enact laws without congressional oversight. In other words, it's an unconstitutional set of treaties to begin with that is a con artist game for stealing money from ordinary people.
As for your 200 years of economic theory, I'm sure the economists will be singing a different tune once they realize that their number crunching and theory generating can be done at 1/10th the cost in India. As far as I'm concerned, we should outsource the economists.
Depends on your defintion of "success", I suppose. I don't find the idea of chasing a career across country appealing; my family and friends are here. I'd rather make less $$$ - or even change careers - and stay here. YMMV.
Me too- but for a young person who still has the choice between family and career, the best advice is to choose career while you still can. Once you're tied to family and friends and mortgage, you can't just dash off to India when the industry moves there.
Non-violent terrorism is the point- and only an idiot would run such a bot from their own home network. Unless we cause some severe damage to the outsouring cost model, we can expect our jobs to continue going overseas at a high rate of speed. If we can slow it down, just by 4 years or so, the baby boomers dying off will create new jobs here.
I buy American whenever I can- but most stuff isn't made in America anymore at all. Shirts, shoes, pants, underwear- you're wearing stuff that was made in sweatshops elsewhere, and you can't buy American in textiles at ANY rate you choose to pay anymore.
That's the whole point of moving on to the next obvious stage in the economic war (and it is a war, don't fool yourself).
Are there any American made computer parts anymore, anywhere? All the more reason to FORCE the manufacturers to come back to America I say. Personally, I drive a Ford, the CPUs in my computers are made by AMD and Intel, and the memory is Kingston. Those are all American companies, but unlike you, I don't assume that an American brand name means anything more than American Assembly. Manufacturing is ALL done elsewhere, and you have NO choice at all in the market today. I'd rather pay 5x as much and buy American- but let's face facts, the choice just ain't there no more.
1. Most people WORKING on computers didn't make the buying decisions- they were made elsewhere in the organization. 2. Certain things can't be gotten in the United States any more- though every microprocessor in my house is AMD or Intel (American companies), I'm sure they were all mass produced overseas. 3. I'm willing to admit I was one of the ones buying Japanese in the 1980s- though I now drive a Ford.
Are you per chance posting on a malyasian made keyboard, taiwanese motherboard, chinese/taiwanese made intel processor and korean/japanese lcd/crt ? Just curious....
Exactly my point- if we make NOTHING in America that there isn't a quota and tarriffs on, how do we expect to keep people in America working and thus, consuming?
As a matter of fact, everything I work on currently is American branded- but I'm sure it's all foreign manufacture.
Its not just like America except you can rent an apartmentfor $10 a day
Where in hell can you do that in America? Cheapest I can find is $13/day. And if you earned what a worker in China does, $3.84/day, which is what you're really recommending that Americans earn, how would you afford a $10/day apparment?
Can you explain more- nothing you've said has removed my fear, since the United States has been negative on exports for 10 years now, and overall has not been positive on exports vs imports for 40 years.
Don't assume that the house prices will magically turn around: unless something happens to bring back the demand, like lots of new jobs, prices won't rise fast or soon. Lots of new jobs would solve your problem anyway, wouldn't it?
Very quickly. But the other thing is, now that I'm working again, I am *slowly* and with lots of cheap non-nutritious food for dinners, paying down the loan faster than minimums. While they'd charge me the pre-pay penalty for paying off completely, I can accelerate the loan somewhat. Three years form now I'll be better off- with luck- and then I can make the choice. At least I'm no longer going deeper in debt, for the most part- just losing more assets (whenever I get low, I sell off on e-bay). At some point, of course, the assets will run out- but at this point I'm surviving (barely).
Re:Whine, whine, whine (Score:1)
by RealAlaskan (576404) on Monday December 27, @07:03PM (#11195621)
(http://geocities.com/nelstomlinson)
Getting upside down on a car is bad. Upside down on a house loan is way worse, because it's so much bigger.
What you're doing is why house prices are sticky downwards: when demand falls off, folks just hang onto their houses, and it can take years for the market to clear.
Don't assume that the house prices will magically turn around: unless something happens to bring back the demand, like lots of new jobs, prices won't rise fast or soon. Lots of new jobs would solve your problem anyway, wouldn't it?
I was one of the few who noticed when "mortgage payment" became "rent" in the CPI.
I wouldn't read anything into that. I'm an economist, and the CPI is just a fixed basket of goods and services which might be purchased by a ``typical urban consumer''. It started out as a list of essentials for WWII shipyard workers, and it's updated periodically. If they changed from owning to renting, it's just a sign that the working poor don't own apartments in the big city. Nothing new there. Anyway, it wasn't any kind of warning, and there is nothing there that you could see more clearly with the aid of a tin-foil hat.
I would say though, what's good for the working poor is what we should all expect for a standard of living- and had I been a bit smarter, I wouldn't have tried for the American Dream and stuck with the working-poor lifestyle instead. I WILL be telling my son that the American Dream is just a bunch of garbage- and if I'm lucky enough to hold on to the house as my second-most-important asset (car is first) then I will make sure that unlike with my parents, he will be comfortable moving home even with a wife and kids.
Move in with your folks, rent out the house, and suffer for a while, until you can afford that trailer. Whatever you do, don't keep going deeper into debt.
Problem with that- the same reason that the value has gone down (demand is down) has affected rentals in the area as well- for the last two years Washington County in Oregon has had a 25% housing vacancy rate. Renting is as hard as selling- but at least my parent's farm is only 12 miles from work and on bad days with my migraines I can stop there.
Such tactics are sometimes short term effective, but long term... probably useless.
We don't need them to be effective long term. We only need to slow down the outsourcing long enough for the next big invention to create a new round of high tech investment in the United States. Repeat the short-term solution as necessary.
OK - A post proposing electronic warfare against an ally, because they're more competetive than you gets informative? Americans really concern me sometimes. If something doesn't go your way, bugger diplomacy - declare war!
India may be an ally of the United States, but they are a deadly enemy to US-born knowledge workers who are too poor to emigrate to India. The government, by forming an alliance with the enemy, has become a traitor. Diplomacy has failed to protect our jobs- we tried it and got the WTO which has utterly failed to protect the American people, though a few elites got rich, and emigrated to Bermuda for tax reasons.
If you can't stand the COMPETITION, including WARFARE- then don't get into the business. Capitalism is WAR- not peace.
But you have to buy based on the assumption that your future income may be lower. (And you might think about renting out a room.)
That's one of the options I'm currently contemplating. My point though was more to being tied to a single community- renters have more freedom of movement, and there's a lot to suggest in the current economy that local permanent positions in any industry will be a thing of the past. The successfull young person will get mobile and STAY mobile- keep assets portable, and a house is not portable.
Due to being rather upside-down on debt, having a pre-pay penalty on the mortgage, and the effect of outsourcing on housing prices in the Silicon Forest- my estimate is that it would cost me a minimum of $20,000 to do what you suggest. I'm better off struggling along for now and hoping that permanent job with the state comes through. A couple of years from now (with a return to more reasonable housing inflation in the area, and the end of the pre-pay penalty 3 years into the most recent refinance) and I'll be able to make the choice between refinancing again or doing what you propose. Until then- I just have to struggle through and I well admit it's my own fault for trying for home ownership. I had a good enough warning- I was one of the few who noticed when "mortgage payment" became "rent" in the CPI.
I agree- I'd be interested in the Solar Sail if for no other reason than it's development in the next 24 years or so could give us OTHER big positives (like the eventual colonization of the solar system in about 200 years). This could be just the thing we need to jump start investment in this area.
Thus we gain meaningless grunt jobs farming food, making computer games, and manufacturing Tsunami detectors? But of course Japan can do two of those cheaper- so we're down to all being substinence farmers in your ideal solution?
The measure of productivity here is calls handled per hour. The vendor doesn't really care whether the issue is actually remedied or not- they got the money when they sold the product, tech support is an ongoing cost not a profit. Thus, the real question is- can they get the customer off the phone fast enough to justify their cheap salary? If they can get him off in less than 5x what you can- and their salary is 1/5th- then they're doing good by the ideas of the vendor. Fsk the customer.
Slashdot Mirror
How the fuck is that Marxist? A Marxist would turn those tools against the bosses, not against their fellow workers.
It isn't Marxist- but we're not living with a Marxist system. We have to deal with what we've been given- and what we've been given is an economic class warfare that has our so-called "fellow workers" in other nations teaming up with the bosses to deny health care and kill 18,000 Americans every freakin' year. That's WARFARE- and should be responed to as such.
The grandparent's point, however, was that ANY interferance in the free market was a bad thing, and that any industry will return without government interferance. The problem is, though, that the example he used (the auto industry) has had a good deal of government interferance over the last 20 years or so- and that's the ONLY reason why Japanese and German companies are opening plants here (to avoid the interferance).
And even Fords vs Toyotas today- they might be ASSEMBLED in America- but all the parts came from China. You don't have a choice what parts an American reseller like Dell, HP, or Ford chooses to include.
They may not compensate you by paying you more. But on a larg scale, the effect should be the same.
Bullshit, there's no incentive for the effect to be the same.
As companies become more efficient, goods will become cheaper, so your paycheck will buy more.
Why would goods become cheaper, when the money can be put to better use increasing the profit margin of investors?
Any investments you have in industries that become more efficient will reward you financially.
Who can afford to invest when your paycheck fails to cover basic standard of living?
As things become more efficient, there is more wealth to go around.
No there isn't- wealth just gets more concentrated at the top and the bottom has LESS to go around. You've bought the lies- now try for something that actually looks like truth.
Ooooh, I have a better idea. The world owes you man. You should just sit at home and we (the world) will send you a check, scratch that, direct deposit. Wouldn't that be nice ?
I didn't go to get a college degree so that my brain could be wasted- if you did, I'm sorry for you.
? Meanwhile you pointedly refuse to answer why you support
There's a 30 posts in 4 hours limit, you idiot.
See it really does puzzle me, why you are typing your anti-sourcing whine on a computer where every single part is outsourced (but of course you were not affected, it was just lower and lower-middle class people before, not like they matter, right ?)
My computer was assembled in America at least- I don't buy Great Wall White Boxen.
The WTO is an enemy to any patriotic American because it is effectively a world government that has the right to enact laws without congressional oversight. In other words, it's an unconstitutional set of treaties to begin with that is a con artist game for stealing money from ordinary people.
As for your 200 years of economic theory, I'm sure the economists will be singing a different tune once they realize that their number crunching and theory generating can be done at 1/10th the cost in India. As far as I'm concerned, we should outsource the economists.
Depends on your defintion of "success", I suppose. I don't find the idea of chasing a career across country appealing; my family and friends are here. I'd rather make less $$$ - or even change careers - and stay here. YMMV.
Me too- but for a young person who still has the choice between family and career, the best advice is to choose career while you still can. Once you're tied to family and friends and mortgage, you can't just dash off to India when the industry moves there.
Non-violent terrorism is the point- and only an idiot would run such a bot from their own home network. Unless we cause some severe damage to the outsouring cost model, we can expect our jobs to continue going overseas at a high rate of speed. If we can slow it down, just by 4 years or so, the baby boomers dying off will create new jobs here.
I buy American whenever I can- but most stuff isn't made in America anymore at all. Shirts, shoes, pants, underwear- you're wearing stuff that was made in sweatshops elsewhere, and you can't buy American in textiles at ANY rate you choose to pay anymore.
That's the whole point of moving on to the next obvious stage in the economic war (and it is a war, don't fool yourself).
Are there any American made computer parts anymore, anywhere? All the more reason to FORCE the manufacturers to come back to America I say. Personally, I drive a Ford, the CPUs in my computers are made by AMD and Intel, and the memory is Kingston. Those are all American companies, but unlike you, I don't assume that an American brand name means anything more than American Assembly. Manufacturing is ALL done elsewhere, and you have NO choice at all in the market today. I'd rather pay 5x as much and buy American- but let's face facts, the choice just ain't there no more.
I also misunderstood- I thought you were saying we could live on that HERE in America.
I'd point out that:
1. Most people WORKING on computers didn't make the buying decisions- they were made elsewhere in the organization.
2. Certain things can't be gotten in the United States any more- though every microprocessor in my house is AMD or Intel (American companies), I'm sure they were all mass produced overseas.
3. I'm willing to admit I was one of the ones buying Japanese in the 1980s- though I now drive a Ford.
Are you per chance posting on a malyasian made keyboard, taiwanese motherboard, chinese/taiwanese made intel processor and korean/japanese lcd/crt ? Just curious....
Exactly my point- if we make NOTHING in America that there isn't a quota and tarriffs on, how do we expect to keep people in America working and thus, consuming?
As a matter of fact, everything I work on currently is American branded- but I'm sure it's all foreign manufacture.
Its not just like America except you can rent an apartmentfor $10 a day
Where in hell can you do that in America? Cheapest I can find is $13/day. And if you earned what a worker in China does, $3.84/day, which is what you're really recommending that Americans earn, how would you afford a $10/day apparment?
I use to fear shipping jobs but not anymore.
Can you explain more- nothing you've said has removed my fear, since the United States has been negative on exports for 10 years now, and overall has not been positive on exports vs imports for 40 years.
Don't assume that the house prices will magically turn around: unless something happens to bring back the demand, like lots of new jobs, prices won't rise fast or soon. Lots of new jobs would solve your problem anyway, wouldn't it?
Very quickly. But the other thing is, now that I'm working again, I am *slowly* and with lots of cheap non-nutritious food for dinners, paying down the loan faster than minimums. While they'd charge me the pre-pay penalty for paying off completely, I can accelerate the loan somewhat. Three years form now I'll be better off- with luck- and then I can make the choice. At least I'm no longer going deeper in debt, for the most part- just losing more assets (whenever I get low, I sell off on e-bay). At some point, of course, the assets will run out- but at this point I'm surviving (barely).
Re:Whine, whine, whine (Score:1) by RealAlaskan (576404) on Monday December 27, @07:03PM (#11195621) (http://geocities.com/nelstomlinson) Getting upside down on a car is bad. Upside down on a house loan is way worse, because it's so much bigger. What you're doing is why house prices are sticky downwards: when demand falls off, folks just hang onto their houses, and it can take years for the market to clear. Don't assume that the house prices will magically turn around: unless something happens to bring back the demand, like lots of new jobs, prices won't rise fast or soon. Lots of new jobs would solve your problem anyway, wouldn't it? I was one of the few who noticed when "mortgage payment" became "rent" in the CPI. I wouldn't read anything into that. I'm an economist, and the CPI is just a fixed basket of goods and services which might be purchased by a ``typical urban consumer''. It started out as a list of essentials for WWII shipyard workers, and it's updated periodically. If they changed from owning to renting, it's just a sign that the working poor don't own apartments in the big city. Nothing new there. Anyway, it wasn't any kind of warning, and there is nothing there that you could see more clearly with the aid of a tin-foil hat.
I would say though, what's good for the working poor is what we should all expect for a standard of living- and had I been a bit smarter, I wouldn't have tried for the American Dream and stuck with the working-poor lifestyle instead. I WILL be telling my son that the American Dream is just a bunch of garbage- and if I'm lucky enough to hold on to the house as my second-most-important asset (car is first) then I will make sure that unlike with my parents, he will be comfortable moving home even with a wife and kids.
Move in with your folks, rent out the house, and suffer for a while, until you can afford that trailer. Whatever you do, don't keep going deeper into debt.
Problem with that- the same reason that the value has gone down (demand is down) has affected rentals in the area as well- for the last two years Washington County in Oregon has had a 25% housing vacancy rate. Renting is as hard as selling- but at least my parent's farm is only 12 miles from work and on bad days with my migraines I can stop there.
Such tactics are sometimes short term effective, but long term... probably useless.
We don't need them to be effective long term. We only need to slow down the outsourcing long enough for the next big invention to create a new round of high tech investment in the United States. Repeat the short-term solution as necessary.
OK - A post proposing electronic warfare against an ally, because they're more competetive than you gets informative? Americans really concern me sometimes. If something doesn't go your way, bugger diplomacy - declare war!
India may be an ally of the United States, but they are a deadly enemy to US-born knowledge workers who are too poor to emigrate to India. The government, by forming an alliance with the enemy, has become a traitor. Diplomacy has failed to protect our jobs- we tried it and got the WTO which has utterly failed to protect the American people, though a few elites got rich, and emigrated to Bermuda for tax reasons.
If you can't stand the COMPETITION, including WARFARE- then don't get into the business. Capitalism is WAR- not peace.
But you have to buy based on the assumption that your future income may be lower. (And you might think about renting out a room.)
That's one of the options I'm currently contemplating. My point though was more to being tied to a single community- renters have more freedom of movement, and there's a lot to suggest in the current economy that local permanent positions in any industry will be a thing of the past. The successfull young person will get mobile and STAY mobile- keep assets portable, and a house is not portable.
True, it is- which is why I spelled it out instead of using Steve Gibson's acronym that confused me to begin with.
Due to being rather upside-down on debt, having a pre-pay penalty on the mortgage, and the effect of outsourcing on housing prices in the Silicon Forest- my estimate is that it would cost me a minimum of $20,000 to do what you suggest. I'm better off struggling along for now and hoping that permanent job with the state comes through. A couple of years from now (with a return to more reasonable housing inflation in the area, and the end of the pre-pay penalty 3 years into the most recent refinance) and I'll be able to make the choice between refinancing again or doing what you propose. Until then- I just have to struggle through and I well admit it's my own fault for trying for home ownership. I had a good enough warning- I was one of the few who noticed when "mortgage payment" became "rent" in the CPI.
I agree- I'd be interested in the Solar Sail if for no other reason than it's development in the next 24 years or so could give us OTHER big positives (like the eventual colonization of the solar system in about 200 years). This could be just the thing we need to jump start investment in this area.
You are right- I forgot the geometric nature, and just used a straight comparison. I also haven't checked oil prices since November. My bad.
Thus we gain meaningless grunt jobs farming food, making computer games, and manufacturing Tsunami detectors? But of course Japan can do two of those cheaper- so we're down to all being substinence farmers in your ideal solution?
The measure of productivity here is calls handled per hour. The vendor doesn't really care whether the issue is actually remedied or not- they got the money when they sold the product, tech support is an ongoing cost not a profit. Thus, the real question is- can they get the customer off the phone fast enough to justify their cheap salary? If they can get him off in less than 5x what you can- and their salary is 1/5th- then they're doing good by the ideas of the vendor. Fsk the customer.