If you really feel the need to collect personal data and you *truly* care about the privacy concerns and needs of your customers, then don't go burying such disclosures in a privacy statement that the average user is unlikely to ever see let alone read.
If you truly care about privacy, then either require the user to *opt-in* to such sharing or prominently display the lack of such privacy on the initial splash screen.
Burying the collection of personal data in the middle of some lawyerly gobblygook privacy statement is like mortgage lenders burying key terms in the middle of 100's of pages of documentation. Yeah, it's legally there but no one is actually going to read or understand it.
IRONIC that a statistics professor taking an online statistics course who is critical of the underlying statistical competency of the online professor would judge an entire teaching methadology based on an N=1 observation, that itself is likely to be a "biased estimator" based on his own personal interests and sour grapes.
Morevover, I found many of his observations to be pedantic and nit-picking. I attended a top ranked school for multiple degree levels in Applied Math and the lectures varied *widely* in quality -- most ranging from poor to average with only a rare excellent (usually from a dedicated junior faculty member who was about to be denied tenure). Some of the most established and famous professors gave the most incomprehensible and disorganized lectures. In fact, even the reviewer's hand-picked examples of terrible pedagogy were often better than the average scribbled and elliptic proofs that I remember from school.
Why not use this "technology" to resume allowing people to carry liquids >3oz in carry-ons? Perhaps limit the number of such bottles to save time but if they can swab drinks bought in the security zone, they can swab our drinks while we wait to be nakey-scanned...
Even though the API was admittedly unsupported it was a core part of iGoogle and was used by many people as part of embedded scripts. While Google has admirably given a nice long notice for terminating iGoogle, it would have been nice had Google given at least a wee bit of warning of its abrupt termination of the weather API. Even its termination was not clear since the returned error page was an old page dated 2009 that seemed to imply that the user had done something wrong. It wasn't until I saw others encountering the same problem that I realized the problem was not on my mind, resulting in a fair bit of wasted debugging and head scratching on my end.
Is it asking too much of a company whose motto is "Don't be evil" to have given a week or two of warning or at least to have spent a minute or two setting up a meaningful and informative error page? Come on Google, you can do better...
I see some openings for additional claims: 15. The system of claim 1, wherein said geographical search area is a TOWN 16. The system of claim 1, wherein said geographical search area is a VILLAGE 17. The system of claim 1, wherein said geographical search area is a COUNTY 18. The system of claim 1, wherein said geographical search area is a NEIGHBORHOOD 19. The system of claim 1, wherein said geographical search area is a HAMLET 20. The system of claim 1, wherein said geographical search area is an UNINCORPORATED AREA 21. The system of claim 1, wherein said geographical search area is a BOROUGH 22. The system of claim 1, wherein said geographical search area is a METROPOLITAN AREA 23. The system of claim 1, wherein said geographical search area is a RESORT 24. The system of claim 1, wherein said geographical search area is a COMMUNITY 22. The system of claim 1, wherein said geographical search area is any other possible geographic denomination either previously invented or to be invented in the future...
Re:Why are Europeans so fixated on hating Israel?
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Tell me please, what country wasn't founded on territory that was at one time occupied by someone else?
Israel captured the land fair-and-square in a defensive war. They have already given back 100% of the Sinai. As late as the end of 2000, the Israeli government was willing to give back 100% of Gaza, 95% of the West Bank and all but a 100 feet or so of the Golan. Israel was willing to uproot its own people with a strong historical and religious claim to the land and risk internal conflict all for the sake of a "promise".
Remind me again what other country has been so generous in victory against a sea of enemies who at best promise a cold peace.
I have nothing against discussing individual disagreements with Israeli policies or actions. But your inability to distinguish between Arab terrorists and extremely restrained pinpoint responses makes you into an anti-Semite.
It is precisely this single minded fixation with blaming and hating Jews that is the hallmark of anti-Semitism. Look into your heart for a moment and think about why of all the many truly evil conflicts in the world, you fixate on Israel.
Where is your anger about the *millions* of Sudanese Christians being starved, murdered, and sold into slavery?
Where is your anger about the treatment of women and minorities throughout the Arab world?
What about "occupied" Kurdistan and the 20 million people there without a homeland?
Where is your sympathy for the Bahai's who have been persecuted endlessly by Iran?
Why are you so outraged by one little country the size of New Jersey that has never asked for more than to be left alone and live in peace with its neighbors?
Re:Why are Europeans so fixated on hating Israel?
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I never said you were a supporter of Bin Laden. I said your moral equivalence between terrorists and victims of terrorism is equivalent to someone saying there is no difference between bin Laden blowing up the WTC and American foreign policy.
I think it is then not a large logical leap to say that comparing Israel's fight against terrorism and annihilation is equivalent to suicide bombing makes you ignorant, anti-semitic, or a terrorist sympathizer.
Plus "accepted by Saudi Arabia" doesn't hold any water since the fundamentalist world sees all the Arab regimes as corrupt and as American puppets.
All I said was that the Swiss are extremely xenophobic as evidenced by their racist citizenship laws and persistent anti-foreigner sentiment as evidenced by repeated legal attempts to cap the number of immigrants.
Switzerland has one of the toughest citizen laws requiring a minimum of 12 years stay plus you must satisfy a web of requirements at the national, canton, and local level. You can live there all your life (as my father-in-law did) and still not be granted citizenship.
I also am sure that the average Swiss who came from some neighboring Western country several centuries ago does not in the least see much commonality with a Middle-Eastern Muslim immigrant like yourself.
You may have gotten citizenship, but you can be sure that the "real" Swiss will never consider you to be one of them.
Re:Why are Europeans so fixated on hating Israel?
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Everybody if you go back far enough has roots somewhere else. Duh!
Switzerland is on the brink of giving voting rights like the MidEast is on the brink of breaking out in peace. Plus, citizenship is way more important.
It should be interesting though when Europe wakes up one day and realizes that they can no longer buy off their Muslim minorities with anti-Israel sentiment. Sort of like when we woke up and realized that the "Peaceful Religion" ain't so peaceful...
Re:Why are Europeans so fixated on hating Israel?
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You say: Blowing civilians to bits is not more evil than oppressing millions of people for 30 years, destroying their houses, their fields
By definition, you are then a terrorist. You are no different from Bin Laden and his gang that said that "Blowing skyscrapers to bits is no different from American soldiers occupying our holy lands."
Of course while "evil" Israel opressed people for 30 years, the Palestinians and Arab countries were just begging for peace. Shame on the Western media for making up all those hijackings, bombings, and wars and blaming it on those peace-loving Arabs.
At first I thought you were just a run-of-the-mill ignorant or anti-Semitic European. Now I know that you are nothing more than another Moslim Terrorist.
Maybe you should share your views with the INS or FBI. If you tell me your identity, I would be happy to forward on your views... I am sure that they are especially interested in Moslim immigrants who support terrorism. Make sure your don't overstay your visa.
I have a lot of respect for US fundamentalist Christians.
On the other hand I have very little respect for in-name-only European Christians who wouldn't know morality if it hit them on the head. And those who both now and historically have ignored all the Christian messages of peace.
Re:Why are Europeans so fixated on hating Israel?
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...and that does not change the fact that Israel is violating international laws while Iran, Saudi Arabia,... do not.
Really? Some examples: - Human rights is part of internation law. Last time I looked stonings, beheadings, freedom of religion, etc. were part of human rights
- Slavery is also a violation of human rights. It still exists in Saudi Arabia and several other Arab countries that import black Christian slaves captured as war booty in Sudan
- Iran is a signatory of the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty. Almost everybody agrees that they are violating it now in their quest for nuclear weapons (NOTE: Israel is not violating internation law here since joining the treaty is voluntary and Israel decided to not join the treaty rather than join it and lie)
- Kidnapping - Saudi Arabia refuses to turn over children kidnapped from the United States in violation of international treaties for the protection of children
- Iran uses child soldiers, another violation of international law
- I also seem to remember a hostage "situation" back at the American embassy which seemed to violate something about the Geneva convention and treatment of embassies.
Need I go on... but then again an anti-Semite can never be convinced by the facts. (oh yes, I forgot, you did go to 2 Jewish weddings -- that almost makes you a rabbi)
Re:Why are Europeans so fixated on hating Israel?
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Now you are being inconsistent.
When Saudi Arabia stone adultresses or beheads missionaries or forbids people from worshipping in their religion, that is an INTERNAL matter.
But when Israel destroys houses of terrorists, gives less funding to Israeli Arab communities, or gets tough on terrorists that is not an INTERNAL matter?
At least try to pretend to be consistent:)
Of course, we all know the real truth. The very existence of a strong and independent state of Israel is something that Jew-haters like yourself find very hard to swallow. (By the way, when you went to those 2 Jewish weddings which you are so proud of, did you have to shower afterwards?)
You say: So you are either ignorant or misinformed
You are confusing numbers of foreigners with their treatment. As you admitted before, Switzerland denies the basic rights of vote and citizenship to nearly 20% of its population (80% of which have been living there for 20+ years and many of whom are 2nd or 3rd generation!!!!) Maybe you should see the film "Bread and Chocolate"
Remind me, isn't Switzerland the country that has had 6 referenda on setting a cap on immigration? If I remember correctly the cap in 2000 was to be set at 18% which would require deporting some 100,000 people?
Talking about collective punishment here...
Re:Why are Europeans so fixated on hating Israel?
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You say: Oh by the way, in Switzerland, 20% of the population is made of foreign people, and they all have the same rights as we do (except that they can't vote, but this is changing)
Most people would say that lacking voting and citizenship rights is pretty significant. My father-in-law was born in Switzerland and his father was a successful publisher in Zurich, yet he was never given citizenship so he moved to the US.
80% of the foreigners have been living there for more than 20 years, yet they are denied the basic rights of citizenship and voting.
On the other hand, now I understand why you don't make much of Israel granting full citizenship and voting rights to its Arab population. It means nothing to you since your country denies it!
Switzerland is in my opinion one of the most racist countries in the world. The way Swiss people speak of and treat non-Western foreigners makes the KKK look enlightened.
What other country inspects peoples housekeeping skills before making them citizens lest they bring in some "dirty" habits from their original countries?
Let's not of course forget WWII where the Swiss sat back and made money for both sides and bolted their fronteirs shut while their neigbhors went off to die in concentration camps. Not content with just profiting form ordinary war-trade, they went off and stole the possessions of Holocaust victims.
Oh yes, but you are not anti-Semitic, since you went to 2 Jewish weddings! I heard that many Nazis had Jewish colleagues too before the war.
Why don't you go back to Switzerland and rot with the rest of Continent where anti-Semitism is so deeply ingrained that it seeps out of every rock.
I have a lot more respect for Palestinians than from Eurotrash like you. At least the Palestinians have some grievances and are fighting for something tangible. The Europeans are only in it for the old sport of anti-Semitism. The only wonder perhaps is that it took 50 years for the Europeans to forget the lessons of the Holocaust and start finding excuses to attack Jews.
Why don't you read some of the news stories about how your beloved Aryan Swiss countrymen murdered a Rabbi a couple of months ago just for being Jewish?
Why do synagogues in Switzerland (and much of the rest of Europe) require guards armed with submachine guns? Why are Jews told to hide their Jewishness lest some of the pride-and-joy of Switzerland attack them for just being Jewish?
One could make a good case that it is better to be an Israeli Arab in Haifa (which is a peaceful mixed city with a strong spirit of coexistance) than to be a Jew or foreigner living in Switzerland or France.
Re:Why are Europeans so fixated on hating Israel?
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1. Unless you are a moral relativist (which it seems you are), how could morality and ethics possibly be decided by a majority vote of any body, much less the UN?
The Nazis were brought to power by a democratic vote and the Nuremberg laws were passed by the legislature. Does that make them right?
2. The word 'the' is critical to all debates on resolution 242. You should read the memoirs of the US and British negotiators who spent weeks pushing for the exclusion of that word. Plus, last time I looked, Israel had accepted Resolution 242...
3. Israel has indeed withdrawn from more than 95%. You forget of course the Sinai Pennisula which dwarfs the size of the West Bank and Gaza. While it has fewer people, it was of strong strategic importance and had enough oil to make Israel self-sufficient. It was given back 100% down to the last centimeter.
4. We are not talking about the neighbors of terrorists. Exactly how many houses have been intentionally destroyed by the army that either were not terrorist houses or that were not used to shield terrorists? (Believe me, if the US army were there, we would have cleared a 2 mile path in every direction. Have you seen Tora Bora recently?)
Re:Why are Europeans so fixated on hating Israel?
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>You say: your comment on being anti-semite make me laugh by the way, I don't think I would have gone to two jewish weddings in the last three monthes otherwise
That made me a laugh -- you just gave the modern version of old the joke about the anti-Semite saying "but some of my best friends are Jewish"
Then again as I said there is another option, you could just be ignorant
Re:Why are Europeans so fixated on hating Israel?
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Your moniker "swissmonkey" is very appropriate:)
First, you should re-read my original response since you continue to perpetrate myths. I will no waste my time repeating the same responses, but will add some other comments.
1. First, ethics and legality are not decided by "majority vote". Otherwise slavery and many other bad things would still be here. Majority vote in a UN dominated by third world despots should hardly be taken as the last word in morality. Perhaps, you blame the Jews in Nazi Germany who tried to disobey the laws putting them in gas chambers.
2. Israel has already withdrawn from more than 95% of the occupied territories. Resolution 242 called for "Withdrawal from occupied territories." The word "the" or "all" was deliberately left out by the drafters.
Also Resolution 242 calls for withdrawal within the context of secure and recognizable borders and an overall peace settlement. Clearly, none of the above exist due to the rejectionish Palestinian front.
3. Morality and conduct under wartime conditions is always a relative condition. Hey I wish that I could shit perfume too. Unfortunately, the business of defending civilians from suicide bombers is sometimes a bit ugly. Again, I challenge you to find one example of any army that behaved better under similar conditions.
4. A lot of things are collective punishment. Here in the US, we often confiscate the boats of drug dealers and the cars of drunk drivers. Is that collective punishment because the rest of the family surely suffers when they lose their cars or luxuries?
Finally, you would be taken a lot more seriously if you put this into some tight of balanced context.
For example if you said something like, "I understand that it must be awful to live in daily fear of suicide bombers etc. Nevertheless, I believe that the Israelis should hold themselves to a higher level than their neighbors etc."
Luckily, though, nobody listens much to Europeans anymore. The Swiss in particular are about as hypocritical as you get. My Swiss "friends" complain about all the foreigners (all 10 of them in the whole country) who are destroying their Christian culture...
I think though that most Israelis realize that without a majority they would not just be second class citizens but dead.
The Middle East is very similar to Europe in its treatment of minorities. The only difference is that in European countries that tend to just supress or deport them while in Arab countries they kill them.
So, in your fairy book and idealistic conception of the world there is indeed no room for ethnically-based states, others who worry about their very lives think and act differently.
But then again without a real danger of anti-Semitism, there would be less need for a state of Israel...
Re:Why are Europeans so fixated on hating Israel?
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Really, you are about as ignorant as they come.
Let's take some examples.
Many Palestinians are Christians. Do you know how Christians are treated in Saudi Arabia? Did you know that any Moslem who converts to Christianity is given the death penalty.
Many Palestinians are used to Western vices such as alcahol and pre-marital sex. Did you know that such crimes result in wipping and execution in countries like Saudi Arabia and Iran
Female Palestinians can drive cars and don't have to cover their bodies with shapeless rags. What are their rights in Saudi Arabia.
The Palestinian press is pretty lively. Many Palestinians gripe about their leaders almost as much as they gripe about Israel:) Do you know what happens to people who criticize the President of Syria?
Interesting that Arabs on the Golan are not part of the intifidah. Did you ever think that the last thing they want to do is become part of Syria?
Another test:
Which is more dangerous to your physical well-being:
1. Standing up as an Israeli Arab student in the middle of a University classroom and saying that you support the Intifidah and that you think suicide bombers are martyrs
2. Standing in the middle of the street in Saudi Arabia and saying a Christian prayer.
I invite you try them both:)
Re:Why are Europeans so fixated on hating Israel?
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You say: Israel is a criminal state, as Iraq is.
I can think of only 2 possibilities that would merit such a comparison:
1. You are totally ignorant
2. You are a vile anti-Semite
Re:Why are Europeans so fixated on hating Israel?
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Time to take off the anti-Semitic mask and anti-Israel propaganda and look at some cold, hard facts
- Myth: legalization of torture
Fact: Supreme court in Israel has outlawed even relatively trivial amounts of "physical pressure" even when there is a "ticking bomb." Some interrogation pressure is still allowed when there is a "ticking bomb" such as sleep deprivation, long periods of standing, and emotional pressure. None of this is even remotely comparable to the rampant real-live sadistic torture that is common with many of Europe's best friends in the Middle East. Of course, the US and its allies behave similarly and don't exactly serve tea to captives in Afghanistan and elsewhere... The perhaps legitimate criticism of Israeli behavior is the degree of aggressiveness in pursuing criminal charges against individual violators who do so against regulations. (But then again, we all know about how individual European countries have even more egregriously shielded their UN peacekeeping citizens from prosecution for rape and other crimes while serving in the former Yugoslavia.)
- Myth: illegal building of settlements in occupied areas in violation of Geneva Conventions Fact 1: Many 3rd party legal scholars challenge whether the Geneva Convention even applies to the territories since technically they never had any officially recognized sovereignty since they were previously occupied illegally by Jordan (where was the UN then?) and prior to that they were in the category of mandate. Fact 2: Denying Jewish rights to settlement in the Territories would be recognizing the 100% ethnic cleansing performed by the Jordanians in 1948 and by Arab pogroms in the preceding decades. Many settlements have been rebuilt over areas that had been levelled in 1948 (including even some of the settlements in Gaza). Hebron's 3 thousand years of continual Jewish presence was wiped out by the 1929 Arab pogrom - the downtown market area still has Jewish symbols carved into many of the homes.
Myth: violation of UN resolutions since 30 years Fact: First, Israel, in contrast to Iraq, has not violated any of the binding UN resolutions. Second, Israel can hardly be blamed for violating that are completely politically motivated and biased. For example, "Zionism is Racism" is one of the better known examples of UN wisdom. Should Jews be required to remove all references to Zion (a synonym for Jerusalem) from the bible and prayer books?
- Myth: Israeli army exactions in occupied territories, documented by Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch,...
Fact1: Israel every day takes huge risks to target operations and limit damage. Believe me, it would be a lot easier to solve the problem the US way by carpet bombing with B52s from 30,000+ feet.
Fact 2: War is hell. People who live in glass houses shouldn't plant bombs. You can't go around launching morters, blowing up busses, knifing kids, throwing Molotov cocktails and be expected to be given a "timeout". On the other hand, I seem to remember Israel offering to give back 95%+ of the territories without even getting a counter-offer.
- Myth: collective punishments (houses destruction, olive trees fields destructions,...), which is a violation of human rights and a war crime
Fact: Saying that blowing up a terrorist's home or destroying a mortar factory is collective punishment is a bit of a stretch. Sometimes houses or trees are destroyed when they have been used by snipers to kill civilians. Again, people who live in glass houses, shouldn't throw Molotov Cocktails. Of course, most other countries would have levelled the whole area by now...
- Myth: discrimination towards Israeli-Arabs (and no, being able to be elected is not a proof of non-discrimination)... Fact 1: Just last week the Supreme Court allowed several Arab candidates to run for election who have stood shoulder-to-shoulder with terrorist leaders in enemy countries and who have praised suicide bombers. Most European countries would have them arrested and certainly would disqualify them from election. Fact 2: The average standard of living and infant mortality rate is better among Israeli Arabs than among even the wealthiest Arab countries Fact 3: There is way more human rights and freedom of speech for Israeli Arabs in Israel than for Arabs in any other Arab country.
Bottom line: Is Israel perfect? Of course not. But given that Israel's very existence is challenged daily in both word and deed, it is a true measure of Sainthood that things are not much worse both for Palestinians and for their Israeli Arab supporters.
I personally think that Israel is stupid for attempting to live up to a higher standard that it is never given credit for.
Re:Why are Europeans so fixated on hating Israel?
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You did not answer the question.
I asked why do Europeans disproportionately hate Israel compared to the scores of other evil places in the world?
Even if you accept as gospel all of your complaints, you can't seriously believe that life is better in Iran, Syria, Saudi Arabia or any of the dozens of other dozens of dictatorships that money hungry Europeans open their checkbooks to.
Slashdot Mirror
If you really feel the need to collect personal data and you *truly* care about the privacy concerns and needs of your customers, then don't go burying such disclosures in a privacy statement that the average user is unlikely to ever see let alone read.
If you truly care about privacy, then either require the user to *opt-in* to such sharing or prominently display the lack of such privacy on the initial splash screen.
Burying the collection of personal data in the middle of some lawyerly gobblygook privacy statement is like mortgage lenders burying key terms in the middle of 100's of pages of documentation. Yeah, it's legally there but no one is actually going to read or understand it.
IRONIC that a statistics professor taking an online statistics course who is critical of the underlying statistical competency of the online professor would judge an entire teaching methadology based on an N=1 observation, that itself is likely to be a "biased estimator" based on his own personal interests and sour grapes.
Morevover, I found many of his observations to be pedantic and nit-picking. I attended a top ranked school for multiple degree levels in Applied Math and the lectures varied *widely* in quality -- most ranging from poor to average with only a rare excellent (usually from a dedicated junior faculty member who was about to be denied tenure). Some of the most established and famous professors gave the most incomprehensible and disorganized lectures. In fact, even the reviewer's hand-picked examples of terrible pedagogy were often better than the average scribbled and elliptic proofs that I remember from school.
Darn foreign coffee pickers and 3rd world working conditions...
Oh this is slashdot.... never mind. Yeah security holes in Java suck too
Why not use this "technology" to resume allowing people to carry liquids >3oz in carry-ons?
Perhaps limit the number of such bottles to save time but if they can swab drinks bought in the security zone, they can swab our drinks while we wait to be nakey-scanned...
Even though the API was admittedly unsupported it was a core part of iGoogle and was used by many people as part of embedded scripts. While Google has admirably given a nice long notice for terminating iGoogle, it would have been nice had Google given at least a wee bit of warning of its abrupt termination of the weather API. Even its termination was not clear since the returned error page was an old page dated 2009 that seemed to imply that the user had done something wrong. It wasn't until I saw others encountering the same problem that I realized the problem was not on my mind, resulting in a fair bit of wasted debugging and head scratching on my end.
Is it asking too much of a company whose motto is "Don't be evil" to have given a week or two of warning or at least to have spent a minute or two setting up a meaningful and informative error page? Come on Google, you can do better...
I see some openings for additional claims:
15. The system of claim 1, wherein said geographical search area is a TOWN
16. The system of claim 1, wherein said geographical search area is a VILLAGE
17. The system of claim 1, wherein said geographical search area is a COUNTY
18. The system of claim 1, wherein said geographical search area is a NEIGHBORHOOD
19. The system of claim 1, wherein said geographical search area is a HAMLET
20. The system of claim 1, wherein said geographical search area is an UNINCORPORATED AREA
21. The system of claim 1, wherein said geographical search area is a BOROUGH
22. The system of claim 1, wherein said geographical search area is a METROPOLITAN AREA
23. The system of claim 1, wherein said geographical search area is a RESORT
24. The system of claim 1, wherein said geographical search area is a COMMUNITY
22. The system of claim 1, wherein said geographical search area is any other possible geographic denomination either previously invented or to be invented in the future...
Tell me please, what country wasn't founded on territory that was at one time occupied by someone else?
Israel captured the land fair-and-square in a defensive war. They have already given back 100% of the Sinai. As late as the end of 2000, the Israeli government was willing to give back 100% of Gaza, 95% of the West Bank and all but a 100 feet or so of the Golan. Israel was willing to uproot its own people with a strong historical and religious claim to the land and risk internal conflict all for the sake of a "promise".
Remind me again what other country has been so generous in victory against a sea of enemies who at best promise a cold peace.
I have nothing against discussing individual disagreements with Israeli policies or actions. But your inability to distinguish between Arab terrorists and extremely restrained pinpoint responses makes you into an anti-Semite.
It is precisely this single minded fixation with blaming and hating Jews that is the hallmark of anti-Semitism. Look into your heart for a moment and think about why of all the many truly evil conflicts in the world, you fixate on Israel.
Where is your anger about the *millions* of Sudanese Christians being starved, murdered, and sold into slavery?
Where is your anger about the treatment of women and minorities throughout the Arab world?
What about "occupied" Kurdistan and the 20 million people there without a homeland?
Where is your sympathy for the Bahai's who have been persecuted endlessly by Iran?
Why are you so outraged by one little country the size of New Jersey that has never asked for more than to be left alone and live in peace with its neighbors?
I never said you were a supporter of Bin Laden. I said your moral equivalence between terrorists and victims of terrorism is equivalent to someone saying there is no difference between bin Laden blowing up the WTC and American foreign policy.
I think it is then not a large logical leap to say that comparing Israel's fight against terrorism and annihilation is equivalent to suicide bombing makes you ignorant, anti-semitic, or a terrorist sympathizer.
Plus "accepted by Saudi Arabia" doesn't hold any water since the fundamentalist world sees all the Arab regimes as corrupt and as American puppets.
What lie are you talking about?
All I said was that the Swiss are extremely xenophobic as evidenced by their racist citizenship laws and persistent anti-foreigner sentiment as evidenced by repeated legal attempts to cap the number of immigrants.
Switzerland has one of the toughest citizen laws requiring a minimum of 12 years stay plus you must satisfy a web of requirements at the national, canton, and local level. You can live there all your life (as my father-in-law did) and still not be granted citizenship.
I also am sure that the average Swiss who came from some neighboring Western country several centuries ago does not in the least see much commonality with a Middle-Eastern Muslim immigrant like yourself.
You may have gotten citizenship, but you can be sure that the "real" Swiss will never consider you to be one of them.
Everybody if you go back far enough has roots somewhere else. Duh!
Switzerland is on the brink of giving voting rights like the MidEast is on the brink of breaking out in peace. Plus, citizenship is way more important.
It should be interesting though when Europe wakes up one day and realizes that they can no longer buy off their Muslim minorities with anti-Israel sentiment. Sort of like when we woke up and realized that the "Peaceful Religion" ain't so peaceful...
You say: Blowing civilians to bits is not more evil than oppressing millions of people for 30 years, destroying their houses, their fields
By definition, you are then a terrorist.
You are no different from Bin Laden and his gang that said that "Blowing skyscrapers to bits is no different from American soldiers occupying our holy lands."
Of course while "evil" Israel opressed people for 30 years, the Palestinians and Arab countries were just begging for peace. Shame on the Western media for making up all those hijackings, bombings, and wars and blaming it on those peace-loving Arabs.
At first I thought you were just a run-of-the-mill ignorant or anti-Semitic European. Now I know that you are nothing more than another Moslim Terrorist.
Maybe you should share your views with the INS or FBI. If you tell me your identity, I would be happy to forward on your views... I am sure that they are especially interested in Moslim immigrants who support terrorism. Make sure your don't overstay your visa.
Thank you for your insightful comment. Now we have a quantitative way to test whether you are anti-Semitic or just run-of-the-mill anti-Israel.
Do you want all 6.592 million (actually more like 6.1 million) Israelis to be sent into space or just the 80% that are Jewish?
In other words, what should happen to the 1 million or so Israeli Arabs and and couple of hundred thousand Christians?
Right on!!!
I have a lot of respect for US fundamentalist Christians.
On the other hand I have very little respect for in-name-only European Christians who wouldn't know morality if it hit them on the head. And those who both now and historically have ignored all the Christian messages of peace.
...and that does not change the fact that Israel is violating international laws while Iran, Saudi Arabia,... do not.
Really?
Some examples:
- Human rights is part of internation law. Last time I looked stonings, beheadings, freedom of religion, etc. were part of human rights
- Slavery is also a violation of human rights. It still exists in Saudi Arabia and several other Arab countries that import black Christian slaves captured as war booty in Sudan
- Iran is a signatory of the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty. Almost everybody agrees that they are violating it now in their quest for nuclear weapons (NOTE: Israel is not violating internation law here since joining the treaty is voluntary and Israel decided to not join the treaty rather than join it and lie)
- Kidnapping - Saudi Arabia refuses to turn over children kidnapped from the United States in violation of international treaties for the protection of children
- Iran uses child soldiers, another violation of international law
- I also seem to remember a hostage "situation" back at the American embassy which seemed to violate something about the Geneva convention and treatment of embassies.
Need I go on... but then again an anti-Semite can never be convinced by the facts. (oh yes, I forgot, you did go to 2 Jewish weddings -- that almost makes you a rabbi)
Now you are being inconsistent.
:)
When Saudi Arabia stone adultresses or beheads missionaries or forbids people from worshipping in their religion, that is an INTERNAL matter.
But when Israel destroys houses of terrorists, gives less funding to Israeli Arab communities, or gets tough on terrorists that is not an INTERNAL matter?
At least try to pretend to be consistent
Of course, we all know the real truth. The very existence of a strong and independent state of Israel is something that Jew-haters like yourself find very hard to swallow. (By the way, when you went to those 2 Jewish weddings which you are so proud of, did you have to shower afterwards?)
You say: So you are either ignorant or misinformed
You are confusing numbers of foreigners with their treatment. As you admitted before, Switzerland denies the basic rights of vote and citizenship to nearly 20% of its population (80% of which have been living there for 20+ years and many of whom are 2nd or 3rd generation!!!!) Maybe you should see the film "Bread and Chocolate"
Remind me, isn't Switzerland the country that has had 6 referenda on setting a cap on immigration? If I remember correctly the cap in 2000 was to be set at 18% which would require deporting some 100,000 people?
Talking about collective punishment here...
You say:
Oh by the way, in Switzerland, 20% of the population is made of foreign people, and they all have the same rights as we do (except that they can't vote, but this is changing)
Most people would say that lacking voting and citizenship rights is pretty significant. My father-in-law was born in Switzerland and his father was a successful publisher in Zurich, yet he was never given citizenship so he moved to the US.
80% of the foreigners have been living there for more than 20 years, yet they are denied the basic rights of citizenship and voting.
On the other hand, now I understand why you don't make much of Israel granting full citizenship and voting rights to its Arab population. It means nothing to you since your country denies it!
Switzerland is in my opinion one of the most racist countries in the world. The way Swiss people speak of and treat non-Western foreigners makes the KKK look enlightened.
What other country inspects peoples housekeeping skills before making them citizens lest they bring in some "dirty" habits from their original countries?
Let's not of course forget WWII where the Swiss sat back and made money for both sides and bolted their fronteirs shut while their neigbhors went off to die in concentration camps. Not content with just profiting form ordinary war-trade, they went off and stole the possessions of Holocaust victims.
Oh yes, but you are not anti-Semitic, since you went to 2 Jewish weddings! I heard that many Nazis had Jewish colleagues too before the war.
Why don't you go back to Switzerland and rot with the rest of Continent where anti-Semitism is so deeply ingrained that it seeps out of every rock.
I have a lot more respect for Palestinians than from Eurotrash like you. At least the Palestinians have some grievances and are fighting for something tangible. The Europeans are only in it for the old sport of anti-Semitism. The only wonder perhaps is that it took 50 years for the Europeans to forget the lessons of the Holocaust and start finding excuses to attack Jews.
Why don't you read some of the news stories about how your beloved Aryan Swiss countrymen murdered a Rabbi a couple of months ago just for being Jewish?
Why do synagogues in Switzerland (and much of the rest of Europe) require guards armed with submachine guns? Why are Jews told to hide their Jewishness lest some of the pride-and-joy of Switzerland attack them for just being Jewish?
One could make a good case that it is better to be an Israeli Arab in Haifa (which is a peaceful mixed city with a strong spirit of coexistance) than to be a Jew or foreigner living in Switzerland or France.
1. Unless you are a moral relativist (which it seems you are), how could morality and ethics possibly be decided by a majority vote of any body, much less the UN?
The Nazis were brought to power by a democratic vote and the Nuremberg laws were passed by the legislature. Does that make them right?
2. The word 'the' is critical to all debates on resolution 242. You should read the memoirs of the US and British negotiators who spent weeks pushing for the exclusion of that word. Plus, last time I looked, Israel had accepted Resolution 242...
3. Israel has indeed withdrawn from more than 95%. You forget of course the Sinai Pennisula which dwarfs the size of the West Bank and Gaza. While it has fewer people, it was of strong strategic importance and had enough oil to make Israel self-sufficient. It was given back 100% down to the last centimeter.
4. We are not talking about the neighbors of terrorists. Exactly how many houses have been intentionally destroyed by the army that either were not terrorist houses or that were not used to shield terrorists? (Believe me, if the US army were there, we would have cleared a 2 mile path in every direction. Have you seen Tora Bora recently?)
>You say: your comment on being anti-semite make me laugh by the way, I don't think I would have gone to two jewish weddings in the last three monthes otherwise
That made me a laugh -- you just gave the modern version of old the joke about the anti-Semite saying "but some of my best friends are Jewish"
Then again as I said there is another option, you could just be ignorant
Your moniker "swissmonkey" is very appropriate :)
First, you should re-read my original response since you continue to perpetrate myths. I will no waste my time repeating the same responses, but will add some other comments.
1. First, ethics and legality are not decided by "majority vote". Otherwise slavery and many other bad things would still be here. Majority vote in a UN dominated by third world despots should hardly be taken as the last word in morality. Perhaps, you blame the Jews in Nazi Germany who tried to disobey the laws putting them in gas chambers.
2. Israel has already withdrawn from more than 95% of the occupied territories. Resolution 242 called for "Withdrawal from occupied territories." The word "the" or "all" was deliberately left out by the drafters.
Also Resolution 242 calls for withdrawal within the context of secure and recognizable borders and an overall peace settlement. Clearly, none of the above exist due to the rejectionish Palestinian front.
3. Morality and conduct under wartime conditions is always a relative condition. Hey I wish that I could shit perfume too. Unfortunately, the business of defending civilians from suicide bombers is sometimes a bit ugly. Again, I challenge you to find one example of any army that behaved better under similar conditions.
4. A lot of things are collective punishment. Here in the US, we often confiscate the boats of drug dealers and the cars of drunk drivers. Is that collective punishment because the rest of the family surely suffers when they lose their cars or luxuries?
Finally, you would be taken a lot more seriously if you put this into some tight of balanced context.
For example if you said something like, "I understand that it must be awful to live in daily fear of suicide bombers etc. Nevertheless, I believe that the Israelis should hold themselves to a higher level than their neighbors etc."
Luckily, though, nobody listens much to Europeans anymore. The Swiss in particular are about as hypocritical as you get. My Swiss "friends" complain about all the foreigners (all 10 of them in the whole country) who are destroying their Christian culture...
You are entitled to your theoretical opinions.
I think though that most Israelis realize that without a majority they would not just be second class citizens but dead.
The Middle East is very similar to Europe in its treatment of minorities. The only difference is that in European countries that tend to just supress or deport them while in Arab countries they kill them.
So, in your fairy book and idealistic conception of the world there is indeed no room for ethnically-based states, others who worry about their very lives think and act differently.
But then again without a real danger of anti-Semitism, there would be less need for a state of Israel...
Really, you are about as ignorant as they come. Let's take some examples. Many Palestinians are Christians. Do you know how Christians are treated in Saudi Arabia? Did you know that any Moslem who converts to Christianity is given the death penalty. Many Palestinians are used to Western vices such as alcahol and pre-marital sex. Did you know that such crimes result in wipping and execution in countries like Saudi Arabia and Iran Female Palestinians can drive cars and don't have to cover their bodies with shapeless rags. What are their rights in Saudi Arabia. The Palestinian press is pretty lively. Many Palestinians gripe about their leaders almost as much as they gripe about Israel :) Do you know what happens to people who criticize the President of Syria?
Interesting that Arabs on the Golan are not part of the intifidah. Did you ever think that the last thing they want to do is become part of Syria?
Another test:
Which is more dangerous to your physical well-being:
1. Standing up as an Israeli Arab student in the middle of a University classroom and saying that you support the Intifidah and that you think suicide bombers are martyrs
2. Standing in the middle of the street in Saudi Arabia and saying a Christian prayer.
I invite you try them both :)
You say: Israel is a criminal state, as Iraq is. I can think of only 2 possibilities that would merit such a comparison: 1. You are totally ignorant 2. You are a vile anti-Semite
Time to take off the anti-Semitic mask and anti-Israel propaganda and look at some cold, hard facts
...
- Myth: legalization of torture
Fact: Supreme court in Israel has outlawed even relatively trivial amounts of "physical pressure" even when there is a "ticking bomb." Some interrogation pressure is still allowed when there is a "ticking bomb" such as sleep deprivation, long periods of standing, and emotional pressure. None of this is even remotely comparable to the rampant real-live sadistic torture that is common with many of Europe's best friends in the Middle East. Of course, the US and its allies behave similarly and don't exactly serve tea to captives in Afghanistan and elsewhere... The perhaps legitimate criticism of Israeli behavior is the degree of aggressiveness in pursuing criminal charges against individual violators who do so against regulations. (But then again, we all know about how individual European countries have even more egregriously shielded their UN peacekeeping citizens from prosecution for rape and other crimes while serving in the former Yugoslavia.)
- Myth: illegal building of settlements in occupied areas in violation of Geneva Conventions
Fact 1: Many 3rd party legal scholars challenge whether the Geneva Convention even applies to the territories since technically they never had any officially recognized sovereignty since they were previously occupied illegally by Jordan (where was the UN then?) and prior to that they were in the category of mandate.
Fact 2: Denying Jewish rights to settlement in the Territories would be recognizing the 100% ethnic cleansing performed by the Jordanians in 1948 and by Arab pogroms in the preceding decades. Many settlements have been rebuilt over areas that had been levelled in 1948 (including even some of the settlements in Gaza). Hebron's 3 thousand years of continual Jewish presence was wiped out by the 1929 Arab pogrom - the downtown market area still has Jewish symbols carved into many of the homes.
Myth: violation of UN resolutions since 30 years
Fact: First, Israel, in contrast to Iraq, has not violated any of the binding UN resolutions. Second, Israel can hardly be blamed for violating that are completely politically motivated and biased. For example, "Zionism is Racism" is one of the better known examples of UN wisdom. Should Jews be required to remove all references to Zion (a synonym for Jerusalem) from the bible and prayer books?
- Myth: Israeli army exactions in occupied territories, documented by Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch,...
Fact1: Israel every day takes huge risks to target operations and limit damage. Believe me, it would be a lot easier to solve the problem the US way by carpet bombing with B52s from 30,000+ feet.
Fact 2: War is hell. People who live in glass houses shouldn't plant bombs. You can't go around launching morters, blowing up busses, knifing kids, throwing Molotov cocktails and be expected to be given a "timeout". On the other hand, I seem to remember Israel offering to give back 95%+ of the territories without even getting a counter-offer.
- Myth: collective punishments (houses destruction, olive trees fields destructions,...), which is a violation of human rights and a war crime
Fact: Saying that blowing up a terrorist's home or destroying a mortar factory is collective punishment is a bit of a stretch. Sometimes houses or trees are destroyed when they have been used by snipers to kill civilians. Again, people who live in glass houses, shouldn't throw Molotov Cocktails. Of course, most other countries would have levelled the whole area by now...
- Myth: discrimination towards Israeli-Arabs (and no, being able to be elected is not a proof of non-discrimination)
Fact 1: Just last week the Supreme Court allowed several Arab candidates to run for election who have stood shoulder-to-shoulder with terrorist leaders in enemy countries and who have praised suicide bombers. Most European countries would have them arrested and certainly would disqualify them from election.
Fact 2: The average standard of living and infant mortality rate is better among Israeli Arabs than among even the wealthiest Arab countries
Fact 3: There is way more human rights and freedom of speech for Israeli Arabs in Israel than for Arabs in any other Arab country.
Bottom line: Is Israel perfect? Of course not. But given that Israel's very existence is challenged daily in both word and deed, it is a true measure of Sainthood that things are not much worse both for Palestinians and for their Israeli Arab supporters.
I personally think that Israel is stupid for attempting to live up to a higher standard that it is never given credit for.
You did not answer the question. I asked why do Europeans disproportionately hate Israel compared to the scores of other evil places in the world? Even if you accept as gospel all of your complaints, you can't seriously believe that life is better in Iran, Syria, Saudi Arabia or any of the dozens of other dozens of dictatorships that money hungry Europeans open their checkbooks to.