Okay, most of the discussion that I've seen centers around the point of "is this legal or not?" The conscensus seems to be that it is, with the caviot that anyone else can take it after they've paid their $15 and give it away ir charge less (I guess one way to look at that is that they're making mirrors pay).
Now what I'm wondering is, is this move really smart? I mean I don't remember hearing anything about Libranet before today - if I did I thought, "Just another disto" and promptly forgot about it. In this saturated market for Linux distros with almost everyone (esp the big ones like RH, Deb, SUSE, Mandrake, TL, Slack, insert fav here) giving their distro away for free, how does Libranet hope to ever gain any market share?
Okay, so they give away the previous version. That might work well for ghostscript where there's really no compitition & the product is stable, but that's not the case with Linux distros. I started using Debian back in '97 when my slackware distro wouldn't work on a friend's new machine. A year later I went to using RH because Debian wouldn't run on the new machine I had at work. (For the record I'm now using Mandrake, but I just got Debian and OpenBSD discs to play with.) Given my experience, giving away the old version of a distro is a sure way to drive away potential customers.
I think I actually pay more attention to the commercials now that I've got a TiVo for two reasons
I have to watch closely when I'm fast-forwarding so I don't overshoot
It's easy to go back to watch a commercial that looks interesting.
My wife actually enjoys cirtiquing the commercials as they fly by: her big thing is that if we can't identify what they were selling on a 30-second slot when we're on double fast forward, the advertiser hasn't done their job properly.
I imagine that if you look closely at Verisign's terms and conditions, there's very likely a disclaimer of liability in there.
Oh, you're probably right, which is why you or I would never stand a chance to go up against them if Verisign screwed us over like this, but for all the lawyers that MS has, I imagine that they could make a case that stands up in court (I mean, look at what they pulled at the Antitrust trial - if they can use a defense like "innovation", I'm sure they could find something to attack Verisign with). Of course, IANAL, and even if I were, I wouldn't work for MS.
I'd say it's funny, but then if I were trying to hire, I would say it's worrying. This goes back to the Ask \. a week or so ago about how to improve CS programs - the fact is most CS programs these days don't teach ANSI C - usually it's C++ or, more and more often, Java. Try asking them if they can see what's wrong with:
Somehow, I doubt the results will be too much better, but I'd be really interested to know how how many more people catch the mistake in the C++ version than the C version. If you ever find out, drop me a line.
And why doesn't/. have a <pre> or a <code> tag?
-"Zow"
Re:/. presses about to fall over (too slanted!)
on
New Linux Worm
·
· Score: 2
Right. And I suppose you're going to sit there and claim that you're never hypocritical or apply double standards. If you do, you just proved my point.
Okay, there's plenty to be said about this article, but two things that stand out to me are:
Microsoft is developing an update that rectifies this problem.
And how many people will go to install this update and click "OK" to accept the certificate signed by "Microsoft Corporation"? I mean, they heard that there was some serious problem in Windows, so they better apply this patch right away and the signature on the patch says that it's from MS, so it must be okay, right?
Consider temporarily removing the VeriSign Commercial Software Publishers CA certificate from the Trusted Root Store.
And this will prevent how many commercial web sites from working? "I just did what Microsoft told me to to fix the problem and now I can't buy anything at Amazon - not even with 'One-click' shopping."
Normally, I wouldn't want to see Microsoft take legal action against anyone, but I really think they should ream Verisign a new one for this. Maybe Verisign should learn not to take their job so lightly then.
The general idea is that the code comes with a proof of its safety
I have to agree that this research is very interesting, but everything that I've seen and heard about that requires a formal model of software becomes too complicated to use when applied to anything beyond trivial programs. This may be useful for something like little web applets, but forget trying to do something like a payroll, word processor or language interpreter in it.
-"Zow"
Re:Two things that alone is enough to use zsh
on
To Z Or Not To Z
·
· Score: 2
Does that mean that:
rm **
has much more disastorous consequences than I would normally expect?
Well, it's been a while, but I just now got around to reading this response. ..
There are several things about the question: "Could you get a haircut?".
First, they are indirectly asking you if you'd be willing to conform on little things to the company culture. It can very well be that "Sure, if you really, really want to" is a valid answer, and that actually getting the haircut is not required.
It wasn't posed as a request. I was flat out told that the offer was conditional on my getting a haircut. Saying "No thanks," or "Well, maybe I'll get a little trim," wasn't an option.
I'm told that you'd end up getting the haircut anyway 6 to 12 months later, but that is NOT because your boss asks you to.
You know, the job I ended up taking (where I fit in perfectly) barely has a dress code (they insist that you're dressed), and my long hair did fit in just fine. But I did get the haircut after a few months. That had more to do with moving to the warmer climate though.
Even if they do remove it for you, you might be working with other people for whom they have not. Even then it could be a very bad situation.
I have to say that I agree 100%. And to make more explicit what I think Skapare was getting at: Even if you get the clause removed from your contract/agreement, it is a huge red sign warning you what type of environment they foster at their company. It is most likely one that puts the employees second, whether in their career development or in their personal lives. Career development can be as simple as getting a fair wage for your work. I once worked for a company where I put in 12 hour days for months. Finally yearly raise time came around and they gave me a couple thousand/year more (keep in mind I was already the lowest paid graduate in my class) and then they proceeded to tell me that if I wanted a raise again next year I'd have to work even harder! Having them be understanding of your personal life is like the difference between telling your manager that you have to take the day off because your child/parent/etc is sick and having them say either, "Can't you find someone else to take care of them?" or "Why are you still here? Go!".
Whenever I see something like the IP clause that the poster described, I just say, "Thanks, but no thanks," and move on. Of course, I'm also the guy that turned down a job offer because they wanted me to get a haircut. I just can't stand to work in any sort of environment that doesn't value the individual.
While everything you say may well be true, I think you may be over judgemental on a few points, such as:
the guy who is "writting" it is a very new programmer with unfortuantly a very young attitude
Oh, so just because someone is young and nieve doesn't mean they might have a good idea? I mean, who wants a web browser that supports inline images? And Napster can't be any good - I mean, how stupid could someone be to write a really simple piece of code just to trade music files. Everyone knows the music industry will put an end to that - he was so immature to even try. And how, of all the rediculous things, how could someone leave a good education at Harvard to go write software? (Hey, you may not like him, but you got to admit that they way they started MS when they did took guts.)
it has no planning and the only clear goal is to create an installer
So? Blue Sky Software set out with that lone goal many years ago. They were so successful that they had to change their corporate name to that of their flagship product: InstallShield.
I do realise that KDE needs an installer but unfortualtly is a bit of a way off yet.
Well, rather than whining about it, why don't you go write one? Sound's like that's exactly what this guy decided. The way I read the/. post, it sounded like the project was just starting, which is why they (he) was soliciting help.
You know, I just won't go into the whole apt thing right now. Granted, it's a great installer, I just wish it ran on Mandrake (which I use because it was the easiest to install at the time). I will note that it's a little strange that the best way to install KDE is with apt when not too long ago the Debian folks wouldn't touch KDE with a ten foot pole and that's partially what precipitated the start of Gnome. ..
Well, the 4GB cap on memory with an Intel processor on Linux is causing me some headaches at the moment (massive database stuff). If FreeBSD can do 768GB, I'm so there.
A couple has another couple over for drinks. The wife starts telling this other couple about how her husband was reading this interesting article on how to improve his memory, she then goes to the kitchen to get some ice.
The other couple ask the husband to tell them more. He says, "It's really interesting: it's all about making associations between common things and the thing you're trying to remember."
"Really? Well, how well does it work?"
"It's great, I don't lose any information anymore. I can always figure out what I need to remember."
"So what magazine did you read this in?"
"Well, this is a good chance to demonstrate how the method works because I don't recall right off the top of my head. What's the name of that flower? You know, the one you give on Valentine's day. .."
"You mean a rose?"
"That's it!" The man turns to the kitchen, "Rose, what was the name of that magazine. .."
Actually the laws call it unauthorized copying. Which is what it is. Stealing is taking something away from someone.
Thank you for the correction. You are, of course, correct. The main point I was trying to make is that you're depriving the owner of revinue illegally - revinue that the (copyright) owner is entitled to. I would contrast this with the Warez community, much of which collects Warez not to use, but just because that's what they do. I believe the statement that the SPA's claim of millions of lost sales of some software packages is overstated because an unauthorized copy doesn't mean that software is being used (and by extention, that it should have been purchaced).
Good point. Will this still be possible with the content "protection" that the RIAA wants ?
No. But I will go a step further and note that this level of content protection will not be achieved as it requires rather severe measures such as tying the song to one playback device (so you need a separate copy for home, car & office) or authorization at the time of playback (like Circuit City's Divx did). Consumers have rejected both models repeatedly and I expect (hope) that they will continue to in the future.
Okay - I can't just let some broad open-ended statements like these stand.
As others have mentioned, if you don't think that it's worth $20, don't buy it and don't listen to it. Stealing it (and that's what the law says you're doing regardless of how you feel about it morally) only serves to make that artist more popular which in the end stuffs the pockets of the RIAA even more.
Distribution methods outside the RIAA exist. Have you heard about this little web site called mp3.com? I've never seen an artist there charge more than $10 for an album. This has the added advantage of pissing off the RIAA even more than stealing their music.
Another alternative, if you've just got to have that CD, is buy it used. It's completely legal under the doctorine of first purchace (or whatever it's called exactly) and the money all goes to your local music vendor.
While the mass produced artists like Britney Spears or n'sync certainly fit the description that you've given here, most artists are actually very talented and hard working, but they just aren't hyped the same way these "teen heartthob" artists are, so their album sales are much lower. Here's why that's important: of that $20, artists see less than a dollar, and typically less than $.25. By that model, an artist needs to sell 4 billion albums before they can become a billionare like you claim. I have yet to hear of that happening. More importantly, many of these small name artists will spend months and hundreds of dollars producing an album (studio time ain't cheap) that only sells 10 000 copies. What do they get in return? $2500. They're lucky if they break even. This tends to be the norm for most artists.
So why do they go broke doing this? Here's a newsflash for you: artists actually do something for humanity. We listen to music because we enjoy it and humans have a need to be entertained. It's not as important to us as food & shelter, but given the basic necessities for life, we will tend to seek out entertainment. This is why even the most primitive native tribes around the world play music. So if you don't think that music is important enough to pay for, I'd like to see you live without it.
For the record, I'm not a musician myself but I have a lot of friends that are. I find it amusing that RMS says, "Programming has an irresistible fascination for some people, usually the people who are best at it. There is no shortage of professional musicians who keep at it even though they have no hope of making a living that way," as most of the professional musicians I know spend their nights & weekends doing music, but they program durring the day to pay the bills.
I'm giving in to RSI and looking for a trackball mouse. ..
Keep in mind that a trackball alone won't solve any wrist problems you're having, nor will wrist rests as others have suggested. At best it will reduce the length of time before the problem becomes critical.
The most important thing you can do if you're having any kind of wrist problems is take regular breaks. 5 minutes out of every hour is recommended for all computer users. My theripist told me to take a 5 minute break for ever half hour at the computer. That may seem like a lot of time, but it's nothing compared to the downtime from a serious RSI problem, and I find the time is nice to clear my head and grab some caffinene. There are programs like xwrits (search for it on freshmeat) that will remind you to take regular breaks.
It's also good to do regular wrist stretches / exercises - a quick web search should give examples. I think the combination of breaks and exercises helped me more than my new keyboard, trackball, chair and all that.
Of course, none of this should be considered medical advice (IANAD). If you're having any sort of pain, see a doctor or licensed theripist.
As for trackballs, I got the ITAC Evolution as I wanted an ergonomic trackball with three buttons so I wouldn't have to do button chording to emulate the middle button. I can't say I'm happy with it though since it tends to gunk up a lot and the action isn't smooth. I'm wondering if any of the trackballs being discussed here do all three buttons without chording. Anyone?
I should begin by saying that I'm for nuclear power - I think with today's designs it's much safer to humans and the environment in general than the fosil fuel plans that provide the majority (I believe - haven't looked at the stats lately) of power in the US today.
That said, I take umbridge with the comment: "There is no perfectly clean power source." What about solar? Other "clean" sources such as wind, hydroelectric or geothermal have various arguments against them mostly centering around the collective impact they may have on the environment. However, the only arguments I've ever heard against solar is that it's inefficient and unreliable (clouds). But all indications seem to be that it's perfectly clean.
If anyone has any information to the contrary, please correct me as I'm trying to arrange to install solar panels on my roof, especially given the rising cost and decreasing reliability of the power grid in California. I wouldn't want to put anything on my roof that'll give me cancer!
Speaking of which, if anyone knows of a place that does solar power panel sales and installation in the S.F. Bay Area, please let me know. The guy I was talking to locally is retired and hence, not very committed.
I will grant that you have a point, and besides the obvious counterpoint of "What's wrong with Hero worship?", I would make the point that this is News for Nerds as it has obvious consequences with regards to future kernel development. Others have already asked "What impact will this have on the 2.4 release?" I will note, assuming my memory is accurate, that Linus's near burnout in 1998 was not that long after the birth of his first daughter. It seems to be a growing phenomina (where's that spell checker?) among tech workers as the industry expands & matures that work-life issues like balancing the next release of a kernel that an entire industry segment is based on and spending quality time with family really can pull on a person.
Slashdot Mirror
Okay, most of the discussion that I've seen centers around the point of "is this legal or not?" The conscensus seems to be that it is, with the caviot that anyone else can take it after they've paid their $15 and give it away ir charge less (I guess one way to look at that is that they're making mirrors pay).
Now what I'm wondering is, is this move really smart? I mean I don't remember hearing anything about Libranet before today - if I did I thought, "Just another disto" and promptly forgot about it. In this saturated market for Linux distros with almost everyone (esp the big ones like RH, Deb, SUSE, Mandrake, TL, Slack, insert fav here) giving their distro away for free, how does Libranet hope to ever gain any market share?
Okay, so they give away the previous version. That might work well for ghostscript where there's really no compitition & the product is stable, but that's not the case with Linux distros. I started using Debian back in '97 when my slackware distro wouldn't work on a friend's new machine. A year later I went to using RH because Debian wouldn't run on the new machine I had at work. (For the record I'm now using Mandrake, but I just got Debian and OpenBSD discs to play with.) Given my experience, giving away the old version of a distro is a sure way to drive away potential customers.
-"Zow"
Humm. . . Let's do the math. . . $10.
By Libranet's reconing, that's enough for, like, two cups of coffee.
-"Zow"
I think I actually pay more attention to the commercials now that I've got a TiVo for two reasons
My wife actually enjoys cirtiquing the commercials as they fly by: her big thing is that if we can't identify what they were selling on a 30-second slot when we're on double fast forward, the advertiser hasn't done their job properly.
-"Zow"
Oh, you're probably right, which is why you or I would never stand a chance to go up against them if Verisign screwed us over like this, but for all the lawyers that MS has, I imagine that they could make a case that stands up in court (I mean, look at what they pulled at the Antitrust trial - if they can use a defense like "innovation", I'm sure they could find something to attack Verisign with). Of course, IANAL, and even if I were, I wouldn't work for MS.
-"Zow"
Post to Ask /.! You'll get so many responses from people who are looking for such positions that you're sure to find someone who'll fit the bill.
-"Zow"
I'd say it's funny, but then if I were trying to hire, I would say it's worrying. This goes back to the Ask \. a week or so ago about how to improve CS programs - the fact is most CS programs these days don't teach ANSI C - usually it's C++ or, more and more often, Java. Try asking them if they can see what's wrong with:
/. have a <pre> or a <code> tag?
void echo() {
char *str;
cin >> str;
cout << str;
}
Somehow, I doubt the results will be too much better, but I'd be really interested to know how how many more people catch the mistake in the C++ version than the C version. If you ever find out, drop me a line.
And why doesn't
-"Zow"
Right. And I suppose you're going to sit there and claim that you're never hypocritical or apply double standards. If you do, you just proved my point.
-"Zow"
Okay, there's plenty to be said about this article, but two things that stand out to me are:
And how many people will go to install this update and click "OK" to accept the certificate signed by "Microsoft Corporation"? I mean, they heard that there was some serious problem in Windows, so they better apply this patch right away and the signature on the patch says that it's from MS, so it must be okay, right?
And this will prevent how many commercial web sites from working? "I just did what Microsoft told me to to fix the problem and now I can't buy anything at Amazon - not even with 'One-click' shopping."
Normally, I wouldn't want to see Microsoft take legal action against anyone, but I really think they should ream Verisign a new one for this. Maybe Verisign should learn not to take their job so lightly then.
-"Zow"
I have to agree that this research is very interesting, but everything that I've seen and heard about that requires a formal model of software becomes too complicated to use when applied to anything beyond trivial programs. This may be useful for something like little web applets, but forget trying to do something like a payroll, word processor or language interpreter in it.
-"Zow"
Does that mean that:
rm **has much more disastorous consequences than I would normally expect?
-"Zow"
Okay - I just want to know who the moderator was that said this was informative.
I have to admit, it's a (5, Funny) though.
-"Zow"
Well, it's been a while, but I just now got around to reading this response. . .
It wasn't posed as a request. I was flat out told that the offer was conditional on my getting a haircut. Saying "No thanks," or "Well, maybe I'll get a little trim," wasn't an option.
You know, the job I ended up taking (where I fit in perfectly) barely has a dress code (they insist that you're dressed), and my long hair did fit in just fine. But I did get the haircut after a few months. That had more to do with moving to the warmer climate though.
-"Zow"
I have to say that I agree 100%. And to make more explicit what I think Skapare was getting at: Even if you get the clause removed from your contract/agreement, it is a huge red sign warning you what type of environment they foster at their company. It is most likely one that puts the employees second, whether in their career development or in their personal lives. Career development can be as simple as getting a fair wage for your work. I once worked for a company where I put in 12 hour days for months. Finally yearly raise time came around and they gave me a couple thousand/year more (keep in mind I was already the lowest paid graduate in my class) and then they proceeded to tell me that if I wanted a raise again next year I'd have to work even harder! Having them be understanding of your personal life is like the difference between telling your manager that you have to take the day off because your child/parent/etc is sick and having them say either, "Can't you find someone else to take care of them?" or "Why are you still here? Go!".
Whenever I see something like the IP clause that the poster described, I just say, "Thanks, but no thanks," and move on. Of course, I'm also the guy that turned down a job offer because they wanted me to get a haircut. I just can't stand to work in any sort of environment that doesn't value the individual.
My $.02,
-"Zow"
While everything you say may well be true, I think you may be over judgemental on a few points, such as:
the guy who is "writting" it is a very new programmer with unfortuantly a very young attitudeOh, so just because someone is young and nieve doesn't mean they might have a good idea? I mean, who wants a web browser that supports inline images? And Napster can't be any good - I mean, how stupid could someone be to write a really simple piece of code just to trade music files. Everyone knows the music industry will put an end to that - he was so immature to even try. And how, of all the rediculous things, how could someone leave a good education at Harvard to go write software? (Hey, you may not like him, but you got to admit that they way they started MS when they did took guts.)
it has no planning and the only clear goal is to create an installerSo? Blue Sky Software set out with that lone goal many years ago. They were so successful that they had to change their corporate name to that of their flagship product: InstallShield.
I do realise that KDE needs an installer but unfortualtly is a bit of a way off yet.Well, rather than whining about it, why don't you go write one? Sound's like that's exactly what this guy decided. The way I read the /. post, it sounded like the project was just starting, which is why they (he) was soliciting help.
You know, I just won't go into the whole apt thing right now. Granted, it's a great installer, I just wish it ran on Mandrake (which I use because it was the easiest to install at the time). I will note that it's a little strange that the best way to install KDE is with apt when not too long ago the Debian folks wouldn't touch KDE with a ten foot pole and that's partially what precipitated the start of Gnome. . .
-"Zow"
Well, the 4GB cap on memory with an Intel processor on Linux is causing me some headaches at the moment (massive database stuff). If FreeBSD can do 768GB, I'm so there.
-"Zow"
A couple has another couple over for drinks. The wife starts telling this other couple about how her husband was reading this interesting article on how to improve his memory, she then goes to the kitchen to get some ice.
The other couple ask the husband to tell them more. He says, "It's really interesting: it's all about making associations between common things and the thing you're trying to remember."
"Really? Well, how well does it work?"
"It's great, I don't lose any information anymore. I can always figure out what I need to remember."
"So what magazine did you read this in?"
"Well, this is a good chance to demonstrate how the method works because I don't recall right off the top of my head. What's the name of that flower? You know, the one you give on Valentine's day. . ."
"You mean a rose?"
"That's it!" The man turns to the kitchen, "Rose, what was the name of that magazine. . ."
Thank you for the correction. You are, of course, correct. The main point I was trying to make is that you're depriving the owner of revinue illegally - revinue that the (copyright) owner is entitled to. I would contrast this with the Warez community, much of which collects Warez not to use, but just because that's what they do. I believe the statement that the SPA's claim of millions of lost sales of some software packages is overstated because an unauthorized copy doesn't mean that software is being used (and by extention, that it should have been purchaced).
Good point. Will this still be possible with the content "protection" that the RIAA wants ?No. But I will go a step further and note that this level of content protection will not be achieved as it requires rather severe measures such as tying the song to one playback device (so you need a separate copy for home, car & office) or authorization at the time of playback (like Circuit City's Divx did). Consumers have rejected both models repeatedly and I expect (hope) that they will continue to in the future.
-"Zow"
Okay - I can't just let some broad open-ended statements like these stand.
For the record, I'm not a musician myself but I have a lot of friends that are. I find it amusing that RMS says, "Programming has an irresistible fascination for some people, usually the people who are best at it. There is no shortage of professional musicians who keep at it even though they have no hope of making a living that way," as most of the professional musicians I know spend their nights & weekends doing music, but they program durring the day to pay the bills.
My 2 bits,
-"Zow"
Excellent. I'll check it out.
Thanks!
-"Zow"
Okay, if you can't use it, how do you know that it works?
-"Zow"
Keep in mind that a trackball alone won't solve any wrist problems you're having, nor will wrist rests as others have suggested. At best it will reduce the length of time before the problem becomes critical.
The most important thing you can do if you're having any kind of wrist problems is take regular breaks. 5 minutes out of every hour is recommended for all computer users. My theripist told me to take a 5 minute break for ever half hour at the computer. That may seem like a lot of time, but it's nothing compared to the downtime from a serious RSI problem, and I find the time is nice to clear my head and grab some caffinene. There are programs like xwrits (search for it on freshmeat) that will remind you to take regular breaks.
It's also good to do regular wrist stretches / exercises - a quick web search should give examples. I think the combination of breaks and exercises helped me more than my new keyboard, trackball, chair and all that.
Of course, none of this should be considered medical advice (IANAD). If you're having any sort of pain, see a doctor or licensed theripist.
As for trackballs, I got the ITAC Evolution as I wanted an ergonomic trackball with three buttons so I wouldn't have to do button chording to emulate the middle button. I can't say I'm happy with it though since it tends to gunk up a lot and the action isn't smooth. I'm wondering if any of the trackballs being discussed here do all three buttons without chording. Anyone?
-"Zow"
I should begin by saying that I'm for nuclear power - I think with today's designs it's much safer to humans and the environment in general than the fosil fuel plans that provide the majority (I believe - haven't looked at the stats lately) of power in the US today.
That said, I take umbridge with the comment: "There is no perfectly clean power source." What about solar? Other "clean" sources such as wind, hydroelectric or geothermal have various arguments against them mostly centering around the collective impact they may have on the environment. However, the only arguments I've ever heard against solar is that it's inefficient and unreliable (clouds). But all indications seem to be that it's perfectly clean.
If anyone has any information to the contrary, please correct me as I'm trying to arrange to install solar panels on my roof, especially given the rising cost and decreasing reliability of the power grid in California. I wouldn't want to put anything on my roof that'll give me cancer!
Speaking of which, if anyone knows of a place that does solar power panel sales and installation in the S.F. Bay Area, please let me know. The guy I was talking to locally is retired and hence, not very committed.
-"Zow"
I will grant that you have a point, and besides the obvious counterpoint of "What's wrong with Hero worship?", I would make the point that this is News for Nerds as it has obvious consequences with regards to future kernel development. Others have already asked "What impact will this have on the 2.4 release?" I will note, assuming my memory is accurate, that Linus's near burnout in 1998 was not that long after the birth of his first daughter. It seems to be a growing phenomina (where's that spell checker?) among tech workers as the industry expands & matures that work-life issues like balancing the next release of a kernel that an entire industry segment is based on and spending quality time with family really can pull on a person.
Just my $.02,
-"Zow"
Okay, this was a quick search & count, so my count may be slightly off, but. . .
Number of times that John says. . .
Linux: 45
Open Source: 22
Indrema: 20
Note: I only counted the number of times that John used those words - I ignored the questions.
-"Zow"
No.
I never said that the article shouldn't have been posted. Just that it may have been /. fodder. Nothing wrong with that. I rather enjoyed it, actually.