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TiVo Usage Info Collected For Sale
therevan writes: "Headline News reports here that TiVo, the digital television recording technology, has been accused by privacy groups of selling user usage info to advertising agencies. Now you're not even safe with your computer unplugged." Though no specific sale is talked about, the article says that TiVO has acknowleged creating an (anonymized) database of viewing information for that purpose. It's not the first time that privacy concerns about TiVO viewing habits have been raised, but the company insist that all such information is separated from personally identifying information.
Within a year, we'll see someone maintain an organization called 'FreeVO'. FreeVO will include instructions on how to hack your TiVO to work with the FreeVO servers instead. FreeVO will provide all the same services (TV listings, and ?) TiVO does, only without soliciting or collecting private info. The source for FreeVO's servers and clients will be GPL'd, providing further evidence that privacy is not sacrificed.
Just because TiVo says its "anonymous" dosen't make it so. Of course, corporations are always honest, trust worthy and they always tell the truth. If you believe that.. I've got some land in Florida I want to sell you.
Used by gun rights defenders who insist that explosive rounds should not be outlawed.
Used by abortion rights defenders who insist that partial-birth abortions should be legal.
Used by people who read "Brave New World" too many times who insist that all cloning and stem-cell research should be banned.
Used by Zionists who insist that the Gaza Strip should not be given over to Palestine, even though it was never within ancient Israel's borders.
Used by reactionary red-baiters who insist we should be alarmed that a Chinese-owned company now controls the Panama Canal.
What I'm saying here is that all "slippery slope" arguments are bullshit attempts, by extremists, to supress the sensible, moderate view.
(With appologies to any extremists who I may have offended. Please don't shoot me.)
Yes, but as a TiVo user, I can tell you now, not only do I rarely watch something "live" or even close to live, I don't even know when anything is on anymore. I never have shows where I have a problem with "catching up", because once you get used to the tivo, you stop timing your tv-watching habits around when specific things are on.
WWJD? JWRTFM!!!
Abso-fucking-lutely right -- inasmuch as criminal law is concerned. Civil law is an entirely different matter.
Should making shoddy cars be illegal? What's next, throwing people in jail for dereferencing null pointers? Whether someone's job is done poorly enough to make them unfit to do it is something best determined by those who actually make use of their work, no? How can /you/ claim to be able to better make that decision?
Even the meat-packing plants -- if they can withstand the public protest brought up by the media, and they don't actually harm anyone (thus resulting in civil sanctions) more power to 'em! Government involvement is (and was) unnecessary and should not have occured.
Fine. I don't care. As you might surmise from my previous post, I don't think the government has any particular reason to be rating meat packing plants anyhow -- so why should it bother or surprise me that they're doing a bad job?
However, let's presume for a moment that these 5000 people really did die. This has:
Now, if the number of people like you is large enough to warrant it, no doubt some vendor of meats would go through the effort to clean up their plant, invite the media in to inspect it, run an advertising blitz, whatever. If that hasn't happened, it means that not enough people care -- that 5,000 deaths a year is not sufficient to justify to society the increased cost of meats which would be associated with this cleanup. Hey, if that's what the market decides, I'm happy with it.
In short, I don't see what the problem is here.
No problem at all. They can track my TV watching all they want, I have no reason to not want that.
Heck, I'd even let them do it non-anonymously.
I personally don't mind what they do with the data as long as my name is not attached to it. If it helps Tivo be profitable and survive against an increasing field of (more unscrupulous) competators, let them. The Tivo is great and i would be really unhappy if they were not successful and were forced out of the market and I had to go to a vendor such as M$ that really does not give a shit about the customer the way the Tive does.
The difference between Canada and the USA is that in Canada healthcare is a right and gun ownership is a privilege.
Well, if you don't like it and don't care about the 'extra' features (and assuming your box isn't set up to die a hideous death if it can't phone home) go get a $30 or so powered cable amplifier or splitter at radio shack or equivalent. They're commonly used in setups where you inject your own programming into the house cable system, and don't want to annoy the cable company or the neighbors. Cheap and effective.
"'Tis great confidence in a friend to tell him your faults, greater to tell him his." --Poor Richard's Almanac
If I remember correctly, I remember this being spelled out clearly at some point during TiVo set up, or in the manual somewhere. This isn't surprising, or news, they were up front. They were also up front about the fact that they were decoupling the personal information. Hell, I don't care if my viewing habits are studied, as long as I'M not studied as an individual. All it can do is improve the quality of dribble that's being put on the toob.
G
Oh, yeah, and I would rather the broadcasters knew what shows I watch so they can put more like them on the air. I would rather they know what commercials I watch, and what I skip over so they can get more entertaining ones. But that's just my opinion, you can always opt-out, it's an 800 number, and I hear it only takes a few minutes.
P.S. slashdot covered this quite a while ago, when they contrasted this with ReplayTV's policy. I didn't own either box at the time, so I didn't pay all that much attention...
Two problems:
You can only skip commercials if you are watching far enough behind real time (i.e. if an hour of TV has 15 min of commercials, and I start 10 minutes late, I can only skip over 10 minutes of commercials). Plus some commercials are actually entertaining, or for things you might want to see (like a commercial for a new TV show, or movie, or maybe you like the new VW or Apple commercials).
I watch most of my TV long after it has stopped being live (TiVo catches 3 or 4 Star Treks overnight, and I delete most of them because I have seen them, but some are ones I have missed and watch...it catches 3 or 4 ERs a day too, if I'm in the mood I watch, otherwise they get autodeleted, it picks up all my primetime TV too, most I'm not in a big hurry to watch).
A few shows I end up watching close to live because I "can't wait", like Buffy, or the new showings of ER. When I catch up to live I either watch commercials (while surfing on my 802.11 connected laptop), or I have the TiVo show me something it recorded before until I think I have "enough slack", or I'm sucked into the old show (a 30min commercial TV show can be watched in about 18min, so it provides enough slack for a 1hour commercial TV show...). Plus I like the VW ads, and some of the Apple ads, and...
So they know someone in 22032 watches Sopranos, and Buffy, and Nova, and... They don't know it is me. If they did, and it influenced a hiring choice, then I wouldn't have wanted to work for or with them anyway. I'm done with collage, so that leaves me with just the home loan to worry about. I doubt knowing that someone in my zipcode watches a show is going to change that.
If it is a big deal to you, call 1-877-FOR-TIVO (se page 72 of your manual) and opt-out. Now it really is a small deal isn't it?
Really? I can't seem to find it.
The satalite (and I assume cable) smut-o-vision is pretty lame anyway. Your better off going to the local video store, or buying DVDs or something. :-)
T hey don't do that currently. Mostly because they can't do it on their server (it doesn't know what *you* watch), and the server would have to send too much data to your end (it would have to tell your TiVo that watching Judge Judy and QVC and blah-blah means you may want this other thing, even though you don't watch any of that!).
Thumb's up and down also aren't sent anywhere, I think that is covered on page 70 :-) so it only knows what you watched, not how much you claim to like it.
There is talk of an opt-in service for that, but I think that is all TiVo users talking, not TiVo itself. Similarly web control of the TiVo would break the privacy policy, which is a big part of why they don't have it (and ReplayTV does).
I wasn't refering to what the software can/can't do, just to the promise that TiVo makes on page 70 of the manual "The TiVo Service has no way of knowing what shows you have given "Thumbs Up" or "Thumbs Down" to". That is explained in a little more detail on page 71 as well.
Yes, I didn't mean to imply the policy prevented opt-in agreements to sent/use more personal data. I was saying TiVo themselves have not said what these services would be, and the only people I have heard talking about it are not on the TiVo payroll (i.e. arn't RB, just other AVS wankers like Otto...er, I mean AVS members like that stripes fellow....). Of corse I think you have read more of the AVS stuff then I have, so you may have seen RB say something I missed.
I can dream up half a dozen opt-in services, but that doesn't mean TiVo is working on any of them.
The stuff in the manual isn't hidden fine print. It is normal size print. It is listed in the table of contents as "Privacy and Service". If someone gives a rat's ass about privacy and doesn't at least skim the manual, I can't say I care.
It's a lot like someone who only wants a full-size spare not bothering to look in the trunk before they buy the car. Should I care about them?
As long as you have stopped watching such shows by then it won't matter. The current loging isn't linked to the unit, so even if they later change the privacy policy then they will still not be able to link up my old data with my old habits.
Of corse I'm still screwed because I'm sure "DVD Empire" remembers what I have bought from them, and CD Now knows all the "violent lyric" music I've bought, and...
Page 73 is fairly clear on what they collect, and they encurage you to phone them up and ask for a copy of data they collect, or opt-out if it bugs you. I assume anyone who really cares, knows how to read, and has five free minutes has done the opt-out.
What would you do to make it more clear if you were TiVo? I don't think making it opt-in is an option, because they need the money, and short of that it seems like they have done everything I think they should.
Yeah, and they do seem like the think ahead type.
Chapter 7 "Privacy and Service" starts on page 71 of my manual, page 73 lists the "1-877-FOR-TIVO (1-877-367-8486)" number as the one to call to review the data TiVo has sent, or to have it all deleted and your TiVo to not send more.
It defanalty isn't hidden. The print isn't even any smaller then the rest of the plain text in the manual.
There is an opt-in bonus, it's just that everyone gets it even if they have opted out.
The bonus is that TiVo stays in business and we get better quality advertising and a TiVo box that remains useful for the long-term.
-Simon
TiVo has never made a secret that this happens. You can fairly easily view the logs that are sent to TiVo. They are detailed DOWN to every button press. Yes, TiVo knows that someone (though not a specific person) freeze framed on
Lucy Lawless when she got out of that bath.I know I did) You can opt out of this with a single phone call.
But, hell, I want TiVo to be a success. I want them to still be around in the future, this means they have to make money, and this information is GOLD to advertisers. TiVo can easily work out which adverts people REALLY watch - this is a good thing.
-Simon
Sigh...Letterman's humorous gripes were just that, humor. And in any event they were about TiVo's (sometimes less than perfect) suggestions which can be turned off easily, not about privacy.
And the only information they'd get from UUNet is the fact that, yes, your phone DID dial the UUNet POP and log into the TiVo service last night. Big deal. That's not much use to anyone. Maybe telemarketers who already have your phone number anyway.
Extra phone calls? I've had TiVo service for 6 months, and never ONCE been called. By anyone.
Um, have you ever watched TV? The ads are inserted during the programming. Except for PBS, of course.
My understanding is that this is at the request of the TiVo people - They've been very favourable to hacking, under the general condition that said hackers don't screw with their revenue stream. Once their revenue stream gets affected, you can bet that they'll lock this beast down tighter than a drum, and then there will be no joy in Mudville for anyone.
I would imagine much of TiVo was designed with this capability ultimately in mind. I wouldn't mind getting the service for a discount if I consented to my viewing habits being sold, or for free if they actually attached my name to it.
and the provider of the information should be compensated.
Um... maybe Tivo will continue to exist as an independent company? TV producers will (maybe) sell more relevant ads and therefore continue producing shows? Shouldn't those things be compensation enough? Right now, unless TV advertising becomes much more effective, TV channels are facing the same long term situation as web sites- they have a lot of ads that aren't relevant and that people ignore. If Tivo can help make those ads more relevant before the ad people figure out they are wasting their money then more power to them.
~luge
IAAL,BIANLY
I was very amused when I read about how they interpreted the button press data: They think if I always fastforward through the commercials on the Simpsons (for example) then the commercials on the Simpsons must really suck, but if I rarely fastforward through the commercials on Friends, then those must be really good, well targeted commercials. In reality it is completely the opposite. If I am actually paying attention to a show (like the Simpsons) then I will always fastforward through the commercials, but if the show is nearly meaningless to me (like Friends) then I don't fastforward through the commercials because I am probably in the kitchen washing dishes or something where I can't even see the TV.
I wish the best to Tivo, and I hope they can pull huge amounts of money from the networks and advertisers for all of my "data", but I reserve the right to laugh at their interpretation.
They have not specified what the extra hours are for, but I am pretty convinced it is for some type of targetted ads. 12 hours could never be filled over the phone line, so it has to be something sucked down from the airwaves, which is either pay-per-view or targeted ads, and ads seems more realistic.
Tivo has been told, and I hope they understand, that the users won't mind targetted ads as long as they in no way impact our viewing, as soon as we are forced to watch ads then all "well behaved" hacking stops, and we all learn how to hack the guide data and cancel our subscriptions.
I have the same functionality as Tivo with my TV tuner video capture board and a honking great hard drive (3x80Gb).
Same functionality?!? Certainly if you only watch three channels. But, TiVo does more than digitally record television shows.
I have TiVo looking for any documentary about two topics I'm interested in: Titanic and Egypt. I don't care what channel the shows are on. And TiVo will look and record them, when available.
Also, I like Nicholas Cage. And TiVo was told to record all Nicholas Cage movies. Is this functionality available with just a TV tuner and a huge hard drive?
Oh, and check out the TiVo Hack FAQ. Yes, you can upgrade the disk in the box. There's more to TiVo than just recording shows like a VCR.
At a restaurant we would go to the back with our credit card to swipe it, create our own ticket, sign it and put it in the deposit slip of the restaurant. Instead of handing the waiter our card. He could be buying stuff with it in between the time he left the table and comes back. We would walk around with paper bags on our heads. We would sue friends for using our names in conversations.
These privacy groups are a little bit too radical. Do we really want to go so far with privacy that the net is completely useless? I don't mind the slight invasion of privacy if I can use such a great tool as the internet to make life easier.
IRNI
Just wanted to plug my Tivo Web Project. It is designed to give you a web interface to you TiVo that is more powerful than the native interface. And look for a release supporting 2.0 soon.
TiVo has actually gone to lengths to make sure they CAN'T associate the data. The uploaded logs include a randomized number instead of the serial number and is stripped of all identifying information. About the only way they could, would be to get the call logs from the UUNet dialups and associate them to the uploaded data. And hopefully those logs aren't kept around very long.
First, I understand it was ment to be funny, but I thought it was a point worth making.
Second, I'm not so sure. They use UUNet pops if one is available or a 1-800 number otherwise. I'm not sure if different numbers in the same city would use the different IPs or not. But assuming they use the same IP space, the max you could determine would be the the city. And they already break it down by zip code.
Third, crypted doesn't really matter as it is sent over phone lines whick are hard to sniff. And we have hacked to box and can see what data they are collected before it is encrypted.
Forth, while that may be true, they have always had a strong privacy policy and strong commitment to keep it. And assuming they can't currently match data to individuals, that would only apply to future data, not to what is currently stored.
The information gathered is completely seperate from your identity and Tivo has always been up front about this.
In fact during beta I had to sign a release to allow Tivo to connect certain uploaded information to my account so they could debug a potential problem.
These guys are pro-privacy, they're not about to become Big Brother anytime soon.
I think I actually pay more attention to the commercials now that I've got a TiVo for two reasons
My wife actually enjoys cirtiquing the commercials as they fly by: her big thing is that if we can't identify what they were selling on a 30-second slot when we're on double fast forward, the advertiser hasn't done their job properly.
-"Zow"
W/ Digital TV after all why don't they just run commercials continuously in a subwindow or along the bottom or overlayed transparently or with an additional audio track. This is all about revenue it's not about programming. So if they want to generate more revenue eg. more 'hits' then they should run commercials continuously. That way they could avoid commercial breaks and we wouldn't be able to escape the adds or skip over them. I mean, what other earthly purpose could there be for this. Does anyone for example really want to see the director's cut of Coyote Ugly? Who gives a shit - just run a digital feed be it broadcast or DVD and force us to watch continual ads. I also want to see ads inside of music videos either inline or cutaway. We don't have attention spans that can last a whole video so we need a break. A commercial is a good thing to put there. Likewise radio cuts. Instead of those lame homebrew mixes just cut in commercials. We can have Biggie and Tupac live on selling shit. I also believe with all my heart that movie theaters need to start cutting away every few minutes for commercials.
I've got a TiVo and one can only HOPE that they are selling my usage information. They will see that I never ever watch "The Golden Girls" but I do watch "Babylon 5". Maybe the networks will get a clue.
If tits were wings it'd be flying around.
As far as wasted disk space for ads goes, after my tivo was updated to 2.0.1 I got an extra two minutes on my 30 hour sony pvr.
Also, Tivo's privacy policy is posted on their web site, and you can opt out of even the "anonymous" information sharing scheme with a simple phone call.
Personal data - stuff that identifies you by name - is never "shared" with Tivo's partners unless you actuallyt OPT IN!
As a previous poster said, the privacy protectors are out of line on this one.
Hopefully they will move on to more important battles (there are many!)
D
ELITISM: It's always lonely at the top. Uninvited company is rarely welcome.
They call them Stanalone Units (SA) because they also market DirecTivo units that are jointly licensed with DirecTV.
Check out the Tivo forum on AVS (www.avsforum.com) if you want more information.
D
ELITISM: It's always lonely at the top. Uninvited company is rarely welcome.
If it won't make TV any better, it certainlyl won't speed the rapid decline of mass TV.
Being able to "slice and dice" TV material is empowering for viewers. It means that we can filter the drivel before it drowns us.
Tivo is also a linux based platforms that contributes to kernel development. That, and the fact that I am now dependent upon it for real control over my TV watching time (which is in very meager supply) is enough to sell me on the system.
The company is also really cool with hardware hackers who add functionality to their boxes.
D
ELITISM: It's always lonely at the top. Uninvited company is rarely welcome.
TiVo is paranoid enough about your privacy that when they do upload the viewing logs, they are given a creation date and time that's bogus so they can't be matched to the "public" logs. Or to the time you called in. Even if I knew when you called and what you watched and had access, I'd have no way of matching which viewing log went with which machine.
Naturally, no one at the "Privacy Foundation" sought to see what was implemented on the *server* side of the process to ensure anyone's privacy.
But, getting back to all this, why is such information useful? Because shows are expensive to produce. Because airtime is expensive. Because the information about what someone who watches A also watches might be of interest to someone. Like an advertiser.
Perhaps, in the future, better information will help prevent cancelling my favorite shows (like Total Recall 2070 and Cleopatra 2525). Perhaps companies will realize the value of syndication for hour-long quality dramas. Perhaps it'll help open more markets.
And, while I'm in the middle of this commentary, perhaps it'll mean that we get MORE diversity in shows. For example, science fiction author Steven Barnes makes the point that the first show in which an African-American actor: 1) received top billing; 2) for an hour-long drama; 3) that lasted more than one season was Avery Brooks for Star Trek: Deep Space Nine. Isn't that about 40 years too late?
And so we have Gina Torres, a Hispanic African-American actress, who may well be the second. And the show gets cancelled. Yeah, Cleo isn't exactly as serious as DS9, but it is a solid show. If you care, please write to feedback@studiosusa.com and program@www.scifi.com. After all, it's better than half the original series on SciFi.
_Deirdre
There are already at least a dozen people out there who know how to hack the guide data. They just haven't been spreading the info around very much.
This is just like television, only you can see much further.
The "stolen" hours you refer to are a bogeyman of the 2.0 upgrade that's been blown way out of proportion.
What TiVo SAID was that uses who have upgraded their A drive (not the B drive) will lose a portion of the space when they get 2.0 due to the way they did it. They were just giving people some fair warning.
Since upgrading the A drive is really difficult, I doubt this will affect many people.
This is just like television, only you can see much further.
With the Tivo it is trivial to record all your shows. Also you can watch a show and skip the commercials at the same time. (They can play and record simultaneously)
So, even if I want to watch a prime time lineup, I just start watching a little later in the evening. A 20-30 minutes delay for each hour of TV lets me skip all the commercials.
It is hard to describe the difference between a PVR and VCR. It isn't just a VCR with a disk. It is a whole new interface to TV. Yes, it sounds like an add, but even my parents saw the difference in a few days after I bought them a Tivo.
Actually I prefer Coca-Cola. Don't endorsements make more money? :-)
The biggest problem with Tivo selling the data is that the television networks are going to figure out that Tivo users never watch commercials! I watch almost nothing in real-time and always skip the commercials. It's great, but not what television executives want to hear. There was a piece on 60 minutes recently about PVRs. This was one of their main points, if people don't watch ads then they lose the revenue to sustain the shows. They suggested in-program product placements (the hero holds up a pepsi) and pay-per-view for normal TV as alternatives. They are expecting PVRs to be the biggest commercial electonics product launch in history. (faster then CDs, DVDs, etc) We're already seeing the problems web sites are having with being advertiser driven. The only thing stopping people from doing that with TV was that it was difficult. Now PVRs make it really easy. It'l be interesting to see how it works out.
If I can skip commercials, maybe this will somehow help keep mainstream TV free. Actually, maybe it'd be better if advertisers abandoned TV and we had to pay for it, 'cause then I wouldn't watch it at all.
That would be really silly to create the whole Tvio box from the ground up. Just make a server act like their service. Should be mostly trivial compared to the ethernet hack for it.
Actually I am very suprised that it hasn't happened. yet.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
Is it any surprise that a large corporation uses your demographic info to target ads, make money, etc?
I do not agree with it, but it is so present in our (american) society, most people don't even care anymore.
But there is a way we can fight back.
Have as many people as possible use your grocery card, TiVO, pet club card, and whatnot. Give them such a random sampling of as many people as possible, give them fake info when you sign up for thier incentives. It may not do much, but tell your friends, have them tell thier friends.
Eventually they will be getting so much bad data, they may just quit.
You say you want a revolution....
How does this hurt me? Nobody got my name. Nobody got my phone number. I lost nothing. My privacy wasn't even invaded, because all they know is that some people like watching certain shows in certain proportions.
I really don't see the problem. I want them to know what shows I watch. That way they might make more of them.
_____
My Journal
Digital Cable receivers also transmit data back to the Cable Company. On the plus side it helps the customer order PPV events in a trivial fashion. On the minus side... er... um... that's only known to the Cable Company.
I put my address down, if it's a site I'm actually interested in seeing because there is garbage can right next to my mail box -- I could care less about receiving the junk.
Since I have moved into this apartment (last August) I have probably registered at 20-25 places and the only snail mail response I got from any of them was from LinuxWorld Expo.
I think a lot of people (not saying you) are really blowing the privacy concerns out of proportion. Why is it such an invasion of privacy that some company knows what sites you look at? Guess what, so does your ISP it doesn't make them the devil.
Dacels Jewelers can't be trusted.
Yeah, the data is pretty worthless. However unlike Comet Curosr or Real Player, or any of the other things you mentioned, Tivo actually provides a very useful service using the data.
And quite frankly what the hell would my boss care if I watch porn sometimes? I don't work for the church. I work in the technology industry which is partly driven by porn. As long as it does not interfere with my work I could be a raging crackhead and they wouldn't care. The only people who should be worried are the slackers who don't do crap at work in the first place. Then it is just an excuse to get rid of their lazy asses.
Stop being so paranoid. Nobody cares about you. You are unimportant.
Q.
And tell me how is this supposed to make your television viewing better, huh? This will just result in TV program being adjusted to the lowest common denominator (not that it's not already) and quality programs that are targeted at a bit more discerning viewers will disappear altogether.
Well, for one thing it will help networks determine the viewing habits of people who timeshift TV. Neilsen can't do that reliably (only with the diaries). What does that mean in practice? It means that people who actually are discerning viewers will get more weight in the process, and quality shows will look better than just the crap that happens to be on after Friends this month.
I own 2 TiVos. God knows I can't make any money selling my viewing info (who the hell cares what I watch on TV, anyway?), but if TiVo can do it by aggregating my data with that of a quarter million other people, more power to them!
My Blog. Sela Ward can sell me long distanc
-James
We (the TiVo using community) knew they were collecting anonymous information. What did you *think* they were going to use it for?
:)
Does it really matter what we think? I mean, this is Slashdot, for crisakes! Hysteria is the order of the day!
I must have missed the bit where they go out of their way to make sure I can opt out. Do I need to send them a letter, or what? Not that I really care as long as its anonymous, but what if the company gets sold? Then they'll find out just how many cartoons I watch. Oh, the shame.
I, for one, agree with this sentiment. It seems to be taken for granted that this private data actually translates into mega-value, but where's the numbers to show this?
---
- Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set him on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.
1-877-FOR-TIVO. Same number as it says in the manual. Call up and request to opt-out.
---
- Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set him on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.
It is not said what the extra space is set aside for, however, it is not "stolen" from you, it's more like a side effect of changes to the software in 2.0.
And I doubt it's for "targeted ads" as that seems a bit silly.
---
- Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set him on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.
It's a stalemate situation. As long as Tivo does nothing to piss off its customers, then there is no reason to hack the thing to the point where you screw with Tivo's revenue stream. We like Tivo, the company. They are cool. They have a fairly good grasp of "the right way" to do things. They also know damn well how easy it would be for someone to hack a unit to not require service, and so they walk the thin line.
:D
I'm satisied with the arrangement. It keeps them honest.
---
- Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set him on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.
I knew when I got a plus card that I was basically being paid for my demographic data. It's a bit different around here though..
Every item in the store has two prices. One with the card, one without. The one with the card is generally anywhere from 20% to 50% lower than the one without.
So I go in, buy $50 worth of stuff, swipe the card, and watch it turn to $30. And the prices without the card are comparable to other local stores, so you really are getting a discount.
What do they get in return for this? It's obvious, they track everything I buy. I don't mind this, I knew that would happen when I signed up. The signup form was pretty much inclusive: name, address, income, number of people in household, what kind of car I drive, the whole nine yards. It was blatently obvious what the scheme was for. Not only that, but the card they give you has a sticker on it that you peel off and put on the form itself. The numbers match. Thus the tracking becomes very, very simple.
Anyone who didn't see that when they signed up is a complete moron. I saw it, and I signed up anyway, because frankly I don't care if they know what I eat. I don't even care if they sell the information. I'm satisfied with the discount I receive.
What's the most that could happen from them selling the info? More junk mail? Good, more fuel for the fire. More phone calls? Sorry, I dropped my phone line because I found I didn't actually use it anymore, what with my cell phone (and I don't give that number out easily). Targeted ads? Good, maybe they'll advertise something I actually want to buy. I doubt it, but it's a possibility. The fact is that I can think of nothing they can do with that personal buying info that will affect me adversely. So I say, go for it.
---
- Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set him on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.
Thumb's up and down also aren't sent anywhere, I think that is covered on page 70 :-) so it only knows what you watched, not how much you claim to like it.
Thumbs *can* be sent, actually. The software provides for that. However, they are not actually sent, and this relates to my next reply:
There is talk of an opt-in service for that, but I think that is all TiVo users talking, not TiVo itself. Similarly web control of the TiVo would break the privacy policy, which is a big part of why they don't have it (and ReplayTV does).
The privacy policy actually allows for an opt-in to send your private viewing data. It's assumed this is for future services like a web interface or some such. Especially the bit about "this may limit the services we can offer to you". So if they ever do make a web service, you'd have to sign up for it and give them permission to get your personal data for the service.
---
- Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set him on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.
I can dream up half a dozen opt-in services, but that doesn't mean TiVo is working on any of them.
This is true, but I was trying to point out that the opt-in would not be included in the Privacy Policy for no reason. Either they are working on it, or are doing some good thinking ahead. Either way, they are thinking ahead to the extent of adding the ability to the software.
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- Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set him on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.
I found out exactly what the unit sent with a serial null modem cable and my existing laptop.
The thing does run Linux, you know. You can just open it up and have a look. Most of the system is done with TCL scripts. The dialup uses a normal pppd. Nothing funny going on about it.
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- Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set him on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.
Simple. You look at it before it encrypts it.
One of the reasons that was said was because in the Privacy foundation's notes on this, they mentioned that the data was not encrypted and could be snooped on or something to that effect. The Privacy Foundation also made note that Tivo said it was encrypted in 2.0.
Actually, it encrypts it in the dialup phase. If you have a Tivo with 2.0, watch the lights on the front while it's dialing. When they blink a lot, that's the Tivo accessing the crypto chip to encrypt the data. They use the Blowfish algorithim, I believe.
---
- Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set him on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.
To play devil's advocate for a second:
The issue of the "Privacy Foundation" is not that Tivo has been collecting data unbeknownst to its users. Moreover, they are concerned that the manual is misleading about what info it collects. They also feel that Tivo does not provide an easy way for users to opt-out of data collection.
I agree with you, on the whole, but you missed their point. However, they do have one legitimate concern, in my opinion:
When an online company closes, its database often becomes a potential asset for sale.
This problem is, of course, not unique to Tivo. The same argument could even apply to Slashdot. Hey, Taco! You'd better keep my long and illustrious history of first posts, hot grits and goatse.cx posts secret from my future employers!
It seems to me that one of the bigger benefits of Tivo is a truly easy way to skip over advertising in TV programs. Therefore, wouldn't the viewing habits of a large group of people who never see your advertising be rather worthless? I mean, of course, there are other means of advertising, but am I missing something here?
We (the TiVo using community) knew they were collecting anonymous information. What did you *think* they were going to use it for? TiVo has also gone out of their way to make sure you can opt out as well.
If it makes my television viewing better, then I'm all for *anonymous* tracking.
FP
"Tell me doctor, with all of your defenses, are there any provisions for an attack by killer bees?"
I look at it like this: The nielson rating system (the system that takes samples of families at random, and hooks up a box to track what a family watches so they can give shows the ratings that advertisers use to determine the value of commercials on certain shows) does almost exactly the same thing, except it doesn't allow you to pause live TV. I personally like the idea of the data being used to help determine the shows that people watch in given regions, and what people will watch later, as well. By allowing the data to be used, you help make TV better. This is optional, and if it makes TV better for me, I'm all for it.
That's not what you said before. Well, actually it is what you said before, but with different interpretation, perhaps.
-- It only takes 20 minutes for a liberal to become a conservative thanks to our new outpatient surgical procedure!
"How does this hurt me? Nobody got my name. Nobody got my phone number. I lost nothing. My privacy wasn't even invaded, because all they know is that some people like watching certain shows in certain proportions. "
*shudders* I seriously doubt you want the viewing habits of the majority making moves on the minority. I will seriously stop watching almost anything on fox if they decide to put one of these stupid little voyeuristic "reality" shows on again or "World's Scarriest Enemas" or whatever
"I really don't see the problem. I want them to know what shows I watch. That way they might make more of them."
Dumbing down television and it's associated programming is a war crime.
The death of one man is a tragedy; the death of a million is a statistic --Joseph Stalin
"Can somebody please tell me how anonymous tracking data can possibly be considered a privacy violation to anyone other than black-helicopter conspiracy nuts? "
getting to it
"Does it really hurt anybody if advertisers know that 35% of Simpsons viewers also watch ER (or whatever)?"
it psychologically profiles people to determine how to create majority oriented programming which decreases the value of television.
The death of one man is a tragedy; the death of a million is a statistic --Joseph Stalin
It's not secret, it tells you right there in the manual what they do.
Sig is taking a break!
They should just have an opt-in bonus where you get the listing service for free if you allow them to sell your viewing habits to advertisers, or collect it for ratings. Who gives a shit if they can target you better for ads, you have a Tivo, which means you can just skip all the commercials.
If you opt-out, you pay the $10/month fee or whatever it is.
Need Free Juniper/NetScreen Support? JuniperForum
Seriously... think about it. Tivo has the potential to be come as (or more) influential than Nielson ratings- ie, what their data says could determine what is programmed.
Which means that if all "geeks" (replace with demographic term of your choice) opt out, "geek" viewing choices will not be reflected in the data, and "geek" programming will become less financially attractive to networks (because they think nobody's watching it).
I would say this is old news, except that it isn't really news at all. Tivo has said from day one they were going to use anonymously collected data.
What could be news is what they are collecting. If you look at the logs, you will see they are collecting every button you press on the tivo remote. If you want to watch something without their knowledge, you are always free to change the channel without the tivo remote. I suppose doing this will slightly skew their numbers.
I see some people claiming they wouldn't mind tivo selling their data if they got a discount. Well, they are getting a discount. The 10$ a month (200$ lifetime) already take this into consideration.
Finally, anyone who is offended by this can very easily opt out. I think it would be well withen tivo's rights to increase the monthly charge or lifetime charge for people who do opt out.
Quack1701
But what good does it do them if the people can just skip over all the commercials they have lined up in 5 seconds?
--
Gonzo Granzeau
Gonzo Granzeau
"Nothing the god of biomechanics wouldn't let you into heaven for.." -Roy Batty
Not to mention that the setup menus include an opt-out option as well (though, I'm not clear on what happens to the data they've already collected if you use this method).
;-)
The thing is you don't want to opt out. There's no junk mail you get because of it (though the junk mail your neighborhood gets might change slightly); you never get calls because of it and best of all, no one can tell you watch smut-o-vision
The benefits on the other hand: better selection of "recommended shows" based on what you thumbs-up and down; accurate ratings data goes to the networks; and your cable company can tell what new stations are worth keeping (where before, they only had wide regional statistics to go on, TiVo can tell them how many of their subscribers watch the channel).
Yes it is in the User's Manual, but it took the privacy foundation 6 months to sniff the packets coming off the modem to figure out what they could've read in 5 minutes!
I'm sorry, but this calls for a rant!
You ever used VCR? They're great! For the a-freakin-mazing price of $80 you can go to your nearest Kroger (near the frozen foods) and get a HiFi VCR that does everything the TiVo can except play and record at the same time. Plus there's no monthly charge and no dealing with the AOL/Time Warner goons that make M$ look about as threatening as daytime PBS. They also last forever and can fix themselves! My 12-year-old Quasar was dropped from over 5 feet onto concrete, died, and then came back to life a week later. It didn't even blink at subsequent falls. Every VCR problem I've ever seen can be fixed with a head cleaner (a.k.a. the vacuum cleaner with the "crevice tool" attachment) or a sharp blow in just the right place. Let's see one of those fancy TiVo's take a 32-oz Quiktrip soft drink and be just fine after an hour or two under the hairdryer! Those hard drives run hot, so I'm sure they wouldn't like being the sole structural support for a 26-inch TV for three years. Also, VHS is as old as god, so it's never going to die. Try to take a TiVo movie to a friend's house or record something on a DVD and you're in for a helluva time. The first SLP tapes I ever made on my old Quasar are still just fine, grainy as the day they were recorded. When I need dust and lint (and everyone does from time to time), there is no higher quality source than those tapes! The LED on the remote died during the Great Fall of '94, and now a Radio Shack Giant LED is superglued in its place so I can program VCRs in any room in the house and drive goldfish mad with the push of a button. For the $400 price of a TiVo you could get 4 or 5 VCRs that could be used for disciplining your pets, warming your children, and of course playing those mysteriously unlabled VHS tapes that collect everywhere. You cannot deny the heritage of the VCR, and it will outlive and mock all who challenge it! I feed people like you to my Quasar for breakfast, and it thanks me with smoother starts and better handling! You'll never take me alive! AAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
Ahh, good rant. I think I hear the boys from the asylum coming already...
--
Win98 sux without these 1337 toolz !!
Keep in mind that above all else, Tivo, and any other for-profit company exists for one main reason: To Make Money. If you think that any company that has the ability to gather stats and data that can generate money isn't likely to sell that data at some point, then you're fooling yourself. Perhaps not every company *will* sell the data, but I can guarantee that the thought crosses all of their minds. I knew this when I bought the Tivo service 2 years ago, and it's a risk I accept.
I'd be more concerned if they were selling data that is *personal*, ie: what shows I specifically record, how/when I watch TV, how long I pause when surfing on the Nudie Channels, etc. But even that is a possibility. Bottom line, vote with your wallet, and let them know how/why you "voted". It's good to discuss these things on /., but if your tirade ends here, you've only wasted your time.
-This sig intentionally left blank
By modifying the software to keep you from fast forwarding through commercials (and probably taking a cut from the corps as well for supplying this "service").
This "upgrade" will probably also come with a "feature" to disallow you from dumping TV shows from the TV to your VCR (ahem; CRM - pesky fair use laws, damn Constitution)...
Worldcom - Generation Duh!
Reason is the Path to God - Anon
See my post at kuro5hin for more.
Best Slashdot Co
When I am linking to a post about about the tivo stuff? You smoking crack again?
Best Slashdot Co
... you just provided information, your opinion, for free.
The surprise isn't how often we make bad choices; the surprise is how seldom they defeat us.
---- El diablo esta en mis pantalones! Mire, mire!
peter barton: A Private Man's Privacy Campaign
The article brings up some interesting points but I believe privacy foundation has *failed* in meeting Peters goals which was to stop data mining abuse of minors, and instead he has a couple of hackers finding abuses where there are none.
Sorry guys but you get a c+ for effort. I could have written that report in a couple of hours
Uh, no. If you think that's all you're paying for, unplug your Tivo from the phone line and keep it that way for four weeks. No need to come back and tell me what happened, I already know.
</sarcasm> Seriously, though, where do you think the thing gets its TV listings from? Not only does it cost them money to keep track of that data, but I doubt UUNet lets TiVo have free use of their national dialups.
--
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"I personal[ly] think Unix is "superior" because on LSD it tastes like Blue." -- jbarnett
DAMMIT.. where are my mod points when I need them. Paging Taco.. gimme some moderator points :)
JOhn.
Campaign for Liberty
When I was choosing between getting a TiVo or a ReplayTV, I did it entirely on the basis of the privacy policy -- ReplayTV was quite explicit that it would not gather information about you. Why are Slashdot readers so interested in TiVo, when ReplayTV is available and less underhanded?
I'm not a TiVo owner, but a friend of mine is. I believe he said one of the selling points for him was that it allowed you to edit out your commercial content.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but if TiVo allows you to skip advertising, then selling your consumer data without your name makes it dificult for advertisers to reach you. Yes, they can still phone you but, you can always get your phone *77ed (anonymous caller reject - stops about 70% of it). I guess junk snail-mail would still be a bit of a problem.
You say you want a revolution?
So you need not worry about the dark black circle in the middle of your TiVo glowing red or the machine referring to you as "Dave". It's all just anonymous viewing data harvested by area, and has no ties with you whatsoever. For more info on this sort of thing, go do a search over at the AVS TiVo Forum.
Oh yeah, and STOP BEING SO PARANOID!!!
TiVo recorders, EasyPass electronic toll
collectors, Digital cable, free web mail,
supermarket discount cards, credit cards,
etc. all have something in common:
Trading privacy for convenience or money.
Very often, it's a bad trade for the
individual citizen. Very often, the citizen
is completely oblivious to this.
What I don't understand is this: I was
taught in school that America, the land of
the free, is defined by a populace that
wanted freedom and privacy. Yet, with the
general willingness of the people to toss
their privacy without a thought and subject
themselves to the tyranny of utterly random
drug and sex laws, it would appear that our
country has quite a distorted self image.
Not because TiVo is collecting data, but people (even our very own /. audience ironically enough) ACTUALLY FEEL SECURE when they bring a device into their living room. A great quote from Enenemy of the State: "The more technology you use, the easier it is for the government to keep tabs on you". I'm afraid of any device that has the capability of phoning home. My DSS dish is not plugged into a phone because I never want them calling my box and downloading my data. I don't register software, and I have doubleclick.net in my /etc/hosts as 127.0.0.1. Why? To keep those prying eyes out of my business. The fact that anyone is surprised byt this is beyond me.
"You'll die up there son, just like I did!" - Abe Simpson
There is no reasonable defense against an idiot with an agenda
:wq
This sounds like a bunch of chicken little nonsense by an organization looking to leverage TiVo's popularity for some publicity.
I own a TiVo and the documentation and onscreen setup information made clear from the start that aggregate info will be released to outside parties unless you opt-out. In the article, The Privacy Foundation takes issue with the statement that "no one outside your home, not even the TiVo staff or any of TiVo's computer systems, will ever have access to any of your personal viewing information without your prior consent. Your preferences are personal." This is completely true. I am a twenty eight year old male and my viewing habits are only being used to make generalizations about people in my demographic.
I have real concerns about the way corporations are treating privacy, especially when they exchange information without consent, but TiVo has behaved admirably with respect to this issue, and I have been very satisfied with their service.
Companies have a business to run; collecting our information is part of that business. How do you expect a company to be competitive if they cannot know exactly who is using their products and when those products are being used?
People are going to be outraged by this "invasion of privacy". I just see it as smart business, plain and simple.
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That's just the way it is
Unfortunately all of the VCRs at the asylum are Beta, so you'll have to start a new video collection. Begin discussion on why Beta always was, and still is better than VHS anyway.... NOW. I think I have a plan for you. You can dump your shows from TiVo to... get this... VHS!! So, other than the fact that your particular VCR sounds like it might intimidate a meek and mild mannered TiVo, you could have a match made in heaven. Personally, I'm happy to say that I haven't had to rewind a VCR tape in about a year and half. I agree that you may need to be slowly weaned off your VCR though. :)
What if the Hokey-Pokey really is what it's all about?
Have you ever used a TiVo?
A VCR isn't even close, much less 'far better'.
Have you ever set up your VCR to record a show, started watching that show 20 minutes into it and fast forwarded through the commercials, finishing the show at the top of the hour? Watching the first part of a recorded show while the last part is still recording is just one way that makes TiVo better than a VCR (among many others).
One of the problems with TiVo is that it does so much, that it's hard to describe. Initially, it just comes across as a fancy VCR. You have to really look at all of the features to get a good idea of how it changes TV.
I can't count the number of people who have thanked me for turning them on to TiVo. They always seem amazed that it took them that long to try it out in the first place. Don't dismiss it as an inferior VCR. Try it. If you don't like it, take it back.
BTW, When's the last time you used a calculator or a spreadsheet? Wouldn't doing those calculations by hand make you "think" and thus be far better?
What if the Hokey-Pokey really is what it's all about?
The Privacy Foundation's statement.
TiVo's response.
The goat.
For what it's worth, they're the same folks that brought the Javascript e-mail bug issue to light, so whoever was proffering the idea that they might be in bed with Microsoft, seeing as how the timing of this (hot air blowing) coincides with Ultimate TV's release, well... I wouldn't be so sure of that.
Easy does it!
This comment has been submitted already, 276865 hours , 59 minutes ago. No need to try again.
Pardon my ignorance, but what exactly is TiVo? I went to their site and read up on it, but it seemed to be marketing speak rather than just telling me what the hell it does. It looks like it records shows digitally. If that's the case, how would it send information back to the company? My VCR doesn't do that.
Prevent email address forgery. Publish SPF records for y
It has a 40 gig drive, meaning about 42 hours of video, and I can back up the shows I watch to CDR with little difficulty. Unlike Tivo, it can't tattle on me with no modem or network connection, though I'm sure digital cable takes care of that already. And any DVD issues I encounter with region codes and Macrovision are easily dealt with, not that it's been necessary so far.
I'd like to think a pre-built box like this could be sold for 500 bucks or so, but the entertainment cartels would never let it happen. So if you have Tivo privacy concerns, build your own, already.
Umm, go right ahead, but take step one out of your plan. TiVo will never allow you to legeally download their source. The *service* is their business. That is how they make their money. The boxes cost them money (hence why they didn't care when people upgraded; but if someone figured out how to steal their code or steal the service, watch out). Only way to get what you are talking about is by writing your own code to do what the TiVo does.
This is really good. Or maybe it's worst thing that could possibly happen.
So, be creative...culture jam. I've got a card for my local grocery store that's registered to "Bozo T. Clown". Yeah, they're collecting demographics for that user, but there's no way that any of it's useful....
I should point out that there is no movie of Catcher in the Rye, and probably won't be one until J.D. Salinger kicks it. (And that's only if his estate doesn't honor his wishes.) The dude seems to really hate the movie industry, as evidenced by certain excerpts from the book itself.
"If I removed everything here that I thought was pointless, there would be like two messages here."
woxy.com - Bam! The Future of Rock and Roll
So what good does it really do whomever to have all that anonymous data? They'll learn things like Wal-Mart did that men buy beer and diapers on Sunday afternoon or that men surf for cars and porn. Wow.
But there's a difference between 10 people buying one sixpack of beer and 1 person buying ten sixpacks. They are missing out on vital information, they are getting the right totals, but not they are not able to target specifically what they want to target.
Stupid sexy Flanders.
Given these statements this article sure tries to stir people up over something that I found clearly explained in my manual as well. Whats the deal with that being a front page slashdot story? They aren't selling my address for mailing lists which a lot of companies do without even telling you or letting you opt out of it (cough microsoft). So I don't see what the big deal it is.
I would expect to find this story on msnbc not cnn after all the ultimate TV is comming out. Of course gates is pretty ruthless so it is entirely possible he wrote the article and submitted it to cnn.com. There is your conspiracy theory, It's all gates' fault.
So if I can hack into their database can I find out who keeps watching those god forsaken Fox police shows and have them killed?
And if I did that could I then tape it to sell back to Fox?
Just wait till some crappy band steals your nic.
Hey, I think it's great...I mean why have a customized tv recorder it if the customization data isn't going to be used to server you.... I mean anything that gets rid of crappy sitcoms and advertising that doesn't apply to me is a good thing.... I know, I know big brother....blah, blah, blah.... Call me lazy, but I know going into this that the data could/would be sold, so at least it will get me a little more of what I want... Maybe then Comedy Central will realize their programming sucks and they'll bring back UCB ; P
So i JUST got an e-mail from my professor, and he wrote up his experiences with the TiVo check it out right here check it out.
- "Never let a computer tell me shit." - DelTron Zero
My professor works for a privacy center at my school and one of the things he has looked into was a tivo. In my security class he explained to us how he went about figuring out what kind of information the tivo uploaded to it's servers. The thing calls home in the early morning and usualy transfers about 5 megs of data. He ended up setting up around $500 worth of equipment to get this stuff to work. The tivo was setup so that it's outgoing phone system was hooked up to his laptop, in one modem, and in another modem his laptop was hooked up to the phone jack. With a couple more peices of equipment and some simple programming he did a man-in-the-middle attack with the connection. When the tivo dialed it's home server the laptop listened to the number and then built a PPP connection to the server using the other modem. As the traffic flowed through each of the connections it was logged in a file. Afterwards, with a few unix tools, we converted the PPP data into tcp output, then the TCP output into raw data with time logs. As it turns out the tivo really does send *anonymous* data. In their privacy statement they say that they seperate your "personally identifiable data" from the "anonymous" data. The logs just showed when you changed the channel and when you started and stopped recording. The system also checked for updates for it's system, and downloaded a channel listing. However, it did tell the server it's serial number, and the ISP it used to login to the server was a local one. So if they REALLY needed to i bet they could track you down and match your records to your viewing habits. But really people, they are telling the truth they don't track you.
- "Never let a computer tell me shit." - DelTron Zero
OK, now why does this bother me? Because I'm not getting compensated for this! Heck, if these advertising companies wanted my viewing habits (down to my favorite show, PBR), they should compensate me for this.
Actually, you are being compensated in not one, but two ways.
1. $9.95/mo is really cheap for this type of service.. without the data being collected, I could imagine it costing a LOT more.
2. Better advertising and show selections. Some day you will not have to sit through tampon commercials during Battle Bots!
They will notice that for every hour of Sopranos and NHL hockey that I watch there is 5 hours of Dawson's Creek, Sex and the City, and ER.
:)
Yup, this anonymous tivo user is remote-whipped.
1122 Imaginary Road
(Cornucopia Ltd order)
Any Town
Statename, 12345
Rich
There's a HOWTO on this.
Yeah, PBS puts theirs at the beginning and end.
This is TiVo's privacy policy, including opt out procedures.
I thought the user's manual clearly states that this information is collected anonymously and then gives opt out procedures.
Besides, I don't have anything against being able to tell the networks which shows suck and which ones are good.
is NOT their database. i could care less if they make money by selling their server logs (properly anonymized, of course!). what DOES bother me is that they join a looooooooong list of companies that do this without telling their users up-front. i mean, come on. they think we won't find out? i don't care what someone does with my anonymous usage as long as they tell me first. but doing it 'secretly' is just stupid, stupid, stupid.
The REAL sam_at_caveman_dot_org is user ID 13833.
In order for this to be effective, wouldn't they have to attach a random ID to your TiVo??? Doesn't this make this as bad as the PIII serial number, if not worse? If I'm completely wrong, could you please enlighten me on exactly how this "anonymous" info usage is collected?
Well, here's a newsflash: it's not surprising because TIVO has said for the past two years that they've been doing this.
It's no mystery, never has been a mystery, and is only a mystery to those odd privacy foundation folks who -- after two years of TIVO -- suddenly cracked open their TIVO manual and read that, yes indeed, TIVO collects and aggregates usage statistics.
I love it when "foundations" underwrite studies in order to garner publicity. Their so-called "studies" -- or press releases, whatever you want to call them -- always ride the crest of this week's current "hysterical trend."
The question we should be asking -- and no, I haven't checked their web page yet -- is who, exactly, is this foundation? What corporation has them in their pocket? (They wouldn't be involved with Microsoft, would they? I mean, MS would love to indirectly spread TIVO FUD -- indirectly, you'll notice I say -- because their oft-delayed Ultimate TV will very shortly make its way into pipelines.)
Maybe they aren't affiliated with MS at all, but it wouldn't surprise me one bit. Likewise, it wouldn't surprise me if this place gets funding from the core foundations of the American "right" -- the NRA, the various Christian fundamentalist groups, or whatever non-profit "moral authority" is the flavor of the day.
("Hey, video games are what causes the school shootings! And, TIVO, by god, it's on a video screen -- and it sorta plays like a game -- so you bet, we don't like TIVO either. It's just proof that the private button presses of our gun-carrying members are used to further the left's 'liberal' agenda!" "MegaDittos, Rush! MegaDitto's to you from Spokane!" "MegaDittos from Newport News! MetaDittos from New Mexico!" "All hail Mom, Apple Pie, shotguns, and Rush Limbaugh! Because, as you know, this country was founded on freedom: the freedom to carry guns, blow shit up, and read the bible!")
Audience Measurement
The measurement service provides television audience data on a minute by minute basis for channels received within the UK. These data are available for reporting nationally as well as at the ITV and BBC regional level.
Viewing estimates are obtained from panels of television owning households representing the viewing behaviour of the 23+ million households within the UK. The panels are selected to be representative of each ITV and BBC region, and collectively provide a network sample of 4,485 households.
Panel homes are selected via a multi-stage stratified and unclustered sample design. This ensures that the panel is fully representative of households across the whole of the UK. Each panel is maintained against a range of individual and household characteristics (panel controls). As the estimates for the large majority of the panel controls are not available from Census data it is necessary to conduct surveys (Establishment Survey) to obtain this information.
The Establishment Survey is a random probability survey carried out on a continuous basis and involving some 40,000 interviews per year. The nature of this survey ensures that any changes within the characteristics of the population can be identified. Panel controls can therefore be up-dated and panel household representation adjusted to ensure representativeness is maintained. In addition to being the prime source of television population information, the Establishment Survey also generates a pool of potential recruits from which panel member homes are recruited.
Each of the 4,485 panel member households have all their television receiving equipment (sets, video cassette recorders, set-top box decoders etc.) electronically monitored by a 'peoplemeter' monitoring system. This system automatically identifies and records the channel to which each television set is tuned when switched on and all viewing involving a VCR (recording, playback, viewing through the VCR etc.). In addition the metering system incorporates the capability to 'fingerprint' videotapes during recording sessions and to subsequently identify such recorded material when played back (time-shifted viewing).
All permanent household residents and guests declare their presence in a room whilst a television set is on by pressing an allocated button on a handset. The metering system monitors all registrations made by each individual.
Throughout each day the meter system stores all the viewing undertaken by the entire household. Each night the panel household is contacted by the processing centre by telephone to collect the stored data. This procedure is carried out on every home each day to produce 'overnight' television viewing data.
what annoys me about tivo is not that they are agregating and selling viewer information, but that they make you pay for the priviledge - $10 per month or $120 per year. if our viewing habits are so important to them, they should give you the program information for free or pay you for the right to sell our viewing habits.
the other major change i want to see is a tivo with an ethernet port instead of a modem. i have a broadband line and would rather the gadget download the tv listings over that than make a phone call. i want to get rid of the plain old phone line and rely solely on my broadband line and cell phone instead.
when religion is no longer the opiate of the masses, governments will resort to real opiates.
anyone know if this is pure speculation or if its true?
I love my tivo, but I will NOT give up disk space for ads. no way. if I find this is true, I'll probably cancel my subscription and go do an opensource linux version on a regular pc.
I assumed the stolen disk space was used for buffering YOUR chosen data. anyone really know for sure?
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"It is now safe to switch off your computer."
They know what buttons you press, they now which shows you watch. They can even statistically correlate when you're in the house and when you aren't. The broader the spectrum of TV channels you can receive, the more sense it makes to correlate this information to your identity.
You just have to trust TiVo, a corporation like any other, that they won't send this data to spammers & junk mailers including your identity -- a risk which is especially big if they go bankrupt, which will probably the case one day.
You have to trust them that they don't tell your boss that you watch softporn or an unreasonable amount of children's TV ("pedophile!"). You have to trust them that they don't tell your insurance company that you watch a lot of health information, especially about heart risks. You have to trust them that they don't tell the gov't that you watch only political documentaries and are especially interested in JFK.
Go on, trust TiVo. They're you friends. (Or at least they've got a good PR department that makes you think so.) Everyone else is just a conspiracy theorist and a fanatic.
While you're at it, enable the viewer reporting information in Real Player. Install Comet Cursor. Get webHancer. Get Aureate. Get Cydoor. All these advertisers just want to improve your web experience. And if you ask, they'll certainly tell you that they store all identifying information separately from everything else and would never correlate them together. What are you waiting for? This data is completely WORTHLESS, after all, right?
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> TiVo has actually gone to lengths to make sure they CAN'T associate the data
First, it was supposed to be funny.
Second, they can match the data, with the correlation of the IP addresses between the two uploads.
Third, the comm is now crypted, so they could easily pass private info without anyone knowledge.
Fourth, as most of the recent privacy issues have proved us, they can easily change their privacy policy (for instance, but releasing individual but anonymous data, so the advertisers would not know who you are, but whould know what you watch)
Cheers,
--fred
1 reply beneath your current threshold.
It probably means that they need to do a SQL join to associate viewing habits to a particular customer.
Cheers,
--fred
1 reply beneath your current threshold.
From the TiVo privacy policy:
Now, I don't even have a TiVo, but if I did, I certainly wouldn't appreciate getting any extra phone calls about it. I must admit, however, that TiVo's policy is suprisingly understanding of consumer concerns and seems rather responsible. God help us all if the AOL/Time-Warner/Satan partnership buys them up, though.
Mike Greenberg
http://www.yourmothernaked.com
First of all, this is pure speculation, TiVo had said publicly that they will NOT be doing this - the space is for Video On Demand PPV stuff. Imagine your TiVo knows you love Natalie Portman movies, well the next time one is available on PPV, TiVo will store it for you (locked up) and allow you to watch it on demand for a fee. It's basically time-shifted PPV movies.
Second, there is no 'stolen' disk space... All TiVos have space reserved on them from the factory, the higher the capacity of the machine, the more space there is. The only change is that with the 2.0 upgrade, people who hacked their TiVos had their reserve space adjusted to reflect the higher capacity of the box. Considering that TiVo has been very tolerant (even helpful at times) of people hacking their boxes, and this only happens to hacked boxes, and TiVo has been warning people about this for ages, I would find it very hard to use a strong term like 'stolen'.
Think outside the... Hey, where'd the friggin' box go?
TiVo is legally correct when they say that they are not selling any private data. They are not. The files that get uploaded from your TiVo every night do not contain any identifying information (I'm talking about the files that monitor the remote keypresses, etc.).
But there is a catch here. TiVo uses UUNET dialup access to upload their files. If I were an advertising company, I would head straight to UUNET and get their caller-ID logs. Remember, UUNET has not given any privacy assurances, and neither has TiVo said anything about third parties (in this case, the advertisers and UUNET) being bound by their "privacy guarantee".
OK, now why does this bother me? Because I'm not getting compensated for this! Heck, if these advertising companies wanted my viewing habits (down to my favorite show, PBR), they should compensate me for this. Otherwise, I'm not willing to part with this information!
I thought the news on TiVo's policy on user data was old news. It's a big problem -- how do we stop companies like this from "connecting" so-called anonymous user data with identifieable information? What about a law? Well, that would restrict legitimate uses of colletcing data (i.e. consensual). What about internal company policy, such as the one TiVo says it uses (i.e. privacy policy). But this is not enforceable, and its hard to audit whether or not a company is abiding by its policy. This seems like an "unsolvable" of the information age. Is it solvable?
If TiVO are actually aggregating their usage data, and selling this to marketeers so they can (for instance) profile which times to show a particular advert, then what is the problem?
This may be great: you may see an advertisement for the product of your dreams when you are actually watching your TV.
Get with it: all companies have a duty to their shareholders to make money. If they are not actually selling your personal details then they are merely trying to run their business.
Even when you are using "good ol' rabbit ears" it is still possible to capture "your" viewing demographics.
:-)
In the UK (and I'm sure everywhere else) a large number of people (20,000?) have a box in their lounge which captures their veiwing habits. This data is then scaled up so they can tell us Coronation St beat East Enders (!) by 1,200,00 viewers for Monday's nail-biting showdown between Deirdre's glasses and Ashley's Sausages (ask someone from the uk
Again, this info is used mainly by the advertisers to target peak viewing times and/or specific viewing groups. I have no problem with this.
This comes as no real surprise. The fact that the TIVO can learn what you like to watch should be a warning. Tivo, although a very cool device, is the perfect big brother tool for advertisers. Think about it, they have the data as to when, what and how often you watch different programs. Your usage data can be applied to others in your demographic. Not everyone owns a TIVO, but it's a perfect way for advertisers to get their survey data. Regardless of whether or not YOU, "Jack/Jill" TIVO user, actually watches the commercials. This is a dream device for Advertising firms. It makes it so much easier for them to reach their target audience/demographic. They would sell their souls for this type of data. Not that advertisers/commercials are bad or evil. I'd much rather see commercials that are tailored to my interests, than say commercials about dish soap.
In the case of TiVO, the product can not harm the consumer, even a little, and they did provide explicit and obvious notification anyway. Not in the bottom of a locked filing cabenet in a basement office with a sign that says "beware of the leopard"... right up front, in the manual, in a screen you see during installation, and on their web page. They do everything short of calling you at home during dinner to say "by the way, we use aggregate data to provide information for advertisers about general veiwing habits."
That's why this whole "issue" is just silly.
Information wants to be anthropomorphized.
Correct.
and if meat packing plants decide to process meat that has been sitting on the floor with poisoned bread to catch rats, the dead rats themselves, and their fecal matter it shouldn't matter right?
That might be analogous to the situation if the meat was clearly labeled "this meat contains rat poison, dead rats, and rat shit. For God's sake, don't eat it, but if you want to buy it for composting, it's great".
TiVO made no secret of the fact tha they are sharing aggregate data, so no crime was committed. Cool your jets, Mr. Nader.
Information wants to be anthropomorphized.
I won't comment on whether opting out is good or bad- TiVo provides for the possibility, so it's fair for me to take advantage of it.
/. in December.
I opted out when I signed up for my lifetime subscription in september.
I opted out again when I read the first article on this at
I just finished calling up again, and being told that my record was set to gather the anonymous info. I re-opted out AGAIN.
I believe I signed up for a lifetime of having to call and opt out. If they're going to provide the possibility to opt-out, then at least the option ought to stay set!
A host is a host from coast to coast, but no one uses a host that's close
Its called the Neilson ratings. They contact people and put a box in their homes to monitor their viewing habits and cross-reference that information with the viewer's demographic info. It is then published and used to determine which shows are retained, which are cut, and yes, it is valuable information for advertisers to know that their target market watches show ABC a hell of a lot more than XYZ. Nobody knows who you are, I have heard that Neilson actually asks people not to advertise their status, but I cannot verify this.
TiVo, and you will probably find that ReplayTV does the same thing (I didnt read the entire article so it may be mentioned), is just an expansion of this, except you dont have to be contacted by Neilson.
I have always wanted to be a Neilson person -- and this may prompt me to get TiVo sooner than later -- I dont know how many times Ive loved a show, only to see it cancelled. I like to think that if I had been in the Neilson sampling audience, it may have made a difference...
The ivory tower has never had to reach so h
I've been really tempted to invest in a Tivo, particularly after hearing all the raves about how easy it makes finding and watching what you're actually interested in. The one thing that's been stopping me isn't the privacy policy per se - it appears as though Tivo is upfront about what it's selling to other people and I really like the opt-out number.
What worries me is the potential FUTURE use of my subscriber/viewing data. What guarantees do I have that Tivo won't sell my personalized information in the future, a la Toysmart? I'm not a Tivo subscriber, so please correct me if I'm wrong, but is there any guarantee that Tivo won't sell my personal individualized data if it runs into a rough financial spot or if it gets purchased by another company? Does Tivo save its viewers individualized data?
If I could only make sure that my individualized data will NEVER be used without my permission I would sign up for Tivo in a heartbeat. I don't want to commit to them and then get the same treatment I did from Amazon.
But these aren't bad data! You are simply aggregating the information for the service provider. Tivo can use 10 people's usage patterns just as well as they can use one - now it looks like the customer is a really frequent viewer, but Tivo still knows that (for example) people skip all the ads on ER but they don't on the football game.
You will reduce the utility of the data to track you individually... but since Tivo isn't doing that, they won't care. Sorry!
sulli
RTFJ.
Just who are you being an advocate for? Do you own a Tivo and feel screwed? Or are you just mindlessly raging at the machine? I don't see any outcry amongst Tivo owners and I certainly don't want the likes of you speaking for them.
They stab it with their steely knives,
But they just can't kill the beast.
I think you're right.
They stab it with their steely knives,
But they just can't kill the beast.
Once again, I'm nearly moved to retch as a self-proclaimed "advocate" tries to speak for a group that he doesn't know or care about.
They stab it with their steely knives,
But they just can't kill the beast.
I don't know how related this is to the mosaic project, but it sound a lot like ACORN (A Classification Of Residential Neighbourhoods). Type your UK postcode in here, and be scared by how much they know you. As a UK postcode covers around 10 addresses, its pretty specific.
Sure it's useful . . . they still know what one particular purchaser (you) is buying, in what quantities and when. When the marketing analyst runs his "product category sales by date and ZIP code" report, your purchases are on it, accurately helping out the marketing effort.
So your "culture jam" (?!) is not only paranoid and stupid, it doesn't even help "bring down the man", or whatever it is you think you're trying to accomplish. Not to mention the environmental impact of the wasted junk mail being sent to Bozo.
Lots of posts have pointed out that this doesn't seem to be a big deal -- that they're selling information that's had personal identifiers stripped off so that third parties can only test aggregated marketing models. Thus they can't track me down with junk mail, phone calls, etc. As long as they stick to this policy, fine.
But protecting myself from unwanted intrusions is only one aspect of privacy. What about other reasons why I might want to withhold consent to use my personal information? For example, what if a company that does something I consider unsavory (damaging the environment, supporting political candidates I don't like, etc.) wants to buy my anonymized information from TiVo to use in their aggregated analysis in order to help them make a better profit? Shouldn't I have the right to withhold my information?
While this is on a tiny scale, I don't see how it differs much from a boycott. I can choose not to buy products from Company X, so why can't I avoid helping them in some other way to make a profit?
I hate to break this to everyone, but cable companies have been doing this same thing for a long time now. You really think those "digital" cable boxes are receive only?
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All opinions presented here aren't mine.
I don't think anyone needed statistical data to make that choice. I'm pretty sure even the brain-dead marketing people could figure out that breakfast cereal ads would work better with Saturday morning cartoons.
This UPC-code I allowed to be tatooed on the back of my neck was also a great idea. Whenever I rent a movie at Blockbuster and forget my card- bam! They just scan the back of my neck and I'm good to go.
The high-band radio transmitter I had installed in my daughter's sinus cavity has earned my family over four hundred dollars in Warner Bros. store merchandise. Plus there is the added benefit that I always know where she is. Of course, I would have to go through the database managers to do that, but it's a comfort to know that I could. And the best part: the surgery was free.
To all you nay-sayers and naybobs I can only say this: imagine a future sans the great inconveniences of our day like Neilsen boxes, annoying survey calls, voting.
Think about it.
Let's see, AOL owns CNN now. AOL TV is based on TIVO. And everyone knows how AOL values it's customers' privacy. Why would they have a negative story on a company they do business with?
This so-called "foundation" does have a decent point. A company's privacy policy is only as good as the company itself. When a business goes belly-up and the bankruptcy court sells its assets (collected data included), who enforces the original privacy policy? Nobody. I think this would be a good place for some legislation
It is more important what data is collected than what data is given out. So long as it isn't collected, it can't be sold.
So, I applaud Tivo for not personally identifying the data at the point of collection. If they go belly-up, they can't be forced to sell data they don't have.
Nielson ratings require an extra piece of equipment hooked into your TV. But Digital Cable has a transmitter built right in to the cable box. That is how it requests listings for certain times. The cable company could be using that for info collecting purposes.
In the end, it's good for TiVo owners for TiVo to give out this info. It's much better for TiVo to sell this info. Wy? Think of how you're TiVo works.
:) (The specific feature is the one that won't record reruns for 28 days. For this to work, program descriptions are needed.)
When TiVo sells the viewing anonymous viewing info, it shows the advertisers what it is you're watching. As more and more TiVo's are sold, networks will show more programming geared to the TiVo crowd. (say filling their late night timeslots with decent programming instead of infomercials and TiVo enabling advertising.)
Plus it help fund things like the TiVo magazine and buy the airtime (On latenight Discovery) for their weekly program that you TiVo will record by default (Anyone else think they need a better host for that show?)
If the networks see value in TiVo, they will become more TiVo friendly. Maybe SiFi will actually update their schedules when the run B5 movies instead of their normal schedule. Comedy Central finally made BattleBots TiVo friendly by adding [very short] descriptions to every showing of BattleBots (just what bots are fighting in what round, it's not much, but it's enough to allow the new features in v2.0 of the TiVo software to function. [v2.0 should be out soon for those of you who aren't on the beta program]
In the end, I think that TiVo selling viewing information can only benifit me in the long run, so I have nothing agnist it as long as it is anonymous. (Anonymous to the point where marketers can't target advertising to my tivo unit, that would suck.)
If you have digital cable, the capiblaty is there to target advertising based on your location. I've even seen it happen (Timewarner kinda goofed and the commercials overlapped. One was for a national product, the overlay was a local business.) Go worry about your cable company instead, they're not as open as TiVo is about these issues.
I'm going to go back in my box and will think within the limits of my box: MS Sucks Linux Good I read too much Slashdot.
You think that your cable & satellite companies don't do the same thing? I'd be willing to wager that they do. Some paranoia is justified, but put it in perspective. The same thing has been happening to years, and most geeks I know still use cable/satellite TV. Me, I opt for good ol' rabbit ears (but not because of privacy concerns).
so we could all download the Tivo source,
./configure
make
make install
and point the software to TVlistings.org
now TVListings.org could try the subscription based service or various Marketing agencies could offer kickbacks or promotions if you allow them to track your personal data.
if they're making money selling my data, I don't want to have to pay for my subscription and IMHO, I shouldn't have to.
I want more than targeted commercials for my personal data, I WANT KICKBACKS, and I WANT TO KNOW WHO GETS WHAT, and I WANT TO CONTROL WHO GETS WHAT. ya know what else, sooner or later I WILL GET WHAT I WANT, even if TIVO looses my subscription because sombody did a TVListings.org
TIVO are you listening?
"The Most Fun Possible on 4 wheels" is at SunBuggy in Las Vegas
I was lucky enough to attend Linuxworldexpo in New York City this February. It was great.
About three weeks ago, I saw something online about attendance figures - the show was huge, but even knowing that I was surprised and delighted to see that the total came to approximately 10,000, making it not only the biggest Linux show I ever attended, but the biggest computer event.
The news gets back to Ballmer and he involuntarily drops a big wet turd in his underwear.
This includes ME! I was there, and it counted. I'm not sorry - why should I be?
My own opinion is that aggregated data like that is no invasion of privacy, and TiVo's hands are clean, based on facts presented so far.
Compare this to the activities of banks. They routinely market detailed data of specific purchases including name, address, tel # and personal wealth details and I have a paper mailbox full of the most pathetic collection of trash you ever saw as a result. It would also be nice if I could take a shower without the telephone ringing. Wouldn't ya think paying interest on credit cards out the wazoo would have those guys restrain themselves a little?
I have no sympathy for marketteers and their ever-increasing desperation, but TiVo isn't the problem here.
give me a
TiVo does not collect personal information, unless you opt in. What does that mean? That means that unless you specifically ask them, they wont know that Steve likes The Sopranos. Only that 85% of their customers like The Sopranos. I dont have a problem with this, and I dont think that most people WOULD, if they fully understood the issue. Instead, people who just want attention make libelous claims out of ignorance or malitiousness (sp?). oViT
hard core geek-ware
They've been on 60 minutes and been very honest and up-front about it. Try reading next time, and don't bitch on slashdot for your failure to do so.
-
Seems to me, this would be a great way to collect viewing information. Better than having to fill out the Nielson(sp?) diary thing. I'd be more than happy as long as it's anonymous and I get something out of it (like a better viewing experience, money, discount, etc.)...and as long as there is a way to say 'no thanks', I can't see that there's anything wrong w/ this. Better than companies that send info to their site when you install a program (especially when they don't ask/tell you)...blah
my $0.02
terradot, growing awareness
>As far as I can tell, TiVO could work without transmitting any information to HQ. Just download the listings and do all processing on the machine.
Yup. Call TiVo customer support and tell them you want to opt out and be completely anonymous. No information will be collected.
--jet (@ all sorts of places)
I know it's a taste issue, but 99% of TV sucks! I'd be happier if this data they aggregated ended up delivering better programming to me. But it still doesn't. In a sense, if they didn't anonymize the usage habits, I'd hope that it would result in better personalized content to me.
-- "Sucks to your ass-mar"
You know, it occurs to me that companies aren't just willing to sell things to you anymore and let you go on your merry way. Now you not only pay with your hard-earned money but also with your demographics. When was the last Web site you saw where you could just go in, add one or more products to your shopping cart and simply check out without having to register and tell the company everything about yourself, including what you had for breakfast that morning? And this tactic isn't just happening online anymore. This morning's Atlanta Journal-Constitution has a story about how Kroger is now limiting most of its sale items to those who sign up for its discount card. And yes, they can and do keep track of what you buy. And like everyone else, they say that they'll never divulge that data. I wonder how many companies would be willing to write that promise into a legally-binding contract. Not many, I bet. You'd think that retailers would be happy to just sell us things, but no, they want to also sell us to marketers. And I don't buy the BS that this allows them to lower the prices they charge us. They're doing it to make more money, not so they can give us the benefit of lower prices. If a marketer wants my data, then they can pay me in cold hard cash. After all, it's my data, damn it. You want my demographics? Fine, show me the money! If I like your offer, then maybe we'll talk.
That light you see at the end of the tunnel might be from an oncoming train.
The problem with the current ratings system, which uses a very small number of viewers to extrapolate the habits of the entire TV-watching public, is that it often rounds off niche audiences. There may be many thousands of people watching a particular show, but the Nielsen system can often round those people off into obscurity (especially as it does not include any demographic information on those viewers.) If you're really interested in quality TV, you should be glad that your preferences are being heard, rather than extrapolated from a bunch of couch potatoes watching "Full House".
On a slightly different topic, have you noticed that Tivo has begun calling their boxes "Standalone Units"? Does this imply that Tivo is going to move into cable head-ends in the future? If so, we may all be enjoying the last days of fast-forwarded ads.
Compensation is not necesarily money. What about a little discount in the service?
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
He complained that his TiVO unit was automatically choosing shows for him based on what he'd watched before. It had him watching Animal Planet and *shudder* ER.
-- Nerds on toast in the new millenium
What's the point of collecting user data? TiVO just lets you record stuff right? So where do they put ads? As a non-TiVOer, help me out. Do they shrink the screen or something to put more ads on?
-- Nerds on toast in the new millenium
But seriously, this is nothing out of the ordinary. Television service providers, mainly networks and cable companies, have been selling viewing habits to advertisers since the television was invented. That's why you see commercials for sugary breakfast cereal during Saturday morning cartoons instead of commercials for 1-800 porn numbers.
Anonymous statistical data is in no way an invasion of anyone's privacy, it just helps to ensure that we see ads that are targetted to our interests.
Slashdot: Open Source, Closed Minds.
HTH HAND
--
$ chown -R us:us yourbase
until one member of management changes. That's all it takes now-adays.
This is the case for so many "personalization" services, yet the companies are hell-bent on getting data on you. I'd be much more likely to use this stuff if this were an option, instead of relying on "privacy pledges" (HAHAHAAA HEHEEE... hooowee (wiping tears from eyes)... now, that's rich, folks...)
I realize the cost would be greater, and in some cases I'd pay the additional cost for the privacy. Why don't these companies simply make that an option, and put whatever price on it they feel corresponds to the value they lose by not having your information?
pr0n - keeping monitor glass spotless since 1981.
But then, the company is sold to someone I distrust, so I discontinue service. Can I continue to use the unti for stuff, or is it brain-dead without a connectino to HQ?
pr0n - keeping monitor glass spotless since 1981.
I think this is a good thing. This is essentially letting you vote with your clicker as to what shows should stay or go. Now when you change the channel in disguest from the latest NY Cop blood and guts show--your vote will be counted.
nohup rm -rf ~/. >& zen &
Ok... who gives two shit whether or not TIVO knows what you watch, records it, then sell it? Unless you are secretly recording child porn beamed to your tv from a Rogue Satelite then dont get your panties in a bunge. The only way i see this as being a problem is if people are refering to the.. "If one gets away with it, then others will get away with it and we need to address privacy before we lose control" Thats my view, what do you think?. - Wiggum
Ummm.. GM *does* make shoddy cars, and I *don't* buy them. What planet do you live on?
Suzuki undoubtedly mentioned somewhere in its 200-page Samurai manual that sudden, high-speed turns are dangerous. Does that relieve them of the responsibility for making a safe product? If the butcher has a sign in his back room, warning that his meat is contaminated, and a sign out front inviting customers to read the signs in his backroom, is it OK for ignorant consumers to eat the tainted meat?
Tivo's sins are pretty benign in comparison, but the principle still holds. In my opinion, if a product can harm the consumer, even a little, the vendor has an obligation to provide explicit and obvious notification of the possibility. We don't have informed consumers when the negative information is buried in the fine print somewhere.
See the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Universe for an example in the same vein.
1. I skip commercials. They need to find another way to get to me.
2. I pay my bills with PayMyBills.com so if they send me junk mail, it gets thrown out.
And my usage data goes (hopefuly) to protect good shows from being cancelled and bad shows from stinkin' up the joint!
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Can't sleep; consultants will eat me.