You're the one who seemed to think Java was a good development choice. It should be your responsibility to make it work in the required environment.
Yeah, okay dude. You specifically selected your so-called "required environment" to make the comparison fully meaningless. I'll just let you enjoy adding ridiculous constraints to a problem stated in an analogy. I'm sure I could also think up constraints of my own to make your choice of a PIC controller useless, but what's the point? It's an analogy.
well so? - that proves nothing. To make any sort of usefull point you have to compare the same things.
Learn to read between the lines a little bit here. Sure, let's compare the exact same things. Writing the exact same algorithm will, as I said before, take less time, be less error prone, and have less security risks although the code may not be as tight as a perfect assembly writer. We're discussing efficiency here and I gave different algorithms as an example to prove a point which perhaps you missed. Why optimize everything in assembly when a better optimization is often found by using a better algorithm?
I'll take that bet...but since you choose the algorithms, I choose the architectures, and I choose a base-line PIC microcontroller. It has a 2-level deep hardware stack, Let's see your recursive javascript code run on that.
I assume you'll be providing the fully compliant Javascript implementation for the PIC microcontroller?:)
I wonder how large the dataset will have to be before you win?
Yes, this really is the crux of it all and I left that out. I participated in a very interesting challenge to generate 10 unique random numbers in a scripting language. The goal was for minimal time. As it turns out, a simple array check of whether or not the number has been included worked the fastest due to the fact that you're generating only 10 numbers. As soon as it got up to 100 or more, the array approach O(n^2) broke down.
So for a small dataset, I'll award you your prize already.:) For a large, random dataset I think I'd win out on that one. Check out this sorting algorithm demo page (uses Java applets). Looks like the Shear sort kicks ass over all of them.
Efficiency in terms of coding is a wonderful art and I think it's still applicable today. Kernel-level routines, games, drivers, etc. all benefit from tight coding in assembly language.
But let's be honest here. Computer Science 101: an efficient algorithm coded in an inefficient way will always beat out an inefficient algorithm coded by hand in 100% optimized assembly. I'll put my crudely coded Javascript quicksort algorithm against your finely honed 100% assembly bubblesort algorithm any day. Not only will my algorithm beat the pants off of your algorithm, but I'll also code it in far less time and with way fewer debugging sessions than you would. Also, the higher-level language you go, the better it is for security. How easy is it to introduce things like buffer overflows, array out of bounds, etc. errors in assembly? How easy is it to do that in Java, C#, etc.?
So yes, writing in assembly language is still good and has its places. But let's keep it to those places, shall we?
Just to test your theory, I went to the front page of CNN and looked around. Lo and behold, there is a question mark title, "Does war influence vote?" under the "Campus Vibe" box and it's not a poll. Though, granted, the actual article title doesn't have a question mark.
Anyway, your point is well made, but I think it's a different thing for Slashdot vs. CNN. On CNN, you can't read a story which asks you a question and then post your own response in a nicely threaded and moderated forum. In fact, they probably wouldn't want that as asking a question would diminish their desired appearance as a news authority. "What? CNN is unsure? Let me go read/watch something else that is sure!" Slashdot is mostly about the commentary so it makes sense to ask questions to garner feedback from users.
To answer the question, yes. Finding security holes is a good idea.
To the unasked question, "Is finding individual security holes the best possible use of a security researcher's time?", the answer is No. The best use of security research is to classify different types of security holes and use that information to create a development framework where those security holes are extremely difficult to recreate. For example, you're not going to find buffer overruns in Java code, since the memory is dynamically handled for you. Eventually, having security levels, encrypted buffers, etc. will all be part of a standard developer's library.
Cell nets aren't LANs, btw -- they're either MANs or WANs.
Yeah, I was stretching the LAN definition to fit my analogy. And what's a MAN with regards to cellular? Multi Access Network? Metropolitan Area Network?
Yeah, no kidding. This guy had a problem with getting his VOIP implementation working. Well, let me tell you about my vehicle experiences. I once tried to start up a Lada car and drive it down the street. Well, within a few seconds the vehicle crashed into the median and then careened over an embankment and the car was destroyed. Therefore, according to the logic employed by the "VOIP is dead" reporter, all vehicles will never work and we might as well just forget about this whole "driving thing".
Oh, and a non-sarcastic note to others considering writing such drivel: just because your *implementation* sucks, it doesn't imply that the technology itself won't work. Case in point: most of the large long distance providers are already moving to VOIP, such as AT&T. So now when you make a long distance phone call, it's being routed through VOIP. Make that same phone call on a cell phone and now you're doing VOIP on a Wireless Local Area Network.
Shark can make good friendship and companion for any man, woman, or youung child who swim in water's ocean.
Yes, just last month I took my eight year old niece to the aquarium and dropped her into the great white shark tank. You should have seen the wonderful fun playing around they both did. You'd think my niece would have been tired swimming after the shark for half an hour, but you shouldn't underestimate the determination of a child who wants her right leg back.
Dude, no one competes with IBM on patents, they have averaged more than a patent a day for as long as any currently enforceable patent has been in existance.
I think your numbers are just a *tad* off. Yes, they do a bit more than a patent per day. In fact, according to IBM, they get over 6,000 patents per year. That's over 16 every day of the year, or about 24 per business day.
What the hell are you trolling about? Did you even read the post you're replying to? He said that early on in the game, it should require the user to go through a window so that the user will learn that this game DOES allow you to do such things, unlike all the previous games where the windows were simply textures on a static wall. Doing this will allow the person to gradually pick up ideas on how things *can* be done so that, later on in the game, they can choose their own solution from a variety of possibilities.
Nowhere did he say to stick a sign up or guide the user through the whole game. Perhaps you need to go back and re-read the post you replied to because you clearly didn't get it.
Only in the US version of English (and maybe in Canadian English as well, not sure). In UK and Australian English, the name of a corporation, or any group of people, is a plural noun, and the verb is conjugated appropriately.
I've never heard of this difference. How would you conjugate the following?
a) One group _________ b) Two groups ________
I find it difficult to say that since both represents groups of people, they would be conjugated the same, as:
a) One group innovate. b) Two groups innovate.
Even though they're both groups of people, wouldn't you consider whether the entity itself is pluralized or not? And how about a one-person corporation? Is that then represented singularly?
Now given that you're linking to these gallery sites, I'm sure you must make a few bucks here and there from people clicking through. Is it good income?
The stupid ones. Storage is so cheap that 1Gb of space for mail is nothing - I paid less than 60 quid for a drive 120 times than a few days ago. When drives cost less than a pound a Gb, what exactly is the advantage to using Google mail?
I agree with you. It's dirt cheap for storage. However, what GMail offers is the ability to access your email from anywhere you have a web connection, ie: you don't have to lug around that cheap 120 gig drive you bought. It offers fast searching of all your mail, and it stores all of that effortlessly. From what I've heard, it does so very well. Maybe so well that people will start to rely on it to store their important emails. After all, if you accumulate a few hundred megs worth of email over the course of several years, how easy is it to back all of that up on a regular basis given that it's a web-based service?
It's a *free* service, you get what you pay for. No backup medium is 100% reliable, but most reasonable people would consider Hotmail to be a particularly stupid place to keep important information.
True, but how many people here on/. are drooling over Google's 1GB of email storage so they can do the very same thing themselves?
Is that where someone faxes the goatse ascii art to the patent office???
I think it's more along the lines of:
"... a method of expansion of the extremities of the lower intestine via a procedure comprised of first elevating the upper torso in such a manner that the torso and legs are perpendicular, followed by pressure applied by the first and second digits of the left and right hands to the area adjacent to the opening..."
uhh... no it's not- what value have they added that makes it worth $550/acre? nothing! it's just a server...
How about the environment and all the programming to go along with it? After all, you could go and rent a server yourself for $59/month from ValueWeb and offer people unlimited acres. But what good is that since there's no inherent value to owning acreage on your server?
Before the Euro, you could have gone and exchanged all your US dollars for Italian Lire. Start with about $700 US, convert it into Lire, and you'd be a millionaire! Of course, having a million Lire would only buy you the exact same stuff as $700 US would. Or you could create a currency based upon shares of Berkshire Hathaway. Then you'd need almost $90,000 US to get one unit of "Berkshires". All of this is just a long-winded way of saying that exchange rates mean about as much as converting to/from metric. It doesn't matter if you're 6 inches or 15 centimeters, since it's the same thing to the ladies.
Slashdot Mirror
You're the one who seemed to think Java was a good development choice. It should be your responsibility to make it work in the required environment.
Yeah, okay dude. You specifically selected your so-called "required environment" to make the comparison fully meaningless. I'll just let you enjoy adding ridiculous constraints to a problem stated in an analogy. I'm sure I could also think up constraints of my own to make your choice of a PIC controller useless, but what's the point? It's an analogy.
well so? - that proves nothing. To make any sort of usefull point you have to compare the same things.
Learn to read between the lines a little bit here. Sure, let's compare the exact same things. Writing the exact same algorithm will, as I said before, take less time, be less error prone, and have less security risks although the code may not be as tight as a perfect assembly writer. We're discussing efficiency here and I gave different algorithms as an example to prove a point which perhaps you missed. Why optimize everything in assembly when a better optimization is often found by using a better algorithm?
I'll take that bet...but since you choose the algorithms, I choose the architectures, and I choose a base-line PIC microcontroller. It has a 2-level deep hardware stack, Let's see your recursive javascript code run on that.
:)
I assume you'll be providing the fully compliant Javascript implementation for the PIC microcontroller?
I wonder how large the dataset will have to be before you win?
:) For a large, random dataset I think I'd win out on that one. Check out this sorting algorithm demo page (uses Java applets). Looks like the Shear sort kicks ass over all of them.
Yes, this really is the crux of it all and I left that out. I participated in a very interesting challenge to generate 10 unique random numbers in a scripting language. The goal was for minimal time. As it turns out, a simple array check of whether or not the number has been included worked the fastest due to the fact that you're generating only 10 numbers. As soon as it got up to 100 or more, the array approach O(n^2) broke down.
So for a small dataset, I'll award you your prize already.
Efficiency in terms of coding is a wonderful art and I think it's still applicable today. Kernel-level routines, games, drivers, etc. all benefit from tight coding in assembly language.
But let's be honest here. Computer Science 101: an efficient algorithm coded in an inefficient way will always beat out an inefficient algorithm coded by hand in 100% optimized assembly. I'll put my crudely coded Javascript quicksort algorithm against your finely honed 100% assembly bubblesort algorithm any day. Not only will my algorithm beat the pants off of your algorithm, but I'll also code it in far less time and with way fewer debugging sessions than you would. Also, the higher-level language you go, the better it is for security. How easy is it to introduce things like buffer overflows, array out of bounds, etc. errors in assembly? How easy is it to do that in Java, C#, etc.?
So yes, writing in assembly language is still good and has its places. But let's keep it to those places, shall we?
Just to test your theory, I went to the front page of CNN and looked around. Lo and behold, there is a question mark title, "Does war influence vote?" under the "Campus Vibe" box and it's not a poll. Though, granted, the actual article title doesn't have a question mark.
Anyway, your point is well made, but I think it's a different thing for Slashdot vs. CNN. On CNN, you can't read a story which asks you a question and then post your own response in a nicely threaded and moderated forum. In fact, they probably wouldn't want that as asking a question would diminish their desired appearance as a news authority. "What? CNN is unsure? Let me go read/watch something else that is sure!" Slashdot is mostly about the commentary so it makes sense to ask questions to garner feedback from users.
To answer the question, yes. Finding security holes is a good idea.
To the unasked question, "Is finding individual security holes the best possible use of a security researcher's time?", the answer is No. The best use of security research is to classify different types of security holes and use that information to create a development framework where those security holes are extremely difficult to recreate. For example, you're not going to find buffer overruns in Java code, since the memory is dynamically handled for you. Eventually, having security levels, encrypted buffers, etc. will all be part of a standard developer's library.
Cell nets aren't LANs, btw -- they're either MANs or WANs.
Yeah, I was stretching the LAN definition to fit my analogy. And what's a MAN with regards to cellular? Multi Access Network? Metropolitan Area Network?
Enough of the ____ is dead articles.
Yeah, no kidding. This guy had a problem with getting his VOIP implementation working. Well, let me tell you about my vehicle experiences. I once tried to start up a Lada car and drive it down the street. Well, within a few seconds the vehicle crashed into the median and then careened over an embankment and the car was destroyed. Therefore, according to the logic employed by the "VOIP is dead" reporter, all vehicles will never work and we might as well just forget about this whole "driving thing".
Oh, and a non-sarcastic note to others considering writing such drivel: just because your *implementation* sucks, it doesn't imply that the technology itself won't work. Case in point: most of the large long distance providers are already moving to VOIP, such as AT&T. So now when you make a long distance phone call, it's being routed through VOIP. Make that same phone call on a cell phone and now you're doing VOIP on a Wireless Local Area Network.
Will the media keep publishing claims of extraordinary mathematical findings without checking the facts forever?
Well, if they checked the facts forever, they'd never publish anything!
If you're really curious you'd RTFA where most of your questions are addressed.
Shark can make good friendship and companion for any man, woman, or youung child who swim in water's ocean.
Yes, just last month I took my eight year old niece to the aquarium and dropped her into the great white shark tank. You should have seen the wonderful fun playing around they both did. You'd think my niece would have been tired swimming after the shark for half an hour, but you shouldn't underestimate the determination of a child who wants her right leg back.
Dude, no one competes with IBM on patents, they have averaged more than a patent a day for as long as any currently enforceable patent has been in existance.
I think your numbers are just a *tad* off. Yes, they do a bit more than a patent per day. In fact, according to IBM, they get over 6,000 patents per year. That's over 16 every day of the year, or about 24 per business day.
What the hell are you trolling about? Did you even read the post you're replying to? He said that early on in the game, it should require the user to go through a window so that the user will learn that this game DOES allow you to do such things, unlike all the previous games where the windows were simply textures on a static wall. Doing this will allow the person to gradually pick up ideas on how things *can* be done so that, later on in the game, they can choose their own solution from a variety of possibilities.
Nowhere did he say to stick a sign up or guide the user through the whole game. Perhaps you need to go back and re-read the post you replied to because you clearly didn't get it.
Only in the US version of English (and maybe in Canadian English as well, not sure). In UK and Australian English, the name of a corporation, or any group of people, is a plural noun, and the verb is conjugated appropriately.
I've never heard of this difference. How would you conjugate the following?
a) One group _________
b) Two groups ________
I find it difficult to say that since both represents groups of people, they would be conjugated the same, as:
a) One group innovate.
b) Two groups innovate.
Even though they're both groups of people, wouldn't you consider whether the entity itself is pluralized or not? And how about a one-person corporation? Is that then represented singularly?
Now given that you're linking to these gallery sites, I'm sure you must make a few bucks here and there from people clicking through. Is it good income?
Also known as the Bypass McTriple, for a limited time only $49,875.00
The stupid ones. Storage is so cheap that 1Gb of space for mail is nothing - I paid less than 60 quid for a drive 120 times than a few days ago. When drives cost less than a pound a Gb, what exactly is the advantage to using Google mail?
I agree with you. It's dirt cheap for storage. However, what GMail offers is the ability to access your email from anywhere you have a web connection, ie: you don't have to lug around that cheap 120 gig drive you bought. It offers fast searching of all your mail, and it stores all of that effortlessly. From what I've heard, it does so very well. Maybe so well that people will start to rely on it to store their important emails. After all, if you accumulate a few hundred megs worth of email over the course of several years, how easy is it to back all of that up on a regular basis given that it's a web-based service?
It's a *free* service, you get what you pay for. No backup medium is 100% reliable, but most reasonable people would consider Hotmail to be a particularly stupid place to keep important information.
/. are drooling over Google's 1GB of email storage so they can do the very same thing themselves?
True, but how many people here on
Redundant Enlightened Array of Monks -- REAM them!
It's official. Slashdot posts the story three times. It's not a dupe, it's a tripe!
Is that where someone faxes the goatse ascii art to the patent office???
I think it's more along the lines of:
"... a method of expansion of the extremities of the lower intestine via a procedure comprised of first elevating the upper torso in such a manner that the torso and legs are perpendicular, followed by pressure applied by the first and second digits of the left and right hands to the area adjacent to the opening..."
uhh... no it's not- what value have they added that makes it worth $550/acre? nothing! it's just a server...
How about the environment and all the programming to go along with it? After all, you could go and rent a server yourself for $59/month from ValueWeb and offer people unlimited acres. But what good is that since there's no inherent value to owning acreage on your server?
Before the Euro, you could have gone and exchanged all your US dollars for Italian Lire. Start with about $700 US, convert it into Lire, and you'd be a millionaire! Of course, having a million Lire would only buy you the exact same stuff as $700 US would. Or you could create a currency based upon shares of Berkshire Hathaway. Then you'd need almost $90,000 US to get one unit of "Berkshires". All of this is just a long-winded way of saying that exchange rates mean about as much as converting to/from metric. It doesn't matter if you're 6 inches or 15 centimeters, since it's the same thing to the ladies.
To all those who reply in Latin, I say, "non gratis anus rodentium"
The translation of this is, of course: "a rat in your ass is not free".
ps: it's "rodentum"