Uh, yes it does. Unions very precisely prevent bad workers from being fired for cause. For the easiest examples, see public sector unions like police unions and teachers unions.
With the exception of police unions, that's just more stupid bullshit that doesn't survive two seconds of scrutiny. Lets go a head and say that Bob is a 2nd grade teacher, but totally incompetent at his job. That means that every 3rd grade teacher that gets Bob's students are going to have to try and make up for his incompetence. Which means they're going to be the first ones asking that Bob's dumb ass be fired.
Fired. For. Cause. Happens at union shops all the time.
And they absolutely prevent good workers from making more money.
Right. Because Tom Brady (union member) makes the same amount of money as a backbencher who started on the same date he did. Know what does prevent good workers from making more money? Corporate HR pay scales.
Tell that to GM, who pays thousands of workers not to work, even after the bankruptcy avoiding government takeover.
Due to executive decisions. Executives that took golden parachutes. WYP again?
contract negotiations with a union are always about what will keep the majority of the people in the union happy
Democracy is neat that way. It even applies to shareholder votes for the corporation - though I doubt the sort of conservatives that rail against unions have also been railing against shareholder rights.
He wasn't a KKK leader for 60 years, you dumb fuck. He rejected the Klan in his twenties and spent the rest of his life apologizing for it and trying to help minorities - as opposed to Helms or Thurmond. Every time you try to keep making this thing happen - it's not going to happen - you make yourself look as moranic as the wingnuts who keep blaming Clinton for Ruby Ridge after it's been pointed out to them that happened before Clinton was even elected, when Bush was POTUS.
Speaking of which..... Imran Awan
Speaking of which, why haven't you applied yet? You're an incompetent right-winger and they're an incompetent right-wing organization. Hand, meet glove.
The foundation of the accusations about Russian interference are the FBI, CIA and NSA investigations of their activity on social media, funding and meeting with American citizens.
No. It's not. Not even remotely close. Whining about Social Media ads - many of which were placed after the election last November and someone of which involved cute pictures of cats or criticizing a Trump golf course in Scotland - is the last pathetic attempt of partisan hacks desperate to keep their edition of the Whtiewater/Vince Foster witch hunts going. Or didn't you notice the steady moving of the goalposts - from DNC hacking to collusion to $100,000 in ads (many of which were place after the election) in a race where Hillary spent $1.2 biiiiiiiillion dollars?
It's all in that report, why don't you read it?
You mean a report completely lacking in the aforementioned Eh Veh Dence from the same professional liars who sold you on Saddam plotting 911, who spy on Congress while perjuring themselves before Congress?
Did you read the link noting that all this hyperventilation is over drops in an ocean?
Say hi to Uncle Bob for me, as you've turned into a Birther: someone who skates right on by legitimate reasons to oppose a political opponent in favor of engaging in theories so bizarre they wouldn't make it onto Info Wars.
And all so that the corporate Democrats that brought you Trump can make the conversation about Russia and not their epic fail, so they can maintain control and direction over the party. Might as take one of Uncle Bob's "4 more years!" sign and put it on your lawn. Right now.
Better than having to suck Harvey Weinstein's dick for a living. And by "suck Harvey Weinstein's dick", I meant "being in a union".
You and Harvey should be pals, as you're both a couple of dumb right-wingers. Why don't you go into the locker room of a professional sports team - all of whom are unionized - and tell them about all this dick-sucking they've had to do as a part of their jobs.
So, you don't think the Unions had a duty to my parents and their retirements to demand a fully funded pension fund? I do..
lolwut. So you hate unions and think they are unnecessary, but at the same time hate them for not being more powerful because they couldn't force the company to better fund their pensions?
You don't think the Unions didn't make the financial condition of many of the major companies untenable at least partially due to the demands of their Unions? I do.
If the company can't exist without wage slavery, it doesn't deserve to exist. And what part of "unions accept massive cutbacks while executives take golden parachutes" did I stutter on? When was the last time you saw top company executives agree to work for $10 an hour to get the company back on track?
That management gets paid what they do has little to do with the survival or failure of a business. Usually a CEO's salary amounts to pennies on the dollar to the in the trenches worker, yet your ilk want to make some kind of moral argument about how unfair it is that one person gets so much and the new guy gets so little of the company's revenue.
If you think that was an explanation for why CEO's get increased pay even as their decisions drive the company into the ground, you are sadly mistaken.
Personally I'm tired of the arguments born out of class envy
Like it or not, this country has EQUAL opportunity codified in our laws but we DON'T have equal outcome guarantees.
If you don't have equal outcomes statistically then by definition you do not have equal opportunity.
Otherwise your Starbucks barista would have an equal chance of having a last name of Rockefellar as your Fortune 500 CEO has a chance of growing up in a double-wide. But of course that's not the case.
Just can't help yourself, can you? Went ahead and fucked the Byrd chicken after that canard was prebutted.
They ARE the party of bigots, anti-gay
Yes, right-wing Democrats like Hillary "Superpredators" Clinton did oppose marriage equality right up until the Supreme Court made the point moot. It's why I rub those facts of Hillbots who Swiftboated their opponent Sanders for being weak on minorities.
WYP?
Is there anything immoral the DNC could do that you wouldn't defend them for?
I'm a leftist, dumbass. The DNC organization can go die in a fire. They're right wing hacks like yourself - and I hear they have a position open for an IT worker. You have so much in common!
What does the DNC emails have to do with Russian inference?
Are you....kidding? It's only the foundation for for the accusations that Russia tried to interfere with the election. No big whoop.
Your entire argument seems to be that because you found everything to be fake everything else no matter how unrelated must also be fake.
FTFY2.
This seems to be a standard tactic of alternative fact peddlers. CNN made a mistake once, therefore everything they ever reported is fake news.
Your projection is noted - Russiagate is the definition of fake news.
Don't like that? Then come up with more evidence than what Birthers, Chem Trailers and Sandy Hook Truthers do to support their theories. Or admit you've turned into that cranky Uncle Bob on Facebook who insists to this day that Obama really was a Kenyan-born Muslim with a fake birth certificate.
Agreed then. The other eyeroll-inducing part of this story is how he's calling this a mass firing instead of layoffs, purely to avoid paying unemployment benefits. Elon, you're really telling us you've been collecting a list of people to be terminated with cause but waited until now to do it, because reasons?
I find that employees are generally treated much worse in union jobs, because employees are not allowed to expand grow, or go outside their predefined jobs, thus they are confined to what their title says they are.
So you engage in the same sort of magical thinking that has you wanting to do your work plus Steve's and Bob's down the hall (so they can slack off) the second you join a union.
Also I find a lot more layoffs happen in Union shops than non-unioned ones. Because when it is time to work with a contract for the next period a company has only one shot to try to get rid of some of the workers
As much as you'd want to drive the company into the ground the second you landed a management position, just so you can collect that golden parachute when the company goes under. Makes as much sense.
Cool story bro. How great has it been, working for less money and fewer benefits while being able to be shown the door for reasons that have nothing to do with the work you do?
Unions back then were important, because the end of your job could also be the end of your career, and Unions were needed to protect workers from such drastic actions.
"Back then" companies were happy to exploit workers within an inch of their lives - and beyond - if it made them a few more dollars in profit. That hasn't changed, so neither has the need for unions.
but nothing so fancy that he shouldn't have been able to get those benefits had he been a better negotiator
vs
One of the things that frustrated my dad the most is that this meant kids fresh out of college were now making the same hourly rate as he did with his decades of experience.
Did the lightbulb flicker a bit before it went out? Your dad would have made far more money if he had been in a union from the start, without having to be a hardball negotiator on top of being a mechanic.
and this agrees with my own perspective--unions promote mediocrity
Well, it's you and your dad's choice to be good little Calvinists for corporate benefit, but the "unions promote mediocrity" line is and always has been bullshit. Nothing about unions prevents good workers from making more money or bad workers from being fired for cause. And union workers are far more invested in a company's success than corporate executives, who are happy to give themselves raises while driving the business into the ground.
A lot of his coworkers also started doing the minimum they could get away with because they now had a guaranteed 32-hour/week salary even if they only showed up to sit on the bench all day.
Also bullshit. This "unions reward the lazy" storyline is built around the idea that the second your dad joined a union, he was happy to do his work plus that of all the people sitting around. Human beings are simply not built that way, unless your dad was George McFly to the young Biff Tannen's in the shop - in which case he'd be doing their work anyway without or without a union.
Maybe many of the pro-union workers were the lowest performing. As a worker unions do nothing good except demand dues. It's like a mafia shakedown.
Right. In the same way that the instant you decide to own your own business, it means you'll rip off your lenders and customers while sexually harassing your secretary. It's like Enron!
I get paid well and I'm not in a union.... Unions are NOT the only way to be fairly paid...
...than your unique snowflake ass and he's in a union. So does every professional athlete.
Also, such "pay us what we define as fair or else" killed every major airline and car maker in the country in the end
Randian Horseshit. Union workers are entirely dependent on the welfare of the company for their jobs and retirement. As opposed to executives who can drive the company into the ground and collect golden parachutes even in bankruptcy. Like when airline unions accepted massive pay and benefit cuts for US Airways to stay afloat, only for executives to get large severance packages when the company went under.
A union that has been around 100 years has a good chance of having accumulated enough cruft that it's basically just another exploitive management structure feeding off of the workers productivity for little real benefit.
Unions should dissolve when they've achieved their goals and re-form when the are needed again.
You applying that same logic to corporations, Slick? Should IBM dissolve itself for your arbitrary ad hoc reasons? How about JP Morgan?
What anti-union company is not going to use general terminations to rid itself of organizers? I think Musk is a latter day Thomas Edison - that is not a compliment - but I don't think he's an idiot. Anyone in a non-union position can find out very quickly that companies have lots of ways to fire people.
Started a civil war to keep slavery Tried to prevent women from voting Tried to keep segregation in place Tried to prevent civil rights for blacks
The parties traded places fifty years ago, dumbass. This is not news. And skip Robert Byrd as he spent the rest of his life apologizing for joining the Klan, as opposed to Republicans like Strom Thurmond and Jesse Helms who went to their graves as Dixiecrats.
Protect sexual molesters because they donate money
You mean right-wing corporate democrats whoring themselves out for money?
The Russian's hacked power plants storyline was bullshit. CrowdStrike is bullshit. The "17 intelligence agencies" line was bullshit. The Russia hacked election systems is bullshit.
find this report by the Director of National Intelligence particularly interesting
Sure, lets look at this - while remembering the FBI wasn't allowed to examine the DNC servers so how exactly would they have "high confidence" in any thing - but this time noting the weasel words:
We also assess Putin and the Russian Government aspired to help President-elect Trump's election chances when possible by discrediting Secretary Clinton and publicly contrasting her unfavorably to him. All three agencies agree with this judgment. CIA and FBI have high confidence in this judgment; NSA has moderate confidence.
Zero evidence provided, only claims and accusations. Well guess what Chem Trailers, Sandy Hook Truthers and Birthers have? Claims and accusations.
Then there's the fact the entire "Russia wanted Trump to win so hacked the election" makes no sense whatsoever. The election was Hillary's to lose, right up until she picked Tim Kaine as her running mate and decided to skip campaigning in Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, Iowa, and Michigan. So according to the storyline, Putin was crafty enough to dig up dirt on Hillary (which was all true) but dumb enough to collude with someone as dumb as Trump. Which means the CIA, NSA & FBI would know all about it. Which meant Hillary would too, who had already campaigned on shooting down Russian jets in Syria. So what's really going on?
The entire "Russian hacking" storyline is nothing but Swiftboating from Clinton supporters, as she was the candidate who engaged in corrupt collusion with Russian interests to sell a fifth of America's uranium.
And you can skip that Snopes link that handwaives away Hillary's culpability for a number of reasons: 1) Access iscorruption 2) Avoiding the appearance of impropriety applies to politicians, not just judges 3) Her own campaign was warned internally that the deal was a political liability for her 4) Hillary flat-out broke her confirmation promises on keeping a wall between the State Department and the Clinton Foundation
At this point, Chem Trailing anti-vaxxer Birther Sandy Hook Truthers have more respectability than Russiagaters.
It's right wing Democrats who keep fucking the Russian chicken, though they've been reduced to talking about Pokemon and Russian internet ads (many of which came AFTER the election, and one of which was for a documentary attacking a Trump golf course). They clutch onto that raft so they don't have to admit they nominated an even worse candidate than Trump to run for the presidency.
And before the Russian chicken came a long, right-wing Democrats were fucking the "white male privilege" chicken with abandon, ever since Obama clinched the primary in 2008. Because right-wing Democrats are just as happy as right-wing Republicans to keep people divided on race when they should be uniting on class.
Slashdot Mirror
Corporate Democrat politics. Which are inherently right-wing.
Any more water-is-wet questions?
With the exception of police unions, that's just more stupid bullshit that doesn't survive two seconds of scrutiny. Lets go a head and say that Bob is a 2nd grade teacher, but totally incompetent at his job. That means that every 3rd grade teacher that gets Bob's students are going to have to try and make up for his incompetence. Which means they're going to be the first ones asking that Bob's dumb ass be fired.
Fired. For. Cause. Happens at union shops all the time.
Right. Because Tom Brady (union member) makes the same amount of money as a backbencher who started on the same date he did. Know what does prevent good workers from making more money? Corporate HR pay scales.
Due to executive decisions. Executives that took golden parachutes. WYP again?
Democracy is neat that way. It even applies to shareholder votes for the corporation - though I doubt the sort of conservatives that rail against unions have also been railing against shareholder rights.
There otta be clawbacks and prison terms for those kind of shenanigans.
Edit: you're not the AC. That's what I get for trying to combine replies. AC, the rest still applies to you.
He wasn't a KKK leader for 60 years, you dumb fuck. He rejected the Klan in his twenties and spent the rest of his life apologizing for it and trying to help minorities - as opposed to Helms or Thurmond. Every time you try to keep making this thing happen - it's not going to happen - you make yourself look as moranic as the wingnuts who keep blaming Clinton for Ruby Ridge after it's been pointed out to them that happened before Clinton was even elected, when Bush was POTUS.
Speaking of which, why haven't you applied yet? You're an incompetent right-winger and they're an incompetent right-wing organization. Hand, meet glove.
No. It's not. Not even remotely close. Whining about Social Media ads - many of which were placed after the election last November and someone of which involved cute pictures of cats or criticizing a Trump golf course in Scotland - is the last pathetic attempt of partisan hacks desperate to keep their edition of the Whtiewater/Vince Foster witch hunts going. Or didn't you notice the steady moving of the goalposts - from DNC hacking to collusion to $100,000 in ads (many of which were place after the election) in a race where Hillary spent $1.2 biiiiiiiillion dollars?
You mean a report completely lacking in the aforementioned Eh Veh Dence from the same professional liars who sold you on Saddam plotting 911, who spy on Congress while perjuring themselves before Congress?
Did you read the link noting that all this hyperventilation is over drops in an ocean?
Say hi to Uncle Bob for me, as you've turned into a Birther: someone who skates right on by legitimate reasons to oppose a political opponent in favor of engaging in theories so bizarre they wouldn't make it onto Info Wars.
And all so that the corporate Democrats that brought you Trump can make the conversation about Russia and not their epic fail, so they can maintain control and direction over the party. Might as take one of Uncle Bob's "4 more years!" sign and put it on your lawn. Right now.
You and Harvey should be pals, as you're both a couple of dumb right-wingers. Why don't you go into the locker room of a professional sports team - all of whom are unionized - and tell them about all this dick-sucking they've had to do as a part of their jobs.
lolwut. So you hate unions and think they are unnecessary, but at the same time hate them for not being more powerful because they couldn't force the company to better fund their pensions?
If the company can't exist without wage slavery, it doesn't deserve to exist. And what part of "unions accept massive cutbacks while executives take golden parachutes" did I stutter on? When was the last time you saw top company executives agree to work for $10 an hour to get the company back on track?
If you think that was an explanation for why CEO's get increased pay even as their decisions drive the company into the ground, you are sadly mistaken.
There it is. You sir, are a temporarily embarrassed millionaire.
If you don't have equal outcomes statistically then by definition you do not have equal opportunity.
Otherwise your Starbucks barista would have an equal chance of having a last name of Rockefellar as your Fortune 500 CEO has a chance of growing up in a double-wide. But of course that's not the case.
Just can't help yourself, can you? Went ahead and fucked the Byrd chicken after that canard was prebutted.
Yes, right-wing Democrats like Hillary "Superpredators" Clinton did oppose marriage equality right up until the Supreme Court made the point moot. It's why I rub those facts of Hillbots who Swiftboated their opponent Sanders for being weak on minorities.
WYP?
I'm a leftist, dumbass. The DNC organization can go die in a fire. They're right wing hacks like yourself - and I hear they have a position open for an IT worker. You have so much in common!
Dunno, I skipped the parts that were completely incoherent.
Are you....kidding? It's only the foundation for for the accusations that Russia tried to interfere with the election. No big whoop.
FTFY2.
Your projection is noted - Russiagate is the definition of fake news.
Don't like that? Then come up with more evidence than what Birthers, Chem Trailers and Sandy Hook Truthers do to support their theories. Or admit you've turned into that cranky Uncle Bob on Facebook who insists to this day that Obama really was a Kenyan-born Muslim with a fake birth certificate.
Eh.
Veh.
Dence.
Agreed then. The other eyeroll-inducing part of this story is how he's calling this a mass firing instead of layoffs, purely to avoid paying unemployment benefits. Elon, you're really telling us you've been collecting a list of people to be terminated with cause but waited until now to do it, because reasons?
So you engage in the same sort of magical thinking that has you wanting to do your work plus Steve's and Bob's down the hall (so they can slack off) the second you join a union.
As much as you'd want to drive the company into the ground the second you landed a management position, just so you can collect that golden parachute when the company goes under. Makes as much sense.
Cool story bro. How great has it been, working for less money and fewer benefits while being able to be shown the door for reasons that have nothing to do with the work you do?
"Back then" companies were happy to exploit workers within an inch of their lives - and beyond - if it made them a few more dollars in profit. That hasn't changed, so neither has the need for unions.
vs
Did the lightbulb flicker a bit before it went out? Your dad would have made far more money if he had been in a union from the start, without having to be a hardball negotiator on top of being a mechanic.
Well, it's you and your dad's choice to be good little Calvinists for corporate benefit, but the "unions promote mediocrity" line is and always has been bullshit. Nothing about unions prevents good workers from making more money or bad workers from being fired for cause. And union workers are far more invested in a company's success than corporate executives, who are happy to give themselves raises while driving the business into the ground.
Also bullshit. This "unions reward the lazy" storyline is built around the idea that the second your dad joined a union, he was happy to do his work plus that of all the people sitting around. Human beings are simply not built that way, unless your dad was George McFly to the young Biff Tannen's in the shop - in which case he'd be doing their work anyway without or without a union.
FTFY. You may want to check your auto-correct settings.
Right. In the same way that the instant you decide to own your own business, it means you'll rip off your lenders and customers while sexually harassing your secretary. It's like Enron!
Randian Horseshit. Union workers are entirely dependent on the welfare of the company for their jobs and retirement. As opposed to executives who can drive the company into the ground and collect golden parachutes even in bankruptcy. Like when airline unions accepted massive pay and benefit cuts for US Airways to stay afloat, only for executives to get large severance packages when the company went under.
You applying that same logic to corporations, Slick? Should IBM dissolve itself for your arbitrary ad hoc reasons? How about JP Morgan?
What anti-union company is not going to use general terminations to rid itself of organizers? I think Musk is a latter day Thomas Edison - that is not a compliment - but I don't think he's an idiot. Anyone in a non-union position can find out very quickly that companies have lots of ways to fire people.
The parties traded places fifty years ago, dumbass. This is not news. And skip Robert Byrd as he spent the rest of his life apologizing for joining the Klan, as opposed to Republicans like Strom Thurmond and Jesse Helms who went to their graves as Dixiecrats.
You mean right-wing corporate democrats whoring themselves out for money?
...to send me your life savings?
Fixed that for you.
The Russian's hacked power plants storyline was bullshit.
CrowdStrike is bullshit.
The "17 intelligence agencies" line was bullshit.
The Russia hacked election systems is bullshit.
Sure, lets look at this - while remembering the FBI wasn't allowed to examine the DNC servers so how exactly would they have "high confidence" in any thing - but this time noting the weasel words:
Zero evidence provided, only claims and accusations. Well guess what Chem Trailers, Sandy Hook Truthers and Birthers have? Claims and accusations.
Then there's the fact the entire "Russia wanted Trump to win so hacked the election" makes no sense whatsoever. The election was Hillary's to lose, right up until she picked Tim Kaine as her running mate and decided to skip campaigning in Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, Iowa, and Michigan. So according to the storyline, Putin was crafty enough to dig up dirt on Hillary (which was all true) but dumb enough to collude with someone as dumb as Trump. Which means the CIA, NSA & FBI would know all about it. Which meant Hillary would too, who had already campaigned on shooting down Russian jets in Syria. So what's really going on?
The entire "Russian hacking" storyline is nothing but Swiftboating from Clinton supporters, as she was the candidate who engaged in corrupt collusion with Russian interests to sell a fifth of America's uranium.
And you can skip that Snopes link that handwaives away Hillary's culpability for a number of reasons:
1) Access is corruption
2) Avoiding the appearance of impropriety applies to politicians, not just judges
3) Her own campaign was warned internally that the deal was a political liability for her
4) Hillary flat-out broke her confirmation promises on keeping a wall between the State Department and the Clinton Foundation
At this point, Chem Trailing anti-vaxxer Birther Sandy Hook Truthers have more respectability than Russiagaters.
It's right wing Democrats who keep fucking the Russian chicken, though they've been reduced to talking about Pokemon and Russian internet ads (many of which came AFTER the election, and one of which was for a documentary attacking a Trump golf course). They clutch onto that raft so they don't have to admit they nominated an even worse candidate than Trump to run for the presidency.
And before the Russian chicken came a long, right-wing Democrats were fucking the "white male privilege" chicken with abandon, ever since Obama clinched the primary in 2008. Because right-wing Democrats are just as happy as right-wing Republicans to keep people divided on race when they should be uniting on class.