You can build a "copy" of XP (its called LINUX) and give it away. Just like the case of the spear, you can build your own. What you cannot do is take your neighbor's spear (pirate XP) and sell that. There is the difference, LINUX is legal, pirating XP is not, You may not use the property (intellectual or otherwise) of another without that person's permission. Besides, who needs the viruses andother problems.
Your argument falls apart just like everyone else's in this thread because COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT IS NOT THEFT. No one is "taking" their neighbor's copy of XP. They are merely copying it. The biggest issue we face in this discussion is making the realization that the work "steal" is being used improperly.
Copyright infringement is breaking the law. It is stealing. You are taking something you do not have any right to. The only reason why stealing music and software occur far more frequently is that the perceived likelihood of getting caught and punished is low or non-existant compared to stealing a car or robbing a bank. Your argument is total BS.
You prove nothing. It is NOT stealing. Please explain to me how it is. You cannot call my argument BS when you have no evidence to support your argument. Downloading off the internet has NEVER been stealing under the laws of the US.
So? they're within their right to charge what ever they want, its their software. On the other hand if you feel this is an unfair price its your right not to purchase it. Just because you disagree with the list price of something does not give you the right to take it. I don't have the right to download Office because I can't afford it any more then its my right to jack a BMW because its expensive but I still want one.
Exactly. Did you actually read the part where I said that this supposed newfound "immorality" is NOT affecting the auto industry? People are not jacking BMW's at left and right because that is theft, downloading music, software, and movies IS NOT THEFT. It's something called COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT. It's a civil matter and people are sued in court but are not jailed. It is completely different than stealing.
You can argue that piracy isn't stealing till your blue in the face, one, it doesn't change the fact its illegal, two, you took something you have no right to , and three, the meaning of words change, language is not a static entity, so if the general population uses the word steal in the context of downloading music, movies or software, guess what it comes to mean. If you don't believe me, look up the word Gay some time.
There is also a point in being exact with your words. When you claim people are breaking some law, when they really are not, it makes a big difference what you say. The dynamic aspect of language does not change how laws work, nor should it.
> does Maxima compare well to Mathematica and does Octave compare well to Matlab?
Not even in the same league.
Peace
Admittedly I don't use either Octave or Maxima but from everything I have read from users, Octave is largenly compatible with Matlab, and not difficult to transition to at all. Maxima has been around in some from since the 60's and is probably responsible for the development of software like Mathematica. Have you actually used the software or are you just making a general "OSS programs suck compared to commercial ones" statement?
Shareware is dead. Freeloaders just aren't willing to follow a valid system of try before you buy--they just want the whole thing for free. Morality and ethics are gone in a new era of hax0r kiddies who hang out in IRC all day and never even dream of heading to a software store to buy something.
You're being a little overdramatic. Morality has not gone by the wayside because joe user downloads mp3's off the internet.
Microsoft wants four hundred dollars for Office. Four Hundred! It costs twenty dollars for a CD and ten bucks to get into a movie, nevermind the ten more dollars you spend on soda and a popcorn. There is a reason people infringe copyright (which is not stealing, you do not deprive another person of anything). The prices are too high and most of what is available is crap. This surge in "stealing" hasn't affected the auto industry or any other industry for that matter, because it's not stealing and it's not a fall into depravity. It's just the realization that we're all getting screwed.
When it comes to shareware, they just don't offer enough for the money. Who would pay fifteen dollars for a screensaver or an archive tool. It's rediculous. These things are a commodity. They have been for quite some time. People are also sick of being swindled by the software industry when learn that they have to pay a big chunck of change just to get their computer to do what they bought it for.
To italicize just put a (without quotes) "<i>" before the text you wish to italicize and a "</i>" after the text you wish to italicize. After posting several replies you will just get used to it. In fact I find myself doing it in other places where it does not work and I end up with "<i>" everywhere.
I guess this is just where we differ. The world economy is not the first thing that comes to my mind when discussing outsourcing. You may think it is a defect in my thinking but I think the opposite is a defect in thinking. It is personal opinion I guess.
I'm not being callous when I say that there WILL be people put out by it, but it moves rote low-skilled jobs overseas so that the American economy can move into the next phase of growth, whether it's in space, energy, biotech, or whatnot. It keeps us ahead.
The problem I see with this kind of thinking is that there always going to be people that are left behind. Not everyone in the US has the education to get a biotech job. While the economy keeps moving along, what happens to the guy who worked in a manufacturing plant and doesn't have the skills, money, or possibely even the intelligence to do something high tech when he loses his job? I guess he's just not a part of the American dream. The other big issue I have with outsourcing so much is that we are cutting ourselves off from raw materials and production. Our country could easily be cut off at the knees by foreign interests if there was ever a reason for them to do it.
It's absurd to think you know what regard anyone, let alone everyone, has for anything. Who cares if it's a useless status symbol? That may be a vapid truth, but it helps you none in actually showing that you're right when you suppose you know the truth about all those horrible, apathetic H2 owners. Congrats, you've learned to see an H2 on the road and immediately judge the person driving it. How open-minded you are!
I see no problem in faulting people for their poor decisions. The H2 in itself is a piece of junk AND it is overpriced. That is the only reason for its popularity, the price. So, considering it is not an ideal vehicle in ANY sitution, for ANY purpose, it is a waste of money, a waste of resources, and a detriment to the environment. It's easy to judge someone when their poor decisions affect others adversely.
You're basing your claim on YOUR suppositions about the resilience threshold of the environment, at the same time assuming some things about the usage of the H2s by their owners. It IS a huge, showy, expensive auto -- and plenty of people who own things like that own 3 or more cars, and take the showy one out (be it a BMW, a Thunderbird reissue, a vintage, or whatnot) very rarely, or even as much as once or a couple times a week. And guess what they're not doing when they do that? Driving the family from NY to FL on vacation. There are others who do use it as their primary vehicle, but that doesn't at all justify your blanket accusations.
My accusations are justified. They have no positives as a vehicle, only negatives. You are getting so defensive I am starting to believe you are an H2 owner.
Oh yeah, and thanks for bringing up their uselessness and status symbolism -- it exhibits that they ARE iconic (as an extreme example) of stuff you dislike. You hate H2s, but you love Chevy Suburbans and H1s, right? Excursions? Nope, if you're intellectually honest, you dislike those as gas guzzlers, too. But the H2 is iconic because it's the most overt (that's the one you brought up, right?), and you let that emotion take you to automatic and unjustified conclusions about their owners.
You are making assumptions. I do not like gas guzzling trucks in general but some of them DO serve a purpose. I still dislike any full size truck without a diesel engine though because it makes no sense any way you look at it.
Look, the true point is that I shouldn't have to justify any of this: if you can't see the rash illogic of what you said, you shouldn't be a mathematician, a programmer, a scientist, or any other occupation that relies on reasoning abilities. And if you recognize it, admit it.
Quite the opposite. You are the one being rash and illogical. You are showing more emotion in this discussion than I. I am looking at this from a strictly utilitarian point of view.
Yeah, H2s are more polluting than most other vehicles (if not all other consumer vehicles). What do you drive? Man, if you don't drive a hybrid or something better, I bet the Prius people really look down on YOU. And the cyclists and Segway folks look down on THEM.
You are forcing an opinion on me that is not my own. I am not advocating that everyone trade in their cars for bicycles. Cars do serve a purpose, especially in the US. I would like them to get more efficient and an H2 is a step in the wrong direction. I don't hate all SUVs or sports cars or anything like that. The H2 is beyond disgustingly inefficient.
Everyone's got their own view of what's acceptable and what the environment can tolerate, and as long as you intentionally stay beneath what YOU TRULY BELIEVE for that reason, it's true that you care about the environment. You can do better, sure, but you can't make up for everyone else who's over their limit -- there's no end to that. I'm sure plenty of H2 owners care about the environment, but think their use of the H2 is within the per capita environmental tolerance. You can call that foolish, if you want, or wrong
You're taking an idea and running with it. "Exploiting cheap labor" is a catchphrase used to immediately inject some sinister overtones into the topic of a company gaining huge advantages by hiring workers at cheaper rates than in their domestic economies. Guess what?? It's almost always good for both sides!
That was a very good explanation of your point...err..not. Exactly how is it better for the worker that just got laid off?
The workers freely choose to work there. No one's saying it's paradise, but it's a step up, or they wouldn't have accepted the jobs.
The people don't have much choice when they don't have a job to begin with. It's either, work in horrible conditions for little pay, or don't work at all. There's not really a decision to be made.
No one wants to work in unsafe conditions, and such is NOT part and parcel with cheap outsourcing. If you don't like unsafe conditions, campaign against THAT -- not cheap labor in general. Separate the issues and be logical.
The problem isn't so much unsafe work conditions in the US, but they do exist. The problem is conditions in other countries. By not demanding the same conditions for companies that choose to outsource, there is not much anyone can do. That's probably the only thing that can be changed and that is exactly what I am talking about (forcing companies to maintain the same safety standards). I don't think I have the political clout to change laws in other countries, especially non-democractic ones.
Publix (or Safeway, or Wal-Mart, or whatever pleases you) doesn't sell you your bread out of benevolence -- it's all to make a buck. Does the lack of an altrustic motive rob the bread of its value? No -- just the opposite, since through competition prices are lowered and the value of your money (and therefore your labor) is increased, since you can now buy more bread with it.
Thankfully I care more about quality than price. I'll spend the extra dough on something nice, or something homemade, or something made in the USA. I have nothing against other countries, in fact I'm not so keen on the US governement at the moment, but this is still my country and it is losing its ability to sustain itself at a rapid pace. The national debt is ballooning again as it was during the Reagan years and even our bitch, the IMF doesn't have such nice things to say about us. I'll try support US made products and US workers when I can. Money makes this country go 'round.
Take an economics course, and actually think about it, instead of reacting emotionally to your apparent desire for us all to hold hands under a rainbow and share together, and do things only out of benevolence for our comrades. Not that I disagree with that metaphorical goal in the end, but free-market, low-regulation capitalism's the superior, if not the only, way to maximize the efficient allocation of goods to everyone who needs them.
Thanks but I've already taken many econ classes. That doesn't make a lick of difference though. My arguments stem from things I learned outside those econ classes. Money isn't everything.
Also, don't generalize like this -- it's intellectually weak. This is a case of you basing your logic on examples that emotionally strike you as being iconic of something you dislike, with no reason involved. Plenty of H2 owners use the thing for in-town driving only, just to make a showy appearance of it on occasion, but you can bet they're using a lot less gas than plenty of others who drive their Civics 3 times as far to get to work each day.
Maybe you shouldn't jump to conclusions. I don't dislike H2's for their sheer size or any iconic value at all. I despise those gas guzzling monsters because they are USELESS. Driving around in town in a H2 is definitely wasting more gas than a Civic driving three times as far. An H2 is getting less than 10 mpg, probably around 5 in town. A Civic will probably get around 30 on the highway. Besides that you can get a truck with a Diesel that is not only better for towing but better on gas too. An H2 is nothing more than a status symbol and a gross waste of resources.
So employing people who happen to have brown skin is evil?
Who said anything about brown skin? If you are implying that I am a racist then I resent that remark. Besides, eastern europe is full of cheap labor, and those countries are mostly white, not that it matters at all.
Helping to raise the standard of living and stability of poorer nations is evil?
Reducing the prices that people have to pay for goods and services is evil?
Yes. It's evil to exploit the work of a poor country, with no living wage, no health standards, and no regulations, for a buck. I'm sure the price of products these days wouldn't be so high if the average wage of CEOs wasn't rising at 4 times the rate of the average worker.
I know there is no sense it replying to an obvious troll but what the hell!
I'm cool cuz i can be a dumbass prick and take apart someone's thread making it look like he's wrong!
Hmmm. Nope. I don't think so. I merely pointed out inaccuracies.
YOU DUMBASS PIECE OF SHIT!
You are clever!
WINDOWS IS PERFECTLY FINE FOR THE VAST MAJORITY OF USERS!
Your point? I never said it wasn't.
WINDOWS XP IS DAMN STABLE... IVE BEEN RUNNING FOR YEARS DOING FAR MORE THAN THE AVERAVE LINUX USER DOES WITHOUT A CRASH.... mainly because the average Linux user gets nothing useful done due to having to build and recompile everything every other day, WHILE IM USING THE DAMN SOFTWARE AND ACCOMPLISHING THINGS.
It's actually not difficult at all to compile something and do something else at the same time. It's not rocket science. You don't have to recompile anything either if you don't want to.
YOU JUST CANT STAND THE THOUGHT THAT SOMEONE CAN OPERATE WELL, FAST, AND PROFITABLY USING WINDOWS!
When did I say that? More power to you if you can, just don't pretend problems don't exist on that platform, like they do on others.
WELL NYAH NYAH NYAH NYAH ASSHOLE! YOU ARE THE LONELY GEEK WHO CAN'T SEE THE LIGHT.
More lively debate.
What world are you from!?! have you even tried to use windows? Most programs DO INDEED share similar user interfaces that are intuitive and functional... not like all the crap that just doesnt work or does nothing like what it says on my linux computer.
What world are you from!?! have you even tried to use KDE? Most programs DO INDEED share similar user interfaces that are intuitive and functional... not like all the crap that just doesnt work or does nothing like what it says on my windows computer.
Linux is not more secure, it just hasn't been attacked.
You must have accidentally deleted the part where you supplied evidence to back that claim up.
If Windows crashed twice a day for you, then you must be one of those pricks who goes through deleting every other file on the C drive trying to save space, thinking none of it is needed.
This just gets funnier and funnier. I'm going to reference this post, and this entire thread in fact, when some bozo tries to exlcaim that Linux users are always trying to pick fights while Windows users don't EVER do that and don't care enough to in the first place. Most replies have been quite defensive (and offensive) considering I did nothing more than cite inaccuracies in the parent post.
10 minutes! damn you Ive spent weeeeeeks trying just to successfully compile some of those free linux programs with their none-existant manuals, and errors everywhere where there are any instructions.
Linux has binaries too ya know. Besides that, you can actually compile an entire (relatively new) system from scratch in less than a day if you felt like it. Maybe if you have trouble compiling something you should ask questions instead of freaking out on/.
WHOooWOOOooo you are fine with solitaire! yippee fucking dooo! some of us actually try to USE OUR COMPUTERS TO THEIR FULLEST! I bet mahjong is that one program you managed to install with the packet manager in a mere 10 minutes. try doing useful work quickly and you'll see the difference!
Did you read my post? I said those were the only two games I really played on my computer, not that that's all I ever used my PC for. In fact I rarely even play those games. I'm too busy coding. Read before you criticize.
go back to your mahjong and solitaire while we get real work done.
Wow, you've blown away his claim by...not offering any counterpoint. Just telling him he's wrong. Nice. You actually cite GNOME and KDE as evidence, when the fact you have two competing desktop environments invalidates your entire point that they're consistent at all.
My point is that you can have a complete KDE or Gnome Desktop and be more consistent and more complete than Windows. You're just not getting it. 3rd party apps are not consistent at all, on Winodws or Linux. Gnome/KDE are more consistent because they offer more applications than Windows, and each of those applications is consistent with others within the DE.
This is just an outright lie. You can find Windows freeware in seconds. There is plenty out there, and it doesn't take "hours searching the web." Ever heard of Google? You're just making shit up to bolster your argument.
You can find Windows freeware in seconds but you can't always find what you want. There are hundreds of programs that do the same thing, scattered all over the web. It's much easier to find what you are looking for in a central location. You forget that it's not always easy to track down what you are looking for when you're not sure such an application even exists to suit your needs.
Again--Google. They call it a "search engine," don't ask me why.
Thanks but I've been using it for several years now. That still doesn't make everything exactly simple to find. I would see your point if the only programs I needed were Winamp and Winzip, but there are a lot of useful but obscure programs that are not a simple google search away.
Wow, can't argue with that kind of subject, anecdotal evidence. "The only difference is that Free Software is generally much better than Freeware." Care to cite examples? Evidence of any kind? Proof?
Show me one Freeware kernel, compiler, and/or utilities that come close to GNU/Linux. How about a freeware DE?
Besides, you just contradicted your earlier claim that it takes you "hours of searching on the web" for Windows programs. Now all the sudden you can just visit Tucows? Sweet.
Once again, not everything is located there. There are many more useful apps not listed on tucows than is listed.
It's a serious gripe. Keeping track of endless arcane project names is more difficult than remembering Winzip, Microsoft Word, or WinDVD. On Linux, it's "tar -jxpvf something.tar.gz" or something called "xine" that doesn't even have an Open button--it has a "://" button that calls itself an "MRL Browser." At least there's KOffice, even if the K-prefix naming scheme is completely amateur and unprofessional.
Yeah, the paperclip and the dog are REAL professional. Good point. The real reason this is a problem for Windows users is that they are used to Windows dynamically adding menu entries which is a pain in the ass for people like me.
Then stick with solitaire and mahjong forever. If Linux desktops had a proper binary installation/uninstallation API that created uninstaller instructions, menu entries, and so on, you'd have commercial vendors writing more applications. But for that to happen, APIs would have to settle down. Can you run a Red Hat binary from six years ago on a Red Hat system today? No. But you can run a Windows 3.1 app on XP today (you can even run some Windows 1.0 apps).
Ask me if I care.
No, you wouldn't. Have you used an OEM Windows machine? They come with Office, DVD players and rippers, music players, e-mail, games, and more.
Yeah and they all suck. Sonic, WinDVD, MusicMatch, MS Works...c'mon, get real. There are tons of better OSS and commercial programs.
Except that it takes way more than ten minutes to learn most Linux applications. Most of them are hacked together in QT over a weekend by some non-intuitive programmer who thinks GUIs are evil compared to the command-line. If you want to keep with that, have at it, and the rest of the world wil
What qualifies and quantifies "ruining people's lives"? Be specific. Don't give examples. I want to know how you measure it.
How can you "be specific" and not give examples? Apparently you want to make it impossible to answer your question. I'll do it anyway but I can't see a way around breaking your rules.
Outsourcing, it's easy to measure, just count the jobs that have gone overseas that could have easily been done here. Low minimum wage, below the poverty level is unacceptable. Unsafe work conditions, exposure to harmful materials and dangerous equipment should be closely regulated. This means that if you are working with something than can kill you, you should be properly protected and notified of the possible harm.
What qualifies and quantifies "ruining the environment"? Be specific. Don't give examples. I want to know how you measure it.
That's easy. Just look at the blatant disregard for the envrionment that anyone who drives an H2 has. Those trucks should not even be legal to produce. Dumping harmful chemicals into into drinking water or the ocean. This isn't something you have to quantify. It just shouldn't be done for obvious reasons. This is not an emotional response, it is a scientific one.
Yeah even slightly right positions are bashed and assaulted. God forbid someone has a different point of view than the leftist hypocrits. God forbid someone cares about morals and values and the rest of humanity when slashdot is full of the soley self-interested leftists.
You're not helping your case any. No one is going to listen to you if all you can do name-call.
Yeah, you can try to flame and deny it all you want but those words ring true and expose leftists for what they ARE. Trying to deny it just proves self-interest.
How about the American Revolutionary War? Do you really think American settlers could have done it without French support and aid? Does the statue of Liberty mean anything to you? Get a clue, you wouldn't even have a country if it weren't for France.
Consistency of the UI is not one you can put in the win column for linux. Consider configuring samba. Do you use swat, webmin, redhat-config-samba, vim and a text file, etc. Consider your basic editors like emacs and vim, these interfaces have nil in common. I use vim almost daily and still don't remember the exact syntax for a search and replace. Why? Because it's not a consistent interface. For comparison, in just about all windows programs that have this feature, it is ctrl-h and you can find it under the edit menu.
Read what I said again. I didn't say all of OSS was consistent with each other. I said Gnome and KDE are consistent with each other (just open up a command prompt in XP to understand what I am saying). They both include more than a standard Windows desktop and integrate better too. If you roll 3rd party programs into the mix then they are equally as bad. At least most Linux programs use either QT, GTK, or Motif most of the time. There are tons of Windows apps with their own interface that isn't consistent with ANYTHING else.
Linux program names are truly awful. I have always been apalled by the use of prefixes in KDE and Gnome programs which makes visually scanning through lists of programs and command line completion all that much harder.
Is typing one more letter (g or k) at the beginning of a command really that much harder to do? I really don't see the issue with this. I've rarely had a problem figuring out a command name.
Huh? How exactly does this chain of reasoning go? I mean, without crossing into the realm of very special purpose software, most of the tools I use on Linux are also available in virtually identical forms on Windows (Mozilla, Gimp, Open Office, vim, Apache, Perl, Php, etc).
You're obviously not a developer.
I mean, for basic needs configuring something like IPChains is hell compared to say the built in XP firewall.
Actually it is just as easy to configure a firewall within Redhat as it is with XP.
Yeah but if the expert has done the exact same things the exact same way for 'y' years, how experienced is he really?
Not much more than the guy who has done all of those things exactly once.
...and this statement...
In addition, Windows has changed significantly since 3.11, so how much of that experience would be valid today?
...contradict each other. Things have changed and I've kept up with those changes. If I had only configured my own personal Windows machine over and over again I would see your point about only doing things one time but that is not the case. I'm not talking about changing the background and setting the screensaver. I've been setting up Windows machines in various configurations for various small jobs like web serving, print serving, and internet connection sharing. I've been using DOS since my Tandy 286. I'm no rocket scientist but I know how to use a computer.
To be honest I'm just sick of people claiming I don't know how to use Windows because of the troubles I have encountered, while at the same time claiming Linux is too hard to learn. Somehow I'm too dumb to use Windows and yet use something that is supposedly more difficult. How does that make sense?
Personally I think the people who have the least amount of problems with Windows are intermediate users. They know enough to keep their systems free of spyware and viruses but don't need their systems to do anything unusual. They also tend to have OEM PC's which work much better out of the box than a homebrew computer. You could spend hours getting a homebrew computer to work correctly under Windows. It's always been much easier (for me) to do under Linux. At least all the Linux distro's I have tried supported SATA out of the box. Windows didn't.
This is true, it's easy to install Nvidia drivers and play SOME games. A lot of them are supported now and some have native versions but there isn't much alternative to a game like there is other software. I don't need to use gnucleus when I have gtk-gnutella, I don't need mediaplayer when I have mplayer, but if I did want to play an unsupported game on Linux an alternative will just not do. This is not to say Linux is unusable as a gaming platform though. I know plenty of people who use Linux just for that.
No I don't think so. You are the one who doesn't know what a unified interface is. I'm not even talking about apps made for windows, I'm talking about app made by Microsoft. Take a look at media player and office. Gnome and KDE apps fit together much nicer than Winodws apps and there are many more of them than apps made by Microsoft. Third party apps like MusicMatch and other programs commonly found on OEM PC's look nothing like the so-called windows unified interface.
The simple truth is that it's only because Microsoft is so successful at what they do. So successful that they fall into the (rather arbitrary) legal category of being a monopoly. That's the only reason Linux distributors aren't "getting in trouble."
WRONG. The reason is that the distributors don't make those programs. They only distribute them. Microsoft would get in no trouble at all if they bundled realplayer, quicktime, firefox, thunderbird, etc.
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Your argument falls apart just like everyone else's in this thread because COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT IS NOT THEFT. No one is "taking" their neighbor's copy of XP. They are merely copying it. The biggest issue we face in this discussion is making the realization that the work "steal" is being used improperly.
You prove nothing. It is NOT stealing. Please explain to me how it is. You cannot call my argument BS when you have no evidence to support your argument. Downloading off the internet has NEVER been stealing under the laws of the US.
I never said that it wasn't illegal. It is not stealing though. Besides, laws do not make right and wrong.
Yes there is. It's called LinuxCAD
Exactly. Did you actually read the part where I said that this supposed newfound "immorality" is NOT affecting the auto industry? People are not jacking BMW's at left and right because that is theft, downloading music, software, and movies IS NOT THEFT. It's something called COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT. It's a civil matter and people are sued in court but are not jailed. It is completely different than stealing.
You can argue that piracy isn't stealing till your blue in the face, one, it doesn't change the fact its illegal, two, you took something you have no right to , and three, the meaning of words change, language is not a static entity, so if the general population uses the word steal in the context of downloading music, movies or software, guess what it comes to mean. If you don't believe me, look up the word Gay some time.
There is also a point in being exact with your words. When you claim people are breaking some law, when they really are not, it makes a big difference what you say. The dynamic aspect of language does not change how laws work, nor should it.
Admittedly I don't use either Octave or Maxima but from everything I have read from users, Octave is largenly compatible with Matlab, and not difficult to transition to at all. Maxima has been around in some from since the 60's and is probably responsible for the development of software like Mathematica. Have you actually used the software or are you just making a general "OSS programs suck compared to commercial ones" statement?
You're being a little overdramatic. Morality has not gone by the wayside because joe user downloads mp3's off the internet.
Microsoft wants four hundred dollars for Office. Four Hundred! It costs twenty dollars for a CD and ten bucks to get into a movie, nevermind the ten more dollars you spend on soda and a popcorn. There is a reason people infringe copyright (which is not stealing, you do not deprive another person of anything). The prices are too high and most of what is available is crap. This surge in "stealing" hasn't affected the auto industry or any other industry for that matter, because it's not stealing and it's not a fall into depravity. It's just the realization that we're all getting screwed.
When it comes to shareware, they just don't offer enough for the money. Who would pay fifteen dollars for a screensaver or an archive tool. It's rediculous. These things are a commodity. They have been for quite some time. People are also sick of being swindled by the software industry when learn that they have to pay a big chunck of change just to get their computer to do what they bought it for.
To italicize just put a (without quotes) "<i>" before the text you wish to italicize and a "</i>" after the text you wish to italicize. After posting several replies you will just get used to it. In fact I find myself doing it in other places where it does not work and I end up with "<i>" everywhere.
I guess this is just where we differ. The world economy is not the first thing that comes to my mind when discussing outsourcing. You may think it is a defect in my thinking but I think the opposite is a defect in thinking. It is personal opinion I guess.
I'm not being callous when I say that there WILL be people put out by it, but it moves rote low-skilled jobs overseas so that the American economy can move into the next phase of growth, whether it's in space, energy, biotech, or whatnot. It keeps us ahead.
The problem I see with this kind of thinking is that there always going to be people that are left behind. Not everyone in the US has the education to get a biotech job. While the economy keeps moving along, what happens to the guy who worked in a manufacturing plant and doesn't have the skills, money, or possibely even the intelligence to do something high tech when he loses his job? I guess he's just not a part of the American dream. The other big issue I have with outsourcing so much is that we are cutting ourselves off from raw materials and production. Our country could easily be cut off at the knees by foreign interests if there was ever a reason for them to do it.
I see no problem in faulting people for their poor decisions. The H2 in itself is a piece of junk AND it is overpriced. That is the only reason for its popularity, the price. So, considering it is not an ideal vehicle in ANY sitution, for ANY purpose, it is a waste of money, a waste of resources, and a detriment to the environment. It's easy to judge someone when their poor decisions affect others adversely.
You're basing your claim on YOUR suppositions about the resilience threshold of the environment, at the same time assuming some things about the usage of the H2s by their owners. It IS a huge, showy, expensive auto -- and plenty of people who own things like that own 3 or more cars, and take the showy one out (be it a BMW, a Thunderbird reissue, a vintage, or whatnot) very rarely, or even as much as once or a couple times a week. And guess what they're not doing when they do that? Driving the family from NY to FL on vacation. There are others who do use it as their primary vehicle, but that doesn't at all justify your blanket accusations.
My accusations are justified. They have no positives as a vehicle, only negatives. You are getting so defensive I am starting to believe you are an H2 owner.
Oh yeah, and thanks for bringing up their uselessness and status symbolism -- it exhibits that they ARE iconic (as an extreme example) of stuff you dislike. You hate H2s, but you love Chevy Suburbans and H1s, right? Excursions? Nope, if you're intellectually honest, you dislike those as gas guzzlers, too. But the H2 is iconic because it's the most overt (that's the one you brought up, right?), and you let that emotion take you to automatic and unjustified conclusions about their owners.
You are making assumptions. I do not like gas guzzling trucks in general but some of them DO serve a purpose. I still dislike any full size truck without a diesel engine though because it makes no sense any way you look at it.
Look, the true point is that I shouldn't have to justify any of this: if you can't see the rash illogic of what you said, you shouldn't be a mathematician, a programmer, a scientist, or any other occupation that relies on reasoning abilities. And if you recognize it, admit it.
Quite the opposite. You are the one being rash and illogical. You are showing more emotion in this discussion than I. I am looking at this from a strictly utilitarian point of view.
Yeah, H2s are more polluting than most other vehicles (if not all other consumer vehicles). What do you drive? Man, if you don't drive a hybrid or something better, I bet the Prius people really look down on YOU. And the cyclists and Segway folks look down on THEM.
You are forcing an opinion on me that is not my own. I am not advocating that everyone trade in their cars for bicycles. Cars do serve a purpose, especially in the US. I would like them to get more efficient and an H2 is a step in the wrong direction. I don't hate all SUVs or sports cars or anything like that. The H2 is beyond disgustingly inefficient.
Everyone's got their own view of what's acceptable and what the environment can tolerate, and as long as you intentionally stay beneath what YOU TRULY BELIEVE for that reason, it's true that you care about the environment. You can do better, sure, but you can't make up for everyone else who's over their limit -- there's no end to that. I'm sure plenty of H2 owners care about the environment, but think their use of the H2 is within the per capita environmental tolerance. You can call that foolish, if you want, or wrong
That was a very good explanation of your point...err..not. Exactly how is it better for the worker that just got laid off?
The workers freely choose to work there. No one's saying it's paradise, but it's a step up, or they wouldn't have accepted the jobs.
The people don't have much choice when they don't have a job to begin with. It's either, work in horrible conditions for little pay, or don't work at all. There's not really a decision to be made.
No one wants to work in unsafe conditions, and such is NOT part and parcel with cheap outsourcing. If you don't like unsafe conditions, campaign against THAT -- not cheap labor in general. Separate the issues and be logical.
The problem isn't so much unsafe work conditions in the US, but they do exist. The problem is conditions in other countries. By not demanding the same conditions for companies that choose to outsource, there is not much anyone can do. That's probably the only thing that can be changed and that is exactly what I am talking about (forcing companies to maintain the same safety standards). I don't think I have the political clout to change laws in other countries, especially non-democractic ones.
Publix (or Safeway, or Wal-Mart, or whatever pleases you) doesn't sell you your bread out of benevolence -- it's all to make a buck. Does the lack of an altrustic motive rob the bread of its value? No -- just the opposite, since through competition prices are lowered and the value of your money (and therefore your labor) is increased, since you can now buy more bread with it.
Thankfully I care more about quality than price. I'll spend the extra dough on something nice, or something homemade, or something made in the USA. I have nothing against other countries, in fact I'm not so keen on the US governement at the moment, but this is still my country and it is losing its ability to sustain itself at a rapid pace. The national debt is ballooning again as it was during the Reagan years and even our bitch, the IMF doesn't have such nice things to say about us. I'll try support US made products and US workers when I can. Money makes this country go 'round.
Take an economics course, and actually think about it, instead of reacting emotionally to your apparent desire for us all to hold hands under a rainbow and share together, and do things only out of benevolence for our comrades. Not that I disagree with that metaphorical goal in the end, but free-market, low-regulation capitalism's the superior, if not the only, way to maximize the efficient allocation of goods to everyone who needs them.
Thanks but I've already taken many econ classes. That doesn't make a lick of difference though. My arguments stem from things I learned outside those econ classes. Money isn't everything.
Maybe you shouldn't jump to conclusions. I don't dislike H2's for their sheer size or any iconic value at all. I despise those gas guzzling monsters because they are USELESS. Driving around in town in a H2 is definitely wasting more gas than a Civic driving three times as far. An H2 is getting less than 10 mpg, probably around 5 in town. A Civic will probably get around 30 on the highway. Besides that you can get a truck with a Diesel that is not only better for towing but better on gas too. An H2 is nothing more than a status symbol and a gross waste of resources.
Who said anything about brown skin? If you are implying that I am a racist then I resent that remark. Besides, eastern europe is full of cheap labor, and those countries are mostly white, not that it matters at all.
Helping to raise the standard of living and stability of poorer nations is evil?
Reducing the prices that people have to pay for goods and services is evil?
Yes. It's evil to exploit the work of a poor country, with no living wage, no health standards, and no regulations, for a buck. I'm sure the price of products these days wouldn't be so high if the average wage of CEOs wasn't rising at 4 times the rate of the average worker.
Nah. It doesn't happen that often at all anymore.
I'm cool cuz i can be a dumbass prick and take apart someone's thread making it look like he's wrong!
Hmmm. Nope. I don't think so. I merely pointed out inaccuracies.
YOU DUMBASS PIECE OF SHIT!
You are clever!
WINDOWS IS PERFECTLY FINE FOR THE VAST MAJORITY OF USERS!
Your point? I never said it wasn't.
WINDOWS XP IS DAMN STABLE ... IVE BEEN RUNNING FOR YEARS DOING FAR MORE THAN THE AVERAVE LINUX USER DOES WITHOUT A CRASH. ... mainly because the average Linux user gets nothing useful done due to having to build and recompile everything every other day, WHILE IM USING THE DAMN SOFTWARE AND ACCOMPLISHING THINGS.
It's actually not difficult at all to compile something and do something else at the same time. It's not rocket science. You don't have to recompile anything either if you don't want to.
YOU JUST CANT STAND THE THOUGHT THAT SOMEONE CAN OPERATE WELL, FAST, AND PROFITABLY USING WINDOWS!
When did I say that? More power to you if you can, just don't pretend problems don't exist on that platform, like they do on others.
WELL NYAH NYAH NYAH NYAH ASSHOLE! YOU ARE THE LONELY GEEK WHO CAN'T SEE THE LIGHT.
More lively debate.
What world are you from!?! have you even tried to use windows? Most programs DO INDEED share similar user interfaces that are intuitive and functional ... not like all the crap that just doesnt work or does nothing like what it says on my linux computer.
What world are you from!?! have you even tried to use KDE? Most programs DO INDEED share similar user interfaces that are intuitive and functional ... not like all the crap that just doesnt work or does nothing like what it says on my windows computer.
Linux is not more secure, it just hasn't been attacked.
You must have accidentally deleted the part where you supplied evidence to back that claim up.
If Windows crashed twice a day for you, then you must be one of those pricks who goes through deleting every other file on the C drive trying to save space, thinking none of it is needed.
This just gets funnier and funnier. I'm going to reference this post, and this entire thread in fact, when some bozo tries to exlcaim that Linux users are always trying to pick fights while Windows users don't EVER do that and don't care enough to in the first place. Most replies have been quite defensive (and offensive) considering I did nothing more than cite inaccuracies in the parent post.
10 minutes! damn you Ive spent weeeeeeks trying just to successfully compile some of those free linux programs with their none-existant manuals, and errors everywhere where there are any instructions.
Linux has binaries too ya know. Besides that, you can actually compile an entire (relatively new) system from scratch in less than a day if you felt like it. Maybe if you have trouble compiling something you should ask questions instead of freaking out on /.
WHOooWOOOooo you are fine with solitaire! yippee fucking dooo! some of us actually try to USE OUR COMPUTERS TO THEIR FULLEST! I bet mahjong is that one program you managed to install with the packet manager in a mere 10 minutes. try doing useful work quickly and you'll see the difference!
Did you read my post? I said those were the only two games I really played on my computer, not that that's all I ever used my PC for. In fact I rarely even play those games. I'm too busy coding. Read before you criticize.
go back to your mahjong and solitaire while we get real work done.
Doom isn't "real work". ;-)
My point is that you can have a complete KDE or Gnome Desktop and be more consistent and more complete than Windows. You're just not getting it. 3rd party apps are not consistent at all, on Winodws or Linux. Gnome/KDE are more consistent because they offer more applications than Windows, and each of those applications is consistent with others within the DE.
This is just an outright lie. You can find Windows freeware in seconds. There is plenty out there, and it doesn't take "hours searching the web." Ever heard of Google? You're just making shit up to bolster your argument.
You can find Windows freeware in seconds but you can't always find what you want. There are hundreds of programs that do the same thing, scattered all over the web. It's much easier to find what you are looking for in a central location. You forget that it's not always easy to track down what you are looking for when you're not sure such an application even exists to suit your needs.
Again--Google. They call it a "search engine," don't ask me why.
Thanks but I've been using it for several years now. That still doesn't make everything exactly simple to find. I would see your point if the only programs I needed were Winamp and Winzip, but there are a lot of useful but obscure programs that are not a simple google search away.
Wow, can't argue with that kind of subject, anecdotal evidence. "The only difference is that Free Software is generally much better than Freeware." Care to cite examples? Evidence of any kind? Proof?
Show me one Freeware kernel, compiler, and/or utilities that come close to GNU/Linux. How about a freeware DE?
Besides, you just contradicted your earlier claim that it takes you "hours of searching on the web" for Windows programs. Now all the sudden you can just visit Tucows? Sweet.
Once again, not everything is located there. There are many more useful apps not listed on tucows than is listed.
It's a serious gripe. Keeping track of endless arcane project names is more difficult than remembering Winzip, Microsoft Word, or WinDVD. On Linux, it's "tar -jxpvf something.tar.gz" or something called "xine" that doesn't even have an Open button--it has a "://" button that calls itself an "MRL Browser." At least there's KOffice, even if the K-prefix naming scheme is completely amateur and unprofessional.
Yeah, the paperclip and the dog are REAL professional. Good point. The real reason this is a problem for Windows users is that they are used to Windows dynamically adding menu entries which is a pain in the ass for people like me.
Then stick with solitaire and mahjong forever. If Linux desktops had a proper binary installation/uninstallation API that created uninstaller instructions, menu entries, and so on, you'd have commercial vendors writing more applications. But for that to happen, APIs would have to settle down. Can you run a Red Hat binary from six years ago on a Red Hat system today? No. But you can run a Windows 3.1 app on XP today (you can even run some Windows 1.0 apps).
Ask me if I care.
No, you wouldn't. Have you used an OEM Windows machine? They come with Office, DVD players and rippers, music players, e-mail, games, and more.
Yeah and they all suck. Sonic, WinDVD, MusicMatch, MS Works...c'mon, get real. There are tons of better OSS and commercial programs.
Except that it takes way more than ten minutes to learn most Linux applications. Most of them are hacked together in QT over a weekend by some non-intuitive programmer who thinks GUIs are evil compared to the command-line. If you want to keep with that, have at it, and the rest of the world wil
How can you "be specific" and not give examples? Apparently you want to make it impossible to answer your question. I'll do it anyway but I can't see a way around breaking your rules.
Outsourcing, it's easy to measure, just count the jobs that have gone overseas that could have easily been done here. Low minimum wage, below the poverty level is unacceptable. Unsafe work conditions, exposure to harmful materials and dangerous equipment should be closely regulated. This means that if you are working with something than can kill you, you should be properly protected and notified of the possible harm.
What qualifies and quantifies "ruining the environment"? Be specific. Don't give examples. I want to know how you measure it.
That's easy. Just look at the blatant disregard for the envrionment that anyone who drives an H2 has. Those trucks should not even be legal to produce. Dumping harmful chemicals into into drinking water or the ocean. This isn't something you have to quantify. It just shouldn't be done for obvious reasons. This is not an emotional response, it is a scientific one.
You're not helping your case any. No one is going to listen to you if all you can do name-call.
Yeah, you can try to flame and deny it all you want but those words ring true and expose leftists for what they ARE. Trying to deny it just proves self-interest.
What? Your babbling exposes nothing.
How about the American Revolutionary War? Do you really think American settlers could have done it without French support and aid? Does the statue of Liberty mean anything to you? Get a clue, you wouldn't even have a country if it weren't for France.
Read what I said again. I didn't say all of OSS was consistent with each other. I said Gnome and KDE are consistent with each other (just open up a command prompt in XP to understand what I am saying). They both include more than a standard Windows desktop and integrate better too. If you roll 3rd party programs into the mix then they are equally as bad. At least most Linux programs use either QT, GTK, or Motif most of the time. There are tons of Windows apps with their own interface that isn't consistent with ANYTHING else.
Linux program names are truly awful. I have always been apalled by the use of prefixes in KDE and Gnome programs which makes visually scanning through lists of programs and command line completion all that much harder.
Is typing one more letter (g or k) at the beginning of a command really that much harder to do? I really don't see the issue with this. I've rarely had a problem figuring out a command name.
Huh? How exactly does this chain of reasoning go? I mean, without crossing into the realm of very special purpose software, most of the tools I use on Linux are also available in virtually identical forms on Windows (Mozilla, Gimp, Open Office, vim, Apache, Perl, Php, etc).
You're obviously not a developer.
I mean, for basic needs configuring something like IPChains is hell compared to say the built in XP firewall.
Actually it is just as easy to configure a firewall within Redhat as it is with XP.
Yeah but if the expert has done the exact same things the exact same way for 'y' years, how experienced is he really? Not much more than the guy who has done all of those things exactly once.
In addition, Windows has changed significantly since 3.11, so how much of that experience would be valid today?
To be honest I'm just sick of people claiming I don't know how to use Windows because of the troubles I have encountered, while at the same time claiming Linux is too hard to learn. Somehow I'm too dumb to use Windows and yet use something that is supposedly more difficult. How does that make sense?
Personally I think the people who have the least amount of problems with Windows are intermediate users. They know enough to keep their systems free of spyware and viruses but don't need their systems to do anything unusual. They also tend to have OEM PC's which work much better out of the box than a homebrew computer. You could spend hours getting a homebrew computer to work correctly under Windows. It's always been much easier (for me) to do under Linux. At least all the Linux distro's I have tried supported SATA out of the box. Windows didn't.
This is true, it's easy to install Nvidia drivers and play SOME games. A lot of them are supported now and some have native versions but there isn't much alternative to a game like there is other software. I don't need to use gnucleus when I have gtk-gnutella, I don't need mediaplayer when I have mplayer, but if I did want to play an unsupported game on Linux an alternative will just not do. This is not to say Linux is unusable as a gaming platform though. I know plenty of people who use Linux just for that.
You have obviously never used KDE or Gnome or you wouldn't argue this point.
No I don't think so. You are the one who doesn't know what a unified interface is. I'm not even talking about apps made for windows, I'm talking about app made by Microsoft. Take a look at media player and office. Gnome and KDE apps fit together much nicer than Winodws apps and there are many more of them than apps made by Microsoft. Third party apps like MusicMatch and other programs commonly found on OEM PC's look nothing like the so-called windows unified interface.
WRONG. The reason is that the distributors don't make those programs. They only distribute them. Microsoft would get in no trouble at all if they bundled realplayer, quicktime, firefox, thunderbird, etc.