But the citizens of Afgahnistan fought for their freedom with everything they had and at the very least made things hard for the oppressive government.
I think we would all RATHER live in a world where guns were unneccesary (sp) but some of us realize that that isn't going to happen any time soon and are prepared to deal with it. While others want to pretend that it has already happened and try to ignore the problem.
Since we are in agreement on the problem it is only the solution that we have to figure out. To me the solution is education and a healthy respect for human life being instilled into our children some how. It would seem that the baby boomers have failed to give their children any respect for their fellows whatsoever. So how do we solve this? Massive reprogramming of the populace? Drugs in the water? Government mandated values? It just seems like there isn't a whole lot we can do to reverse this trend in the population today beyond controlling our own impulses.
I apologize for my misconception of canadian government. I was not meaning socialistic as an insult, I was under the impression that there was a large amount of government control in your economy.
When I refered to the US as the 'Policeman' of the world notice the qoutes, I was being sarcastic as I don't approve of the capacity that we play in interfering with the governments of smaller countries.
Canada seems to be a very overlooked country in terms of the amount of activity they are responsible for around the world. I really didn't think the canadians did much in the way of UN activity.
Thank you for enlightening me as to the greater impact of canada on the world. Hopefully I'll stop thinking about canada as 'those hockey playing people' now.>:)
While making stuff up is always interesting and demonstrates a good creative spirit in the interest of this discussion why don't you stick to a reasonable definition of militia or "malitia". The defintion is not created by a bunch of assholes in Montana or where ever tagging militia onto their name and then refusing to pay taxes, claiming that an organized non-governmental, excessively violence oriented is guarenteed by the constitution. Not to say that it's not in the constitution I just don't think that definition of militia is all that valid. gid-foo
Excuse my misspelling of the word Militia, I was talking on the phone at the time and not looking at what I was typing very closely. However my definition is valid and true to what the authors intended. If you look up the definition of Militia or check the legal definition you will see that I am very close to exactly correct. Try checking your information before attempting to flame.
Ok, you want the logical and cold hard reasoning about why we should be allowed guns? It's this: guns were invented.
You may look at that and think 'Damn that's a stupid argument' but you would be wrong. SOMEONE at some time had to take the concept and develop it and create a firearm. At that moment in history there was no human on earth that he could not kill. IF we take away all of the guns, destroy them, have 0 guns in the population. Some enterprising criminal will come up with a simple gun which he will use to rob someone or kill someone. Since the weapon proved so effective he will develop it further.
We need LAW ABIDING citizens to have guns because CRIMINALS will have guns. Even if all of the currently produced and available guns are removed from our society someone will re-invent them for the purposes of crime because PEOPLE ARE NOT NICE. You can make some attempt to argue against this, but it is true and I'll stand by it.
You may say, 'No guns saves more lives than having guns!' but you have no way to prove that, no way to know it is true because there is no evidence of that. At many intervals in the past guns have been prevalent in society with no resulting increase in murder. The problem in our society is not a problem with guns, it's a problem with out mentality.
I don't. I say that it is a bad thing to force guns on people and then _EXPECT_ that they will know how to use them, and responsibly.
No one has suggested forcing guns onto ANYONE. I suggest that the people who are getting guns be required to know how to use them. That greatly reduces the chances that someone will miss their target and hit someone else unintentionally.
Given. My scenario is called "idealism". Yours is called "infeasibility". Are you going to tell me that for SURE, everybody on earth has the skill and prowess to handle guns? What about the disabled? However I/CAN/ FOR SURE say that everybody on earth has the capability for NOT hurting each other. Whether we will ever get to a point where that is a reality is questionable, but not infeasible
I don't care whether everyone on earth has the ability to properly fire a gun, but as long as the criminal elements believe that I have a gun and know how to use it I will feel a lot better.
Also, while we have the capability for not hurting each other we constantly do so without the influence of guns. Watch any kindergarten playground, you'll see kids kicking each other, hitting, biting, and generally hurting each other for no good reason. IT's human nature, live with it or change it... if you wanna change it then good luck. I prefer to pay more attention to my own personalitys development than worry about everyone elses. I can not affect what you do, but I can affect my reaction to it.
Don't compare yourself to the UK for that one then. Try Canada. We've got tonnes of coastline (more than the US), and less people and resources available to patrol them. Yet we are *not* awash in guns (we confiscate a hell a lot of them at the border though - and the cool thing is we *don't* give them back). In fact, I've lived all my life in major urban centres Toronto, Montreal, (briefly Halifax). I've never seen a live gun - ever. Except holstered at the side of the occasional police type person. I've always lived downtown (since becoming an adult) and walked the streets at any time of the day or night feeling reasonably secure. I've never heard a gunshot - except in a ceremonial salute or something like that. Our murder rate and armed crime rates per capita are miniscule compared to the major American centres. We have a very non-homogeneous population. The only real difference is the cultural environment people live in every day.
You have far less people, far less crowding and an entirely different culture. You didn't fight a war against an oppresive government for your independance. Your citizens are happy with a powerful, centralized and socialistic government. And I can walk through the downtown of most US cities and not hear a gun shot and be perfectly safe, but that doesn't mean I shouldn't have the right to carry a loaded weapon in my back pocket.
There IS a major cultural difference and that is why America is a 'military superpower' that is a cting as the worlds 'policeman' we are all power hungry egomaniacs, down to the last one of us. Our culture is based on a 200 year old superiority complex that sparked us to revolution because the people makeing the rules about our country were idiots.
I apologize for any misconception that I was referring to eastern Tai Chi. I was referring to the meditation technique taught in the US under the name Tai Chi. I have no experience with true eastern Tai Chi to judge its merits as a martial art.
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
A Well regulated malitia is a military body that is not controlled by the government. If this consists of a group of citizens who are competent in their gun usage and practice regularly then that is as it should be. A Well regulated malitia is not a government body nor should it be as the purpose of a malitia is to protect the people from the government.
And those without the skill, prowess, time, or care to operate handguns will become the artificially selected lemmings? How about nobody has guns and nobody blows anybody's guts out. I like that scenario better.
You might as well say 'those without the skill, prowess, time or care to go to college are the artificially selected poor' it would be equally incorrect.
Also, your scenario is impossible, mine is not. Why do you say it is a bad thing for people who own guns to know how to use them? It sounds like you have some kind of irrational fear of firearms due to lack of experience. The handgun is not the point and click instrument of death that some people would have you believe. Go try and fire a.45 accurately some time... you'll see how easy it is to hit a man sized target at 30-40 feet without some kind of training or practice.
There are 200+ million guns in the US, with more than 50% of the population owning guns.
15 % of the US population spends time in a mental institute at some point.
It is ALREADY ILLEGAL for people who have spent time in a mental institute to own guns. WE HAVE LAWS IN PLACE THAT DEAL WITH THIS ALREADY DAMNIT!
There is NO REASON to take guns away from the people who obey the laws. We already restrict gun usage for criminals and insane people. It is extremely difficult to enforce these laws already. Making more laws is futile until we can enforce the ones we have in place.
If one wants to make comparisons between the UK and US, you have to take into account the population density of the UK, which is much greater. Given the number of people we pack onto this island, the crime rates are incredibly low -- if you put rats at the same density, they'd be tearing each others' throats out.
This is an ignorant statement. Our large cities are more densly populated than your country, that is where the crime happens. In the less densly populated areas of the country there is very little crime. But when you put 5-10 million people in a place the size of Atlanta or Chicago you get crime.
You almost sound like you would enjoy that... Proof that you were right... Yes, they could have built bombs. Someone present as they detonate them could have shot them. Wow. Both the bomber and shooter are still dead. However, it's a lot harder to conceal a powerful bomb than it is a gun.
If someone feels so strongly that these people are determined to kill, then there's quite the underlying social problem in the US.
A fun analogy:
You are carrying a lot of cash.. Say, at least 4 digit's worth. You have a gun, it's in a shoulder holster. Some guy jumps out of an alley, and attempts to mug you. He is armed with a gun. You are *not* going to be able to get your own out, and you are *not* going to try to run or fight him off. Bye-bye cash. Or...
You are not armed. You are mugged by a fellow with a knife. (Or, for fun.. A pipe bomb. Call the fellow's bluff). You are being mugged by a fellow with a knife. Dare you flee with your thousands of dollars? Or fight him off? I think I would rather be stabbed once or twice than shot once or twice in an attempt to get away. Wouldn't you?
A couple of things, first of all carrying a gun in a shoulder holster for the purpose of defending yourself is just stupid. The perfect self defense weapon is a.22 pistol kept in the back right hand pocket (Or your purse if you carry one). It is very hard to kill someone with one of these but it WILL stop a mugger. When they ask for your wallet you reach into your pocket, thumb off the safety, and shoot them on the way up. You empty the entire gun into them and then run like hell.
Criminals will still be able to get guns in this country because WE ARE NOT AN ISLAND THE SIZE OF A POSTAGE STAMP! We have Mexico to the south which tends to let anything through as long as the officials get a cut. It's not quite as easy to police a coastline that is about 40 times the size of the UKs.
The point isn't just outlawing guns, but making guns harder to get. Yes, there will always be someone that manage to get guns, but realisticly: Do you really believe that a hardened criminal with a gun will be more dangerous than thousands of citizens that can't handle it properly?
Ahhh, see, here you have finally said something sensible. We need to EDUCATE, more information is always good. Require that people take a gun safetey course and spend X hours at the shooting range per month in order to qualify for gun ownership. Then the people with guns will know how to use them without blowing their own guts out.
The number of deaths in vehicle related accidents dwarfs the number of deaths from gun shots. So what? Look, we americans aren't all as psycho as everyone seems to think. Stop watching the damned news. I grew up with guns, around guns, my little community had around 1000 people in it, all of whom owned at least 3 guns. I have NEVER EVER EVER seen someone get shot. A friend of mine grew up in a suburb near a city, he saw some nut with a shotgun blow a guys leg off. The total number of guns per person in his area? Less than.01. In fact, the guy with the shotgun was probably the only one in the neighborhood with a weapon at that time.
You'd think that with so many guns in my area I'd have at least HEARD of some one getting shot... but nope. It just doesn't happen.
Reference your geography. It is far less difficult to obtain a weapon of any kind in this country than in yours because YOU ARE ON AN ISLAND THE SIZE OF ONE OF OUR STATES!
Also, a good percentage of violent incidents are performed with weapons that are illegal to own in the first place. Believe me, we have plenty of laws in effect already, but how many criminals pay atention to laws?
As a member of the pro-gun segment of the American population I believe you are completely misunderstanding the role which guns do play in our society and should continue to play.
The founders of our country believed that each man was created equal and should be given the means to protect that equality. We have expanded the definition of 'Man' to include everyone instead of just white land owning males. Guns provide a means for our population to protect its freedom from malcontents and an abusive government.
If all of the guns were taken from the law abiding citizens then they would be easy pray for the criminal element which is easily able to obtain firearms. After all, we aren't isolated on a tiny little island like some people.
There ARE bandits waiting to ambush you on the street, there are organizations which ARE trying to take away our freedoms. Eventually we will have to pick up those long neglected guns and defend ourselves against a government attempting to enslave us. If you believe otherwise you are either hopelessly naive or optimistic beyond belief.
This is just a general response to all of the responses to my post:
I have always thought of 'Nigger' as a type of person. Not a race of people. You can have someone who is a 'Nigger' without that person being black. I guess I've always (Blame it on my southern breeding) taken 'nigger' to mean a useless, ignorant, lazy, belligerent person. Maybe that's just me...
Personally this is perfect for me, it gives me the chance to screw with linux without losing my current Q2 playing ability through lack of knowledge about how to set everything back up. So that when I get my dedicated linux box I will have a better idea of how to set things up on it. I plan on continuing to use Win9x/2000 for my game playing experience until I have mastere linux enough to get all of my stuff up and running in 1 afternoon. This thing may not be all that great as an actual OS, but as a learning tool it's perfect for those of us who can't afford second machines right now.
Slashdot Mirror
But the citizens of Afgahnistan fought for their freedom with everything they had and at the very least made things hard for the oppressive government.
Kintanon
2 families != society.
Paksitan != US
Your example is flawed.
I think we would all RATHER live in a world where guns were unneccesary (sp) but some of us realize that that isn't going to happen any time soon and are prepared to deal with it. While others want to pretend that it has already happened and try to ignore the problem.
Kintanon
Since we are in agreement on the problem it is only the solution that we have to figure out.
To me the solution is education and a healthy respect for human life being instilled into our children some how. It would seem that the baby boomers have failed to give their children any respect for their fellows whatsoever. So how do we solve this? Massive reprogramming of the populace? Drugs in the water? Government mandated values? It just seems like there isn't a whole lot we can do to reverse this trend in the population today beyond controlling our own impulses.
Kintanon
I apologize for my misconception of canadian government. I was not meaning socialistic as an insult, I was under the impression that there was a large amount of government control in your economy.
When I refered to the US as the 'Policeman' of the world notice the qoutes, I was being sarcastic as I don't approve of the capacity that we play in interfering with the governments of smaller countries.
Canada seems to be a very overlooked country in terms of the amount of activity they are responsible for around the world. I really didn't think the canadians did much in the way of UN activity.
Thank you for enlightening me as to the greater impact of canada on the world. Hopefully I'll stop thinking about canada as 'those hockey playing people' now.>:)
Kintanon
While making stuff up is always interesting and demonstrates a good creative spirit in the interest of this discussion why don't you stick to a reasonable definition of militia or "malitia". The defintion is not created by a bunch of assholes in Montana or where ever tagging militia onto their name and then refusing to pay taxes, claiming that an organized non-governmental, excessively violence oriented is guarenteed by the constitution. Not to say that it's not in the constitution I just don't think that definition of militia is all that valid. gid-foo
Excuse my misspelling of the word Militia, I was talking on the phone at the time and not looking at what I was typing very closely. However my definition is valid and true to what the authors intended. If you look up the definition of Militia or check the legal definition you will see that I am very close to exactly correct. Try checking your information before attempting to flame.
Kintanon
Ok, you want the logical and cold hard reasoning about why we should be allowed guns? It's this: guns were invented.
You may look at that and think 'Damn that's a stupid argument' but you would be wrong. SOMEONE at some time had to take the concept and develop it and create a firearm. At that moment in history there was no human on earth that he could not kill. IF we take away all of the guns, destroy them, have 0 guns in the population. Some enterprising criminal will come up with a simple gun which he will use to rob someone or kill someone. Since the weapon proved so effective he will develop it further.
We need LAW ABIDING citizens to have guns because CRIMINALS will have guns. Even if all of the currently produced and available guns are removed from our society someone will re-invent them for the purposes of crime because PEOPLE ARE NOT NICE. You can make some attempt to argue against this, but it is true and I'll stand by it.
You may say, 'No guns saves more lives than having guns!' but you have no way to prove that, no way to know it is true because there is no evidence of that. At many intervals in the past guns have been prevalent in society with no resulting increase in murder. The problem in our society is not a problem with guns, it's a problem with out mentality.
Kintanon
I don't. I say that it is a bad thing to force guns on people and then _EXPECT_ that they will know how to use them, and responsibly.
/CAN/ FOR SURE say that everybody on earth has the capability for NOT hurting each other. Whether we will ever get to a point where that is a reality is questionable, but not infeasible
No one has suggested forcing guns onto ANYONE. I suggest that the people who are getting guns be required to know how to use them. That greatly reduces the chances that someone will miss their target and hit someone else unintentionally.
Given. My scenario is called "idealism". Yours is called "infeasibility". Are you going to tell me that for SURE, everybody on earth has the skill and prowess to handle guns? What about the disabled? However I
I don't care whether everyone on earth has the ability to properly fire a gun, but as long as the criminal elements believe that I have a gun and know how to use it I will feel a lot better.
Also, while we have the capability for not hurting each other we constantly do so without the influence of guns. Watch any kindergarten playground, you'll see kids kicking each other, hitting, biting, and generally hurting each other for no good reason. IT's human nature, live with it or change it... if you wanna change it then good luck. I prefer to pay more attention to my own personalitys development than worry about everyone elses. I can not affect what you do, but I can affect my reaction to it.
Kintanon
Don't compare yourself to the UK for that one then. Try Canada. We've got tonnes of coastline (more than the US), and less people and resources available to patrol them. Yet we are *not* awash in guns (we confiscate a hell a lot of them at the border though - and the cool thing is we *don't* give them back). In fact, I've lived all my life in major urban centres Toronto, Montreal, (briefly Halifax). I've never seen a live gun - ever. Except holstered at the side of the occasional police type person. I've always lived downtown (since becoming an adult) and walked the streets at any time of the day or night feeling reasonably secure. I've never heard a gunshot - except in a ceremonial salute or something like that. Our murder rate and armed crime rates per capita are miniscule compared to the major American centres. We have a very non-homogeneous population. The only real difference is the cultural environment people live in every day.
You have far less people, far less crowding and an entirely different culture. You didn't fight a war against an oppresive government for your independance. Your citizens are happy with a powerful, centralized and socialistic government. And I can walk through the downtown of most US cities and not hear a gun shot and be perfectly safe, but that doesn't mean I shouldn't have the right to carry a loaded weapon in my back pocket.
There IS a major cultural difference and that is why America is a 'military superpower' that is a cting as the worlds 'policeman' we are all power hungry egomaniacs, down to the last one of us. Our culture is based on a 200 year old superiority complex that sparked us to revolution because the people makeing the rules about our country were idiots.
Kintanon
If you're shooting at me it's suicide.
Kintanon
RTFA!!!! They were not 'Nazis' they hated EVERYONE.
Kintanon
I apologize for any misconception that I was referring to eastern Tai Chi. I was referring to the meditation technique taught in the US under the name Tai Chi. I have no experience with true eastern Tai Chi to judge its merits as a martial art.
Kintanon
When you blow your own brains out in the middle of a hallway you pretty much waive your right to a trial I think.
Kintanon
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
A Well regulated malitia is a military body that is not controlled by the government. If this consists of a group of citizens who are competent in their gun usage and practice regularly then that is as it should be. A Well regulated malitia is not a government body nor should it be as the purpose of a malitia is to protect the people from the government.
Kintanon
And those without the skill, prowess, time, or care to operate handguns will become the artificially selected lemmings? How about nobody has guns and nobody blows anybody's guts out. I like that scenario better.
.45 accurately some time... you'll see how easy it is to hit a man sized target at 30-40 feet without some kind of training or practice.
You might as well say 'those without the skill, prowess, time or care to go to college are the artificially selected poor' it would be equally incorrect.
Also, your scenario is impossible, mine is not.
Why do you say it is a bad thing for people who own guns to know how to use them? It sounds like you have some kind of irrational fear of firearms due to lack of experience. The handgun is not the point and click instrument of death that some people would have you believe. Go try and fire a
Kintanon
There are 200+ million guns in the US, with more than 50% of the population owning guns.
15 % of the US population spends time in a mental institute at some point.
It is ALREADY ILLEGAL for people who have spent time in a mental institute to own guns. WE HAVE LAWS IN PLACE THAT DEAL WITH THIS ALREADY DAMNIT!
There is NO REASON to take guns away from the people who obey the laws. We already restrict gun usage for criminals and insane people. It is extremely difficult to enforce these laws already. Making more laws is futile until we can enforce the ones we have in place.
Kintanon
If one wants to make comparisons between the UK and US, you have to take into account the population density of the UK, which is much greater. Given the number of people we pack onto this island, the crime rates are incredibly low -- if you put rats at the same density, they'd be tearing each others' throats out.
This is an ignorant statement. Our large cities are more densly populated than your country, that is where the crime happens. In the less densly populated areas of the country there is very little crime. But when you put 5-10 million people in a place the size of Atlanta or Chicago you get crime.
Kintanon
You almost sound like you would enjoy that... Proof that you were right... Yes, they could have built bombs. Someone present as they detonate them could have shot them. Wow. Both the bomber and shooter are still dead. However, it's a lot harder to conceal a powerful bomb than it is a gun.
.22 pistol kept in the back right hand pocket (Or your purse if you carry one). It is very hard to kill someone with one of these but it WILL stop a mugger. When they ask for your wallet you reach into your pocket, thumb off the safety, and shoot them on the way up. You empty the entire gun into them and then run like hell.
If someone feels so strongly that these people are determined to kill, then there's quite the underlying social problem in the US.
A fun analogy:
You are carrying a lot of cash.. Say, at least 4 digit's worth. You have a gun, it's in a shoulder holster. Some guy jumps out of an alley, and attempts to mug you. He is armed with a gun. You are *not* going to be able to get your own out, and you are *not* going to try to run or fight him off. Bye-bye cash. Or...
You are not armed. You are mugged by a fellow with a knife. (Or, for fun.. A pipe bomb. Call the fellow's bluff). You are being mugged by a fellow with a knife. Dare you flee with your thousands of dollars? Or fight him off? I think I would rather be stabbed once or twice than shot once or twice in an attempt to get away. Wouldn't you?
A couple of things, first of all carrying a gun in a shoulder holster for the purpose of defending yourself is just stupid. The perfect self defense weapon is a
Criminals will still be able to get guns in this country because WE ARE NOT AN ISLAND THE SIZE OF A POSTAGE STAMP! We have Mexico to the south which tends to let anything through as long as the officials get a cut. It's not quite as easy to police a coastline that is about 40 times the size of the UKs.
Kintanon
Tai chi is NOT a martial art, it's a meditation technique. Anyone trying to defend themselves with Tai chi will get the crap beat out of them.
Kintanon
The point isn't just outlawing guns, but making guns harder to get. Yes, there will always be someone that manage to get guns, but realisticly: Do you really believe that a hardened criminal with a gun will be more dangerous than thousands of citizens that can't handle it properly?
Ahhh, see, here you have finally said something sensible. We need to EDUCATE, more information is always good. Require that people take a gun safetey course and spend X hours at the shooting range per month in order to qualify for gun ownership. Then the people with guns will know how to use them without blowing their own guts out.
Kintanon
The number of deaths in vehicle related accidents dwarfs the number of deaths from gun shots. So what? Look, we americans aren't all as psycho as everyone seems to think. Stop watching the damned news. I grew up with guns, around guns, my little community had around 1000 people in it, all of whom owned at least 3 guns. I have NEVER EVER EVER seen someone get shot. A friend of mine grew up in a suburb near a city, he saw some nut with a shotgun blow a guys leg off. The total number of guns per person in his area? Less than .01. In fact, the guy with the shotgun was probably the only one in the neighborhood with a weapon at that time.
You'd think that with so many guns in my area I'd have at least HEARD of some one getting shot... but nope. It just doesn't happen.
Kintanon
Reference your geography. It is far less difficult to obtain a weapon of any kind in this country than in yours because YOU ARE ON AN ISLAND THE SIZE OF ONE OF OUR STATES!
Also, a good percentage of violent incidents are performed with weapons that are illegal to own in the first place. Believe me, we have plenty of laws in effect already, but how many criminals pay atention to laws?
Kintanon
As a member of the pro-gun segment of the American population I believe you are completely misunderstanding the role which guns do play in our society and should continue to play.
The founders of our country believed that each man was created equal and should be given the means to protect that equality. We have expanded the definition of 'Man' to include everyone instead of just white land owning males. Guns provide a means for our population to protect its freedom from malcontents and an abusive government.
If all of the guns were taken from the law abiding citizens then they would be easy pray for the criminal element which is easily able to obtain firearms. After all, we aren't isolated on a tiny little island like some people.
There ARE bandits waiting to ambush you on the street, there are organizations which ARE trying to take away our freedoms. Eventually we will have to pick up those long neglected guns and defend ourselves against a government attempting to enslave us. If you believe otherwise you are either hopelessly naive or optimistic beyond belief.
Kintanon
This is just a general response to all of the responses to my post:
I have always thought of 'Nigger' as a type of person. Not a race of people. You can have someone who is a 'Nigger' without that person being black. I guess I've always (Blame it on my southern breeding) taken 'nigger' to mean a useless, ignorant, lazy, belligerent person. Maybe that's just me...
Kintanon
Personally this is perfect for me, it gives me the chance to screw with linux without losing my current Q2 playing ability through lack of knowledge about how to set everything back up. So that when I get my dedicated linux box I will have a better idea of how to set things up on it.
I plan on continuing to use Win9x/2000 for my game playing experience until I have mastere linux enough to get all of my stuff up and running in 1 afternoon. This thing may not be all that great as an actual OS, but as a learning tool it's perfect for those of us who can't afford second machines right now.
Kintanon