50 light years is relatively close, cosmically speaking. It has taken 50 years from light from this diamond to reach us, thats pretty damn quick, the point of the GP is about intelligent life out there, they are likely hundreds of millions of light years away, if not more. The milky way galaxy alone (but a small drop in the bucket cosmically speaking) is 100,000 light years across, and distances only get astronomically greater from there, so yes light from this diamond is not from a "long time ago" but many things in the sky which we have observed are from a LONG LONG LONG time ago.
and while it is illegal to steal a physical copy of a dvd form a retail store (this would clearly be theft) copying the information ON the dvd is not theft as it does not deprive anyone of the orignal. This is the definition of copyright infringment. Theft is physical, copyright infringment involves using the IDEAS (or the resulting work comming from the idea) of others. The point here is that a stealing a car deprives someone else of that physical good they bought and paid for, copying data however does not deprive anyone of what they have, it results in loss of revenue for the creative mind behind the work (or more likely loss of revenue for the greedy corperate overloards that tricked the creative mind into tranfering rights to their work for a small sum of money).
Actually auto piolet can take off and land a plane, what it cannot do at this point is runway taxiing. The problem is that in some cases a human can deal with unexpected circumstances better than a computer, so it is advantagous to have a human pilot onboard, and redundency is always nice incase one is injured/rendered unconcience in some sort of accident. However it would be feasable to eliminate a co-pilot if airline attendentes were given basic flight instructions (emergency landing/radio operation). In the grand scheme of things, i personally would not feel comftrable (at this point) with the knoldage that there is only one HUMAN on the plane i am on capable of manuvering and landing said aircraft.
actually it more likely would have led to a system where user generated content is dis allowed because there is no other way to block copyrighted material.
There i fixed that for you, grammar issues aside, modern nuclear technology does not have the same waste issues that plants of the 60's and 70's had. If you would like to read more http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thorium is a great resource. Although this fuel is not 100% perfect, no "clean energy" method is. Every method we have of producing energy on this planet (reasonable method, not talking about putting everyone in giant hamster wheels or anything similarly stupid) can be argued to have negative environmental impact on the planet. Out very existence here can be argued to have a negative environmental impact on the planet for that matter. Also when you make such a bold accusation, it would be helpful to cite sources to prove your point (because if you had you would have most likely discovered the advances we have made in the field and probably not opened your mouth/keyboard about it)
Because a lot of politicians and "regular people" are scared shit-less of nuclear power because of incidents like 3 mile island, and chernobyl. It becomes a NIMBY issue, no one wants the plants anywhere near them, and they will fight vehemently to prevent them from happening.
You are still incorrect, shifting into neutral should not kill ABS or power steering, while turning the vehicle off will kill both, at high speeds power steering isnt as much of an issue, but abs would still be useful to have. Toyota itself recommends depressing the brake, shifting to neutral, and if all else fails shutting power off, then immedently pulling the car over and turning the car off.
and to the GP Most cars have "rev limiters" which should kick in preventing any damage to the engine while running full throttle in neutral, this should prevent any rods from being thrown, which while not usually fatal (their usually angled up and away from the seating cabin v6/v8, or are vertical/diagonal and aimed out the side of the vehicle inline4/inline6 which would most likely not make it out of the motor compartment after loosing force penetrating the head) could cause alarm.
it depends on the exact hypothetical scenario. If were referring to the cases were the engine goes full throttle, and the brakes fail to function at all (being in a affected model such as a Prius) the correct coarse of action would be to try to shift into neutral and to to power off the car. If however you are in some other car you would need to specify what type of car, weather it was automatic or clutch, and weather it was drive-by-wire or manual throttle control, as well as weather it had disc brakes, drum brakes, etc. there are many variables. Sticking strictly to the reported scenarios with the models they were reported in, (assuming driver error isnt at fault, which it most likely is, but for this "hypothetical scenario" lets rule it out). What would YOU recommend a driver do in this case? (Stuck behind the wheel of a Prius at 60+Mph, with no brakes, and the motor going full throttle, regardless of pedal input?) Toyota itself recommends shifting into neutral, pulling over, and trying to turn the car off...
oh and also most cars have "rev limiters" which should kick in preventing any damage to the engine while running full throttle in neutral, but even so, what is more important your motor, or your safety (and in the event it does total the motor and is found to be a fault in the car, im fairly confident that this would net you a brand new car from the mfg provided the car wasn't ridiculously out of warranty of anything).
statistics is a weird field. Statistically they may be more prone to accidents, but that can be due to tons of reasons, not just because of faulty equipment or bad design. It could be due to the age/demographic that the cars appeal to being more inclined to report perceived issues, being more inclined to cause what they perceive as an issue, being more inclined to want in on a major class action suite to get $$, or being on the road more/driving the car more. these are only a few factors that i can think of that could skew results statistically that may be perceived as a software glitch.
It is most certainly possibly, in the same way that its possible for me to win one million dollars sitting here right now... possible, but extremely unlikely, and would require an insane series of failures/events to occur as it is claimed.
i have re-read this comment 3x and still can not make any sense of it, in fact its hurting my head. whats hurting my head even more is how it got modded +3... do the mods even READ the comments they mod?
The issue at hand here is the cars in question (hybrids) do not have "Independent Mechanical Systems" they use "Brake-By-Wire" to allow the Regenerative Braking Technology to work. In essence, the computer controls both the breaks and the throttle. Although i agree that the problem here is most likely user error, and the whole case has been blown WAY out of proportion, it is technically possible for a flaw like describes to happen. While these vehicles still use traditional hydraulic rotor/pad break setups (at low speeds) they still depend on the electronic/computer control to engage them.
Acura/Nissan/GM: no direct links, however could not find any models referencing DBW/electronic throttle pre 2003 and same for Nissan and the stated 2006 date. I didnt take the time to verify GM.
You seem to have in depth knowledge of standard hydraulic brake systems, however the Toyota Prius (the model in question), being a hybrid car, depends on regenerative braking, basically, turning the wheels into generators to slow the car using friction and generating electricity, rather than the traditional rotor/pad combination that has been in use since the mid 80's. This system by nature has to be an electronic rather than a manual one. However in the event of a computer failure, it should still be possible to shift into neutral, in the unlikely case where the computer will not shift into neutral and the car is still running (very unlikely as this assumes the computer wont take user input but is still accepting motor input) it is STILL possible to turn the vehicle off. However, i for one, still prefer the old mechanical systems, if for no other reason than i just feel "safer" and "more in control" with them.
you really underestimate the depth and scope of human stupidity.... i could definably see 30, or even 300 people trying something like this, however im not accusing them of doing it intentionally. And the logger would also happen to show that exact combination if that's actually what really happened, someone got scared, almost in a wreck, stomped the gas instead of the brake, and went flying, and didn't realize their mistake. It hasn't just happened with Toyota, it has happened with other makes and models for many years now. Toyota just got a huge amount of press for it, and it became a national sensation as many irrelevant things seem to become these days (ie Obama's Birth Certificate, Arizona's Kidnapping "Problem", and just about anything Sara Palin does...). Also Toyota has never blamed this on the driver, they have simply said they can not come to any other conclusion they have never said that the driver is at fault.
The care they are examine are actual cars the issue has supposedly occurred in. And the only "software" update Toyota issued was an update that caused the power to the motor to cut out when the brake pedal is depressed regardless of the position of the acceleration pedal. If i have missed something could you please cite the source where Toyota has issued any other update? and explain how the issue is continuing even after Toyota issued a update that "fixed" the problem?
Could you please cite your source here? Were you told this by a Toyota engineer? if so do you know his name? is there a documented case or source that verifies the claim that the acceleration system behaves in this way? Do you even own a Toyota with said issue? Does the person who told you own Toyota with said issue? or is it possible he/she is just making things up based on the news reports and no real first hand knowledge of the issue or systems in the vehicle?
and Toyota is also the most popular brand bought in the us. I think the GP's point isnt about price range so much as about sales volume/popularity. Toyota's (until the news broke about the sudden acceleration "problem") were considered one of the most reliable and trusted cars in the US. More cars on the road = higher chance that unqualified people will be operating them.
And on a side note, they tend to have "Soccer Mom" appeal, and we all know that women are horrible drivers! (just kidding)
Did you even bother to read the story blurb on slashdot? this test was conducted by the NHTSA, which is the government organization responsible for independently testing these things, i think they have inspected sensors and software to ensure there are no errors that could cause this data to be recorded improperly. It has been shown that all cars have a percentage of people with this problem (user error) however some reports speculate that the Toyota models in question have a higher occurrence of this problem. This however does not mean that their cars are more faulty or have an inherent problem with this, there are many things that could skew the numbers. These factors include the popularity of the make and model in question, the demographic of the customer who may purchase the car (how likely they are to report perceived problems and how likely they are to encounter a issue they perceive as a problem, as well as their technical understanding of how the systems work vs how the system worked on previous models). These are just a few factors outside of hardware/software that can contribute to the numbers being skewed in one direction or another for a make/model of car.
IIRC they even had NASA analyzing the code and hardware to ensure there were no errors in the hardware/software package Toyota shipped on its cars. I'm not saying that there is not an error in the software/hardware package, just that it has most definitely undergone VERY close scrutiny. But as with all things, human error can cause things to be over looked. All I'm saying here, is that your statement that "you don't get out of this THAT easily" is more flaimbait than it is useful to this conversation.
i 100% agree, sorry about the lack of paragraphs, im forgot my post method was html formatted instead of Plain Old Text. If i could edit it i would, but all in all, i thought it was a well thought out argument although its hard to find a 100% relevant or valid analogy which refers to this sort of situation.
Slashdot Mirror
50 light years is relatively close, cosmically speaking. It has taken 50 years from light from this diamond to reach us, thats pretty damn quick, the point of the GP is about intelligent life out there, they are likely hundreds of millions of light years away, if not more. The milky way galaxy alone (but a small drop in the bucket cosmically speaking) is 100,000 light years across, and distances only get astronomically greater from there, so yes light from this diamond is not from a "long time ago" but many things in the sky which we have observed are from a LONG LONG LONG time ago.
and while it is illegal to steal a physical copy of a dvd form a retail store (this would clearly be theft) copying the information ON the dvd is not theft as it does not deprive anyone of the orignal. This is the definition of copyright infringment. Theft is physical, copyright infringment involves using the IDEAS (or the resulting work comming from the idea) of others. The point here is that a stealing a car deprives someone else of that physical good they bought and paid for, copying data however does not deprive anyone of what they have, it results in loss of revenue for the creative mind behind the work (or more likely loss of revenue for the greedy corperate overloards that tricked the creative mind into tranfering rights to their work for a small sum of money).
Actually auto piolet can take off and land a plane, what it cannot do at this point is runway taxiing. The problem is that in some cases a human can deal with unexpected circumstances better than a computer, so it is advantagous to have a human pilot onboard, and redundency is always nice incase one is injured/rendered unconcience in some sort of accident. However it would be feasable to eliminate a co-pilot if airline attendentes were given basic flight instructions (emergency landing/radio operation). In the grand scheme of things, i personally would not feel comftrable (at this point) with the knoldage that there is only one HUMAN on the plane i am on capable of manuvering and landing said aircraft.
Sources: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autopilot (shows that take-off and landing autopilots do exist)
actually it more likely would have led to a system where user generated content is dis allowed because there is no other way to block copyrighted material.
so you've copyrighted all empty files?
i think i have some prior art that nullifies your copyright.
*wont make that less of a problem
There i fixed that for you, grammar issues aside, modern nuclear technology does not have the same waste issues that plants of the 60's and 70's had. If you would like to read more http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thorium is a great resource. Although this fuel is not 100% perfect, no "clean energy" method is. Every method we have of producing energy on this planet (reasonable method, not talking about putting everyone in giant hamster wheels or anything similarly stupid) can be argued to have negative environmental impact on the planet. Out very existence here can be argued to have a negative environmental impact on the planet for that matter. Also when you make such a bold accusation, it would be helpful to cite sources to prove your point (because if you had you would have most likely discovered the advances we have made in the field and probably not opened your mouth/keyboard about it)
Because a lot of politicians and "regular people" are scared shit-less of nuclear power because of incidents like 3 mile island, and chernobyl. It becomes a NIMBY issue, no one wants the plants anywhere near them, and they will fight vehemently to prevent them from happening.
to cmdrtaco!
You are still incorrect, shifting into neutral should not kill ABS or power steering, while turning the vehicle off will kill both, at high speeds power steering isnt as much of an issue, but abs would still be useful to have. Toyota itself recommends depressing the brake, shifting to neutral, and if all else fails shutting power off, then immedently pulling the car over and turning the car off.
sources:
http://pressroom.toyota.com/pr/tms/document/Floor_mat_Owner_Letter_sample.pdf (instructs the user to shift to neutral and power the vehicle off)
http://www.caranddriver.com/features/09q4/how_to_deal_with_unintended_acceleration-tech_dept
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/resources/streaming/PDFs/cr_suddenunintended-acceleration_012910.pdf
and to the GP
Most cars have "rev limiters" which should kick in preventing any damage to the engine while running full throttle in neutral, this should prevent any rods from being thrown, which while not usually fatal (their usually angled up and away from the seating cabin v6/v8, or are vertical/diagonal and aimed out the side of the vehicle inline4/inline6 which would most likely not make it out of the motor compartment after loosing force penetrating the head) could cause alarm.
it depends on the exact hypothetical scenario. If were referring to the cases were the engine goes full throttle, and the brakes fail to function at all (being in a affected model such as a Prius) the correct coarse of action would be to try to shift into neutral and to to power off the car. If however you are in some other car you would need to specify what type of car, weather it was automatic or clutch, and weather it was drive-by-wire or manual throttle control, as well as weather it had disc brakes, drum brakes, etc. there are many variables. Sticking strictly to the reported scenarios with the models they were reported in, (assuming driver error isnt at fault, which it most likely is, but for this "hypothetical scenario" lets rule it out). What would YOU recommend a driver do in this case? (Stuck behind the wheel of a Prius at 60+Mph, with no brakes, and the motor going full throttle, regardless of pedal input?) Toyota itself recommends shifting into neutral, pulling over, and trying to turn the car off...
source:
http://pressroom.toyota.com/pr/tms/document/Floor_mat_Owner_Letter_sample.pdf (instructs the user to shift to neutral and power the vehicle off)
http://www.caranddriver.com/features/09q4/how_to_deal_with_unintended_acceleration-tech_dept
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/resources/streaming/PDFs/cr_suddenunintended-acceleration_012910.pdf
oh and also most cars have "rev limiters" which should kick in preventing any damage to the engine while running full throttle in neutral, but even so, what is more important your motor, or your safety (and in the event it does total the motor and is found to be a fault in the car, im fairly confident that this would net you a brand new car from the mfg provided the car wasn't ridiculously out of warranty of anything).
statistics is a weird field. Statistically they may be more prone to accidents, but that can be due to tons of reasons, not just because of faulty equipment or bad design. It could be due to the age/demographic that the cars appeal to being more inclined to report perceived issues, being more inclined to cause what they perceive as an issue, being more inclined to want in on a major class action suite to get $$, or being on the road more/driving the car more. these are only a few factors that i can think of that could skew results statistically that may be perceived as a software glitch.
It is most certainly possibly, in the same way that its possible for me to win one million dollars sitting here right now... possible, but extremely unlikely, and would require an insane series of failures/events to occur as it is claimed.
if this were the case it would be reproducible on the vehicle in question.
i have re-read this comment 3x and still can not make any sense of it, in fact its hurting my head. whats hurting my head even more is how it got modded +3... do the mods even READ the comments they mod?
The issue at hand here is the cars in question (hybrids) do not have "Independent Mechanical Systems" they use "Brake-By-Wire" to allow the Regenerative Braking Technology to work. In essence, the computer controls both the breaks and the throttle. Although i agree that the problem here is most likely user error, and the whole case has been blown WAY out of proportion, it is technically possible for a flaw like describes to happen. While these vehicles still use traditional hydraulic rotor/pad break setups (at low speeds) they still depend on the electronic/computer control to engage them.
sources:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brake-by-wire
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regenerative_braking
Very insightful, it would have been more useful to also include sources for this information, seeing as you did not here are some sources:
Honda:
http://www.honda-tech.com/showthread.php?p=40246139
http://www.hondacarforum.com/honda-2/41884-drive-wire-dbw.html
(these are both forms as its difficult to find an authoritative source, feel free to do more research yourself)
Mitsubishi:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsubishi_6B3_engine
Acura/Nissan/GM:
no direct links, however could not find any models referencing DBW/electronic throttle pre 2003 and same for Nissan and the stated 2006 date. I didnt take the time to verify GM.
You seem to have in depth knowledge of standard hydraulic brake systems, however the Toyota Prius (the model in question), being a hybrid car, depends on regenerative braking, basically, turning the wheels into generators to slow the car using friction and generating electricity, rather than the traditional rotor/pad combination that has been in use since the mid 80's. This system by nature has to be an electronic rather than a manual one. However in the event of a computer failure, it should still be possible to shift into neutral, in the unlikely case where the computer will not shift into neutral and the car is still running (very unlikely as this assumes the computer wont take user input but is still accepting motor input) it is STILL possible to turn the vehicle off. However, i for one, still prefer the old mechanical systems, if for no other reason than i just feel "safer" and "more in control" with them.
you really underestimate the depth and scope of human stupidity.... i could definably see 30, or even 300 people trying something like this, however im not accusing them of doing it intentionally. And the logger would also happen to show that exact combination if that's actually what really happened, someone got scared, almost in a wreck, stomped the gas instead of the brake, and went flying, and didn't realize their mistake. It hasn't just happened with Toyota, it has happened with other makes and models for many years now. Toyota just got a huge amount of press for it, and it became a national sensation as many irrelevant things seem to become these days (ie Obama's Birth Certificate, Arizona's Kidnapping "Problem", and just about anything Sara Palin does...). Also Toyota has never blamed this on the driver, they have simply said they can not come to any other conclusion they have never said that the driver is at fault.
Sources:
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/sudden-acceleration-kentucky-driver-defends-account-runaway-chevrolet/story?id=10943811
http://www.safetyforum.com/sua/
http://www.autosafety.org/srr/SAEURO.pdf
or just about anything else:
http://www.google.com/#hl=en&q=sudden+acceleration+-toyota
The care they are examine are actual cars the issue has supposedly occurred in. And the only "software" update Toyota issued was an update that caused the power to the motor to cut out when the brake pedal is depressed regardless of the position of the acceleration pedal. If i have missed something could you please cite the source where Toyota has issued any other update? and explain how the issue is continuing even after Toyota issued a update that "fixed" the problem?
Could you please cite your source here? Were you told this by a Toyota engineer? if so do you know his name? is there a documented case or source that verifies the claim that the acceleration system behaves in this way? Do you even own a Toyota with said issue? Does the person who told you own Toyota with said issue? or is it possible he/she is just making things up based on the news reports and no real first hand knowledge of the issue or systems in the vehicle?
cite VERIFIABLE sources please?
and Toyota is also the most popular brand bought in the us. I think the GP's point isnt about price range so much as about sales volume/popularity. Toyota's (until the news broke about the sudden acceleration "problem") were considered one of the most reliable and trusted cars in the US. More cars on the road = higher chance that unqualified people will be operating them.
And on a side note, they tend to have "Soccer Mom" appeal, and we all know that women are horrible drivers! (just kidding)
jeeze, where do you live? only 10% of drivers are complete idiots... im moving there! id way its more like 90% here!
Did you even bother to read the story blurb on slashdot? this test was conducted by the NHTSA, which is the government organization responsible for independently testing these things, i think they have inspected sensors and software to ensure there are no errors that could cause this data to be recorded improperly. It has been shown that all cars have a percentage of people with this problem (user error) however some reports speculate that the Toyota models in question have a higher occurrence of this problem. This however does not mean that their cars are more faulty or have an inherent problem with this, there are many things that could skew the numbers. These factors include the popularity of the make and model in question, the demographic of the customer who may purchase the car (how likely they are to report perceived problems and how likely they are to encounter a issue they perceive as a problem, as well as their technical understanding of how the systems work vs how the system worked on previous models). These are just a few factors outside of hardware/software that can contribute to the numbers being skewed in one direction or another for a make/model of car.
IIRC they even had NASA analyzing the code and hardware to ensure there were no errors in the hardware/software package Toyota shipped on its cars. I'm not saying that there is not an error in the software/hardware package, just that it has most definitely undergone VERY close scrutiny. But as with all things, human error can cause things to be over looked. All I'm saying here, is that your statement that "you don't get out of this THAT easily" is more flaimbait than it is useful to this conversation.
i 100% agree, sorry about the lack of paragraphs, im forgot my post method was html formatted instead of Plain Old Text. If i could edit it i would, but all in all, i thought it was a well thought out argument although its hard to find a 100% relevant or valid analogy which refers to this sort of situation.