Steel. Ukraine is a large manufacturer of steel which Russia would utilize in revamping its economy into a war mode. This is only a regional war if Russia loses. If Russia is allowed to win this, it will creep its way into becoming a World War.
Until Russia pulls out of Ukraine and Crimea, don't expect to be winning too many arguments. Being wrong is wrong no matter how much you may try to nuance it.
Ukrainian armed forces just indiscriminately shells the city while the separatists are nowhere near.
Even if the Russian terrorist forces were nowhere near (something that is hard to establish in the first place because terrorists operate in secret), all that would mean is that Ukrainian artillery is acting on bad intelligence. Intelligence, which for you know is fed to them by the terrorists. The terrorists' aim is always to create maximum casualties on both sides to create instability.
showing how full of manure you are
Could be worse. I could be you -- defending a regime of thieves who are trying to take by force what couldn't take through bribes. I've seen the Russian terrorist training videos on YouTube (no link because they get removed pretty fast). But they do glorify maximum gore and casualty count. I am aware of the Ice Cream joke that circles Russia in reference to Alaska. Don't bull shit me. I know exactly what Russia is today.
I know exactly what it means. The Russian forces operating on Ukrainian territory without declaration of war, without identifying themselves as acting on behalf of the Russian state, acting with the sole goal of destabilizing the legitimate government through terror do qualify every standard definition of the word "terrorists". They most definitely are (and therefore so is the Russian state) guilty of all the bloodshed in Ukraine. Even the blood of the civilian causalities in the terrorist-occupied parts of Ukraine is the blood that is on Russian hands. Russia organized this. Russia sent the people who started this. Russia continues to support this military operation without admitting to it (in fact while claiming that the president of Russia no longer has a Duma authorization to use armed forces on Ukrainian territory). By acting contrary to even its own laws, Russia is acting as a terorrist state and the civilian whom it puts in the harms way are harmed by Russian actions. There is no ethnic cleansing of Russians. There is no Ukrainian army going around rounding up ethnic Russian and sending them to camps. The artillery fire that harms the civilians in Eastern Ukraine is only a defensive fire meant to thwart the clandestine Russian aggression and campaign of terror.
Ukrainian armed forces just indiscriminately shells the city
What an outrageous lie! It is not indiscriminate. Russian terrorist forces are embedding themselves in civilian population. And when shooting at the Russian terrorist forces, Ukrainian sometimes miss. Missing the intended targets is not (ever!) called "indiscriminate" bombing. The civilian casualties are only due to the fact that Russian terrorists are cowards hiding behind civilians.
Politicians ain't allowed to run countries anymore,
They are in Russia. Well, it's either the political class or the military that's running things right now. It's certainly not the corporations (as you, no doubt, will try to suggest). Russia has fundamentally transformed itself since adopting its National Socialist agenda. It is now ethnic-centered para-military dictatorship.
Of course, there is. Russia is the villain. It is the aggressor trying to invade and extort its innocent neighbor. While trying to defend itself from the unprovoked Russian aggression, Ukraine is forced to fire on enemy Russian units which often embed themselves in civilian centers (a well-known terrorist tactic which goes by the name "human shields"). Ukraine doesn't censor media. The links you posted simply showed that Russian channels would no longer be carried on Ukrainian cable subscriptions. I would imagine that any country A that is being invaded by country B would not allow country B to use its infrastructure. That's not censorship. That's war. Russia doesn't just stop channels from broadcasting. Russia has passed draconian laws which give the government free reign over ALL sources of information.
France has entered into a material agreement to sell Russia an aircraft carrier. This would be a NATO aircraft carrier. France, consistent with its traditions, surrendered before the war began.
I am still hoping to wake from this nightmare, so I will not try to contemplate the actual details of a war between Russia and Ukraine. If you think majority of Russians living in Ukraine will consider themselves Russian and be happy to be invaded, remember this: national identity is formed by 2 components (not ethnic, but national). These components are a legend of a traumatic event and a history of blood sacrifice. Russia is now supplying Ukraine with both. Whatever their ethnic denominations are, the ethnic Russians living in Ukraine will take pride in being Ukrainian citizens who stood up to the aggressors. If you don't think that's possible, just remember that Russia now is what Germany was in WWII. And the Germans who opposed the Nazis did so proudly and fervently. So will the Russians who oppose Russia. Let me put it this way. I never gave a damn about having been born in Ukraine. It never meant anything to me. I shared the common Russian view of Ukraine as being overly folksy. Until now. Nothing makes people prouder than righteous indignation. And for all the giddiness that Russians feel about their self-ascribed military superiority, Russia will be fought because it's the right thing to do. There is no longer an option for a peaceful resolution left to the world. Russia is quickly becoming the monster to be vanquished.
I especially enjoyed the bit about the Kiev controlled press. Russia has, by all accounts (on slashdot alone) has re-instituted the censorship levels almost to the Soviet levels.... almost. Kiev-controlled press. That's fantastic. That the people behind this unprovoked military aggression would try to accuse those who are defending themselves of being sinister. That's chutzpah.
If the reports are, in fact true, and the Russian troops have crossed into Ukraine, there are no good choices left. It's regional war now or World War later. Putin has been positioning to break NATO for the past few years. If he takes Ukraine, he'll put it into full military production mode (it's a large producer of steel). And once he can steam roll over Balkans, he will have invaded a NATO member. France has entered into a material agreement to sell Russia an aircraft carrier within the past 6 months (effectively surrendering in this war before it started... France does have its traditions). Which means France will not honor its NATO obligations. Germany will surrender (out of guilt if nothing else... they will not want to fight a war against Russia). Who's left? Spain? Portugal? Italy? Poland? Actually, Poland might save Europe again. It'll be a tough fight, but if it gets that far, it's already a World War. Regional war now or World War later. No good choices left.
Not impossible, maybe. Don't count on it being a walk on the beach though. Every domino will fall after if this happens, but don't expect it to be another Georgia.
"How horrible, fantastic, incredible it is that we should be digging trenches and trying on gas masks here because of a quarrel in a far-away country between people of whom we know nothing. It seems still more impossible that a quarrel which has already been settled in principle should be the subject of war." --Neville Chamberlain, 1939
I mentioned in a previous comment that if this aggression is not stopped NOW, then it would not stop until a nuclear exchange. If Russia is allowed to take Ukraine, they'll keep going until the world decided that this is for real. I don't think anyone believes it just yet.
Also don't forget the keyword "corrupt". Once a leader is thoroughly corrupt, he has put himself outside of the restrictions of the rule of law. His removal becomes both legal and illegal (and so does his staying in power) because the rule of law no longer applies. But, of course, the last straw was his ordering of shooting of peaceful unarmed protesters. It's a tall order to prove that a leader rules by law (rather than by force) after such an act.
he Fact is the previous president was compelled to leave office via extra-legal means.
Technically, he left the country on his own accord. But he only did so because he was no longer credible as a civilian leader after forcing police to shoot scores of peaceful unarmed protesters.
Been asleep for 10 years, have you? Russia is now the sole owner of the largest Oil company in the world. It is also the largest member of OPEC. It has fallen behind in the aviation technology, but it has (in the past few years) renovated it's military industry. It has already learned Western logistics methodologies. The hardware they use is mostly outdated. But you are kidding yourself if you think they can't switch to the military mode. If they take Ukraine, they'll increase their population by 1/3rd overnight. They will also retake the main steel production centers (currently owned by Mittal). Moscow is the 2nd largest WiFi hub in Europe (Frankfurt is the 1st). Still don't think they can roll through Europe? Is Europe united? Can it master a defense? Can it be conscripted for the purposes of defense? You think professional army is enough? I hope you are right. Because from everything I read (in Russian), they are giddy about the prospect of a war.
No, the current regime of Russia is a text book Nationalist Socialist regime. Russia is currently a text-book Nazi state. So the factions in Russia which are Nazi are not minor. They are the government.
Ukraine is responding to military attacks by the Russian military personal calling itself "separatist forces" who are led by a "former" KGB officer. The civilian blood of the people whom Russia is using as human shields is on the hands of Russian aggressors as is all blood of all human shields used by terrorists everywhere.
Removing elected officials from office because of their corruption is not contrary to the rule of law. And Yanukovich was a corrupt Russian puppet. Eastern Ukraine was not cut off from the vote. That's a lie. Not that it would matter. The winner of the election got 53%. The next highest runner up (and there were a few) got less than 20%. This election was about as clear-cut as they ever get.
What ragtag rebels? There are no separatists. The "separatist" forces are trained Russian military personal. They are led by a "former" KGB officer. And they are supplied by Russia with heavy armament. They managed to shutdown a plane flying above the shooting distance of most ground-to-air missiles. They are extremely well-armed. One could argue that the best of Russian military equipment is what these "separatists" were using. And Ukraine has been holding off against them ok so far. If Ukraine is equipped better, Russia would be forced to start paying real prices for the gas pipe its renting from Ukraine (not to mention that it would forget any dreams of military conquest).
Yeah, I wouldn't take seriously the post of any AC or anyone whose slashdot id is in the last 10-20% of the id range (you can configure your slashdot settings based on that).
They only "wanted" to join Russia after Russia invaded Crimea. And only very limited number of them. Most people living in the separatist regions have either fled or would flee if they could. The commander of the "separatist" forces is a "former" KGB officer. There were no tensions... none whatsoever... before Russia created them.
Slashdot Mirror
Steel. Ukraine is a large manufacturer of steel which Russia would utilize in revamping its economy into a war mode. This is only a regional war if Russia loses. If Russia is allowed to win this, it will creep its way into becoming a World War.
Until Russia pulls out of Ukraine and Crimea, don't expect to be winning too many arguments. Being wrong is wrong no matter how much you may try to nuance it.
Ukrainian armed forces just indiscriminately shells the city while the separatists are nowhere near.
Even if the Russian terrorist forces were nowhere near (something that is hard to establish in the first place because terrorists operate in secret), all that would mean is that Ukrainian artillery is acting on bad intelligence. Intelligence, which for you know is fed to them by the terrorists. The terrorists' aim is always to create maximum casualties on both sides to create instability.
showing how full of manure you are
Could be worse. I could be you -- defending a regime of thieves who are trying to take by force what couldn't take through bribes. I've seen the Russian terrorist training videos on YouTube (no link because they get removed pretty fast). But they do glorify maximum gore and casualty count. I am aware of the Ice Cream joke that circles Russia in reference to Alaska. Don't bull shit me. I know exactly what Russia is today.
Besides, you keep using the word "terrorists".
I know exactly what it means. The Russian forces operating on Ukrainian territory without declaration of war, without identifying themselves as acting on behalf of the Russian state, acting with the sole goal of destabilizing the legitimate government through terror do qualify every standard definition of the word "terrorists". They most definitely are (and therefore so is the Russian state) guilty of all the bloodshed in Ukraine. Even the blood of the civilian causalities in the terrorist-occupied parts of Ukraine is the blood that is on Russian hands. Russia organized this. Russia sent the people who started this. Russia continues to support this military operation without admitting to it (in fact while claiming that the president of Russia no longer has a Duma authorization to use armed forces on Ukrainian territory). By acting contrary to even its own laws, Russia is acting as a terorrist state and the civilian whom it puts in the harms way are harmed by Russian actions. There is no ethnic cleansing of Russians. There is no Ukrainian army going around rounding up ethnic Russian and sending them to camps. The artillery fire that harms the civilians in Eastern Ukraine is only a defensive fire meant to thwart the clandestine Russian aggression and campaign of terror.
Ukrainian armed forces just indiscriminately shells the city
What an outrageous lie! It is not indiscriminate. Russian terrorist forces are embedding themselves in civilian population. And when shooting at the Russian terrorist forces, Ukrainian sometimes miss. Missing the intended targets is not (ever!) called "indiscriminate" bombing. The civilian casualties are only due to the fact that Russian terrorists are cowards hiding behind civilians.
Politicians ain't allowed to run countries anymore,
They are in Russia. Well, it's either the political class or the military that's running things right now. It's certainly not the corporations (as you, no doubt, will try to suggest). Russia has fundamentally transformed itself since adopting its National Socialist agenda. It is now ethnic-centered para-military dictatorship.
Of course, there is. Russia is the villain. It is the aggressor trying to invade and extort its innocent neighbor. While trying to defend itself from the unprovoked Russian aggression, Ukraine is forced to fire on enemy Russian units which often embed themselves in civilian centers (a well-known terrorist tactic which goes by the name "human shields"). Ukraine doesn't censor media. The links you posted simply showed that Russian channels would no longer be carried on Ukrainian cable subscriptions. I would imagine that any country A that is being invaded by country B would not allow country B to use its infrastructure. That's not censorship. That's war. Russia doesn't just stop channels from broadcasting. Russia has passed draconian laws which give the government free reign over ALL sources of information.
France has entered into a material agreement to sell Russia an aircraft carrier. This would be a NATO aircraft carrier. France, consistent with its traditions, surrendered before the war began.
I am still hoping to wake from this nightmare, so I will not try to contemplate the actual details of a war between Russia and Ukraine. If you think majority of Russians living in Ukraine will consider themselves Russian and be happy to be invaded, remember this: national identity is formed by 2 components (not ethnic, but national). These components are a legend of a traumatic event and a history of blood sacrifice. Russia is now supplying Ukraine with both. Whatever their ethnic denominations are, the ethnic Russians living in Ukraine will take pride in being Ukrainian citizens who stood up to the aggressors. If you don't think that's possible, just remember that Russia now is what Germany was in WWII. And the Germans who opposed the Nazis did so proudly and fervently. So will the Russians who oppose Russia. Let me put it this way. I never gave a damn about having been born in Ukraine. It never meant anything to me. I shared the common Russian view of Ukraine as being overly folksy. Until now. Nothing makes people prouder than righteous indignation. And for all the giddiness that Russians feel about their self-ascribed military superiority, Russia will be fought because it's the right thing to do. There is no longer an option for a peaceful resolution left to the world. Russia is quickly becoming the monster to be vanquished.
I especially enjoyed the bit about the Kiev controlled press. Russia has, by all accounts (on slashdot alone) has re-instituted the censorship levels almost to the Soviet levels.... almost. Kiev-controlled press. That's fantastic. That the people behind this unprovoked military aggression would try to accuse those who are defending themselves of being sinister. That's chutzpah.
If the reports are, in fact true, and the Russian troops have crossed into Ukraine, there are no good choices left. It's regional war now or World War later. Putin has been positioning to break NATO for the past few years. If he takes Ukraine, he'll put it into full military production mode (it's a large producer of steel). And once he can steam roll over Balkans, he will have invaded a NATO member. France has entered into a material agreement to sell Russia an aircraft carrier within the past 6 months (effectively surrendering in this war before it started... France does have its traditions). Which means France will not honor its NATO obligations. Germany will surrender (out of guilt if nothing else... they will not want to fight a war against Russia). Who's left? Spain? Portugal? Italy? Poland? Actually, Poland might save Europe again. It'll be a tough fight, but if it gets that far, it's already a World War. Regional war now or World War later. No good choices left.
Steamrolling over Ukraine is not hard.
Not impossible, maybe. Don't count on it being a walk on the beach though. Every domino will fall after if this happens, but don't expect it to be another Georgia.
Europe != Ukraine.
"How horrible, fantastic, incredible it is that we should be digging trenches and trying on gas masks here because of a quarrel in a far-away country between people of whom we know nothing. It seems still more impossible that a quarrel which has already been settled in principle should be the subject of war." --Neville Chamberlain, 1939
I mentioned in a previous comment that if this aggression is not stopped NOW, then it would not stop until a nuclear exchange. If Russia is allowed to take Ukraine, they'll keep going until the world decided that this is for real. I don't think anyone believes it just yet.
Also don't forget the keyword "corrupt". Once a leader is thoroughly corrupt, he has put himself outside of the restrictions of the rule of law. His removal becomes both legal and illegal (and so does his staying in power) because the rule of law no longer applies. But, of course, the last straw was his ordering of shooting of peaceful unarmed protesters. It's a tall order to prove that a leader rules by law (rather than by force) after such an act.
he Fact is the previous president was compelled to leave office via extra-legal means.
Technically, he left the country on his own accord. But he only did so because he was no longer credible as a civilian leader after forcing police to shoot scores of peaceful unarmed protesters.
Been asleep for 10 years, have you? Russia is now the sole owner of the largest Oil company in the world. It is also the largest member of OPEC. It has fallen behind in the aviation technology, but it has (in the past few years) renovated it's military industry. It has already learned Western logistics methodologies. The hardware they use is mostly outdated. But you are kidding yourself if you think they can't switch to the military mode. If they take Ukraine, they'll increase their population by 1/3rd overnight. They will also retake the main steel production centers (currently owned by Mittal). Moscow is the 2nd largest WiFi hub in Europe (Frankfurt is the 1st). Still don't think they can roll through Europe? Is Europe united? Can it master a defense? Can it be conscripted for the purposes of defense? You think professional army is enough? I hope you are right. Because from everything I read (in Russian), they are giddy about the prospect of a war.
No, the current regime of Russia is a text book Nationalist Socialist regime. Russia is currently a text-book Nazi state. So the factions in Russia which are Nazi are not minor. They are the government.
Ukraine is responding to military attacks by the Russian military personal calling itself "separatist forces" who are led by a "former" KGB officer. The civilian blood of the people whom Russia is using as human shields is on the hands of Russian aggressors as is all blood of all human shields used by terrorists everywhere.
Removing elected officials from office because of their corruption is not contrary to the rule of law. And Yanukovich was a corrupt Russian puppet. Eastern Ukraine was not cut off from the vote. That's a lie. Not that it would matter. The winner of the election got 53%. The next highest runner up (and there were a few) got less than 20%. This election was about as clear-cut as they ever get.
What ragtag rebels? There are no separatists. The "separatist" forces are trained Russian military personal. They are led by a "former" KGB officer. And they are supplied by Russia with heavy armament. They managed to shutdown a plane flying above the shooting distance of most ground-to-air missiles. They are extremely well-armed. One could argue that the best of Russian military equipment is what these "separatists" were using. And Ukraine has been holding off against them ok so far. If Ukraine is equipped better, Russia would be forced to start paying real prices for the gas pipe its renting from Ukraine (not to mention that it would forget any dreams of military conquest).
None. Russia will continue its aggression until the first nuclear exchange. No one thinks this is for real. And no one will until it gets real.
Not rt.com. It's a mouth piece (openly so) of the government of the Russian Federation.
Yeah, I wouldn't take seriously the post of any AC or anyone whose slashdot id is in the last 10-20% of the id range (you can configure your slashdot settings based on that).
Ukraine has the right to use any and all means necessary to protect itself from this unprovoked aggression by Russia.
They only "wanted" to join Russia after Russia invaded Crimea. And only very limited number of them. Most people living in the separatist regions have either fled or would flee if they could. The commander of the "separatist" forces is a "former" KGB officer. There were no tensions... none whatsoever... before Russia created them.