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Russian Military Forces Have Now Invaded Ukraine
SpzToid (869795) writes Those plucky "Ukrainian separatist's" ambition to join Russia have now been given Russian military support, as the Russian Army with long columns of armor have invaded Ukraine and have opened up a second warring front, in a big way. The Reuters report, interestingly, quotes a member of Putin's own advisory council on human rights describing the move as an invasion: "When masses of people, under commanders' orders, on tanks, APCs and with the use of heavy weapons, (are) on the territory of another country, cross the border, I consider this an invasion."
In Soviet Russia, border crosses troops!
Chuuch. Preach. Tabernacle.
With hastily spray-painted Ukrainian flags!
The rest of the world does absolutely nothing.
Unfortunately for those living there a lack of control of Ukraine is an existential threat to Russia, and it always has been. This is Putin and his faction basically saying "Bring it Europe/US. What are you going to do?" They're gambling that Ukrainian sovereignty is less important to the US and Europe than getting in a shooting war with Russia, and quite frankly they're probably right.
Wasn't it a wonderful, peaceful time, so long ago? Ah, those were the days.
You can't be ahead of the curve, if you're stuck in a loop.
I'm on the other side of the world and I have no idea what is going on. But we have been hearing claims of columns of Russian armored vehicles entering Ukraine every couple days for the past month. I have yet to see a photograph. In this day and age this shouldn't be too difficult. That is the least we should expect from a newspaper that is supposed to be important (and serious?).
Ukraine, for one, welcomes their new/old Russian overlords. Well...not so much as welcomes as runs like hell to avoid being slaughtered because there is no way anyone stands up the Russians like they are some Middle East country acting tough.
http://www.vox.com/2014/8/27/6...
As someone else put it, Putin is aspiring to be a Dune character. Or more prosaically, he's learned a lot from watching US corporations and the US government manipulate the news cycle. Do something that will outrage the public, wait for the new furor, pull back a little, wait for the news to move on to some other subject, and try again.
This Space Intentionally Left Blank
Comrade Putin's long-term intention is to reclaim the old Russian/Soviet empire as a popularity move to mask the economic rape of the country by the Chekists and their cronies.
It has the secondary effect of securing his western flank, before he can focus on Siberia. Despite the current Moscow-Peking love fest, Russia is very paranoid about Chinese actions and intentions in the Far East.
In any event, what is the West going to do except piss themselves in a sanctimonious fit of faux outrage? Do you think any sane leader is going to risk poking the thermonuclear bear over what is essentially a border dispute?
The US and western EU really need to stay out of this. We are going to regret any military involvement. Now, if they invade Poland or another NATO nation, then yes, but the Balkanised states are basically Russian anyway -- and none of them save Estonia are doing well.
In a more conventional war typically the targeted nation's shipping is seized, both flagged vessels and vessels under other flags owned by those from that nation.
If I remember right, there's a treaty in place that was the result of Ukraine's voluntary handover of its nuclear weapons where it was supposed to receive defense. I'm curious to see if it'll be invoked.
Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
There is no good solution to any of this, both governments will be pushing to the end. Ukrainian government doesn't want to lose a large chunk of territory and Russian government doesn't want to let go now, since the loss will be seen as weakness and there is a huge interest in controlling the gas supplying line to Europe. Putin's reaction to Ukraine attempts to become part of NATO was going to be met with this type of violent reaction from Putin, who doesn't want to see NATO missile launchers even closer to the western border. AFAIC the American hands are all over this one, trying hard to create yet another distraction from its failing economy. Putin was easy to manipulate to start the war, but how do you end this war? A war with Russia can turn nuclear, so that is why there are no Americans or British or German or Canadian or other visible troops there yet.
Putin has a war now that everybody understands Russia is leading, but at the same time it is not an openly declared war, you can say it is an open secret war. Putin cannot win against the West but West doesn't want to fight a real shooting war with Russia either.
Stalemate. The only losers are the people who are forced into it on all sides, be it death due to bombing or bullets or sickness or be it economic sanctions (which by the way are not declared against 'others', economic sanctions are declared against your own. So economic sanctions imposed by Putin 'against West' are actually economic sanctions by Putin against Russians, it is just that the propaganda is strong, economic education and understanding is low and there is a tribal thing going on there as well).
USA provoked another conflict that may not end and definitely will not end well, good job. Putin is throwing fresh meat into the meat grinder, good job. Ukrainians are stuck between these two, like so many others before it, too bad.
AFAIC the only quick way out of this is for Putin to be assassinated or for Ukraine to give up and for the West to fuck off. All of these are unfortunate, but the alternatives do include a possibility of a nuclear war.
You can't handle the truth.
Actually, the handover of USSR's stockpile of nuclear weapons in the Ukraine wasn't in exchange for defense, but rather in exchange for a promise from Russia that Russia will never use its military weapons to attack or intimidate the Ukraine. (See the Budapest Memorandum, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B... )
Clearly, that agreement has been broken by Russia. Of course, I doubt any powers are going to try to exacerbate the situation by either providing the Ukraine with nuclear weapons or suggesting that Ukraine should acquire nuclear weapons, but based on my understanding of the Budapest Memorandum, Ukraine is well within its rights to do so now that Russia has breached the agreement.
My postings are informational and does not constitute legal advice. Act on it at your risk.
Unfortunately for those living there a lack of control of Ukraine is an existential threat to Russia, and it always has been. This is Putin and his faction basically saying "Bring it Europe/US. What are you going to do?" They're gambling that Ukrainian sovereignty is less important to the US and Europe than getting in a shooting war with Russia, and quite frankly they're probably right.
No shooting is necessary for NATO itself. They just need to supply Ukraine with advanced weaponry. It worked in Afghanistan in the 1980s, a few stingers missile systems and all of a sudden Russia air power become impotent and Russian ground forces once again became highly vulnerable to attack. Leading to Russia's retreat. And that was in Soviet days when Russia had a far more capable military.
Some advanced western anti-armor rockets in the hands of Ukrainian troops could make a huge difference compared to the old Soviet leftover RPGs and such they currently have.
They really won't care as much as you would hope. Their history of shrugging things off like this while flipping us the bird is almost as long as their history of making some less-than-legal exchanges of their old military gear for cash to damn-near anyone willing to do so.
Cut Israel off!
This is something we saw coming, at least since the incident with Crimea. What plans were made for this? Or are they all pretending to be surprised?
Don't waste your vote! Vote for whoever you want, unless you live in a swing state it won't matter anyways
The source of this claim is the Ukrainian government, which has just suffered a setback in their campaign against the rebels. I would take their statements with a huge dose of suspicion right now, they are desperate and will say anything to try to swing opinion in their favor.
Remember during the fist Gulf War how the tearful Kuwait woman claimed that Iraqi soldiers had invaded a hospital and killed babies? A bunch of lies.
Remember how in the Second Gulf War we invaded because Saddam had WMD? Again, a bunch of lies.
Keep you pants on, let this play out, don't be so quick to believe everything you are told, consider the source, don't be a sucker every time.
Several years ago Russia invided Georgia. But no one cared. Russia now invided Ukraine and world's answer is only few sanctions. There was Chechnia also if you remmember.. So f*ck you world, you all who is deaf, dumb and blind when this happens, you will see Russian boot on your ass soon.
On the contrary, anything that will result in some fun scenarios for Civilization V is news for nerds.
Given that all our leaders in both the west and Russia are pathological liars, I'm always interested to find the other side of the story. Not that our media makes it easy.
This slashdot story reports what's happening as fact. But as far as I can tell what we have is actually only quotes from Kiev, the same people who have been claiming that Russia was invading for weeks. The same people who claimed that a convoy of aid was actually full of soldiers and military equipment, even after it was repeatedly spot checked by journalists and found to contain exactly what Russia claimed it did (food and aid). This is coming just days after Poroshenko dissolved his Parliament, there were apparently rising protests against conscription into the Ukrainian army, and the separatists were able to make progress.
Just to make things even more complicated: simultaneous with the claim that Russian troops are crossing into Ukraine, RT is claiming that Ukrainian troops crossed into Russia, in order to defect, and the Ukranian government admits this.
This comment on the Guardian story (which incidentally is much less biased than this Slashdot article and presents this as an accusation by Kiev) is what got me to look for these stories and I think interesting enough to quote in full:
And for good measure, Ukraine should "sell" its ownership in the Ukrainian section of the gas pipeline to a Nato country and then shut off the flow of gas.
Cutting off the flow of gas would hurt Europe a lot more than it would hurt Russia at this point. Entering the winter with your largest gas supplier no longer providing you with the gas that you use for heating would suck. And as gas is fungible, it doesn't matter to Russia if we stop buying it from them, unless everyone else stops buying it from them - if China doesn't join in with the boycott then it just means that they'll be buying more has from Russia because the price of everyone else's gas will go up.
I am TheRaven on Soylent News
Good luck with that in Europe, most of the countries there are more or less dependent on Russian natural gas exports.
Winter is coming...
Finally they will be able to find those WMDs that the Ukranians are hiding!
Appeasement only makes the aggressor more aggressive.
Huh? Wait, we can...
Germany? Austria? Turkey? Saddle up and regain your empire from last century, the sale has begun!
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Yea, the rights of the Ukrainian people to choose their government be damned, this is Russian imperialism at stake here.. (sarcasm off)
"File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
Better be careful what you wish for. If the rest of the world applied that standard to the USA and UK they'd have nobody to buy their bonds at all. You don't want China deciding to flex their economic muscles by playing with the bond market next time America invades some random country, do you?
This Russian move represents a serious deterioration of the world unity as we knew it, and is likely to affect most of us, directly or indirectly, and more or less severely. Yes I want to read here the various opinions on this crucial topic, moderated the /. way.
Slashdot, fix the reply notifications... You won't get away with it...
If you actually check into these articles, you'll notice that perspective is covered. Russia's current official stance is that these are only rumors and that those tanks could have been sold to the separatists. Sure, fair enough, but the story doesn't really hold up with the other evidence. Russian soldiers have been captured inside Ukraine, and tens of thousands of Russian soldiers, including tanks and other high-tech weaponry, have been tracked on satellite having traveled from inner Russia to the Ukraine border.
But, hey, who needs things like "facts" when you can just dispel anything you disagree with as "propaganda."
Yea, and we should close all our McDonald's operations too....
"File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
What, you didn't see the news this morning?
HEADLINE: Russia Armor *POURS* Across the Border Into Ukraine!!! ...
PHOTO: OMFG, A SHITLOAD OF TANKS AND GUNS LINED UP ON THE HIGHWAY!!!
tiny, grey caption: btw, these are Ukrainian
Or, maybe our oligarchs will stop trying to take over the Ukraine from their oligarchs and let the Russian people sort things out for themselves.
Wouldn't it have been nice to spend the $4T we spent in iraq on education, healthcare, and research in renewables and energy efficiency instead of bombs?
No go.
Europe is quite dependent on Russian gas and oil. You'll be hard pressed to convince Europe that it should do without. And now take a wild guess where more of that money is located...
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Once you appear weak, and unwilling to stand for your "red lines", your competition simply won't take you seriously anymore.
Nothing Obama (or the international community for that matter) is willing to do will aver Russia from its course. At this point, the questions to be settled will be around just how much of Ukraine manages to stay independent at all.
While people may have been all pissy about Bush, unilateral wars, and Team America World Police, the fact of the matter is that it was better than the alternative. "America, Fuck Yeah" sure looks better than "America, Fuck No" at this point.
People keep repeating this but I don't think it's true.
It will be difficult in the short term but the consequences of being under Russia (Or rather the robber barons that control the failed state that carries the name Russia) are becoming too big to ignore.
China and Russia really are not friends. China's not stupid. They don't want to be dependent on them either.
If Russia really is invading Ukraine they should be in Kiev in a few days. And there will be nothing the U.S/E.U/NATO. can do short of a full nuclear strike on Russia.
So just wait a few days. If by then Russian tanks are in Kiev, or if there is a thermonuclar war and we are all dead, we then can conclude this story was true.
If not, it is a lie, just like all the other stories about Russian invasion since the beginning of the civil war in Ukraine turned out to be.
Truth is probably the Russians are non-officially helping the rebels with weapons and "volunteers", just like the U.S/E.U/NATO are unofficially helping Kiev with weapons and mercenaries.
Better be careful what you wish for. If the rest of the world applied that standard to the USA and UK they'd have nobody to buy their bonds at all. You don't want China deciding to flex their economic muscles by playing with the bond market next time America invades some random country, do you?
Neither the US nor the UK have tried to conquer anyone in the past century or so. Russia has already annexed part of the Ukraine, and is not trying to conquer the rest.
You don't want China deciding to flex their economic muscles by playing with the bond market next time America invades some random country, do you?
Oh, I don't know. Maybe that would be a nice object less as to why it's not healthy to be buried in so much debt. Or to be policing the entire damned world on our own dime, for that matter.
Irony: Agile development has too much intertia to be abandoned now.
Yeah, supplying weapons and lunatics crazy enough to fight our enemy has worked so well in Afghanistan, let's do that again!
Ukrainians are a modern, western, civilized people. Arming them is quite different than arming religious fanatics looking to recreate the middle ages.
And besides, it did work. The Russian military suffered over 14,000 killed in Afghanistan and over 53,000 wounded. The Russians experienced actual battlefield military defeat. Not the political defeat the US is experiencing.
The west must go all out on sanctions. Gonna happen sooner or later.. and later is always bad.
did you forget to take your meds?
Wat?
I assume from your absurd statement that you consider invading Afghanistan and Iraq, then replacing their governments, is not "conquering"? Because ..... ? Because they installed a new government and then left, sorta, except they still routinely fly drones and air-strike anyone in those countries they see fit, which no truly independent country would tolerate.
Even if you use such a stupid definition of "conquer", you're attacking a straw man. I said invade, not conquer. It's indisputable that America has routinely invaded countries far away from their own borders over and over again. Any regime that boils down to "those who use military force against others gets sanctioned" would result in America being entirely cut off from the world economy for years. That clearly won't happen so this is just another case of American (and to some extent European) hypocrisy at work. Either do it consistently or don't do it at all. Preferably not at all - sanctions are based on the idea that punishing huge swathes of ordinary citizens on both sides will somehow bring about political change. How many people really believe the people are in charge of their governments foreign policies in countries like the USA?
what we have is actually only quotes from Kiev
The BBC and many other outlets have published NATO confirmations that at least 1000 Russian soldiers have entered Ukraine in this invasion. This directly contradicts your ludicrous claim, but you already knew that.
"Politicians and diapers must be changed often, and for the same reason."
Since when did slashdot become a mouthpiece for Washington?
Since Snowden became a mouthpiece for Putin and Russia perhaps?
If WW3 breaks out, then it will matter greatly to SlashDot readers. Ever heard of the draft?
"File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
/. can by some margin not become a mouthpiece for anything but what the people commenting on it want. Yes, you can tack a propaganda story to the front page. But be prepared to have it shred to pieces before long.
And since people (at least the people I know&care about) read /. for the comments rather than the stories itself, any kind of astroturfing or propaganda usually backfires VERY badly VERY quickly.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
That is what is really going on.
-- I ignore anonymous replies to my comments and postings.
Putin asked Russian parliament to withdraw its authorization of use of military forces on Ukrainian territory. And the parliament accommodated the request. So legally, there is no Russian troops in Ukraine. These must all be "self-defense" units. Oh, and if anyone in the UN believes that, I would be happy to show them a bridge that they can buy about 2-3 miles south of the UN building.
Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
As opposed to every single Russian media outlet being a Putin propaganda outlet, effectively manipulating an entire nation?
"I have downloaded hundreds and hundreds of records, why would I care if somebody downloads ours?" Robin Pecknold
How dare they? This is a dangerous precedent
Imagine if this led to another country invading countries like Iraq or Afghanistan, or launching drone strikes in Pakistan or Yemen.
The west would immediately stand up to this I would think and immediately impose sanctions on any country that would do this.
All countries have propaganda, agendas, motives , and all the other pieces that come with geo-politics. None of which belong on Slash-dot, IMO
What the fuck are you talking about? This myth that Russia keeps trying to push that there are Nazis in Ukraine is only there to deflect Russian attention away from the fact that Putin's policies mirror Hitler's policies almost to the letter. Ukrainian President was elected by 53% of the vote after overthrowing the former President who was clearly a Russian puppet. Russia is taking by force what it couldn't take through bribes.
Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
As far as Russia is concerned, it doesn't recognize the legitimacy of the Ukrainian government because of the coup, so adherence to a non-binding memorandum is a non-starter.
http://rt.com/news/183356-russ...
Who is to believe?
Facts are facts. And stop spreading the Russian National Socialist propaganda.
Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
Have gnu, will travel.
Ukraine is well within its rights to do so now that Russia has breached the agreement.
I'm sure that in 1985, plutonium is available in every corner drugstore, but in 2014, it's a little hard to come by.
Because as a sane person your first instinct should be not to go to war. How sure are you of the situation in that country? Do you trust your information sources? How often can you be manipulated into supporting a war with disinformation before you stop being so enthusiastic about sending people to kill and get killed.
Russia and China just signed a big longterm gas and oil deal. Any amounts over that, in a scenario where Russia doesn't have other buyers, and China would be able to push the price down as far as they wanted; barely over cost.
Also, China is 9th in the world in natural gas production, and they don't use much; only 5% of their energy usage in 2012.
And they've been working hard to diversify their energy supply. They're not going to stop buying from the countries they just signed trade agreements with. Those are real victories much bigger than a short-term discount. They're also not going to convert factories to a new fuel source just to be supplied by Russia, because Russia is not an honest player; everybody knows, especially the Chinese, that they will raise your prices if you don't act like their puppet. China doesn't like being told what to do. At. All.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N...
And as gas is fungible, it doesn't matter to Russia if we stop buying it from them
And as gas is fungible, Europe could just buy from someone other than Russia, right? ... Right?
Chuuch. Preach. Tabernacle.
We haven't, though. What country did we annex again? Oh, right. They all still have both political sovereignty, and also control of their legal borders. Iraq, not annexed. Grenada, not annexed. Vietnam, not annexed. Korea, not annexed. Germany, not annexed. Japan, not annexed. Panama, not annexed and we gave the canal back early. Italy, not annexed. Afghanistan, we wouldn't take it if they annexed themselves for us! Lebanon, not annexed. Libya, not annexed.
Russia doing this is the first time this has been done since the WWII-era. This is a major thing, and Russia has to lose; they have to give back the territory, or they will be economically isolated. They'll be like North Korea in 30 years unless they change course. What happens when the US and European domestic auto markets are all running electric, and Europe has enough wave and wind power to cover their winter heating? Russia's only "energy market" will be recycling their nukes to sell as fuel to France.
Everyone keeps waving around this "US debt is bad" thing like they understand how national economies work. Guess what currency the US debt is issued in? And who prints that currency?
The Obama Administration has both thumbs shoved up their collective asses while simultaneously wringing their hands in an impotent fashion (true talent folks!)
Obama: No! We Can't!
Chas - The one, the only.
THANK GOD!!!
Civ III. Civ V doesn't permit military stacks of death.
Given the past history of statements alleging Russian involvement turning out to be American lies, or lies by the Ukranian regime, I think I'll wait and se before accepting anything that a regime that came to power amidst an undemocratic coup says.
Well, for the US an open conflict started by China in our bond market, that would naturally leave them frozen out of it. They enjoy buying our bonds, so they'd be cutting their own nose. And as the largest bond holder, they'd be destroying their own investments. Our continued bilateral economic friendliness is a basic requirement for China to get any return on those investments.
When they're the biggest bond holder, attacking the market would risk losing their investment, and for the US, our risk is that we would have to write off a bunch of debt. We'd come out ahead in the long term; they could trash our federal budget for a couple years, but most of the US economy is private and independent of the government.
Also, in the short term the dollar would drop, and China would have increased costs in keeping their currency pegged low against. Likely it would rise. That would lower the value of their giant pot of cash, which would be growing quickly without bond purchases. They would be stuck with shrinking liquid assets where they used to have an increasing investment portfolio.
So, no. The whole situation is an object lesson in not buying somebody's debt if you want them to be your enemy; you'll only be able to afford them as friends. China may not be our "best" friend, but their economic friendliness runs deep. Trillions of dollars deep.
What you say is true but someone truly objective doesn't only say the truths that suit them and omit the rest. Ukraine was a democratic (albeit corrupt) country right up to the moment the US helped violently overthrow a pro-Russian government. US media constantly leaving out that "minor" point only further illustrates that there is very real propaganda in US as well. Media has become so centralized in the US that they are now basically all in bed with US government (also see invasion of Iraq for non-existent WMDs). When news starts to be about going "rah rah " rather than reporting objectively on situations-- it ceases to be news and becomes nationalist propaganda.
If WW3 breaks out, then it will matter greatly to SlashDot readers. Ever heard of the draft?
God damn, you are one stupid son of a bitch.
World War 3 will last a few minutes. There won't be a draft or any reason for
a draft.
The Russian Federation is about 20 years old. It is not Russia. It's a new country which has just chosen a new path for itself. If you live in Russia, I am sorry. You have just become a citizen of Hitler's wet dream.
Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
It's silly to expect sanctions to accomplish much.
After WWII, the US should have had Patton march east and take care of uncle Stalin.
There was a second chance much more recently to decisively deal with the Russian problem. A bit less than ten years ago, this paper http://belfercenter.ksg.harvar... identified the US as having achieved nuclear primacy (a shorter version can be found printed in Foreign Affairs of that year). It would have been possible at the time for the US to get away with a preemptive nuclear strike against Russia. With most silos and mobile launchers on Russian territory located, a counterforce preemptive nuclear attack by the US would have resulted in the only real retaliation to be from submarine launches, which would have been few enough not to overwhelm missile defense.
The paper generated controversy and there were counterpoints from other academics and some in the military, but there was also a lot of support expressed. In any case, it's at least plausible that the US could have taken the first shot and saved an order of magnitude more pain, suffering, and deaths in the future than it would have generated. No doubt Russia's military build-up in the last decade takes this scenario out of the realm of possibility, and given the evil the russkies are doing and the tons more they've yet to perpetrate, it's a damn shame.
I expect to be modded down, as many here won't understand a sentiment generated by having survived the Soviet occupation of Eastern Europe. No, things haven't changed. The bear's beastly character is immutable, a fundamental aspect of it that can't be tamed or cured by diplomacy, education, or civilization.
"Politicians and diapers must be changed often, and for the same reason."
The question is who is the aggressor here? Lets not forget the US helped violently overthrow a pro-Russian Ukrainan government leading up to this situation.
Media slant - beware. Russians will likely tell you that this is because the humanitarian aid convoy they sent got attacked. Presumably, they are sending more supplies and defending them this time.
Which version is true? Probably the truth is somewhere in the middle. Both sides use propaganda in any confrontation - not just "the bad guys".
I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
That's sort of like saying the Soviet's didn't invade anywhere during the cold war. They just supported puppet governments and militias in their place, as did America (hence Osama bin Laden being a former employee of the CIA).
You can't claim that America deciding unilaterally to engage in "regime change" to use the delightful term is respecting political sovereignty. What happens is the USA evaluates a government and if it's not one they like, sometimes they remove it by force and replace it with a new one they like better. Said country has "control of their borders" only if you ignore that the US military operates within those borders at will.
Is this a real invasion this time, or just another made-up fake invasion, like last time?
Last I heard, it sounded like the "Ukrainian separatist's" (why is that in quotes?) had the remnants of the Ukrainian army on the run, so it's probably a good time for another propaganda wave.
They said you can borrow their foreign policy, free of charge. Just call them back when you're done with this round of golf.
"Now, I doubt any of you would prefer a rolled up newspaper as a weapon against a dictator or a criminal intruder."
Amusing as it may be to contemplate some kind of strange anachronistic WW3 playing out like WW2 with gigantic armies of conscripts slugging it out, it AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN. Not that way. Nobody could afford to support that kind of effort, nor is the scenario stable. Prohibitive economics aside, long before the world could logistically even begin to mobilize, train and equip tens of millions of soldiers, someone would set off some nukes and civilization would become an historical oddity.
Europe should not be boycotting Russia. They should enter into an open military conflict. If they don't, Russia will steam roll over them. Russia has very clearly demonstrated that they will take by force what they can't take through bribery. Who says they would stop in Eastern Europe this time? The only reason they stopped in Eastern Europe last time was the Allied armies in the West. If this aggression is not checked, Hitler's war will look like a dress rehearsal compared to what Russia is about to pull off.
Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
They'll just run on solar and wind power. Or so I've been told by greenies on /.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Better be careful what you wish for. If the rest of the world applied that standard to the USA and UK they'd have nobody to buy their bonds at all. You don't want China deciding to flex their economic muscles by playing with the bond market next time America invades some random country, do you?
Let them. It would have minimal effect:
http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/03/15/chinas-water-pistol/
Seriously, it's a non-issue. At most they hold less than 10%, and the Fed could simply do some more QE to offset anything. Given where interest rates are (~0%), they'd hardly climb either (long- or short-term).
FYI the largest US bond holder is the SS trust fund, not China.
That said the US bonds are the good part of China's bank reserves. Think about that. US bonds are the good part vs loans to central committee members children that cannot be called and are not being paid.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Ukraine has the right to use any and all means necessary to protect itself from this unprovoked aggression by Russia.
Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
The existence of Russian nuclear weapons is, in itself, a threat to use them.
Facts are indeed facts, unless they are conveniently omitted by western media. Then they become "putin's propaganda". I bet CNN never reported about this fact, or that nationalist politicians gained seats in the parliament.
Recent Ukrainian events summed up for those that care:
1954 Crimea was given as a "Gift" to Ukraine by Russia/USSR and Nikita Khrushchev (an ethnic Ukrainian) as a symbolic gesture commemorating the 300th anniversary of Crimea becoming part of the Russian empire.
1991 Ukraine voted overwhelmingly for independence from Russia
1994 Ukraine signed a treaty with Russia and the USA to disarm its nuclear arsenal in return for a treaty that guaranteed Russia and USA would come to their aid if they were ever invaded.
2010 Viktor Fedorovych Yanukovych was elected president. He had been a minister of an eastern Ukrainian province. The US and Europe had supported his opponent, and Russia had supported him. Likely both sides illegally influenced the election with money and espionage. In the following years, there is little doubt he ran the country in the ground, he was a terrible president.
2014 The Ukrainian parliament voted overwhelmingly to remove him from the presidential office. A poll in April showed his approval rating at 5% This event was likely assisted by the US and Europe and was basically a Coup de'etat. Russia freaked out and had Russian agents already in place in Ukraine start stiring up violent unrest. They've basically been in a state of civil war since. Russia is providing troops and hardware, the west seem a little more reluctant to provide direct support.
Russias primary goals are to keep the strategic port in the black sea open and prevent Ukraine from joining the EU.
That's because you're a naïve child, and don't realize that many cities in Europe are very close to being conquered already.
USA's invasion of Afghanistan was in direct response to an attack that was largely planned & executed from there. The point is, the US attempted to return the Afghan government back to the people. Of course that wouldn't have been required if Russia didn't attempt to take them back in the 80's. At the time, they had a relatively free and prosperous society.
As for Iraq, you've got more to stand on. Personally, I'm under the impression that that invasion was the plan the moment Bush Jr. took office. Hussein did attempt to assassinate his father. Still, the US has no intention of building an empire with the rest of the world. We've proven that time and time again. Germany, Japan, Cuba. We may get bases in their countries, and the influence that that brings, but that's it.
Ukraine has one of the most advanced civil nuclear capabilities in the world...
I'm cool with politics posts if they have a link to science or technology, but this doesn't. At all. News for nerds people, news for nerds...
You realize Russia the most Fascist government that exists right now? So that would make the Russians the Nazis.
Wow that is some pretty powerful Russian propaganda you have been drinking there. Calling normal peaceful Ukranians "fascists"? Check. Calling it a "violent overthrow" despite it not being one? Check. Calling the government "ultra nationalist"? Check. Blaming the US despite them having nothing to do with anything? Check. Russians have a "right to use force"? Check.
Thanks for popping in Putin, but your deluded views aren't welcome here.
Phillip.
Property for sale in Nice, France
And I believe Britain and Mexico has some lost territories in the Americas they might be interested in getting back as well... and Russia might regret selling Alaska - now that the icecaps are melting, opening the northern passages, full control of the Bering strait might be more important than before.
Actually there are minor fascist elements in Ukraine. And in Russia. And in the US. And every other place in the world.
They certainly aren't controlling any of those countries though, or any cuntries of much consequence.
So.. assuming it is "true" (and if you take at face value anything Ukraine or Russia says you are an idiot) and we apply your idea of penalties, are you also willing to apply those to western nations (ie, US, UK, France, etc...) who have use air assets to bomb other countries, sent special forces into another country (invasion!), sent military "advisors" to help rebels/"freedom fighters", etc? Or shall we just ignore the hypocrisy of it all?
Can only imagine if Ukraine were some country bordering on the US/UK/France/Germany and a similar unstable political situation existed which was at least in part fostered by Russian political meddling (as opposed to Western in Ukraine). The tanks and planes would have rolled the border long ago.
We were busy having our asses kicked by a couple of towel-heads in a foxhole. The multi-trillion dollar juggernaut of the US Military was having it's head handed to them by some IEDs and a few snipers. We couldn't fight a guerilla war with all that cold-war training, and it was already stressing our military.
Furthermore, you're missing the entire point of 10 years ago. There was no PROFIT in nuclear striking Russia. Dick Cheney wasn't interested in attacking anyone he couldn't steal money from on both sides, that's why North Korea was ignored, and Iraq was invaded.
Striking Russia wouldn't do anything except isolate the US from the rest of the world, as we'd be responsible for a Billion deaths, and we'd be spending all our time even now defending ourselves from every other country on Earth, and we'd be starving and bankrupt because China would have cut us off.
If telephones are outlawed, then only outlaws will have telephones.
Russia has been invading for weeks...
It's a shame /. doesn't have a way of allowing Anonymous comments but the ability to kill them off based on an IP. Then I could read this thread without all the spam from the Russian troll above.
Phillip.
Property for sale in Nice, France
Look, it's not just the US who supported change in Ukraine - noone in Europe likes the Russians except perhaps a few Serbs, really, noone, this is not Russia vs USA, Russia have _no_ allies, not even among former Soviet states in central Asia, who frankly did quite a lot of the war effort on Russia's behalf in Soviet times. This is Russia vs the rest of the world. Russia has not been in war on their own since tzar times.
Yes about the centralization of media but where does this come into actual decision making? Joe Schmo and his friends have little to no impact if they aren't in the top tiers of government or military. The fact is that those decision are done with or without the populations backing. I think the leaders of the world powers has far more impact on what decision will be taken than the civilian following bogus news.
China isn't going to be doing anything. They're economy is very much dependent on the US and it's butt buddies.
It hasn't. This latest invasion by Russia is of interest to all free countries in the world. Putin has provoked that start of WW3, and we can forget for now this "economic crisis" which pales into insignificance compared to this Russian aggression. And to get ourselves completely off Russian gas is going to need some new tech otherwise we are going to suffer a lot of economic pain.
Phillip.
Property for sale in Nice, France
While I agree with you. How many people really believe the people in the USA are really in charge of their government and it's foreign policy.
Russians are being paid to flood the site with propaganda. Unfortunately it doesn't make any sense so you can't argue with it. You just have to sift through the crap to find the real comments.
Phillip.
Property for sale in Nice, France
By standing against Russia, you are standing with Nazis.
Yes, indeed. It's *terrible* that the Ukrainians invaded and intentionally destabilised and annexed parts of Russia. *cough*
And Vladimir Putin's incursion into Ukraine to "protect" ethnic Russians is absolutely *nothing* like Adolf Hitler's invasion of the "Sudetenland" under the pretext of protecting ethnic Germans.
No, it's those big, bad Ukrainians that are the Nazis here!
In 1939 the west thought Hitler would stop in Czech Republic...
In 2008 the West thought Putin would stop in Georgia...
No, the current regime of Russia is a text book Nationalist Socialist regime. Russia is currently a text-book Nazi state. So the factions in Russia which are Nazi are not minor. They are the government.
Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
That's a rather one-sided view of what happened. Yes, the Soviet Union did invade Afghanistan as part of pushing its global ideology, much like the USA invaded Vietnam. But the stone age state of Afghanistan at the time of the US invasion in 2001 was a direct result of America supporting religious fanatics in a proxy war, the mujahideen, who after the war ended and the Soviet's were defeated went on to become the Taliban. That's why bin Laden is so famously a former ally of the US.
The USA is not only building an empire but doing so in plain sight of everyone. To quote Putin directly:
This principle is most clearly visible in two acts. One is that the sanctions on Iran are built as a "you're with us or against us" model. Any country that is seen by America to be "undermining" the sanctions i.e. not joining in is itself sanctioned. And the second act is again sanctions based: every financial institution in the world is being taken over by Washington via a system of recursive ("viral" if you like) sanctions that require banks to obey the USA even if that would contradict local laws. The goal is to collect tax from American's abroad. It's called FATCA and it's resulted in many, many nations having to repeal their own privacy laws, in order to allow banks to become agents of the US Government. They were given no choice in the matter.
So the USA has found ways of forcing people in countries all over the world to: (a) engage in economic warfare against America's enemies and (b) pay taxes directly to America, all regardless of what the local government wants or how the local people vote.
Being able to conscript people to their fights and force payment of taxes is the very foundation of empire itself.
Don't forget that before this whole mess, the Ukrainian president was going to the EU hat in hand asking for 15 Billion Euros to pay off debts paid to Russia and to fix its infrastructure. Speaking of which, their infrastructure is in complete shambles. When Russia first took Crimea a couple days later the Russian minister of fiance was bitching about how much is was going to cost to fix Crimea (something like 15 Billion over 3 years).
So by all means, if Russia wants to take over Ukraine an incur the expense of actually fixing Ukraine... excellent, I suspect very quickly the whole thing will be a pyrrhic victory.
Also, while they're expending their military forces trying to keep the Ukrainians from engaging in an insurgency against them, we're going to keep putting the screws to them on the global market, causing their currency to go into an inflationary spiral.
As of right now, the Europeans have been hesitant about criticizing Russia too heavy because of fears about their gas supply. However, I can't imagine the Europeans will say nothing if Russia rolls in the tanks. Possibly we'll start shipping NG to the Europeans to further undercut the Russians? Who knows.
However, now that Russia has banned food imports from the EU and the US. How long before the standard of living starts spiraling downwards? I don't imagine that Putin would starve his own people, but who knows?
Yes Francis, the world has gone crazy.
In contrast to that, the majority of Germans regrets that their country was a totalitarian monster 70-80 years ago. Regardless of the fact that Hitler's Germany was the single strongest country of that time and was undoubtedly feared.
Our response at this point amounts to saying "tut tut" really seriously. Meanwhile the Russians and east Ukrainians may be humming "kto pre dyot na Russ budyet na-smyert bit". The time to do something to defend countries like this is well before anyone starts
thinking about invasion. Also, national borders don't always reflect reality on the ground too well, so getting involved as a third
party buttinsky deserves a great deal of thought and restraint. If someone in the administration wants to go over and fight,
I'd say hand them guns and get them transportation. Let the rest of us then be left alone about it. If Mr. Obama wants to fight,
he too could go over with a rifle or machine gun or something - maybe you give him a tank - but let those who want to stir up war risk their personal skins, not those of anyone else.
The current crop in D.C. have managed to create a big enough mess in Iraq, Syria, and to some extent Afghanistan already, and need to show they can fix that before they go wanting to mess around in some other conflict.
Hurghada - odprawa paszportowa:
-Nationality?
--Russian
-Occupation?
--No, just visiting.
(from a friend in Poland.)
I clearly meant the largest holder that isn't... ourselves. In the context of trade wars and international relations, it should be assumed that the external parts are being discussed.
Loans to them don't matter, because the debt is mostly one-way, China buying US bonds. A tiny bit of debt in the other way can be subtracted off the top and ignored. Doesn't matter who it is to or the details, because it is a tiny, tiny bit.
It's long past time for France and Germany to put their big boy pants on and remind Vlad Europe has more than enough manpower and toys to counter Russia without American help. Most of the Russian forces are still conscripts. They won't stand behind him when the shit gets real.
It is of some interest that Hitler's treatment of the Jews was said to have been copied from the American treatment of the Indians. This is apart from the diseases, which were not policy. If you were an Indian your testimony got ignored in any judicial proceedings, where any conflicting testimony was believed; treaties with you were ignored or torn up at the whim of the USG (recall Andrew Jackson's remarks re Yazoo and the taking of land from the Cherokee and others in Georgia, that Mr. Marshall (SCOTUS chief justice) did not have any military divisions, when he ordered the military to expel the Indians, never mind the court order finding this illegal). Your property could be and was taken any time someone got into a conflict with you. (This happened with Indians who had turned farmers along the white lines in the midwest; it was not a matter of their insisting on a hunter/gatherer lifestyle).
The US did not have gas chambers, but bullets and starvation did a pretty good job. Now, this did get started with Columbus (remember the Arawak who befriended him and got enslaved for their reward, on his second voyage), so is not a US thing. Point is that horrible treatment
of people by those in power is drearily common.
The U.S hasn't been invaded or attacked since WW 2, yet have been murdering and killing in many parts of the world for over 50 years, so what's with the pointy-fingers when Russia mind their back yard?
So you are on your way to an enlistment office?
If they wish to engage to aggression against other country's sovereignty, they should do it without the rest of the world helping fund them.
EU countries pay Putin billions of dollars for gas (some of them are close to 100% dependent on Russian gas). The only kind of sanctions that would really harm Putin would be reducing gas imports. It's VERY hard to do in a short time and many EU countries event don't try to do that.
In other news, the Soviet Union and the German Reich signed a long term - 10 years, no less - pact of non-aggression... And one of the participants has been quoted as saying that agreements were only were to honoured as long as they were useful, and were to be disregarded at any point thereafter.
Frankly speaking, any mentioning of China and Russia "cooperating" long term is just ludicrous. You couldn't find a better contemporary match for the third Reich and the Soviet Union than Russia and China.
I'm painfully aware of my own country's misdeeds in the past re: land grabs. But the pattern is clear and we must not forget the lesson: A bully like Hitler in 1938, or Putin in 2014, only has his appetite increased by eating. The West can stop Putin now at a small cost, or deal with him in a few years at a staggering cost. The Russian people deserve better than what will happen to them eventually under Putin's direction. Berlin 1945 == Moscow 2020. For the sake of ordinary Russians, if no one else, Putin's gang must be checked *hard* in their attempts to eat Ukraine piece by piece.
Fomer Soviet states and some European countries in a bag. Each one looks like a potato chip. Putin has Ukraine half way in his mouth. Caption. "I'm only going to eat one".
For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
From the Twitter archives:
POTUS nails Mitt for saying Russia our #1 geostrategic threat. "The 1980's called. They want their foreign policy back." Bam!
-- Paul Begala (@PaulBegala) October 23, 2012
And for good measure, Ukraine should "sell" its ownership in the Ukrainian section of the gas pipeline to a Nato country and then shut off the flow of gas.
Cutting off the flow of gas would hurt Europe a lot more than it would hurt Russia at this point. Entering the winter with your largest gas supplier no longer providing you with the gas that you use for heating would suck. And as gas is fungible, it doesn't matter to Russia if we stop buying it from them, unless everyone else stops buying it from them - if China doesn't join in with the boycott then it just means that they'll be buying more has from Russia because the price of everyone else's gas will go up.
No Russian economy depends on this income, it make up a significant part of their entire national GDP, meanwhile Europe has been finding other alternative sources of energy in case Russia would cut of the supply again as they did after the sanction put on them for the invasion of Georgia. And the gas is not fungible, it would take over a year to build new pipelines to other countries, especially China is a long long way away from the gas going to Europe. Russia would be completely and utterly fucked without the gas, in Europe it would just hurt the home owner who has invested in natural gas heating to save money, they would not be saving money anymore.
Yeah, that's right mods, label that as funny.
A quick solution to this problem is for the USA to ship a pallet of nukes to Ukraine. Or even just the fissionable material. Even on the sly.
Ukraine would announce it's a nuclear power again and would detonate a bomb on it's soil between the currently contested cities as a giant "BACK OFF BITCH" to Russia.
Then it's Russia's move.
Sane first world nations don't invade first world nations. It's time to remind people of why.
Every school student has a phone with camera now.
And what?
No photo of russian tanks, some strange photos of military trucks. That's all.
Did the news for get that Russia invaded Ukraine months ago, and is still actively occupying part of the country? Nothing happened then. We couldn't even get decent sanctions together. The worst thing we can do is get involved, because the west never finishes anything. We'll pop in for some support, rally up their population and then leave them with their asses in the wind. None of that matters, because we aren't going to do a damn thing. World powers don't fight world powers anymore, it sends a bad message to smaller nations.
X
Is that when you buy US Treasuries, you don't actually get anything. They don't send you a magic stone with powers to call in a debt. What happens is there's an entry made in a computer database, a computer that is in the US.
What this means is that the US ultimately has control over the repayment. Now both legally and practically the US is obligated to repay their securities per the agreed upon terms. However, that goes out the window in the case of a war. US law allows the freezing/seizing of assets, and other countries would have no problem with the idea.
So a situation could arise where the US simply declares China's holdings to be invalid and null. So long as the other bond holders are ok with this, and the (US) courts see it as legal, then China suddenly loses over a trillion dollars in investments. They can't just run off and sell them or something, they have nothing to sell. This would tank the renminbi and really screw China over. It actually could have a positive impact on the US, particularly if the other bond holders saw this as a positive (because the US owes less) and trusted that it wouldn't happen to them.
A country selling treasury notes isn't like taking out a loan with a loan shark. It works really different. US securities are:
1) Denominated in US dollars, and thus only worth something if the dollar is.
2) Payable on defined schedules, with no ability to "call in" the loan early.
3) Nothing more than promises to pay from the US government, and thus only valid if the government decides they will pay.
Maybe? Come on Germany, take the bull. Act like the superpower you were/should be (maybe be on the winning side for once).
USA goes and polices and we get chastised for it. We don't police and keep countries in check and we get chastised for it.
What we need is the EU/UN to actually get off their asses and do something. This is happening right next door to them but they just don't want their oil and gas disrupted. The only country that is moderately energy independent of Russian gas/oil would be the UK and they are not going to go in it alone. We really need the France, UK, and Germany to step in if we want to see Putin stopped.
See the Evil the neocons do. But for US interference in Ukraine people would not be dieing because of a war. Ukraine owes Russia and Russian companies 9 billion dollars. Russian forces are currently an over the top collection agency. When a country owes the US that type of money and can't or won't pay they use the IMF and a lot more people die than will during this war. If advanced weapons are provided to Ukraine their government will be gone before the weapons arrive.
As xkcd pointed out not that long ago, with the prevalence of cameras and wireless, the lack of pictures means the existence of things like Bigfoot and the Russian invasion of Ukraine (today :-) ) are pretty unlikely.
Uranus tomorrow! ;-)
So all this came from.. "Ukraine Leader". Is it the same leader that just disbanded the parliament on account of it "making totalitarian laws"?? lol And he is now believable enough for Reuters to listen and just roll with? With ABSOLUTELY 0 PROOF. You catch half a dozen of lost border guards and claim there are tanks hiding in the bushes? gtfo.
A member of Putin's advisory council on human rights goes missing.
"Happy families are all alike; every unhappy family is unhappy in its own way." -- Anna Karenina by Leo Tolstoy
That doesn't make any sense. The agreement was with a country, not with a particular government, and not tied in any way to the duration of said government. They can "not recognize" the current one many times over, but crossing the border with armed troops is still a violation.
About half of all of Ukraine's power is generated by nuclear power plants. And those all date back to Soviet days, and are "dual use" (meaning that they can be used to produce plutonium). What they lack is the reprocessing capability to do so, but that is much easier to build up.
Very well. When are you leaving for the front?
A lot of people in this country owe Sarah Palin an apology.
She predicted the Ukraine invasion back in 2008
FOX news calls it out.
China's banks hold US bonds as reserves. When (not if) the bonds lose value the banks become more unstable.
But nobody really knows how bad the Chinese banking system is. It's too opaque. I bet even the Chinese bankers don't know how many non-performing loans they continue to carry as good assets.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Sorry guys, but Russia hasn't invaded Ukraine. There are Russian nationals who are independently fighting in the Ukraine, and no doubt Russia has covert operatives in Ukraine, but there is no large scale ground invasion. There is no confirmation of Moscow supported troops, overt ones at least, when we can easily get satellite images or actual proof other than someone saying, Russia is invading. This is just more anti-Russian pretext. The closest place Russian troops are present in large numbers is Crimea, which sorry to say has seceded from Ukraine and was annexed by Russia, whether anyone else wants to acknowledge it or not. Hooray for unsubstantiated articles.
Germany? Austria? Turkey? Saddle up and regain your empire from last century, the sale has begun!
Better not tell Mongolia (e.g., Genghis Khan's relatives)...
These words are not spoken by the Cpt Picard I know and love. IMPOSTER!!!!!
Yeah but there is a large number of ethnic Russians in eastern Ukraine and many are sympathetic to Putin. I predict the country will be partitioned: Western Ukraine will align itself with Europe and be fast-tracked for NATO membership, and Eastern Ukraine will fall under Russian control.
"Could be worse...could be raining." Igor
"I assume from your absurd statement that you consider invading Afghanistan and Iraq, then replacing their governments, is not "conquering"? Because ..... ? Because they installed a new government and then left, sorta, except they still routinely fly drones and air-strike anyone in those countries they see fit, which no truly independent country would tolerate."
Except Pakistan, Yemen, Somalia, and a long list of other countries that absolutely wish were drone striking them. Do you think Nigeria would pass? Mali? I don't.
The Soviets bailed on Afghanistan with the Leftist Afghan government still intact when the finally understood the Afghans were worthless as allies.
I doubt they want to tackle a vastly larger failed state.
Scaremongering much?
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
More like "America, Fuck Off".
We don't need a Ukraine. We have NATO. Ukraine is infested with Russians hence it doesn't belong in NATO. Russia is historically an enemy of Europe no matter who runs it and Russians are therefore an enemy people.
I care about Europe so I advocate containment which has PROVEN effective against the Old Soviets and can easily work on the New Soviets. What Stalin did to his own people doesn't matter. No possible Russian government won't be an enemy of the West, so when they kill each other the pragmatic man considers it a win.
I'm sure that in 1985, plutonium is available in every corner drugstore, but in 2014, it's a little hard to come by.
LOL Why is this insightful?! Does nobody remember Back to the Future?!
Perfectly timed quote. :)
putin claimed his terrorists bought weapons in some stores somewhere. ukrainians could buy anything in some countryside store, i guess...
Rich
Invasion
The USA has been sticking its finger in the machinations of international finance for some years now so this is very do-able. The problem with this is twofold. First, it will simply move that portion of international trade into dark banking and black markets. This will reduce the effect of these sanctions. Second, enforcing such sanctions legitimizes the use of those sanctions against many other countries. In a time of civil wars (Somalia still, Libya, Syria, Central African Republic, possibly Mali and Nigeria, Egypt is an unknown), encouraging the fragmentation of international finance will cause the collapse of more governments.
We also promised Russia that we wouldn't expand NATO to include Warsaw Pact countries. NATO is expanding ever closer to its borders. It makes sense that Russia would feel threatened.
There's more than that going on, of course. Europe wants Ukraine's natural gas. So does Russia, and they want their port in the black sea, which they have now with crimea. To some extent, the U.S. does as well, with Joe Biden's son now as of recently on the board of Burisma Holdings, but mostly the U.S. is just still fighting the Cold War I think. Ukraine is one of the most corrupt countries in the world. The entire situation reeks and I honestly can't tell who's more in the wrong, the U.S. or Russia. How involved was the U.S. in the overthrow of Yanukovich? The more I investigate this stuff, the more I side with Russia....
You're naive if this anything to do with appearing weak or not. Do you really think the US government or military appears weak to anyone? If they do, they're stupid. I'm not saying the US is spotless in its record, but the idea that the US is weak in terms of its military sphere of influence is ridiculous.
You don't do anything militarily to avoid appearances of weakness. That's a recipe for suicide. You do them to achieve objectives. Putin's doing this because he knows what our capabilities are, militarily and economically, not because of any asserted red lines or lack thereof. That is, he knows that the Russian military is not weak either, and that we don't have enough invested in the Ukraine to incur the costs that would be entailed if we went in to the conflict entirely. He's gambling on our assets, not what we say.
Now, if NATO decided to go at it, that's a different story. But you're not discussing that, you're discussing the US.
Finally, part of the reason we're in the position we're in is because of Bush's irresponsible dog and pony show-wastes of time, money, and lives. He squandered resources on his personal vendettas and to project an image over issues that don't really matter, and now we're in a position where it does. Personally I would have rather the US stayed out of Iraq, and not wasted money on DHS in its current form, and saved it for dealing with real threats like Putin. The real weakness isn't the red line, it's the incompetency that ironically underlies "America Fuck Yeah." The red line is made weaker by the latter.
Why not just offer the Ukranian government a dozen nukes? Just basically offer nuclear deterrence...
Its on, thats Europe you're fucking with.
Same EXACT crew who declared Iraqi WMD confirmed fact.
How many times will you be neo-conned, by the "bogey-man dictator" ploy?
"Flyin' in just a sweet place,
Never been known to fail..."
Not that this will go anywhere but deaf ears, in part because there is a systemic pro-US push on every western website you care to name:
Early 1990's US suffers economic collapse
Texas and several other states secede from the union
Texas produces over half of the US military equipment, a good portion of the food, and can make nuclear weapons
The US keeps these states, especially Texas, within their sphere of influence through economic deals, US Oil pipelines run to South America through Texas
Texas has economic troubles, the US offers no-strings attached bailouts to keep Texas within its sphere of influence
The Soviet Union offers bailouts if Texas implement austerity measures, with the possibility of joining the South American Union and Warsaw Pact at a later date
There is talk in the media that the Soviet Union needs to put a missile defense shield in Texas once it's in the Warsaw Pact to protect itself and South America from Canadian aggression (They have the ability to make nukes, after all)
The US balks at all of this
Texan government takes the US deal, there are small protests in Texas where people argue they're better off with the Soviet Union, they want to split away from the US
These protestors are mostly left-leaning
The Soviet Union funds these protests and they go from small to large: Eventually the protestors perform a coup, replacing the Texan government; evidence (actual recorded phone calls) surface of false flag shootings being used to instigate tensions and violence
The right-leaning people in Texas are appalled, they start a separatist movement in several counties
The Texan government sends in its military to crush the separatist movement
The US begins funding and supplying the separatists with weapons and volunteers to help them
The Soviet Union paints the US as the aggressor, trying to threaten the world and annex countries like Hitler
As someone who has been looking at BOTH sides of this issue I'm fucking amazed that anyone paints Russia with such broad strokes as literal "Bad Guys". Everything they are doing makes sense geopolitically and nationally. Ukraine in NATO with a 'missile defense' in place against 'Iran'. Who are we kidding?
Once you look at the situation as it could apply to the US, it makes it easier to see through the utter bullshit propaganda. This entire thing is nothing more than NATO and the US encroaching on Russia's sphere of influence and territory. Russia ABSOLUTELY will go WW3 over Ukraine. The possibility of US/NATO nuclear weapons sitting in Ukraine is something Russia will not allow to happen, the loss of half of Russia's arms manufacturing cannot be allowed to happen. Ukraine is the first step to a first strike nuclear war scenario that could actually work.
I feel like I'm living in bizarro world where everyone has lost their marbles. I'm Canadian and even I don't support what the US has attempted to do in Ukraine. I'm sure some people will think I'm just eating up russian propaganda that I can't even read, but the truth is that I'm just not blindly siding with America. What the US is doing in Europe is pushing us towards thermonuclear war.
The American and European people need to find our marbles again. This is fucking crazy.
What country did we annex again? Oh, right.
Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, American Samoa, Guam, Northern Mariana Islands come to mind.
Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
If Ukraine steps up the fight, it could really trigger a full scale invasion, like what happened in Georgia with the Russian army kilometres from Kiev and all pretence of western support strewn asunder.
Donetsk and luhansk are lost. Russia has sent 4000 guys into fight and reversed government gains. There's at least five times that amount with three hours drive of Kiev.
The only question is how much of South Eastern Ukraine is lost. Would poroshenko negotiating now freeze the losses or is further expansion to Mariupol and even Odessa inevitable?
There probably is a level of defiance that would provoke a full scale invasion, with Russian troops at Poland's eastern border but, there's equally a path for Ukraine, not including Donetsk and luhansk to join the Eu.
Putin didn't annex north ossetia, so annexation of novorussia is not a foregone conclusion.
It sucks, it shouldn't be like this but, right now Ukraine needs to back down from a fight it has already lost, before it looses even worse
Russia has invested billions in pipelines to transmit gas from Siberia to Europe. It has yet to invest the same sort of money in pipelines that head in a completely different direction, to China. Maybe in another five years it will have done so, but it hasn't yet.
Shutting off the tap of oil and gas to Europe now, today, would more than halve Russia's total exports. At a stroke, it would pretty much destroy what there is of the Russian economy. Yes, it would hurt consumers in Europe too - but not nearly as much as it would the Russians. And that, of course, is why the Europeans really don't want to do it - if there's one thing that scares us, collectively, more than the prospect of a million Russian soldiers marching on Poland, it's the spectre of 20 million Russian economic refugees doing it.
Yes, Putin knows he can invade at will, and re-create the Soviet empire if he wants to, and nobody is going to try to stop him, because he's got The Bomb.
This is just the way the Russians are. Barely civilized.
People keep repeating this but I don't think it's true.
It will be difficult in the short term but the consequences of being under Russia (Or rather the robber barons that control the failed state that carries the name Russia) are becoming too big to ignore.
China and Russia really are not friends. China's not stupid. They don't want to be dependent on them either.
Maybe you missed this May 2014 article:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/china-russia-sign-400-billion-gas-deal/2014/05/21/364e9e74-e0de-11e3-8dcc-d6b7fede081a_story.html
To import natural gas, you either need pipelines connected to your supplier, or a seaport capable of deliquifying natural gas. Of course, your supplier needs to have seaports capable of liquifying natural gas for transport.
LNG Terminals
There are three plants in the Americas-- Atlantic, in Trinidad-Tobago. Kenai, in Alaska. and Peru. A further plant is being built in Louisiana, Cheniere Sabine, Pass which is currently boasting of its expansion to a bi directional facility, meaning of course, that it currently only has facilities for importing gas, not exporting it
So, not quite fungible. Not nearly as much as petroleum.
The Russian government denies it. Being a neutral observer in this whole thing I need solid proof. What is asserted without evidence can be discarded without evidence.
All I know is that Burisma Holdings has some interesting people on their board of directors like Hunter Biden and Devon Archer.
This map reveals more about what is really happening more than anything else http://burisma.com/production/ . Lets face it guys this is a class war and we are getting lied to non-stop.
IF Russia wanted to actually invade Ukraine, I highly DOUBT they would send 1000 soldiers.
They have ~800 000 standing personel.
It's not an invasion. It's not even a drop in the bucket. This is western media hyperbole at its worst.
In the long run it's easier for Europe to locate and develop alternate sources of gas than it is for Russia to replace its main export industry. You have to remember that the Russian economy is actually a fraction of the size of the Eurozone's.
Seems like the 1930s again.
...and then Russia gives nukes to Iran. Now what?
Heh. This one is easy. Look at how butthurt the USA is *still today* after Cuba going communist when... 1959?
And look at all the shenanigans the CIA pulled to turn that back (yes -- they even planned to harm USA citizens to blame it on Cuban terrorists).
Not defending Castro's regime here -- imo there's no defense for a totalitarian regime, but seeing the US of A putting itself in the moral high ground is just repugnant.
So USA is no worse than Russia in that. But no better either.
Some of us are even more sorry right now. Not that it matters - several lonely voices of reason wouldn't stop this juggernaut of madness that our media had become. And people here still mostly do believe our media.
Absence of proof != proof of absence.
That is like so easy, right? Putin did not enter into a treaty with a government, but with a country. The country is still standing. This Ukrainian government has dissolved the parliament and is holding elections. Putin does not want to wait for the outcome, he already knows they are not going to be favourable to the Russian side.
Let' all go and start WWIII. I think Putin is dangerous but not that crazy.
Ukraine should "sell" its ownership in the Ukrainian section of the gas pipeline to a Nato country and then shut off the flow of gas.
Interesting idea, maybe they should also get someone important's son, I dont know, maybe Hunter Biden, to become an executive of a gas company over there to do such a thing...
Oh snap, they already did
A lot of this is already happening. In my opinion the Western sanctions are working. The Russian economy is visibly crumbling: high inflation, high interest rates, collapsing auto market, bankrupted tour operators leave thousands of Russians stranded abroad, huge capital flight, etc, and sanctions were enabled just a couple of months ago. Given it a year, and Russian economy will be in a deep recession. It will be interesting how Putin will respond because his unspoken contract with Russian people was that they will accept an authoritarian government in exchange for economic stability.
Mod parent up. Exceptionally informative.
Chuuch. Preach. Tabernacle.
Berlin 1945 == Moscow 2020
Not really. Germany was screwed by the victors after the first world war. Crippling reparations made life impossible there, and the people became angry and resentful. The Nazis used that to their advantage. Russians today on the other hand have a relatively good standard of living and the problems there are no-where near as bad as Germany was. The Ukraine is one specific issue where clearly a lot of people living there want to be part of Russia.
I find it ironic how some western countries, particularly the US and UK, are saying pretty much what Russia was saying when they invaded various countries in the name of protecting the population and democracy. Like we did Russia is saying they want to see meaningful dialogue and negotiation for those parts of Ukraine that want to be independent or part of Russia, i.e. respect for their democratic will. Like Russia did we are now accusing the "invaders" of having all kinds of ulterior motives and bring on the brink of starting a major war.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
Id imagine once our country gets its priorities in order and locates its courage and resolve.
Now we DON'T INVADE IRAN!
And then they lived happily ever after. Seriously, do you WANT to invade Iran? WTF is wrong with you?
The 70's called. They want to know what we thought was wrong with their foreign policy.
You have a serious logic problem. Or maybe your "Jump to Conclusions" mat was delivered today.
A nuclear Iran would destabilize the Mideast even further. It has nothing to do with your crackpot ideas.
Remember the old saying (slightly modified for modern times): If you owe the bank a million dollars, you've got a problem. If you owe the bank a billion dollars, they've got a problem.
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
It's Russia. The Soviet Union was, basically, Russia (even if ruled by a Georgian for a long time). There's too much continuity in the policies. Putin, like Nicholas and Stalin before him, wants to be, functionally, Tsar.
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
I don't see it as the Russian National Socialist propaganda. I see it as the neo-Tsarist propaganda.
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
This also from an interview Merkel gave to public German TV yesterday:
Especially the last point is clearly a big step back from the earlier all out "Ukraine is EU" position.
Additionally to the economic side, pressure on Merkel also grows because there is more and more doubt, even in German mainstream media, about the veracity of the Ukrainian propaganda and about the destruction of flight MH17. Why is there is no news about it? Is there a coverup (in German)?
"Flyin' in just a sweet place,
Never been known to fail..."
A nuclear Iran would destabilize the Mideast even further
I think the we've done about as much of that as possible. I mean, hundreds of thousands of dead civilians isn't exactly "stable".
Would a nuclear Iran be destabilizing? I imagine it'd be as destabilizing as a nuclear Israel. They haven't nuked anyone yet, and hopefully never will.
Seriously though, what do you think would happen if Russia gave Iran a handful of nukes? Spell out the scenario. I'm honestly interested in what you think.
At one point the Ukraine had several thousand nukes abandoned by the Soviets when the Soviet Union disintegrated. They asked the west to destroy them all. Perhaps we should give a few back.
Putin hasnÃ(TM)t sent tanks and artillery into Ukraine. He doesnÃ(TM)t need to. The militias are loaded with battle-hardened veterans who know how to fight and who are quite good at it. Just ask Poroshenko whose army has been taking it in the shorts for the last couple of weeks. Check out this blurb in ThursdayÃ(TM)s Itar Tass:
ÃoeOver the week of August 16-23, the self-defense fighters of the Donetsk and Luhansk PeopleÃ(TM)s Republics seized 14 T-64 tanks, 25 infantry fighting vehicles, 18 armored personnel carriers, one armored reconnaissance and patrol vehicle, one Uragan multiple launch rocket system, two Gvozdika self-propelled artillery guns, four D-30 howitzers, four mortars, one ZU-23-2 air defense system and 33 vehicles.Ã (East Ukraine militias seize large amount of Ukrainian armor, Itar Tass)"
Get the picture? The Ukrainian army is getting beaten to a pulp, which means that ObamaÃ(TM)s glorious 'pivot strategy' just slammed into a brick wall.
There is no Russian invasion anymore than there were WMD, mobile weapons labs, aluminum tubes, Sarin gas etc, etc, etc. It's all BS concocted by a servile western media.
Here's how Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov responded to the claims of a Russian invasion. He said:
"It's not the first time we've heard wild guesses, though, so far, the facts have never been presented.
"There have been reports about satellite imagery exposing Russian troop movements. They turned out to be images from videogames. The latest accusations happen to be much the same quality"
As if the BBC is eternal champion of truth ... ? Since when are the publications of mainstream media outlets accepted as truth over actual evidence (of which there is no trace) ?
>(Or rather the robber barons that control the failed state that carries the name Russia) are becoming too big to ignore.
You think they'd prefer instead to be under the robber barons that control the failed state that carries the acronym "USA"?
Why should we believe any of reports? Nothing on this subject coming from the Obama administration (because that's really where this information is coming from, obediently disseminated by the mainstream media) has been credible since the beginning:
- Only two weeks ago that a fabricated report spread by the UK Guardian and the BBC that a Russian armored convoy entered Ukraine and was destroyed by the Ukrainian Military. That turned out to be fiction.
- Two weeks prior to that we had the hoax of the satellite images released by US State Department that the US ambassador in Kiev spread around the world on social media allegedly showing Russian forces firing into Ukraine.
One could go into intricate detail about the propaganda game centered around the shootdown of flight MH17 over Ukraine. There too we've seen fabrications and lies presented by the western media and the US state department which have been clearly shown to be as such. Funny how the story just suddenly dropped off the news lately ;-)
It also makes no sense that Russia would send a trickle of troops into Ukraine to accomplish what ever military objectives she might have - the reports we've been hearing seem to describe a force that's barely large enough to be detected (i.e barely enough to accomplish anything at all). It seems people would rather readily jump to the conclusion that these phantom troops are Russian military, than examine the far more likely case of them being Ukranian separatists using an assortment of legacy hardware some of which would inevitably have the same sources as Russian military equipment. A large amount of Russian military hardware is actually manufactured in Ukraine.
If Putin decided he has no alternative to sending the Russian military to protect the Russian residents in eastern and southern Ukraine, he would send enough troops to do the job quickly as he did in Georgia when the American and Israeli trained Georgian army invaded South Ossetia and was destroyed in a few hours by the Russian response. If you hear that 100,000 Russian troops accompanied by air cover have invaded Ukraine, it would be more believable.
As an aside: I'd expect more critical thinking from slashdotters, but looking at the comments on this forum, there's a remarkable absence of that. Aside from that, the question of why slashdot is being used as a platform for political propaganda? I mean, what has this thread got to do with tech anyway ? Has Dice media been given the order from Washington to plant political memes in the slashdot community?
Anyway, since the bait was offered ...
This is GOOD that Russian Army "invaded" eastern part of Ukraine, where absolute majority are ethnic RUSSIANS.
These areas are under constant fire, bombardment by Ukrainian Fascists. People getting killed every day.
Most of the population live underground.
How it all started ? A usual old time american Russia-PHOBIA.
The FASCIST COUP in Kiev, organised and planned by who else...sure..United States of america. More precisely OBAMA.
CIA was involved in every step of the coup from the very beginning.
The reason is obvious as usual: US wants to have ukraine as its NEW PUPPET, and to be closer to RUSSIA.
WHY?
Because US fears of RUSSIA'S growing ECONOMY, close ties and proximity with CHINA, and RUSSIA's growing role in europe.
But most important is the new anti-american ECONOMIC ALLIANCE - BRICS (Brazil, Russia, China, S.Africa). Why S. Africa...? hell knows.
This NEW ALLIANCE wants to be NOT Dependent on American $$$$$$$ . Period. Enough is enough.
Something else to add. US is trying very hard to blame on RUSSIA Everything, including the downed MALAYSIAN Airplane, when ALL FACTS show that UKRAINIANS were behind shooting it down, by DIRECTIONS from CIA.
This is HOW dirty america controls the world....BUT not RUSSIA.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared...
Casteism
Again with all these conspiracy theories about Western involvement in Ukraine. The thing about conspiracy theories is that they never hold up when you apply common sense.
There is only one major nation for which the situation in Ukraine is of critical importance: Russia. If EU membership led to a flood of Gean, French, and British investment in Ukrainian oil production, Russia would no longer have a monopoly on oil exports to the rest of Europe. This would be a disaster for the Russian oil oligarchs that keep Putin in power. From the perspective of EU businessmen, however, it matters little whether they invest in Ukraine or Russia. Meanwhile, the average American probably wouldn't even be able to point Ukraine out on a map.
So who has the vested interest in interfering in Ukrainian politics? Moreover, who has a history of interfering in Ukrainian politics? That's right, Russia. Are you forgetting that the KGB tried to assassinate Yushchenko in 2014? Of course Russia and their lackey Yanukovych claimed that Yushchenko poisoined and nearly killed himself to win sympathy from voters, because that is something that a sane person would do. (Note the heavy sarcasm.)
So no, the protests in Kiev were not engineered by the CIA; they were grassroots. Just because you read it on RIA Novosti, doesn't make it true.
The problem is that no matter what happens we'll lose.
Either Putin responds in kind and we got WW3.
Or he does not, which will most likely be the start of his downfall, which makes it quite likely to get an even bigger bastard in power. And then we get WW3, with an opponent that's even worse than Stalin, I mean Putin.
We're playing with fire here. It seems we want to "reign in" Putin, without considering what would happen if we actually succeeded.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Russian Military Forces Have, For Months Now, Repeatedly and Constantly Invaded Ukraine
--- Say something clever. Pretend it was me. Thanks.
How is what is happening in the Ukraine unlike Texas, the US, and Mexico mid 1800's?
OCSE already denied the so-called "invasion".
Slashdot still doesn't rectify the article, nor publish an update.
Congratulations!
News for Propaganda Brainwashed Nerds.
You seem to have drunk the Kool-Aide if you believe that the west (aka, EU, US) have had no involvement in the ongoing (over a decade) political instability in Ukraine. Here are just a few oldies but goodies
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/G...
http://www.theguardian.com/wor...
http://monthlyreview.org/2006/...
And of course there is the very long history of CIA and MI6 meddling in the internal affairs of, well, just about every country in the world.
Take a look at the link (shamelessly ripped off the CNN site) http://www.cnn.com/2014/09/02/world/europe/ukraine-crisis/index.html?hpt=wo_c2 and then make your judgment. It is FAR more complicated than the scanario most \. readers subscribe to: big evil country A invades small nice country B. ;) ), elected their own and sent a punitive expedition to discipline the East.
In essence West and Central Ukraine overthrew Eastern Ukraine President (as corrupt as other UKR politicians, and probably much less smart
Unfortunately, they seriously underestimated their big neighbor's president, and now are in undescribably ridiculous position - being unable to hold ground against the rebellion they fueled to the max + some well organized troops from their neighborhood. IMHO, those unwilling to police their own country (uniformed + armed political party members, such a thing exists only in UA and North Korea) end up being policed from abroad. Best solution? The one that will preclude "small & victorious" punitive operation to spark some bigger conflict, the butcher "Caliphate" has more than enough conflict generating potential...
Intercepted conversation was published in local Pskov media, editor was heavily beaten for these activities,
snapshot from cache, original publication was taken down:
http://web.archive.org/web/201...
Authentic rude Russian language, swearing every second word, sorry it may be hard for automatic translators.
Describes to caller activities of his team of about 90 troopers on territory of Ukraine at 10AM of August 20th, with about 80 killed on spot.
For those, who still can't see war going on: nothing new - you are supposed to continue your way.
Servant of karma