"I hope that this sends a message to everyone in the same situation to not plead down, and to raise as much hell as possible."
Easy for the guy not looking at a possible 20 year sentence in a federal "pound-you-in-the-ass"* prison to say.
* Let the "Office Space" quotes begin.
"Damn I'm tired of this. It's copyright infringment, not theft. Noone is deprived of tangible property due to p2p use."
The fact that something isn't tangible as a justification of theft is a pretty obtuse argument. If someone hacks into your bank account (let us assume this is in a country with no depositor insurance) and empties your account you haven't been deprived of anything tangible. Is it theft?
"There is an Indian race and an American race (both are wild mixes, like all races). There is an American nation and an Indian nation. I used the word "racism" because it has a negative taint (for good reasons), unfortunately nationalism, for many, does not have a negative taint.
Maybe the use of the word "nationalism" or "jingoism" would have been more appropriate but I don't think using the word "racism" is wrong and it does bring my point across more clearly."
My only problem with interchanging racism and nationalism is that it obscure my point (which I probably didnt make clear to begin with, d'oh). There are ethnicities: East Indian, European (of which make up the majority of American caucasions), Latinos, Africans, Asians, etc...
One's ethnicity is not necessarily tied to their nationality (e.g. if your parents are East Indian but you were born on American soil you are considered a citizen of the United States and thus a US national).
That being said, I have no problems with anybody of any ethnicity earning the same wage as a caucasion or anybody else. I work for a telecom manufacturer and we have a large percentage of Asian and Indian engineers and managers. I am friends with a quite a few of them and don't differentiate between them and engineers/managers of any other ethnicity.
--The continuation of my point is about to diverge slightly from H1-B to offshore outsourcing because the initial comment I responded to blurred the lines when brining up money sent back to other countries.--
I would like to see as many tech jobs stay here as possible for the simple reason that the wages paid to the employee/contractor get put back into our economy. Taxes are taken out to support our schools, police/fire departments, Social Security, Medicare, etc... I believe H1-Bs would not be a concern from this perspective since taxes are probably taken out (I assume). But when jobs are moved out of country the wages, contracting fees, personnel training are going to another country. Our community/state/country is losing out due to lower cost labor overseas.
Do I begrudge these countries opportunity needed to improve their economy, do I want to keep the poor poor as it were? Not at all. An increased standard of living is a boon to any country through increased global security and more trading partners/new markets. But when that benefit comes at the detriment of my country I have to take what I think to be a justifiable exception. Nobody wants to see their people/country lose valuable jobs even if the side effect happens to be a benefit to others. If any East Indian, Chinese, etc... were to tell me they would be happy to be put out of work so a programmer in Thailand could get a leg up I would call them a blatant liar.
I am a nationalist, I hate to turn on CNN and see that Dell moved 3000 call center jobs to wherever, if that makes me a xenophobe or jingoist then I can live with that, I love my country and its citizens and any body from any other country that doesn't believe the same way is doing a disservice to their fellow citizens regardless of their ethnicity.
"To respond to your point about H1-B, I call bullshit. We have plenty of workers in this country that can do the work. Companies just like low-paid indentured servants more."
That was my point. The way it is supposed to work and the way it currently works are two different things. However if our schools focused as much on math and science as other countries we would have an over abundance of technically skilled citizens and the corporations wouldnt be able to bullshit congress about the lack of qualified domestic labor.
I agree that programming is becoming a trade much like any other. However with programming you need to constantly train yourself or risk obsolesence, in electrical work and plumbing the technology moves at a much slower place (a toliet is a toliet and a breaker is a breaker not much changes year to year).
But, have you ever priced a plumber to come and do work in your home? A skilled craftsman will run you about $65-$80 an hour a master electrician is about the same. Thats more than I make doing web app development, maybe I should unclog toilets for a living;)
Justin
"It's time to let H1B recipients have the right to change jobs, demand more pay, and be treated like [american] humans."
Actually I'd say its time to put some serious effort into making the next generation of American youth competetive in the engineering and scientific market. The point of H1-B is to find the skills lacking in domestic labor. We have ourselves to blame as well as unscrupulous exploitative corporations like Sun.
"H1B workers get paid the same as legal immagrants with the same level of experience"
That is the way it is supposed to work but obviously it does not or else these suits wouldn't even have made it to court (barring the guy that decided to represent himself). And within a job classification there is a wide range of acceptable salaries. You may find one Java developer earning $35 an hour and another earning $120 an hour. Where on that payscale do you think that the majority of H1-B visas end up?
"The two Indian engineers will be able to support many more people and relieve them from poverty whereas the American engineer would probably waste a large part of his money on the unnecessary things in life"
So you're point is that American developers dont have families to provide for. Since we can only put one roof over our children's head we are less worthy than if two could be housed elsewhere?
"If you are not a racist and think that Americans are better than Indians"
Thats not racism it's nationalism (or more derisively jingoism). If the contention was that caucasions were being replaced with Indians then that would be racism.
"If you are either a customer or shareholder of Sun then you should also applaud them: they either make more profit or able to sell at lower prices."
Lowered operating costs dont always translate to lower costs, usually it means higher profit margins. Customer benefit is suspect at best.
Most users don't care which operating system tha computer uses - as long as it works for them.
Most of theses users would be just as happy with Linux - sating that they want a special product is ignorant
I have to disagree with your statement. PCs are not unlike cars in some respects. There are Toyotas and there are Fords (among a slew of others, much like OSes). They both do basically the same thing with slight differentiations in styles, performance, safety features, etc... If I decide that I am a Ford person then I would not be just as happy with a Toyota. Many argue that Toyotas are better engineered than Fords (much like many argue of Linux versus Windows). Despite that (dubious) fact I still bought a Ford. Preferences, familiarity, and even brand awareness matter a great deal (for better or for worse) to many consumers.
m2c,
Justin
Justin
Slashdot Mirror
"I hope that this sends a message to everyone in the same situation to not plead down, and to raise as much hell as possible." Easy for the guy not looking at a possible 20 year sentence in a federal "pound-you-in-the-ass"* prison to say. * Let the "Office Space" quotes begin.
"Damn I'm tired of this. It's copyright infringment, not theft. Noone is deprived of tangible property due to p2p use." The fact that something isn't tangible as a justification of theft is a pretty obtuse argument. If someone hacks into your bank account (let us assume this is in a country with no depositor insurance) and empties your account you haven't been deprived of anything tangible. Is it theft?
"There is an Indian race and an American race (both are wild mixes, like all races). There is an American nation and an Indian nation. I used the word "racism" because it has a negative taint (for good reasons), unfortunately nationalism, for many, does not have a negative taint. Maybe the use of the word "nationalism" or "jingoism" would have been more appropriate but I don't think using the word "racism" is wrong and it does bring my point across more clearly."
My only problem with interchanging racism and nationalism is that it obscure my point (which I probably didnt make clear to begin with, d'oh). There are ethnicities: East Indian, European (of which make up the majority of American caucasions), Latinos, Africans, Asians, etc...
One's ethnicity is not necessarily tied to their nationality (e.g. if your parents are East Indian but you were born on American soil you are considered a citizen of the United States and thus a US national).
That being said, I have no problems with anybody of any ethnicity earning the same wage as a caucasion or anybody else. I work for a telecom manufacturer and we have a large percentage of Asian and Indian engineers and managers. I am friends with a quite a few of them and don't differentiate between them and engineers/managers of any other ethnicity.
--The continuation of my point is about to diverge slightly from H1-B to offshore outsourcing because the initial comment I responded to blurred the lines when brining up money sent back to other countries.--
I would like to see as many tech jobs stay here as possible for the simple reason that the wages paid to the employee/contractor get put back into our economy. Taxes are taken out to support our schools, police/fire departments, Social Security, Medicare, etc... I believe H1-Bs would not be a concern from this perspective since taxes are probably taken out (I assume). But when jobs are moved out of country the wages, contracting fees, personnel training are going to another country. Our community/state/country is losing out due to lower cost labor overseas.
Do I begrudge these countries opportunity needed to improve their economy, do I want to keep the poor poor as it were? Not at all. An increased standard of living is a boon to any country through increased global security and more trading partners/new markets. But when that benefit comes at the detriment of my country I have to take what I think to be a justifiable exception. Nobody wants to see their people/country lose valuable jobs even if the side effect happens to be a benefit to others. If any East Indian, Chinese, etc... were to tell me they would be happy to be put out of work so a programmer in Thailand could get a leg up I would call them a blatant liar.
I am a nationalist, I hate to turn on CNN and see that Dell moved 3000 call center jobs to wherever, if that makes me a xenophobe or jingoist then I can live with that, I love my country and its citizens and any body from any other country that doesn't believe the same way is doing a disservice to their fellow citizens regardless of their ethnicity.
m2c,
Justin
"To respond to your point about H1-B, I call bullshit. We have plenty of workers in this country that can do the work. Companies just like low-paid indentured servants more."
That was my point. The way it is supposed to work and the way it currently works are two different things. However if our schools focused as much on math and science as other countries we would have an over abundance of technically skilled citizens and the corporations wouldnt be able to bullshit congress about the lack of qualified domestic labor.
I agree that programming is becoming a trade much like any other. However with programming you need to constantly train yourself or risk obsolesence, in electrical work and plumbing the technology moves at a much slower place (a toliet is a toliet and a breaker is a breaker not much changes year to year). But, have you ever priced a plumber to come and do work in your home? A skilled craftsman will run you about $65-$80 an hour a master electrician is about the same. Thats more than I make doing web app development, maybe I should unclog toilets for a living ;)
Justin
"It's time to let H1B recipients have the right to change jobs, demand more pay, and be treated like [american] humans."
Actually I'd say its time to put some serious effort into making the next generation of American youth competetive in the engineering and scientific market. The point of H1-B is to find the skills lacking in domestic labor. We have ourselves to blame as well as unscrupulous exploitative corporations like Sun.
Justin
"H1B workers get paid the same as legal immagrants with the same level of experience"
That is the way it is supposed to work but obviously it does not or else these suits wouldn't even have made it to court (barring the guy that decided to represent himself). And within a job classification there is a wide range of acceptable salaries. You may find one Java developer earning $35 an hour and another earning $120 an hour. Where on that payscale do you think that the majority of H1-B visas end up?
"The two Indian engineers will be able to support many more people and relieve them from poverty whereas the American engineer would probably waste a large part of his money on the unnecessary things in life"
So you're point is that American developers dont have families to provide for. Since we can only put one roof over our children's head we are less worthy than if two could be housed elsewhere?
"If you are not a racist and think that Americans are better than Indians"
Thats not racism it's nationalism (or more derisively jingoism). If the contention was that caucasions were being replaced with Indians then that would be racism.
"If you are either a customer or shareholder of Sun then you should also applaud them: they either make more profit or able to sell at lower prices."
Lowered operating costs dont always translate to lower costs, usually it means higher profit margins. Customer benefit is suspect at best.
m2c,
Justin
Most users don't care which operating system tha computer uses - as long as it works for them.
Most of theses users would be just as happy with Linux - sating that they want a special product is ignorant
I have to disagree with your statement. PCs are not unlike cars in some respects. There are Toyotas and there are Fords (among a slew of others, much like OSes). They both do basically the same thing with slight differentiations in styles, performance, safety features, etc... If I decide that I am a Ford person then I would not be just as happy with a Toyota. Many argue that Toyotas are better engineered than Fords (much like many argue of Linux versus Windows). Despite that (dubious) fact I still bought a Ford. Preferences, familiarity, and even brand awareness matter a great deal (for better or for worse) to many consumers.
m2c, Justin Justin