And unfortunately, I'm starting to see sites use it in the same bad ways. Anyone that decides ajax, java, or flash is a replacement for website navigation is an idiot.
These technologies have plenty of uses to enhance web applications, but as soon as they render my browsers controls unusable, something is wrong.
Something like default file formats shouldn't be hardcoded.
OpenOffice 1.x checked for an env variable OOO_MS_DEFAULTS=1 This doesn't work for OO2, but I haven't done much research yet to figure out what does. I've seen something in the GUI, but not for all users.
(Ubuntu doesn't have latest version of OOO which would have included an Access counterpart).
I have very little experience with ubuntu(mostly fedora user), but I know this isn't true. I installed ubuntu in vmware the other day was able to have it upgrade to open office 2 without any problems.
Interestingly, you omitted the sentence that I had following it- "Think of all the hacks that result just from that."
Not that interesting. I was just assuming you meant hacks arrising in the use of the language. Not hacks Sun had to use to put it together.
Wrapping and autoboxing are hacks.
Possibly. But they are clearly documented and were well recieved when 1.5 was released.
Why don't the reflexive libraries work with primitive types?
Introspection on primitive members of a class gives you the corresponding wrapper class type. Whether or not that is a working implementation is debateable I guess.
Primitive types were a cop out by Sun; they could have spend time and got it right but that would probably mean addition JVM complexity and time.
They've had millions of dollars and over ten years to change things. I doubt the decisions made were simply due to time constraints or additional jvm complexity. If anything its likely that the JCP doesn't see this as a big enough issue to steer things away from its present course.
That everything is an object in Java except for the primitive types are such a cop out by Sun.
Is this really such a problem? The standard wrapper classes(Integer, Double, etc.) have been around since 1.0 and are part of java.lang so they don't even have to be explicitly included in the code. I've never been confused as to when I needed an object over the effeciency of a primitive data type.
And as of 1.5, the collections classes automatically box and unbox primitives into their corresponding wrappers.
I'd take it a step further and mention that MS Office has also been the killer app that has kept people using their other software offerings, namely windows. There are plenty of business that are already using web based and/or cross platform applications. If there was no need for MS Office there may also be no need for MS Windows.
It won't happen over night, but losing office suite dominance would be a huge blow to MS in more ways than one.
I see your point now, but in practice this isn't the issue you're making it out to be. The level of abstraction java provides does tend to lend itself to solving business processes and less to tuning for specific hardware. Its clearly not the right tool for every job. But when productivity and timelines are an issue I generally look to java first.
Seems to work fine here.
What part is broken for you? The only real difference I see is that fedora has its own default theme that they try to make look like their theme for gnome.
It's not hardcoded file names that matter. It is things like threading and memory management that become suddenly improtant when stressing the system. With Java these are unknown and highly volatile factors that change from one platform to another. Things like adding a thread to a pool of a hundred (it's a random value) may grind whole system to a halt.
I seem to find the exact opposite to be true. Its pretty easy to put constraints on the amount of memory allocated to a VM. "Stress the system" as far as you'd like. And things like setting up thread thread pools are trivial in java.
It's not a big deal with non-Java applications, because this things are factored in into the application. With Java however you are not even supposed to THINK about this stuff and that's what makes it evil. Not being directly exposed to the problems does not mean they don't happen. It just means that it is that much harder to deal with them.
Why wouldn't you think about system and application performance just because something is written in java?
I've been developing in several different languages for almost 16 years and almost ten in java. I'm really having trouble following your train of thought. Could you give examples?
And that's so much worse than: '[some other language], compile everywhere, debug everywhere' ?
Of course you should test on your target platforms. Writing in java makes a lot of things easy, but it doesn't stop people hard coding something like 'new File("C:\winnt\myconfig.conf");'
I don't how many times I've heard the 'Java - write once, debug everywhere' mantra used as though its some clever zinger that invalidates 12 years of Sun's research and development. Its more than a little irritating.
I've been using Beanshell for a while and it works pretty well. I like that it allows to write scripts in java syntax. My only gripe is that there isn't a safe way to kill a script that is running in a seperate thread. Groovy any better in that respect?
BTW, here's a little app I wrote using swing & beanshell.
I haven't had much need for this, but can this be done cross-platform with any language? When I think of IPC, I think of things like game trainers that manipulate seperate running game processes. And it may be just bad luck or an unrelated issue, but I've never gotten it to work in wine on linux.
Also, are C# and CLR able to do IPC? Seems like running things in protected memory space without pointer arithmetic would not lend itself well to this.
THEY USE IT BECAUSE IT WAS THE FIRST THING THEY GOT WORKING...
I think there is some merit to this statment.
I'd love to see postgreSQL added to the xampp package.
The nice thing about xampp is that you simply unzip it into a directory and suddenly you have a huge technology stack of apache, mysql, perl, php all ready to go for stand alone development.
I'm betting there are plenty of windows only developers that wouldn't mind giving either database a shot if they understood how easy it was to get started.
I haven't used it, but Cyrstal reports for Java has been around for a while. A demo of it came bundled with the last few version of jbuilder I've used.
Parent should not be modded "Troll". He brings up a valid point: if someone offered me a free car and said they would offer "service and support" for a fee, I would immediatly assume the car must be prone to having problems.
The problem with that analogy is that support is never free. Vendors of proprietary closed source software also charge for service and support.
When I first started using it I tried out several different helper libraries, but found that it all basically just came down to something really easy like this (with better formatting, of course):
var xmlHttpRequest;
function xmlRequest(url)
{
if (window.XMLHttpRequest) {
xmlHttpRequest = new XMLHttpRequest();
} else {
xmlHttpRequest = new ActiveXObject("Microsoft.XMLHTTP");
}
if (xmlHttpRequest) {
xmlHttpRequest.onreadystatechange = _processXmlResponse;
xmlHttpRequest.open("GET", url, true);
if (window.XMLHttpRequest) {
xmlHttpRequest.send(null);
} else {
xmlHttpRequest.send();
}
}
}
Do the work with the results something like this:
function _processXmlResponse()
{
if (xmlHttpRequest.readyState == 4) {
if (xmlHttpRequest.status == 200) { //do stuff with xmlHttpRequest.responseXML.documentElement
} else { // do error handling
}
}
}
YMMV but this generally worked on my target browsers.
BTW, nice site. One suggestion when you hit the (+) to open an item it should turn into a (-) to close it from the same place.
Yes, I'm aware of that, and it proves my point. Some website invented a term for technologies that already existed, under different terminology, and the tech media adopted it to have a buzzword.
The problem is people were already using "DHTML" for technologies that existed before the xmlhttprequest object was seen even in IE. Making asynchronous calls isn't the same thing as just using what was loaded on the first call to a web page and linked css and javascript source files to maninuplate content.
Well, for one, DHTML doesn't sound like a window cleaner. Also, there's more to dynamic webpages than XML and Javascript.
The XML part of xmlhttprequest isn't nearly as cool as the fact that you have access to arbitrarily make an HTTPRequest programmatically. The XML part is just a convenience as it allows you to easily pull down only pull down relevant data(plus xml tags) and have it very quickly parsed into a Documen Object Model. You can also pull data from the DOM to do presentation work on the client side if you choose.
Java gets a bad rap for being slow based on arguments that once applied but have been fixed in modern version of the JVM. Performance has increased significantly since the early JVMs. The key word in your post was hated.
And on top of that, the "Applet loading..." or "Java initializing... " mesage stayed in the status bar of the browsers while java code and resources were being dowloaded through slow phone line internet connections.
BTW, google suggest is what I consider a good use of AJAX. I hate seeing people use it to completely replace the full content of webpages thus leaving browser navigation controls useless.
Slashdot Mirror
sounds a lot like flash to me.
And unfortunately, I'm starting to see sites use it in the same bad ways.
Anyone that decides ajax, java, or flash is a replacement for website navigation is an idiot.
These technologies have plenty of uses to enhance web applications, but as soon as they render my browsers controls unusable, something is wrong.
Something like default file formats shouldn't be hardcoded.
OpenOffice 1.x checked for an env variable OOO_MS_DEFAULTS=1
This doesn't work for OO2, but I haven't done much research yet to figure out what does.
I've seen something in the GUI, but not for all users.
Right you are. I'm using 5.04
I should have said that it was installed from the repository, not upgraded.
I have both Open Offices coexisting.
(Ubuntu doesn't have latest version of OOO which would have included an Access counterpart).
I have very little experience with ubuntu(mostly fedora user), but I know this isn't true.
I installed ubuntu in vmware the other day was able to have it upgrade to open office 2 without any problems.
It has a USB port, so I imagine adding a thumbdrive is possible.
Interestingly, you omitted the sentence that I had following it- "Think of all the hacks that result just from that."
Not that interesting. I was just assuming you meant hacks arrising in the use of the language. Not hacks Sun had to use to put it together.
Wrapping and autoboxing are hacks.
Possibly. But they are clearly documented and were well recieved when 1.5 was released.
Why don't the reflexive libraries work with primitive types?
Introspection on primitive members of a class gives you the corresponding wrapper class type. Whether or not that is a working implementation is debateable I guess.
Primitive types were a cop out by Sun; they could have spend time and got it right but that would probably mean addition JVM complexity and time.
They've had millions of dollars and over ten years to change things. I doubt the decisions made were simply due to time constraints or additional jvm complexity.
If anything its likely that the JCP doesn't see this as a big enough issue to steer things away from its present course.
That everything is an object in Java except for the primitive types are such a cop out by Sun.
Is this really such a problem?
The standard wrapper classes(Integer, Double, etc.) have been around since 1.0 and are part of java.lang so they don't even have to be explicitly included in the code.
I've never been confused as to when I needed an object over the effeciency of a primitive data type.
And as of 1.5, the collections classes automatically box and unbox primitives into their corresponding wrappers.
I'd take it a step further and mention that MS Office has also been the killer app that has kept people using their other software offerings, namely windows.
There are plenty of business that are already using web based and/or cross platform applications. If there was no need for MS Office there may also be no need for MS Windows.
It won't happen over night, but losing office suite dominance would be a huge blow to MS in more ways than one.
I see your point now, but in practice this isn't the issue you're making it out to be.
:-p
:)
The level of abstraction java provides does tend to lend itself to solving business processes and less to tuning for specific hardware. Its clearly not the right tool for every job. But when productivity and timelines are an issue I generally look to java first.
17 years for me
Old timer
How many of those years were in java?
Seems to work fine here.
What part is broken for you? The only real difference I see is that fedora has its own default theme that they try to make look like their theme for gnome.
It's not hardcoded file names that matter. It is things like threading and memory management that become suddenly improtant when stressing the system. With Java these are unknown and highly volatile factors that change from one platform to another. Things like adding a thread to a pool of a hundred (it's a random value) may grind whole system to a halt.
I seem to find the exact opposite to be true. Its pretty easy to put constraints on the amount of memory allocated to a VM. "Stress the system" as far as you'd like.
And things like setting up thread thread pools are trivial in java.
It's not a big deal with non-Java applications, because this things are factored in into the application. With Java however you are not even supposed to THINK about this stuff and that's what makes it evil. Not being directly exposed to the problems does not mean they don't happen. It just means that it is that much harder to deal with them.
Why wouldn't you think about system and application performance just because something is written in java?
I've been developing in several different languages for almost 16 years and almost ten in java. I'm really having trouble following your train of thought. Could you give examples?
Install everything in fedora, log in, type "switchdesk kde" in a konsole window.
Now your distro is KDE distro... for that user account anyway.
>>Ever heard of 'Java - write once, debug everywhere' expression ?
And that's so much worse than: '[some other language], compile everywhere, debug everywhere' ?
Of course you should test on your target platforms.
Writing in java makes a lot of things easy, but it doesn't stop people hard coding something like 'new File("C:\winnt\myconfig.conf");'
I don't how many times I've heard the 'Java - write once, debug everywhere' mantra used as though its some clever zinger that invalidates 12 years of Sun's research and development.
Its more than a little irritating.
I've been using Beanshell for a while and it works pretty well. I like that it allows to write scripts in java syntax.
My only gripe is that there isn't a safe way to kill a script that is running in a seperate thread. Groovy any better in that respect?
BTW, here's a little app I wrote using swing & beanshell.
I haven't had much need for this, but can this be done cross-platform with any language? When I think of IPC, I think of things like game trainers that manipulate seperate running game processes. And it may be just bad luck or an unrelated issue, but I've never gotten it to work in wine on linux.
Also, are C# and CLR able to do IPC? Seems like running things in protected memory space without pointer arithmetic would not lend itself well to this.
THEY USE IT BECAUSE IT WAS THE FIRST THING THEY GOT WORKING...
I think there is some merit to this statment.
I'd love to see postgreSQL added to the xampp package.
The nice thing about xampp is that you simply unzip it into a directory and suddenly you have a huge technology stack of apache, mysql, perl, php all ready to go for stand alone development.
I'm betting there are plenty of windows only developers that wouldn't mind giving either database a shot if they understood how easy it was to get started.
I haven't used it, but Cyrstal reports for Java has been around for a while. A demo of it came bundled with the last few version of jbuilder I've used.
1, 2, 3 and 5, on the other hand, should drive devs towards Python or Ruby.
They may be strengths of python and Ruby(i don't have much ruby experience), but can you give examples of how they do not apply to java?
Parent should not be modded "Troll". He brings up a valid point: if someone offered me a free car and said they would offer "service and support" for a fee, I would immediatly assume the car must be prone to having problems.
The problem with that analogy is that support is never free. Vendors of proprietary closed source software also charge for service and support.
When I first started using it I tried out several different helper libraries, but found that it all basically just came down to something really easy like this (with better formatting, of course):
//do stuff with xmlHttpRequest.responseXML.documentElement
// do error handling
var xmlHttpRequest;
function xmlRequest(url)
{
if (window.XMLHttpRequest) {
xmlHttpRequest = new XMLHttpRequest(); } else {
xmlHttpRequest = new ActiveXObject("Microsoft.XMLHTTP");
}
if (xmlHttpRequest) {
xmlHttpRequest.onreadystatechange = _processXmlResponse;
xmlHttpRequest.open("GET", url, true);
if (window.XMLHttpRequest) {
xmlHttpRequest.send(null);
} else {
xmlHttpRequest.send();
}
}
}
Do the work with the results something like this:
function _processXmlResponse()
{
if (xmlHttpRequest.readyState == 4) {
if (xmlHttpRequest.status == 200) {
} else {
}
}
}
YMMV but this generally worked on my target browsers.
BTW, nice site.
One suggestion when you hit the (+) to open an item it should turn into a (-) to close it from the same place.
Yes, I'm aware of that, and it proves my point. Some website invented a term for technologies that already existed, under different terminology, and the tech media adopted it to have a buzzword.
The problem is people were already using "DHTML" for technologies that existed before the xmlhttprequest object was seen even in IE. Making asynchronous calls isn't the same thing as just using what was loaded on the first call to a web page and linked css and javascript source files to maninuplate content.
Well, for one, DHTML doesn't sound like a window cleaner. Also, there's more to dynamic webpages than XML and Javascript.
The XML part of xmlhttprequest isn't nearly as cool as the fact that you have access to arbitrarily make an HTTPRequest programmatically. The XML part is just a convenience as it allows you to easily pull down only pull down relevant data(plus xml tags) and have it very quickly parsed into a Documen Object Model. You can also pull data from the DOM to do presentation work on the client side if you choose.
Java gets a bad rap for being slow based on arguments that once applied but have been fixed in modern version of the JVM. Performance has increased significantly since the early JVMs. The key word in your post was hated .
And on top of that, the "Applet loading..." or "Java initializing... " mesage stayed in the status bar of the browsers while java code and resources were being dowloaded through slow phone line internet connections.
True, but unlike other de-facto standards it has open source implementations that work every bit as well at the proprietary versions.
Gotcha.
I've only been using xmlhttprequest since firefox had support for it, so i use it as a baseline.
BTW,
google suggest is what I consider a good use of AJAX.
I hate seeing people use it to completely replace the full content of webpages thus leaving browser navigation controls useless.