Ubuntu On The Business Desktop

rchapman wrote to mention a Mad Penguin story about a consultant who installed Ubuntu on his work PC, and managed to use it for over a month before his boss even noticed. From the article: "This is not a typical review, because you've read enough of those. Instead, lets pretend I'm a typical worker, who just happens to have a soft spot for Open Source software. I want to use Linux, but I have a job to do. The price of Freedom should not be my salary. I don't have time to fiddle, all I care is whether or not it can do what I want, right now. So what do I want out of my system?"

Comments

I had a dream

[Anonymous Coward]

Gee, and I actually had a dream last night that everyone I knew was switching to ubuntu with me.

NT AD or Domain?

[painkillr]

How'd he get it on the domain?

Re:NT AD or Domain?

[mysqlrocks]

How'd he get it on the domain?

Samba, perhaps?

Re:NT AD or Domain?

[paranode]

There's an app called winbind that is used with Samba and it can tie you into a Domain using Kerberos tickets. Pretty neat.

More info:

http://www.samba.org/samba/docs/man/Samba-HOWTO-Co llection/winbind.html

Re:NT AD or Domain?

[cojsl]

The article references Winbind: "Two hours of installing Kerberos packages, messing around with Samba and Winbind, editing Pluggable Authentication Module [PAM] configuration files by hand, 'net mapping' groups, and more."

Re:NT AD or Domain?

[paranode]

Yeah it's not the easiest thing to do if you have to do it by hand but distributions are starting to have automagic configurations for this kind of setup nowadays. Not sure if Ubuntu does though.

Re:NT AD or Domain?

[styrotech]

Others have mentioned winbind, but you can also use pam_krb5 and nss_ldap for single sign on stuff with AD. There's a bit of a learning curve setting it up for those that don't yet know much about Kerberos, LDAP and AD internals though.

Re:NT AD or Domain?

[jimmyharris]

It's actually pretty easy to join a Linux desktop to an Active Directory if you know what you're doing - try the instructions at http://weblog.bignerdranch.com/?p=6.

Ubuntu hype

[joestar]

Well... I managed to use Mandrake(Mandriva) for more than 4 years on my business desktop with most people noticing that I rarely have any issue compared to their Windows workstation.

Viva Ubuntu! Glad to see that you are taking care of the Linux desktop! Anyway, it's not really new for me to live without any proprietary software on my business desktop, with minimum hassle.

Re:Ubuntu hype

[AKAImBatman]

In my experience, there is only one app that makes it impossible for the companies I've worked at to switch over to an alternative OS: Microsoft Access.

Love it or hate it (mostly hate it), it lets companies quickly create interfaces to larger databases. It's so simply and easy to do, that many developers don't realize (or perhaps care) that they'll be paying heavily for their choice later on when either their needs scale beyond Access, or Microsoft releases a new (usually incompatible) version.

Sadly, just about everyone I've spoken with has considered Access support to be unimportant to office conversions. "They should use a real database," they say. While that's a fine stance to take, that doesn't help companies that are already relying on MS Access. And if you take the emulation route to get Access support, you might as well just run Windows in the first place.

It's really too bad that the Access format is so widely ignored. Much of the groundwork has already been laid for reading/writing the format, and StarOffice/OSS have a real chance to make Access work correctly. IMHO, managers given the opportunity to use their existing Access applications on a better platform would jump at the chance to save money and support calls.

Re:Ubuntu hype

[Anonymous Coward]

I made the silly mistake of 'asking' if I can install Linux on an old unused PC at work.

The answer I was given is "Linux? I don't think we're licenced for that. So, no, you can't install it."

Re:Ubuntu hype

[Taladar]

Ignoring the Access format might be related to the fact that it sucks for any database size bigger than the ones you could comfortably maintain even in Excel or a plain text file.

Re:Ubuntu hype

[jurt1235]

Using SuSE with KDE on daily basis, sometimes somebody notices it, and then just does not understand how I am able to open all the Microsoft documents and how I can mail them MS docs. I have worked like this for 5 years now, no problems at all (ok, some tweaking needed in the past, but nowadays it is really boring, everything just works).

Re:Ubuntu hype

[AKAImBatman]

Let me repeat, that still doesn't help companies that have software written in Access.

Many companies use Access because it's easy for the moment. The costs later down the line are not something they consider.

And to address your point specifically, a large number of Access databases actually store no real data of their own. Instead they link off to a much larger server somewhere else, making them useful as a RAD (Rapid Application Development) front-end. The limitations of the software in this situation are even less clear to the developer, making the Access trap that much more dangerous.

Re:Ubuntu hype

[WalterODimm]

minimum hassle The amount of "hassle" is highly relative to the end user's abilities. A linux desktop might be fine for someone who is fairly technically savvy, but in my experience people who don't know how to CC someone in an email freak out when they have to deal with technology that is not "what they know". To them all new=bad.

Re:Ubuntu hype

[Mr. McGibby]

It's really too bad that the Access format is so widely ignored. Much of the groundwork has already been laid for reading/writing the format, and StarOffice/OSS have a real chance to make Access work correctly. IMHO, managers given the opportunity to use their existing Access applications on a better platform would jump at the chance to save money and support calls.

Decrypting the file format gets you about 1% of the way towards an Access work-alike. Even a working Access work-alike is only 5% of the way towards actually running all the Access-based apps out there. Most of these use a wide variety of COM objects only implemented on Windows. While this is fine for those running open source Access-work-alikes on Windows, it does nothing for us Linux fans living in a Windows based office. I'd love to run Linux at work, but it just isn't going to happen for this very reason.

Re:Ubuntu hype

[WalterODimm]

oops.. ^ sorry about the bold. I forgot the r in my br, html > me.. :(

Re:Ubuntu hype

[AKAImBatman]

Most of these use a wide variety of COM objects only implemented on Windows.

This is different from my own experience. The standard controls are usually the only ones used because:

1) Distributing ActiveX/COM controls is a PITA
2) Access doesn't correctly support the full range of controls. (I've seen plenty of controls that work fine in VB, fail miserably in Access.)

The real holy grail of Access support is the VBA language. All kinds of business logic tidbits are stuck into VBA.

Even if we do consider that ActiveX/COM controls are the real problem, making minor changes to use alternative controls is a lot less costly than rewriting the entire application. :-)

Re:Ubuntu hype

[ajs318]

Um. Have you tried phpmyadmin?

I use it all the time. Of course, you need Apache, MySQL and PHP; but they are all in the package repositories. And once you have them all working, and you are satisfied that your database schema is correct, you can just write your own front-end in PHP, that accesses through a web browser {if it's a corporate environment, you have the advantage of knowing which one} and has your company logo in it and everything.

Re:Ubuntu hype

[hevenor]

Access is the key. I thought about using Ubuntu when I first started my current position so I threw the Hoary Live CD in and spent a day with it. My network, email, dual display...everything I wanted was working within 20 minutes. Since the majority of my work is done remotely I thought I was in the clear. Access is a real buzzkill. My advice, stick one machine in a corner with ssh, vnc, and access. Whenever anything goes WINsane then light some incense and rub the machines case for luck.

Re:Ubuntu hype

[pllewis]

FYI...Openoffice.org 2.0 has an Access style database called Base that is very user friendly. Give it a try, hopefully it will be one less excuse for using MS Office apps. I'm still waiting on a program like Dia will replace MS Visio and read visio stencils. Dia is okay, but still not there. Need it for rapid drawings of rack elevations etc.

Cheers

Re:Ubuntu hype

[SydShamino]

For me, I expect it would be the Mentor Graphics EDA tools that would die a sudden death if I switched to a non-Windows system, as I would have little choice but to use them with WINE.

The tools are buggy enough in Windows. I can't imagine running them in WINE.

Re:Ubuntu hype

[Mr. McGibby]

I do agree that people do tend to use the default controls, but I disagree at your characterization of the issue. *alot* of companies, especially small ones, use the random non-standard control from time time.

1) Distributing ActiveX/COM controls is a PITA

Yes it is, but a lot of companies don't have to distribute stuff (especially access stuff) widely anyway, so this isn't an issue that stops people.

2) Access doesn't correctly support the full range of controls. (I've seen plenty of controls that work fine in VB, fail miserably in Access.)

But that doesn't mean that Joe Blow won't use insert-buggy-control-here if he can get it to work.

The real holy grail of Access support is the VBA language. All kinds of business logic tidbits are stuck into VBA.

That is an important part. That gets you maybe 5% closer to the goal.

All this also ignores the role of custom-built-controls. Lots of companies (not a lot, but enough that it counts), use their own COM objects. And that really kills the whole deal for them and Linux.

Re:Ubuntu hype

[iamdoctorron]

Hello, I have been using Ubuntu on the business desktop for about two years and I absolutely, positively LOVE it! It lacks for nothing. I'm a sysadmin for a large publishing company in Chicago, and when my boss noticed (after 23 months) that I'd been using Ubuntu/Gnome to successfully administer a Novell server/SAN, a subnet of OSX Macs, and a gaggle of '98, NT4, and XP Pro machines he nearly fell over. When he realized that I have gone that time with about 3 reboots (none of them necessary--all due to power failures that outlasted the UPS) he almost choked on his tongue! ;') He was so impressed that he asked me to implement Ubuntu on EVERY desktop that's now Windows-based in a very high-production environment once we implement our company-wide desktop upgrade next month. Ubuntu lacks for NOTHING. Its quick on doggy boxes, super stable, and easier to install than Windows. With RPM support its software library grows every day. And Gnome kicks butt! My only prior experience with a UNIX-like OS on the desktop has been FreeBSD, which I used to run a semi-large ISP for over four years. While it is also stable and almost legendarily secure, the availability of pre-compiled binaries is limited (PCBs are a boon for inexperienced users) and it just doesn't offer Ubuntu's main advantage--d/l it, burn it, boot it, run it -- and with mostly everything a new Linux user needs bundled in and ready to go! As long as you grasp the idea of an IPv4 address you CAN install Ubuntu with little or no hassle. As an aside, I also use it at home on an old G3 iMac to run routed/ftpd. Works like a charm, and installs just as easily. X/Gnome is just too slow on that box to be useful though, IMHO. After all, it IS 7 years old! I will never give up Ubuntu. Never. Kudos to the Ubuntu team, and I hope for all our sake that this revolutionary OS gets the recognition (and user share!) that it so well deserves. Regards, DoctorRon

Re:Ubuntu hype

[Master of Transhuman]

The question of Access is one about the cost of conversion, not whether Access is competitive with other databases - it isn't.

The cost of conversion depends on who you hire to do the conversion and how you do it (as well as, of course, how MUCH conversion you have to do - a couple systems versus everything being used in-house.)

Converting Access should not be a show-stopper if you're not paying someone $200-400/hour to do it.

As for "taking the emulation route", that's not the same as running Windows by a long shot. If Access is being used mostly as a front end, there's no reason it can't be stuck on a machine with remote access and used to access OSS databases while conversion to something else is being done over time. It just requires a little imagination on the part of the conversion people - a quality sadly lacking in most IT consultants and CIOs, unfortunately.

Also, what most people use Access for are systems that could easily be redone using cheap or no cost report generators and HTML-JavaScript data entry forms connected to an OSS database. Rather than mucking about with VBA scripts, Access forms and the like, the logic and GUI could easily be replicated using more advanced tools.

I'm doing work with Oracle Forms at the moment, and when I think of how much easier it is to do things in other tools (unless you are ALREADY an Oracle Forms wizard), it's ridiculous to use a huge, complicated tool that locks you in to that one tool - no matter how "easy" it's supposed to be (it never is, anyway.)

The real issue in all these cases is the simple fact that paying for vendor licenses - and more importantly, vendor lock-in - is INEVITABLY going to cost more AT SOME POINT than converting to more open standards, and it is ALWAYS cheaper to bite the bullet sooner than later. Any management that doesn't understand this is - well, typical management, apparently.

Re:Ubuntu hype

[emidln]

Actually, the application that keeps my company, or at least my group, on Windows is an industry standard app called CANoe. Basically, there isn't anything for Linux remotely close outside of a C library that I could use to write my own application. Our customers give us files in a binary format native to CANoe and we simply need the program. The program can only be used with proprietary hardware and that hardware only has drivers for Windows.

Btw, I've tried to access Access databases with OO.o 2.0 on Windows and it works just fine. I didn't have a very complicated set of forms, but it was more than sufficient.

Re:Ubuntu hype

[Anonymous Coward]

Ignoring the Access format might be related to the fact that it sucks for any database size bigger than the ones you could comfortably maintain even in Excel or a plain text file.

Typical arrogant sysadmin wannabe reply. "We use Access, so we'll need a platform that supports it." "Dude, Access is teh suXor, use something else." "Well, that would be nice, moving forward, but all of our legacy apps rely on it, so we're stuck with what we have." "Dude, Access it teh suXor, use something else."

What is it with you guys? Are you incapable of actually helping your customers (i.e., the people without whom you would be unemployed) fit a solution to their needs? Somebody mentioned creativity and IT workers in the same sentence elsewhere in this topic. My experience is that "creativity" to a typical IT worker really means "my way or the highway".

Thankfully at the Fortune 500 company that I work for, we've managed to train our IT workers to recognize the adage of "the right tool for the job". That means Windows, OSX, Solaris and Linux, depending upon the application. And yes, some of those applications involve Access. It was hard to accomplish, though - there are a lot of rigid-thinking, inflexible "sysadmins" who (thankfully) are now working elsewhere (or not working at all, given the state of the IT industry today).

---

Posted anonymously so that I don't have to read a dozen messages from thin-skinned zealots who can't face reality.

Re:Ubuntu hype

[xs650]

That's not a Linux problem, you obviously need to replace your customers.

Note to Linux zealots: Even though you are nodding your heads in agreement, that was humor.

Re:Ubuntu hype

[eleknader]

Kexi reads Microsoft Access databases.

See more at http://www.kexi-project.org/wiki/wikiview/index.ph p?MDBDriver

OpenOffice.org Base reads Access too:
http://dba.openoffice.org/ (MDB tools for Linux)

Oh, and so does Knoda::
http://www.knoda.org/

I'm sure that there are more apps that can read Access files. I think the Access functionality is done by mdbtools.

I've also used MS Access 2000 on Wine, and it worked quite well. I have to disagree with you about emulation: If you want to run GNU/Linux, and need one or few Win32 applications running on it, why not run them on Wine?

So not a big issue IMHO :)

Eleknader

Re:Ubuntu hype

[AKAImBatman]

The question of Access is one about the cost of conversion, not whether Access is competitive with other databases - it isn't.

That's why Access isn't used as a database. If that were the only problem, conversions would be cheap and easy. The real problem is that Access is used as a RAD tool for fast application development. As anyone who's taken the "Oh, we'll do a throw-away prototype first" route can attest, you inevitably get stuck with the design because it's simply too costly to reverse engineer all the bits of business logic that are now stuck in the app.

Sometimes companies bite the bullet anyway. These companies almost always find that the conversion is expensive, painful, and take months after the deployment of the initial release to actually meet the feature set of the original application.

Access is a trap, and it is one that Microsoft continues to use to keep companies bonded to MS Office for Windows. The fact that the OSS community has decided to ignore Access has only played into Microsoft's hands.

Re:Ubuntu hype

[skiflyer]

In my experience, there is only one app that makes it impossible for the companies I've worked at to switch over to an alternative OS: Microsoft Access.

I think the more you look around the more you'll see it's one app per business... I have no need for Access, but I have to run Quickbooks, and the current versions just don't work in Linux, and there's no vendor interest in making them work there, and the Crossover stuff is always about 2-3 versions behind in regards to which will run.

Re:Ubuntu hype

[cloudmaster]

Access is more than just a front-end to table viewing, it also generates reports + VB-like user interfaces and generally *does stuff* with the data. I love PHPMyAdmin and use it almost daily for MySQL admin tasks, but it is most certainly *not* a replacement for Access.

Re:Ubuntu hype

[davidsyes]

Well, if they NEED a front end to their databases, via a Linux desktop, then IBM should donate the code they own in Lotus Approach. Approach is a helluva lot EASIER for non-programmers and non-devs to use.

Granted, Approach has fewer bells and whistles (some of the stuff from FileMaker; no horizontal sliders and no tabbed interfaces ON a form (you can have forms presented with tabs, but if you have detail tables views or repeating panels on a form, you DON'T get sliders; your data will just be non-viewable on a crammed repeating panel...)

I wish the OO.o & Sun would tuck away the gauntlet and beg/cajole IBM into giving the CUBICLE dwellers the major app Linux needs: DESKTOP DATABASE FRONT END tools like APproach. NOTHING, I mean NOTHING in Linux land even TOUCHES Approach, unless you're a geek with time and drive to mimic Approach. And, so far as I see, NO one is trying to mimic Approach.

I guess IBM prefers to deprecate Approach and push Notes/Domino and other stuff, or watch determined USERS opt for WINE and Win4Lin and never have a resurrected SmartSuite codebase for LINUX.

Thanks a lot, IBM. Really, THANKS!

Re:Ubuntu hype

[h4rm0ny]

Well there are better products out there than Access and the reason IT experts are IT experts is because we have an interest in exploring new possibilities. You may find it offensive when someone says Access is inferior, try something else, but we find it more frustrating when people refuse to leave the nest they've grown up in.

Access is a shitty database and contrary to previous statements, I don't believe that it is incredibly wonderful for making a GUI in, either. I can knock up a beautiful HTML / CSS2 front end to a MySQL database in double quick time and I can do so in a fashion that is reasonably maintainable. The sheer ease with which someone who doesn't know what they're doing and has no skills in planning or coding can start hurling buttons on a form, leads (invariably in my experience) to an ugly, ill thought out and often buggy mess that takes at least as long to iron all the problems out of as it did to put together in the first place. The fact is, that people who know what they're doing are able to use other systems and people who don't know what they're doing think Access can transform them into methodical and qualified designers.

And I've never said 'Access is teh suXor' either. Strawman stereotypes lower your argument.

Caveat: The last Access system I used professionally was Access 2000. Maybe it has become wonderful in the interim.

Re:Ubuntu hype

[spagetti_code]

[flame retardant liberally applied]
Not to be a microsoft fanboy, but this whole article could have been rewritten as:
- Installed XP.
- Installed Office.
- everything just worked.

For all their ills (and there are quite a few), XP + Office + 2k3 server works very well.

Honestly - this guy spent weeks getting it all to work. He had to:
- troll through docs to find out how to get the VPN to connect.
- figure out how to get reliable access to the exchange server, and eventually sneak into the server room to turn on a service (just wait till the server admins find out about that one!). Lucky he had the admin password I guess.
- install a beta of firefox to get around some CPU issue
- undergo a process that is "not... for the faint of heart" to get networking going to the 2k3 server
and so on...

He may have meant this article as a compliment to Ubuntu and linux in the corporate environment, but its really a pretty damning statement about the poor state of readiness of linux for the corporate desktop.

BTW - I run Ubuntu on my corp desktop, and it does indeed require contortions.

Re:Ubuntu hype

[h4rm0ny]

This doesn't contradict what you're saying - you are right that PHP admin is not a substitute for the wizzo Reports and "Queries" of Access - but there isn't much that Access does that you can't do neatly with a little bit of SQL knowledge and stored procedures.

I guess the immediate response of people to this, would be to say I am elitest in thinking only people who can do SQL should be writing these things. So I'll pre-empt them by saying - yes, I am. But I'll also say that anyone who is working on this sort of thing professionally should be able to knock of this level of code fairly easily and if they can't, then I think most people are capable of picking up a sufficient level of knowledge in a week.

Where I'm coming from is that people should use the best tool for the job. If you want to say that Access is that tool, then I'll respect your opinion (though I'll happily discuss it if you're interested). However, the other options are not so hard to learn that this should affect the choice of system.

Re:Ubuntu hype

[towermac]

Too bad they never heard of Filemaker. Blows Access away and with version 8 it's a whole new ballgame. Not that that helps you linux users directly, but I assume they could port filemaker to linux if they wanted, and if there is demand, they will want to. They released a linux server once, then discontinued it. I guess peple likely to use filemaker (or access) are not likely to use linux for their server, and especially not for their desktop.

I mean, it's one little thing in your sea of applications, but having an access-killing desktop database program available might help you in your "Linux Everywhere" movement.

I'd help, but I've been evangelizing the mac for too many years and I am tired now.

Re:Ubuntu hype

[smchris]

Even version 1 had a simple interface built into the suite to do basic merges via unixODBC to MySQL or PostgreSQL. Seemed OK in my limited use.

Re:Ubuntu hype

[Anonymous Coward]

not so cool... failed to boot on my sata machine.

Re:Ubuntu hype

[Lord Kestrel]

You're lucky if that's the only problem you've had. You must not work for a manger who gets a woody thinking about Microsoft Project.

Re:Ubuntu hype

[Anonymous Coward]

[shields down, not a flame :]

You have a point, which the author sorta makes towards the end of the piece anyway (check "Summary"). I thought the point he was trying to make overall is that Ubuntu is close to equivalent to the function of a 'conventional' business desktop, and even superior in some aspects. Although clearly it took some 'contortions' to achieve this - none of the shops I've worked in would take a positive view of people just changing stuff on production boxes, there'd be disciplinary action, pretty much guaranteed, so how practical this approach is in the real world I dunno.

The point you have to consider though is why this state of affairs exists. Most of the contortions are to co-exist with MS-specific things, and yeah, they're the market leader, but not necessarily the most standards-compliant (Oh jeez, I'm gonna regret that... save the flames, kids, it's just technology :) or forthcoming with open documentation so others can compete. I suggest if the task was to equip two average businesses with technology solutions, one open source, one proprietary, including all aspects from desktop to back office, the exercise may have a different set of conclusions.

Oh, and as an aside, neither Win nor Lin "just work" all the time... I've worked in many environments and have come across some crazy-ass behavior from both of them. Still prefer Debian for my 'home' box, tho... WFM, YMMV and all that.

Re:Ubuntu hype

[rtb61]

The real question about M$ access is why are the astroturfers focusing on it so much. Every time there is a Linux article the Micro Softie schills jump out and try to flood the first page on /. with access postings both fore and against and attempt to drown out any discussion on what the Linux article is actually about.

Don't get caught by the access trolls, they know the database sucks and if it wasn't part of their office suite it wouldn't even exist any more as it loses out versus all the other superior data base packages. They are just hyping it up because they hope to raise the issue in open office like it is a major problem.

Just more endlessly annoying Micro Softie B$. This article is about using ubuntu as an office desktop which unlike the M$ B$ claims it ie readliy feasible to do in most business enviroments. Just lately the M$ trolls and to karma scared to use their own lower numbered /. ids and are relying upon modded up anonymous postings to flood a discussion with off topic postings.

Re:Ubuntu hype

[cloudmaster]

The point is that Access doesn't just make it easy to put together queries and stuff - it can actually build nice little front-end applications for people who don't know that they're working with a database - or only know that much. Sure, it can be used by non-technical people to create applications for even less-technical people, but it's essentially a RAD tool for database apps. Maybe calling it VB with easy database tools would be more appropriate. It's more like you could write phpMyAdmin in Access, and Access is closer to being PHP than to a PHP app.

I've spent several years writing database frontends in mostly PHP, with a good chunk of perl and some Cold Fusion 'n Java thrown in. When it comes time to get the seceretary set up with something easy that she can use to search through and edit the asset database, though, setting up an ODBC conenction and piping her through Access is one quick and easy way to get to the goal with a native look and feel. People just don't take web apps as seriously as something that looks like a "real windows program", and lots of places already have Access bundled with Office anyway. Given the time, I'd always choose something else. Who here always has time to do everything exactly the way they'd want to, though? :)

Re:Ubuntu hype

[cHiphead]

ODBC.

Re:Ubuntu hype

[AKAImBatman]

Because ODBC will run VBA scripts on forms and generate printable reports on a database that has no data.

We're you paying attention at all?

Re:Ubuntu hype

[Anonymous Coward]

My experience has been that every company has at least one app that runs only on Windows and is critical to the business - things like Citect (SCADA software), RSLogix (PLC programming) and Vulcan (mine modelling, ported from Unix). The bigger the company, the more likely they are to have specialised software that only runs on Windows.

Re:Ubuntu hype

[Master of Transhuman]

I agree. But my point is that Access shouldn't be allowed to be a trap by the Linux consultant confronted with it. It can be dealt with, but one is going to have to convince the client that the same facilities that be provided by other tools - and perhaps even more easily (since Access isn't all that easy to work with even for RAD.)

This might be a tough sell, so it would be advisable to have some evidence to back it up. Grab some moderately large Access system from somewhere and reverse-engineer it using more powerful and flexible OSS tools and make a demo.

Re:Ubuntu hype

[ajs318]

No, PHPMyAdmin is not a complete replacement for Access. But it is good for mucking around with tables in some really powerful ways -- and for learning SQL.

Once you have finalised your database schema, then you can throw together your own PHP application to generate reports and otherwise *do stuff* with the data. You can even re-use bits of your PHP code in the xext one you write {or not, if you decide it was bollocks}.

The idea is that you use the scripting language {in this case PHP but any of the others will do} as a generality-of-purpose abstraction layer. Once you have written {or ripped off} functions to generate things like drop boxes, text areas, radio button sets, date selectors and the like, it's not that hard at all.

And when I wrote my form element functions, I did something particularly fancy. Calling the function generates the necessary HTML directly with echo statements, but the function returns a chunk of JavaScript which validates the selection. If it's not a required field then I call it in void context. Otherwise I save it in a scalar variable, and end up with something like this:

$js = "";
...
$js .= dropbox("colour", array("white","blue","yellow"), true, 1);
$js .= phoneno("tel", $tel);
phoneno("mobile") // optional - doesn't need validating
...
echo "<script>\nfunction validate_form() {\n$js\n}\n</script>\n";

There probably is a better way of doing it, but this works for me.

Re:Ubuntu hype

[drsmithy]

What is it with you guys? Are you incapable of actually helping your customers (i.e., the people without whom you would be unemployed) fit a solution to their needs?

Yes. Which is why they usually[0] remain sysadmins instead of graudating up to consultants, architects, managers or CTOs.

[0] Thisis not to ignore the sysadmins who remain sysadmins because they want to, but still understand the concept of "service".

Re:Ubuntu hype

[cloudmaster]

It's not even a partial replacement for Access - they do two very different things for two very different target markets. Developing a PHP application and dragging some controls onto a window in Access aren't any where close to being comparable. It takes 0 programming knowledge to create useful Access applications. None. Just a vauge understanding of what columns are available and possibly what kind of data go in each, combined with having seen a Windows program before ("oh, you type in a text box, and select from a list using a drop-down or radio buttons"). To get simlar functionality with a web app (say, PHP), you need to know PHP, HTML, JavaScript, SQL, and probably have some experience with cross-browser development as well as CSS. Your typical computer user can not sit down and learn all of that stuff in an afternoon, wheras someone can start creating Access programs within a day or so.

Access is the devil for other reasons, but it's *way* more than something that shows tables in an editable form. That's why it's so darned hard to get rid of. If it was as simple as using PHPMy admin or similar, there's be lots of replacements... :)

Re:Ubuntu hype

[51mon]

OpenOffice Base attempts to clone the Access experience whilst creating the stuff underneath in slightly more sensible formats.

Pig slow, and not Access, but it might suit some people trying to do this sort of thing. Certainly it isn't difficult, and probably requires less know-how than Access.

Freedom?

[GypC]

The price of Freedom should not be my salary.

Exactly! That's why I surf porn on the company network. The fascists won't be telling me what to do...

BBL, I have a special meeting in HR to go to. I wonder if I'm getting a raise.

Re:Freedom?

[paranode]

BBL, I have a special meeting in HR to go to. I wonder if I'm getting a raise.

Be sure to tell them that you probably only do about 15 minutes of real, actual work. When they get surprised mention that you are not being challenged and have no motivation. That raise will come your way! ;)

Re:Freedom?

[thrillseeker]

"I just stare at my desk, but it looks like I'm working. I do that for probably another hour after lunch too, I'd say in a given week I probably only do about fifteen minutes of real, actual, work."

Re:Freedom?

[dtfinch]

Also tell them how many bosses you have.

Re:Freedom?

[Anonymous Coward]

BBL?

don't you mean BBW?

Re:Freedom?

[b4k3d b34nz]

"The thing is, Bob, it's not that I'm lazy. It's just that I just don't care."

2560x2048 ?

[graphicartist82]

2560x2048 spread across 2 monitors? I hope he means 2560 x 1024 .. Otherwise that'd be one helluva 17" LCD monitor!

Re:2560x2048 ?

[CaptnMArk]

maybe he has 2 pivoted 2048x1280 screens

Re:2560x2048 ?

[menkhaura]

Four monitors perhaps, at 1280x1024 each? That seems reasonable (I don't know if it is possible, though; xinerama may have some way to take care of it)

Re:2560x2048 ?

[Janek Kozicki]

2560x2048 spread across 2 monitors? I hope he means 2560 x 1024 .. Otherwise that'd be one helluva 17" LCD monitor!

I guess that he is speaking about virtual desktop. Probably he has two 1280x1024 monitors. But 2560x2048 would also work with two 800x600 monitors :>

Re:2560x2048 ?

[manastungare]

Mounted vertically, maybe? I used to have two Dell 24" for a total of 2400 x 1920.

Re:2560x2048 ?

[skintigh2]

Don't be hard on him, he's just a software guy. At least he didn't call himself a systems *engineer* /would love to see a sys admin try to do a systems engineer's work (how's your physics and mechanical engineering skills?)

Re:2560x2048 ?

[Anonymous Coward]

Obviously not an English guy either. "Sleep is for the *weak*"

Re:2560x2048 ?

[Steven W00ston]

But how do you spread a four monitor desktop over two monitors?

Re:2560x2048 ?

[Anonymous Coward]

*whoosh*

Good to hear!

[superdan2k]

I have a new laptop arriving at my office today (rather than have it delivered to my apartment steps where some shiftless hippie layabout can gank it), and I'm planning on running Ubuntu nearly fulltime (with the occasional venture into Windows to run Civ 3 and Civ 4). Given all the shit with my Windows laptop here, I may just try to make the fulltime switch.

Re:Good to hear!

[Anonymous Coward]

which laptop are you getting ? i am planning on buying one soon and mean to run ubuntu on it as well, but i'm not sure which to get.. i realize this is sorta off topic. but it would be a boon to know..

Re:Good to hear!

[Anonymous Coward]

fwiw, I installed Breezy Badger on my Dell 600m and not only was it a perfectly smooth install, even ipw2200 wireless worked out of the box which I had not seen previously

Re:Good to hear!

[bigalsenior]

the ipw2200 installed but it refuses to connect to a wep or wpa encrypted network antone know what im doing wrong? the system is a dell latitude c610 with 256 megs ram.

Re:Good to hear!

[Anonymous Coward]

I have a Dell Inspirion 6000 running ubuntu right now, have had no problems with it what-so-ever. Wireless words stock, yet there isn't much use for wireless in a dorm anyway.

I did notice that it doesn't default with full dvd movie decoder support installed, but you can just apt-get the packages easy enough.

Re:Good to hear!

[Anonymous Coward]

I hope your colleagues except your change. How long do you have to live fulltime before the doctors will perform the operation and remove any unnecessary external wobbly bits?

Re:Good to hear!

[matthew5]

Take a look at the ubuntuforums...here's a link that helped me get wpa working perfectly with my ipw2200. http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=26623

Re:Good to hear!

[Anonymous Coward]

https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HardwareSupportMachinesLap tops

there you go

I worked at a place one

[saskboy]

One time I went to fix someone's Windows computer at work. I found it to be very different from the standard machine image, it was missing something like Microsoft Word. He mentioned that he'd installed linux on the machine, and put Windows back on himself. I didn't know what to do, so I told my boss what I'd seen, and it turns out tinkering with the software in that way, at this company, was a big no-no. I don't know to know what happened to that employee, but thumb screws might have been involved.

Before you tinker with a work computer, ask! You won't like the answer, but there won't be any thumb screws.

Re:I worked at a place one

[networkBoy]

Yes, but this guy had the sense to install a spare HDD for the experiment, thus "Undo" was fairly easy.
I use Cygwin at work for the same reason you just mentioned. Since I'm a Dev I get some liberties on my system (I could install Linux and not get yelled at), but I very well may loose IT support. That is something I would rather not do as even though they are nearly helpless, at least they get yelled at when a patch breaks something.
-nB

Re:I worked at a place one

[Anonymous Coward]

Using any unapproved operating system on a computer where I work -- even using a live Linux CD -- is a firing offense. It is considered a risk to the security of the network...seems as though our network people think that using a Live Linux CD can import a virus to bring a Windows network down. Yes, that's exactly what I was told! I was also told that using Linux posed a problem in that they 'didn't have tracking tools for Linux so couldn't tell what web sites were visited or what was downloaded or uploaded.' That did sound more reasonable.

Re:I worked at a place one

[meringuoid]

seems as though our network people think that using a Live Linux CD can import a virus to bring a Windows network down. Yes, that's exactly what I was told!

Well, they can. In theory. It would be insane to actually do it that way, mind...

I was also told that using Linux posed a problem in that they 'didn't have tracking tools for Linux so couldn't tell what web sites were visited or what was downloaded or uploaded.' That did sound more reasonable.

That actually sounds less reasonable. Surely they should be logging your internet activity at the network gateway? Isn't that a hell of a lot easier than maintaining spyware on every individual machine?

Re:I worked at a place one

[jimicus]

since they give you a computer which you can install anything on

Stop right there. Sometimes IT people and even developers can install anything on, generally everybody else gets the system locked down to a greater or lesser extent.

Fascist? Maybe.
Reduces number of calls to the helpdesk? Definitely.
Reduces the risk of a rather nasty audit by the BSA? Definitely.
Reduces the risk of inadvertantly introducing malware? Definitely.
Inconvenience to users? Only if you haven't got the good sense to find out what your users need and make sure they've got it.

Re:I worked at a place one

[SmellTheCoffee]

My wife works for an electronics company and they are trying to bring some linux servers in the company. I've been using Linux at home for about 2 years now and she's been watching me work and tinker while listening my occasional rants about the **OS-with-biggest-market-share**. She naturally got interested over time and wanted to use Linux on her office IBM Thinkpad but she wanted to start out with installing it herself. Knowing how enterprises have PC's with don't-touch-it policy, I suggested that she talk to the IT person in her company about her plans. I was pretty sure she would get a no-no but to my surprise the IT department said GO AHEAD! do what you want to. We will reimage your laptop with windows...but don't forget to backup your stuff first.

Re:I worked at a place one

[saskboy]

"You're lucky you're not my colleague."

I feel the same way.

I didn't tell my boss to get the guy in trouble, since I didn't even realize it was a serious problem, or company policy. I was asking him the best way to fix the system.

Re:I worked at a place one

[Hrvat]

That would be great if the system to get new software installed actually worked. Right now I can't install anything on my machine and I had to fight with the help desk in order to run Tomcat on my machine for local development. I can't even open the system calendar.
There is no way for me to get updates, but more importantly I can't try out new tools. There is downtime during work and I'd rather spend it figuring out a new tool than hitting refresh on Slashdot every 10 mins.

Re:I worked at a place one

[darkgumby]

I used ghost4unix to make a backup image of my new Dell HD before I wiped XP off and installed nice shiny Gentoo. So far none of the suits care, and it's been 3 years in January. If necessary I can be back to XP in about an hour.

Re:I worked at a place one

[skribble]

I work for a rather large corporation. We run many different OS's around here (Well, Windows/Macs) as desktops (Our corporate email system is exchange so Lookou... Outlook I mean is necessary, at least until they update their exchange server) and they are all locked down fairly tightly. That said they have a DMZ for running test machines of whatever nature you need to run including Linux. Additionally I find that if you have a business case for something they are accommodating. For example the other day I wanted to install OpenOffice.org 2.0 (As more people work with OpenDoc, we need more effective way's to work with it, and OOo 2 seems to be a reasonable way to deal). I emailed the person in charge and was given the appropriate rights (temporarily) to install the software. The point being that:

A) Sometimes if you ask you actually can get what you want.

B) That said if you don't have a *real* good reason for doing what you want to do, then you will likely be denied.

Re:I worked at a place one

[daikokatana]

Yes, but this guy had the sense to install a spare HDD for the experiment, thus "Undo" was fairly easy.

While this may very well be, I've worked for a client where the policy did not tolerate you even thinking about installing another HDD.

At said client's workplace, you get a Windows machine, with a default software kit necessary for your job. All other software/tools/utilities you want to install must be cleared by a) your boss, b) boss of the department and c) the internal IT department and will be installed by party c.

Installing your own software, tinkering with machines/hardware in any way has ALWAYS resulted in getting yourself fired on the spot.

Not a very friendly environment, you might think. True, but it helps avoid situations like the one I've seen at another client, where the manager runs around the building screaming "we've gotten word the BSA is coming - delete all your junk right now!!!", after which just about everyone frantically tries to rid their machine from said junk. Half an hour later, the BSA arrived.... oops.... You don't want to know the fine. Or the fine the company which tipped us off got.

Re:I worked at a place one

[radarsat1]

while listening my occasional rants about the **OS-with-biggest-market-share**. She naturally got interested over time

Cool! When *I* rant about this kind of thing, people just kind of roll their eyes and tell me to shut up about it already!

You're a lucky man.

Re:I worked at a place one

[WhiteWolf666]

It always a good idea to ask, but you should be tricky with how you phrase the question.

"Can I install Linux on my desktop?"

Will often be answered with a "No. Don't mess with the network."

"I'd like to experiment with Linux on my desktop. This won't interfere with my regular work, will help me associate better with my Linux clients, and I won't be replacing Windows; they'll be installed side-by-side. Plus, there's the potential to save the company $X per client if I can find a working configuration!"

Will often be answered with a "Wow. I've heard of this Linux thing on the news. Sounds like a great idea for you to look into; don't let it interfer with your regular work, and keep me appraised on your progress."

No matter what you want to do in the workplace, you've got to sell it. Change, without arguments for it, is risk, and risk alone. Change, for the purpose of _research_, is investment. Investment, plus minimized risk= return.

Just my 2 cents, but thats how you talk to a PHB.

Re:I worked at a place one

[networkBoy]

True enough about the BSA. We have automated software audits that run as system, thus as a user (even with admin rights as us devs have) you can not bypass or cancel the audit. If the audit sees software not in it's list of approved software (known freeware &&|| OSS, Site Licensed software, or software the system knows you should have), you are asked to confirm you have a licence. Perodically a LivePerson (TM) checkes that you did not lie, if you did you get your pee-pee whacked (officially, and perminant record). Do it too many times and you will be fired. The rule even extends to shareware. You can't use it if you've passed your free trial (those with unlimeted use, but reduced functinality are fine). All that I agree with, it's a legal issue.

As to Linux, my company does not mind if you install a second HDD and run linux (unless you violate security policy). They assume if you are smart enough to get Linux running on the network to the point of logging in and connecting to the servers, you are smart enough to adhere to the common sense security policy we have. You do, however, loose IT support if you install Linux on the same drive as the IT build of Windows. As it is I've had issues with some security patches killing CygWin, and I was on my own for that as well.
-nB

Re:I worked at a place one

[IANAAC]

... but because they don't have anything like that for other OS's ...

Check out a product called BladeLogic. It does that and more for several platforms.

Re:I worked at a place one

[foo fighter]

Patching is part of it, but the biggest reason is because of internal support costs. It's easier to troubleshoot, fix, or replace a machine if it is one of a thousand mostly identical machines. And you may be /able/ to install any software, but most places have written policies prohibiting it. They only reason you are able to is because working as a non-administrative user on Windows is often impossible because of poorly written applications -- often line-of-business apps written in house that are required to get the job done.

Re:I worked at a place one

[cayenne8]

"Before you tinker with a work computer, ask!"

Better than that...don't tinker with it if you are going to depend on others for support on it. If you take care of it yourself...ok, but, don't potentially fsck it up, and expect the IT repair guys to fix it.

Re:I worked at a place one

[cayenne8]

"...where the manager runs around the building screaming "we've gotten word the BSA is coming - delete all your junk right now!!!"

Hmm...I can't imagine that using Linux or other open source stuff would give the BSA any problems even if they DID do an audit??

Re:I worked at a place one

[jimicus]

Hence my final point:

Inconveniences the user - Only if you haven't got the good sense to find out what they need and make sure they've got it

Re:I worked at a place one

[freeweed]

Surely they should be logging your internet activity at the network gateway? Isn't that a hell of a lot easier than maintaining spyware on every individual machine?

You'd think so. At least, to check for the usual NSFW sites, viruses, etc.

These days it's not about that though. It's about knowing each and every minute spent "not being productive". Spyware can track to the second just what it is you're doing on company time.

I'd hate to see my Slashdot allotment :)

Thankfully, most employers I've seen don't use this sort of stuff for actively searching out problems. Mostly it's to have some more ammo when firing an unproductive employee.

Re:I worked at a place one

[labratuk]

You do realise that the BSA guys are just a couple of dudes some companies have hired to stand around looking threatening don't you?

You don't have to let them do anything. You don't even have to let them in. They don't have any special powers. They have as much right to come and check you out as I do to knock on Sony's front door and force them to let me check all of their systems for GPL violations.

Re:I worked at a place one

[daikokatana]

Hmm...I can't imagine that using Linux or other open source stuff would give the BSA any problems even if they DID do an audit??

True, but I can also imagine that if you allow employee A to use Linux instead of Windows, employee B demands to be allowed to install (insert software package here) which may or may not be open source etc...

And believe me, once you allow people to install A, B, or C on their own, they'll do just about anything to install a big part of the remainder of the alphabet.

Re:I worked at a place one

[daikokatana]

You do realise that the BSA guys are just a couple of dudes some companies have hired to stand around looking threatening don't you?

You don't have to let them do anything. You don't even have to let them in.

Not my business - it's my managers task to know & handle that. Besides, we got away with a small fine of just over 25000 euros, so no complaining from our part.

Why the boss didn't notice

[external400kdiskette]

Any boss that can look at a desktop for a month and not notice a completely different operating system is an idiot, but it explains why he didn't notice for a month, "and that was only because he happened to glance at my screen". Not very surprising.

Having said that if your entire business and profit revolves around profit even if you can work on Ubuntu or whatever it's probably a better idea to work with Windows since your dealing with clients and windows related issues. But whatever makes him happy.

Re:Why the boss didn't notice

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe I'm reading too much into your comment, but are you saying Windows may be more profitable for consultants?

Re:Why the boss didn't notice

[Otter]

Yeah, I once had a coworker who simply stopped showing up to work altogether and it took well over a month for our boss to notice. I don't find this story quite as astonishing as "Simon" seems to think I should.

Re:Why the boss didn't notice

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe I'm reading too much into your comment, but are you saying Windows may be more profitable for consultants?

I thought that was implied in the article. When Windows breaks and consultants are called in to fix it, more $$ for the consultants.

Linux Addict

[kspiteri]

My name is Simon, I am a Linux addict, and this is my story.

So long for Linux Anonymous.
--
Run for Fun

Me too

[psbrogna]

I'm an IT professional that's been using Unbuntu at work for about 2 months know. Everything works fine (email, internet, Office compatible applications, etc). I do miss MS Access (Ubuntu doesn't have latest version of OOO which would have included an Access counterpart). MySQL CC or MySQL Admin+Query Browser aren't as easy to use (though they are faster because all queries are pass through).

I've been using Suse OSS 10 at home and like it a little better- more robust repositories slightly more stable.

I will say that when the next desktop o/s upgrade occurs at my company it may not be as hard as I thought to put Linux on the candidate list because the number of non-IT employees that are switching to Linux at home on their own (without any evangelizing by me) is pretty high. This will certainly make it an easier sell if I want to consider Linux on the desktop at work rather than the PIA-Du Jour from Redmond.

Re:Me too

[LDoggg_]

(Ubuntu doesn't have latest version of OOO which would have included an Access counterpart).

I have very little experience with ubuntu(mostly fedora user), but I know this isn't true.
I installed ubuntu in vmware the other day was able to have it upgrade to open office 2 without any problems.

Re:Me too

[psbrogna]

Well one of us is leaving something out.

My Ubuntu did not come with OO 2 and with the standard repositories, I have not been offered it as an option when using the Ubuntu Upgrade Manager. I'm not saying I couldn't go get it myself but this trial is to see how Ubuntu works if I keep the packages reasonably close to what Ubuntu expects. Most issues w/Linux (or for any o/s for that matter) arise when you start dumping all kinds of unmanaged, un qa'd combinations of components on the same box. Part of the value of a distro in a workplace to me will be managing the package selection for me.

Re:Me too

[DoctorPepper]

Um, perhaps you should upgrade to 5.10, that includes OOo 2.0 (1.9.129 pre-release, actually), and OOo Base, which is the Access counter-part.

Re:Me too

[AppyPappy]

I do a lot of Access development and it's a waste. I'm a programmer. Access is supposed to be an end-user tool. The end-users can't figure out Access for snot. So I have to do all the devlopment of reports, forms, modules and queries. I SHOULD be using a better tool and database than Access but we are sold on Access because it is a good end-user tool.

Freaking circular logic. We would be better off creating a real database in MySQL or Postgres or Oracle and using an ODBC link into Excel since the users understand Excel...somewhat.

Access is a PIG. It pisses me off.

And I'm not using Ubuntu because it just don't sound American.

Re:Me too

[arkanes]

The thing neither of you are saying is which release of Ubuntu you used and what timeframe you installed them in. The current version of Ubunut includes OO 2, and it has been backported to the previous version, which didn't ship with it. I do not believe, however, that the OO 2 packages are considered upgrades for the OO 1 ones, because it's possible to run them in parellel. So if you installed from an older release you would have OO 1, and you would not have been prompted to upgrade. Installing OO 2 from the repository via Synaptic will probably work fine.

Re:Me too

[LDoggg_]

Right you are. I'm using 5.04

I should have said that it was installed from the repository, not upgraded.
I have both Open Offices coexisting.

Re:Me too

[Directrix1]

Thats because your Ubuntu is the previous version. You need to dist-upgrade. OOo2.0 is in the repositories for the new version of Ubuntu.

Re:Me too

[psbrogna]

Right- I'm running 5.04 Hoary Hedgehog... I know there are later versions and eventually I will upgrade. But the fact that I do have to upgrade is significant within the context of the evaluation of the given distro.

I am evaluating Ubuntu primarily because of the simplicity of the install & the seemingly effective QA process that occurs in managing the distro repositories. For this reason, it's understandable that they're not the fastest in including the latest 3rd party (OO) packages (for example compared to Fedora). It's a worthy tradeoff, especially in production commercial environment.

The averge linux evangelist (myself included) tends to forget how much more aggresive they are as far as upgrading as fast as they can. Obviously this is not a good practice in a production environment. IMHO, Suse (specifically OSS 10) seems to be a little bit ahead of the curve as far as including later releases than Ubuntu but still doing a decent QA job. On the other hand it's not as simple or as fast an install as Ubuntu and the thud factor on the HD footprint is bit heavier.

My goal is to determine if I can realistically make the recommendation to convert the small company (60 seats) I am the IT director for to a Linux desktop when the time comes, and I do feel like it's not far off. There are passionate freaks on either side of this issue as any slashdot reader can see. Getting at the truth is a complex issue.

Re:Me too

[namekuseijin]

"I'm not using Ubuntu because it just don't sound American"

Does Debian sound american to you? RedHat, perhaps? is it just the sound of the word or the fact that it was developed in another country? You're aware that by using Ubuntu, you're not making dollar go outside USA, don't you?... what's the problem, then?

Re:Me too

[poofyhairguy82]

Right- I'm running 5.04 Hoary Hedgehog... I know there are later versions and eventually I will upgrade. But the fact that I do have to upgrade is significant within the context of the evaluation of the given distro.

A. The stable version of OO.org2 did not exist with the database program at the time Hoary was released- it would have been impossible for Hoary or any distro released around the time it did to satisfy your needs.

B. One of the benefits of Ubuntu of how easy it is to upgrade.

C. The next release -Dapper- is intended for Enterprise use as it will be supported on the desktop for years. Hoary was only the second release of Ubuntu ever.

Re:Me too

[Anonymous Coward]

FWIW, one of the developers has finished Breezy (5.10) packages of the final release version.

Stick "deb http://people.ubuntu.com/~doko/OOo2 ./" in your sources.list and it'll upgrade your pre-release to final (with one small bitch about a package being needed, but since its just replacing pre-release with release counterparts, I ignored it :-)

Found this on the Ubuntu Backports forum, don't know if it'll be included in the Breezy Backports repository when it starts up properly or whether it'll just stay as a developer package.

Re:Me too

[Anonymous Coward]

Crap, forgot about the automatic URL thing...obviously don't put the "[ubuntu.com]" bit in if you see it in the above post.

a 2560x2048 desktop?

[Anonymous Coward]

a 2560x2048 desktop spread across two monitors

Isn't that supposed to be 2560x1024?

Haven't used Windows...

[eno2001]

...on my desktop for about five years here at work now. To be honest, if you know what you're doing with computers, there's no reason to stick with Windows on your desktop in a Windows environment. For those apps that you HAVE to have, there is Wine and 'rdesktop'. When I need to do some Windows admin stuff, I just connect to one of our servers with 'rdesktop'. And I got most of the basic apps installed under Wine if there was no Linux equivalent. Linux gives you everything you need and more than Windows ever could. And of course uptime and reliability... we won't talk about that. Suffice it to say that when my Windows using co-workers are scrambling to apply critical updates, clean up worm/virus issues and griping about malware, I'm always up and running without a glitch.

Re:Haven't used Windows...

[Alworx]

Please help me guys...

I really can't understand all these issues with Windows desktops! At my (very small) company we have 4 windows pcs and a Linux file/mail server. We have never had half a minute's worth of downtime since 2001, except maybe when during the summer I switched the last PC over from 2K di XP.

Malware? Never. Virii? None. Patches? Just a question of clicking "next" a couple of times.

The trick? No one is allowed to install anything and all users run with minum priviledges. Sounds banal? It should! :-)

Add RDP and SSH and you can administer anything with out burning calories!

Re:Haven't used Windows...

[Skye16]

>> To be honest, if you know what you're doing with computers, there's no reason to stick with Windows on your desktop in a Windows environment.

I have a really good reason. I'd be fired. End of story.

Re:Haven't used Windows...

[Viol8]

"those apps that you HAVE to have, there is Wine and 'rdesktop'."

*cough* Yeah , WINE is so 100% compatible *cough*. Sorry , much as I despise
windows , you'll find lots of firms require various windows apps to be used
(no , not just virus checkers) that WINE simply isn't up for. In fact from my
own experiments running WINE , it has enough problems running common apps like
Office , never mind more esoteric , possibly in-house programs.

Re:Haven't used Windows...

[Anonymous Coward]

say it with me........Viruses.... There, wasn't that easy? Virii and Viri are made up words that have nothing to do with the the word virus. They are a bastardized fake latin pluralization. The correct plural of virus is viruses.

Re:Haven't used Windows...

[jdgreen7]

To be honest, if you know what you're doing with computers, there's no reason to stick with Windows on your desktop in a Windows environment

Once again, I call BS. I hate Windows problems as much as the next guy, but there are certain applications that only run in Windows environments. In fact, there are MANY applications that only run in certain environments. WINE, as good as it may be, still falls WAY short of making every Windows-based app work successfully on Linux (let alone trying to get it working on a 64-bit machine at all - see Ubuntu 5.10's repository for AMD64).

In my industry, there are no applications designed for any OS but Windows that handle all of the government regulations that we need to comply with. There are a couple of web-based products, but either their quality is very poor, or you are required to store your data on their servers. Unacceptable. At the moment, unless you have a ton of free time to devote to writing all of your software in-house, and you also have the skills to make that software cross-platform, easy to use, etc., some people/companies are forced to remain on Windows.

You also mention rdesktop, which is fine, but you still have to have a Windows terminal server configured to make that happen. Some software doesn't run nicely in a Terminal Server environment, plus, if your users need to access that software, you still have to pay for a Windows File/Print CAL in addition to the Terminal Server CAL, so there's no cost savings that way, either.

I love Linux's philosophy and general framework as much as the next geek, but to make a blanket statement like "There is NO reason to run Windows" is a bit far-fetched. There are plenty of reasons to run Windows, just as there are plenty of reasons to run Linux. It's still a choice, and Windows will remain until every vendor starts designing apps to be cross-platform or specifically targeting Linux/MacOSX, etc. But, for now, Windows is where 90% of their clients are, and they need to pay bills, too. Hopefully, that will continue to change.

Re:Haven't used Windows...

[arkanes]

In-house stuff tends to work *better* than Office under Wine. Office makes extensive use of rare and obscure API calls (even when there are better ones) and for reasons unknown to me provides all of it's own (extensive) widget and UI scaffolding. In-house apps tend to use Windows provided interfaces (mostly via MFC). Really, Office is almost a platform of it's own - it installs a lot of "platform" style stuff, like hooking & replacing the standard clipboard, the "find fast" crap on older versions, etc.

Office may be common, but it's hard to emulate. More "normal" apps, especially your standard "whipped up in MFC in 3 months by our in house dev team" stuff is far more likely to run without a hitch.

Re:Haven't used Windows...

[eno2001]

Where I work there is only one application that matters that runs on Windows and it runs very well under Wine. So in my situation, there was no reason to stick with Windows. We don't use Exchange, so I don't need Outlook and even if we did, I'd use Evolution instead. Of course I'm also not an "underling" who would get fired for making such a decision. That IS a valid reason for sticking with Windows and it's not a technological one, it's political.

Re:Haven't used Windows...

[eno2001]

So all your IT co-workers run with minimum priveleges? How do they actually do any work?

Re:Haven't used Windows...

[optimus2861]

To be honest, if you know what you're doing with computers, there's no reason to stick with Windows on your desktop in a Windows environment.

No reason? I'll give you a few that apply in my office:

Rockwell Software

Wonderware

GE Fanuc

PI

AutoCAD

SolidWorks

If we can't use those tools, we go out of business. Plain and simple.

Moderators, please consider such things before moderating blanket statements like the parent up to +5. There are a lot of workstations out there that aren't just Word/Excel/Access/Outlook/IE boxes. When you start using dedicated software packages like the stuff I've described above, you're using Windows, and you don't have a choice (PI being a partial exception, you can get the server for Unix but many client tools are Windows-only). Does that suck? Yeah, kinda. But that's the reality, and wishing it were different doesn't change it.

Re:Haven't used Windows...

[eno2001]

Keep in mind that we're talking about IT here. Not engineering. IT. Information Technology. AKA Computer Network Janitors. That's ALL we're talking about. Not paper pushers, suits, desk jockeys or any other computer user. JUST IT. The apps you mention have no place in an IT department. And if you are doing IT along with engineering duties, then your business needs to revamp it's approach to IT.

Re:Haven't used Windows...

[optimus2861]

You did not say "IT" in your post. You said "if you know what you're doing, there's no reason to stick with Windows on your desktop." That's the blanket statement I take exception to, and with good reason. We can get into semantic quibbles over whether the "IT" was implied or not from the article/thread/post, but I've no interest in that. I just wanted to get a different perspective out there.

Re:Haven't used Windows...

[eno2001]

Poor assumption on my part... I assume that if someone really knows what they are doing, they MUST be either an IT worker or a hobbyist.

Re:Haven't used Windows...

[Hymer]

"If we can't use those tools, we go out of business. Plain and simple."
That is just the right reason for looking for alternatives... if something happens to one of them, to Microsoft or to any kombination of them your corp will be dead...
What can possibly go wrong ?

Re:Haven't used Windows...

[Anonymous Coward]

Until you can persuade all our customers of that, "I'm developing applications for Windows" is a pretty good reason to run Windows.
But with cygwin, emacs, puTTY, firefox, etc., it's not too bad.

Re:Haven't used Windows...

[WhiteWolf666]

That's the issue.

Not all environments can have everyone run with minimal privledges.

Setting up a safe Windows environment is easy.
Setting up a powerful Windows environment is easy.

Finding exactly the right balance of options that gives enough options for each user's needs without compromising security is very, very difficult, and in some cases, impossible.

And once you've compromised your security for configurability, its about damage control, which is _always_ a no-win situation.

Damage control never works perfectly. You _think_ that you've got the rest of the network correctly setup so that infection is limited, and then you'll discover something else was broken.

I like to call this the 'House of Cards' effect.

On UNIX'y environments, finding the compromise between security/configurability is much easier. Not trivial, but much easier.

Re:Haven't used Windows...

[WhiteWolf666]

That's what the beauty of virutalization is for.

Even if its Windows on Windows, virtualization allows you to dumb down your clients, and use manicured virtual machines for any Windows/Linux/Whatever applications that you need.

This is why VMware has been a blockbuster success, this is why java has taken off, and this is why the next generation of AMD and Intel processors will natively support virtualization.

Your Windows images gets infected? Fine; load up yesterday's image. Someone breaks a virtual machine? Fine; roll it back.

You want to test out some new options? No problem. Make a copy.

A workstation blows up, a you replace it with different hardware, something that would force a windows reinstall? No problem; setup the new box, reimage Linux (total time, 3 minutes), boot, login, and you are up and running, with exactly the same setup as before.

As modern office machines get more and more powerful, and start to natively support the requirements of virtualization, the business-world benefits become more and more desirable.

Hell, with Apple/Sun switching to x86 processors, you'll be able to virtualize a Windows install on ANY environment.

Re:Haven't used Windows...

[killjoe]

Come on now, how many people use those products?

Yes, if you have locked yourself into a vendor who only supports one platform it sucks to be you but most people I think are smarter then that.

Re:Haven't used Windows...

[freeweed]

Come on now, how many people use those products?

Most components of the Oil and Gas industry, for one. You may have heard of it. Huge companies, record profits, millions of employees? We have an entire province of people in Canada set up just to run this part of the business world. There just isn't a lot of competition for some of these products, and Windows is a necessary evil.

It's funny, because when reading that list I immediately thought "hey, this guy works with me!" :)

Re:Haven't used Windows...

[carlos_benj]

So all your IT co-workers run with minimum priveleges? How do they actually do any work?

Geez. He said they have a total of 4 Windows boxes and one Linux machine. I think he probably is the IT department.

Re:Haven't used Windows...

[cbreaker]

This isn't as far fetched as it sounds. At my last contract, they were in the process of forcing the entire IT staff, which was over 200 people, to use locked down workstations.

As long as your server admin tools are available on your workstation, you don't actually need local admin access.

They were doing this because too many admins were getting spyware and crap they'd have to deal with in the client group.

I think it sucks, but it's not impossible.

Re:Haven't used Windows...

[killjoe]

Huge companies don't employ millions of people. Walmart is the one with the most employees and it only employes 700,000 employees. Exxon mobil is the largest oil company and it only employs 120 thousand people or so.

Now I know you are not stupid enough to suggest that every single employee in exxom mobile needs one of those programs, most of them are just office workers.

So, for a minority of industries, and for a minority of employees in those industries there are some applications that are not available in linux.

As I said if you have locked yourself into a vendor who is shoving an operating system down your throat then it sucks to be you. Next time choose more wisely. Meanwhile pray to hell that your competitors are in the same boat, otherwise they just might increase their bottom line and pass the savings on to their customers who just might be your ex-customers.

Re:Haven't used Windows...

[freeweed]

Don't think past the end of your nose, do you?

Huge companies don't employ millions of people. ... Exxon mobil is the largest oil company and it only employs 120 thousand people or so.

You know Exxon isn't the only oil company in existence, right? Just taking the big boys alone (and there are thousands of smaller outfits) the oil industry employs millions around the world.

So, for a minority of industries, and for a minority of employees in those industries there are some applications that are not available in linux.

Yup. A minority can also be defined as 2 billion people. It's a big planet. Taking what I've seen here, I can extrapolate that at least 10% of the P&G workforce uses these applications in one fashion or another. THAT'S HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE. Things they use in their day-to-day business simply don't exist for Linux.

As I said if you have locked yourself into a vendor who is shoving an operating system down your throat then it sucks to be you.

*shrug* It seems to me that the P&G industry is making record profits. Believe me, I'm a zealot. I'll admit it. I'd like Microsoft to be nuked out of existence. Fact of the matter is, not only are they the big game in town for hosting some of these apps, no one has come up with a competitive solution.

If you think you can do it, go for it. You'll make yourself a millionaire overnight. Just keep in mind that no one else in the software industry has been able to do it yet.

It may not fit into your or my philosophy, but Windows-based solutions make a lot of people a lot of money. Just sucks that I have to support them, sometimes.

Huh?

[GypC]

The fonts are so smooth I want to spread them all over my body.

Nausea forced me to stop reading at this point.

Re:Huh?

[Skye16]

I had to stop reading too, but that was because I was too aroused.

Re:Huh?

[bhtooefr]

Fire up Ubuntu.

Whatever supixel AA engine Ubuntu's using > MS ClearType > KDE's sub-pixel AA engine > non-subpixel AA > no AA whatsoever.

The fonts really are THAT smooth.

Note that I've not seen Mac OS X's AA, so I can't say anything about the quality of that.

Um, Well

[Anonymous Coward]

It should be noted that by default, Windows Server 2003 is configured to allow unencrypted connections.

Well, if you don't check the box that says 'require encrypted connections' when you set it up.

Now, lets rewrite that to the actual truth.

'It should be noted that by default, Windows Server 2003 does not allow VPN connections at all. Once you enable remote access, you actually have to spend 1.3 seconds to turn encryption on.'

http://www.multihack.org/downloads.html

Re:Um, Well

[Anonymous Coward]

No, he's right. Default is the same thing as "Not doing any changes". Since you actively have to tell Windows to use secure connections, it's not enabled per default. Even though it *is* trivial to change.

Exchange integration

[fm2503]

"However, all was not lost. Exchange server is fairly happy to deliver e-mail, and even meeting requests, via IMAP. I quietly crept onto the Windows server, turned on the IMAP virtual server, and thus set up my Evolution mailboxes."

All very well and good, but no organization with decent change control would allow this to happen. If the policy is MAPI only does anyone have a better solution that fetchmailex ? At least for use with Thunderbird?

Ta,

Matt

Re:Exchange integration

[Anonymous Coward]

Brutus offers a cross-platform MAPI implementation that can connect to Exchange 5.5, 2000 & 2003. They have a screenshot of Evolution using Brutus to connect to an Exchange server via. MAPI, but I have no idea if any support is available for Thunderbird.

My experiences with Linux (of all flavours)

[Anonymous Coward]

I have an Biostar iDeq 200N computer with an NVIDIA nForce2 IGP + MCP-T chipset + 1GB ram + a 3GHZ Athlon, and Linux fails.

Suse 9.3, 10 fail to install at all, crapping out at random points, I have tried installing using all the available install options.

Ubuntu at least gets a clean install, though it fails to detect the ethernet connection/any PCI card installed. Indeed, once it is up and running it falls flat (goes back to the login screen) at random intervals.

Though it sounds like a hardware failure, it must be pointed out that Win 2K/XP work perfectly.

Could anyone suggest a solution to this problem?

Re:My experiences with Linux (of all flavours)

[Anonymous Coward]

i have a solution for you:

quit lying. you just made up like half of your hardware. there is no such animal as a mcp-t chipset.

Is M$ paying you for posting this crapfest on /.?

enjoy your shill money you lying liar.

Re:My experiences with Linux (of all flavours)

[Anonymous Coward]

Rare animal this one

Re:My experiences with Linux (of all flavours)

[bhtooefr]

Try backing off on your overclock.

How you got a K7 even RUNNING at 3GHz in a SFF, I don't know.

Re:My experiences with Linux (of all flavours)

[AKAImBatman]

If I were to take a Wild Ass Guess(TM), I'd point to SATA and PCI-Express as being likely candidates. Many distros weren't up on these technologies until recently, as the 2.6 kernel has had a few ups and downs in supporting them, and I don't think that 2.4 supported them at all. The NForce2 chipset doesn't help either (though you can get drivers from NVidia's site if the included drivers don't work for you). I still can't install Yoper on my machine despite the supposed kernel support for SATA drives.

Given that you're using an nForce2 board (rather than the far more compatible nForce4), I'd suggest trying the whole "driver disk" route. i.e. When you're going through the SuSE install, it gives you the opportunity to insert a manufacturer's driver disk. Create yourself a disk using the software on nVidia's website, then insert that when prompted. If you can get the driver disk working, you may be able to get SuSE up and running.

Good luck, and try to watch out for the quirky hardware next time. ;-)

Re:My experiences with Linux (of all flavours)

[NeoBeans]

Wow, that's a spectacular troll. But just in case the care and feeding of trolls has left you hungry:

The MCP-T chipset is real. It's the name of the NForce2 chipset.

Re:My experiences with Linux (of all flavours)

[DogDude]

Though it sounds like a hardware failure, it must be pointed out that Win 2K/XP work perfectly. Could anyone suggest a solution to this problem?

What's the problem, exactly? If you have 2K and XP working properly, are you just looking for a problem?

Re:My experiences with Linux (of all flavours)

[Anonymous Coward]

> Ubuntu at least gets a clean install, though it fails to detect the ethernet connection...

Yippers. You're in luck, brother. I helped my fellow Ubuntian out the other month with this exact same problem. All you need to do is install the nForce chipset drivers, and you're good to go, g. Just search the forums for nForce and you'll start to froth at the mouth when you see the solution. Don't worry. It's a good kind of froth. In fact, your mouth will get so frothy you could even rub it on your cheeks and shave with it. That's just how good Ubuntu is my friend...

Re:My experiences with Linux (of all flavours)

[level_headed_midwest]

Quit overclocking the Athlon and you'll do better. nForce 2 is for K7 chips if I remember correctly and those only get up to about 2.1GHz. Frankly, I am surpried that it boots *at all.*

Re:My experiences with Linux (of all flavours)

[fairyliquidizer]

My Athlon XP ran happily at 2.7GHz but that's the joy of Phase Change Cooling :) These days I subscribe to the low noise/default clocks school of thought.

I've heard this sentiment before...

[Caspian]

Speaking as a Unix geek: This is usually the sort of sentence one hears from Windows people in defense of Windows. It's very ironic that someone is using the very same argument in defense of Ubuntu, a Linux distribution. I think this is actually a good thing. (It's certainly a pleasant change.)

Google Truthalizer Translation ...

[Anonymous Coward]

I managed to work for a month and a half before the Boss noticed I was using Linux

Translation:

I managed to surf the web, email and IM for a month and a half before the Boss noticed I was coming in on time.

Just wanted to get things done??

[bakreule]

Don't let the /. blurb fool you. The article has as many "damn it didn't work" moments as "woohoo!" moments. Hell, he couldn't even get Evolution connected to Exchange. That right there would be a death blow to any Linux-in-a-Windows environment migration.

Don't be fooled, Linux has a long way to go before being a drop-in replacement for Windows on the desktop.

Re:Just wanted to get things done??

[Descalzo]

I think it said that he had to turn on IMAP and it worked just fine.

Re:Just wanted to get things done??

[at_slashdot]

"Don't be fooled, Linux has a long way to go before being a drop-in replacement for Windows on the desktop."

Of course, there's a long way till 50,000 viruses will be written for Linux.

Now being serious, I'm kind of tired of "Linux it's ready" or "Linux it's not ready" kind of posts. It has been ready for me 1 year ago, for some was even earlier and for some it will never be -- it depends on the usage, what are your needs and what programs you use taling generalities doesn't make much sense.

Re:Just wanted to get things done??

[horza]

Don't be fooled, Linux has a long way to go before being a drop-in replacement for Windows on the desktop.

And vice versa.

Phillip.

Re:Just wanted to get things done??

[Hymer]

We are not fooled... but you probably are...
Pls. tell me when do you consider something a drop-in replacement for something else ???
Do you buy a new car as a replacement for the old one ?? ...so you can use the same tires and wheels and other leftover from the old one ??

Re:Just wanted to get things done??

[B3ryllium]

he had to turn on IMAP on the *server*. Who the heck has access to do that in a business? OH! Right - the same people you don't want to have find out you're running a non-standard OS on your company machine.

Re:Just wanted to get things done??

[gmuslera]

The alternative question is not if Linux is ready, but if people is. A lot of people that wanted to experiment, or had no fear to try something different is using Linux or at least considered it. But in the other hand, you have users that complain/yell/cry if buttons with the same, exact text, shape and meaning are not in the same screen area that is used to be. There is a wide range of users, but while you still have people that want things as used to be to do a companywide change is hard.

Re:Just wanted to get things done??

[Anonymous Coward]

Simply put, the primary advantage of switching to Linux on the desktop is that the core infrastructure is all ready in place. It is not "ready", per se, to take on every possible desktop task, but if more business would bite the bullet and learn to do without a few of the nicities they've become acquainted with, they would surely come out ahead in the end.

Most people "in the know" understand the limitations of Windows and the Microsoft development philosphy. And before anyone jumps up stating that there's nothing wrong with proprietary software let me say this--there are some very successful proprietary software projects. Proprietary != Evil. Windows' limitations don't arise from it's development model, they arise because of Microsoft's refusal to admit that there are fundamental flaws in the kernel and start from scratch.

Re:Just wanted to get things done??

[Penguin Programmer]

Don't be fooled, Linux has a long way to go before being a drop-in replacement for Windows on the desktop.

No, it has a long way to go before being a drop-in replacement for Windows on the desktop IN A WINDOWS ENVIRONMENT.

Linux on the desktop is just fine. It is no harder to setup or use than Windows is, provided that a Linux-friendly infrastructure is present. Connecting to an Exchange server is something that Microsoft has made purposely difficult for OSes other than Windows, so it's no coincidence that it's hard to connect to under Ubuntu.

If your company is already using things like IMAP mail (or, God forbid, POP mail), a transition to Linux should be no harder than the transition to a new version of Windows.

Re:Just wanted to get things done??

[Wylfing]

Don't be fooled, Linux has a long way to go before being a drop-in replacement for Windows on the desktop.

Astroturfing bullshit. I am a business professional and I have been running Ubuntu on my desktop for about 15 months. I have never told anyone I run Linux instead of Windows, and as far as I can tell no one knows the difference. I get everything done that I need to get done, including letters and presentations (OO.o), artwork (GIMP and Inkscape), email and calendar (Evolution), chat (gaim), and PDF creation (ps2pdf and Adobe Reader 7) for document distribution and for press.

Now, it must be said that I do not hook into Exchange, and I know that's a breakage point for a lot of people. But to issue blanket statements like "Linux has a lot of catching up to do!" is disingenuous. Why in the world should you judge Linux by whether it can interoperate with software that does everything in its power to prevent interoperability? Linux may not be a suitable option for you, because you need to use Exchange. Fine! It doesn't reflect on Linux at all, though.

Re:Just wanted to get things done??

[Descalzo]

Good point.

Re:Just wanted to get things done??

[wrecked]

Let me be a contrary data point. My employer installed Exchange Server with Outlook Web Access (OWA). However (and I don't know anything about Exchange licensing) they didn't purchase the module to allow native shared calendaring in Outlook. Consequently, everyone uses Exchange as a glorified mail server only.

I arrived around six months ago. I needed shared calendaring so that my secretary can set dates. Okay, through OWA, we can share my calendar if we both log in to my account through OWA, using Firefox.

But, how to sync with my Palm? My employer provided me with Outlook 2000, which does not have OWA access; only Outlook 2003 does. And they wouldn't upgrade my Outlook.

Fortunately, we have a liberal IT policy, so I installed Ubuntu. Evolution connects to the Exchange server fine, and through OWA, I can sync my calendar and palm, something that Outlook 2000 can't do. So, to get more functionality out of Exchange, I had to use Evolution instead of Outlook!

As far as everything else goes, Abiword/Gnumeric/Openoffice/Firefox all have been drop-in replacements for the usual Microsoft suspects.

Re:Just wanted to get things done??

[Gordonjcp]

Don't be fooled, Linux has a long way to go before being a drop-in replacement for Windows on the desktop.

Depends what you want to do with your desktop. My Mum wants to browse the Internet, write letters and handle club accounts with a spreadsheet. Linux dropped right onto her desktop and now hardly any of her phone calls to me involve complaining about her computer.

Re:Just wanted to get things done??

[bcrowell]

The problem is that if there's even one thing you can't get working, it can be enough to deter all but the most fanatical from making the switch. I teach at a community college where the faculty mostly have Windows machines on their desks, with a small percentage of macs thrown in. I brought in a $200 Great Quality brand generic intel box with Linux on it to put on my own desk, and AFAIK I'm the only person at the school using Linux on the desktop. The killer for me was Samba. I got the client working for printing -- almost. The problem was that once in a while, one of my print jobs would freeze up the whole print queue, and I couldn't even delete the job from the queue. So here's a whole building full of people who can't print, and it's all my fault. Any normal person would have just given up and asked meekly for a Windows box to have on his desk after all. Because I'm a fanatic, I've actually kept using my Linux machine, but whenever I have to print, I upload a PDF file to a server I use to run a non-work web site, walk over to a Windows box, and print it from there. It's ridiculous, and nobody but a zealot like me would put up with it.

What's really sad is that this whole thing smells like a bug in Windows, not Samba. After all, why should it be possible for a user to freeze a whole print queue just by sending a certain type of data to it? But it doesn't matter. Even if it is a Windows bug, it still comes across to the average person as an indication that Linux is flaky, and dangerous to have on your network.

Re:Just wanted to get things done??

[Maniacal]

Just so people don't get confused...

My employer provided me with Outlook 2000, which does not have OWA access; only Outlook 2003 does
 
...OWA doesn't have anything to do with Outlook. It's a web based outlook that has nothing to do with what version of Outlook is running on your PC.

Your statement about OWA and Evolution is the real reason I'm replying. Evolution will work "properly" with Exchange but only if you have OWA enabled. I've played with this quite a bit trying to see if we could use Ubuntu as an desktop OS at our company. IMAP will work to some extent (as described in the article) but not for caledaring and tasks. If you turn on OWA Evloution will use it to connect to Exchange and you get almost a full feature set. Unfortunately, it breaks about once a month for no reason at all which is really frustrating but when it works it works well. Wondering if your experience with it has been the same.

Re:Just wanted to get things done??

[Nate B.]

Don't be fooled, Linux has a long way to go before being a drop-in replacement for Windows on the desktop.

In our organization with its reliance on Lotus notes, that would be true. Most everything else here has become a web app and Firefox handles that just fine. Then there is the mainframe access and so far I've not seen a Linux equivalent for Attachmate.

Re:Just wanted to get things done??

[flyinwhitey]

In a business environment, if it takes longer to set up and administrate than a Windows machine in the same circumstance would, then it's not ready.

Re:Just wanted to get things done??

[level_headed_midwest]

I worked for a research study over the summer and I had to provide my own computer, so I hauled along my laptop that ran SuSE 9.3. I could not connect directly to the domain to access network drives (NOBODY can with a private computer, even permanent staff and physicians who all have their own laptops) but with three clicks from the bored IT guys, I was able to rdp into a almost-never-used Windows 2003 server to access the drives. Printing was a snap- just print to the IP. Exchange worked fine for me with Evolution (I tried it), but I usually just used Thunderbird to get my mail as I only had 20MB on the server and we were working with ~8MB data sets. OOo 1.9.79 worked just fine with everybody's Office 2003 files. Nobody knew I ran Linux for a long time...

Printing was the only thing that gave me away as a Linux user vs. a Windows user. The secreatary wondered how I could print so easily while her newly-reformatted XP box printed out lots of blank pages. One of the IT guys was in there troubleshooting her computer when she ranted about me being able to print when she caught the IT guy smirking. He was forced to divulge my little secret, which once she understood that I ran another OS that was not Mac OS, she got even madder and we laughed even harder when she swore up and down about geeks.

So, if you do happen to be able to run a Linux machine into a Windows shop, keep it on the down-low or you'll be the target of everyone's frustrations. Trust me.

Re:Just wanted to get things done??

[Anonymous Coward]

"Longer" is not the only measure by which you judge something like that.

My company paid $800,000 a year in virus related expenses (that excluding the cost of data lost and lack of productivity). Needless to say 100% of those machines were Windows, 0% Macs and 0% Linux (BTW, there are important number of Mac machnes and some Linux machines too but we don't have evidence of any virus, worm or spyware that affected those machine).

Re:Just wanted to get things done??

[wrecked]

What I meant was that Outlook 2000 cannot access the Exchange calendar through OWA; it doesn't have that functionality. Outlook 2003 does. Thanks for your information that Exchange with OWA enabled gives you the full feature set; that explains a lot.

It's interesting that you've had the experience of Exchange/OWA breaking once a month. Here, Exchange regularly but intermittently chokes, but this happens to everyone at the same time whether they're using Outlook or OWA, so I don't regard this as an Evolution bug. It's probably a server configuration issue, but as the servers are managed nationally, I have no idea what is involved.

Re:Just wanted to get things done??

[flyinwhitey]

You didn't read the part where I wrote "administrate" did you?

Re:Just wanted to get things done??

[Anonymous Coward]

No. It is a Samba/CUPS problem. Dual-booting on the same box, printing the LaserJet shared off the wife's XP Home machine, Ubuntu takes 3-4X as long to boot. The spool files are much larger, and it doesn't use the printer's memory nearly as efficiently.

Don't blame a Linux problem on a wish for a Windows deficiency.

Re:Just wanted to get things done??

[bill_mcgonigle]

What's really sad is that this whole thing smells like a bug in Windows, not Samba. After all, why should it be possible for a user to freeze a whole print queue just by sending a certain type of data to it? But it doesn't matter. Even if it is a Windows bug, it still comes across to the average person as an indication that Linux is flaky, and dangerous to have on your network.

It smells like you're crashing something and if it's a print job there's a fair chance you're overrunning a buffer somewhere in Windows. If it's highly reproducible the folks at eeye or secunia (or any of the other perpetual thorns in Microsoft's side) might want to have a look at it. Hey, you just might get a Windows Automatic Update one day that would let you print again!

Re:Just wanted to get things done??

[mliikset]

@_/., you hit the nail on the head. I have it was ready 3 years ago, did everything I tried to do with it, minimal hassle, maximum support for those fixes. OTOH, the learning curve for even command line linux isn't that steep, most cli apps commonly use a very small set of options (which can be scripted if they are too much trouble) and defaults are usually reasonably helpful if not quite what you wanted. The retraining line as regards GNOME or KDE apps is hooey, unless you really believe that your employees (maybe standard users, but IT guys?)are deliberately stupid as well as dope-addled thieves (obligatory dig at drug and polygraph tests for employment).

What humourless imbecile modded this offtopic?

[Viol8]

Its quite funny. If you have 2 braincells to rub together and get the joke
which the original mod obviously didn't. Mod it up!

Exactly

[dreamchaser]

You should be modded as insightful. The place to play is on your own machine. If you don't like the standards at your workplace you should find a new job. I'm all for running whatever works on the desktop, but it's the perogative of the *owner* of the hardware (in this case the employer) to decided what is to be run on it.

This reminds me of my teenager who has a habit of decided on her own that certain rules shouldn't apply to her so she'll just do as she pleases. Buy a machine and play with Linux at home. If you feel strongly about running it at work then propose it to your boss.

Re:Exactly

[Frymaster]

The place to play is on your own machine.

actually, the place to play is on your own hard drive.

at work i have one hard drive in my machine running my home-rolled ubuntu and one with the company-approved install of centos. i'd feel pretty clever about it if i hadn't been the one pushing so hard to adopt centos in the first place...

Re:Exactly

[Anonymous Coward]

If you work tech support and aren't allowed to tinker... You need to look for a new job, your company is run by brain-dead fascists..

This guy obviously knew what he was doing, and neither of you read the whole article. He installed in a seperate disk..

Re:Exactly

[MartinG]

If you don't like the standards at your workplace you should find a new job.

That seems a bit extreme. I am in a small minority at our company who use linux on their desktops. (I have personally for a few years now)

I just explained why it would make me more productive in what I do and then installed it. If they had complained and shouted, then I would have uninstalled linux and got another job. As it turned out the company was reasonable about it.

Re:Exactly

[suezz]

"You should be modded as insightful. The place to play is on your own machine. If you don't like the standards at your workplace you should find a new job. I'm all for running whatever works on the desktop, but it's the perogative of the *owner* of the hardware (in this case the employer) to decided what is to be run on it."

wrong - IT should be encouraged to experiment - that is part of their job after all.

now do you want Jane Doe secretary to install linux on her workstation - no but she doesn't really care about what is on her desktop.

this guy is the sys admin - part of the job description is test and experiment with anything and everything computer related that has to do with his job.

Re:Exactly

[corporatemole]

I agree with you. It's nice working at a company, though, that allows you to install any OS you want as long as you can get your work done and work with whatever standard file formats they happen to use. It's even nicer to be able to use my personal laptop specifically for work.

Re:Exactly

[Maniacal]

Actually, the article says he's a consultant. He's supposed to spend his time supporting clients of the company not tinkering with his PC. If he did it after hours that's another thing but if he did it on the company dime then he should be held accountable. Maybe if one of their clients was considering moving to linux desktops.

From what I read in the article I would estimate he put about 30 hours into the project. He cost his employer quite a bit of money.

Re:Exactly

[IDontAgreeWithYou]

Also in TFA he mentions that he secretly turned on IMAP on the company's exchange server. Where I work, any major changes made to the configuration of production servers usually requires several meetings and relatively high level approval unless it is in response to an urgent problem. I think maybe he could play with his PC, but changing settings on the servers is going too far.

Re:Exactly

[Hatta]

The place to play is on your own machine.

Who says installing linux is playing? If I'm more productive in linux, isn't that the bottom line? When you can get things done with free tools that would have been costly and a huge hassle otherwise, who's gonna care how you did it? Remember, it's easier to ask for forgiveness than permission.

This reminds me of my teenager who has a habit of decided on her own that certain rules shouldn't apply to her so she'll just do as she pleases.

Good, you should be encouraging her to think for herself. Blind acceptance of authority is what's wrong with this country.

Re:Exactly

[bogie]

"If I'm more productive in linux, isn't that the bottom line?"

No that isn't the bottom line. The bottom line is what the company can support with its IT department. It's also what the company and not you thinks works. If they standardize on XP and Office then so be it. You can feel free to point out why X product allows you to do your job better, but your not free to just use whatever you want.

Just one single example among many of why what you want to do doesn't work. Your in charge of X project. You used Gentoo and blackbox to do all your work. Oh and you boot into init 3 because that's the way you like it. Your hit by a car and never come to work again. Now how the heck is the company supposed to figure out your computer and replace you with someone else to pick up where you left off?

Re:Exactly

[skiflyer]

Who says installing linux is playing? If I'm more productive in linux, isn't that the bottom line?

I'm so glad I don't work with anyone who has this mentallity anymore... no it's not the bottom line, there are all sorts of issues of IT support, automated backups, being able to work with your coworkers source control, being able to pick up and continue your work if you're hit by a bus on your way in and so and so on.

Few businesses (tho some) put those barriers up for the hell of it, they're usually there for a reason and you're screwing with someone else and their job by just thinking you're above all those rules.

Re:Exactly

[nequeo]

As the author of this article, I'd just like to clarify a few points.

Had I known I was going to be mentioned on Slashdot, I would have left out the speading fonts over my body line (but don't knock it till you've tried it!), thrown in an 'Inconcievable!' or two, and perhaps criticsed KDE, so that the opposing camps of Trolls would tear into each other, and let me quietly slink off back to work with my pride more or less intact.

I wish to say:

You have probably been thinking of cublicles. I saw a reference or two to the PHB. Luckily, I don't have one.

Yes, I have previously worked in the IT departments of large, international companies who run Windows desktops with an iron first. I cannot doubt the efficiency of this system, nor the intelligence of the people who implement it. In fact, one of these companies had an in-house software dev team, and their 'senior developer' was only 19 years old - having been hired at 17.

And certainly, in such an environment, I wouldn't dream of messing with their precious RIS-imaged desktops. Except to add certain users to the Local Admins group when their company-bought Palm Pilots refuse to work with 'limited' Windows accounts. But as nice as the money is, I do prefer a little more freedom in my work place.

So my 'company' is now a 'boutique' IT consultancy. There are two employees. Me, and the 'boss'. My job description is more or less to innovate. I have absolute lisence to do whatever I want to my desktop, and one of the developement servers, so long as I can continue to support our existing clients - who through historical accident mostly use Windows machines. As mentioned in the article, I do this using VNC and 'rdesktop', which is just as good as looking over their shoulder and pointing out where to click.

Since switching my desktop to Linux I have managed to successfully press for LAMP-type projects over IIS/ASP, and convinced several companies who were previously balking at the cost of putting in a Windows server to at least use a Linux machine to centralise and organise their data and backups. Our costs are down, which means client costs are down, which means more business and good will all-round.

Saying the Boss didn't notice for a month was a bit of artistic licence. Yes, the words are true, but I should mention that's because our office is in a converted wharf facility, and we have our meetings in a cafe overlooking Sydney Harbour, rather than in a cubicle or meeting room. Provided he could read all the documents I sent him, and none of our clients suddenly started complaining that I couldn't solve their problems, or administer their servers, there was no reason for him to care what OS I was using.

2506x2048 desktop was a typo. I did mean 2506x1024.

Windows Server Small Business Edition 2003, (I apologize for not specifying), ya know, the Crippleware version, does in fact automatically set up RRAS for you on first install and allow unencrypted connections by default.

Yes, the Slashdot posting was a little one-sided. I was not advocating large scale enterprise adoption of Linux. I was saying that despite a few hassles, Linux could be co-oerced into doing what I needed on a PC, and that perhaps other small start-up companies, who don't currently have any IT infrastructure, might want to consider Linux. As long as they dont need Access, that is.

Re:Exactly

[Anonymous Coward]

"The bottom line is what the company can support with its IT department. "

Man, have you got a distorted view on the business world. Keeping the IT department happy is just so far down the pecking order of importance, it's not funny. If you are getting your job done, better and faster with Linux, Windows, or whatever, use it. Get the job done and reap the rewards.
Sucking up the the IT department will get you nowhere.

Re:Exactly

[rjenkins1]

Exactly is right. Anyway, they should have these machines locked down in a certain way, if it does not provide total security, at least it will strongly discouage anybody to tamper with it, eg: bios passwords. This reminds me of the kid that also decided certain rules didn't apply to him, and went and installed one of those SETI@Home type apps on every computer at his workplace.

I would love to...

[sammy.lin]

Switch to a Linux enviornment, but the work I do just cant allow it. Our system runs on M$ applications (SQL server, and ASP.NET). Moving to a Linux desktop means I dont get Enterprise Manager, Query Analyzer and no Visual Studio (Im aware of Mono). This is somewhat hard since I use Gentoo at home. But if the person FTFA is able to do his work for a month, and still have his Linux, bravo!

Re:I would love to...

[Anonymous Coward]

Connecting to M$ SQL Server from Linux...have you tried SQuirreL-SQL client http://squirrel-sql.sourceforge.net/?

Linux at school

[Descalzo]

I teach, and use Mac OSX 10.2 and these are the things I don't think I can live without: iChat (Rendezvous client) and PowerSchool.

I am sure PowerSchool doesn't have a Linux port, but I know they make a Windows version. I am very hesitant to try to run the Windows version in wine, as I have never used wine. Also, the only computer they have given me (so far) is an old iMac. Can you run windows apps in wine on a Mac?

Also, I have heard that you can use Trillian to be a part of Rendezvous, but I tried it and it didn't work for me. Am I doing something wrong?

I see these (and the time it takes to install) as the 2 things stopping me from moving over to Linux at school.

Re:Linux at school

[SpiritGod21]

I believe you have to have Trillian Pro to use Rendezvous. I do (purchased it to support them a while back), and I don't remember having Rendezvous on Trillian Basic.

My recommendation? Take your own computer in and hook it up :-P I've been thinking about doing the same in response to being handed a crappy computer, but don't expect them to give you tech support if you do.

Re:Linux at school

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you referring to the PowerGrade client? PowerSchool works through a browser, that Linux will probably be able to handle just fine with one of its built in browsers. The client is a different story, though, as it is only engineered for Windows and Mac.

I can see how this would present a problem. You have to be able to add assignments, etc., and the PG client is much more handy than the web based in that aspect.

Re:Linux at school

[Descalzo]

Yes, thank you. The PowerGrade client. I need the client for things like linking the assignments to the standards, roll call, lunch count, etc.

Re:Linux at school

[John Nowak]

WINE will not run on a Mac. As Wine Is Not an Emulator, you need to run it on an x86-y platform. Once the new intel-based Macs come out, WINE should be just fine. Hey, that's a rhyme. Ah shit, again this time! Wht.. wuA>... AHH!!

Coral Cache if needed

[Anonymous Coward]

http://madpenguin.org.nyud.net:8090/cms/?m=show&op t=printable&id=5557

cp karma /dev/null

Office computer != your computer

[Viol8]

Whatever someone may feel about Windows or some other OS, if thats what the
company requires you to use then you have to use it. Its their computer, they're
paying you money , you do what they tell you. You wouldn't expect to get away
with repainting your desk , or putting down a new carpet around where you sit
"because I don't like grey" , so why do some people think they can get away with
messing around with the company computer. Its not your property. Yes , Ubunto
is a great distribution , but pissing off your boss this way is not a good way
to spread the Open Source message. IMO anyway.

Re:Office computer != your computer

[KiroDude]

I agree with you that it is the company's computer, but I disagree in the fact that they force you to use this or that tool.

You should be able to use any tool you need as long as it is free or you paid for the license yourself, if these tools allow you to be more productive your boss shouldn't do anything but agreeing.

The goal is getting the job done. Period. if your boss does not understand that, ten better switch quickly!

Re:Office computer != your computer

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree that the office computer is company property, not one's own property, but occasionally some people can actually improve office operations and save the company money by some rather "free" approaches.

I was inspired by Payal Rathod's Linux Success Story (http://payal.staticky.com/success1.html), which involved switching the mail and internet connections to Linux ... without the staff being aware of it. In this case, her job was saved by the fact that it was a noticeable improvement. Plus, having the boss's daughter as a good friend helped, no doubt. It's a story worth reading.

Re:Office computer != your computer

[B3ryllium]

putting down a new carpet around where you sit
"because I don't like grey"

You might be able to get away with throwing down a rug or something. Or installing VMWare. :)

Re:Office computer != your computer

[node 3]

Whatever someone may feel about Windows or some other OS, if thats what the
company requires you to use then you have to use it.

Clearly the guy was able to run Linux, so depending on how you want to qualify your statement, you're either wrong or what you said doesn't apply to him.

Re:Office computer != your computer

[Anonymous Coward]

That might be true when applied to the management of burger flippers or tele-sales reps, but start telling information workers what to do (those who have to think as part of their job) and you lose their interest and commitment.

Have a read of Peopleware. Let the staff play about with their environment and they'll settle on the most creative setup, which is exactly what the manager should want.

Re:Office computer != your computer

[digidave]

It sounds to me like you've had a lot of crappy bosses. I installed Ubuntu with little fanfare. I just told them why it made sense for me: I program for Linux servers. I won't get any desktop support from IT, obviously, but I accepted that risk.

Most bosses don't care what programs you use as long as it doesn't directly affect them negatively. If I started sending spreadsheets to my boss as ODF files and told him he'd have to install OpenOffice, then it'd be a problem. But right now he sends me XLS and I send him XLS back. What does he care if I'm running Windows, Linux or a hacked up Atari 2600? If asked I could show my boss exactly why Linux makes me more productive and I could also show him exactly why our web designer would be less productive in Linux.

Any decent boss will understand that different people require different ways to work. Very few places make their Photoshoppers use Windows because they cater to their needs. They learned on Macs and they want to use Macs, so they do. The day will come where Linux is in the enterprise in the same way. Programmers and sysadmins will have Linux available to them if they want. It won't usually replace Windows for everybody, but it will be there nonetheless.

Re:Office computer != your computer

[doublejoon]

I have been running Redhat/Fedora/CentOS Linux's for 4 years in Windows/Linux enviroments. At first it was pretty hard to do some things in a Windows dominant world but Linux has improved alot IMO as far as compatibility is concerned. Samba, Evolution, Firefox, etc...Besides, A Linux System Administrator really should be running a Linux workstation. ssh, scp, tsclient,

Convincing my boss...

[rufus_sd]

I will try to convince my boss with this quote from TA...

Now I have my dual screen desktop and it is a lovely sight to behold. The fonts are so smooth I want to spread them all over my body. It's like butter on the eyeballs, it is.

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Prior to getting fired

[Anonymous Coward]

Our company was running Windows 2k on the desktop and I took the liberty to install OpenBSD on my desktop (to try it out). Now I didn't have to worry about the stupid "Administrator" password, or not being able to use certain programs. The only problem was that I had never used it before and I couldn't get Wine to work correctly or compile programs very well. My boss found out that day and called me into his office. He asked me what the hell was I doing to company property and I told him how more secure and better OpenBSD was. He had no clue what I was talking about and said: "You don't need to be messing around with our company's computer equipment and you're not even in the IT department. You're a customer support rep." He also stated something regarding company policy, destroying company property, or something to that effect (I wasn't listening). So needless to say I was asked to clean out my desk and leave that day. I wasn't pretty, but I never reformatted OpenBSD off of my computer, so the IT guy had to see the OS on the desktop and must have thought I was a bright guy for doing what I did. Now that was years ago, but I still feel proud for what I did. Although, now I live at home with my mother and haven't found a new job since.

Re:Prior to getting fired

[Datamonstar]

You're an idiot. Always ask before you make a change. Especially if you're not even in IT. I've got a Linux box that I fiddle with here in th data center I work at, but you've better believe that I asked my boss if I could put it up before I partitioned the box.

Re:Prior to getting fired

[Chaffar]

"I wasn't pretty, but I never reformatted OpenBSD off of my computer"

Lucky you. I'm so hideous I was forced to uninstall OpenBSD :(

Oh Arial! Arial!

[winkydink]

my dingbats are aflutter!

Re:Oh Arial! Arial!

[Anonymous Coward]

Hee hee, +5 Funny.

Linux on the Desktop

[mchawi]

I run multiple machines at work - some native and some on VMWare. Either my Windows XP machine or my SuSE 10 machine can basically do anything that *I* want. RDP is easy with SuSE - none of the problems mentioned in this article. Kerberos and AD authentication was not very problematic - just go into YAST and the kerberos setup, then edit the config file. Windows administration - just RDP to a Windows desktop and use almost any tool from there. A few apps here and there that are Windows only - Citrix. So for it would work fairly well. I also have no problems at home or work with viruses, spyware, etc - mainly because I don't run as an administrative user.

The problem that prevents Linux from being used where I work is (1) with an Enterprise License Agreement for MS versus one for Redhat/Novell - the cost is about the same (**costwise - not sure who has better support). Number (2) and the main issue is that we have many departments that have 'must have' applications that are Windows only. We're not talking one or two applications - but probably about 60 of them. We can run a few on Citrix or some other platform - but that adds up very quickly. Our view of Linux not being ready for the desktop is -only- related to applications. I don't think our users would care about any of the other stuff. IT is going to set it up - so they don't care how hard it is to install drivers, software and hardware. They only care how it is to use. However, the first time you tell them they can't have their business critical application - it's all over (*a lot of these apps were written in-house, but I'm not responsible for the dev team...one of the other critical apps is our point of sale system...which is Windows only).

My guess is that as more and more stuff becomes web enabled, you'll see more and more people migrating to Linux. I think when most people talk about being enabled for the desktop and how 'difficult' Linux is to setup for the 'typical' user they never consider that the 'typical' user never sets up anything in a corporate environment.

Re:Haven't used Linux...

[DogDude]

...on my desktop ever. To be honest, if you know what you're doing with computers, there's no reason not to stick with Windows on your desktop in a Windows environment. For those apps that you HAVE to have, there is no real replacement for a real Windows machine (point-of-sale software with hardware). When I need to do some Windows admin stuff, I just do it. All of the basic apps installed under native Windows with no problem. Windows gives you everything you need and more easily than Linux ever could. And of course uptime and reliability... we haven't had to talk abuot that since Windows 2000 came out. Not an issue. Suffice it to say that when my Linux using friends are scrambling to figure out how to get their machine to boot, figure out how to do simple things like change the screen resolution and griping about .config files, I'm always up and running without a glitch.

Install time. Eh?

[squoozer]

WTH is this obsession with install time and boot time all about? I couldn't care less if install time was 15 minutes or a day. I've always got plenty of other things to be getting on with. Even if I didn't have one day out of the amount of time I would generally be working with the machine would be tiny

The thing that takes the time for me is upgrades and configuration. I run Debian so upgrades are probably about as smooth as they get for any Linux distro but the number of times a little something goes wrong and needs manually fixing is amazing (yes I could run stable and not suffer as many problems but I like to be at least fairly up to date). I suppose the reason this doesn't happen on windows is simply because you rarely update the installed applications. Even so it would be nice if updates were less likely to mangle the system.

Re:Install time. Eh?

[BrookHarty]

Spoken like someone who never had to reboot or re-login during an outage. Boot time for old windows laptop's of 2 minutes and 3-4 minutes for IT scripts was horrible. I would always put "IT Network Scripts" down as extenders to outages.

Re:Install time. Eh?

[Zapdos]

Gentoo is the smoothest for upgrades.
Most of the time it is as simple as typing emerge -uD world;revdep-rebuild before going to sleep.

Re:Install time. Eh?

[Anonymous Coward]

>> I run Debian so upgrades are probably about as smooth as they get for any Linux distro but the number of times a little something goes wrong and needs manually fixing is amazing >>

Do yourself a favour and install apt-listbugs. It will tell you all outstanding bugs for packages you want to install/upgrade and whether they are open or closed. You can then pass on upgrading/installing those pkgs and live with stability, even with Debian unstable.

hurrah!

Re:Install time. Eh?

[leobh]

I quite agree; Gentoo has been running solid as a rock on my family's main computerthat is, the one my parents use. All I need do to make sure they're all up to date is sync portage and emerge. I've set it up so they have GNOME, Ximianised OpenOffice.org, Thunderbird, Firefox and mplayer (for all media needs, including the Firefox plugin). Since setting up, the only maintenance has been updating.

Compare that to the Windows installation that my brother insists on using (despite the fact that there isn't a single app he uses without an alternative or better app for Linux), which is not only slower but requires frequent malware removal and virus scans, and which soon degenerates to a lumbering wreck (read: sloth; 5 minutes from boot to PC being usable, no joke) until a reinstall from scratch is needed again. For basic computing needs, Linux is likely to be much less of a hassle once set up; certainly less so than it is to reinstall Windows, losing everything, or to buy a new computer outright, both of which are practices several people I know carry out with unbelievable frequency (okay, not so much so the latter).

Centos4 on desktop is a breeze..

[slashmojo]

I've been running centos4 (4.2 now) on my desktop for ages and its a breeze to install and configure.. a recent disk failure forced me to reinstall again and unsurpisingly it was still flawless.

Only downside was the ugly fonts but thats very easily fixed after a visit to TLDP Font-HOWTO

Day to day use is great.. never any problems, never any time 'wasted' configuring anything.. everything 'just works' - its almost like windows! ;)

I also have it running on an old toshiba laptop.

Everyone raves about ubuntu (perhaps rightly) but I had no luck with it as it refused to install on my desktop or laptop although maybe the new version would.

Re:Centos4 on desktop is a breeze..

[Anonymous Coward]

"I also have it running on an old toshiba laptop." - I've been running Hoary and Breezy on an old Toshiba Satellite Pro4600 with no problems with kernel parameters of resume=/dev/hda5 acpi=nopci lapic idebus=66 vga=0x318

Maybe you could try the Live version again

G.

Re:Centos4 on desktop is a breeze..

[slashmojo]

Thanks, will give it a go.

Similar situation, only with Suse

[Ransak]

Three weeks ago I received a shiney new Dell Latitude D810 for a new position within my company. For the record, my company is a 100% Microsoft Windows shop. Since I have some Linux experience on the server side (and some nifty ceritifcation papers from Redhat to line my birdcage with), I decided to bite the bullet and try using a Linux distro as my full time desktop.

I chose Suse 10 since it's fairly new and I knew I'd need support for newer technologies (wireless, etc).

So far, I've only ran into a few problems... Wireless WPA-EAP connectivity being the biggest issue. I haven't been able to get it straightened out. In fact, wireless support on Linux (in my experience) has been flakey, sometimes it works perfectly and other times it's an exercise in frustration. And with Suse 10, there are a few annoying bugs that crop up, but for the most part they're survivable.

The number one issue I've seen while trying to run Suse as my business desktop in a 100% MS Windows world has been the 'compatibility curve'. Something it would take me 10 seconds to do in XP sometimes takes me 10 minutes (half the time simply due to my unfamiliarity with the distro/Linux desktop environment, the other half reconfiguration time just to make it compatible).

It isn't for the lazy or undetermined, but it can be done. There's something to be said for taking the road less traveled, and in the end I'm sure I'll be richer for the experience.

Or fired.

Re:Similar situation, only with Suse

[rabeldable]

Try Ubuntu - it just works. If you are familiar with linux you will need to do some tweaking to certain things and some things need to be configured in a certain order.

The problem: the order and the list of things to install or configure is not listed anywhere.

You are on your own!

http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=476609& postcount=112

Or Not: http://www.ubuntuforums.org/

Also - there are over 500 ppl in the ubuntu irc channel (#ubuntu) at any given time, someone there to help usually at any time.

Re:Similar situation, only with Suse

[Ransak]

Thanks for the links ;) I may try it soon. Probably after the 'new and shiney' feel dissolves from this Suse install, which at the rate bugs are cropping up, looks like about a week from now!

Fonts

[RasendeRutje]

"The fonts are so smooth I want to spread them all over my body."
That does it, I'm installing right now! I want to spread fonts all over my body too!

Re:Fonts

[soops1966]

"The fonts are so smooth I want to spread them all over my body."

I prefer spreading chocolate - my wife is addicted to the stuff. Sex on demand whoo hoo!

Re:Fonts

[GhaleonStrife]

You don't even need a computer for it. Just roll around in newspaper. Or, if you need to have a computer involved, freshly printed documents from an inkjet printer.

Misleading title

[Ctrl Alt De1337]

This is not your average office worker running Linux from his workstation, as if he was like the vast majority of office workers in the world.

"It is a simple fact that most of our clients run Windows 2003 servers and that it's my job to administer those servers..."

It's cool that he could still do that incognito with Ubuntu, but how easy was it really? Let's find out:

On getting the monitors to work: "I had to install the restricted Nvidia drivers and read the official documentation to get both monitors working, but that wouldn't be too troublesome for anyone used to mucking around with their xorg.conf file." Yes, it is Nvidia's fault, but for the uninitiated, "mucking around" in an xorg.conf file sounds scary.

On networking: "So, not exactly a quick and painless set up, but having done it once it would probably only take five minutes or so to do it again... though I'm a little concerned about the practicality of rolling out a large number of Ubuntu clients in an enterprise environment."

On email: "Ubuntu's default e-mail client, Evolution, is supposed to play nice with Outlook. It actually turned out to be very simple to get Evolution to connect to our Exchange server... That's precisely when things started going wrong. Exchange support seemed to be rather buggy and crash prone, and because Evolution is integrated into parts of the desktop, my desktop was soon littered with the burnt, twisted corpses of panel applets and daemons." He had to change a setting on the Exchange server to get things to work correctly.

On remote administration: "There is a bug in pptp-linux that prevents it from negotiating a secure connection after Windows offers to allow an unencrypted connection, but this behavior is easily solved by configuring the RRAS service on Windows Server to only allow encrypted connections."

On the office suite: "It is tempting to treat 'Base', the database application, just like Access. However it is not Access, and lacks many of Access's features. I was particularly chagrined to find it is not possible to import data from a CSV file into a table... If you rely heavily on local database files, and the Form and Report functions of Access, Base probably won't cut it for you."

That's a lot of issues that could scare away, rather than encourage, Windows-based offices from adding Linux boxes to their networks. I would love to read that article and come away thinking that Linux is ready for business, but unless everything gets switched to *nix is appears to be a big hassle to add Linux to the mix. Whether that truly is right or not I don't know, since I'm not that experienced with Linux and because a lot of the problems are with Windows not playing nice and not Linux, but if a PHB reads this article he might swear Linux off entirely. Sure, the Base functionality loss can be fixed with Cedega + Access, but does a manager who's never heard of Linux know that? It looks like Linux is not yet ready for the client side of a business, but at least the atricle outlines where the work for making that happen needs to go.

Re:Misleading title

[smooth wombat]

In re: your opening line, I was thinking the same thing. This is someone who has the knowledge and background to go fiddle with the configuration to get it set the way he wants it set.

The issues he pointed out regarding the installation would be a non-starter in most work environments.

I use Windows both at work and home but I did try to install Slackware 10 and Debian 3.0 Rev 4 on an older machine here at work earlier this year. I did get Slack up and running and used Gimp to do basic stuff and could even send out mail (but not receive) via Pine. However, that was about it. Granted, I didn't spend hours each day trying to figure things out but I did do research into how to get things configured and even talked to folks online who I knew had already done this.

As far as Debian was concerned, well, let's just say that I much preferred the way Slack allows you to choose which packages to install. I don't think I got much further than getting it installed.

My computer knowledge falls somewhere in the middle. Not an uber user but someone who can work through most problems to find an answer. From my experience with Slack and reading this story, Linux on the desktop still has issues that need to be addressed before it can compete head-to-head in a Windows environment. This is not to say that it shouldn't be used in certain environments just that it's not the 'killer app' (or OS in this case) to be used in a wholesale replacement of Windows machines.

P.S. If anyone can tell me how to configure LDAP on an Imagistics printer, respond to this message. The documentation from Imagistics simply says, "Enter the appropriate information as noted at right." but the screenshots don't match what I have and the Imagistics techs know even less than I do.

Re:Misleading title

[Kjella]

Alright, so it's not nice BUT

Most of the problems he ran into are "can-fix" things that work in a controlled environment. Access is more of a permanent thing. Many software products I know of require and are only supported on certain configurations, so it's not like everything runs with everything in the Windows world either. If we can get to the point of "Yes, you can use it but it's a PITA to set up properly" that is a long step up from "Well, some things just don't have equivalent Linux replacements". Then so be it that it isn't "Linux is a drop-in replacement for a Windows box." Basicly, what matters is getting the user functionality to where it needs to be. The rest will be a cost/benefit analysis, but failing to meet essential business requirements is a straight disqualification - almost no matter the cost.

Re:Misleading title

[ajs318]

Once you have enough Linux machines, you can ditch Microsoft Exchange and install sendmail {if you're brave} or exim {if you're not quite so brave, and not from Oxford}. You'll also need a POP3 server; qpopper will do. Get Webmin at first, but poke around by hand in the configuration files till you get confident that you can manage without it.

Re:Misleading title

[MeBadMagic]

disclaimer: I'm a SuSE fanboy... hehehe

I thought you were going to take a different route. You didn't, so I will.

When I was reading through your quoted text from the article, I thought you were going to point out that allot of those problems were fixed by getting the Windows side of things to play nicely (more standard). I wonder that those exchange settings were.

In SuSE, you can use YOU (GUI for online updates) to get the nvidia binary drivers installed and enabled. No config file tweaking. Network browsing has been sucessful right out of the gate. And when things don't work, you have YAST (GUI like control panel) and Control Center to help. Still no config files. KDE's kmail/kontact software is wonderfull. I haven't used evolution myself, but hear lots about it. In fact, the email thing is the BIGGEST reason I haven't switched our normal users computers over to Linux. If Evolution would get their windows client done, I'd switch our users from outlook to evolution, then from IE to firefox, then from M$ Office to OpenOffice. From there, I'd bet I could switch their OS over to Linux, and the user wouldn't even know. Same apps, same OS. Right?

hehe

Re:Misleading title

[Macka]

And what do you suggest for a shared Calendaring solution without Exchange ?

Re:Misleading title

[Fallingcow]

What about phpgroupware? Here's a demo. I'd link to the main site, but it looks like Sourceforge is having some issues right now; at least, I can't connect to anything hosted on it. Weird. Maybe some router broke between there and here. *shrug*

Browsing down the list of packages brought up by searching for "calendar" in Synaptic on my Ubuntu install here at work, Hula and Egroupware look like possibilities, too. I wouldn't know, I've never used either, but they might be worth a look.

As a bonus, all of these will work with any OS that can use a modern web browser. Kickass, no? Got a dev doing some embedded QNX work, so he's got that installed for his desktop? He can still use the groupware app, without having to have a separate machine. Some users still on Windows? No problem. All the grunt work is on the server side. And hell, you can run the server on just about any OS. I think the only requirement for PHPgroupware is Apache, PHP, and some kind of SQL--and I'm not entirely sure about the Apache part, I bet it could be made to run on any PHP-enabled web server, and anyway Apache runs on almost anything. So you could use, Linux, Windows, *BSD, OSX, or whatever else you want for your server.

Re:Misleading title

[Macka]

My team are not office based. We travel around a lot, so a web based solution doesn't really fit. Hula looks promising (we looked at that already) but its not production ready yet. Scalix looked to be the best solution, as an Exchange replacement. But in the end we got a packaged Exchange solution Fasthosts.co.uk as its way cheaper than buying a server, renting computer room space, etc, etc.

If you want shared calendaring, email and contacts with good integration between the three, there isn't really anything else in one package with good client support that matches Exchange or one of the OSS Exchange replacements. That was the conclusion we came to anyway.

User agreements

[Chayak]

Most companies will have you sign user agreements that prohibit this type of thing. At work I use windows because I have no choice. The military is like that, and I need connections to exchange. I would be installing linux in a heartbeat if I could. I have managed to get a linux server into our network by waiting until our end of fiscal year budget was tight and the need for a file server was high. I used an older machine with CentOS and it worked better than the other server we have here. It pretty much has command support now so it's here to stay.

Re:User agreements

[Bloater]

> Most companies will have you sign user agreements

"User agreements"? I thought it was called a contract of employment.

In a cubicle far, far away...

[Billosaur]

Boss: What's that? [pointing to screen]

Worker: Ubuntu. Been using it for a while. Works so much better than Windows and I'm much more productive.

Boss: Excellent! Good job! Keep it up!

[Boss shuffles off to his office, closes the door, and kneels before raised, circular object on the floor. Hologram of hooded figure appears.]

Figure: What is it?

Boss: My Master, there is a Linux-user here!

Figure: I see. The Rebels are becoming bold, moving faster than anticipated. No matter!

Boss: What shall we do?

Figure: Do nothing. I will send Darth Ballmer to deal with this "Linux-user."

Boss: Very well, My Master.

[Hologram disappears]

Re:In a cubicle far, far away...

[angrytuna]

[Cut to hooded pudgy figure holding a glowing red chair...]

I did the same thing last January

[digidave]

After installing it an IT guy noticed and my boss got a bit of shit for what I did and I was asked to justify using Linux. I'm a Linux programmer, so that got solved very quickly.

We use DeskNow (http://www.desknow.com/) for email and collaboration so Exchange connectivity was never a problem. Luckily we have a lot of sales reps who don't have a company computer, so at minimum we'd have to have OWA running for them even if we used Exchange. I still don't authenticate with the AD server, but that doesn't really present a problem for me and if it does, I'll figure out how to set that up. Because I'm on Linux I don't even have an AD user, so right now my only problem is accessing the shared drives, although I have never needed to do that. They won't let me dump several GB of server backups there anyway.

I can honestly say that using Linux hasn't caused me any trouble at all. I work with a lot of Excel spreadsheets, but while they're very large (one dataset often is split in several 65000 row files) they aren't very complicated. The one that is complicated works fine in OpenOffice 1.x and 2.0. From Linux it's much easier to manage my Linux servers and test my code. I use Wine to run IE so I can test application web front ends in multiple browsers for the apps that support a web front end.

All in all it's been a smashing success for me. Several people in the office have commented about how much they love my desktop -- how nice it looks and how easy it is to work with different types of files. Even the designers on Macs are impressed. I also got someone else from work to install Ubuntu at home. I just handed him an Ubuntu Live CD and he loved it. After installing the Windows apps like OpenOffice that came with the CD, he took the plunge and couldn't be happier.

You do realize the above AC is trolling right?

[StressGuy]

Surely you can smell the heavy aroma of BS...

You've got to be kidding

[Overzeetop]

They don't do tracking at the firewall? I would think they monitor the ports, not the remote applications.

I do see the CD paranoia thing. My wife's company diables the CDROMs and floppies so that nobody can install "foreign" software. I'm not quite sure how they deal with USB , but I think they figure nobody at that office knows enough to use a key or a portable.

Re:You've got to be kidding

[BJH]

Most likely they disable the USB ports in the BIOS and password-lock it, or switch them off in the registry and lock it down with admin privileges.

Re:You've got to be kidding

[Kjella]

On some machines, it is configurable. I do know one large company is simply gluing them shut. That is one of the downsides of using USB keyboards/mice. I think Vista will have some admin options to disable classes of equipment.

i agree but some parts missing..

[mayhemt]

the author didnt convey how he dealt with NTFS rw access issues (or he didnt have to??!)... also..did anyone try MS exchange server/webmail thru firefox? & how crappy it is? i dont know if its prob with FF or with MS exchange server's dodgy asp. just to access my corporate email, i have to logon to windows box...(YUCCCK!)

I'm dual booting to it.

[airjrdn]

I manage a team of .NET/SQL Server devs (I was a dev here previously) and now that my time is spent mostly in office type applications, I can generally get through a day using Ubuntu only on my laptop. Wireless works, but only on open access points, so not here at work. Strangely, I don't have to take the laptop to that many meetings right now, so that's not a major problem. While I can get away with it though, my devs couldn't. I'm certain other departmental staff probably could though.

Sack of lies

[philmack]

Call me a troll or a flamebaiter if you must, but with the intent of installing linux in the workplace of "I don't have time to fiddle, all I care is whether or not it can do what I want, right now" there is no way to call this a victory. No exchange connectivity, locking out all other network clients, having to change the exchange server configuration... no way.

i work at a small company, and i can only imagine what would happen if even for 10 minutes all 70 employees didnt have access to the network shares or God forbid locked out of the exchange server. Or if someone "sneaked" onto a server to change what it serves. That last one doesnt actually take too much imagination... people have been fired for doing that.

This setting of this story seems more than a little fishy.

And i like open office plenty, but it is an alternative to office, not a substitute... when word/writer and excel/calc and powerpoint/impress documents dont look the same you cant effectivly collaborate with customers.

I love and use open source whenever i can, but at work i neither can nor may switch off of windows. ~Phil

Re:Sack of lies

[dingletec]

I don't think you are a troll or a flamebaiter... I just think you didn't read the article carefully enough. I have very similar responsibilities to the author, and have been using Linux on my desktop and laptop for several years. The author never mentioned making changes to the Exchange server that would affect the rest of the clients. I think the point is that Linux easily coexists on the network, not only for the purpose of replacing Windows. I don't see that happening for a long time at my company. I also use OpenOffice, Evolution, etc. to access company resources and distribute documentation. As a network admin, I can't imagine living without the resources and tools available on Linux. But I admit I don't run into many who think and operate the same as I do.

Re:OO2 separate package

[Anonymous Coward]

OO2 is a separate package from OO1 and the update manager wont automatically change it, I believe the current comes with both installed at the same time(at least the iso I downloaded did). You may need to uncomment the other repositories in /etc/apt/sources.list to be able to stat and apt them.

look into crossover office

[jasonhamilton]

Crossover office can bridge that gap by letting you run ms office, photoshop, dreamweaver, etc.

They have a free trial too. I'm impressed with it.

Re:look into crossover office

[lucifuge31337]

Crossover office can bridge that gap by letting you run ms office
XP

, photoshop,
6.0

dreamweaver, etc.
From 2 years ago.

Yes...it's nice to be able to do something with it, but the support is horribly out of date.

Re:Haven't used Linux...

[eno2001]

Suffice it to say that when my Linux using friends are scrambling to figure out how to get their machine to boot, figure out how to do simple things like change the screen resolution and griping about .config files, I'm always up and running without a glitch.

Apparently they don't know much about computers then. Do they? And neither do you...

Re:Haven't used Linux...

[timeOday]

So what's your point, that Windows and Linux really are interchangeable? I'm pretty sure MS doens't see it that way, and they certainly don't want their customers to see it that way.

men

[Anonymous Coward]

lol "ubuntu"

Just ship it.

[davro]

Have been using ubuntu on my desktop and laptop now for over a year.
The realase every 6 months and ship it for free https://shipit.ubuntu.com/ sold it for me.
Ubuntu is also now Certified for IBM DB2 and is moving into Enterprise computing with IBM's certification of Ubuntu as "Ready for IBM DB2 Software for Linux"

Have also helped about 30-35 people get up and running with the help of the cd's live/install x86 64bit machines

My 2p

[BenjyD]

I've been using Breezy Ubuntu since one of the preview releases and it is certainly one of the best linux distros I've used. That said, I do have a few problems, including random panel crashes when closing large groups of windows and some other oddities. Setting up network printers etc was easier than Windows, and I like the new Nautilus look. As OSS desktops go, it's very stable and usable.

you lose

[DrSkwid]

http://nvidia.com/object/LO_20020702_5500.html

Media and Communications Processor (MCP)

Part of the NVIDIA nForce and nForce2 platform processing architectures, the MCP replaces the "Southbridge" of traditional motherboard architectures. The MCP (including the MCP-D and MCP-T) delivers the most complete suite of integrated networking and communications devices including Ethernet, HomePNA 2.0, IEEE-1394a/FireWire(R) port, and up to six USB ports. In addition, the integrated audio processing unit (APU) provides support for Dolby(R) Digital 5.1 encoding.

Re:Office computer = your computer

[Anonymous Coward]

At my house I have nothing but Windows machines which all run great (no anti-virus needed). Windows is only as problematic at the operators using it, if its secured well to keep things out you dont need to waste time scanning to remove something already there.

Now that I am at college now I have my laptop running dual boot WinXP and Ubuntu. Windows I use solely for my windows programming assignments (written and compiled first in Ubuntu), and gaming.

At work I do web Programming and the web dept. has only Mac computers, I have no real quarrel with OSX but there are several quirks with a few programs that I just cant stand. I simply bring in my laptop with ubuntu and jack-in do most of my work from there.

Ubuntu + Citrix = Boss doesn't even know

[matgyver]

I am the IT Director for our company and I also installed Ubuntu on my laptop at work, and pretty much use Ubunutu for everything now. On a rare occasion I may boot into Windows. Of course I cheat a little, we have a Citrix server, so if I need to run a Windows app, I just fire up the Citrix client and away we go. I had a meeting with my boss a few days ago, in which I had show some MS Access stuff to him, he didn't even know I was running Linux.

I did something like that...

[Hymer]

...with my laptop and SuSE 9.1 in dec. 2004, it pretty quick became my primary workstation... and it still is my primary workstation (now upgraded to 9.3)... noone has noticed anything.
Oh yaeh... everything is working ! if something does not work it is because I did not want it to work (= i do not have any use of it).

/.ed. Tee hee

[Anonymous Coward]

"Linux Journal Is Currently Unavailable Due to a Denial of Service (DoS) Attack"

That cracks me up.

U Haven't seen sunlight!

[Anonymous Coward]

You don't know your latin! Virii is correct. Teh net has spoken. You are wrong. Get over with it. Get a life. Move on. Over...

The inevitable oMS Office

[flatass]

I often wonder why this doesnt come up more ofter during discussions of this nature, but here goes. Seems to me that if the only roadblock to a desktop linux change at a given company is MS OFfice, why not setup a terminal server wirh or without citrix. Then use rdesktop or citrix to run Office? Just wondering why I havent heard this suggested before.

For a larger businesses...

[Keichann]

I've been wondering for a while about the posibilities for Debian-based systems in the workplace, and here are a few things I've come up with:

- Package repositories on a corporate server
- Instead of 'contrib'/'multiverse' etc., group packages by the department/team that will need them. For example, 'base' (for all systems, all packages must be installed), 'developers', 'finance', 'power-users' etc.
- The desktop team can vet packages for stability etc. before they are sent to all systems during the quarterly/monthly updates.
- By-pass dpkg's configuration stage using pre-built configs.
- Run 'aptitude dist-upgrade' as a cron-job scheduled once per day to catch any important security updates.

Obviously, this targets large businesses, but I've never heard of anyone considering something like this. If I've missed anything super-important, please correct me before I ever try to implement it :)

Re:For a larger businesses...

[Tourney3p0]

That's exactly what we do at the University of Tennessee Electrical and Computer Engineering department. Works well for us. Although I wouldn't call us "large", I don't foresee any scalability problems in the near future.

Screw it - let them manage their Windows

[gelfling]

Seriously - I used to work mightily to run Linux on the desktop but in this Windows uber alles shop it gradually became less and less relevant. Most of our corporate applications are coded specifically for Windows, anyway. Hell most of our stuff wont work with non IE browsers. So just getting application parity was a bear.

And then they decided to roll out a quasi-managed desktop which basically amounts to continuous on line health checks and audits and reports going up to Big Brain Central with all sorts of red check marks for the things YOU'RE not compliant to whether or not those are relevant things for Linux. It's their machine, it's their management, but it's YOUR problem.

So I gave up. I'll have a nice compliant chubby resource choked 'managed' up the ass Windows standard client and at least now when something goes badly in the ditch I can just tell my manager "Shit that build blew up on me again, buncha things don't work so I'll be out of pocket for a few days."

My company finds that is an effective, economic and practical use of my time and their money and I honestly am done arguing this point with them.

Re:Screw it - let them manage their Windows

[Mark_Uplanguage]

You have been assimilated! (I just couldn't resist, because I know how you feel).

Linux? which Linux?

[lukOh]

In old good times I managed using debian at work with vmWare.

Their ticketing infrastructure only worked through a somewhat buggy delphi client.
All the rest I ever needed was reachable through my xterms, even an early staroffice.

Let's be clear on that: I got my new hyperfast laptop with XP these days and, hey, it works!
I can listen to online radios, make (free, OpenOffice) presentations, buy songs, copy my phone contactlist to disk, fight with ethereal dreaming for a real loopback, search my way through the last 10 best IM networks, then finally cygwin.

The problem is: it just feels no more no less like my old Pentium5. It's like buying a cray to write letters and play with naughty colored symbols, or going to a luna park not playing the bigger game.
It really depends: it's perfect for the good less techie guys down at Administration, but.. ..then I installed ubuntu. My productivity has grown 300%, I can do all above things together (with a real lo!) plus compile a kernel, debug some code, write some other, manage my data, organize security, set up services, fine-tune samba, work on servers..

I mean, with windows I can connect to the network, with Linux I can connect and/or even eventually bit-by-bit DEBUG that or anything I need to.

Freedom and opennes just feel like honest power.
If you feel you are able and can do more&better with Linux, tell your boss, then show him/her.
Corporates start to get the advantages.

Nortel Extranet client

[BrookHarty]

Nortel just wont let you download the linux client, and IT wont give it to me. So here I am, cant use linux to VPN into work.

For business use, we need a Nortel Extranet client that supports SecureID.

BTW, Switched to Ubuntu on my work laptop, love it. Infact its made me install debian testing and dapper on a few boxes, I've dumped Mandrake er, Mandriva now.

Re:Nortel Extranet client

[Anonymous Coward]

Can't download a Nortel Contivity Linux client? Did you "google" it at all? It took me all of about 10 seconds to find this web page: http://www130.nortelnetworks.com/cgi-bin/eserv/cs/ main.jsp?cscat=software&tranProduct=10621

Re:Nortel Extranet client

[cciechad]

Yeah but when you try to d/l it asks for a Nortel customer logon to check entitlement. Nortel gives you their Windows client for free with the box but for every other version you need you pay extra. Thats everyone should boycott Nortel VPN products. Cisco gives you all of their clients when you buy a concentrator.

Re:Haven't used Linux...

[Hymer]

"Windows gives you everything you need and more easily than Linux ever could."
So all your needed applications are preinstalled ? Wich version of Windows do you use ??
Even all the Windows admin tools (the adminpack.msi) are not fully installed in a std. Windows XP or 2000 installation,,, so no you can not "just do your admin stuff".

Re:Haven't used Linux...

[Anonymous Coward]

at the risk of sounding extremist, all the programmers i know who prefer windows to linux are sub-par. i typically do in a day what takes them a week. coincidence, maybe. but i think it speaks as much about the point/click OS that continually thwarts automation as the mentality of those who prefer it.

Mod parent up

[Anonymous Coward]

Mod parent up

Disabling USB

[robbkidd]

I do see the CD paranoia thing. My wife's company diables the CDROMs and floppies so that nobody can install "foreign" software. I'm not quite sure how they deal with USB , but I think they figure nobody at that office knows enough to use a key or a portable.

Quite simple in an AD environment with Windows XP. These instructions show up all over the place on the net, but most recently I've seen them written up at O'Reilly.

Disabling USB Storage With Group Policy

Re:Disabling USB

[jafac]

Also fairly trivial to overcome.

Yank the box off the domain, and you pwn it.

However, there are hotfixes that apply local policies, and of course, your network admin could also have included one in the image that disables USB. Not so easy, but still possible to change.

Of course, all this requires local admin privileges. And of course, without domain admin privileges, it will be impossible to put the machine back on the domain.

Apps, maybe, but not OSes

[Brunellus]

The official line at my workplace (an all Windows 2000 shop) is no unauthorized installations, period.

I understand that this greatly simplifies the IT department's user-support tasks, and it certainly helps their security. Too many clueless users adding malware/spyware around here, anyway.

That said, I do run a number of "unauthorized" apps on my desktop:

• Firefox, so I can actually be productive while using the 'net for work. Having one window with lots of tabs is easier than being compelled to use IE (the only "authorized" choice)
• GAIM, for IM. No ads or spyware on GAIM, no worries there.
• PuTTY, so I can ssh to my home computer (handy)
• GIMP, for when I have to clean up drawings

. I think I've been fairly responsible with my choice of software. All are probably more secure than their "authorized" counterparts, and all make me more productive. Some--notably GIMP--I installed without asking anyone because it let me get the job done quickly, on time, and with a minimum of fuss.

I draw the line at installing Linux without permission, though. I'd have to defragment, repartition, install, set up shares and whatnot....it's a hassle, and too much to do undetectably. Never mind the fact that this office uses several proprietary apps that I can't run in Linux, anyway.

Re:Apps, maybe, but not OSes

[WhiteWolf666]

Does your IT department have an authorization process?

Depending upon their level of fascism, you might be able to suggest one.

Either they are of the bueacracy school of IT, in which case they'd love a new 'authorization' process so that users could jump through hoops to get a new piece of software, or they are of the 'We Knows Best!' school of IT, in which case you are screwed :)

This is not "Funny", it's true...

[Anonymous Coward]

$SUBJ

Microsoft Partner..

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm a consultant for a microsoft gold partner - I run ubuntu exclusively on my business laptop, and I use it to work with all of my clients, connecting to, debugging, sharing files with, and auditing windows servers. I'm currently sitting in a major client (a bank)'s datacenter, using my ubuntu laptop, whilst working on windows servers (and surfing via GPRS whilst waiting on something installing).

Isn't life great? ;)

Re:Microsoft Partner..

[Anonymous Coward]

You are not the only one... :-)

Over 2 years ; )

[Anonymous Coward]

I've been running dedrat on my laptop for over 2 years. I have a workstation at work too which is on the domain, which is basically a life support system for corporate email and my shell.

I use my laptop primarily when I am out in the field, doing ethical hacking, network testing, sniffing, you name it, I use it in the office as a second PC for finding things on the internet and looking stuff up since our proxy is DOG slow. It's on a dsl connection used for load testing etc.

I am allowed to connect this to the domain or this dsl, but not both at the same time. It's dhcp and netbios enabled.

If I built a windows laptop that could do all of this, it would easily be a 50k+ machine, in software licensing alone. If you don't believe me, price out a proprietary app that can do what nessus does; ) Since all of the tools I use are open source, it cost what the hardware did.

It can play eve-online, open word documents, connect to exchange and get email etc. If you simply keep your video driver installation on your hard drive you can even upgrade the kernel on it without wrecking the video driver.

Then again, I am a programmer/application security expert as well as a competent network engineer. I am not sure this would be a good thing for most users to try. If you update your kernel, as you should, most users would crap their drawers when they tried to log in to xwindows and got dropped to a shell prompt instead. Most wouldn't even remember the root password to install the driver, let alone how to actually run a program from command line. I bet half of them don't know about autocomplete.

I prefer it, because I don't trust microsoft, but I am not the average user.

It's a Dell Latitude D800. Spyware and virus free since I built it ;) Patched up to the minute and has the most current nVidia drivers installed. NIC and modem run like a champion.

l8,
AC

My workplace

[ajs318]

Where I work, most desktops are Mandrake 9 or 10, though we've had positive results from trials of Kubuntu so that's going to be the "new" standard. We have a few Windows machines for the beancounters -- they need to run some legacy app for compatibility with Group Head Office. Everything else is Linux. Hylafax for sending faxes, through a dual Xeon running Asterisk and fitted with a four-way ISDN30 card. Almost all our software is written in-house by a crack commando squadron of hackers, accessed through a web browser from anywhere we say, and precisely tailored for the work we do. Most of it is interpreted, so any question of making sure to distribute source code is moot.

With Linux on the desktop, we simply don't have to worry about licence issues. We could add another two dozen machines if we want and not have to pay anybody for the privilege. Users don't have the root password for their machines, so they can't install software {except in $HOME}; but since it's going to be Linux software, it's most probably Open Source anyway.

Re:My workplace

[hebie]

Just where do you work ???

Mine is a similar story

[sladey_slater]

I've been using Ubuntu since Warty Preview, but before that I went from Redhat, then on to Debian where I stuck for about 3 years... I administer a Windows AD based network... And it's always worked very nicely.

finally

[JimiSpier]

A story that didn't sound like the Linux terrorist's call for a Jihad..

Its nice to see a fair comparison between the two. I for one have both Windows and Ubuntu. Ubuntu is a great distro, I can see why he would use it..

vmware and vmplayer can be a useful tool

[sylvandb]

The [Mentor Graphics EDA] tools are buggy enough in Windows. I can't imagine running them in WINE.

This app, that app... rather than wine, how about the newly free vmplayer (in beta right now)?

The biggest problem is hardware support. I develop hardware support kernel drivers for Windows, so my underlying OS needs to be Windows in many cases. However, for a few days now I've been running Ubuntu (Breezy, upgraded from the provided Hoary image) in a VMWare player session. Works great.

So is there any reason why a migration cannot begin this way? I think not. Start by running Ubuntu in vmplayer. Figure out what works well and what doesn't. The next step would be to reverse the situation and run Ubuntu native, and Windows in vmplayer underneath for the last app(s) that only run under Windows. It sure is nice and easy to distribute a vmplayer image with Windows and the required app(s) already installed (see sysprep). Makes it trivial to "reimage" when problems arise (and all without using 'ghost').

Most apps are going to be just fine in a vmplayer session. The more people run them that way, the more requests Mentor Graphics et al will get for 'native' versions. The more requests, the more likely and the sooner such versions will be developed.

Why even bother? I find that obtaining and tracking software licenses at work is very painful. Using free software as much as possible, means that anything non-free is 'required' and provided and so someone else will deal with the licenses. So I use 'free' as much as I can. Maybe I save money, maybe I don't. But I save time and aggravation. The relief is palpable.

sdb

I am glad I am working where I am...

[Anonymous Coward]

My company is just great. I decided to install Ubuntu on my work desktop. They let me do it. When I keep saying "let me reboot to windows to do visio stuffs" or "Alright, let me boot up to windows to work on the project file" they ended up giving me a second computer for my Linux box. As a result, I work better, since I can save time booting back and forth.

So, what did he get paid to do?

[Anonymous Coward]

Frankly, I had to have a long talk with one of my employees about 2 months ago on something very simular. He still works for the company, but, suddenly, his productivity increased.

He was spending all his "free time" playing with anything but the work he was assigned(and paid) to do. His excuses where always "this will help out the company, if I can get it to work right" when other employees asked him what he was doing as they where covering the work he was supposed to be doing until I discovered what he was doing and put an end to it.

If your being paid to do certain work. You do the work your asked to do. If you want to do something extra/different, ask that it be part of your work load. If you feel that management just won't understand until they see the final results, do it on your lunch break(off the clock) or whenever your not being paid to do something else.

Question

[HangingChad]

I'm wondering how many of you using a Windoze environment at work are running Linux at home? I am, just wondering how many other people do. I've got one token Winders box at home but the majority of the network is Linux.

Makes you wonder how long it's going to stay that way?

Re:Question

[dodongo]

I actually use Windows and OS X at work, primarily OS X. I have an iBook (my line of work requires lots of very basic video editing, so iMovie is a godsend), which I use for those work-related things that require OS X compatibility. I use the Windows boxen when needed for various compatibility considerations. My actual home desktop, where I do most of my "power using" is an Ubuntu 5.10 box.

Re:Haven't used Linux...

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, but I bet their shift keys aren't broken.

Re:Haven't used Linux...

[DogDude]

I haven't been a professional programmer in years. Right now, I'm just a simple user. I don't have the time to dick around with our computers. They are just a tool that runs our business. Automation may be important for a medium to large sized corporation, but for a small business like ours, we need them to run and be consistent and be able to do their thing for days, weeks, and months at a time with no intervention.

Re:Linux in on desktops in general.

[cayenne8]

"I have been using Ubuntu on the business desktop for about two years.."

Hell, I've been using Linux (Gentoo) on 2 workstations for years...on DoD networks...and even after NMCI took over. I left the nmci POS alone as a basic paperweight, useless for all work I do. I've been able to keep my Linux boxes up and running on my desktop to hit the various networks I need to...to admin to my boxes I'm in charge of.

Hard to slip in there...but, I'm not the only admin that has managed to do it. I can interract just fine with those who are on win stations...AND, I can still do my work in an efficient manner.

It isn't that hard to use linux in the office of windows users...but, sometimes is hard to get them on the network with harsh policies.

It may be hard to do...but, it CAN be done.

Ubuntu on the academic desktop

[Pixie_From_Hell]

I'm a math professor at a Windows-centric university. When I got my current job they let me have an old PC running (of all things) Windows 98. I struggled along with it for about a month until my boss (the chair) told me I could do anything I want with it. Soon I was a happy Debian user!

Since then I got a new PC (a real one this time), on which I'm running Ubuntu. I've converted at least 3 other people in the department to Ubuntu (from MS Windows -- there are a couple other Linux users around, too).

Sure there have been some issues. Exchange? Printing? Networking? Sound? Nah -- the biggest problem I've had is that LaTeX/dvips/etc were configured to use A4 paper rather than letter.

Back when I was coping with my old machine (450 MHz, some pittance of RAM), a new PC arrived in the department. It was either for me or for a grad student who needed to run Mathematica. The Chair called the IT department and asked if my old warhorse could handle this (of course I was running Mathematica under Debian, but...). He was told that this box could run Windows XP or Mathematica, but not both. The grad student got the machine and I had to wait another couple of months. Sigh.

Give me a break, please....

[thoughtcr1mes]

From the article: "The short story is that Ubuntu can do everything I need to do on a business desktop..." Wait a minute. The author then goes on to say things like, "Exchange support seemed to be rather buggy and crash prone, and because Evolution is integrated into parts of the desktop, my desktop was soon littered with the burnt, twisted corpses of panel applets and daemons." Give me a break. "So, not exactly a quick and painless set up, but having done it once it would probably only take five minutes or so to do it again... though I'm a little concerned about the practicality of rolling out a large number of Ubuntu clients in an enterprise environment." And you're advocating its readiness in the same piece? I love Linux and I use Ubuntu, but let's be honest here: If you're asking whether it can do these things, then the answer is yes, but it's a hack. What kind of acceptable business software in this decade requires that we edit text files to get it working? To be fair, Ubuntu is being used in a way it's not exactly designed to do- it's being integrated into a Microsoft shop. The fact that Linux can do that at all is commendable, and I take my hat off to the Linux community. In all honesty, however, unless you're a Linux guru, the human interface for this kind of setup is just not there in Ubuntu- yet.

Re:Haven't used Linux...

[DogDude]

Apparently they don't know much about computers then. Do they? And neither do you...

"Knowing computers" isn't my job. My job is to run a business. I also can't change the timing belt on my car. I'm not a mechanic, either. what's your point?

MOD PARENT INTERESTING!!

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey mods
The parent's comments is one of the few that catches my interest anymore.
MOD IT UP!

Re:Haven't used Linux...

[DogDude]

What admin stuff do I have to do? We've got a file server, and a bunch of workstations that run point-of-sale and financial apps. Why should I have to take time out of my schedule to "admin" my computers? Set them up, install the apps, and go. Why should it be more complicated than that when my business is not administering computers?

Re:Haven't used Linux...

[Maniacal]

I'm glad you posted this. I would have modded you insightful instead of funny but this is /. and most readers here think you must be kidding.

I like Ubuntu. I like Linux. I was excited to read the article. I want to hear about successful "Linux on the business desktop" stories. I was let down. Reading through the article all I could think was "what a pain in the ass". I have a Ubuntu desktop running next to me in my office. I installed it with the intention of proving we could run Linux on some of our desktops but have been disappointed over and over.

Windows boxes and software works best for users and administrators of Windows networks. That article actually does a good job proving that. The author then had the balls to mention the money he could save not having to buy Windows and Office. With the time he spent screwing with it he lost money.

I want an article about how a company switched their front ends AND back ends to *NIX and how that was successful for them. Quit trying to integrate Linux desktops into Windows networks. You might be successful but it'll never be more than a hack that will break one day for one reason or another.

It's like a bunch of people are running around trying to prove you can easily eat a bowl of spaghetti with a spoon because spoons are free. Buy a friggin fork or stop eating spaghetti.

Re:Sounds like a nightmare...

[PitaBred]

And keep the viruses, spyware, user-hostile and expensive software? No thanks, I'll jump a few hurdles to have a fully functional OS that doesn't go out of its way to hamstring me in the name of some corporate interest.

Re:Haven't used Linux...

[eno2001]

Then you have no business commenting on things you don't know about. If you're a business user, why are you commenting on this? What input do you have in this discussion and WHY are you even reading this article? In other words what do YOU have to prove?

Not a good idea...

[Eric Damron]

I'm squarely in the Linux corner and use it at home all of the time. But if I were to install it on my PC at work I would definitely get reprimanded and maybe even fired.

The network people's job is to keep the network up, running and safe. Although I know Linux is far more secure than Windows I would be overstepping my bounds if I unilaterally made a change to the network.

I've been thinking of how I could use Linux in my programming job at work. I was thinking of buying a laptop and installing Linux. It does have some tools that would be helpful like the UML editor "Umbrello." As long I I use my own equipment and don't connect to the network they won't get upset. I could use a flash drive to transfer data. Although they don't have a warm and fuzzy feeling about that.

My Ubuntu review...

[kronocide]

I had to install some Linux dist on an old laptop with a 700MHz PIII and 64MB of RAM recently. Ubuntu froze at 52% when starting the disk partition program. (End of review.) SuSE, my old favorite, said I had too little memory to run the installation program. (WTF?) I went back to my first dist, Slackware, and discovered to my infinite delight that absolutely nothing has happened to its installation program the last 10 years. :-) It runs like clockwork, and apparently it should run on a 486 with 4MB of RAM as well. _That's_ Linux.

Re:My Ubuntu review...

[skyphix]

Its odd that you had that problem... my daily laptop is a P2 400 with 256mb of ram and the only issue I have is occasionally on bootup (once a month?) I run into a freeze at "starting hotplug subsystem"... I've searched, found that its a common problem on different laptop platforms, and just try again. It works then. Though I agree with you that the old days of Linux running on a 486 have passed, for the most part. Its nice to know that slackware is keeping that tradition alive. I know Debian has a flavour that will do that too...

Re:Haven't used Linux...

[NineNine]

Well smartass, if you read my post, you'd know that I run a business. I own it. My business isn't IT, but it does run on computers, and I make all IT decisions. And, I happen to be a former geek. So if anything, I'm more qualified to talk about this subject than either a geek OR a businessperson.

Re:Haven't used Linux...

[ender-]

So what's your point, that Windows and Linux really are interchangeable? I'm pretty sure MS doens't see it that way, and they certainly don't want their customers to see it that way.

And why should we care what MS wants? That's like saying, "Well, Castro wants the whole world to be Communist, so we'd better just go the way he sees it."

Forget what MS wants. Use the OS that lets you get your work done easily, stabley[sp?] and securely.

no one care's here

[kokoko1]

where I work is 100% M$, and me and my other senior (whom i movitated to install linux) running Linux (slackware). Okay interesting thing is that there are 350+ desktop machine in the building and can you believe me all of them (-2) running pirated Copy of MS Windows and bundle with pirated softwares ie MS Office etc. No the other side I have three OS install on my box (Slackware, Debian, OpenBSD) with zero piracy :), slackware is my primary desktop. So i'm the proud user in the company. My co-workers just amazed about my system with no downtime, never reinstall the OS after joing the company, and they have to install there boxes time to time. Hey did I tell you that its hard to convince them to use Linux, coz they don't have to pay a penny for that crape (MS), nor the company cares after all company is 100% running on pirated windows.

Ubuntu? Too risque.

[t35t0r]

Too seckzy for me and my business. No one would get any work done!

Re:Ubuntu? Too risque.

[kronocide]

I think you mean too risky, although Risque Linux sounds like a cool dist aimed at pr0n surfers running on Alpha. :-D

Re:Ubuntu? Too risque.

[kronocide]

Sorry, I didn't understand "seckzy" first time off, my l33t 5p34k isn't what it's been. I guess you did mean risque. ;-)

Re:Haven't used Linux...

[eno2001]

And you're also the same loudmouth dumbass I dealt with many times a Trolling4Dollars. Your the same guy who loaded up a bunch of credit cards to operate your PORN (not that I have anything against porn) "business" and who actually thinks that being in debt is a great thing. Oh and by the way... ninenine.com sucks. If you want you want good and REALLY FREE pron, check out Sublime Directory. Stick it up your craw NineNine. You and your whole neocon self righteousness.

It would have been better

[Sir_Cockalot]

if he installed it on his bosses computer without him noticing.

Re:Haven't used Linux...

[Anonymous Coward]

So that makes you pro-Lunix then right? Because everyone knows the Microsoft Windows is not the secure. I thinken that you are a damn liar.

I tried it too...

[citizenklaw]

Ubuntu on My business Laptop, but under VMWare. I liked it because GNOME has a lot of little trinkets and doodads around it that make it more productive than WinBlows. For example, all of the applets available for the deskbars (stock tickers, weather, stickies). Stuff that you have to pay extra in WinBlows (or risk a nasty case of spyware infection). Another thing that I liked was clicking the date in GNOME brought a big old kick ass calendar that linked it to Ubuntu. The multiple desktops are of course another point that I like over Winblows. Yes, I know that there are multiple products for Win that do the same. I've installed a couple and the Windows box just takes a performance hit. With GNOME and KDE it seems only natural. When toying around with Linux on VMWare I usually distribute my windows as follows: one for web browsing, one for messaging, one for Office apps and the last one for pr0n. You gotta have some rest for tired eyes at 4:15 PM! :-P I was wondering what it would take a company with deep pockets and an equally deep hatred of M$ to just screw them and customize its on distro. With internal (and external?) facing 'official' software repositories. I get the creeps everytime I go to a bank and see a WinNT 4.0 login screen.

Because....

[Run4yourlives]

Citrix is the spawn of satan, and 90% of all users hate it.

MadPenguin running on FreeBSD

[Zemplar]

Time for a domain name change to, perhaps, MadBeastie.com

Rekall

[Steeltoe]

You might be interested in 'Rekall'. It is very much like Access, made by the KDE-team and commercially supported. You can make forms, reports and it works off a real MySQL or other ODBC-database.

I would've used Rekall if my requirements wasn't met in vTigerCRM, another excellent and commercially-backed OSS/Free Software.

And yes, unlike Kexi, GNU enterprise and lots of other projects, Rekall is actually mature (well, seems like it, I haven't run anything complex on it). The only downer is its lack of Web-interface, but there is something called Rekallweb showing that it is doable and maybe it will be done in a few years.

Nonsense

[Anonymous Coward]

The myth that it's impossible to run Windows without admin privs is just that: a myth.

Yes, I will admit that there are many incorrectly coded 3rd party apps which balk at running in a nonadmin account. But once you know the trick, making almost all of them run nonadmin is easy.

The trick is a basic understanding of the Windows permissions system, and two utilities from sysinternals.com: FileMon and Regmon. Logon as a nonadmin account. Using RunAs (the Windows equivalent of sudo), get these running with admin privs, then fire up your balk 3rd-party app. When it burps, scan your FileMon/RegMon output for ACCESS_DENIED errors (and don't worry when you see BUFFER_OVERFLOW, it does not in this context mean what you were thinking it meant - google Russinovich's blog for details). Alter the permissions on those files such that the nonadmin account has the proper access.

Once you know this trick, it rarely takes more than 15 minutes per app to get things humming along happily in a nonadmin context. Once you understand the basics of Windows' permission system (too many *nix people just get mad and give up when they see it's not exactly the same as their beloved user/group/other read/write/execute system), you'll find this is a snap.

Toss in a little savvy documentation of your findings, and you'll find you have a secure and configurable Windows system. This is no harder or more complex than properly administering linux desktops.

Re:Haven't used Linux...

[Anonymous Coward]

And like most business owners and PHBs, you are making appalling bad IT decisions...:-)

Tie yourself up now

[Steeltoe]

If you still haven't tied yourself into Access proprietary formats, language and practices (we told you so it would be a bad idea), you can tie yourself now to KDE and Rekall: http://www.rekallrevealed.org/

Bonus-points for those who manage to tie themselves up in this _and_ MS Access or some other obscure format without having a path of migration ready. ;-)

Is this really a positive review?

[cenonce]

Not to be a nay-sayer, but is this really a positive review for Linux?

Here is a guy who clearly has above average computer knowledge and skills and look at all of the issues he has with integrating a Linux desktop distro with a Windows environment.

Unfortunately, what this tells me is that a guy like me, with enough computer/linux skills to get himself into trouble (and who happens to be the chief, cook and bottle-washer (as well as the computer tech) for my business) could never consider installing Linux on even one desktop in order to save me some money and licensing fees from M$.

I love Linux, but this is not a review that will say to the average user "Hmm... I'm going to switch to Linux." I just don't have the kind of time this guy had to make Linux work on my business' network and still have time to make money during the day. My guess is that neither do most other people.

reality check

[Blu-Ray]

As a former Admin I would say that its only the IT departments problem when you make us (IT department) come to solve your IT problem. Would we then find "any" not standard environment, we would solve this by putting a standard image on that hardware. End of problem.

point being: It is not the admins problem if you get your work done or not. Thats your bosses problem. :) If you don't report any problem, well :)

Best in such a situation would be to simply ask the IT department friendly guy if putting your preferred OS there is a possibility ..

in reality, unless you are doing trivial network related stuff, only an admin can bring in another OS and make it work with everything cause you need to know a whole pile of configuration stuff. :)

SAP

[mikaellennryd]

I'd love to use Linux, FreeBSD or even a Mac at work. But we need Windows to use SAP R/3 with our own modules or so they say... I have seen that SAP also made clients for Linux (according to an article from 1999 http://news.com.com/2100-1017-222343.html?legacy=c net) but HQ in germany doesn't want to hear about it.

Congratulations but Linux isn't ready

[Sithgunner]

All these, use Linux on workplace, is that you people are just plain lucky.

Linux, may have matured in the last few years quite much, yet the support for foreign language is by far behind compared to what Windows have been offering over a decade. That is to say, some of the core system is well ready for international support, but not every software author cares well into it, that it certainly does mess up with multi-byte string and whatnot when using our own language.

Also, there's plenty of application people use daily at workplace when there is not a decent alternative to that on Linux.

Being free as in price and usage is great. But I think doing so will certainly jeopartize what people can do at work. So, Linux on workplace only goes to lucky people who don't need much international support and needs only the popular softwares that have matured enough for all the people.

And I just hope Linux starts fixing these rough edges, so many many more people in the world starts considering the use of Linux, because right now, it just feels clumsy to use for a daily machine, just maybe not so for people who only use ascii alphabets.

Re:Haven't used Linux...

[uptoeleven]

There's no reason not to stick with Windows on your desktop in a Windows environment except where licensing is crippling your IT bill, suddenly free software looks tempting.

P.O.S. - the windows based POS machines are an interesting one. Of course I don't have the stats to hand, just my own experience as customer. But in my experience they crash with alarming regularity. Maybe it's just me and my bank card. And the other people I queue with. And the large chain stores I visit. Maybe the majority of people / card / queue / store combinations work fine and I'm the only one who has problems, somehow I doubt it. A lot of companies are willing to write off POS crashes as "well they're computers what do you expect?". Expecting your till not to crash is probably the least you ought to expect from a POS solution.

When you need to do some Windows admin stuff you just do it? What kind of admin do you do? What's your backup regime? Do you run disk quotas for users on servers? Do you run Exchange or other mail server? Do you have centralised scheduling? Windows doesn't GIVE you any of these, you pay for them through the nose. I presume you have a license for the copy of Office you are using...

WRT uptime and reliability - if I don't reboot my XP workstation every night I can't work the next day. I do a mixture of graphics (photoshop) and a bit of programming (php & mysql running on a standalone mambo server, nothing too taxing) and a bunch of office stuff. This is real standard stuff and Windows can't cope and has memory leaks. If your POS crashes chances are you're having the same problems but ignoring them. We all ignore them, we're all used to them, we need to get UNused to them and start being a bit more demanding of our business apps IMO.

Hey your Linux friends are scrambling around trying to get their Linux machines to boot. Here's how to do it.

1.) Insert Knoppix cd in cd drive.
2.) Restart computer.

There you go. Linux (well a bsd distro but same difference) on your pc. Sure they may be trying to recompile kernels and optimise stuff and that's hobbyist stuff, good for them, they enjoy the challenge. But I'll tell you what - next time you have a virus on your pc and don't want to boot it but want to back stuff off the harddrive without taking it out, try a Knoppix disk and a USB key. Data stored, machine safe til they come out with a fix for the virus, all done. Or you could use a DOS boot disk and try mounting the USB key & ntfs drives in DOS...

Odd

[brlewis]

I'm the only one at work who spools things from a Linux box. I occasionally see other people's jobs freeze and have to ask them to delete so mine can get through, but it's never gone the other way around. Sorry you had the opposite experience. I've been printing for about 5 years.