You say it's huge, but I'm not so certain on that. Can you name specific cases where vendors took a long time for kernel issues that should've been fixed quickly by all accounts?
On a related point, I've realized in the past that distro kernels took over the burden of reading security mailing lists. However, we can assume there is some testing involved which is added to your own testing before applying patches/upgrades to your boxes. So that's what you gain.
Now you can say that this doesn't really add something, and I agree that's a question of opinion.
BTW I have to say I appreciate the good discussion.
I see what you mean, however I think it's not fair to compare the packaging of an IM app to the kernel. If I'd venture to guess why anyone would not be happy with a vendor-supplied kernel, then it would be either of the following cases:
Security risks, in which case most vendors are supplying an update
Bugs, in which case most vendors are supplying an update
New hardware, in which case a) hardware vendor supplies binary module or b) vendor supplies kernel source to compile a module against
I had called it the accent key, but a better name would be the ' quote key, at least with my version of Firefox. The / forward slash turns on "find mode", the quote key turns on "find mode in links". Just type the quote and some characters in a link.
Your post got a -1, troll. And that's because every damn distro under the sun has the option to upgrade your kernel WITHOUT upgrading the entire distro.
You don't get it. This already *is* the current model. If you're a sysadmin and you want a dependable release scheme, you need to stick to the Linux kernels that come with your Linux distribution. That distribution typically takes a Linux kernel version and doesn't make big changes during the 2 to 3 year life cycle of the distribution.
I know, i know CLI is there but CLI browsers are no match for GUI browsers sadly.
Tips:
Use Firefox, then use PgUp and PgDown for scrolling. For clicking links, use the accent key and type the last characters of the first word in the link. Almost as fast as a mouse.
Install a good anti-RSI tool like Workrave. Set it to 1 minute break every 15 minutes, and 20 seconds short break every 3 minutes. And STICK TO THE BREAKS.
*Laughs* alright, they're not perfect. However, my point stays: it's no use rehashing the same old discussion about 2.6 and 2.7, because it's all hypothetical.
For me, it works. I'm using vendor-supplied kernels and they get paid for that. I'm not using vanilla kernels, I leave the testing up to the enthousiasts.
I've seen some insightful posts from you so I'm not assuming you're trolling. But this has been discussed to death. There are perfect kernels in the 2.6 series and they're created by your vendor. That's what Linus wants and that's how it goes.
So, why the trolling at the end of an otherwise good post? I'll quote Wikipedia for the people who have been living under a rock since 2.4:
The development model for Linux 2.6 was a significant change from the development model for Linux 2.5. Previously there was a stable branch (2.4) where only relatively minor and safe changes were merged, and an unstable branch (2.5), where bigger changes and cleanups were allowed. This meant that users would always have a well-tested 2.4 version with the latest security and bug fixes to use, though they would have to wait for the features which went into the 2.5 branch. The 2.5 branch was then eventually declared stable and renamed to 2.6. But instead of opening an unstable 2.7 branch, the kernel developers elected to continue putting major changes into the 2.6 "stable" branch. This had the desirable effect of not having to maintain an old stable branch, making new features quickly available, and getting more testing of the latest code.
However, the new 2.6 development model also meant that there was no stable branch for people just wanting security and bug fixes, and not needing the latest features. Fixes were only put into the latest version, so if a user wanted a version with all known bugs fixed they would also get all the latest features, which had not been well tested, and risked breaking things which had previously worked. A partial fix for this was the previously mentioned fourth version number digit (y in 2.6.x.y), which are series of point releases created by the stable team (Greg Kroah-Hartman, Chris Wright, maybe others). The stable team only released updates for the most recent kernel however, so this did not solve the problem of the missing stable kernel series. Linux distribution vendors, such as Red Hat and Debian, maintain the kernels which ship with their releases, so a solution for some people is to just follow a vendor kernel.
As a response to the lack of a stable kernel tree where people could coordinate the collection of bugfixes, in December of 2005 Adrian Bunk announced that he would keep releasing 2.6.16.y kernels when the stable team moved on to 2.6.17 [2]. He also plans to include driver updates, making the maintenance of the 2.6.16 series very similar to the old rules for maintenance of a stable series such as 2.4 [3].
Thanks for the informative comment. I'm from West-Europe and although there are national credit report agencies, they're not so fine-grained that they include small stuff (yet). But you're right, and although this can actually turn out to be a good thing, I'm pretty dumbfounded that such business have that big a (credit report) stick to hit their customers with.
Actually makes one think about limiting the risks by only engaging in shorttime contracts like a month. But most of the time, that's not available.
Hmmm.. I didn't know that your credit report could contain small stuff like this. But what is the effect, then? I mean, it's not like getting a mortgage is more difficult? Or is it?
Yes I would. Suppose my mobile phone operator regularly drops connection for hours on end. After contacting the helpdesk and getting a stupid reply (as expected) I would write a letter stating dates and times, and telling this isn't a reasonable service for my money and that I stop paying and the contract should be considered broken.
Well, I'm a business owner as well as a customer. The way I see it: as a customer, you have the right to pick a business or its competitor. The second right is to stop paying if the service provided isn't good enough. Seems like enough rights for me.
Bwehehehe! Yeah. And only yesterday, I cut out some pictures of beating cops from the newspaper. Together with the playboy channel, it turns out into a real nasty Monty Python-ish scene.
In my opinion, you're missing the shades of grey here. Call me crazy, but I see it as a game of negotiation. I think the director's tight on budgets. Maybe he got shortened, or maybe the budget froze. Or maybe they need to overrun this year's budget to make a big investment -- who knows. Anyway, he refreshed some relations, talked to officials and guess what, it's set in stone and he has to bite the bullet, or so he's told.
Like the good political game player, he seeks publicity. He doesn't make it too rough, but he sets the scene alright. Congress knows this and takes this into account. He fights for science, they have to make ends meet. It's a game and I think he plays it well.
After all, how many people now know they've got an aging satellite in orbit for the weather? A lot more than before this news item.
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You say it's huge, but I'm not so certain on that. Can you name specific cases where vendors took a long time for kernel issues that should've been fixed quickly by all accounts?
On a related point, I've realized in the past that distro kernels took over the burden of reading security mailing lists. However, we can assume there is some testing involved which is added to your own testing before applying patches/upgrades to your boxes. So that's what you gain.
Now you can say that this doesn't really add something, and I agree that's a question of opinion.
BTW I have to say I appreciate the good discussion.
I had called it the accent key, but a better name would be the ' quote key, at least with my version of Firefox. The / forward slash turns on "find mode", the quote key turns on "find mode in links". Just type the quote and some characters in a link.
Your post got a -1, troll. And that's because every damn distro under the sun has the option to upgrade your kernel WITHOUT upgrading the entire distro.
You don't get it. This already *is* the current model. If you're a sysadmin and you want a dependable release scheme, you need to stick to the Linux kernels that come with your Linux distribution. That distribution typically takes a Linux kernel version and doesn't make big changes during the 2 to 3 year life cycle of the distribution.
Here you are: Contoured USB keyboard
Use Firefox, then use PgUp and PgDown for scrolling. For clicking links, use the accent key and type the last characters of the first word in the link. Almost as fast as a mouse.
Buy a good keyboard, preferably from Kinesis.
Install a good anti-RSI tool like Workrave. Set it to 1 minute break every 15 minutes, and 20 seconds short break every 3 minutes. And STICK TO THE BREAKS.
*Laughs* alright, they're not perfect. However, my point stays: it's no use rehashing the same old discussion about 2.6 and 2.7, because it's all hypothetical.
For me, it works. I'm using vendor-supplied kernels and they get paid for that. I'm not using vanilla kernels, I leave the testing up to the enthousiasts.
I have to say that I'm not particularly interested in what the version number means...
I've seen some insightful posts from you so I'm not assuming you're trolling. But this has been discussed to death. There are perfect kernels in the 2.6 series and they're created by your vendor. That's what Linus wants and that's how it goes.
Thanks for the informative comment. I'm from West-Europe and although there are national credit report agencies, they're not so fine-grained that they include small stuff (yet). But you're right, and although this can actually turn out to be a good thing, I'm pretty dumbfounded that such business have that big a (credit report) stick to hit their customers with.
Actually makes one think about limiting the risks by only engaging in shorttime contracts like a month. But most of the time, that's not available.
Hmmm.. I didn't know that your credit report could contain small stuff like this. But what is the effect, then? I mean, it's not like getting a mortgage is more difficult? Or is it?
Yes I would. Suppose my mobile phone operator regularly drops connection for hours on end. After contacting the helpdesk and getting a stupid reply (as expected) I would write a letter stating dates and times, and telling this isn't a reasonable service for my money and that I stop paying and the contract should be considered broken.
Happens all the time with businesses.
Well, I'm a business owner as well as a customer. The way I see it: as a customer, you have the right to pick a business or its competitor. The second right is to stop paying if the service provided isn't good enough. Seems like enough rights for me.
Bwehehehe! Yeah. And only yesterday, I cut out some pictures of beating cops from the newspaper. Together with the playboy channel, it turns out into a real nasty Monty Python-ish scene.
Amen, brother. I own a HTC S710 and it's unbelievable the hype that Apple has been creating when you compare it to the offerings from HTC.
Prostitute business spikes during any convention.
In my opinion, you're missing the shades of grey here. Call me crazy, but I see it as a game of negotiation. I think the director's tight on budgets. Maybe he got shortened, or maybe the budget froze. Or maybe they need to overrun this year's budget to make a big investment -- who knows. Anyway, he refreshed some relations, talked to officials and guess what, it's set in stone and he has to bite the bullet, or so he's told.
Like the good political game player, he seeks publicity. He doesn't make it too rough, but he sets the scene alright. Congress knows this and takes this into account. He fights for science, they have to make ends meet. It's a game and I think he plays it well.
After all, how many people now know they've got an aging satellite in orbit for the weather? A lot more than before this news item.