> When I buy a CD for $17 dollars how much does the 'inventor' get?
But when was the CD invented ? The inventor should of made his share of profits by now.:-)
I'm for a system where patents last for a REASONABLE timeframe, say something like 5 years. That's enough time for an inventor to make his money, and then the public gets the benefit of it.
Of course big biz would just "wait-out-the-patent", but one counter argument is: I think they would be scrambling trying to contact the inventor and getting permission to use it, since which ever company the inventor had, would have a chance to make money before the patent expires. (Sorry for the run-on sentence. I hope the above was clear)
> How much would it really cost to deliver the music on that CD to the consumer and still give the inventor the same amount? The difference between those two numbers is monopoly inefficiency, and it's going to get worse.
Yeah, I agree. Someone is raking in all the profit margins, and it sure isn't the inventor.
Cheers
A rational and thoughtfull discussion on/. Will wonders never cease!?:-)
> I program for a living Profession game developer here.
> I have no problem with doing away with ALL copyright and patent laws regarding software..... I agree that patent laws on ALGORITHMS are pretty silly.
> it would be a good thing and programmers would end up making more money in the long run.
How? Can you shed any evidence for this?
> All copyright laws are is a government granted monopoly The orginal duration was short, so the inventor could profit for a limited time. Thats not bad. What is insane, is EVERYONE patenting EVERY bloody thing they think of, and making ideas "theirs" for a lifetime. THAT doesn't profit the arts and sciences, only a monopolistic business.
> and anyone who knows some simple economics can prove mathematically that monopoly is a BAD THING.
As a game developer, I'm constantly arguing with my co-workers that we should be porting our games (Linux, Be, Mac, etc.) The counter-argument, which I partly agree with, is the Linux game market isn't as now where as big compared to the Win32 gaming market. Yes I know, if we're not part of the solution, we're part of the problem.:-( At least I have 2 other co-workers who use Linux, so we have some interesting discussions on porting.
In the meantime, if customers want to see more Linux games, write to the game developers and politely ask them to port their games to Linux. Its not much, but its a start.
> In short, there will always be assholes abusing the system.
Agreed. I mentioned this in another post: People can be jerks within ANY set of game rules, which I think is part of the problem.:-(
Is there a solution? I don't think so. Whatever rules you do provide, someone, somewhere, WILL exploit it, or figure out a way to annoy other players with it.
> Online games, such as Ultima Online, and Everquest, have this same sort of community problem
Which specific problem? They have LOTS of problems.
You mean in UO where PKing gets a person ahead more then non-PKing? I know lots of PK guilds that regular "clean" the dungeons. There is NO reward for NOT PKing.
Or do you mean, where you can cast spells, and you are made responsible for someone else's action. i.e. you cast firewall (or some area effect), and some prick walks into it, and YOU are flagged as a criminal.
At least in EQ, you have the CHOICE of being PKd. And if someone is annoying you with spam, you can IGNORE them, UO doesn't even have that.
I think the main point was, Linux users want quality and fast drivers: why should we have to pay for drivers that should be provided by the video card provider? I don't have to pay for D3D or OpenGL drivers in the Windows world. Unfortunately getting "direct access" to the 3d card under Linux really isn't standarized at the moment.
> I like it when I see game developers choose OpenGL over Direct3D in the windows environment
You're not alone. As a 3d game developer, I get slightly depressed when I see other programmers in the industry, "sellout" to using D3D. Non-portable code, bad. Portable code, good.
OpenGL is sure joy to deal with. The spec is very orthogonal and complete.
Let game developers (and publishers) know that you want a OpenGL/Linux port. With enough people petitioning, something might actually be done.
> The contract can not take away rights that you have under law.
Not quite correct. Let me give an example in my field - software engineering, specifically: game development.
If I sign a NDA, I then can not use the argument "my right to freedom of speech permits me to disclose this info." as any judge would say "But you signed a contract limiting your rights."
In this case, a NDA contract is higher then law (assuming it wasn't signed under duress.)
Of course there are exceptions when a contract is lower then law, as it interferes with SOMEONE's right to life, liberty, or property. i.e. a contract to kill someone is illegal, no matter how you slice it.
> Insurance contracts, like EULAs, are "contracts of adhesion" -- you either accept the contract as offered or decline.
Interesting.
If a person never signs a contract, are EULAs still a valid contract? I thought contracts in order to be valid had to be agreed either a) orally, or b) signed.
I tend to think EULAs are valid by use, but I would like some "hard-proof". If you have any court rulings, links, that would be appreciated.
> Not only that, but Win2k is Microsoft's attempt to make NT a usefull OS - meaning you can play games on it. =)
They COULD of done it with NT 4 ! Proof: They included DirectPlay 6.1a in ServicePack5 without telling anyone ! Also, remember the nt4dx5 hack ? Microsoft REFUSED to supported hardware acceleration Direct3D under NT, but it DID work.
Thank God for a) OpenGL and b) Carmack showing customers & developers that NT was a capable game machine. (Quake running under Win95 and WinNT was within one frame per second difference.)
Look at MS laughing all the way to the bank, with all the suckers^H^H^H^H^H^H^H customers willing to be nickled and dimed to death just to play the latest games. i.e. Win95, Win96 (aka 95 OSR 1), Win 98, Win 99 (aka 98SE)
As a game developer I get slightly annoyed when all my co-workers (artists and programmers) use NT for game development, but marketing say the game only works under 95/98. Argh.
I'll be happy with Win2K ships, that means us few game developers that needed Win9X (for Direct3D) can finally ditch it for a stable OS. Still not as stable as Linux mind you, but NT does the job.
> And the numbers they crunch and their results, are just made of silicon? Yeah right.
That raises an interesing point: In one sense the numbers are just electronic pulses, but how we interrupt the data, gives it meaning. I think that's what makes the computer such a fascinating tool - we can manipulate binary data, and it can be either a) video, b) audio, c) symbolic, and yet the underlying data is still just numbers! Is there a phrase to describe this process?
> This reminds me of the room-temperature superconductor
Nice story of thinking outside the box. The problem is there is a fine line between thinking outside our paradigms, and being crazy;-) (Paraphrasing "Fine line between genious and insanity.)
> If man colonizes the ocean floor, perhaps his "baby clothes" will become a pressure suit.
Not if you're a mile underwater. The pressure is just too great. The physical universe has limits and laws, which was the point.;-)
> Man will never fly, because if we were meant to fly he would have wings.
Fallacious argument. You don't need wings to fly. *cough helicopter*
> Man will never break the sound barrier, because we will never be able to produce a Chuck Yeager.
Again another fallacious argument. The speed of sound (which has a limit) is independent of people.
> Man will never break the light barrier, because of the limitation of the brains of some physicists.
So the speed of light is a limitation of the brain? Huh?
> Stop saying things will never happen.
Man will never be able to reach the bottom of the ocean with just his baby clothes.
We can't go breaking the law of physics/math at will. Pi will never change. The trick is knowing what is impossible, and what is highly unprobable.
> That aside, what is a privilege is the convenience that a particular ISP provides. Abuse that privilege by using the ISP's services in an inappropriate manner, and it can be revoked. Of course, you can always get another ISP, or resort to the methods above. That's how spammers keep at it. They've been kicked off so many ISPs, so they find other ways to get on...and they keep succeeding.
Once again, another good post which I agree with.
I guess the only solution is to have the ISPs not forward spam, since as you mention, everyone has a "right" to the internet.
Seems like SPAM is going to be around for a while, since no laws are being broken by the bastards, er, spammers.
> UCITA is a state law. It can not regulate interstate commerce. That is usually taken to mean that as long as a law deals with out of state parites in the same way that it deals with instate parties, it is not considered a regulation of interstate commerge.
Ah, I did not know that. Thx for the clearing that up. I didn't realize one could use the power of a contract to get around the federal law, but it makes sense now that I think about it.
Do you have any links so that I could research this further?
Unfortunately, the Government CAN regulate commerce:
CONSTITUTION ARTICLE 1, Section 8 "To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes"
Now as to whether the UCC is LAW in a state, is another question, since the jurisdiction of the U.S is: "To excercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the Acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for..."
Remeber U.S != uSA
Read the orginal Declaration of Independence, and see that the founding fathers used "uSA":
Very nice post, which I agree with, but I would like to clarify one of your statements:
> Abuse the privilege, and it can be taken away...just like a driver's license
Travelling is a RIGHT, Driving is a privilege. You DON'T need a license to travel. I travel without one and without my car being registered by the government, and I have yet to be given a ticket for speeding or for driving without a license.
> HOW can victimless crimes really be a crime? >But more importantly WHERE do the police get the jurisdiction to give you a ticket in the first place since the roads ARE PUBLIC!?
> Funny, the thousands of people, including me, who have lost relatives to reckless drivers would hardly call it victimless.
The discussion was on SPEEDING, NOT ON the right to infringe on someone else's right to LIFE, LIBERTY, or PROPERTY.
> And btw, an International Driver's License is meaningless in Georgia (and probably most other states) unless accompanied by a valid license from another country
Thats not what the law officer's have told me.
The International Driver's Permit IS recognized in over 200 countries, the States included.
I personally know sovereigns who don't even bother with any kind of license. They freely travel.
Slashdot Mirror
> When I buy a CD for $17 dollars how much does the 'inventor' get?
:-)
/. Will wonders never cease!? :-)
But when was the CD invented ? The inventor should of made his share of profits by now.
I'm for a system where patents last for a REASONABLE timeframe, say something like 5 years. That's enough time for an inventor to make his money, and then the public gets the benefit of it.
Of course big biz would just "wait-out-the-patent", but one counter argument is: I think they would be scrambling trying to contact the inventor and getting permission to use it, since which ever company the inventor had, would have a chance to make money before the patent expires. (Sorry for the run-on sentence. I hope the above was clear)
> How much would it really cost to deliver the music on that CD to the consumer and still give the inventor the same amount? The difference between those two numbers is monopoly inefficiency, and it's going to get worse.
Yeah, I agree. Someone is raking in all the profit margins, and it sure isn't the inventor.
Cheers
A rational and thoughtfull discussion on
> I program for a living
Profession game developer here.
> I have no problem with doing away with ALL copyright and patent laws regarding software.....
I agree that patent laws on ALGORITHMS are pretty silly.
> it would be a good thing and programmers would end up making more money in the long run.
How? Can you shed any evidence for this?
> All copyright laws are is a government granted monopoly
The orginal duration was short, so the inventor could profit for a limited time. Thats not bad.
What is insane, is EVERYONE patenting EVERY bloody thing they think of, and making ideas "theirs" for a lifetime. THAT doesn't profit the arts and sciences, only a monopolistic business.
> and anyone who knows some simple economics can prove mathematically that monopoly is a BAD THING.
In the long run, yes.
Cheers
As a game developer, I'm constantly arguing with my co-workers that we should be porting our games (Linux, Be, Mac, etc.) The counter-argument, which I partly agree with, is the Linux game market isn't as now where as big compared to the Win32 gaming market. Yes I know, if we're not part of the solution, we're part of the problem. :-( At least I have 2 other co-workers who use Linux, so we have some interesting discussions on porting.
In the meantime, if customers want to see more Linux games, write to the game developers and politely ask them to port their games to Linux. Its not much, but its a start.
Cheers
> In short, there will always be assholes abusing the system.
Agreed. I mentioned this in another post: People can be jerks within ANY set of game rules, which I think is part of the problem. :-(
Is there a solution? I don't think so. Whatever rules you do provide, someone, somewhere, WILL exploit it, or figure out a way to annoy other players with it.
> P.S. I develop online games professionally.
Small world. I'm a 3d game programmer at www.cyberlore.com
Designer Dragon has some interesting articles on online games:
http://www.legendmud.org/raph/g aming/lawsindex.htmlhttp://www.legendmud.org/raph/gaming
Cheers
Interesting post.
> anonymity is not always the solution.
Why doesn't ignoring them work?
What specifically are the "problems" ?
Granted, people can be jerks within ANY set of game rules, which I think is part of the problem.
Cheers
> Online games, such as Ultima Online, and Everquest, have this same sort of community problem
Which specific problem? They have LOTS of problems.
You mean in UO where PKing gets a person ahead more then non-PKing? I know lots of PK guilds that regular "clean" the dungeons. There is NO reward for NOT PKing.
Or do you mean, where you can cast spells, and you are made responsible for someone else's action. i.e. you cast firewall (or some area effect), and some prick walks into it, and YOU are flagged as a criminal.
At least in EQ, you have the CHOICE of being PKd. And if someone is annoying you with spam, you can IGNORE them, UO doesn't even have that.
Cheers
I think the main point was, Linux users want quality and fast drivers: why should we have to pay for drivers that should be provided by the video card provider? I don't have to pay for D3D or OpenGL drivers in the Windows world.
Unfortunately getting "direct access" to the 3d card under Linux really isn't standarized at the moment.
You do have a point though.
> I like it when I see game developers choose OpenGL over Direct3D in the windows environment
You're not alone. As a 3d game developer, I get slightly depressed when I see other programmers in the industry, "sellout" to using D3D. Non-portable code, bad. Portable code, good.
OpenGL is sure joy to deal with. The spec is very orthogonal and complete.
Let game developers (and publishers) know that you want a OpenGL/Linux port. With enough people petitioning, something might actually be done.
Cheers
> VS440FX mobo with PPro 180 o/c to 200 (big f'ing deal)
;-) ;-)
I had the exact same config (w/ 64MB ram), until I upgraded 2 months ago:
2 * $35 cel 366 o/c to 550
2 * $30 heatsink/fan from www.3dfxcool.com
1 *$135 abit bp6 - dual cel board
1 *$300 pc100-128MB
I kept my Voodoo2 and Matrox Millennium 2, since they work fine.
I upgraded cuz Thief was starting to bog down around level 4. The levels are HUGE.
The dual cpu's make compiling a joy.
Cheers
Aside, if you look up "Corporate Sole" in Blacks Law Dictionary, you will see they are a legal entity that exists for perpuity.
NOW, WHY is the Queen of England a Corporate Sole !?!?
Cheers
> The contract can not take away rights that you have under law.
Not quite correct. Let me give an example in my field - software engineering, specifically: game development.
If I sign a NDA, I then can not use the argument "my right to freedom of speech permits me to disclose this info." as any judge would say "But you signed a contract limiting your rights."
In this case, a NDA contract is higher then law (assuming it wasn't signed under duress.)
Of course there are exceptions when a contract is lower then law, as it interferes with SOMEONE's right to life, liberty, or property. i.e. a contract to kill someone is illegal, no matter how you slice it.
> Insurance contracts, like EULAs, are "contracts of adhesion" -- you either accept the contract as offered or decline.
Interesting.
If a person never signs a contract, are EULAs still a valid contract? I thought contracts in order to be valid had to be agreed either a) orally, or b) signed.
I tend to think EULAs are valid by use, but I would like some "hard-proof". If you have any court rulings, links, that would be appreciated.
Thx.
I'm checking out Michael Froomkin's page.
Cheers
> Not only that, but Win2k is Microsoft's attempt to make NT a usefull OS - meaning you can play games on it. =)
They COULD of done it with NT 4 ! Proof: They included DirectPlay 6.1a in ServicePack5 without telling anyone ! Also, remember the nt4dx5 hack ? Microsoft REFUSED to supported hardware acceleration Direct3D under NT, but it DID work.
Thank God for a) OpenGL and b) Carmack showing customers & developers that NT was a capable game machine. (Quake running under Win95 and WinNT was within one frame per second difference.)
Look at MS laughing all the way to the bank, with all the suckers^H^H^H^H^H^H^H customers willing to be nickled and dimed to death just to play the latest games.
i.e.
Win95,
Win96 (aka 95 OSR 1),
Win 98,
Win 99 (aka 98SE)
As a game developer I get slightly annoyed when all my co-workers (artists and programmers) use NT for game development, but marketing say the game only works under 95/98. Argh.
I'll be happy with Win2K ships, that means us few game developers that needed Win9X (for Direct3D) can finally ditch it for a stable OS. Still not as stable as Linux mind you, but NT does the job.
Cheers
> And the numbers they crunch and their results, are just made of silicon? Yeah right.
That raises an interesing point: In one sense the numbers are just electronic pulses, but how we interrupt the data, gives it meaning. I think that's what makes the computer such a fascinating tool - we can manipulate binary data, and it can be either a) video, b) audio, c) symbolic, and yet the underlying data is still just numbers! Is there a phrase to describe this process?
> This reminds me of the room-temperature superconductor ;-) (Paraphrasing "Fine line between genious and insanity.)
;-)
Nice story of thinking outside the box. The problem is there is a fine line between thinking outside our paradigms, and being crazy
> If man colonizes the ocean floor, perhaps his "baby clothes" will become a pressure suit.
Not if you're a mile underwater. The pressure is just too great. The physical universe has limits and laws, which was the point.
Cheers
> Humans are just simple chemical reactions.
And the concepts/ideas we think of, are just checimal reactions, too? Yeah right.
Yeah, I know, don't feed the trolls...
> Man will never fly, because if we were meant to fly he would have wings.
Fallacious argument. You don't need wings to fly. *cough helicopter*
> Man will never break the sound barrier, because we will never be able to produce a Chuck Yeager.
Again another fallacious argument. The speed of sound (which has a limit) is independent of people.
> Man will never break the light barrier, because of the limitation of the brains of some physicists.
So the speed of light is a limitation of the brain? Huh?
> Stop saying things will never happen.
Man will never be able to reach the bottom of the ocean with just his baby clothes.
We can't go breaking the law of physics/math at will. Pi will never change. The trick is knowing what is impossible, and what is highly unprobable.
Cheers
> That aside, what is a privilege is the convenience that a particular ISP provides. Abuse that privilege by using the ISP's services in an inappropriate manner, and it can be revoked. Of course, you can always get another ISP, or resort to the methods above. That's how spammers keep at it. They've been kicked off so many ISPs, so they find other ways to get on...and they keep succeeding.
Once again, another good post which I agree with.
I guess the only solution is to have the ISPs not forward spam, since as you mention, everyone has a "right" to the internet.
Seems like SPAM is going to be around for a while, since no laws are being broken by the bastards, er, spammers.
Cheers
> UCITA is a state law. It can not regulate interstate commerce. That is usually taken to mean that as long as a law deals with out of state parites in the same way that it deals with instate parties, it is not considered a regulation of interstate commerge.
Ah, I did not know that. Thx for the clearing that up. I didn't realize one could use the power of a contract to get around the federal law, but it makes sense now that I think about it.
Do you have any links so that I could research this further?
Cheers
Unfortunately, the Government CAN regulate commerce:
..."
/ decorig.jpg
CONSTITUTION
ARTICLE 1, Section 8
"To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes"
Now as to whether the UCC is LAW in a state, is another question, since the jurisdiction of the U.S is:
"To excercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the Acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for
Remeber U.S != uSA
Read the orginal Declaration of Independence, and see that the founding fathers used "uSA":
http://www.nara.gov/exhall/charters/declaration
Cheers
> Abuse the privilege, and it can be taken away...just like a driver's license
Travelling is a RIGHT, Driving is a privilege. You DON'T need a license to travel. I travel without one and without my car being registered by the government, and I have yet to be given a ticket for speeding or for driving without a license.
Here is a list of DOCUMENTED rulings.
Driver Licensing vs. the Right to Travel
Cheers
> Doin a little brown-nosin', eh?
No, I just thought the above author seemed to correctly summarize the situation.
I could care less about the author's karma. =P
Someone please moderate the above post up.
The above author UNDERSTANDS the situtation.
> So, if I spray a neighborhood with bullets, but don't hit anyone or anything
And who's property does the bullets land on when they eventually come down?
Speeding != Reckless driving. Stop assuming they are the same thing.
> HOW can victimless crimes really be a crime? >But more importantly WHERE do the police get the jurisdiction to give you a ticket in the first place since the roads ARE PUBLIC!?
> Funny, the thousands of people, including me, who have lost relatives to reckless drivers would hardly call it victimless.
The discussion was on SPEEDING, NOT ON the right to infringe on someone else's right to LIFE, LIBERTY, or PROPERTY.
Please don't confuse the two issues.
Cheers
> And btw, an International Driver's License is meaningless in Georgia (and probably most other states) unless accompanied by a valid license from another country
Thats not what the law officer's have told me.
The International Driver's Permit IS recognized in over 200 countries, the States included.
I personally know sovereigns who don't even bother with any kind of license. They freely travel.
Cheers