The scariest thing about this statement is that people have phones set to auto-connect to strange wifi connections with no interaction necessary, and the implication that they don't know how to disconnect themselves from wifi networks. After consideration, the second part isn't hard to believe, but it's been so long since I had a phone with a default configuration from a provider that I don't recall whether the first is the standard configuration. If it is, it shouldn't be, as you can't trust a random wifi connection at all.
Otherwise we would never have had the initial spaces vs tabs discussion
I still don't know why that discussion ever started in the first place. We use the TAB key to indent, why should that ever insert SPACES?! That's what the SPACE bar is for; TAB should insert tabs. End of story, amirite?
It's because way way way back, "editors" weren't able to vary the tab into anything other than 8 space representations. Thus, a group of people stuck on 80 column monitors would indent twice and holy crap, 16 characters per line were gone. Add that to that idiotic Hungarian notation that added up to 10 prefix characters to your variables, and wow, you would take over 305 lines to write
for(int i = 0; i < z.length; i++) { z[i] = z[i] < y ? x+y : y;};
Git is great. It still has shortcomings, and certainly isn't really intelligent about source code. (Here come the flames, I'll duck and don my hi-temp suit)
And my point implicitly stated is that white space is irrelevant except as a demarcation. I stated this explicitly elsewhere in this thread. What makes code pretty to view is unnecessary to the codebase. Therefore, much like test specific code, such "view formatting code" shouldn't be in your codebase either. IDEs should just display the code the way you have it set up, the final compiled code doesn't care if you used 1, 2, or 3 spaces or tabs, so why have extras? JS minification is a practical case in point regarding whitespace.
But the population of folks working with the codebase back then, and the processes around it were such that there weren't really holy wars of people converting code style formats wholesale back and forth across large teams. At least not in my experience. It really came to a head in the 90s when higher level languages became accessible to enough novice "programmers" with no training entered the professional workforce with all their odd and esoteric manner of formatting code. Some were better, many were not. (I still recall the 3 space indent guy, what an annoying jerk:)
Actually, they can. I use at least 3 different IDEs, they all can conform. If I choose to use an archaic IDE that cannot be made to conform, well...
To make it work you really need a standalone tool that you can integrate with source control.
To have a version control extension that validates and modifies code is cause for concern. Let's just say at the version control point is not where you want to muck with code. There's a whole lot more validation than mere code formatting I like done, and the build and test systems is where all of that should and does occur.
You have a version control workflow that accepts changes into the various release branches, correct? We are living in the 21st century after all.
And unless you force everyone to use the same IDE, you still need the spaces-only LCD approach to indentation.
I'll be succinct: Spaces suck.
And if you think you can force everyone to use the same IDE, then I see you're a novice programmer.
Your trolling remarks are merely a sign of your inexperience. See above, I only require that IDE's are capable of properly formatting code. If you're still stuck using something from the notepad era, well, a world of wonder awaits you.
No, the consensus was that there wasn't a single best coding format that everyone could agree upon. Otherwise we would never have had the initial spaces vs tabs discussion, much less any of the other coding format holy wars.
And that's precisely the point of tabs in the first place!
1 tab == 1 indentation!
instead of futzing around and worrying about how many spaces to use.
Just wait for it....wait for it....
The next level of understanding is just around the corner.
Intelligent devs use IDEs that handle all this formatting nonsense for them, removing the entire argument in the first place and just get things done
I see you're a novice programmer.
Quite the contrary:
So... the right answer is spaces.
Actually, it is the LCD answer to viewing code, equivalent to everyone coding in Comic Sans typeface because it's on everyone's system. (yes, purposefully said to indicate the square peg / round hole problem)
Now for a more appropriate answer:
However, I've since moved on to another approach to code formatting: I do not format code. I write a configuration file for a code formatter (I'm really liking clang-format lately), and I check it in with the code, and I add a commit hook that runs all code through the formatter, with the specified config, and rejects the commit if the output of the code does not match the input.
Use whatever tool you want to edit, but you have to run the formatter before you can commit. If you're an intelligent developer, then, what you'll do is bind the formatter to a hotkey in your editor/IDE and never worry about formatting at all. I almost never hit the return key while typing code, and don't bother much with spaces or at all with tabs. I type stream-of-consciousness, format-free code, then hit the formatter hotkey.
Thanks for agreeing with "Intelligent devs use IDEs that handle all this formatting nonsense for them" because my IDEs incorporate exactly this solution and it is done automatically without even thinking about it. Some of us have been doing that for more than a decade, hence the statement that this is so reminiscent of the 90s.
vim definitely has formatting capabilities but I generally don't use them much. My vim usage is very specific to certain functions that just work better in vim than any purpose built IDE I've ever come across, and also for a consistent editor experience across all platforms I deal with. Emacs never grew on me, but I started with vim first, which is probably why.
You've missed my point. IDEs should handle formatting into whatever you wish to see, and the storage format should store code, for which all white space after the initial demarcation is redundant. I personally despise spaces, as I generally have no use for them at all past 1. Tabs are better IMNSHO because they eliminate extra spaces, but they're still not awesome. Either way, my IDE works with spaces and tabs and deals with the formatting as necessary, so a proper project config file removes any formatting issues as far as coding standards of the day go.
BTW, as far as I'm concerned, any language that is whitespace dependent isn't really a candidate for a usable language. We'll throw that out there as well.
The whole spaces vs tabs argument is so 90s, and seems more like arguing whether cow or bull leather whips are better.
Intelligent devs use IDEs that handle all this formatting nonsense for them, removing the entire argument in the first place and just get things done. If your preferred language doesn't have a modern IDE that handles this for you, perhaps that tells you all you need to know about your preferred language.
Your bitterness is misplaced in this case. The proper response is "Of course we can handle 'yourdomain.com'. You filled out this form and had the company (me) add the domain to our list of supported names (and added the appropriate SMTP clauses to our DNS servers) so we register correctly with the blacklisting services?" as a start. Putting the situation into a "we have these processes and abilities to support you, let's confirm you followed the steps" scenario without being defensive from the start, if done correctly, will put you on a road to being seen as hero instead of the BOFH. And you still get to snicker to yourself, because your status with those present will increase because you were helpful and used an external 3rd party, the blacklisting services which is something most will understand as a negative just from the name, as the target of why this had to happen to bear the negativity of your position.
Knowing your job is one thing, being able to properly communicate to non-technical people in terms they understand is a job requirement for those that wish to not be the admin that's ignored because they're never seen or worse, worked around because they're perceived as being too painful to work with.
What users need is software freedom (the freedom to run, edit, and share the complete corresponding source code to the software) so they can alter the software as they wish, point the device to whatever site they want for updates, and genuinely own their computers.
You already can. Just buy the appropriate hardware for whatever software you have rights to and want to install on it. Enjoy.
Just for giggles, try comparing those prints to your current hand/foot prints. The entire reason they used footprints was that handprints were relatively useless for ID, but parents liked having the representation. Both are useless for ID purposes later on.
The question was regarding their dominance, success and profitability. Those are directly the result of the PAST leadership, not the current one, which has largely been coasting and making minor changes to wring yet more revenue out of the existing products.
And bundling of said office suite software for effectively free, resulting in an installed office suite that they then broke backwards compatibility with once the adoption rate was high enough, forcing a massive upgrade cycle. They succeeded.
And I am continually amazed with statements such as "Microsoft stupidity". If MS is as stupid and as bad as the OS and App evangelicals claim how do you explain their dominance, success, and profitability? If their product line has been so obviously bad how did they achieve their success?
You only need to look at some of the anti-monopolistic practices MS has been convicted of to answer your questions. For a couple of others, like Netscape, yeah, they pretty much screwed themselves.
Slashdot Mirror
The scariest thing about this statement is that people have phones set to auto-connect to strange wifi connections with no interaction necessary, and the implication that they don't know how to disconnect themselves from wifi networks. After consideration, the second part isn't hard to believe, but it's been so long since I had a phone with a default configuration from a provider that I don't recall whether the first is the standard configuration. If it is, it shouldn't be, as you can't trust a random wifi connection at all.
It's to ensure the old adage, badly paraphrased as "Progress is made by the old dying off and being replaced by the new" remains true.
Otherwise we would never have had the initial spaces vs tabs discussion
I still don't know why that discussion ever started in the first place. We use the TAB key to indent, why should that ever insert SPACES?! That's what the SPACE bar is for; TAB should insert tabs. End of story, amirite?
It's because way way way back, "editors" weren't able to vary the tab into anything other than 8 space representations. Thus, a group of people stuck on 80 column monitors would indent twice and holy crap, 16 characters per line were gone. Add that to that idiotic Hungarian notation that added up to 10 prefix characters to your variables, and wow, you would take over 305 lines to write
shucks... ;)
Git is great. It still has shortcomings, and certainly isn't really intelligent about source code. (Here come the flames, I'll duck and don my hi-temp suit)
And my point implicitly stated is that white space is irrelevant except as a demarcation. I stated this explicitly elsewhere in this thread. What makes code pretty to view is unnecessary to the codebase. Therefore, much like test specific code, such "view formatting code" shouldn't be in your codebase either. IDEs should just display the code the way you have it set up, the final compiled code doesn't care if you used 1, 2, or 3 spaces or tabs, so why have extras? JS minification is a practical case in point regarding whitespace.
But the population of folks working with the codebase back then, and the processes around it were such that there weren't really holy wars of people converting code style formats wholesale back and forth across large teams. At least not in my experience. It really came to a head in the 90s when higher level languages became accessible to enough novice "programmers" with no training entered the professional workforce with all their odd and esoteric manner of formatting code. Some were better, many were not. (I still recall the 3 space indent guy, what an annoying jerk:)
Your IDE alone cannot incorporate that solution,
Actually, they can. I use at least 3 different IDEs, they all can conform. If I choose to use an archaic IDE that cannot be made to conform, well...
To make it work you really need a standalone tool that you can integrate with source control.
To have a version control extension that validates and modifies code is cause for concern. Let's just say at the version control point is not where you want to muck with code. There's a whole lot more validation than mere code formatting I like done, and the build and test systems is where all of that should and does occur.
You have a version control workflow that accepts changes into the various release branches, correct? We are living in the 21st century after all.
And unless you force everyone to use the same IDE, you still need the spaces-only LCD approach to indentation.
I'll be succinct: Spaces suck.
And if you think you can force everyone to use the same IDE, then I see you're a novice programmer.
Your trolling remarks are merely a sign of your inexperience. See above, I only require that IDE's are capable of properly formatting code. If you're still stuck using something from the notepad era, well, a world of wonder awaits you.
vim has code formatting capabilities far beyond merely subbing spaces for tabs. I'm sure Sublime Text does as well.
The popular opinion on each project wins.
No, the consensus was that there wasn't a single best coding format that everyone could agree upon. Otherwise we would never have had the initial spaces vs tabs discussion, much less any of the other coding format holy wars.
And that's precisely the point of tabs in the first place! 1 tab == 1 indentation! instead of futzing around and worrying about how many spaces to use.
Just wait for it....wait for it....
The next level of understanding is just around the corner.
Intelligent devs use IDEs that handle all this formatting nonsense for them, removing the entire argument in the first place and just get things done
I see you're a novice programmer.
Quite the contrary:
So... the right answer is spaces.
Actually, it is the LCD answer to viewing code, equivalent to everyone coding in Comic Sans typeface because it's on everyone's system. (yes, purposefully said to indicate the square peg / round hole problem)
Now for a more appropriate answer:
However, I've since moved on to another approach to code formatting: I do not format code. I write a configuration file for a code formatter (I'm really liking clang-format lately), and I check it in with the code, and I add a commit hook that runs all code through the formatter, with the specified config, and rejects the commit if the output of the code does not match the input.
Use whatever tool you want to edit, but you have to run the formatter before you can commit. If you're an intelligent developer, then, what you'll do is bind the formatter to a hotkey in your editor/IDE and never worry about formatting at all. I almost never hit the return key while typing code, and don't bother much with spaces or at all with tabs. I type stream-of-consciousness, format-free code, then hit the formatter hotkey.
Thanks for agreeing with "Intelligent devs use IDEs that handle all this formatting nonsense for them" because my IDEs incorporate exactly this solution and it is done automatically without even thinking about it. Some of us have been doing that for more than a decade, hence the statement that this is so reminiscent of the 90s.
Intelligent devs shouldn't need an IDE to help them format their code properly.
But it certainly makes them more productive by removing a bunch of manual steps.
vim definitely has formatting capabilities but I generally don't use them much. My vim usage is very specific to certain functions that just work better in vim than any purpose built IDE I've ever come across, and also for a consistent editor experience across all platforms I deal with. Emacs never grew on me, but I started with vim first, which is probably why.
I'd mod you funny if I could. Awesome.
You've missed my point. IDEs should handle formatting into whatever you wish to see, and the storage format should store code, for which all white space after the initial demarcation is redundant. I personally despise spaces, as I generally have no use for them at all past 1. Tabs are better IMNSHO because they eliminate extra spaces, but they're still not awesome. Either way, my IDE works with spaces and tabs and deals with the formatting as necessary, so a proper project config file removes any formatting issues as far as coding standards of the day go.
BTW, as far as I'm concerned, any language that is whitespace dependent isn't really a candidate for a usable language. We'll throw that out there as well.
The whole spaces vs tabs argument is so 90s, and seems more like arguing whether cow or bull leather whips are better.
Intelligent devs use IDEs that handle all this formatting nonsense for them, removing the entire argument in the first place and just get things done. If your preferred language doesn't have a modern IDE that handles this for you, perhaps that tells you all you need to know about your preferred language.
Giving the history with Apple refusing the decrypt data I would go with them, NSA probably wanted to tap into the iMessaging service.
iMessage was compromised back in 2012/2013 when Apple was forced to change the PTP nature of Facetime protocol with a centralized service.
Your bitterness is misplaced in this case. The proper response is "Of course we can handle 'yourdomain.com'. You filled out this form and had the company (me) add the domain to our list of supported names (and added the appropriate SMTP clauses to our DNS servers) so we register correctly with the blacklisting services?" as a start. Putting the situation into a "we have these processes and abilities to support you, let's confirm you followed the steps" scenario without being defensive from the start, if done correctly, will put you on a road to being seen as hero instead of the BOFH. And you still get to snicker to yourself, because your status with those present will increase because you were helpful and used an external 3rd party, the blacklisting services which is something most will understand as a negative just from the name, as the target of why this had to happen to bear the negativity of your position.
Knowing your job is one thing, being able to properly communicate to non-technical people in terms they understand is a job requirement for those that wish to not be the admin that's ignored because they're never seen or worse, worked around because they're perceived as being too painful to work with.
What users need is software freedom (the freedom to run, edit, and share the complete corresponding source code to the software) so they can alter the software as they wish, point the device to whatever site they want for updates, and genuinely own their computers.
You already can. Just buy the appropriate hardware for whatever software you have rights to and want to install on it. Enjoy.
Just for giggles, try comparing those prints to your current hand/foot prints. The entire reason they used footprints was that handprints were relatively useless for ID, but parents liked having the representation. Both are useless for ID purposes later on.
Once we get the hard AIs developed, we'll train them to be ruthless government agents
Version 2.0 will be named "Smith"
The question was regarding their dominance, success and profitability. Those are directly the result of the PAST leadership, not the current one, which has largely been coasting and making minor changes to wring yet more revenue out of the existing products.
Are any other companies monopolies and taking out the existing dominant players?
And bundling of said office suite software for effectively free, resulting in an installed office suite that they then broke backwards compatibility with once the adoption rate was high enough, forcing a massive upgrade cycle. They succeeded.
And I am continually amazed with statements such as "Microsoft stupidity". If MS is as stupid and as bad as the OS and App evangelicals claim how do you explain their dominance, success, and profitability? If their product line has been so obviously bad how did they achieve their success?
You only need to look at some of the anti-monopolistic practices MS has been convicted of to answer your questions. For a couple of others, like Netscape, yeah, they pretty much screwed themselves.