"When this innocent person is convicted because all (or most / the most influential) the evidence points to him, does this still mean that it is "proven" that he did it?"
Yes. No, it doesn't make much sense, but we're talking about LAW here, so let's not expect it to.
"In the same instance, what happens when a criminal gets caught red handed doing something, but because of a foulup in following procedures the criminal actually gets off. Does this mean that the criminal has been "proven" to not have committed the crime?"
Ah, and this betrays your ignorance of the law. No judgement of guilt or innocence is indicated in such cases. They are simply (for all intents and purposes) set aside.
As for the rest of your post, you attempt to argue about semantics, to say essentially, that even in cases of incontrovertible proof, there exists some doubt, so nothing is ever proven in court.
That's what get's modded "insightful" around here.
Right. And The UN will never need any concessions from China.
You're new to this politics thing aren't you?
What you fail to understand (or acknowledge) is that the political nature of the UN virtually GUARANTEES that input into the process of controlling internet content (which is tremendously valuable) will be traded.
I don't see why being democratic is a good thing in this case.
"The UN isn't looking to regulate content, nor would it have any way possible of doing so."
Well, first let's admit, there is no such thing as a "UN" only a group of self interested nation states competing most of the time, and occasionally cooperating when it serves them. Under one banner yes, but that's it.
Now, the point you missed is that the UN may or may not try to regulate content ( I beleive they would) but I GUARANTEE those states listed (China, Saudi Arabia, etc.) would try, because they DO IT NOW.
And since the UN is a political body, is it such a stretch to believe those states would use their influence to censor the internet? Why give them the chance?
With all due respect, you still failed to justify why something that is largely the creation of the US shouldn't be largely the responsibility of the US.
Because you don't like it? Not good enough.
And there are alternatives if you choose to use them.
The fact that the rest of the world glommed on isn't relevant at all. They can hit the road if things turn in a direction they disagree with, which is most likely the direction things will take anyway.
"You shouldn't think with your gut"
That's all your post is, an overreaction supported only by your opinion.
Well, on his side he has YEARS of failed aid policies related to Africa, and a credible economist. The points made in the interview make sense, which doesn't mean they will work, but they seem reasonable.
On your side you have... you. Saying "I'm right" yet offering nothing of substance.
Some evidence would be nice.
I don't care what you buy. I SEE it. When I tell a kids parents that he is failing, and will need tutoring, and instead they let him fail, despite having the resources provided, they are passing the buck. Whether you buy it, who cares.
I had 35 kids in my class last year, and got my calls returned consistently by 5. Let me repeat FIVE. Those were just phone calls, and no they weren't regarding failing or generally anything important. But you "don't buy" it.
And that is my point. I have experience that is dismissed by YOU, because you disagree. Do YOU have experince (in a classroom as a teacher)? Then fuck you and what you buy.
"For the kids under pressure, I'm sure that you see many students not do as well as you have seen in classwork for a particular test, but it is usually not extremely far off from what they do normally."
Wrong. I have seen amazing students lock up under test anxiety. Making a test that important is stupid, and doesn't serve it's intended goals. Of course, not knowing what you are talking about hasn't stopped you so far.
Vocational options are training for mechanics, plumbing, auto body, computers, and jobs that require training and not the typical general education. Far too few options for this.
Genuine consequences are jail time, fines, and expulsion.
Merit is the willingness and ability to complete further training, take on greater responsibilities, and assist in the development of other educators.
After reading your points I realized that you are exactly the person I am talking about. Someone who is interested in espousing their opinion, yet having NO real experience or knowledge of the subject.
Save what you "buy" for someone who cares what you "think".
"The problem is you are on your high horse and won't take any idea from someone who hasn't gone through the laughable crap that people have to go through to get a teaching credential."
No, in fact in another post I was, asked my opinion, and sated clearly that I am not qualified to make thses changes either. So please apologize for lying about me.
"I hope you see your extreme flaw in logic about someone observing many teachers over the years only learing "about how to be a STUDENT""
There is none, which speaks to your lack of understanding of logic. You learn how to do by DOING. The fact that you believe otherwise is exactly the kind crap I was talking about. Or do you think it's a coincidence that so many professionals are REQUIRED to conduct an internship?
"And I think I know pretty well how I would do on my first day in a classroom, having experience lecturing in college on several occasions, and teaching in a Sunday school"
Ha. Sunday school. Do you honenstly think that is indicative of a real school? A classroom full of jesus-freaks that have thier parents lurking nearby is supposed to be comparable to a public school classroom? You can't possibly be that stupid.
Expertise is gained by DOING. You have never DONE, despite your pathetic attempt to act as though sunday school qualifies. Next Sunday, speak to your god about pride. Then come back and apologize to me.
Chinese culture is VASTLY different from US culture. They CANNOT be compared, so stop trying. If you don't understand that (it appears you don't) then YOU are exactly the person I was discussing.
Second, I spend an hour a day in each class. Go ahead and try to tell me I have more influence in your kids day than you do. You'll sound even more ridiculous.
Now, you tell me, how do I FORCE a kid to learn when they CHOOSE not to, and their parents support them in that choice? Well smart guy?
I hate armchair experts like you, who are all about assembling "evidence" to support your point.
I'd say arguing by analogy is how stupid people try to sound intelligent. Yes I mean you.
More importantly, just knowing it doesn't work is not sufficient understanding to discuss WHY it's broken. You might see that it isn't right, but the WHY is beyond you. So your idiotic analogy fails.
First, thank you for not spitting out the same ridiculous screed about formerly being a student and therefore being qualified to critique the system.
Second, I am a relatively new teacher, having only 5 years in the classroom. So take this for what it's worth (and no, I would not include myself if I was assembling a group of people for this task).
1. Parents are passing the buck. I spend an hour a day with your kids. 5 classes, one hour each. The time parents spend with their kids is FAR more valuable, yet where is the outrage about changing the "parental system".
2. NO MORE STANDARDIZED TESTS. Kids are not well suited for the pressure, nor do they succeed or fail based on their skill at taking these tests. Yet we are asking them to do just that.
3. Vocational options.
4. Genuine consequences for continuous failure by the students. Make the consequences SERIOUS, and make them stick. And make some for the parents too. The way you learn is by doing, and failing repeatedly just teaches you how to do it.
5. Merit pay. Unions hate it, I don't I'm good at what I do, so pay me more.
"And I have been an active participant in our education system as a student and a parent of students,"
So? Does that mean you could teach? Of course not, so stop being an arrogant know it all blowhard. You don't know how to teach, regardless of how often you've been in school. But you are too self absorbed to admit that experience as a student is different than experience as a teaching professional.
And yet, you are the third moron I have had to refute regarding this, and I imagine there will be more morons after you.
"we've all been on the receiving end of education so we're all qualified to at least have opinions"
Only about how to be a STUDENT. You do understand the difference I hope.
I hear this ridiculous point frequently, but I ask you, what would you do on your FIRST DAY in a classroom? You have no idea, nor does anyone who has been a student.
Participating is not the same, stop trying to act as though it is.
Stop lying and saying patently STUPID things, and you won't have to have your stupidity pointed out.
Moreover, I refuted your attempts at points, while you failed to address ONE of mine. Does that mean you concede that I am correct, or are you just embarrassed that you fucked up?
I don't tell electricians how to do their jobs, because I'm not an electrician. Yet morons like you think because you took a psych class as an elective that you have valuable insight.
'Hmmm... I think that "educators" who argue by using profanity and name-calling speak for themselves"
This displays your anti-educator bias. What on earth makes you think teachers don't swear or get frustrated? Are you honestly expecting us to turn off our emotions, especially in the face of vast ignorance such as yours? What an idiotic attempt at a slam, and a pathetic ad hominem as well.
By the way, my friends routinely display amazement at the dichotomy between my classroom behavior and that which is outside the class. I have never lost my cool, sworn, or belittled a child, despite working in a residential treatment center that housed the most difficult children in the system.
"The basic thrust of your arguments is that outsiders are not qualified to criticize, and that's ridiculous."
No it wasn't, it was that UNQUALIFIED outsiders are ROUTINELY treated as though their opinions are valid. Nice try at the straw man though, perhaps if you'd had me as a teacher you'd understand what that meant.
I believe that I have just "schooled" you, so apparently I have some idea of how to educate.
No, it's not. I'm a CERTIFIED BEHAVIOR ANALYST. You cited a reference that DOES NOT discuss what I am discussing.
I WAS NOT TALKING ABOUT CORPORAL PUNISHMENT EXCLUSIVELY, whereas YOU did.
Stop acting like google is an appropriate substitute for education and experience.
There is NO consensus, and you cite an ESSAY, based on the authors bias. You are clearly too stupid to understand the difference between research (which supports me by the way) and an opinion piece.
"Dumbass. Now shut up and let the smart people talk, you idiot. Tell me where you live and I'll come shut you up, you ignorant shit-for-brains."
Orlando, Fl. Email me and I'll gladly meet you wherever you want you cowardly, ignorant ass.
First, teachers have fewer and fewer tools to do their jobs.
How should I go about making a child learn? What if their parent isn't helpful, and in fact, as most do, blames the teacher?
How do I MAKE a child learn, who simply DOES NOT want to be in school. Expelling them is useless, there is no way to force them, and if parents don't help, then the teacher is the bad guy.
Why is it MY fault YOU aren't doing what YOU are supposed to? I'M NOT YOUR MOMMA.
You are exactly the kind of idiot I was speaking of. You claim it's the teacher, but what EVIDENCE do you have? None.
"I guess that all those lawyers who keep suing surgeons for killing patients should take a lesson from you and just shut up. After all, they're not surgeons! What do they know?"
And this proves your ignorance. ATTORNEYS don't critique the doctors, they get EXPERT DOCTORS to do it. Thank you for proving my point for me.
Stop attempting to argue by analogy, it is the tool of imbeciles.
With all due respect to your idiotic attempt at sarcasm, it's called PUNISHMENT. There is no violence involved if done correctly.
You stupid adherence to the idea that punishment is the same as violence simply displays your ignorance.
And by the way, it is well known that punishment is more effective than reinforcement. Of course, you never bothered to learn about that, and would probably attempt to deny it if you had.
Slashdot Mirror
Being left handed, I can say that there are 2 major problems for me.
I smear the writing with my hand, and I can't write comfortably from margin to margin.
"I guess those 120 days on the job does give him the right to slash the pensions on engineers who have been their for 20+ years."
And I guess you have the right to comment on the management of an giant international corporation.
You just sound naive when you boil complex policies down to a few sentences on a web board.
I've heard others make the say the same thing about the CFC, and frankly I don't get your point.
So they're funded by corporations. They have every right to bring abuses by PETA to light, particularly if others don't.
Yes they may be biased, but so is PETA.
I really don't see your point at all.
"When this innocent person is convicted because all (or most / the most influential) the evidence points to him, does this still mean that it is "proven" that he did it?"
Yes. No, it doesn't make much sense, but we're talking about LAW here, so let's not expect it to.
"In the same instance, what happens when a criminal gets caught red handed doing something, but because of a foulup in following procedures the criminal actually gets off. Does this mean that the criminal has been "proven" to not have committed the crime?"
Ah, and this betrays your ignorance of the law. No judgement of guilt or innocence is indicated in such cases. They are simply (for all intents and purposes) set aside.
As for the rest of your post, you attempt to argue about semantics, to say essentially, that even in cases of incontrovertible proof, there exists some doubt, so nothing is ever proven in court.
That's what get's modded "insightful" around here.
Until they decide they want more.
Right. And The UN will never need any concessions from China.
You're new to this politics thing aren't you?
What you fail to understand (or acknowledge) is that the political nature of the UN virtually GUARANTEES that input into the process of controlling internet content (which is tremendously valuable) will be traded.
I don't see why being democratic is a good thing in this case.
"The UN isn't looking to regulate content, nor would it have any way possible of doing so."
Well, first let's admit, there is no such thing as a "UN" only a group of self interested nation states competing most of the time, and occasionally cooperating when it serves them. Under one banner yes, but that's it.
Now, the point you missed is that the UN may or may not try to regulate content ( I beleive they would) but I GUARANTEE those states listed (China, Saudi Arabia, etc.) would try, because they DO IT NOW.
And since the UN is a political body, is it such a stretch to believe those states would use their influence to censor the internet? Why give them the chance?
With all due respect, you still failed to justify why something that is largely the creation of the US shouldn't be largely the responsibility of the US.
Because you don't like it? Not good enough.
And there are alternatives if you choose to use them.
The fact that the rest of the world glommed on isn't relevant at all. They can hit the road if things turn in a direction they disagree with, which is most likely the direction things will take anyway.
"You shouldn't think with your gut"
That's all your post is, an overreaction supported only by your opinion.
Well, on his side he has YEARS of failed aid policies related to Africa, and a credible economist. The points made in the interview make sense, which doesn't mean they will work, but they seem reasonable. On your side you have... you. Saying "I'm right" yet offering nothing of substance. Some evidence would be nice.
I don't care what you buy. I SEE it. When I tell a kids parents that he is failing, and will need tutoring, and instead they let him fail, despite having the resources provided, they are passing the buck. Whether you buy it, who cares.
I had 35 kids in my class last year, and got my calls returned consistently by 5. Let me repeat FIVE. Those were just phone calls, and no they weren't regarding failing or generally anything important. But you "don't buy" it.
And that is my point. I have experience that is dismissed by YOU, because you disagree. Do YOU have experince (in a classroom as a teacher)? Then fuck you and what you buy.
"For the kids under pressure, I'm sure that you see many students not do as well as you have seen in classwork for a particular test, but it is usually not extremely far off from what they do normally."
Wrong. I have seen amazing students lock up under test anxiety. Making a test that important is stupid, and doesn't serve it's intended goals. Of course, not knowing what you are talking about hasn't stopped you so far.
Vocational options are training for mechanics, plumbing, auto body, computers, and jobs that require training and not the typical general education. Far too few options for this.
Genuine consequences are jail time, fines, and expulsion.
Merit is the willingness and ability to complete further training, take on greater responsibilities, and assist in the development of other educators.
After reading your points I realized that you are exactly the person I am talking about. Someone who is interested in espousing their opinion, yet having NO real experience or knowledge of the subject.
Save what you "buy" for someone who cares what you "think".
"The problem is you are on your high horse and won't take any idea from someone who hasn't gone through the laughable crap that people have to go through to get a teaching credential."
No, in fact in another post I was, asked my opinion, and sated clearly that I am not qualified to make thses changes either. So please apologize for lying about me.
"I hope you see your extreme flaw in logic about someone observing many teachers over the years only learing "about how to be a STUDENT""
There is none, which speaks to your lack of understanding of logic. You learn how to do by DOING. The fact that you believe otherwise is exactly the kind crap I was talking about. Or do you think it's a coincidence that so many professionals are REQUIRED to conduct an internship?
"And I think I know pretty well how I would do on my first day in a classroom, having experience lecturing in college on several occasions, and teaching in a Sunday school"
Ha. Sunday school. Do you honenstly think that is indicative of a real school? A classroom full of jesus-freaks that have thier parents lurking nearby is supposed to be comparable to a public school classroom? You can't possibly be that stupid.
Expertise is gained by DOING. You have never DONE, despite your pathetic attempt to act as though sunday school qualifies. Next Sunday, speak to your god about pride. Then come back and apologize to me.
No offense, but bullshit.
Chinese culture is VASTLY different from US culture. They CANNOT be compared, so stop trying. If you don't understand that (it appears you don't) then YOU are exactly the person I was discussing.
Second, I spend an hour a day in each class. Go ahead and try to tell me I have more influence in your kids day than you do. You'll sound even more ridiculous.
Now, you tell me, how do I FORCE a kid to learn when they CHOOSE not to, and their parents support them in that choice? Well smart guy?
I hate armchair experts like you, who are all about assembling "evidence" to support your point.
I'd say arguing by analogy is how stupid people try to sound intelligent. Yes I mean you.
More importantly, just knowing it doesn't work is not sufficient understanding to discuss WHY it's broken. You might see that it isn't right, but the WHY is beyond you. So your idiotic analogy fails.
Care to try again?
First, thank you for not spitting out the same ridiculous screed about formerly being a student and therefore being qualified to critique the system.
Second, I am a relatively new teacher, having only 5 years in the classroom. So take this for what it's worth (and no, I would not include myself if I was assembling a group of people for this task).
1. Parents are passing the buck. I spend an hour a day with your kids. 5 classes, one hour each. The time parents spend with their kids is FAR more valuable, yet where is the outrage about changing the "parental system".
2. NO MORE STANDARDIZED TESTS. Kids are not well suited for the pressure, nor do they succeed or fail based on their skill at taking these tests. Yet we are asking them to do just that.
3. Vocational options.
4. Genuine consequences for continuous failure by the students. Make the consequences SERIOUS, and make them stick. And make some for the parents too. The way you learn is by doing, and failing repeatedly just teaches you how to do it.
5. Merit pay. Unions hate it, I don't I'm good at what I do, so pay me more.
Those are just a few.
"And I have been an active participant in our education system as a student and a parent of students,"
So? Does that mean you could teach? Of course not, so stop being an arrogant know it all blowhard. You don't know how to teach, regardless of how often you've been in school. But you are too self absorbed to admit that experience as a student is different than experience as a teaching professional.
And yet, you are the third moron I have had to refute regarding this, and I imagine there will be more morons after you.
"we've all been on the receiving end of education so we're all qualified to at least have opinions"
Only about how to be a STUDENT. You do understand the difference I hope.
I hear this ridiculous point frequently, but I ask you, what would you do on your FIRST DAY in a classroom? You have no idea, nor does anyone who has been a student.
Participating is not the same, stop trying to act as though it is.
Doing it as a participant is not the same. Attempting to make that case is EXACTLY the arrogance I discussed.
The worst part is that you don't see it.
"And stop calling people you don't know stupid. "
Stop lying and saying patently STUPID things, and you won't have to have your stupidity pointed out.
Moreover, I refuted your attempts at points, while you failed to address ONE of mine. Does that mean you concede that I am correct, or are you just embarrassed that you fucked up?
I don't tell electricians how to do their jobs, because I'm not an electrician. Yet morons like you think because you took a psych class as an elective that you have valuable insight.
'Hmmm... I think that "educators" who argue by using profanity and name-calling speak for themselves"
This displays your anti-educator bias. What on earth makes you think teachers don't swear or get frustrated? Are you honestly expecting us to turn off our emotions, especially in the face of vast ignorance such as yours? What an idiotic attempt at a slam, and a pathetic ad hominem as well.
By the way, my friends routinely display amazement at the dichotomy between my classroom behavior and that which is outside the class. I have never lost my cool, sworn, or belittled a child, despite working in a residential treatment center that housed the most difficult children in the system.
"The basic thrust of your arguments is that outsiders are not qualified to criticize, and that's ridiculous."
No it wasn't, it was that UNQUALIFIED outsiders are ROUTINELY treated as though their opinions are valid. Nice try at the straw man though, perhaps if you'd had me as a teacher you'd understand what that meant.
I believe that I have just "schooled" you, so apparently I have some idea of how to educate.
No, it's not. I'm a CERTIFIED BEHAVIOR ANALYST. You cited a reference that DOES NOT discuss what I am discussing.
I WAS NOT TALKING ABOUT CORPORAL PUNISHMENT EXCLUSIVELY, whereas YOU did.
Stop acting like google is an appropriate substitute for education and experience.
There is NO consensus, and you cite an ESSAY, based on the authors bias. You are clearly too stupid to understand the difference between research (which supports me by the way) and an opinion piece.
"Dumbass. Now shut up and let the smart people talk, you idiot. Tell me where you live and I'll come shut you up, you ignorant shit-for-brains."
Orlando, Fl. Email me and I'll gladly meet you wherever you want you cowardly, ignorant ass.
First, teachers have fewer and fewer tools to do their jobs.
How should I go about making a child learn? What if their parent isn't helpful, and in fact, as most do, blames the teacher?
How do I MAKE a child learn, who simply DOES NOT want to be in school. Expelling them is useless, there is no way to force them, and if parents don't help, then the teacher is the bad guy.
Why is it MY fault YOU aren't doing what YOU are supposed to? I'M NOT YOUR MOMMA.
No, but since when do mission staements describe everything a company stands for?
They don't. So, do you have any more incorrect, moronic observations, or will you just admit you are stupid?
I agree totally. However, we're not talking about constructive criticism, from concerned well meaning individuals.
We're talking about school boards and parents, interested only in shifting blame and denying responsibility.
The FIRST thing I ask a parent whose child is failing is how much time the parent spends with their child doing school related activities.
Solve THAT problem, and you'll get results.
You are exactly the kind of idiot I was speaking of. You claim it's the teacher, but what EVIDENCE do you have? None. "I guess that all those lawyers who keep suing surgeons for killing patients should take a lesson from you and just shut up. After all, they're not surgeons! What do they know?" And this proves your ignorance. ATTORNEYS don't critique the doctors, they get EXPERT DOCTORS to do it. Thank you for proving my point for me. Stop attempting to argue by analogy, it is the tool of imbeciles.
With all due respect to your idiotic attempt at sarcasm, it's called PUNISHMENT. There is no violence involved if done correctly.
You stupid adherence to the idea that punishment is the same as violence simply displays your ignorance.
And by the way, it is well known that punishment is more effective than reinforcement. Of course, you never bothered to learn about that, and would probably attempt to deny it if you had.