maybe a few crashes are to be expected
Well, few crashes after few working minutes/hours may be fine but No boots at all is not a sign of FRIGGNING BETA. It sounds more like a half hearted development and testing effort. No and I didn't mean to say Win2k did not crash in it's beta - The testing effort that Microsoft put in Win2K was notably higher than what you are seeing with X64 edition. And come on - for an OS which has run on 32bits most of the time, it needs more beta testing by Microsoft and may be end users via a more visible beta program and feedback mechanism.
I tried installing it on my R3240 Compaq laptop which has a Athlon64 processor - Installed fine on a external Maxtor USB drive, but when I boot it I get immediate BSOD.
Now the fact that it allowed me to install on a USB external drive is still impressive given the fact that FC3 does not even offer me to install it on USB drive.
But I don't think Microsoft is investing as much testing / development efforts in it compared to what it did during the release of Windows 2000 - which was the first stable kernel from Redmond.
The laptop is a Compaq Presario R3240US - I downloaded the Solaris Express 11/04, x86 build. It boots, takes 10-15 painful minutes for "Configuring Devices" and stays there for ever - no progress whatsoever. It does not detect the keyboard so I have no choice to specify the type of installation. I did not try to get the 64bit kernel to boot - all defaults were accepted.
With all the strides they made with Solaris 10 - it still does not even _boot_ on my laptop _and_ desktop - both amd64. I am trying the x86 version. It _still_ is a joke Linus, you are certainly right. If it can't even boot on decent x86 hardware (forget completely about the device driver support - I am talking about getting to the console login) there is something truly missing.
... Microsoft prepares WAV files for Windows Media Player tour in-house? Why would you not think they contracted that to some other organization which used pirated Sound Forge to do the Job and MS was ignorant enough not to check the Wav files' content? (How many users would have actually played those files?)
Very well put. "Slavery" was the right word since it is very comparable to a slave being dependent on his master for the money and the work both.
But if we take your question and apply it to the US - if all software development and manufacturing operations were pulled out of the US right away will not its impact be similar to what would have happened in India? Aren't the people who have jobs in US also part of this slavery? Do you think developed country and undevloped country matters here? In this case the company is the master - it doesnt matter if it's Indian or American. The company will pull out if it doesn't see any value add or benefit and it will have the same effects as far as I can think.
I totally agree with your thought on psychoeconomical effect.
Don't get me wrong - I am just trying to sight the differences and make a guess as to where this thing is heading to - plainly out of curiosity.
Very true, makes a lot of sense. Although what did u actually mean by those underdeveloped economies will never be properly structured ? Just curious.
This whole outsourcing thing is a big puzzle - it looks all the more confusing when you consider the social, economical and developmental aspects of it from the perspective of both countries. Does anyone have a genuine unbiased future view to share?
To begin with I think the underdeveloped nations reaping the benefits of outsourcing will continue to better their infrastructure and living standards at the least. If there arent many jobs (Manufacturing, Software etc) in the country which does outsourcing, people will be less and less capable of buying what those outsourcing companies sell. What hopes does an educated American have when it comes to jobs? What have been the effects of outsourced Manufacturing (to China, Taiwan) which has existed long before. How did the average American cope with it?
MS has nothing to do with this.
Think twice. It has everything to do. Slackware, Gentoo, Debian are fine. Linux in the Corporate world needs support from well established companies. So all your hobbies can still be catered to by the other distros and GPL'ed sources but corporate support for Linux is what MS is interested in killing. With Novell buying Ximian and Suse and supporting their Linux distro and desktop along with.NET engine (Mono)which could potentially run all of the Windows apps on Linux, it was becoming a little too much of threat to MS.
.... Microsoft's hand in this? (Remember the $2b?) Probably MS has confidence - that Sun will not fall short of burying itself along with Novell, Linux and Ximian. That gets rid of the competition to Windows on the Server and desktop both. Much like what happened with Crapaq buying DEC and then HP buying both to kill the Alpha and use it's bones for Itanium - Thus paving the way for Intel to succeed in 64 bit market?! It's another story that AMD hit the right chord as far as 64bit market goes, and that too without any of this politics.
I am running XP Pro SP1 + SP2 on two different machines and XP Home SP1+SP2 on other machine. No problem whatsoever. Is this yet another case spreading FUD? The cases of failure seem pretty generic - not specific to any particular hardware or software setup - and I would tend to think if it occured to them, it must occur to me and many other people. Other people with SP2 - What's your experience?
Sorry- SFU doesn't run on XP Home - They want us to buy XP Professional or may be Windoze 2003 Advanced Server for running just the SFU. Cygwin which does exact same features, doesn't really care what the OS is. Whole of M$ is flawed, and so is there $oftware.
True.. I once screwed up my brand new Sony VAIO Laptop because of silly mistake and extreme hurry. I had bought a new RAM chip and had to put it in instantly. I didn't had the Philips 4 headed screw driver and imagine what - I pulled out the plastic lid thinking all would be fine! (The VAIO had a single screw on the lid.) Needless to say it screwed the motherboard and now I am stuck with a Presario 1500:(
I bet they are going to give the tools away for a very low cost or still better - free. This is one of their many ways of killing Linux and OSS, and it's bound to be effective - More developers can afford to write software for Windows. The tools themselves are way better than anything we have on Linux - There is better documentation, better integration and productivity. While we OSS campers are busy producing multitude of Desktops, APIs, Component models and office suites, M$ is hitting hard, right where it hurts the most. This, in my book is a sad day until someone tells me OSS folks have a plan to counter.
Libraries - Static linking and dynamic linking are some things the effect of which you can nullify by comparing object files. GCC for example statically links stdc++ and MSVC does not. So comparing end executable from both for size is not really right.
I compiled the Conformance sample that came with it - Once with G++ [3.3.1] -O2 and once with cl/O2/EHsc and noticed the huge code size differences -
CL
==
text data bss dec hex filename
76892 8192 0 85084 14c5c conformance.exe
G++
==
text data bss dec hex filename
200508 1992 19088 221588 36194 a.exe
That's horrible code generation from G++. It can't be so bad.
Parry
Well let me clarify - I was generally talking about your normal run-of-the-mill software development work. Otherwise I agree that Americans have produced really laudable and genuinely innovative software and Indians have no such credit to their record. But there is nothing that can prove on a one-to-one basis that a Indian programmer is less capable or less quality minded than his american counterpart for the normal day-to-day s/w development work.
I did find it amusing in a previous/. India outsourcing thread, one poster from India praised his firm's CMM level 4 or 5 achievement and talked about how they were getting the business because of their quality efforts. It's a nice goal and it'll retain a couple of accounts, but to pretend for a moment that you're being used because of your quality is like a prostitute thinking she's appreciated for her intellectual qualities. Having worked with many american counterparts as programmer/architect/tester for the so called big names, I can confidently say that whatever you are ranting about quality is not really true. After cautious study and observation, I found that the american programmers do not offer any significant quality benefit over their Indian counterparts, have little care for the client they are working for, and are not all that inclined/able towards producing quality software - And they do all this at a hefty price.
What I have experienced is that all the big names really care little about software quality beyond a certain limit - And Indians are good enough for any upward/downward limit you impose on them. Indeed Price is the King if you are offering something that does its job reasonably well.
Slashdot Mirror
maybe a few crashes are to be expected
Well, few crashes after few working minutes/hours may be fine but No boots at all is not a sign of FRIGGNING BETA. It sounds more like a half hearted development and testing effort. No and I didn't mean to say Win2k did not crash in it's beta - The testing effort that Microsoft put in Win2K was notably higher than what you are seeing with X64 edition. And come on - for an OS which has run on 32bits most of the time, it needs more beta testing by Microsoft and may be end users via a more visible beta program and feedback mechanism.
I tried installing it on my R3240 Compaq laptop which has a Athlon64 processor - Installed fine on a external Maxtor USB drive, but when I boot it I get immediate BSOD.
Now the fact that it allowed me to install on a USB external drive is still impressive given the fact that FC3 does not even offer me to install it on USB drive.
But I don't think Microsoft is investing as much testing / development efforts in it compared to what it did during the release of Windows 2000 - which was the first stable kernel from Redmond.
The laptop is a Compaq Presario R3240US - I downloaded the Solaris Express 11/04, x86 build. It boots, takes 10-15 painful minutes for "Configuring Devices" and stays there for ever - no progress whatsoever. It does not detect the keyboard so I have no choice to specify the type of installation. I did not try to get the 64bit kernel to boot - all defaults were accepted.
With all the strides they made with Solaris 10 - it still does not even _boot_ on my laptop _and_ desktop - both amd64. I am trying the x86 version. It _still_ is a joke Linus, you are certainly right. If it can't even boot on decent x86 hardware (forget completely about the device driver support - I am talking about getting to the console login) there is something truly missing.
... Microsoft prepares WAV files for Windows Media Player tour in-house? Why would you not think they contracted that to some other organization which used pirated Sound Forge to do the Job and MS was ignorant enough not to check the Wav files' content? (How many users would have actually played those files?)
Wondering who found this out and how?
Very well put. "Slavery" was the right word since it is very comparable to a slave being dependent on his master for the money and the work both. But if we take your question and apply it to the US - if all software development and manufacturing operations were pulled out of the US right away will not its impact be similar to what would have happened in India? Aren't the people who have jobs in US also part of this slavery? Do you think developed country and undevloped country matters here? In this case the company is the master - it doesnt matter if it's Indian or American. The company will pull out if it doesn't see any value add or benefit and it will have the same effects as far as I can think. I totally agree with your thought on psychoeconomical effect. Don't get me wrong - I am just trying to sight the differences and make a guess as to where this thing is heading to - plainly out of curiosity.
Very true, makes a lot of sense. Although what did u actually mean by those underdeveloped economies will never be properly structured ?
Just curious.
This whole outsourcing thing is a big puzzle - it looks all the more confusing when you consider the social, economical and developmental aspects of it from the perspective of both countries. Does anyone have a genuine unbiased future view to share?
To begin with I think the underdeveloped nations reaping the benefits of outsourcing will continue to better their infrastructure and living standards at the least. If there arent many jobs (Manufacturing, Software etc) in the country which does outsourcing, people will be less and less capable of buying what those outsourcing companies sell. What hopes does an educated American have when it comes to jobs? What have been the effects of outsourced Manufacturing (to China, Taiwan) which has existed long before. How did the average American cope with it?
No flames please, just balanced views. Thanks!
MS has nothing to do with this. Think twice. It has everything to do. Slackware, Gentoo, Debian are fine. Linux in the Corporate world needs support from well established companies. So all your hobbies can still be catered to by the other distros and GPL'ed sources but corporate support for Linux is what MS is interested in killing. With Novell buying Ximian and Suse and supporting their Linux distro and desktop along with .NET engine (Mono)which could potentially run all of the Windows apps on Linux, it was becoming a little too much of threat to MS.
Let's plan on 'patenting' this algorithm before MS does it! Any one knows if the above algo is already patented?!!
.... Microsoft's hand in this? (Remember the $2b?) Probably MS has confidence - that Sun will not fall short of burying itself along with Novell, Linux and Ximian. That gets rid of the competition to Windows on the Server and desktop both. Much like what happened with Crapaq buying DEC and then HP buying both to kill the Alpha and use it's bones for Itanium - Thus paving the way for Intel to succeed in 64 bit market?! It's another story that AMD hit the right chord as far as 64bit market goes, and that too without any of this politics.
I am running XP Pro SP1 + SP2 on two different machines and XP Home SP1+SP2 on other machine. No problem whatsoever. Is this yet another case spreading FUD? The cases of failure seem pretty generic - not specific to any particular hardware or software setup - and I would tend to think if it occured to them, it must occur to me and many other people. Other people with SP2 - What's your experience?
Sorry- SFU doesn't run on XP Home - They want us to buy XP Professional or may be Windoze 2003 Advanced Server for running just the SFU. Cygwin which does exact same features, doesn't really care what the OS is. Whole of M$ is flawed, and so is there $oftware.
True.. I once screwed up my brand new Sony VAIO Laptop because of silly mistake and extreme hurry. I had bought a new RAM chip and had to put it in instantly. I didn't had the Philips 4 headed screw driver and imagine what - I pulled out the plastic lid thinking all would be fine! (The VAIO had a single screw on the lid.) Needless to say it screwed the motherboard and now I am stuck with a Presario 1500 :(
I bet they are going to give the tools away for a very low cost or still better - free. This is one of their many ways of killing Linux and OSS, and it's bound to be effective - More developers can afford to write software for Windows. The tools themselves are way better than anything we have on Linux - There is better documentation, better integration and productivity. While we OSS campers are busy producing multitude of Desktops, APIs, Component models and office suites, M$ is hitting hard, right where it hurts the most. This, in my book is a sad day until someone tells me OSS folks have a plan to counter.
Libraries - Static linking and dynamic linking are some things the effect of which you can nullify by comparing object files. GCC for example statically links stdc++ and MSVC does not. So comparing end executable from both for size is not really right.
NOT a bug. If I compare object sizes instead of final executable sizes, G++ in deed produces smaller code than vc++ compiler. Excellent. I am happy!
Even if I disable inlining (-fno-inline) it does not make a significant difference for g++ generated code. Very slight reduction in TEXT size.
The differences are in TEXT (Code) section. Debug symbols would appear in DATA section right?
YES. Exactly same output with strip -s -x!
I compiled the Conformance sample that came with it - Once with G++ [3.3.1] -O2 and once with cl /O2 /EHsc and noticed the huge code size differences -
CL
==
text data bss dec hex filename
76892 8192 0 85084 14c5c conformance.exe
G++
==
text data bss dec hex filename
200508 1992 19088 221588 36194 a.exe
That's horrible code generation from G++. It can't be so bad.
Parry
Well let me clarify - I was generally talking about your normal run-of-the-mill software development work. Otherwise I agree that Americans have produced really laudable and genuinely innovative software and Indians have no such credit to their record. But there is nothing that can prove on a one-to-one basis that a Indian programmer is less capable or less quality minded than his american counterpart for the normal day-to-day s/w development work.
I did find it amusing in a previous /. India outsourcing thread, one poster from India praised his firm's CMM level 4 or 5 achievement and talked about how they were getting the business because of their quality efforts. It's a nice goal and it'll retain a couple of accounts, but to pretend for a moment that you're being used because of your quality is like a prostitute thinking she's appreciated for her intellectual qualities.
Having worked with many american counterparts as programmer/architect/tester for the so called big names, I can confidently say that whatever you are ranting about quality is not really true. After cautious study and observation, I found that the american programmers do not offer any significant quality benefit over their Indian counterparts, have little care for the client they are working for, and are not all that inclined/able towards producing quality software - And they do all this at a hefty price.
What I have experienced is that all the big names really care little about software quality beyond a certain limit - And Indians are good enough for any upward/downward limit you impose on them. Indeed Price is the King if you are offering something that does its job reasonably well.