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Time to Try a Linux Desktop?
bigbadwlf writes "EWeek has an opinion column, posted yesterday titled, Isn't Now the Time to Try a Linux Desktop? Quote: 'The crackers currently have the whip hand over Windows, and Microsoft's assertion that Internet Explorer is now part of the operating system shows its flawed reasoning. Worried sick about the latest rash of Internet Explorer security problems? I have the perfect solution for you, one that's even better than switching to Mozilla, Firefox or Opera. Switch operating systems: Go to Linux.'"
What's that? ;)
Fucking a fat girl is like riding a scooter... it's fun 'til someone sees you.
We have the oppurtunity to get the population away from Windows. We're getting to the point that setting up a Linux distro to be usable is easier than Windows, even if you aren't a geek.
Disconnect and self-destruct, one bullet at a time.
Some one is getting the picture, remove the software of shame, attach the software of triumph!
Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. - Voltaire
I never heard someone saying that I should switch to Linux. Wat an original idea!
My photo's.
The people who are constantly getting hit with viruses, spyware, IE holes, etc. are exactly the kind of people who would have a hard time getting used to and accepting Linux. Most of the potential switchers (like me, for instance) already have their Windows boxes well-protected. There needs to be a better reason than just "it's not Windows" to entice me to convert.
No matter how much Microsoft supporters whine about how Linux and other operating systems have just as many bugs as their operating systems do, the bottom line is that the serious, gut-wrenching problems happen on Windows, not on Linux, not on Mac OS.
i agree, linux/macosx is more stable/secure than windows.
having said that, i think this whole article is irrelevant. i don't care if linux is completely rock-solid with absolutely no security flaws, this alone will not persuade windows users to switch to linux for desktop usage.
we've been through these discussions over and over again. linux is NOT a suitable desktop operating system for the majority of users. most users do NOT want to spend a whole lot of time reading documentation on how to setup/configure their system, and most find it fustrating.
Marge, get me your address book, 4 beers, and my conversation hat.
the problem is, that for your actual "average user", they will say, "where is my MS Office" and "where is my internet explorer" and I need my Norton Anti-Virus. Linux is great, but it's not for the average user yet. An acquainance of mine can't get over the fact that his win xp box doesn't have a floppy disk drive. What would he do if I took his start menu away?
Just like the year before.
I'll sum it up: use Xandros, SuSE, or Linspire. Use CodeWeavers or Win4Lin if you can't handle OO.o.
It doesn't really go into the details like migration issues at all. The author only mentions the difficulty of moving over in one of the final paragraphs.
Slashdot: Where people pretend to be twice as smart as they really are by behaving like children.
How about trying a FreeBSD desktop instead of Linux?
I enjoyed the article, but only in a smug self-satisfied Linux user kind of way. Aren't we preaching to the converted here? I don't mean to flame, but there wasn't anything new there.
BTW, I have eight gmail invites to give away. First 8 followups that I see at +1 (my posting threshold) get an invite.
Yes, we are definitely coming closer and closer to the point when there is no major obstacle for switching to Linux on the desktop.
...his larger point, but I don't understand why everyone has latched onto the idea that the shell:// vulnerability in Mozilla was patched so quickly. It sat in Bugzilla for two years, most of it classified as WONTFIX, before an exploit turned up and it was dealt with.
What I'm listening to now on Pandora...
Actually, if Microsoft factored their code properly there would be almost nothing to Internet Explorer -- a few high level calls to standard libraries and that would be that. Agreed, this isn't what they've done (although they might be fooling themselves into thinking this is what they've done) -- but it isn't an inherently bad thing to say that Internet Explorer is "part of the operating system" so much as saying the "operating system" itself should be nothing but a nanokernel. Even Linux fails in that regard.
Seastead this.
... to be pushing the Linux desktop? I'm a linux user, have been for quite a while, and am trying to get my parents and friend using it. However, Linux STILL has many problems that keep it from being THE OS choice for everyone, even once you get around the user-friendliness issues (having not tried any of the more polished desktop distros, I can't comment on these issues.) Application compatibility: Many people use crummy applications that don't stand a chance for porting to Linux. Pinnacle, my mother's video editor of choice, comes to mind. Also, some people, though there are better pieces of alternative software, still are so stuck on their old apps, they refuse to switch to a superior alternative Hardware Compatibility: Every time I go out to buy a piece of hardware, or even to go drool over the latest pieces of hardware, I find myself thinking first, "Can Linux support this yet?" This creates a problem for the user that wants to go out, buy a peripheral, plug it in, and have it work. I'm not saying Linux won't be ready for the desktop very soon (because I think it will be QUITE soon,) but I just think that perhaps now is a little early to say "Switch to Linux. Like, now."
If you are really hardcore I suggest trying tron on the desktop. Now that would be something to write about!
Let users try a distro based on a 2.6 kernel, so it can thrash their dual-booting system and lose all data.
Security Center Editor Larry Seltzer takes a different view of the bug in Mozilla on Windows. Click here to read more.
I'm clicking but I'm not getting any reading. I assume this is the same for everyone else. For anyone who wants to read the article that wasn't linked properly, check here:
Larry Seltzer on Mozilla Flaw
She's built like a steak house, but she handles like a bistro....
I am a n00b, just installed linux last week, The thing I am haveing trouble with is wireless, it seems near impossible to get my hardware recognised, I have recompiled the kernal, re installed, yada, yada, but noi luck.
My point, untill linux is more accepting of hardware, we need a dare i say it, windows like driver installation and setup prosess, linux will never take off on the consumer level while the prosess of updateing less complex and more streamlined.
I am really lovein' linux - Power to the penguin
These are all lies, it is _really_ time to switch to BSD. C'mon people, pull yourself together!
I don't see the point why we need to convince Slashdot to use Linux. I would see a reason for such a newsstorry on CNN or, even better, MSNBC. Wait, why am I thinking this won't happen? Oh, maybe b/c AOL's software doesn't run on Linux? Or is it b/c MS owns MSNBC? As long as the newsmedia and telecomunication industry is owned by the players that have a stake in sticking to Windows, we will not see Linux in mainstream in the US.
who | grep -i blond | date cd ~; unzip; touch; strip; finger; mount; gasp; yes; uptime; umount; sleep
Those that wish to switch from Windows to Linux simply to avoid security problems with Internet Explorer may just find it easier to use an alternative browser and practice common sense when dealing with suspect links.
It would take a lot more work switching to Linux due to not only learning how the new operating system works, but also how to learn time saving shortcuts that come with the OS and the new productive applications needed to acquire.
This article uses the widespread threat of hackers "holding the whip hand over Windows" when in fact it's not that much different than before. There'll always be hackers and there may always be holes in IE, but if you can practice enough common sense to not click on suspect links or download attachments in e-mail, then for the most part you'll be fine working in Windows.
If I were to switch to Linux I know that I would lose at least 3-5 days of productivity just installing the damn thing.
USB is still a little fucked up, but the vendor support *is* coming around. The market needs a customer base to get their ass in gear for compatible gadetry, so why not go grab yourself a distro and boot into the 21st century? It doesn't cost anything, and you can always dual-boot to ween yourself off of vendor lock -in. If that's a little scary, then grab Knoppix, or MandrakeMove which boot and run from cdrom without even touching your system.
boycott slashdot February 10th - 17th check out: altSlashdot.org
You could use Linux and give up your games, and 90% of your other apps...
OR...
Ditch IE and Outlook (together responsible for 99% of Windows problems right now) install Services for UNIX on your Windows XP/2003 box and run all of your Windows apps and games PLUS all of your UNIX apps.
Sorry, but Windows still controls the applications universe.
- Adam L. Beberg - The Cosm Project - http://www.mithral.com/
I just cant agree, that linux is as nice and easy to use as windows. Dont misunderstand me... I dont hate linux. Just installed a gentoo linux on my machine some weeks ago. But: KDE just does not feel good and what are these ugly looking fonts? They just dont look as sharp as my windows does. Having installed my graphics drives kde ist quite fast, but still feels slower than my windows does. What about all the nice prof. software? And: my friend baught the newest hardware and... linux just doesnt support it. No drivers! That would never happen to you, if you use windows. And all the pnp stuff. To get my md running on linus required some serious googleing. How would my sister be supposed to do that? She just knows how to switch the thing on and thats enough under windows to get almost all pnp stuff running. Yeah windows sux in security. But buy a nice router with a good firewall and dont lick on everything some mandy sent you. I think windows will always be the os for non geeks and linux 4 those who care security and not about comfort.
To truly compete against Windows, GNU/Linux needs to have a line of hardware, clearly marked, that it will work flawlessly with. Big distros like Suse and Mandrake need to focus on courting hardware companies to prominantly mark their products with Tux. Period.
Not just desktop computers, either. You need to have everything from laptops to USB thumb drives to MP3 players to digital cameras and camcorders. Your computer IS your digital hub.
Linux users need to get in the habit of acting like Mac users. They don't have the hardware support, so they need to make it blatantly obvious what hardware does work with their platform.
The other big thing Linux needs to survive (other than Quicken and TurboTax) is Office VBA compatibility. In the Enterprise, this is essential. There are plenty of BASICs out there, why hasn't OO.org incorporated one of them?
Patience, Grasshopper.
I've run Linux off and on (more off than on, really) for the last 5 or 6 years. Started with Redhat either 4 or 5 point something or other. Only reason I quit was for games, I think.
Well, recently, I got the bright idea to try XP and long story short Windows won't even let itself install on my hard drive anymore. So I took it as a sign and switched to Linux again.
I recently received in the mail 4 distros, Knoppix 3.4, Suse 9.1 personal, Mandrake 10, and Slackware 10. I had used Suse 8.2 and kind of liked it, hoped they'd fixed the bugs, and I guessed it would have the best installer of the three as my machine was being quirky.
Well, I was right. It installed fine, everything worked. It installed a rather limited package selection, for example I cant get xchat installed because it depends on gtk2 which I installed but for some reason it's being a bitch and there is no xchat on the cd, but I digress.
Other than the limited package selection (however I did cheap out and get the download version on a burned cd, so I guess I got what I paid for) it's excellent. Other Linux distros have been crashy when I tried to do anything cpu intensive, but Suse has yet to crash on me under all the stress I cared to put it under. I have to say they did fix most of the bugs that put me off. And if I do grow tired of it, well, I have two other distros and an EXCELLENT live distro sitting in my desk just begging to see the light of day.
So, yes, now IS the time to try a Linux desktop.
Emory: Uh..we're still..beta testing that.
Oglethorpe: What you're testing is me and my patience!
The article's basic assumption is that Internet-related work is the defining factor in what OS I choose. Adobe hasn't released a Linux version of Photoshop, Illustrator, or InDesign. Many other apps I use on a daily basis are either just not released for Linux, or are at the status of someone's pet project on SourceForge. This is not to knock the wide array of software that is available for Linux, but the software needed for me to do all my daily work is not quite there yet.
In the meantime, I use Firefox for Windows which is nicely patched (and quite quickly patched at that).
I've been saying it for 2 years. Believe me, switching to Linux's worth the trouble of installing it.
Yesterday I was working on my mom's boyfriend's computer, which I installed a fresh copy of XP on a couple days prior. Already, there were bluescreens during shutdown/reboot (due to IRQ conflicts with our precious plug-n-play system), Adaptec CD-Creator wouldn't print labels (but everything else would print fine), and right-clicking on My Computer to go to properties would yield a cryptic registry-based error before opening properties. He had AOL 9.0 installed as his only Internet connection. I was using that to download drivers, and search for other things (such as "workarounds" for the ever annoying XP Activation), and IE would hang at just about every other website I would go to, rendering everything else I was doing on the computer useless until it freed it's resources. I found myself getting completely frustrated after about 10 minutes of working on this hunk of *$&#, because I couldn't even browse the web to fix the original problems. I installed FireFox, and that helped a lot with the browsing issues.
All I want to say, is that I've been using Debian Linux for about 5 years now, and just switched from using the "ultra-elite" Fluxbox WM to Gnome 2.6 since it got uploaded to Unstable, and I have had absolutely 0 problems. It JUST WORKS. It's easy enough for my mom's boyfriend to figure out. Even the horridly cryptic "gconf-editor" is easier to get around than regedit. I don't see why anybody in their right mind would still fend for Windows when they have a completely usable, prettier, faster alternative with 99% of applications able to do what Windows apps can already do.
SWITCH TO LINUX!!
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
trying to convert the average user to linux will only mean more work for yourself. They'll be all excited about the new system and go out and buy an iPod w/ iTunes. Within a few days of setting them up, just wait, the phone will ring..."but it says it works on PC and Mac!"...you will spend hours on the phone before, finally, you just give up and reinstall windows.
Switched from Windows 2000 to OpenBSD two years ago. Mail server is a Sun Ultra 5 loaded with OpenBSD 3.5 runing QMail, courier-imap and SquirrelMail.
Workstation is an Athlon running 3.5 also, but with X, mplayer, xmms etc etc
File server is a Sun Ultra 30 running OpenBSD and NFS.
Firewall is an Epia 800 mini-itx with an extra network card running 3.4, configured as firewall and DNS and mail anti-spam/anti-virus gateway.
Linux may perform some of these functions slightly faster, but I'm happy.
Just two days ago, a marketing VP I know called to bash Microsoft. He'd lost "thousands of e-mail addresses" (he's not a spammer, just well-connected) because he had answered "Ok" when Windows asked if he wanted to "repair" something.
He wanted me to walk him through installing Linux, right then and there -- over the phone. So I did. I said, "Well, what I recommend is you get your feet wet, first". I Asked him how he used his laptop; What were the applications he couldn't live without; What were the ones he liked but could live without, etc.
Then I said, "You know, all the applications you mention are ones that will run on both Linux and Windows. Why don't you download and install them, first on Windows, get to know them and then switch all the way to Linux, once you've adjusted?".
He agreed to give my recommendation a try, and that was it. Storm calmed. About an hour later, he called back to say he'd found the file containing his address book and had "reconnected it to Outlook". Problem solved.
Seems like, recently, I've run into more and more awareness of (at least the word) Linux. It's becoming a great "save" me" point when clients get frustrated with Windows. They just want to give Microsoft the big heave-ho! And, though I and everyone in my home and office have been Microsoft-free since 1998, I find myself talking people out of taking the plunge.
I wish there was a distribution that gave me the confidence I need to recommend it. Since all I know is DEC, Solaris and RedHat/Fedora, perhaps I should buy a copy of Linspire and try it out -- for clients' sake. Any other suggestions for helping people transition?
I already run Mac OS X. Why would I want to switch to Linux?
The elitist attitudes, and the complete lack of aesthetics that Linux programmers posses will prevent them from releasing anything worth my time.
(Note: I used Linux exclusively on my desktop a year ago, then I got fed up and got a Mac. Now I sit here wondering why I wasted my time with something so pathetic)
The only real way to switch people to Linux is to give them a new computer with Linux!
Heck, people don't explicitly BUY Microsoft-Windows. Instead, they GET it on their PC at the store. Most people don't know what Windows is, and they certainly wouldn't pay $100+ for a copy of it.
Linux has to be offered as an option when you by the PC at the retail store. If Linux were included, with a bunch of office software, for $50 less than the plain-jane MS-Windows bundle, then you've got a winner.
"Oh, would you like the Linux option? Sure... That'll save you $50 out of the gate, and then you won't need to spend $400 for MS-Office, because OpenOffice is included FREE".
Sure, Microsoft will have to compete. But as we know, competition is GOOD. It'll force MS to produce a higher quality, lower-cost product. And that's what capitalism is supposed to be about.
...but those who could use Linux (i.e. using a limited set of common applications that are also available for Linux) simply aren't persons to "try out" anything.
Here, I set up a Linux desktop for my parents (actually, it was more of a Linux server for me, we simply added keyboard/mouse/screen), and it turns out they use it more than Windows. Properly set up with a cron job to update itself, it should be nearly maintenance-free.
Personally, I run Windows on my main machine (+ X server to run Linux apps) because there are simply so much I'm not ready to let go of, and emulation in Linux.... well, in my experience it's either a) very slow (typically VM solution) or b) difficult and buggy (emulation / system call translation ).
Linux is making big inroads in the corporate market. Don't expect to see any serious migration on the desktop until that has happened. After all, that is where most non-computer interested people get their computer experience and knowledge.
Kjella
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
I finally got sick of windows two months back. Tried mandrake 10 community and now half of the computers here run on several flavours of *nix. (Debian, slack and mdk.) Windows is now only used for directx games and that wont last long once we get a subscription to winex4.
I personally think linux is now good enough to challenge M$ in the desktop market.
I ate your fish.
First, this button turns on the computer.
... we call it a key board.
Second, you use this board with letters, numbers and symbols on it to input, "type", information into the computer
Third, you move this kinf of round object here to select stuff on the screen, "moniter", which we call a mouse.
Ok, you got all of that. Good. Here's a cd with linux on it. You have to install it to use the computer. I have to go.
All kidding aside, you know that's going to happen, most of my family is that way with the ironic exception of my grandma. I think she has worked on computers since they came out. She has a box with XP on it that she rarely uses and another on that is of the pre-pentium era that she uses frequently. In her case, I think she would do better with linux than windows, but I don't think she is savvy enough to install it herself. If this is going to work, computers are going to have to be shipped with linux pre-installed and be readilly availabe.
When I can connect my ATI All-in-Wonder capture card and use it's abilities 100%, sync and download apps to my Blackberry, sync my iPod to my MP3 collection reliably, print DVDs flawlessly with my Epson printer, I'll think about Linux. Someday.
I'm probably leaving some other cool things I do with my computer too.
I don't know about these articles. He starts by suggesting that some people would be better off abandoning windows for linux.
Then he finishes by offering ways to run windows, win4lin, within a virtual machine on linux.
I am getting tired of cheerleaders. Journals, I don't think this one, install, manage, or write code for any open-source projects.
He doesn't offer any solutions or ideas, just researches other peoples suggestions and reformats them.
Randy
We've got a problem with open source products - they're hard to "market." A significant reason that Linux hasn't overtaken Windows is that its hard for a consumer to purchase (try going to your local Best Buy or Radio Shack to buy a Linux O/S machine). Compare to Windows, which is everywhere. Since my mom or sister are no more likely to re-format their hard drives than swap out their car's transmissions, they'll remain in the Windows camp by default. A second prob is that "Linux" doesn't exist as a single product line like Windows XP and XP Home - instead, we've got countless distros that confuse people. Brands are hard things to build, and I see this as a serious problem for mainstream adoption of open source.
Take the time; let's do a little experiment. Go searching through the archives for any and every newsworthy bug, exploit, or vulnerability which has affected any part or whole of the Windows Operating System. I absolutely guarantee you that half the comments and followup posts to the article will be some variant of "This is the perfect time to switch!". Like the tellings of crazed prophets, I now expect the "End of the World!" proclomation every time I see some bug or patch made public.
What am I getting at? It's simple: this *isn't* the perfect time to switch, and neither will the next exploit, nor the one after. There's are reasons (although, granted, few) that Windows won't go away. It's fine and good to set up a linux box for Grandma and hand over the controls when you're done padding the floors, but try getting Grandma to install Linux herself (just about any version here, folks), or Dad, or Mom, or Sis, or anyone else who hasn't been playing with Linux to begin with. Have fun (and make videos!) of them trying to admin their systems or set any options more advanced than Desktop Resolution in their DE. There's an idea as well: let's see them try to install and setup their windowing system as well.
Before your shouts of "Check the docs, newb" get too loud, let me point out that this is exactly why the "lesser beings" are slow to switch: they don't need the docs for Windows.
Now, don't get me wrong, we are headed in the right place. Gentoo and RedHat are decent examples of where administration and/or ease of installation/usability should be going. But don't turn a blind eye to the fact that we ain't there yet.
I tried Linux (Fedora 1) a couple of months ago. I found it very easy to install (better than the windows installer). I got used to the interface very fast. I was able to configure the UI.
The problem I had was installing new software from the internet. Aptget was confusing. I couldn't install the newest Linux NVidia drivers (needed recompiling of the kernal or something).
I tried installing a few FPS demos, but couldn't. (Ut2003, America's Army, Quake 3)
I've tried several distro's and it seems to me that there are several very good ones available. I've used Lindows/Linspire which I found very easy to use and RedHat 9.0 was easy to get running well. I've had trouble with Fedora 1&2 and so have moved on. I carry a Knoppix Live CD with me and like that one very well, too. At home, I'm currently using SuSE 9.1 Pro and it's the best yet as far as performance and ease of use for my desktop applications. Yast seems to work well. I was easily able to d/l and install Opera, which is still my browser of choice. Now if I can just get my mom to quit using AOL!!
"Do the Right Thing. It will gratify some people and astound the rest." - Mark Twain
"Do the Right Thing. It will gratify some people and astound the rest." - Mark Twain
I recently decided to give Mandrake 10.0 a shot, and I am pleansantly suprised! Except for a few minor glitches that were easy to iron out it installed perfectly on the first try! I would say it's equally as easy as a Windows install.
Also, after setting up the http mirrors I found that software installation was incredibly simple. I was able to install everything I needed in just a few mouse clicks. This included everything from Apache/PHP/mySQL to silly stuff like Gaim.
This is the first Linux install I've ever had where I didn't have to edit at least a couple text files to get it to run properly. I would reccomend it as a great "Linux Desktop" for the Average Joe user.
Most Linux distros are now dummy-friendly enough at install, but until it's easy to install/upgrade software and drivers without touching the commandline at all, Joe Sixpack is going to want nothing to do with it.
Nevermind that no hardcore gamer is going use Linux as their primary OS what with the increasing number of DirectX only games. Half Life 2 will probably be the nail in the coffin for people claiming to be Linux gamers.
It's not really the Linux community's fault that developers are using a non cross-platform API though.
Games.
I love Firefox, I try and get it passed on to all my non-geek friends, but the only ones who pick it up really are the geeks. I'm sure that if I used Linux, I'd love it, because there would be a billion things to tinker with, and that's one of the things I love about computers. But my non-geek friends would all be like... whaaaat? Root? Huh? I forcibly install Firefox on their computers, and a month later I see them using IE again.
It's all about familiarity. If someone's been using Microsoft for years, they are simply not going to switch unless the alternative is easy to find, easy to try, and easy to master. Which means Microsoft is going to have to install Linux with Windows XP and have people pick. And when they choose XP, they have to say, "You should really try this other thing." Hell, I don't even know where to download a Linux distro, and I read slashdot on a daily basis. I don't even know which distro is the best, the one I should use. I do know that I'm using XP, and while it may suck, it does play Counterstrike and Vice City and FFXI and all the other things I want to play.
It's never going to happen. The only way you can get it to the mainstream is keep pounding away at the places where non-IT people work with computers. If enough people use Linux there, soon some of them will start to bring it home. Those people are your target market.
As long as the vast majority of personal computer offerings come with Windows pre-installed, there's no reason for people to try Linux. I know you can get an MS-free desktop *if you try hard enough* but that doesn't cover enough of the users out there to matter. We still haven't figured out what is going to tip the scales.
If I'm wrong -- my bad, and apologies to the Mozilla guys!
What I'm listening to now on Pandora...
I just dumped Linux altogether for FreeBSD for one reason: it was a HORRIBLE desktop system.
I went to log in one day and then ran startx. Imagine my surprise when xinit took over five minutes to run. Imagine my surprise when it took several minutes to launch a single Firefox or Nautilus window. Imagine my surprise when, under Gnome, it took several minutes to resolve hosts on my cable connection.
Linux is NOT ready for the desktop. I dumped it for FreeBSD because I figured that if the desktop part was just going to stop working I might as well just run a BSD and forgo the prettiness altogether. Switching to Linux just because IE sucks ass is ridiculous. This is the sort of assinine nonsense that makes Linux supporters look like completely raving idiots.
Alito: A vote for Alito is a punch in the eye to put that bitch back in her place!
Sorry, but just switching to Linux isn't a viable alternative for most people right now.
We are now surfing safely. However, it should be said that [1] the Mozilla-derived browser crashes regularly and unreproduceably. [2] In KDevelop, the wizard-generated "Hello World" program won't link (make) or run. [3] "Network Connection" program goes into 45-sec. loop, then crashes because the same entry is repeated several times in /etc/resolv.conf. Huh?
Still has a loooong way to go...
Slashdot entertains. Windows pays the mortgage.
With linux pretty much anything beyond installation off of the CD you have to know what you're doing. Fair enough. With windows you don't have to know much at all. In which case you'll likely do stupid things like get infected with spyware, trojans, worms and who knows what. If you just barely know what you're doing with windows, you won't be infected. Unless of course you're trusting another dumbass who doesn't who know what he's doing to use your network.
Should people succeed on their crusade to lure all the idiots to linux there will be no Rapture. Instead the idiots will learn just enough to be dangerous. Things like those Mozilla arbitrary code exploits? You think the lazy morons who won't use Microsoft update to fix windows are going to hustle right over and get the latest patch for the big green browsing machine? Think the linux administrators are going to be as proactive rolling those security fixes out as all the windows admins? I do. They'll do it after the next round of Xtrek. Promise.
OR....
You could ditch your windows box and get a Mac, run all your mac programs, use fink to run all your linux/unix programs (or roll your own...) and Virtual PC to run anything windowsish that you still own.
Did anyone notice that the talkback section of the site was filled with anti-linux posts. A couple of them were really nasty too...
/. crowd. Sheesh.
And they complain about us, the
At first, the *X systems were used by expert and entusiast of the computers, but at the moment that the system was accesible for all kind of people, this chaged.
:-) .
--
One day, I'll be using a BSD system, but now I choose Slackware.
This people have no time to learn C, assembly, *read* the "fine" man pages. The computer must be accesible for everybody, but at what cost?. I have seen this change with my own eyes. So, at this moment I use the Slackware, because it has been a good GNU/Linux distro with UNIX flavour for years.
In order to finish, I think that must be distros for everyone. Some of them for newbies like Mandrake, and some for who loves UNIX like Slackware. So the diversity must be defended. Would be fantastic that everybody used free software in a future, but this software should be *good quality* software
I just tell people to get a Mac. OSX is the usability that Linux should have, plus its a more secure and stable environment. In the end though, it really doesn't matter, your machine is only as secure as you make it, and most people don't know how. MS gets all the grief because they are the most noticable. Guarentee you that if Linux or OSX were on top, they would get just as many hits..
Forget about Mac OS X! Run Mac OS 7.6.1. Nobody knows how TCP/IP really stacks up on that OS.
Umm, this is a non-sequitur. This legal argument (which it's ridiculous they had to posit in the first place) is that IE is part of the OS. In actuality, as anyone now agrees, an OS _has_ to come with a browser.
From a technical front, this "mistake to make it part of the OS" argument is a laughable joke. It has no bearing on anything.
Yes, indeed, the number of applications you have for GNU/Linux is sufficiently lacking in comparison to those for Windows. However, I really do have more than everything I need on my Gentoo-based GNU/Linux system. Though I would like some better sound editing suites, that's really minor. I have Blender, the GIMP, and everything else I need. And I'm free.
http://mediagoblin.org/
The world is not ready to switch to Linux as a desktop, and Linux isn't ready for the world to switch to it as a desktop. It is very confusing for people who have no computer experience, and even for some people who are good with computers. Personally I don't like Linux as a desktop yet either. On the server side, it's great. But in a desktop environment it's not very easy to use yet. I use Windows XP and I love it. As long as you keep your system updated, and not use IE, along with other things that should just be common sense, you will be fine. If everyone switched to Linux, everyone would start bitching that there are too many security holes and you would say "Switch back to Windows!" then the other Spartacus' will join in just like it is with Linux. Every OS has its flaws, it's just that not as many hackers will take their time on something that can't be used as widely.
I recently went to a lan where I played most of the games natively in linux, given that they were opengl based. Some other games I simply booted into windows to play but I now know that these few games (specifically bfv) will run under winex4, at least according to reviews. So I'm not going to give up games just to be a linux user, I'll bring the games with me, even if they have to be emulated. As for 90% of apps? What rubbish, specific apps should run fine in wine if there is no equal in linux but so far I have switched all but two of my windows programs to better open source versions. Those two programs I can live without or emulate perfectly fine without troubles. So really I don't see what is stopping the home users except for the fear of something new. And they had that fear when they learnt to use windows so why not have it again?
I ate your fish.
How about in practice? I switched my parents to linux. They had no problems using it. And believe me, my parents are far from computer savvy (my mother couldn't figure out how to install new fonts in windows). My girlfriend was curious as to what linux was like - I gave her a knoppix CD, and she figured everything else out herself.
Have your mom go buy a new printer and scanner and try to install it. Have them try to install an application themselves.
We always hear about people who have switched their non-computer-savvy relatives to Linux, but that doesn't mean anything. It's the computer-savvy people you need to target. People who do nothing else but write e-mail, surf eBay, and keep family photos can use pretty much anything from OS X to Windows 95 to KDE. It's not saying much to brag that Linux can use a printer or surf the net. It's when people want to install a new video card, or perhaps a new DVD burner, or perhaps they want to hook up a microphone and try some recording, or maybe they want to play The Sims 2, or maybe they want to install (or better yet, uninstall) an application. Perhaps they'd like to switch from dialup to DSL.
There are a million different possibilities that go beyond someone's grandma who just uses Linux to browse MSN and check their e-mail. I mean, big deal. There's more to a desktop than that.
Well known troll. Don't believe his offer of invites.
Rich
Will those run on Linux?
We live in interesting times, don't we?
linux is only seen as secure because the users have a mild clue as to what they are doing and firewall their PC or at least keep up to date with the updates..
bottom line is Windows is second to Linux on 'MOST DEFACED WEBSITES' on most defaced web archives including that of http://zone-h.org
The only problem I have ever encountered with Linux after a WHOLE 2 years of using it, is that the sound dosen't work all the time, im using ALSA w/ the dmix plugins, but when I want to see a flash site, it needs ESD or ARTS depending on whether I'm using Konqueror or Firefox. Having a program like ARTS freeze up and block the sound channel is such a PITA i have to use `ps aux` & kill to remove the offending program, and thats just something that I shouldn't have to do.
To a good portion of the computer-buying public, OS = User Interface. There's often very little, if any, understanding of the inner workings of the computer. What they see is what it is. The only reason Win98 was different from 95 was the Quick Launch bar. XP has gradients, auto-hide icons in the lower right, grouping of taskbar items, and the X in the corner is red. Oh, and things always run faster on the new OS (never mind that it's usually on a faster computer). Until Linux is clean and pretty, and behaves consistently, it will likely be percieved by the mass public as "oh, there are so many different ones! I'm confused!"
-- I prefer the term "karma escort."
The only way Linux is ever going to attract users to switch from MSXP is application support, and an interface that not only rivals OSX, but beats it in anyway imaginable. That's when word of mouth spreads and people realize how easy it is to use a computer with this new fangled linux based system. I bet you any amount of money that when you ask an average Joe User about linux, he will immediately say "what's that?" or "I heard it's too hard, and my software won't work with it".
The technology for Linux is down. Basically any Linux or Unix variant has been primed and ready for mass distribution since close to day one. Problem is, Apple and MS were the big wigs that got to the friendly UI first, and for some reason the trailing OS creators still can't seem to make a powerful, yet functionally simple and compatible interface for my mom to use without having to think about how she should partition her drive at the beginning of an install.
Nobody is going to switch to linux because they associate the name now with hard to use, professional, a learning curve the size of Mt Everest. People ARE switching to Apple because they associate the name with simple, easy to use, everything just works, which is true for the most part. So really, linux isn't competing with Microsoft anymore, it's competing with Apple.
Come up with an OSX like system for the PC and maybe you'll start to turn heads.
I use Linux desktop. Sometimes OS X, but Linux most of the time. And I am very happy with it. I create computer graphics for money with it, and I use it for all my everyday tasks. There were issues (winmodem, 3d acceleration, tablet support) but now it is ok. Ok, I am techie. But i installed it on my girlfriends computer, and on my mothers computer, and they are using it too. My mother never used Windows before. There were some problems (she was not able to use mouse and so on) but not Linux specific. I had more troubles with my girlfriend as she was used to Windows, but everything is ok now. So, users can switch to Linux desktop if someone helps them. The only imporatnt thing is that those users use computers for purposes which Linux can support. I wouldnt recommend Linux to someone who wants to play lots of commercial games.
SHE does throw dice.
is a CANTFIX? The problem discussed in that bug isn't fixed. It can not be properly fixed in Mozilla. If I register a new protocol in Windows, Mozilla still doesn't know what the fuck to do with it. Launch or not launch? Do the user expect us to launch it? Does the protocol handler expect to be called from an untrusted web page? In some cases yes, like an e-mail program or a stream player. In some cases no, like shell: or vbscript:. I repeat: This is not, and can not be fixed properly in Mozilla.
The specific exploit was found and patched in a day. Windows will patch it in SP2, but not the real problem. It is like Mozilla finding an antidote for one specific problem, on an OS with no immune system. The only way Mozilla could cure this problem would be to not launch anything at all, which is kinda like providing network security by pulling the plug.
So like I said, not WONTFIX but CANTFIX. This could all happen again tomorrow. And the day after that, and the day after that until Windows provides information as to which protocols are safe to launch and not. Nothing can be more safe than the foundation that it is built upon, and in this case it is lacking. That is why it can only be exploited on Windows, not on any other platform.
Kjella
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
So what happens when the hackers decide to target Linux, a platform that offers a lot more flexibility once you've 0wn3d the box? People will know less what to do with half-GUI/half-CLI Linux than they will with the 99.99% GUI controlled Windows. I know some distros will offer better updating than RedHat's new "what's up2date?" policy, but don't act like open source has never had any security holes. People will be less likely to update these things unless it's forced on them, and Microsoft is just now getting around to making that happen. I think you overestimate joe-sixpack's armchair admin abilities.
"Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart, he dreams himself your master."
So what needs to happen is for new products to have good linux support...but developers/manufacturers compare the windows market with linux and see that windows is clearly a more profitable way to go. So the choice is make lots of money, or just make a few geeks happy.
Maybe what needs to happen is to somehow make it extremely easy to port things to linux, more support for things like wine.
I use XP on the desktop, and Fedora 1 is installed and running on my "test" server, since I do a lot of web work.
Quite frankly, Linux is nowhere close to being a consideration for the desktop market. I could probably use it without any major headaches, but I'm not the "average" PC user.
The problem with linux is that its designed by hobbiests, for hobbiests. People who use XP don't care about their OS, how their drivers work or how to write code in emacs. Most folk I know don't even know how to access the contents of a CD if it doesn't autorun for them. They do know that the fonts don't look "pretty", and they get bent out of shape when you explain they can access the web using several different programs (What?). You want these folk to edit a text file and use a command line? By the way, what's a text file?
There's only one OS out there that can challenge the windows dominance of the desktop market right now: OS X. Unfortunatley, this OS continues to be tied to ridiculously overpriced hardware. I'd be the first to switch from XP entirely if I could run OSX on my x86 platform. (oh, and play some games too)
In my opinion, if the open source community spent some time writing an OSX port to x86 (yes, I know: copyrights fuck the market again!) windows would die a quick death.
Ask yourself this--what do you think someone is going to say when you tell them they have to run a Windows API simulator to run their Windows applications? They'll just ask you with a smirk, "Then why don't I just run actual Windows?"
The rest of the world doesn't share the anti-Microsoft, almost religious viewpoint that Linux is the better operating system just because it's open source and UNIX-like. They'll want actual reasons to switch. At most, they'll just use Firefox on Windows if you try to bring up IE insecurities.
I sensed a few months ago that Linux was getting to be more feasible for desktop use by non-geeks. When I saw that Mankdrake 10 Official had been released, I downloaded the ISOs, formatted my hard drive, and installed Linux in place of Win2k. It lasted about a month.
It's not that Mandrake wasn't good, but the overall experience just wasn't as hassle-free as Windows. I figured out how to install RPMs and build programs from source, and was generally able to troubleshoot when things when wrong. My digital camera and CD burner worked without trouble. But I couldn't get GIMP 2.0 to install properly (and I certainly tried). And configuring Wine to run some of the Windows programs that I need for work and recreation (Garmin MapSource, for example), proved impossible. Spurred by a few other annoyances, I decided to move back to Windows.
No doubt I could have tried harder. I'm probably in the top 2% of the US population in terms of competence with computers and surely, given the time, I could have made most everything work. But why would I want to invest the hours in Linux when Windows almost never gives me problems? The Windows installer works great, 2k is pretty stable, and I've never had any security issues (I patch regularly and use Firefox and Thunderbird).
Yeah, Linux is pretty good--far better than the last time that I tried it (Red Hat, five or six years ago). It's Free. But Windows works better for me, and with less hassle.
Now, I will concede this: setting up Linux as a "grandma box" might work great. Grandma would be able to surf the web, use e-mail, and manage her digital photos easily, and without having to worry too much about viruses, spyware, and adware. But I'm not grandma... I know how to avoid such nasties.
Anyway, maybe I'll feel motivated to try Linux again in a few years.
I would stick with Mandrake 10 and KDE except I use Firefox and Thunderbird. At 1600x1200, I can't get KDE and GTK apps to show fonts at the exact same size. Drives me crazy, so I resort to FC2 with Gnome, which I don't like nearly as much.
Does anybody know why that is?
Thanks.
The problem with switching people over to Linux is that Linux is largely unusable by 99% of the population. I know there's plenty of geeks out there who's knee-jerk reaction is to disagree but it's true! Most people are neophytes when it comes to computers. Go up to an average individual and ask them what brand their computer is. Many won't be able to tell you. Ask them what version of Windows their running. Blank stare. They don't know. Now, just try to image, TRY to imagine those people installing a new program under Linux. It's laughable. They're not even going to be able to start. Sure Linux has some good qualities but EASE OF USE is NOT one of them. Yes, it might be easy for YOU but it's not going to be easy for MOST PEOPLE.
Mac OS X, on the other hand, is terrifically easy to use. Want an alternative to Windows that most people can use? Mac OS X is the only game in town.
I believe I possess adequate knowledge to operate my computer at a higher level than the 'average' user. Surely not much higher, but I can easily accomplish a hell of a lot of tasks the average person can't. I'm no programmer, graphics artist, network specialist, etc. I'm just an average user. I browse the internet, burn CDs (legally of course!), play games, and all that good stuff.
After hearing so much about Linux, I figured I'd give it a try. I read quite a bit, and decided I'd go with a distro that would be easier to use. I couldn't make up my mind, so I tried SuSe, Mandrake, and RedHat. The installation was a breeze, far from being easier than Windows, but even a child could do it.
Once each was up, I played around with it, tested what it could do. It was a major pain in the ass to get my video card and sound drivers (Epox 8rda+ and an Nvidia MX440.)The packages didn't install right, no sound, no hardware 3d support, no onboard LAN. So I had to go about compiling and tweaking. I eventually got it to work, after putting a different NIC in, and reading up on how other people got it working. There was no short supply of forums detailing how to make the Nvidia drivers work. From there I went on to try Slackware, and of course, Knoppix. I stuck with Knoppix - on CD of course, and went back to Windows.
I've gone back with each major release, just to check the progress. I've seen enough changes, but it still lacks a 'user friendly' environment, which Windows has. Certaintly a lot has been sacrificed to make Windows easy to use right out of the box. The average user won't know what to do if their hardware doesn't work right after the installation (and a lot of the time it doesn't). At this point, I can't honestly say I'd reccommend the switch to Linux unless it's someone who will be truly dedicated to the task. It's like being in a completely new, and different environment. One day Linux may take a large share of the market from Microsoft, but it can't be forgotten this 'market' is mainly comprised of people with only a basic understanding of computers.
People will continue to say Linux is not ready for the desktop. But really I've heard that said just as many times as I've heard people repeat "It Just Works"... And its getting to the stage where it is said in parrot fashion by people who havent tried a well-put-together linux desktop.
Sooner or later that phrase is going to go out of fashion. From my own personal point of view, everyone can see, that Linux is growing and gaining momentum. With every release "It just gets better"(lets repeat that parrot fashion instead!) My retired parents have taken to mandrake 10 like a duck to water without any problems. I run a fresh build of gentoo, and despite the initial installation; I visit the command line considerably less than I did 5years ago when I first switched. Lots of people have similar stories. No matter what side of the fence you sit on pretty soon the definite question is not going to be "Is it ready for the desktop" is no-longer going to be asked. So we'd better start thinking about what the next big question for linux is going to be.
Electronic Music Made Using Linux http://soundcloud.com/polyp
I guess its that time of the week to post one of these "Why you should switch to Linux" stories. Sounds like such a subjective story (...) when you see in the first few paragraphs comments about MS supporters whining and crying. Here's a perfect quote:
"Want to stop the Windows security and patch management madness for good? It's simple: Get a good Linux desktop."
Not sure if the author is implying that once you switch to Linux you never have to patch again, but it sure isn't any easier to patch your system under Linux than Windows. And I sure don't consider patching under Windows to be some kind of management madness (unless you think their automatic update process is troublesome).
My main issues with Linux is driver and application support - it has nothing to do with stability and security.
The author makes a good case from a security perspective for switching from Windows. He fails to point out why MacOS wouldn't be a more suitable candidate. MacOS X has an excellent security record , can run MS Office (all versions) natively, and is extremely user friendly. If your user's not exactly tech savvy, I doubt they'll be able to do crossover office. Additionally, if you run multiple OSes simultaneously, I fail to see how this solves the security problem.
The only disadvantage to MacOS is price, but for any business, this price difference is easily recouped by being completely immune to the worm du jour.
Really, it's inertia and slick marketing that keep MS in its place.
-- Political fascism requires a Fuhrer.
What's that you say? The editor of the section of eWeek devoted to open source and Linux writing a pro-Linux piece?
That isn't a thoughtful article. That's a little thing you might have heard of before called: "his job".
We always hear about people who have switched their non-computer-savvy relatives to Linux, but that doesn't mean anything. It's the computer-savvy people you need to target. People who do nothing else but write e-mail, surf eBay, and keep family photos can use pretty much anything from OS X to Windows 95 to KDE.
Um, that was my point. The original post said complained that it was the unaware computer-phobic people that are being asked to switch (due to all the viruses, spyware and the like), but such people are incapable of using Linux. All I said was that that was quite possibly rubbish. You are here agreeing with me. I agree entirely that the computer savvy windows user is much less likely to change. So what? You say "It's the computer-savvy people you need to target", but I don't need to do anything. I switched my parents to linux because, quite frankly, it is easier for them to use. I have no aims for linux global domination, or the destruction of the windows empire - I just want to make my parents computing experience a little less painful.
Have your mom go buy a new printer and scanner and try to install it. Have them try to install an application themselves.
Actually they've done both already. I bought a nice boxed distribution for them complete with a little manual. They read that, and followed the instructions.
Perhaps they'd like to switch from dialup to DSL.
They're planning on doing that eventually actually. Then again, with the distribution they're using that is no harder to do than it is on windows (there's a nice setup wizard that you just step through).
Sure, there are still issues that they'll run into occasionally, but then they ran into plenty of issues on windows too. In general linux has been easier for them to use, not harder. Yes, that's largely because they aren't very computer savvy, and will struggle with basic administration tasks regardless of what they are using, but THAT'S THE POINT. For them it is easier, and that's all I'm worried about.
Jedidiah.
Craft Beer Programming T-shirts
Tautology detected!
On a more serious note, the "Linux desktop" (the DEs rather) is far from perfect. I've not seen anything new in this article. Then again, i doubt i was the target reader.
Freedesktop.org development community is doing great stuff:
* Feature rich X server (Composite, Damage, etc)
* HAL / DBus (True hardware plug & play from the GUI to the userland interfaces)
* Compatibility and uniformity between the FD.O compatible DE's.
* And many more...
1 is gonna be released on 25 august. Let's write a review on the current CVS to get people hot already! 2 is SID, but i've seen/read beautiful speeches and reviews on it already. Very interesting and user friendly. Let's write a review on this instead! On point 3 there is improvement, but there could be more on regards of fonts and GTK/QT/Other_TK configuration.
People are not going to flock to Linux unless it supports the software they want. Trouble is, much of the software they want comes from companies that get maligned by the very same people supporting Linux.
Then add to that the games that people want to play, or their kids want to play, and there is little reason for anyone to switch over.
Let alone the fact that work will not support ANYTHING non-MS/Novell and it becomes pointless to have something different at home when it provides no real benefit. A good Windows user is safe from the majority of problems. Frankly I would not want the ones who are not good Windows users to have Linux. All we need is a bunch of insecure linux boxes to attract the bad guys.
* Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
this has been a discussion on slashdot for years. the thing i've noticed is the same points are told over and over again. Currently, i'm running a win98 box, a newly installed fedora 2 box, and i'm typing on an ibook. I have been really impressed by the new fedora distro but it still isn't as brainless as a mac. if linux wants to win the desktop war it needs to appeal to the everyday computer user. no terminal, few options, and most importantly it just works. normally the posts on slashdot like to bash microsoft for stealing from apple. if linux is to advance in the desktop war is should start stealing from apple. I guess we'll see what happens now that apple has released Rendezvous open source.
"we've been through these discussions over and over again. linux is NOT a suitable desktop operating system for the majority of users. most users do NOT want to spend a whole lot of time reading documentation on how to setup/configure their system, and most find it fustrating."
There are MULTIPLE categories of users.
Corporate data entry
Corporate desktop user
Home "grandma" user
Home "power gamer" user
And so on and so forth.
Linux is a GREAT idea for the CORPORATE user. It is easy to lock down and it is easy to remotely administer and it is very resistant to viruses and worms and it is INCREDIBLY STABLE. Also, corporations don't rely upon the end user to install and troubleshoot the OS, the apps or the hardware. Which is probably why so many cities and governments are looking at migrating to Linux.
For "Grandma", maybe Linux isn't a good choice if she doesn't already know someone who knows Linux. But if she does know someone like that, then Linux would be a good choice for her (no viruses, ad-ware, spy-ware, etc).
And so forth.
Making blanket statement such as "we've been through these discussions over and over again. linux is NOT a suitable desktop operating system for the majority of users." is counter productive (and incorrect).
Lots of people can use Linux at work (Corporate setting) and Windows at home ("Grandma" setting).
The author recommends using Linspire, which runs as root by default (or did this change?), and Sun's JDS, which as of 1.5 months ago supposedly sucked.
The other recommendations are fine for starters. Probably should have put WineX in there, and maybe Crossover Office too.
Security Center Editor Larry Seltzer takes a different view of the bug in Mozilla on Windows. Click here to read more.
:(
helloooo, sorry. click where? This hyperlink apparently doesn't work. Perhaps it is not suited for vewing under galeon 1.2.5, which is the best borwser on the world?
maybe this link works only for IE? gah...
#
#\ @ ? Colonize Mars
#
Konqueror ( the web browser for the K Desktop Environment (KDE) for Gnu/Linux ) is integrated into the desktop....which is not as severe as being surgically grafted into the operating system, as is with microsoft windows. However, I wonder if having Konqueror sewn into the KDE opens up Konqueror/The KDE to similar issues as ms windows/Internet Explorer have being joined at the hip?
the other end of the galaxy is more on-topic.
Netscape is dead and they're still winning the browser war. How is this possible? Well, consider what Netscape's goal was -- and why Microsoft reacted so violently to prevent it: Netscape wanted the Web, not Windows, to be the primary platform for new applications.
Microsoft may have obliterated Netscape in market share, and eventually forced them out of business, but look around. Every year, more and more applications have moved to the web. We are entering an era where it doesn't matter what operating system is on your desktop as long as it has a web browser.
Netscape wanted to move apps to the Web. Microsoft wanted to keep everything tied to Windows. By that measure, what do you see happening out there? Netscape is still winning the browser war. Microsoft knows this all too well, which is why they're now trying to marginalize non-Microsoft browsers by adding proprietary formats like XAML.
IBM's monopoly was broken not by a competitor who beat them in mainframe market share, but by a paradigm shift. The same is happening to Microsoft. The very fact that there are already a few million Linux desktops out there -- and that they're doing real work -- proves this.
Tired of FB/Google censorship? Visit UNCENSORED!
YAY!
... but no one will believe it because you dumbasses have cried wolf for so long!
...
2 weeks must have gone by!
Because its time yet again for yet another "It's Time for the Linux Desktop" article!
Just like we've heard every 2 weeks for the last 5 years!
Let's moderate Micheal as -100 dumbass REDUNDANT on all his useless articles.
Maybe in 10 more years one of these articles will actually be true
Ya, I could throw away all the profit my business makes, I could throw away all the functionality I have with windows, I could throw away all the easy simple interoperability that has allowed me to thrive for years without a problem
BUT your GOD DAMN 'open source principles' won't put food in my belly when the rest of my industry can't give or receive data in linux compatible formats!
FREE! damn fools! how is it free when you have to spend weeks making programs compile to run with the full advertised functionality! not everyone can just pop in an RPM to use the programs they need.
dumbasses.
Twitter, is that you?
This is Stallman.. Thanks for the head you gave me last week, no one does it better. Hope you didn't stain your shirt like last time. Have a good day!
Bowie Poag might actually be doing something useful these days.. Hm.
...the screenshots there are impresseve at least.
In my house, we've got four desktop computers that are used to get online and do various things. The first one is an Windows XP box, that is used by my spouse (and by me whenever I've got to turn in a timesheet for work).
I've been using linux since 1998, during the days of Redhat 5. I've switched distro's a lot since then..Redhat, Debian, Mandrake, SuSE, and now Fedora. The other three desktops are running a locked down version of Windows 2000 (for the kids should they need to get online for what-have-you), and SuSE 9.1 and Fedora Core 2.
I can see and like the changes that linux has progressed throught the years. I can remember using things like gaim and mozilla and having xchat crash--or the frustration getting a movie player to work right on my system.
Today, I see things like the kids showing an interest in linux and the GUI's...them telling me that it's different, and they like the way that it works. I even see my significant other take an itnerest in Linux, and she's a non-geek for the most part (Microbiologist).
As Time progesses, so does Linux. I can plug my Digital Camera in to the USB drive, and my system recognises it. Configuration of my network cards was a snap...no hassling around with modprobe. People actually buying Lindows and stuff at Micro Center because it looks easy to use, and it *is*.
I've burned Knoppix cd's for the group of guys that I work with (mainly a non-technical cable puller bunch), and I see some of them using it instead of the XP that our company provides us.
Linux for the desktop is here--the only people that can't support it are people that need bleeding-edge hardware support, or the people that need specalized applications. For J6P, Linux just works.
I disable sigs...do you?
"But since worms etc can't do much damage if they kill their hosts, they're not losing their data."
Now, imagine a worm that changed a few random numbers in a few Excel spreadsheets that it could read/write.
It wouldn't kill the host, but it would cause lots and lots and lots of damage.
The virus/worm writers have NOT been focused on damage. They've been focused on spreading far and fast. And until they start to focus on damage, you will appear to be correct.
The only way to stop that is to be PRO-ACTIVE before it happens. And pro-active does NOT mean relying upon re-active systems.
Next week we're going to do a test roll-out of FireFox to replace IE at the company I work for. That is pro-active. We know there are flaws in IE and the odds are that more will be found. We aren't going to wait for something to get through.
"The reality is that us Windows users aren't scurrying around like that. Even the less techinically inclined users are running anti-virus and the sort."
My email scanner tells me a very different story. Again, I am pro-active in that I block ALL executable attachements from coming in. My first line of defense is NOT the re-active anti-virus updates.
You can keep believing that Windows users keep their anti-virus crap updated and running. But I see too many virus emails and spam from zombies to put much faith in your opinion.
I won't even go into the worm probes on my firewalls.
Pro-active is the best approach. But re-active is all the Windows users have. Too bad, so sad.
I use linux, gentoo. I love the idea of source code, fiddling with stuff. I run bleeding edge kernels, bleeding edge KDE. I support and contribute to a project. Linux is perfect for me.
I thought I spent alot of time maintaining my machine. I'm aware of the security flaws that show up for the stuff I run, and keep up to date. I am totally unfamiliar with Windows, as the last windows I ran was 3.1.
My co-workers run windows. 2000 and XP. One is on dialup and had some remote exec IE flaw change the phone number to a 1-900. The telco swallowed the bill luckily. He scans and has 6 virus' on his machine. He has no idea where they come from and is getting increasingly frustrated and afraid. To keep up to date with windowsupdate would tie up his phone for days. The other co-worker got a worm from somewhere and had to rebuild his hard drive.
I run bleeding edge written yesterday (literally) software. The worst thing that has happened is my palm db wasn't backed up due to some bugs, and I lost a few days data. Otherwise it works. My wife uses email and browser without any problems, worms or even spam. On this same linux box.
The Windows Experience (tm) is frankly horrible. Linux is getting better and better all the time. When one co-worker bought a computer a year ago, I didn't suggest Linux because it wasn't ready. I knew the issues he would face from his usage. Those things are fixed now. I think it's time to encourage a switch.
Derek
I need your help in switching to a Linux desktop.
At home, no brainer, and not really much of an impact because we are running Firefox only...
At work, however, I need to be able to terminal service into Windows Servers, interact with the filesystems on Window Servers directly, and do development and debugging of MS SQL Server apps via a Query Analyzer like product.
Any recomendations?
The article recommended Xandros, but I am cheap. Any other good distros for the desktop?
rdesktop looks like the right answer for terminal services.
What about a Query Analyzer like tool? Anyone out there doing what I want to do?
TIA
I have SuSE 9.1 Professional. I tried configuring a VPN connection using PPTP to my workplace which uses a Firebox 4500 (which uses an embedded version of Linux). I used the instructions with the client for my specific distribution (pptpclient.sourceforge.net) and got nowhere. The connections were made but data would not traverse the tunnel, despite multiple routing entries, etc. Under Windows XP I create a new entry under VPN networking and bam, I'm connected.
I like to modify my menus. I'm particular about how programs are labeled and categorized. Under Windows this is a no brainer - you can edit the menus in place, or right click and choose explore and modify from there. Under KDE (and Gnome) the menu editor stinks. It loses track of single items (not categories) not even showing them. I ended up hand editing my menu items (thankfully freedesktop.org has a description of what the text files should contain!) in order to get them to show up properly.
Is this the idea of a desktop operating system? No. As bas as it is, people want a graphical operating system and they want it tied closely to the underlying file systems and hardware. Linux may detect new hardware but does that detection extend into the graphical operating system?
Don't even get me started on playing video files under X and the intellectual property issues involved. I know and understand that the Linux community can't do anything to fix this -- it is the codecs and codec owners involved -- but it is a stumbling block to adoption.
Finally - there is the issue of no program ever getting to final status. This one has been picked up and banged on by a lot of people in the past few months but it is the truth. It is part of open source and open standards, and most programmers want to itch their own itch. If I were going to set out to create a volume control program I certainly wouldn't go out of my way to find someone else's past code - complete with their bugs and bad architecture - to start with. Yet I find myself with over 5 volume control utilities on my newly installed SuSE 9.1 system. That's kind of silly!
A unification of an operating system is *not* bad. Having someone direct the operating system and its integration with other software is and can be a good thing. Most distributions try to mold this software into one look and feel, but if they go to far (BlueCurve) a good percentage of the community goes up in arms.
Linux has the hardware support. Linux has the software support. Linux does not have the integration of the software with the software, nor the software with the hardware, to compete against Windows as a desktop operating system at this time IMHO.
My reality check bounced.
But MacOs X is what Linux SHOULD be...
after a few years i ditched linux for good...
it's not all that nice and sunshine you know
Many times I've switched to the latest release. Then I wondered why I did. Sorry but Linux is not for the main stream user and won't be for a very long time. Linux is still playing catchup and will be for a very long time.
BTW why is Linux content copying everything MS? Its a poor decision and one of the main reasons for not switching. If I wanted windows I'd buy windows.
About the custom apps and so forth. That's why you implement a "migration plan". Some can be moved now, some won't be able to be moved for a while.
Where I work, we're moving all of our custom apps to Citrix servers or switching to web-based versions. I can access all of them from home, on a VPN, running Linux.
I'm also doing a pilot program with FireFox replacing IE. Just moving people off of IE for general surfing should reduce our workload with regard to spy-ware/ad-ware crap. We have a few IE-only websites that we need for work. But that can be solved with the "View in IE" add-on for FireFox.
Out of 300+ people here, only about 10 of them know or use anything more than the basics of Excel or Word. Re-training those few wouldn't be that expensive (compared to the cost savings of getting off MSOffice).
The current system is only "good enough" because no one has bothered to show them what a Linux-based system can do. The Linux Terminal Server Project changed quite a few minds. They also thought IE was "good enough" until I showed them FireFox and tabbed browsing along with SpyBot and AdAware to clean up their systems.
There might be problems with customers using different file formats, but we ALREADY have those problems. HR constantly comes to me with resumes that they want printed because they don't format correctly when they print them.
It won't be an easy drop-in-replacement, but it can be done. And the little steps at the beginning yield big time savings in support.
Let's face it I don't have to be a car mechanic to drive a car for my convenience so I don't have to be a CS graduate in order to be able to use my computer. Most people (the VAST majority of the MS crowd) don't care! That's right, they don't care about CS, about linux, about MS, about IE about anything. Why should they care? When was the last time a car dealer sold you a car on the condition that you'll take car-mechanic classes or crash-courses or enlist to online support forums? People buy a computer to use it for their job or convenience right out of the box. The rest is intellectual wars from people that are personally involved in IT or CS or Tech Science in general and assume some sort of importance by declaring their preferences.
What MS created and keeps creating is an OS that even that last computer illiterate can use with no problem. It has gone a long way that way but now it is time for them to reverse a bit and patch up the security holes they user-friendly OS architecture created.
Linux on the other hand started from the other end by creating a robust system on a solid architecture and slowly crawling to user-friendliness. The year Linux will meet with MS midway will be the year of the Linux.
Yam, yam, uga booga, yam, yam, yade, yade, uga booga, yam, yam, yade, yade
>Have your mom go buy a new printer and scanner and >try to install it. Have them try to install an >application themselves.
A couple of months ago I helped some friends with a new printer. It was a Brother HL-14xx connected to a SMC 7004WBR router. It was trivial to set up on the laptop running debian with CUPS. But I only had an afternoon and never got i working on the Windows ME computer even though I had CD's and manuals for Windows, the printer, and the router. It is still not working.
So ME does not handle LPD natively and the Brohter software kan handle 4 or 5 protocols, just not LPD. It would probably have worked on Win XP, but that didn't help since I could not upgrade to XP over the internet.
Repeat after me. "Outlook is not Outlook Express. Outlook Express is not Outlook." I assume you meant to specify Outlook Express here, since Outlook has been pretty damned secure since service packs for Outlook 2000. Besides, since Outlook costs money I doubt many home users bought Outlook and are using it instead of the free Outlook Express.
Linux is harder but once it works it works. I always waste some time if I have to install a linux system on getting it right, it even crashes a couple of times. But once I finished it just stays up and works. I never had linux go tits up on me.
Of course this is my personal experience. Yours may differ. Currently my windows game machine in windows explorer when I click on a folder in the right pane it opens search. I can't change the default action in the file options and basically am just stuck with no option but a reinstall. In 4+ years of linux use and 8+ years of unix use I never done a reinstall. EVER. (perhaps this explains why I need more time to install linux then windows. In 95/98 days I could do a windows install blindfolded.)
So for me the article is total nonsense. I long since switched and am loving it. Linux is like a willis jeep and windows is a BMW AND (and this bit is important) I AM A FULLY QUALIFIED MECHANIC. The jeep I can fix with basic tools. The BMW just has to be towed to a garage if something goes *bleep*.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
Does it have colour management?
please god i hope no one takes this one serious...
"mod me up scotty!"
\x69 \x68\x69\x64 \x74\x68\x65 \x62\x6f\x64\x69\x65\x73 \x69\x6e \x74\x68\x65 \x66\x72\x65\x65\x7a\x65\x72
Microsoft apps are easily adminstered on Microsoft platforms using Microsoft tools.
/home directory. And both of these solutions allow you to control the personal setting of each user. But it does take scripting.
But those same tools do NOT work well with non-Microsoft apps (or platforms).
"Is Linux desktop administration even remotely like this?"
Sort of, but it is still mostly scripting the changes.
"I've been admin'ing Windows boxen for close to 10 years now and I'm not afraid of the command line, but if replacing all my desktops with Linux means I have to hire 2 more of me to keep up with the core admin tasks, no thanks."
In my experience, it takes FEWER people to admin X machines running Linux than it takes to admin X machines running Windows (given similar experience levels). So you would not have to hire 2 more people.
"I'm looking for broad-perspective comments from those who have experience with Active Directory and whatever the corresponding Linux desktop alternative is."
Linux doesn't have anything like Active Directory (a directory service that is tied to the OS). You can use LDAP or such, but you won't get the same level of integration of OS/apps/directory.
But, as you've noticed with Active Directory and FireFox, that "integration" is limited to Microsoft apps. And only for those aspects that Microsoft has chosen to make available in that fashion.
The key issue to understand is that Linux is not Windows. The way you've configured your network to operate efficiently for Windows is probably not the most efficient for Linux.
Two examples:
#1. The Linux Terminal Server Project: In most labs, this is the easiest solution. Go to any terminal and you get the exact same desktop as before.
#2. NFS mount the
They could really care less if their PC is turned into a spam zombie..
If they can still run their games, and balance their check book... it doesnt effect them so they dont care..
Nor do they care about the costs, or that they are feeding an evil monopoly.
*we* care, but the 'real world' doesnt...
---- Booth was a patriot ----
If the reason you are not recommending Linux is because it doesn't work with your kit, that is *really* dumb.
Actually, I think you're making thsi shit up and are talking out your ass.
PS Works finwwith my cannon A40 camera, my samsung laster printer and my canon BJ4300 inkjet.
If he installed a legit copy of XP on a plain vanilla home pc, why not just activate XP and be done with it? In three years I have never been asked to reactivate XP and could care less about a one-time, one-click, process that is instantaneous over broadband. If his discs were pirated, why should it come as any great surprise that the install was corrupted?
Don't use Linux. Use Windows. Windows is finally becoming usable @ the command line!!
testing out my trending skills
No linux vendor has what's required, and that's the combination of hardware, software, and baseline apps and API's that Apple has. Moving to a mac solves all of the problems for the end user that moving to linux would, and it does so in a much more concrete, concise package. I get the heebie jeebies recommending people move to linux on the desktop because I know the inevitable 8pm support phone call would be coming.
Linux is great for fileserving and other tasks, but right now, the package is far from ready. This isn't a problem - I'm not sure that linux is ever going to be a desktop environment. Linux works great for my fileserver, FTP server, and web server. It works great for email, just like OpenBSD works great for my firewall. I'm not sure it will ever make a "good" desktop OS. Could somone build up a good desktop OS? Sure! I just don't see it happening. Apple, I think, has filled this niche.
I ran Linux as my primary OS until I got a mac, and let me tell you, things have awhile to go. I've said this many times, but Apple did what Redhat should have had the vision to do: Take linux, take some hardware, make the two work flawlessly, get some APIs and development tools in a nice supported package, and roll it out. That's what's needed for Unix on the desktop, and let me tell you, unix for the desktop is available right now. On OSX.
Linux certainly has the capability, and you can easily make linux work for you if you're technically inclined: For most people, better alternatives are out there right now.
..don't panic
they will have a significantly harder time breaking the system into pieces with stuff off of the Internet.
Here's an idea. stop me if its already been done:
I know its possible to create a chroot "sandbox" so that you can run stuff inside of it and not have to worry about screwing your system. would it be possible to create an application which would do this automatically, so that when you download something off the internet, you can easily run it in a sandbox without taking the time to create such a sandbox by hand? of course, then there's the issue of whether or not linux n00bs would actually know or care to use such a thing or not...
SIGSEGV caught, terminating
wait... not that kind of sig.
If you are a windows born and bred type of computer user linux will be hard. Especially if you really want to learn linux and not just whine on /. about how it is not windows.
People with dos experience will have the basic mindset that not everything has to be done in a GUI with a wizard but people raised on windows 95 and later will have to do some adjusting.
Oh and if you want linux to be like windows just give up right now. It isn't and hopefully never will be. Linux is a unix. Love it or leave it.
So on to my tip. DO NOT SWITCH. DO NOT INSTALL LINUX OVER YOUR WINDOWS and expect to enjoy it. DO NOT EVEN USE DUAL BOOT.
Why not? No matter how smart you are if you are used to Windows 95 and later you will find plenty of moments where you just get stuck in linux. If you are in dualboot and need to reboot to read up on how to get your network up and running then you are setting youreselve up to get a hatred of linux because to you windows just works and linux doesn't (you ofcourse will be forgetting that you once had to learn to get windows to work too).
Instead setup linux on a old machine and use a kvm switch to switch between them. Then you can use your old familiar setup to read up on how to work with your new OS and if for some reason you quickly need to do something you haven't yet learned on Linux Windows is only a button press away. Get frustated, lost, out of time? 1 press and hello windows. Want to try again after your head cleared? 1 press and back you are to learning and trying.
KVM switch (keyboard video mouse) is even better then two machines next to each other. Why? When you press the button for linux that is all you see, no problems with two keyboards and one is easier to type on or the windows machine has the bigger monitor. Keep the printer on windows for now so that when you got some long piece of text on windows on a linux subject you can print it (printer setup in linux is easy enough once you mastered it, mastering it isn't easy for everyone so wait, babysteps)
Now if you got linux running smoothly start using it for 1 or 2 tasks. If your a gamer do all your browsing, downloading and music playing on linux. You will then notice if you use a browser like opera you can keep all the webpages open as you like, have downloads going in the greatest memory hogs java ever spawned, play your mp3 collection from beginning to end WHILE gaming with 100% of your windows machine. Does the game crash? No worry, the linux machine will still be playing your MP3's while windows reboots, have the walkthrough page where you left it and the download happily downloading. BUT always remember to take babysteps. Don't do them all at once. One at the time. Browsing /. is probably the easist.
Next you may try stuff like Mplayer (linux movie player) and get rid off all the conflicting codecs on your windows machine that are just eating resources. Try openoffice for writing your letters. Email may be intresting to switch (do you really need outlook and exchange at home?)
I think this way works best, it works excellently for me. I am a web developer with some coding skill and an avid game and anime watcher. ALL my gaming is on windows plus some photoshop. ALL the rest is on linux. Because my game windows doesn't do anything else I got more memory for my games and more cpu cycles. I also care far less about game crashes as it doesn't interupt anything else (I don't photoshop and game at the same time).
Meanwhile I have learned an awfull lot of linux (to be fair I come from a unix background and had plenty of dos experience so it wasn't that hard for me) and more importantly I have the mindset that there is more then 1 OS out there. You might be suprised to learn this but if you go out into the workplace you might encounter everything from DOS to unix to VMS to mainframes (well software running on mainframes) to custom-made to windows 3.1->2003 to Linux to OS-2 to Mac OS 8-X etc.
A Windows 95-2003 person will be horribly confused. So am I but at least I have managed to learn the principles behind using a computer. Not just to press buttong X in situation Y.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
Handled correctly, Tux could be an extremely powerful way of communicating hardware compatibility. All that's needed is a standard way to identify which kernel versions support the item. Hardware boxes should come with "[Tux] 2.4, 2.6" printed on the side. If enough manufacturers and marketers get on board, the logo and version designation could become almost as ubiquitous as stickers saying "XP-compatible" were a couple of years ago.
Like XP, if Linux becomes known as something you 'trade up to', then the name-brand hardware companies will all play along. Hopefully.
FWIW
Mephis/KDE is about as refined and as easy as a Gnu/Linux/X windows __desktop___ focused distro gets:
http://www.mepis.org/
Just be braced for some assholes in their support forums.
On the other hand, linux hackers release new apps almost as quick as the kernel hackers, so we're alright.
Linus Torvalds is a nice guy and everything, but there is no reason he has to take credit for ever open source program ever written, is there?
Your corrected sentence is:
On the other hand, FOSS hackers release new apps almost as quick as the linux hackers, so we're alright.
Julius Caesar became a successful military leader because he used a technique studied by some of us in our theoretical computer science classes - Divide & Conquer. It should be obvious that Linux is fragmented, divided, even fighting bitterly amongst its various camps like communist revolutionaries...and Bill Gates is the new Caesar, who has all but conquered us.
/, and on necessary patches to the Kernel. This will keep on-line documentation relevant to ALL (too often can we locate help for one distro, but not another).
I hope that it is obvious that unification is the key to victory. Politically, Unity brought the U.S.A. great fortune, and Unity helped protect Canada from U.S. invasion. Unity between the Rohirim and Gondor (and elves and hobbits) was the only way to topple Sauron. Unity is the only way to victory.
We need Linux to become unified. All distributions from Red Hat to Yellow Dog need to join forces and at least agree on certain standards - like the location of certain configuration files on
We need a forward-looking multi-year plan, and a centralized repository for *Linux standards* that is governed by a large group of contributors and applies to all aspects of Linux. We need a United Nations of Linux!!
We need KDE and Gnome to join forces. Their libaries are so divergent as to disallow any serious investor from thinking of making a GUI-based application. It is a pain in memory and speed to have to load Gnome libraries while in a KDE environment, or vice versa. Their philosophies and overall look can remain divergent, but the core libraries need to merge into one without wrappers or callbacks.
So much energy and time is wasted duplicating work. If KOffice, StarOffice OpenOffice were one - imagine how much further ahead the resulting suite would be (roughly 3 times further I'd say!). More usable. More functional.
We Linux users are like the People's Front of Judea. Well some of us are, and we're too busy fighting against the Judean People's Front to concentrate on the bloody Romans (see Monty Python for details).
Often people will say that they like the freedom to choose between editors, or desktops, and that merging is against the principles of the revolution. The revolution is also about free software and open software, and merging forces would not negate that at all.
We need to pressure the big players (Sun, RedHat, Novell, Mandrake, X.org, ALSA, OSDN). To join forces and fight the enemy together. That is the only way that we can beat Caesar.
There's one major issue with the few distros of Linux I've tried, and that's program installation.
/var, sometimes in /usr. Sometimes /sbin. Sometimes it's /home (when I'm lucky), with a hidden folder.
I install someschmoe.rpm, and only God knows which files have gone where. More often than not, I do a file search for a name to find the executable. Sometimes it's in
That's one thing that Windows does. It may loadup your registry with hidden keys (if your date is incorrect when you install Norton's AV, you're out of time/luck when you set your system clock), it might hide files in system folders. But you know where to double click when you want to run the program: wherever you installed it to.
Just something to consider...
konqueror is not integrated into the desktop in the way Internet Explorer is integrated into the Windows OS. It makes use of the KDE infrastructure, but even if you use KDE, you can easily deinstall konqueror.
E.g. in Debian I type "apt-get remove konqueror" and I won't see konqueror ever again. I can still use all of KDE and enjoy the web with mozilla, opera, whatever. [I prefer konqueror to opera and mozilla-firefox, though. ATM I prefer mozilla-thunderbird to kmail due to easier IMAP spam filtering]
There are no similarities to the IE/Windows chimera, where upgrading the OS requires the browser and where there is no clear separation between apps and OS infrastructure and data.
Moritz
Linux is making big inroads in the corporate market. Don't expect to see any serious migration on the desktop until that has happened.
I think we have a terminology problem here. There are lots and lots of desktops in the corporate market. If you mean that corporate desktops are likely to convert sooner than home desktops then I agree. If you mean corporate servers are likely to convert sooner than corporate desktops then that's already well in progress.
Ah! Another fan of Mepis! I love that distro and I use it on all of my PC's. Warren has really created a top notch distro! As for support. I find it to be pretty good. I've gotten many friendly and helpful emails from other forum members on the Mepis site whenever I've had a question.
-Cnik
"... Switch operating systems: Go to Linux.'"
Hmmm, if I said the same thing in the context of a message, I'd be marked a troll by all the astroturfing Windows wienies.
Perhaps now that the "real" media is stating the obvious, Slashdot can now go back to its regularly scheduled programming? Inquiring minds wanna know.
Everything in the Universe sucks: It's the law!
"Now, if Unix is going to be a "replacement" for Windows, it has to work in an environment where wannabe bigwigs carry their laptops around, and that's probably going to end up looking a lot more like a Windows network than LTSP."
Nope. Because most of the people in most of the companies out there do NOT carry a laptop around. They're in a cubicle, working on a desktop PC.
So, if you can handle 95% of the workers and do so with very little effort and maintenance, then why no do so? That way you can focus more time and effort of those few laptop users.
"I think it's perfectly fair for the guy to say "Hey, I can't fundementally change how the network is run, now where's the Deploy and Policy tools for Firefox/StarOffice/etc?" If the tools aren't there, that's a big gap for Linux."
You didn't read my post. The tools are not there for most of the 3rd party products.
Microsoft tools work with Microsoft products on Microsoft platforms. That is why he couldn't manage FireFox (3rd party) with Active Directory (Microsoft) on Windows (Microsoft) the same as he could with IE (Microsoft).
Managing FireFox on Windows with Active Directory is almost the same as managing FireFox with scripts on Linux.
In fact, you can replace FireFox in the above statement with just about any non-Microsoft software and it will be accurate.
And centralized home directories on Windows have lots of problems. Just take a look at the registry if you don't believe me. Windows was not built to have remote home directories. Under *nix, the home directory contains the configuration information for that user. Under Windows, that information is in the registry.
While BeOS is not exactly current until Open BeOS is released, BeOS Max (www.beosmax.org) will provide most everything a user needs.
Runs Firefox
Email Clients provided
BeAIM
MP3 players
Abi Word
BeFinancial
The fact that we're still using X11 is not what's embarassing; the fact that X11 sucks so bad compared to Quartz or Avalon is. Hopefully, X.org will help X11 become competitive again.
In fact, I'd say that X11 is about the closest thing to a "standard" Linux has -- imagine if we had to choose between different kinds of things like that (what do you call it, anyway? a windowing system?) in addition to having to choose between toolkits and window managers!
"[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz
Certainly not me. I have never understood why zealots want everyone to be like them. It doesn't matter which linux flavor-of-the-month is being pushed since people will use what suits their needs.
Linux certainly isn't the end-all to operating systems. Anyone that has used it knows what I mean. Those same people who have security issues with M$ will have far more problems in trying to use a free OS.
Do you really want those kinds of users? I say no. I'll not be spending my time teaching and hand-holding. Let them wallow in their misery.
After all, what will you get out of pushing Linux? Absolutely nothing. The commercial linux tag-alongs peddling their "latest" CDROM or club might make a few bucks, but you won't.
Don't get me wrong, I use and have used unix (not linux) for years and won't ever use M$ again. If you use it and it works for you, that's great. But this constant preaching and zealotry won't get you anything. Spend your time doing bug-fixes or writing new applications to do the things you need to do. You'll have a lot more to show for it at the end of the day.
Re-evaluate your priorities here. Think of why are you using what you do and then go do that. Whether or not someone else is using what you use shouldn't make a bit of difference.
Lets bury this dead horse.
While not a typical experience, you cannot sweep it under the rug.
This was hidden in the games section on July 7th, 2004. WineX Install Goes Sour for LinuxWorld Editor
Have you Meta Moderated t
Number one It is out of date it has flaws.
Cygwin is slower but without the major flaws in that the microsoft version has. Problem is sections of the Services For Unix have not been updated in over 10 years fault long since fixed on linux as still holes in it. Also windows is missing the required soild firewall to protect X11 platforms from attack(Yes they get to draw all over you screen not major breach unless you class keyboard sniffing as a major breach.)
Basicly another case of microsoft not keeping there patches together.
Also Just to top things off all 3d linux programs will not work on the Services For Unix due to the X11 system being to far out of date.
And the final last flaw is that you have to complie everything it is simpler to run a linux and windows installs side by side.
It is a pitty that the line project died because it would have been a lot better fix.
I'm not sure what the Linux or Windows world is like but on Mac OS X we have this great thing called Software Update. It runs every so often and gives you a list of things that can be updated on your computer. It really only shows the basic things your computer needs like security updates, networking functionality and Apple brand app updates. The dialog box is nice, it doesn't disrupt your work and it can even download the updates in the background so they're ready to go when you hit OK.
Simply, this system works great. I bet most OS X users have very up to date systems and probably the majority are running the most current version of everything. Users aren't lazy if you just give them a simple straightforward reason to click upgrade. On OS X it's such an easy mental exercise. It boils down to "why wouldn't I want the newest version of my OS?" I guess it also helps that Apple writes comparatively good updates that don't break much of anything, but Linux and Windows should be striving for the same kind of confidence level.
Well, there's this product. That's a student version of a more full-featured program that works across Linux, OS X, and Windows.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Why is free software any different than OS/2, you might ask? Easy, the technical differences are even more pronounced and it costs less. Microsoft can continue to give software away to Universities and other "decision makers" but it won't work. People who have figured things out will just download their favorite distribution. It makes M$'s CD dumps look stone age. Linux owns developer mindshare and that is leading to user mindshare in a way no other commercial software can.
With more users, M$'s primary weapon, FUD, will go away. Free software continues to evolve and improve at a rate no commercial company can keep up with. Anyone who's bothered to use a free desktop for any real work will find Windows cramped, featureless and ugly. It will be impossible for Bill Gates and Company to continue saying Linux is unusable, unprofitable, communist and all that other nonsense. IBM, HP and others are making big money off free software. Any one who does as much as spins up a Knoppix CD, knows M$ is beat. With a little bit of free software use, no one will bother to load M$ again.
This may or may not be the year that Linux takes 90% of the market, but it will be a year that Microsoft loses and every year will be worse for them.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
sure you can! : install a vanilla redhat 4 and copy /lib and other libs needed for your old RedHat RPM application to /usr/old-redhat/lib and add this line :
into /etc/ld.so.conf. Next run ldconfig , and your old Linux application runs smooth again.
cheers,
Robert
BlenderCAD looks promissing. Better will come along and so will all the proprietary stuff. You think Autodesk or the makers of ProEngineer or Solidworks will cling to a legacy platform and die with it? Get real.
Right now, you stick to your CADing as you have, but you will want to pull your network card. You are better off sneaker netting your real work on and off a Windoze box than you are using IE and M$'s other pathetic networking tools. That will preserve your uptime and protect you from arbitrary breakage and file loss caused by malware and spyware. Realy, what serious work should be trusted to M$?
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
This is a longstanding problem, and a difficult one: we're able to build such capable systems by assembling all the essential parts from all these different projects (GNU, Linux, Gnome, Xfree86,...) but then it turns out that each has made its own (often entirely sensible) decisions about user interfaces, documentation (info, man, html), configuration file formats, etc. Forget the whole novice/expert distinction, the profileration of interfaces is a problem even for the experts.
Fortunately there's a huge incentive to solve this problem, and a lot of smart people working very hard on it....
--Bruce Fields
1. You can download a Program/Driver/Binary, install it by double clicking on an installer, and remove it by deleting it's folder or runing an uninstall program
.apps (I think with 250GB hard drives extra copies of 250KB libs won't be so crippling
.app folder) to /Applications. Nearly All Configuration is done in a GUI. OSX is easy to use and at the same time very powerfull and intuitive.
2. Config files become unnecessary (as in they are there if you NEED them, but all options can be changed in a gui)
3. Apps contain all the libs required to run them--See OS X
4.KDE and Gnome "start" menus are live (ie, they point to folders and can be updated by simply putting symlinks in those folders) It's an idea that should have been taken from Mac os 9's Apple Menu
And Finally
5. THE CLI IS NOT NEEDED (its time to put the past behind us)
I grew up on the (Pre OSX) Macintosh model of simplicity , and Apple moved that model perfectly to a Unix-like system. The CLI is never needed for ANYTHING, Apps are installed by double clicking or even just dragging a binary(actually a
Hopefully Linux will be this easy one day.
bollocks bollocks bollocks. The entire point of the article is that you CAN'T ditch IE, as it has become such an integral part of the operating system. The flaws are there whether you choose to use the underdeveloped M$ browser or not.
"The dew has clearly fallen with a particularly sickening thud this morning"
Wow- I love retro articles! Most of us with IQ's above a 100 were aware of this five years ago..
1. Start the computer
2. Boot up IE
3. Go to a banking site
4. ???
5. Russian Mafia profits!
Well, I picked up any old ADSL modem, found the project to add support to it, and posted some patches that helped get thousands of people online.
I picked up a USB graphics tablet, knowing it's not too hard to write a USB driver.
etc...
When I look at harware I think, how can I get it working under Linux.
thank God the internet isn't a human right.
I'm intelligent. I do web development, and have had to install and upgrade apache/MySQL/PHP/Perl on both Mac and Win (win probably being harder to install, since most packages are configured for unix based systems). I've even installed quite a few Linux distros to see what they were like. If I'm experienceing a problem, I can usually research it and find a solution. Etc, etc...
But do you know why I don't use Linux? It's not that I'm not capable of dealing with all the little technicalities, it's that I can't be bothered.
Call me lazy, but that's the way I feel. I'd rather just get to work (or play) than have to deal with little things all the time. Little technicalities just annoy the hell out of me. This is why I'm saving up for a Mac; the power is there, but I don't have to use it when I can't be botherd.
Maybe Linux will be ready for the average user in a few years. But not at the moment.
The question is. Should Linux be ready for the desktop. Not when. Linux already does well in techical applications, like servers. Why not focus on it's strong points?
As a matter of fact, I just BOUGHT a new printer. I tried installing it on my dual-boot system under Windows first, since I figured that would be easy. It started off saying that that printer wasn't recommended by Microsoft, then I got various error messages. I rebooted to Mandrake 10, and it detected my printer, asked me to insert the Madrake 10 CD1, and now I can print under Mandrake but not (yet) under Doze! Windows is too hard for me! :-PPP
Slow down, cowboy! It has been 4 hours since you last posted. You must wait another few hours.
Well, it wasn't that good, but having found an extra 20gb on my hdd I decided to install it, and a hell of a lot of other apps, and all i can say is, it beats anything else I've tried for a while.
,spellchecking Version Control intergration, image maps etc.....
full WYSIWYG, (view VPL, or VPL + Source)
good dtd support, good css support, preview in xyz browser, xstl debugging
thank God the internet isn't a human right.
"I'm not denying that centralized management is cheaper, just pointing out that you are trying to remedy a Political Problem with a technology product (Linux), and it ends up being a Apples/Oranges comparison."
/home directories allow fewer admins to handle more users than the traditional (non-Citrix) Windows model.
This did not start out as a political discussion. Nor do I see the political aspect of it at this point.
"As natchoboy points out, people can and do manage 3rd party apps with ActiveDirectory and some scripting."
Yes, they do. Emphasis on the "and some scripting" portion there.
Now, the original comment was:
"Contrast this with administering IE on domain machines via Group Policy. If our proxy settings change (which they do occasionally, out of our control), I just update the policy. I don't have to worry about writing my own script, fiddling with our Ghost images, checking who's been updated already, etc. Because we've already separated computer accounts into distinct OU's, I know my lab policy won't accidentlly end up on the office machines or laptops."
To which I replied:
"Microsoft apps are easily adminstered on Microsoft platforms using Microsoft tools.
But those same tools do NOT work well with non-Microsoft apps (or platforms)."
I also pointed out the a Linux-based network and a Windows-based network do not have to be setup the same. I'm still not seeing the "political" aspect.
They you both went off about laptops. Laptops are a small minority in all of the companies I've worked at. I don't see any problem with centralizing everything that can be and then having a special case for laptops. And I'm still not seeing the "political" aspect.
In summary:
Microsoft tools work best with Microsoft apps on Microsoft platforms.
Linux does not have that same level of integration between the OS/apps/directory services.
Laptops can be treated differently than regular workstations (under Windows and Linux).
LTSP and NFS mounted
If I have a problem with the browser (IE), I am going to use a different browser. Changing operating systems because of a browser problem is as silly as buying a new computer because the hard drive broke.
That not all linux systems have to be built to a certain standard. LSB is only good for traditional, more server/developer/hardcore geek environments.
That's the problem with "Desktop" systems like SuSE or mandrake, they go by a standard like that.
you can build a system that just uses the linux kernel, but can have a whole different system setup than that of traditional linux. one that would fit the desktop better. I know the linux diehards will scoff and flame me for suggesting an idea like this, but for linux to make it to the Desktop, someone needs to make a Linux Desktop Standard and create an integrated system.
One good and bad example is beos. For the local user install, or safe install, it installs to ~/config/ as root and ~/config/bin is in $PATH
Someone could make an installer that gives the user two options:
Install systemwide (requires administrator password)
Safe install/Local install
You can already do that in linux if you edit your bashrc, helps on remote systems where you're limited to your account. the system will setup however you tell the primary shell to set up.
Just a thought, and dont bother pointing out flaws, this is just half of the idea I have. maybe someone will pick up on it and improve on it, since that is the open source way.
Microsoft knew there were problems with "shell:" a year ago and it's still not patched. Does not the link they provide provide a patch dated 7/17/2003?
Do your best, hope for the best, suspect the worst.
.. I finally got my Fujitsu laptop to correctly hibernate and (equally important) wake up! Now the very last reason to boot Windows for me has disappeared.
Kernel 2.6.7 and swsusp2 did the trick. I am going to become Gentoo zealot pretty soon.
As much as I can relate to that, Places like Micro Center and the Local Circuit City *are* selling computers with Lindows on them.
Mind you, when you go in to buy Lindows, they'll sit you down and show you exactly what you're getting, but, if all you ever do is surf the net, read your email, and chat online...isn't that the best?
As much as I might not like Lindows for personal reasons, I've got to give Michael some credit for trying to market it to the masses--and he's doing a good job at trying to get it to the major retailers.
Sometimes different is better.
I disable sigs...do you?
linux is on my desktop because i want it there. a debian install is as hard or as easy as performing a nice double clutch downshift with some deft heel toe magic from the right foot. if you want an out of the box clueless install, perhaps you want a mac. no offense to mac users intended, i can't afford a mac. i have three beige boxes and an xbox on my home network, my NAT server issa headless P75 (overclocked to a hunnert) with 64 megs-O-ram anda 1 gig HDD running debian woody, my desktop issa athlon t-bird 1 gig with six something M ram and two HDDs (60 gig total)running debian sid, my newest additon issa nondescript P166 with 32 megs-O-ram and a 2 gig HDD running debian woody, and my xbox that was hacked last winter with xebian. for now its cuz i can. i like free beer and free speech. at some point i'd like to give back to the community that makes this possible, but i am just a lowly joe sixpack user.
Serenity now, insanity later.
I received a troll mod for that? *blink* Wow, I hope I meta mod that.
The reply to my post by Bruce Fields is spot on accurate - as long as good people get involved and try to solve the problem it will be solved, but until the Linux community continues to act completely independently of one another they will never have the unification that Windows does.
If telling the truth is trolling, then I guess I am. You should check my home page if you don't believe the stories about KMenuEdit and pptpclient - I have issues with both posted there in my blog, in my forums, and at LinuxQuestions.org -- with no answers, I might mention.
My reality check bounced.
I'm planning to celebrate when Linux moves from 1% to 2% on the Google Zeitgeist OS pie chart.
Danny.
I have written over 900 book reviews
Every distro I've ever installed, has had the volume in the mixer set to zero straight after install. Once I discovered this I found it a lot easier to get sound to work.
If at first it doesn't work - check the mixer.
The second thing I discovered is that the volume for the CD is also set to zero on the mixer. So once I got sound working, CDs wouldn't play - until I turned up the volume slider for the CD.
I don't know why this is, and I don't think Joe Sixpack would (or should be expected to) think of that.
You make the mistake of thinking you can educate the fundamental stupidity out of people. You can't.
I'm really curious about your hardware because I am running a computer using Mandrake Linux and all of the hardware was detected and setup correctly. Unlike Windows, I didn't have to go out and hunt down drivers for anything.
This is not the case for my computer alone but also my wife's computer and my home server. Linux came up with everything configured and running.
As far as the "fragmented" thing, I'm beginning to wonder if this is the newest Microsoft FUD. Linux is NOT as fragmented as you make out. Most programmer's write using either the KDE or the Gnome libraries. I use KDE and all of my applications have a consistent look and feel. Programmer's can make their programs look and feel different if they want to but this is the case in Windows as well. Most don't most use one of two APIs. There are a few applications that don't follow any standards. Gimp is one of them and for a long time I hated it! It's a very powerful graphics program but it's not intuitive for me. However, this is an application and does not reflect on the operating system. There are some non-intuitive Windows programs as well.
And although KDE and Gnome don't look like XP, that's not necessarily a bad thing and definitely not "hideous."
The race isn't always to the swift... but that's the way to bet!
I find the standard linux window managers very obnoxious. The more they try to mimick windows, the less intuitive they are the more off putting I find them..
Ironically my favorite window manager is fluxbox because it seems to understand *nix on the desktop.
KDE and Gnome feel like they were hot glued in place.
clifgriffin > blog
I agree.
EWeek should be called EWeak.
Yet another rash of "scare-tactics" on the helpless AOL populous.
Give the author of this post a cigar!
What we need on Linux is better 3D game support.
Hear me out on this.
Better game support = more kids knowing about Linux = more parents curious about linux = more companies being aware about Linux.
Better game suuport also = no need for dual boot = wider use of Linux = a wider testing base.
Better game support also = more hardware vendors writing drivers for Linux = benefit in software categories other than gaming.
More kids knowing about Linux also = More potential Linux only users = a wider pool of future OSS developers.
There seems to be only ONE hardware vendor that has recognized the importance of gaming to Linux and that's NVIDIA. I applaud them for that. They will reap the benefits when more and more people buy NVIDIA cards not just because of their performance, but because there are drivers available for Linux.
The sooner software gaming companies recognize this fact, the better. The nice part is that it is too late for any company, including M$ to keep them from writing games for Linux. The Linux market is starting to take off and it is in their interest to wake up and smell the coffee.
Find a job you like and you will never work a day in your life.
... actually, I can run all those pr0n CD-ROM that came with Penthouse years ago through Cedega. What else would need any new linux user?
Your head a splode
I am sooo sick of constantly hearing this on slashdot.
/etc/x11/xf86Config or wonder why they have an rpm conflict with some package. What use Debian instead? Ok, please educate my mother on dselect?
I am going to be modded down but I dont care.
Windows is perfectly fine for non server use.
My gf and I are in a long distance relationship. She wanted a new computer since hers was unreliable and slow. I gave her my older system with Windows2000 instead of Mandrake Linux like her friend wanted to isntall. Why?
A.) It does what it wans it to do
B.) Windows2000 is fairly stable and bugfree ( The windows is crap argument is old since the Dos Win3.1 codebase is finally purged)
C.) The applications are there
D.) the applications are more stable( Yes Linux distro's have beta level software that constant core dump ) Run Cine on SuSE and count the times it freazes Linux solid. Its more stable under Windows.
E.) It works with most hardware
F.) MS Office
G.) even a dummy can use it.
H.) She likes to yahooIM and Yahoo keeps changing their protocal so Gaim is non acceptable.
I.) She uses her cam
J.) She likes her windows based games.
So IE has security flaws? Burn a cd of Firefox for your windows users. Problem solved.
The average joe does not want to edit
Why does Joe need the power of Linux, shell scripting, or running cron jobs at night to update their systems?
Joe wants to point and click to MS Excel and get some work done.
If Joe six pack buys a digital camera he would like to just plug it in, insert the software on the cd to install the bundled editing software and be on his way.
You need to be educated to learn even which software package to use to sync his digital cam. Then learn the gimp?? Unexceptable.
JOe wants software that is well tested and not beta level. %70 of the stuff on sourceforge is way too bugy.
Unix is great for Servers but not for desktops.
They never will be. Get over it guys its not important what most people use. ALso its much easier to tell users not to use insecure software rather than explaining how to apply patches to packages and doing a recompile.
http://saveie6.com/
Why was this moded as a troll?
Its reasonable and Linux is not perfect. VPN is a pain compared to ther Unix operating systems to get it to work.
http://saveie6.com/
OS 9 *did* have a command-line interface
Sure, if you've just bought a nice powerful new PC, then the idea of switching to Linux might have a lot of appeal.
If, on the other hand, you're at the end of your computer's life-cycle, and since you've bought it you've managed to acquire some TASTE, let me make another suggestion: spend an hour in an Apple Retail Store and get a taste of what superior computing can actually be like.
Hi... kinda late in the thread... but anyhoo...
Long story short: I installed Fedra Core 2 on a machine that previously had Windows ME on it. To make matter worse, it also had Goback 3, which, I am convinced, permanently screwed up the MBR (Master Boot Record) of the hard drive in question.
I read the recent story/ies about how Fedora Core 2 can screw up a hard disk which has a previous OS installed, so maybe that is the crux of the issue... or maybe it Goback is to blame (as I suspect).
Anywho... I got so desperate, I even installed Windows 2000 on the box, thinking that might "normalize" (yuk yuk) the situation with he MBR and THEN re-installed Fedora Core 2 only to fine that LILO and/or Grub STILL DOES NOT BOOT.
"No OS found."
Does anyone have any suggestions on any hard core commands I can issue to whip this hard drive into shape... I will even re-install Fedora if someone can first tell me how to zero out whatever fuckupedness is present in the MBR of the hard drive. One other thing... Fedora Core 2 reports a problem with the "geometry" of the hard drive.....
any advice? Should I just try Debian or Mandrake... lol... Or is the HD really and truly (temporarily) hosed because of goddamn Goback?
GNUSTEP
An excellent point well made.
grib.
maybe
I was taking the logic of dependency is bad" logic to its absurd conclusion in order to invalidate the proposition.
Seastead this.
cant install linux, open an included web browser, and watch a movie off a web site like you can on a mac (and probalby windows) on some, you cant even listen to your mp3 collection without stepping into some legal grey area meaning joe sixpack cant just buy a machine off the shelf at walmart and watch a dvd on it. hopefully realplayer (helix) and the xiphorus project will help this, cant think of anyone else who could (except apple).
(its too bad real media pissed off thier windows users with that crappy client that kept bugging the user, what idiot came up with that?)
Your mom will need no time to getting working, is is already configured for here.
In the unlikely situation that she had problems all what it takes is to replace one or two lines in a text file.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Thank you very much.
Now, come down from your high horse, put your feet firmly on the earth and repeate after me: "not everybody is a programmer".
Frankly answers like this give FLOSS a bad reputation.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
And can confidently say your are talking from that part of yours where the sun don't dare to grace you with its warming light.
Usability has to do with familiarity and feedback, so it is not surprising that people like you, completely ignorant about usability, get so confussed when trying to explain what in reality is plain familiarity. Usability increases with familiriaty, no matter how complex a system is to use.
There are other factors that contribute to usability, but most people say Windows is usable because they are familiar with it. Well, yes, duh!
That does not mean other systems lack usability, it means they have a disadvantage when it comes to familiarity in respect to Windows.
Any person with normal cognitive capacities (i.e. not completely retarded) can be instructed to install an application in any OS, even if that means using a command line, as long as the process is consistent, repeatable and provides enough feedback to the user it can become very user friendly.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
You can nowadays, horrors of horrors, double click in an application package and that will launch the distro's tool to install it.
What sad to be trying to spread misinformation as a hobby.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
giFT is a P2P file sharing client that can access among others the KaZaA network, with the right plugins; it has a host of different UIs and a single backend. It would be nice to see more programs like that.
Moll.
What you hear in the ear, preach from the rooftop Matthew 10.27b
... is the real question.
Many of the shortfalls in making Windows suitable for use as a corporate desktop are now being addressed, but it is still a support headache for most organisations.
Dunstan
The last scintilla of doubt just rode out of town
And they wept during the install as they realized they failed to raise a son with manners.
While the article doesn't speak about GNU/Linux, it does call people who break into computers crackers, not hackers, and that's a good thing. Let's hope it's a trend :-).
The last sentence...
"It's simple: Get a good Linux desktop."
Ok, first of all, it's not simple, and secondly, I have yet to find what I would call a "good Linux desktop."
People don't seem to realize that hackers spend time writing viruses and exploits for windows because it is the most used OS. Writing a virus for linux is a waste, because it's not going to infect many people.
I already know what you're going to say. The patches will come out quicker for linux...but that doesn't change the fact that people will spend a lot more time hacking linux if it were the most used OS.
So how do I actually get WineX? I can't find where to download it from.
Is there a Knoppix-like CD-bootable gaming distro? I'd love to try it on my new laptop.
For no reason I can really discern now, I decided to scrap Windows XP and go with Linux. It could be the great stuff I heard about Cedega, as I'm an avid fan of Battlefield 1942. Anyway, I did resolve to install and use Linux on my main computer, my gaming rig (Athlon XP @2083mhz, 1.25G RAM, ATI Radeon 9800 Pro, nForce motherboard).
So I installed Gentoo. I'd done installs (with mixed success due to the old geForce ti200 I had had in my box at the time flaking out when trying to startx) of Gentoo in the past, and I decided I liked Portage and the support and documentation at the Gentoo forums and main website.
I will admit it. I'm a geek at heart. My first computer was a C64, followed by an early Apple model and then an Apple IIGS. Then I had a 286 that was perhaps 12 or 25 mhz. At that time I learned DOS by sitting in a chair in my room one day and reading the DOS 3.3 manual. Reviewing the commands and trying to understand what they might be used for - really ending up priming myself to know where I could look for more information. So now that I've installed Gentoo with no easy reversion plan should I grow discouraged, I've really enjoyed setting up my system and dealing with the problems I've been encountering. I've only been using it for less than a month now, and I'm still learning, but I like it. And it's not just the OS that I like, or the desktop manager (I was using XFCE4, but I settled on KDE - my rig is phat enough by far and I end up using some of the programs anyway. And the interface far surpasses XFCE, though it is an adequite light DE) - it is the fun I'm having with something new, something with it's own problems and benefits and abilities.
In many ways, linux is easier to use than Windows. Installing applications with Portage (or any package manager with the correct dependancy handling) is very easy, though not without snags. But, thanks to the great Gentoo forums, I've usually been able to find someone who's dealt with the problem I'm having before and am able to wrestle out a fix.
I think one of the reasons I chose to install linux is because I think it *is* the future for the PC desktop. Once you get around the growing pains, the bottom line is that it's free (as in beer, non-programmers don't really care about free speech), pretty stable, and relatively easy to use. It comes with everything you could ever need on a computer "built-in" to many distributions. And when it gains momentum, and gets to that place where there are distributions that non-geeks can install and maintain on any relatively new computer (I'm quite impressed by Xandros 2.0, that really did work out of the box with no issues at all on my athlon/nforce/integrated GF4 system), I think we'll start to see a slow exodus at first and then gain large market share as more applications are able to run native on Linux.
I installed Mandrake 10 about a week ago in a bid to get away from the continual battle against adware/spyware and the like. It all went pretty smoothly, except my HP scanner is apparently unsupported, and I'm unable to access premium content through RealPlayer. Not being able to log in for premium content through RealPlayer is forcing the selection of Windows XP whenever the machine is started up. It might not seem to be a major issue, but at the moment it's one of the more frequently used apps on this machine.
Additionally, font rendering in Opera seems terrible, which is a shame as that has become our browser of choice. Mozilla does a much better job out of the box. I have not yet tackled the drivers for the ATI video card, along with support for the TV tuner, beyond idle googling.
When I'm really brave, I'll tackle the wireless network and internet connection sharing. *shudder*
If anyone has had any luck with RealPlayer premium content under Linux, please let me know! TBH, I think it's version 8 I grabbed, but I've since learnt there's a version 10. Maybe that'll make the difference, but I need to find an hour or so to try it!
that this is ./ that u posting! Hello?? we r trying/running linux here!
Just fyi command.com is a legacy application. The windows 2k shell is cmd.exe which is much better, it may not be bash but it has tab auto-complete and various other useful things.
I have used Linux as a second OS for ages but as it stands there are still are huge problems with my hardware.
My graphics card, when using the NVIDIA driver, behaves in a very strange manner on any distro (a Pny 5200), for some reason my system either freezes or refuses to allow any program to load sometimes - not all the time - if I log out and back into X. The nv driver doesn't work at all with this card, and causes the system to freeze in most distros (not all, it worked with Slack).
My soundcard (soundstorm) doesn't work with most distros (SUSE, Slack, Mandrake) and works with 2 speakers on some others (that use OSS, not ALSA), while it should, according to ALSA, have full support for 5.1 sound.
My network card sometimes works with distros (using Forcedeth) but when rebooted it can take 3-4 reboots before it works again.
I love Linux and the software but buying a new computer is out of the question, as this machine runs 100% perfectly with Windows (no crashes or speed issues) and I would like nothing more than to move to Linux, as I love the software and ethos, and don't play games.
This machine is now almost 4 years old (except the graphics card), and with it still incompatible in so many areas, I'm sure that I'm not the only user who cannot switch simply because hardware support does not allow me to.
I started *trying* to use Linux as a desktop 3 years ago. Couldn't do it, until just under 2 years ago. Mozilla 1.1 was quite usable, OO.org was usable, UT performed better than on Windows, My HP OfficeJet works (I don't fax from a my PC), camera works, wireless keyboard mouse works, and UPS USB monitoring works. I can browse the web, write documents, create spreadsheets, play the only game to ever hold my attention for more than a month, organise my photo's, scan, print, and all this without searching for drivers or even rebooting once during the whole installation and configuration phase.
Granted, I'm a geek, one that get's paid for it too. I like working with PC's, hardware and software. Dropping to a command line isn't something I loath, I have at least one open all the time. Can I use Linux, and I mean do any of my desktop tasks, without the command line? Yes, I can now, but not 2 years ago.
Why was I so anxious to use Linux as my desktop? Do I hate Microsoft? Do I like to "tinker" with my PC all day?
I'll tell you. When I had Windows installed, I tinkered with my PC all the time. Usualy trying to just make it do what I wanted it to do. I found myself more and more frustrated at my PC. At the same time, I had a co-located server running linux, and realized that when I wanted my server to do something I could just make it work. I needed this on my desktop PC, something that I could just make work, no matter what it was. I loved Linux on the server so I tried it on the desktop, several times, and when that last time came I keep a dual boot. Months went by and I hadn't booted to windows. And I liked it!
almost 2 years later here I am, running Linux desktops at home and at work. At work though I still have Win2k in a VMWare because there are some things I have to support that just aren't going to work in Linux, probably ever. At home I also run windows on my laptop, Linux isn't quite there yet, APCI just isn't standard enough or something, it just doens't work right.
Is Linux for everyone? no. Mostly because some people don't like change. Linux is for those that are frustrated and want something new but can't afford a Mac (and I tried a mac too, pre-OSX though, didn't like that either). Linux is for those just entering the PC market. Linux is also for smart poeple. Example: The first time my girlfriend spend the night she got up in the morning, checked her email, didn't have any problems using linux for the first time, and didn't even say anything about the PC being different. She didn't know it was Linux and didn't care. She's used it to write, and print, papers for her masters degree, all her internet needs, likes GAIM better than even AOL's AIM, and all with little or no instruction from me. To be fair, her Mom is a MacHead so she used mac's for a long time before using Windows at school. Now that she knows it's Linux she doesn't expect it be just like Windows, she knows Mac and Windows are different, Linux being different was no suprize.
Does your PC frustrate you? Willing to forget most of what you know about a PC and start over? Try Linux! Just like getting a new job, or going on a diet, or starting a new excercise plan, or anything that's supposed to be "better", you will have to make some changes. But Linux is more flexible and willing to do things the way you want, but you're going to have to find new programs to replace those Windows favorites.
It's been worth it, if for nothing other than to keep what sanity my kids let me have.
- Disclaimer: Information in this post deemed reliable but not guaranteed.
Linkie. There are no legal issues involved as far as I know.
definatley not a linux problem! :-)
is there a web page that shows ALL the windows programs that can, or cannot run using Wine on Linux?
I love Linux, I use Linux and ultimately would like to see it more widespread.
But premature roll-out would be a Bad Thing.
The Linux community enjoys a better reputation for security, robustness, etc. due in no small part because the current user base is more knowledgeable technically.
Recently, I was listening to a computer help radio call-in show that gave me an idea of what you have out there in the retail marketplace. I swear that anyone with a network connection should be required to get a Network User's License just like a Driver's License, with mandatory testing, and more stringent testing depending on the speed of the connection.
User:"Yeah, I'm thinking of selling my old computer and I'd like to remove all the personal files from it before I sell it. What do I need to do?"
Tech1:"What operating system are you running?"
User:[pause...2...3...4]
Tech1:"Are you running Windows 98, XP...?"
User:[pause...2...3...4]..uhhh...we're running AOL....?"
Tech1:"Why don't you just bring into the shop? We can take care of it for you for a reasonable amount."
"Provided by the management for your protection."
Every time I've tried Linux I've done a dual boot with Windows. Kind of like going swimming in cold water toes first.
However, there would always come a point where I couldn't do something I needed to do, I'd get frustrated, and simply boot in to Windows to do it rather than figure it out in Linux. After a while of booting back and forth I'd find it easier to just stay in Windows and I'd remove Linux.
I'm wondering if it wouldn't be better in the long run to just jump in and tough it out and do a clean install of Linux without any Windows as a backup. That'd force me to learn because I'd have nothing to fall back on.
What's Linux users' experience in switching? Did you take the easy way and dual boot or did you throw caution to the wind and just make the switch?
If someone says he and his monkey have nothing to hide, they almost certainly do.
You don't get to call PSS just because you bought a license. You pay about as much per incident as for the license. Dunno how much they charge for Developer Support. You can pay people to support Linux. Do your own Googling, but I'll give you a hint: IBM. Novell. Hello....?
There is absolutely no difference between Windows Update and the Knowledge Base and the docs available for Linux, 24/7. Except that the Linux docs are arguably better. I haven't seen a Linux doc advise me to disable the firewall as a workaround.
Your car analogy supports the opposite of your conclusion - if you have to work to get a car/Linux, you'll still have it in 5 years.
The logic of your sig is flawed.
People will do one of two things with their money: spend it, or invest it. Either of those things is good for the economy.
If the government taxes your money away from you, it will also spend it. The difference is, private individuals tend to spend money far more efficiently than government. Private spending is a much bigger economic stimulus than government spending.
For example, a private individual, given $1500 to dispose of, will tend to do something like this:
*Buy a 2.8 GHz PC on eBay for $400. *Spend $60 on the iTunes music store. *Buy $80 worth of stocks. *Buy $200 worth of food. *Make a $350 payment on his auto loan. *Buy $20 worth of miscellaneous stuff at his neighbor's garage sale. *Give $40 to a homeless shelter. *Buy his family a $70 meal at Olive Garden. *Put aside $280 towards his next mortgage payment.
The government, given the same $1500 to spend, tends to do something like this:
*Buy a 2.8 GHz PC off the GSA schedule for $1500.
Dontcha see how the more efficient private spending has a much greater economic "multiplier" than government spending? When you're watching your dollars as only private individuals tend to do, you can obtain the same functionality (a 2.8 GHz PC, in this example) for much less than the government can, then use the money that's left over to buy a lot of other stuff.
If you think that spending $1500 is better for the economy than spending $400 and obtaining the same functionality, take your reasoning to even greater extremes and you'll soon see how it's flawed. Why, it would be better still if the government paid $6000 for every PC it bought. Or $12,000. Or $24,000! Ooh, the economy would really take off if the government spent $48,000 for each PC!!
Sorry. That kind of inefficiency totally wastes society's capital, which is wholly created by the private sector. Government never creates wealth -- although a minimally intrusive goverment can optimize the rate at which the private sector creates wealth.
One time I bought a set of cell phones for my Air Force squadron. I started questioning the saleperson's recommendations, asking if a less expensive model wouldn't meet our needs just as well. The salesperson, who was used to dealing with government customers, looked at me as though I had three heads.
Such is the way government spends your money, folks!
That that is is that that that that is not is not.
OS 9 *did* have a command-line interface
I thought so too. Although I know almost nothing about it. I was a heavy Mac OS 9 user but I never used it. I think you accessed the CLI by pressing the Mac's "Programmer's switch" (?)
If anyone cares to chime in with more info, I'm interested in learning how the CLI worked in older Mac OSes.
That that is is that that that that is not is not.
Yeah, I put in the tags but then forgot to paste the URL... I tried to post a followup but of course you have to wait two minutes before you can post... and so I forgot as I got busy with other things.
Anyway, the product page is here and they have a more full-featured version as well it seems. I'm not really in the field directly but have done some GIS stuff before.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Linux support specializing in servers is available from Red Hat, though they'll support your Red Hat desktop installs, too. Flipside for Novell, through Ximian. Each offers one-stop shopping. The Linux kernel is open and depriced, so upgrades are required less often by good app designers, and free when necessary. Kernel upgrades are much easier than Windows upgrades, especially rollbacks. The result is a more cohesive target platform for developers than Windows.
Of course, the Windows "platform" is a vastly larger market. But the actual size is misleadingly small. Those "95% marketshare" numbers you see everywhere aren't all XP, of course. There's also 2004, 2000, ME, 98, and 95. Even within those Win32 "platforms", with their own incompatibilities at least as serious as between exclusive GNOME and KDE desktop installs, there are incompatibilities between 95 and 95A, 98 and 98SE, and others for each branded release, not to mention service packs and patches, all of which differences include incompatibilities. Then there's the many computers running in cheapo or lame-o offices, or maybe just happily complacent working boxes, which actually run 3.1, 3.11, "for Workgroups", and various versions of DOS. Then there's the half-dozen+ versions of CE and other "handheld" or embedded "Windows" versions floating around, with the same problems. Each of these older fragments of the "Microsoft platform" is smaller with each passing year, but they add up.
I haven't seen actual numbers, but I wouldn't be surprised if the largest fragment, probably Windows 2000 Pro SP2, has something like 40% of the market, while XP has another 30%, and 98 has 20%. While a similarly compatible Linux share might be 2%. Which is still small, but is only 1/20th the actual targetable Windows share, while the marketdroid numbers would have it 1/45th. If you talk about inexpensive, low-risk porting for compatibility, you can include Linux, *BSD, and other unix, including OSX. Now you're talking about 70% "Windows" vs. maybe 7% "*x", which is 1/10th. And if you break down those numbers by desktop vs. server, which an app deployer must do, for servers that Windows number is probably 35%, while the *x number might go to 15-20% (although of course the desktop numbers invert to marginalize Linux).
So there is a real race on here. Not surprisingly, that race is closer where purchase decisions favor the support and compatibility you're talking about. Not just because Linux is actually inherently a better platform in those respects, but because it's harder to spin the numbers to the professionals who buy servers on the basis of actual facts, than to unorganized, ill informed consumers who follow the momentum of "conventional wisdom" and saturation marketing.
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make install -not war
I checked TransGaming's database and quite a few of the games I play or will play are on low numbers (and one of them didn't register on WINE's database). If SC4: Rush Hour isn't fixed to at least a 3 in two months, I'm gonna be pissed off.