But is code visible to any but the programmer? Art seems to be the end product of the artist, and as such its the end work that is judged by others. Code to me is the tools used, the canvas the brushes, and the paint. But what would make it art is the resulting program, is the program as a whole pleasing? Does it fullfill the need you had for using it? Is it something you want to use/see again? What I put inside the program is the tool that determins the quality of the program, and as such the program could be art, or just another tool to get by with. I've made both, and to me there is a major difference between art and programs when you remove creativity. But add the creativity and programs can be art.
I think if you go beyond the "code" aspect, which only the programmers see, there is the art of the program itself. If a game looks good, runs well, and makes people happy then it would be a good game. The programmers succeded in thier job of creating a work that makes the target audience appreiciate their efforts. While I do agree code can be art, the total effect of the code what would be seen by everyone. Very well written code in a very poorly designed interface would not be well recieved by the inteded audience...the users.
I am a programmer, and I don't have a specific way of doing everything, each program has its own goals and concepts. There are dozens of ways of reaching the same goal most of the time. When a painter paints a picture of a person does it fail to be art because they made the skin color the color of skin? Or since the hair is brown and so many people have brown hair, and painting the hair has been done a thousand times it fails to be art?
For those people that think in terms of programming as being "just a science" they are the ones who create the mediocre software which is hardly used. Programing is more than a science, at least to those that are creating good programs that are used and liked by someone other than the programmer.
Well said, I've progressed from drawing to painting to music to programming. Although the tools change there is lots of creation involved in all of them.
I disagree with your concept. To start with if the abstract paint thrown at a canvas from across the room, or the childs crayon scribbles can be concidered art, why cannot anything that is crafted? Does garbage really deserve the clasification of art? What makes good art good? To me if there is some likability to it then to me it might be good, to others good art will be different. But there are certain works that most people will agree is good art. If I make a statment "Boris is a good artist" Most people would agree, some might disagree, but that statement would get a majority that would agree.
"is it nice to look at" or even "is it elegant."
I am wondering why a program must be ugly? Why can't a program look good and function correctly. I don't think Microsoft made their billions off of making it work right. They went for the "is it nice to look at" and "is it easy to use". So if you go by "does it work" to make people happy then it doesn't seem to be working since windows still dominates the desktop.
I write software for users, and the experience level of the users vary greatly from utter idiot to fairly intellegent. I put allot of effort and code into making it easy for the user to get the job done since they expect it to work to start with. But do I spend the extra time making it easy for the idiot to use otherwise I have to try and teach the idiot to be intellegent? I've found making the program easier and nicer looking pleases the idiot more. While the fairly intelegent would have no problem learning how to use the software, they also like it easy to use and learn.
Programming should be concidered art. Since if it is designed and coded correctly it will be very pleasing to more users. Programs that work but you need weeks to figure it out are not pleasing and are generally thrown away for something that is. One of my personal dislikes of quite a bit of linux software is that to learn it requires vast ammounts of time to figure it all out. Most of the programs lack in documentation beyond a readme file or a man page that was writtin as a reference for someone who already knows how to use it.
Programming requires more than just simple coding to be good. It requires lots of thought on what would someone besides myself want to do, and how would they want to do it? What would make it easier for the user to get the job done? Would one layout work better than another? If I change this little thing will it make it more clear the concept of what the program is doing? I don't like working for the computer, the computer should work for the user. Because it really all boils down to the fact that the users are the ones who determine what is great and what is not.
I see lots of very badly written software that companies pay lots of money for. The sad thing is that the programmers never see the users, or talk to them, or even realize they are there. They seem to think they are the maggots that cause them problems. Maybe if more programmers were to take the time and effort to make it a art work then we would have many more programs that are worth having and using.
well, when it comes to computers my parents are morons. My dad is quite intellegent when it comes to what he does, but he would not have the first clue about M$ charging per year except he wouldn't like it.
What is sad is that quite a few of the people who are clueless about computers are not really dumb, but when they try and talk about them they sound it. But overall I think you have a 10-1 ratio of total idiot to intellegent person when it comes down to computer illeterate. I know that I deal with allot of people who arent good at anything (including computers). Scarry.
This can only be good for the open software movement in the end.
I hope your are right. The thought of subscription based service scares me quite badly. I personally have no trust in most large corporations since they do what is good for their profits and not good for us.
Now let me give an example of what I forsee happening. M$ comes out with Pay Per Use (whatever time period) Windows. Now every so often you must have an internet connection or a phone line to keep you updated (or just to check you out and get any details they might need for marketing...ie history..stuff like that). Now after a year or so M$ decides its earnings are low, oh well, for a fix everyone gets their price per use jacked up. Now, not only are you paying more, but since they have such a hold on the moron population of the country that don't understand unix, they are releasing crappy os's to go with it. Buggy isn't a problem any more...M$ can patch it whenever they want...assuming they want to.
There are a few things I do see as subscription based software, and have no problem with it. Utilities that perform certain functions for you which requires some work on the companies part.
Honestly, people have been comparing software to cable tv. How is office like cnn? does office provide you with late breaking news...no. Does office change to show you the latest stock prices, give hints and some background...no. Well what does office provide? Word processor, Spreadsheet, Orginizer, Flat file Database, and Presentation software (Frontpage in v2000). So now what is it about any of these static programs that is so valuable that they deserve regular payment. In reality M$ has to do absolutly nothing once it is on my machine to make it go. My computer runs the program, stores the program and resulting data, and provides all the needed things for the program to run. M$ designed and sells it, but why would I myself want to lease something that M$ only really needs to do is the bug fixes. Paying for tv is paying for a continual set of changing entertainment. Office doesn't come close to providing half what my cable tv does.
I wouldn't mind an option on games to be able to pay a smaller fee to play them for a couple months and then not again. But I would still want the option to pay a higher price for the "run forever" version.
I think too many people have grown too complacent with big business running our lives. Trust them and we will eventually be reduced to mindless slaves.
Re:Doesn't look that cofortable
on
License to Sit
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· Score: 1
You would expect it, but so far I haven't been seeing it...hehe
I never said I put the drive in...I was usually the one removing the drive to replace it. Actually quite a few were from gateway.
Re:Chairs and MS Products have something in common
on
License to Sit
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· Score: 2
you do realize the reason M$ will never go away...there are too many asses out there and they are breading like rabbits...I'm still waiting for the AOL OS, the OS for the completely mindless. Not only does it install itself it takes care of all your needs and you get the first 600 hours of use for free*.
* After the first 600 hours, which must be used in the first month, there is a $100 per month connection fee and a 10 cents a minute charge for having the pleasure of us wasting all your time downloading all the pretty pictures it displays for your mindless enjoyment.
Doesn't look that cofortable
on
License to Sit
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· Score: 1
You would think if you were going to license sitting you would at least provide a cofortable seat...
If you notice allot of hd manufactures have gone to air shipping only. Some states have very abusive ground people and I have seen bad baches of hd's due to the box they were in was quite abuse. They didn't put big dents in the box but you could tell it had been dropped on many occasions.
do they use some other sort of method to make them tough?
And it has been my experience in the military that most military specific parts are built for reliablily not speed. While allot of stuff breaks pretty regularly (at least most of the stuff I delt with) the specs for it are much higher than the civilian world.
I would suspect that the drive moter is larger than a standard hd. The components on the drive probably are rated for higher power levels than would ever go through it. Sturdier drive arm with more internal parts to help prevent crashes from impact...might even park the drive head(s) regularly when not in use. Basicly things not really needed for normal people.
Also I bet the commercial versions are much faster than the military version.
Western digital was the best right up to the point they started making 1.6G hd's. After that they changed their manufacturing and they had a very high failure rate. During this time I was building new computer for a small company part time, and its a pain when half the wd drives we put in ended up going back in less than a month. From there we started looking at maxtor and quanum.
If you look at the low end wd drives they have a strip of tape around the outside of the drive that seals it from dust. I've pulled out allot of these drives where the tape was scrapped partway off just from being inserted in the drive bay. Basicly it is one of the worst hd designs I've seen.
Western digital lost thier reliablilty a long time ago. Basicly wester digital is cheap...in price and quality. You can disagree, but I've had 2 bad maxtor drives, 5 bad wd drives, and 3 bad quantum drives (2 of the quantums were over 3 years old and are still under warrenty). I stopped using wd after having one die hours after getting all my information on it.
Oh, and although I like IBM the only problem with thier hd's are that western digital manufatcures them.
Well, Just last night having one of the hd's kick the bucket, I would like to see more reliable storage devices. Its a shame that solid state devices are still so expensive, I'll be curious to see how fast the 10 tera byte credit card sized device is. And whether it will be as cheap as they say.
Reliablility in hardware doesn't seem to be as high of a priority with allot of these companies lately. Its nice to get things cheap but loosing a large hd (whether its backed up or not) is a pain. Its good to see someone thinking about reliability again.
Virii cost money, they cost time, and the immature people who write them should spend a little more time trying to develop decent software rather than being their own personal definition of "clever".
Just a thought here. But doesn't it seem odd that ever 6 months to a year there is a really big email style virus that hits a large majority of the "not so bright" people out there?
Now most of these viruses don't do allot of damage like the good old viruses that ate the hd as fast as possible. But from what I've seen there is one cost I haven't seen mentiond yet...the virus checker. Ok they aren't teribly expensive, but most people who get these viruses and lack an IT Dept go buy the latest virus checker to fix the problem. Seems like the companies that make virus checkers are quite happy whenever there is a big virus that gets into all the "dense" peoples computers.
Which brings me to the thought of "what if the virus checker companies made and distributed the virus?". Good for sales, keeps them in business, and keeps the fear alive. But since I don't know anyone working for any of these companies I couldn't give any proof. But it still seems suspitious.
It would seem to me that a company that can't seem to produce a good product and looses money on the products they do make and turn to stealing it from other companies by questionable practices doesn't deserve to get anything.
Basicly the way I see it is that they want to get paid for something they don't even make. And the end result of that is higher memory prices for all of us so Rambus can stay in the business of screwing us all.
Regardless of how many good ideas they come up with, the fact remains they knew they were trying to set it up so they could make money off all memory that was sold. That ranks them right up their with the music industry making money off all the artists.
the phone company has been trying every year since the modem first came out. Of course my thoughts on this are, if I have to pay a tax on phone line for using data over it, it should be perfect, always up and without flaw always. If I must pay for doing something they do nothing extra for, then they should do extra to justify my paying.
Yes I know it will never happen, but what the hell, I could bitch.
well, lets see...most virus checkers call their virus definition files a database...hence a table of viruses and how to identify them. Now last I recall inserting and updating databases have been happening for many many years. And yes this even happens remotely over the internet, or TCP/IP which could be concidered the same thing.
So it seems to me they are pattening sycronizing a database. Won't hold.
i wouldnt be surprised if the FBI made a raid on members of this project
Not that this will have any bearing on reality. But if the FBI did raid someone for using this system I almost be that would be the best thing for the project. Concidering the people raided would be paying customers of the phone company. Since there is nothing being done wrong there shouldn't be anything that could be done about it.
No, I don't believe you would want to. Now me on the other hand, I am seriously concidering getting rid of the high speed access and go back to the good old days of waiting forever. Watching the little icon too see if anything was moving or it was just a really big web page while wishing I had an external modem so I could watch the led's blink. My the good old days. Yes it would be so easy to just go back to the old slow days.
Slap - Ok, now that I've come back to my senses, I'll just keep the high speed access...it has blinking lights.
I think that the majority of routers like this on the market actually RUN linux. The only difference is that they don't publicize the fact
That makes sense, since once someone knows someone will try (and probably succeed) at hacking it. If I was stuck using dialup (nightmare) it would be a nice solution for the multiple computers in my house.
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But is code visible to any but the programmer? Art seems to be the end product of the artist, and as such its the end work that is judged by others. Code to me is the tools used, the canvas the brushes, and the paint. But what would make it art is the resulting program, is the program as a whole pleasing? Does it fullfill the need you had for using it? Is it something you want to use/see again? What I put inside the program is the tool that determins the quality of the program, and as such the program could be art, or just another tool to get by with. I've made both, and to me there is a major difference between art and programs when you remove creativity. But add the creativity and programs can be art.
I think if you go beyond the "code" aspect, which only the programmers see, there is the art of the program itself. If a game looks good, runs well, and makes people happy then it would be a good game. The programmers succeded in thier job of creating a work that makes the target audience appreiciate their efforts. While I do agree code can be art, the total effect of the code what would be seen by everyone. Very well written code in a very poorly designed interface would not be well recieved by the inteded audience...the users.
I am a programmer, and I don't have a specific way of doing everything, each program has its own goals and concepts. There are dozens of ways of reaching the same goal most of the time. When a painter paints a picture of a person does it fail to be art because they made the skin color the color of skin? Or since the hair is brown and so many people have brown hair, and painting the hair has been done a thousand times it fails to be art?
For those people that think in terms of programming as being "just a science" they are the ones who create the mediocre software which is hardly used. Programing is more than a science, at least to those that are creating good programs that are used and liked by someone other than the programmer.
define art specifically as that which is _not_ functionally useful, or at least objects for which function is of secondary value.
Does this make Windows art?
Well said, I've progressed from drawing to painting to music to programming. Although the tools change there is lots of creation involved in all of them.
I disagree with your concept. To start with if the abstract paint thrown at a canvas from across the room, or the childs crayon scribbles can be concidered art, why cannot anything that is crafted? Does garbage really deserve the clasification of art? What makes good art good? To me if there is some likability to it then to me it might be good, to others good art will be different. But there are certain works that most people will agree is good art. If I make a statment "Boris is a good artist" Most people would agree, some might disagree, but that statement would get a majority that would agree.
"is it nice to look at" or even "is it elegant."
I am wondering why a program must be ugly? Why can't a program look good and function correctly. I don't think Microsoft made their billions off of making it work right. They went for the "is it nice to look at" and "is it easy to use". So if you go by "does it work" to make people happy then it doesn't seem to be working since windows still dominates the desktop.
I write software for users, and the experience level of the users vary greatly from utter idiot to fairly intellegent. I put allot of effort and code into making it easy for the user to get the job done since they expect it to work to start with. But do I spend the extra time making it easy for the idiot to use otherwise I have to try and teach the idiot to be intellegent? I've found making the program easier and nicer looking pleases the idiot more. While the fairly intelegent would have no problem learning how to use the software, they also like it easy to use and learn.
Programming should be concidered art. Since if it is designed and coded correctly it will be very pleasing to more users. Programs that work but you need weeks to figure it out are not pleasing and are generally thrown away for something that is. One of my personal dislikes of quite a bit of linux software is that to learn it requires vast ammounts of time to figure it all out. Most of the programs lack in documentation beyond a readme file or a man page that was writtin as a reference for someone who already knows how to use it.
Programming requires more than just simple coding to be good. It requires lots of thought on what would someone besides myself want to do, and how would they want to do it? What would make it easier for the user to get the job done? Would one layout work better than another? If I change this little thing will it make it more clear the concept of what the program is doing? I don't like working for the computer, the computer should work for the user. Because it really all boils down to the fact that the users are the ones who determine what is great and what is not.
I see lots of very badly written software that companies pay lots of money for. The sad thing is that the programmers never see the users, or talk to them, or even realize they are there. They seem to think they are the maggots that cause them problems. Maybe if more programmers were to take the time and effort to make it a art work then we would have many more programs that are worth having and using.
well, when it comes to computers my parents are morons. My dad is quite intellegent when it comes to what he does, but he would not have the first clue about M$ charging per year except he wouldn't like it.
What is sad is that quite a few of the people who are clueless about computers are not really dumb, but when they try and talk about them they sound it. But overall I think you have a 10-1 ratio of total idiot to intellegent person when it comes down to computer illeterate. I know that I deal with allot of people who arent good at anything (including computers). Scarry.
This can only be good for the open software movement in the end.
I hope your are right. The thought of subscription based service scares me quite badly. I personally have no trust in most large corporations since they do what is good for their profits and not good for us.
Now let me give an example of what I forsee happening. M$ comes out with Pay Per Use (whatever time period) Windows. Now every so often you must have an internet connection or a phone line to keep you updated (or just to check you out and get any details they might need for marketing...ie history..stuff like that). Now after a year or so M$ decides its earnings are low, oh well, for a fix everyone gets their price per use jacked up. Now, not only are you paying more, but since they have such a hold on the moron population of the country that don't understand unix, they are releasing crappy os's to go with it. Buggy isn't a problem any more...M$ can patch it whenever they want...assuming they want to.
There are a few things I do see as subscription based software, and have no problem with it. Utilities that perform certain functions for you which requires some work on the companies part.
Honestly, people have been comparing software to cable tv. How is office like cnn? does office provide you with late breaking news...no. Does office change to show you the latest stock prices, give hints and some background...no. Well what does office provide? Word processor, Spreadsheet, Orginizer, Flat file Database, and Presentation software (Frontpage in v2000). So now what is it about any of these static programs that is so valuable that they deserve regular payment. In reality M$ has to do absolutly nothing once it is on my machine to make it go. My computer runs the program, stores the program and resulting data, and provides all the needed things for the program to run. M$ designed and sells it, but why would I myself want to lease something that M$ only really needs to do is the bug fixes. Paying for tv is paying for a continual set of changing entertainment. Office doesn't come close to providing half what my cable tv does.
I wouldn't mind an option on games to be able to pay a smaller fee to play them for a couple months and then not again. But I would still want the option to pay a higher price for the "run forever" version.
I think too many people have grown too complacent with big business running our lives. Trust them and we will eventually be reduced to mindless slaves.
You would expect it, but so far I haven't been seeing it...hehe
I never said I put the drive in...I was usually the one removing the drive to replace it. Actually quite a few were from gateway.
you do realize the reason M$ will never go away...there are too many asses out there and they are breading like rabbits...I'm still waiting for the AOL OS, the OS for the completely mindless. Not only does it install itself it takes care of all your needs and you get the first 600 hours of use for free*.
* After the first 600 hours, which must be used in the first month, there is a $100 per month connection fee and a 10 cents a minute charge for having the pleasure of us wasting all your time downloading all the pretty pictures it displays for your mindless enjoyment.
You would think if you were going to license sitting you would at least provide a cofortable seat...
I've had both....the usual one is the armiture failer...clunk...clunk...clunk...cry...
Solid state drives are the quietest, they really don't make any noise (fan noise) but the cost is ridiculouse.
If you notice allot of hd manufactures have gone to air shipping only. Some states have very abusive ground people and I have seen bad baches of hd's due to the box they were in was quite abuse. They didn't put big dents in the box but you could tell it had been dropped on many occasions.
do they use some other sort of method to make them tough?
And it has been my experience in the military that most military specific parts are built for reliablily not speed. While allot of stuff breaks pretty regularly (at least most of the stuff I delt with) the specs for it are much higher than the civilian world.
I would suspect that the drive moter is larger than a standard hd. The components on the drive probably are rated for higher power levels than would ever go through it. Sturdier drive arm with more internal parts to help prevent crashes from impact...might even park the drive head(s) regularly when not in use. Basicly things not really needed for normal people.
Also I bet the commercial versions are much faster than the military version.
Western digital was the best right up to the point they started making 1.6G hd's. After that they changed their manufacturing and they had a very high failure rate. During this time I was building new computer for a small company part time, and its a pain when half the wd drives we put in ended up going back in less than a month. From there we started looking at maxtor and quanum.
If you look at the low end wd drives they have a strip of tape around the outside of the drive that seals it from dust. I've pulled out allot of these drives where the tape was scrapped partway off just from being inserted in the drive bay. Basicly it is one of the worst hd designs I've seen.
Western digital lost thier reliablilty a long time ago. Basicly wester digital is cheap...in price and quality. You can disagree, but I've had 2 bad maxtor drives, 5 bad wd drives, and 3 bad quantum drives (2 of the quantums were over 3 years old and are still under warrenty). I stopped using wd after having one die hours after getting all my information on it.
Oh, and although I like IBM the only problem with thier hd's are that western digital manufatcures them.
Well, Just last night having one of the hd's kick the bucket, I would like to see more reliable storage devices. Its a shame that solid state devices are still so expensive, I'll be curious to see how fast the 10 tera byte credit card sized device is. And whether it will be as cheap as they say.
Reliablility in hardware doesn't seem to be as high of a priority with allot of these companies lately. Its nice to get things cheap but loosing a large hd (whether its backed up or not) is a pain. Its good to see someone thinking about reliability again.
Virii cost money, they cost time, and the immature people who write them should spend a little more time trying to develop decent software rather than being their own personal definition of "clever".
Just a thought here. But doesn't it seem odd that ever 6 months to a year there is a really big email style virus that hits a large majority of the "not so bright" people out there?
Now most of these viruses don't do allot of damage like the good old viruses that ate the hd as fast as possible. But from what I've seen there is one cost I haven't seen mentiond yet...the virus checker. Ok they aren't teribly expensive, but most people who get these viruses and lack an IT Dept go buy the latest virus checker to fix the problem. Seems like the companies that make virus checkers are quite happy whenever there is a big virus that gets into all the "dense" peoples computers.
Which brings me to the thought of "what if the virus checker companies made and distributed the virus?". Good for sales, keeps them in business, and keeps the fear alive. But since I don't know anyone working for any of these companies I couldn't give any proof. But it still seems suspitious.
It would seem to me that a company that can't seem to produce a good product and looses money on the products they do make and turn to stealing it from other companies by questionable practices doesn't deserve to get anything.
Basicly the way I see it is that they want to get paid for something they don't even make. And the end result of that is higher memory prices for all of us so Rambus can stay in the business of screwing us all.
Regardless of how many good ideas they come up with, the fact remains they knew they were trying to set it up so they could make money off all memory that was sold. That ranks them right up their with the music industry making money off all the artists.
The whole thing reeks.
the phone company has been trying every year since the modem first came out. Of course my thoughts on this are, if I have to pay a tax on phone line for using data over it, it should be perfect, always up and without flaw always. If I must pay for doing something they do nothing extra for, then they should do extra to justify my paying.
Yes I know it will never happen, but what the hell, I could bitch.
well, lets see...most virus checkers call their virus definition files a database...hence a table of viruses and how to identify them. Now last I recall inserting and updating databases have been happening for many many years. And yes this even happens remotely over the internet, or TCP/IP which could be concidered the same thing.
So it seems to me they are pattening sycronizing a database. Won't hold.
i wouldnt be surprised if the FBI made a raid on members of this project
Not that this will have any bearing on reality. But if the FBI did raid someone for using this system I almost be that would be the best thing for the project. Concidering the people raided would be paying customers of the phone company. Since there is nothing being done wrong there shouldn't be anything that could be done about it.
Of course, nothing works quiet the way it should
No, I don't believe you would want to. Now me on the other hand, I am seriously concidering getting rid of the high speed access and go back to the good old days of waiting forever. Watching the little icon too see if anything was moving or it was just a really big web page while wishing I had an external modem so I could watch the led's blink. My the good old days. Yes it would be so easy to just go back to the old slow days.
Slap - Ok, now that I've come back to my senses, I'll just keep the high speed access...it has blinking lights.
I think that the majority of routers like this on the market actually RUN linux. The only difference is that they don't publicize the fact
That makes sense, since once someone knows someone will try (and probably succeed) at hacking it. If I was stuck using dialup (nightmare) it would be a nice solution for the multiple computers in my house.