What do you think of the Keep It Simple Stupid philosophy? Is it really as important as is often thought? Should it be done away with in deference to flashy schemes with all the bells, whistles, and eye-candy (like the Aqua interface in MOSX)? Or, should we go with something like the original NeXTSTEP interface (my personal favorite), with clean, sensible, elegant design?
More specifically, what do you think of the NeXTSTEP GUI in particular? Do you think it is still viable? If you have any problems with it, what should be changed?
I am chiefly interested in your answers because I intend to send them to the GNUstep mailing list as professional suggestions/opinions. Thank you!
I don't disagree with you; my real issue is what I perceive to be a readability/comprehension problem with C++. I think the syntax and visual arrangement of a language has a huge impact on quality by making it easier (or more difficult) to understand what's going on. Plus, I believe in K.I.S.S.
Seems to me its easier to evaluate the story presented by Sam, since you know what his bias is and can take it into account, than it is to evaluate the story by Ted.
While I understand your point--and in application to Bjarne Stroustrup, this makes perfect sense and is correct--the mark of good journalists is that you can't tell what their own views are by simply watching their presentation of events.
I know this is off-topic, and I apologize profusely...
The object syntax, while elegant, is borrowed wholesale from Smalltalk and therefore looks somewhat strange when mixed in with C syntax.
Personally, I find it much easier to read because of this. Perhaps it's just preference.
C++'s object syntax is definitely more consistent with its C origins.
Hmmm...I wonder if my preference is because I don't think traditional C syntax is very efficient for object oriented concepts.
Also, Obj-C relies heavily on "run-time magic," which Bjarne specifically sought to avoid in C++. This dependence can increase the elegance of your source code at the expense of performance.
As I understand things (and I may be wrong), the quality of ObjC compilers has risen to a point where messages are pretty close to regular C function calls. I have at least been told by "people who benchmark this stuff" that ObjC is on par with regular C now.
Part of what made Obj-C so pleasant to use on the NeXTstation was the rich object class library that NeXT developed.
I'll drink to that!
Java's JFC/Swing libs are certainly rich but somewhat strangely organized.
My dad is currently learning Swing and said that the book claims that it's related to NeXTSTEP. Perhaps I'll get the chance to take a look at it soon...
I acknowledge that it would be nice if companies could hire whole teams of superb programmers, but this (as you seem to realize) just isn't going to happen.
I have to say that even with good programmers, most problems arise from human error. This should tell us to write languages and develop tools that conform to human weaknesses rather than make humans jump through hoops for the compiler's sake. I think C++ sacrifices simplicity for performance to a degree that is no longer necessary--especially considering the modern optimizing compilers and cheap hardware we have now.
Macs have a really good interface that anybody with a brain can use, and you think they're bad????
The original NeXTSTEP GUI blows both the original MacOS interface and the Aqua interface out of the water. It's simple, and it's clean. Need I say more?
I think that ever since VA took over slashdot, the news has gone steadily downhill.
Not really--Katz has been around since before the VA deal. And there have been off-topic or silly articles even before Katz.
Who cares about a movie review? If I wanted a movie review I would go somewhere else, I want news for nerds, stuff that matters, what happened?
I don't mind them. Besides, I think you can filter them out if you like. We could cut out a whole lot of stuff if we wanted to, but I don't think we should. I think this place is not just a tech-news site; rather, it's a place where events (tech, political, social, cultural, religious, whatever) can be discussed from a geek viewpoint rather than the mainstream-society viewpoint that we get out of television networks, msn.com, and newspapers.
When is the book NOT better than the movie? Can anyone give some examples of movies that were better than the books?
Yes. Last of the Mohicans (1991, I think) was much better than the book. Also, I read Moby Dick and had to ask myself why someone didn't edit the thing. It's a good story, it's just that he tended to go off on tangents all the time that added nothing to the atmosphere or plot.
Actually, isn't the code signed over to the FSF? So, the code *is* owned by one entity--the FSF; only, they allow others to use it freely.
Also, I really think comparing GPL with any of the political or economic -isms is kind of going astray--it's code, not a government or economic system.
Just because it's impossible to survive in this world without property....
This is true--property is a part of this life. When people say things like, "property is theft," they represent themselves as being unaware of the realities of life. Others start to think the person who said it is a utopian;this is what makes the flashing light go off.
I do believe that the original story on Villiage Voice talks about trying (unsuccessfully) to get comment from the FBI and U.S. Attorney.
Re:Is this for real or just another publicity stun
on
FBI Shuts Down Website
·
· Score: 1
Especially when there is *no* attempt to get a comment from "them"
Upon reading the article, it said that neither the FBI nor the U.S. Attorney would comment. I took that to mean that Villiage Voice contacted them but they refused to make a comment. If this was a hoax, I think the FBI probably would have denied the truth of it. Also, upon looking at the FBI site (for contact information) they had something on their front page proudly talking about how they were hunting down all Y2k fear-mongerers to keep our country safe!
was there in small print that they can pull your site for whatever reason they like, or wasn't? If it wasn't, too bad for them. If it was, too bad for their clients.
True, but the real question is whether the FBI/U.S. Attorney has the power to intimidate either the client or the ISP.
I think that the "crying 'fire' in a crowded theater" is the classical example. But this is not *nearly* the same thing. No kidding. This is more like talking about fires in theatres. BTW, having read the description of Y2K: The Movie on NBC's site, I would have to say that their incredibly stupid movie is more offensive (by sheer cheesiness if nothing else) than this guy's movie.
I have yet to see a DOS or Windows package that *doesn't* have a README...and I've been using DOS since v2. And I have built and installed many a UNIX source-based package *without* looking at README or INSTALL. It's a formula, almost everything installs the same way. We just need to come up with a graphical formula. We can't get rid of source packages.
You nailed it. Many simply want to get their work (or play) done. How many of us would prefer Star Trek style transporters to cars? I sure would--I waste a lot of time driving from one end of town to another. The reason we have radios in cars is just to help it become a little more bearable.
While I use computers to do work, my main reason for using computers is that I love the structure, logic, and creativity that goes into the design of hardware and software. It's like a playground for the mind. Sadly, most people have no appreciation for this sort of thing. We have to face this and do something with it.
You cannot deny that its the easiest OS to use period! Eaiser than the Mac!
I do deny that it's the easiest OS to use! Ever seen (I'll even settle for 'heard of') NeXTSTEP? If I had to pick one OS and say that is was the best ever, it would be NeXTSTEP. Of course, I haven't used BeOS yet, but it seems to be much cooler than Windows also.
I haven't noticed anyone laughing at this MS employee. Mostly what I've seen is that Linux needs work in the ease-of-use area.
Notice that in Windows the application installs in one step. A double click, not a mount cd, change cd, gunzip, followed by a tar followed by a make install. Heck just look at that and tell me which you would preffer.
UNIX. So what if I can't just download binaries? At least I can run on more than just Intel.
Slashdot Mirror
More specifically, what do you think of the NeXTSTEP GUI in particular? Do you think it is still viable? If you have any problems with it, what should be changed?
I am chiefly interested in your answers because I intend to send them to the GNUstep mailing list as professional suggestions/opinions. Thank you!
Honestly, I much prefer ObjC syntax; I find both C++ and Java confusing and hard to read. Maybe this is just preference, I don't know.
I don't disagree with you; my real issue is what I perceive to be a readability/comprehension problem with C++. I think the syntax and visual arrangement of a language has a huge impact on quality by making it easier (or more difficult) to understand what's going on. Plus, I believe in K.I.S.S.
While I understand your point--and in application to Bjarne Stroustrup, this makes perfect sense and is correct--the mark of good journalists is that you can't tell what their own views are by simply watching their presentation of events.
I know this is off-topic, and I apologize profusely...
Personally, I find it much easier to read because of this. Perhaps it's just preference.
C++'s object syntax is definitely more consistent with its C origins.
Hmmm...I wonder if my preference is because I don't think traditional C syntax is very efficient for object oriented concepts.
Also, Obj-C relies heavily on "run-time magic," which Bjarne specifically sought to avoid in C++. This dependence can increase the elegance of your source code at the expense of performance.
As I understand things (and I may be wrong), the quality of ObjC compilers has risen to a point where messages are pretty close to regular C function calls. I have at least been told by "people who benchmark this stuff" that ObjC is on par with regular C now.
Part of what made Obj-C so pleasant to use on the NeXTstation was the rich object class library that NeXT developed.
I'll drink to that!
Java's JFC/Swing libs are certainly rich but somewhat strangely organized.
My dad is currently learning Swing and said that the book claims that it's related to NeXTSTEP. Perhaps I'll get the chance to take a look at it soon...
I have to say that even with good programmers, most problems arise from human error. This should tell us to write languages and develop tools that conform to human weaknesses rather than make humans jump through hoops for the compiler's sake. I think C++ sacrifices simplicity for performance to a degree that is no longer necessary--especially considering the modern optimizing compilers and cheap hardware we have now.
Hey! This isn't "News for Nerds"! What gives?
Happy 10k, Rob!
Considering my preference for NeXTSTEP, I consider this to be a plus...
And the lack of OpenStep APIs and hence feel.
GNUstep implements the AppKit and FoundationKit. It's not finished yet, but that's the goal...
No Display PDF technology.
No, but there is a Display-PostScript alternative.
Amen! Aqua is glitzy, but I think it's too overdone (like Enlightenment).
The original NeXTSTEP GUI blows both the original MacOS interface and the Aqua interface out of the water. It's simple, and it's clean. Need I say more?
Not really--Katz has been around since before the VA deal. And there have been off-topic or silly articles even before Katz.
Who cares about a movie review? If I wanted a movie review I would go somewhere else, I want news for nerds, stuff that matters, what happened?
I don't mind them. Besides, I think you can filter them out if you like. We could cut out a whole lot of stuff if we wanted to, but I don't think we should. I think this place is not just a tech-news site; rather, it's a place where events (tech, political, social, cultural, religious, whatever) can be discussed from a geek viewpoint rather than the mainstream-society viewpoint that we get out of television networks, msn.com, and newspapers.
Yes. Last of the Mohicans (1991, I think) was much better than the book. Also, I read Moby Dick and had to ask myself why someone didn't edit the thing. It's a good story, it's just that he tended to go off on tangents all the time that added nothing to the atmosphere or plot.
Also, I really think comparing GPL with any of the political or economic -isms is kind of going astray--it's code, not a government or economic system.
There's some now; XFree 4.0 will contain more complete support, IIRC. I think there's something about this in the FAQ.
This is true--property is a part of this life. When people say things like, "property is theft," they represent themselves as being unaware of the realities of life. Others start to think the person who said it is a utopian;this is what makes the flashing light go off.
You forgot the 10th amendment...the U.S. Central Government has usurped power that Constitutionally belongs to the states since 1861.
Granted. But it's enough to establish a (short-term) warming trend, regardless of determining the cause or long-term effects.
I do believe that the original story on Villiage Voice talks about trying (unsuccessfully) to get comment from the FBI and U.S. Attorney.
Upon reading the article, it said that neither the FBI nor the U.S. Attorney would comment. I took that to mean that Villiage Voice contacted them but they refused to make a comment. If this was a hoax, I think the FBI probably would have denied the truth of it. Also, upon looking at the FBI site (for contact information) they had something on their front page proudly talking about how they were hunting down all Y2k fear-mongerers to keep our country safe!
True, but the real question is whether the FBI/U.S. Attorney has the power to intimidate either the client or the ISP.
I think that the "crying 'fire' in a crowded theater" is the classical example. But this is not *nearly* the same thing. No kidding. This is more like talking about fires in theatres. BTW, having read the description of Y2K: The Movie on NBC's site, I would have to say that their incredibly stupid movie is more offensive (by sheer cheesiness if nothing else) than this guy's movie.
I have yet to see a DOS or Windows package that *doesn't* have a README...and I've been using DOS since v2. And I have built and installed many a UNIX source-based package *without* looking at README or INSTALL. It's a formula, almost everything installs the same way. We just need to come up with a graphical formula. We can't get rid of source packages.
While I use computers to do work, my main reason for using computers is that I love the structure, logic, and creativity that goes into the design of hardware and software. It's like a playground for the mind. Sadly, most people have no appreciation for this sort of thing. We have to face this and do something with it.
I do deny that it's the easiest OS to use! Ever seen (I'll even settle for 'heard of') NeXTSTEP? If I had to pick one OS and say that is was the best ever, it would be NeXTSTEP. Of course, I haven't used BeOS yet, but it seems to be much cooler than Windows also.
Notice that in Windows the application installs in one step. A double click, not a mount cd, change cd, gunzip, followed by a tar followed by a make install. Heck just look at that and tell me which you would preffer.
UNIX. So what if I can't just download binaries? At least I can run on more than just Intel.