And as the typical problem with people doing these studies, its not what happens during the span of hours/days/weeks between when you pump them full of carginogens and when you dissect them that the problem occurs.
Its the prolonged exposure over the course of 70 years of human lifespan that it starts to show a problem.
I can without any doubt garentee you that if you go suck a diesel exhaust from a tractor for a few hours, you won't be around to tell anyone you did it. I encourage you to do so and prove me wrong, the gene pool will appreciate it.
Why is it that the hick farmer growing my corn knows more about these things then the guy in a lab testing it for a living? Are you sure you aren't from Mythbusters or something?
Because diesel engines don't have a throttle there's
Not sure what diesel engines you've been dealing with, but I've never seen one without a throttle. Tractors most certainly do, changing gears is one methods of changing speeds of course, but the most certainly do have throttles in many if not all cases of engines aren't bottom of the barrel as cheap as it gets.
Even without a throttle they don't burn perfectly, ever. Its used to limit the air and fuel entering the combustion chamber. If done properly it simply results in less than the maximum amount entering the combustion chamber. With fuel injection engines it should not result in an improper ration of air to fuel, just less of both. The same is true to traditional carburetor engines, but due to the methods employed the ratio tends to never be optimal.
Diesel fuel contains polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons (PAHs) and some alkyl derivatives. Both groups of compounds may survive the combustion process. Between that and the soot, those are your reasons for not sucking the exhaust pipe of your tractor. Not the level of CO coming out. Diesel is dirty, CO is hardly the concern. You think they put oil based filters on the exhaust to catch CO? No. You think all that black you see pooring out of the engine under high load is CO? No.
Carbon monoxide is a serious threat when its inhaled in large quantities as it inhibits the bloods ability to carry oxygen, in smaller quantities its not a problem, the body deals with carbon monoxide in our atmosphere by simply replacing the cells that have been rendered useless by carbon monoxide.
Its not a toxin so much as an oxygen transfer inhibitor. More than slight difference. To much of it and you suffocate.
And the problem is the fact that 250k people commute over a bridge that spans that sort of distance, and then proceed to complain about pollution from traffic.
So you think that 2000 years of 'the universal solvent' running over it doesn't compare to some cars which are actually designed (to a small extent, its not like they drive tanks over it regularly) to be nice too it running over it for a few decades? The difference is, some things as shown in history were built to last, regardless of price. Modern bridges are not built under this concept. They are built to last a specific period of time as absolutely cheap as possible. This isn't really a bad thing, building a bridge to last a thousand years is rather silly in California, in 1000 years its doubtful the state will look anything like it does now. Plenty of bridges were built to last 50 years and by the time that 50 years comes along, they are barely used. It would have been a waste to design them to last a 1000 years, hell it may have cost not only more money to construct, but more money to deconstruct.
Then, there are those bridges that need to last longer, handle more load, and deal with things that weren't expected at design time. Until we can predict the future, its all just a guess.
I'm impressed these bridges last as long as they do as well, but I'm never surprised at a failure. The Minnesota failure didn't surprise me, as disturbing as it was. I'm more amazed by how few of these failures occur considering how many people just do the bare minimum they can get by with, from the construction workers, to contractors, to inspectors, to politicians. Not saying we shouldn't work harder to prevent failures, just that with all the variables involved, I'm impressed we do as well as we do. Our arrogance is even more amazing, the fact that we as a population are surprised, blown away in some cases. Far too many people think we control the world around us. There are a lot of really ignorant people in the world.
Yep something went wrong, thats pretty much accepted by any sane person. Maybe not the person you're replying to.
We are human. We are not all knowing. We can not predict the future. We can't even model our weather patterns for shit due, unless we can store a copy of our universe in a parallel dimension or something, we'll never be able to.
The wars are over. These are an occupation and has been for several years, regardless of what the politicians and news calls it.
If you go back and look at your history, you'll see pretty quickly that this is what happens during an occupation, things don't just magically get better afterwords, it takes years for people to move on.
There are a LOT of people who have been hurt, it doesn't matter if it was an accident, mistake or intentional, if you kill someones loved one, its VERY hard for them to shake your hand, hug and kiss you afterwords. Most people can never do it, I consider myself a rather logical person most of the time, but you kill one of my family members I've got a distinct feeling I'm going to resent you for the rest of my life, regardless of why. It doesn't matter if they had a gun to your head and they were about to pull the trigger, the 'there had to be another way' will remain, like it or not, logic can't always override emotion. Thats a good thing sometimes, and a bad thing sometimes.
You are right though, we are fighting an impossible war, as long as we handicap our warriors the way we are, we'll lose. We're killing our own soldiers.
Attacking Al-Qaeda directly is what we did. Afghanistan did exactly what you referred to in Tripoli. They protected and gave cover to those 'doing evil'. Even if all we did was take out the Taliban or Al-Qaeda in Afghanistan, the country wouldn't be any better off, they'd just have a new group of warlords in place. The same is true in Iraq. Just taking out Saddam would just change the warlord in charge of Iraq.
WWII was over 30 years before I was born. The occupation however, ended in my life time. These things don't end over night or in a year or 10, regardless of how quickly we forget.
Ethiopia? Somalia? Even the people living in the absolute WORST areas of America have nothing to bitch about compared to people who are actually suffering.
We can't throw all of these civilians to the wolves and fuck up their lives for years to come
Why not? Why am I responsible for their bad planning? We regularly throw people to the wolves because they live on the wrong side of the tracks. This is no different.
They can move, its really not hard. Its also not my responsibility to take care of those that are more than capable of taking care of themselves.
You are okay with punishing children to make them learn their lesson, but when they become adults we're supposed to bail them out? WTF kind of logic is that? At least kids have the excuse of ignorance and lack of experience. Its our job to teach them and make sure they aren't actually harmed. Its is our job to bail out idiot kids when it gets to a certain point, thats part of parenting. Its not our job to bail out idiot adults.
Let them suffer. Maybe they'll get the clue that living in an overcrowded city and driving ridiculous distances every day is a bad idea. Maybe they'll spread out a little more and work a little closer to home, thus lowering pollution generation far more than any hybrid or electric vehicle will do.
I'm not real sure how this is going to fuck up their lives for years. Having to move to find a job is rather common, interestingly enough, people used to do that by default. Civilization helped change that, farming allows for us to stay in smaller areas and do less roaming, but the reality of it is, people moved to find supplies long before we had cars and highways.
'Its Hard' is a cop out. Life is hard, get over it and stop expecting someone else to fix your problems.
My understanding is the welding isn't being blamed, but I'll be the first to admin I've not bothered to read more than this article about... however...
In the perfect world, more welders would always be added to speed up the process. But we do not live in a perfect world. You may live in a dream world, but thats not the one we live in.
I see, on a regular basis, 'trained and certified professionals' take shortcuts and break the rules. I know state road inspectors that will pass things that really are questionable in order to get a road open. I see the resulting road failures myself.
You can pretend that, as a welder, these guys are somehow immune to human nature, but that juts makes you nieve and disconnected from reality. Welders are people. People, ALL PEOPLE, are not immune from outside pressure.
Your friends may be good guys, that doesn't mean all welders are like your friends. Hell, as a hobbyist welder I'm assuming you don't work on bridges so you aren't even qualified to talk about what goes on welding bridges.
You are lashing out to defend what you perceive as your team, your boss, your cohorts. But you are no more informed on the issue than I am really. CNN doesn't count as informative when we're talking technical details of something like this, especially when interpreted by someone who starts off their message by 'I'm a hobbyist'.
I'm a hobbyist pilot too, but I'm fully freaking aware that I am not qualified to fly a large passenger jet into the hudson or even really comment on 'what went wrong' in the engines after the bird strike. I've been around pilots for a lot of my life, including ones that fly large aircraft. Still does not qualify me to do so, I have no delusions of such things.
Welding your sons go-kart together doesn't compare to building a bridge. Get some perspective and soda.
You realize that if you kill cancer cells they don't go away right? They don't magically disappear. They are handled just like any other dead cells in your body, which are rather common.
I love people who use tobacco smoke as an example. You inhaled more carcinogens from the car you drove to the airport than most smokers do with first hand smoke.
There is no emission of terahertz radiation by this system.
Bullshit.
They may be designed to be shielded and not emit anything, but anyone with any clue about RF knows that if your receiving, you've got an oscillator thats generating it, and shielding is never 100%
I'm not saying its a concern, but its a lie to say its not emitting anything.
TomTom doesn't use an external GPS, it uses an external antenna on the iPhone, which was trivial to build into the mounting bracket, which is what you are actually buying.
Navionics is rather craptastic and extremely limited compared to even the cheapest consumer grade nautical GPS/depth sounder system purchased at walmart for weekend bass fishing on the local lake. Navionics is a toy at best.
Skycharts does not even come close to ever being a glimmer in the eye of someone who uses a Garmin avionics unit. These units have double EVERYTHING, and sometimes triple. They are dual power, dual display, dual radio, dual buttons, have backup radios for the backup radios. Avionics require a level of reliability that no computer user has ever seen outside of a nuclear planet.
Please don't try to compare iPhone/WinCE apps to commercial navigation equipment. The OS isn't stable enough to even pass the initial checklists, let alone be certified to risk peoples lives with it. The GPS wouldn't qualify as reliable enough for the first generation of these devices from 15 years ago if you ganged 8 of them together in an attempt to get an accurate location.
They are fine for me tracking along in my car where my life doesn't depend on it cause I can pull over, get out of my car and not care. When you are in the air, our out of site of land, only an idiot would consider using a device like this for guidance. I may use my iPhone to mark a fishing hole on the local lake, but I'd never consider it better than dead reckoning based on visual reference, neither would any pilot or commercial fisherman. I'd use an iPhone for navigation if I was lost at sea with no functioning navigation equipment at all. And lets face it, my compass and sextant aren't going to break or have dead batteries any time soon. Of course by the time your commercial unit fails, you iPhone has already be drowned by the sea spray. In the air, you'd fall back to navigating off commercial radio stations in a worst case scenario, but the likely hood of a single radio failing in a dual radio setup even in the smallest of Cessnas is about a thousand times less than that of your iPhone is going to crash randomly.
If I was somewhere where I needed to use a GPS device I wouldn't want its battery being drained by cell phone functions blasting out at full power trying to reach a non-existent tower.
Me either, thats why I toggle the airplane mode bit, that disables radios if I'm concerned about battery life.
I bet my cell phone playing MP3s will outlast your stand alone cell phone and your stand alone GPS since you're obviously not buying decent equipment in the first place.
My cell phone will play MP3s for 24 hours straight, how long does yours last?
Obviously a GPL supporter. When you add restrictions, its no longer free.
'Free Market' sucks for everyone but the guy on top. Always has, always will. No one any lower down on the ladder than the very top WANTS a free market, they just don't realize it. You are a shining example of that.
You don't want free market, you want a controlled open market. Its a different beast entirely.
Slashdot Mirror
And as the typical problem with people doing these studies, its not what happens during the span of hours/days/weeks between when you pump them full of carginogens and when you dissect them that the problem occurs.
Its the prolonged exposure over the course of 70 years of human lifespan that it starts to show a problem.
I can without any doubt garentee you that if you go suck a diesel exhaust from a tractor for a few hours, you won't be around to tell anyone you did it. I encourage you to do so and prove me wrong, the gene pool will appreciate it.
Why is it that the hick farmer growing my corn knows more about these things then the guy in a lab testing it for a living? Are you sure you aren't from Mythbusters or something?
Not sure what diesel engines you've been dealing with, but I've never seen one without a throttle. Tractors most certainly do, changing gears is one methods of changing speeds of course, but the most certainly do have throttles in many if not all cases of engines aren't bottom of the barrel as cheap as it gets.
Even without a throttle they don't burn perfectly, ever. Its used to limit the air and fuel entering the combustion chamber. If done properly it simply results in less than the maximum amount entering the combustion chamber. With fuel injection engines it should not result in an improper ration of air to fuel, just less of both. The same is true to traditional carburetor engines, but due to the methods employed the ratio tends to never be optimal.
Diesel fuel contains polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons (PAHs) and some alkyl derivatives. Both groups of compounds may survive the combustion process. Between that and the soot, those are your reasons for not sucking the exhaust pipe of your tractor. Not the level of CO coming out. Diesel is dirty, CO is hardly the concern. You think they put oil based filters on the exhaust to catch CO? No. You think all that black you see pooring out of the engine under high load is CO? No.
Carbon monoxide is a serious threat when its inhaled in large quantities as it inhibits the bloods ability to carry oxygen, in smaller quantities its not a problem, the body deals with carbon monoxide in our atmosphere by simply replacing the cells that have been rendered useless by carbon monoxide.
Its not a toxin so much as an oxygen transfer inhibitor. More than slight difference. To much of it and you suffocate.
And the problem is the fact that 250k people commute over a bridge that spans that sort of distance, and then proceed to complain about pollution from traffic.
Dude, what the hell are you doing?! Logic and common sense have no place on slashdot.
So you think that 2000 years of 'the universal solvent' running over it doesn't compare to some cars which are actually designed (to a small extent, its not like they drive tanks over it regularly) to be nice too it running over it for a few decades? The difference is, some things as shown in history were built to last, regardless of price. Modern bridges are not built under this concept. They are built to last a specific period of time as absolutely cheap as possible. This isn't really a bad thing, building a bridge to last a thousand years is rather silly in California, in 1000 years its doubtful the state will look anything like it does now. Plenty of bridges were built to last 50 years and by the time that 50 years comes along, they are barely used. It would have been a waste to design them to last a 1000 years, hell it may have cost not only more money to construct, but more money to deconstruct.
Then, there are those bridges that need to last longer, handle more load, and deal with things that weren't expected at design time. Until we can predict the future, its all just a guess.
I'm impressed these bridges last as long as they do as well, but I'm never surprised at a failure. The Minnesota failure didn't surprise me, as disturbing as it was. I'm more amazed by how few of these failures occur considering how many people just do the bare minimum they can get by with, from the construction workers, to contractors, to inspectors, to politicians. Not saying we shouldn't work harder to prevent failures, just that with all the variables involved, I'm impressed we do as well as we do. Our arrogance is even more amazing, the fact that we as a population are surprised, blown away in some cases. Far too many people think we control the world around us. There are a lot of really ignorant people in the world.
Yep something went wrong, thats pretty much accepted by any sane person. Maybe not the person you're replying to.
We are human. We are not all knowing. We can not predict the future. We can't even model our weather patterns for shit due, unless we can store a copy of our universe in a parallel dimension or something, we'll never be able to.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_aqueduct
The wars are over. These are an occupation and has been for several years, regardless of what the politicians and news calls it.
If you go back and look at your history, you'll see pretty quickly that this is what happens during an occupation, things don't just magically get better afterwords, it takes years for people to move on.
There are a LOT of people who have been hurt, it doesn't matter if it was an accident, mistake or intentional, if you kill someones loved one, its VERY hard for them to shake your hand, hug and kiss you afterwords. Most people can never do it, I consider myself a rather logical person most of the time, but you kill one of my family members I've got a distinct feeling I'm going to resent you for the rest of my life, regardless of why. It doesn't matter if they had a gun to your head and they were about to pull the trigger, the 'there had to be another way' will remain, like it or not, logic can't always override emotion. Thats a good thing sometimes, and a bad thing sometimes.
You are right though, we are fighting an impossible war, as long as we handicap our warriors the way we are, we'll lose. We're killing our own soldiers.
Attacking Al-Qaeda directly is what we did. Afghanistan did exactly what you referred to in Tripoli. They protected and gave cover to those 'doing evil'. Even if all we did was take out the Taliban or Al-Qaeda in Afghanistan, the country wouldn't be any better off, they'd just have a new group of warlords in place. The same is true in Iraq. Just taking out Saddam would just change the warlord in charge of Iraq.
WWII was over 30 years before I was born. The occupation however, ended in my life time. These things don't end over night or in a year or 10, regardless of how quickly we forget.
Compared to what?
Ethiopia? Somalia? Even the people living in the absolute WORST areas of America have nothing to bitch about compared to people who are actually suffering.
Why not? Why am I responsible for their bad planning? We regularly throw people to the wolves because they live on the wrong side of the tracks. This is no different.
They can move, its really not hard. Its also not my responsibility to take care of those that are more than capable of taking care of themselves.
You are okay with punishing children to make them learn their lesson, but when they become adults we're supposed to bail them out? WTF kind of logic is that? At least kids have the excuse of ignorance and lack of experience. Its our job to teach them and make sure they aren't actually harmed. Its is our job to bail out idiot kids when it gets to a certain point, thats part of parenting. Its not our job to bail out idiot adults.
Let them suffer. Maybe they'll get the clue that living in an overcrowded city and driving ridiculous distances every day is a bad idea. Maybe they'll spread out a little more and work a little closer to home, thus lowering pollution generation far more than any hybrid or electric vehicle will do.
I'm not real sure how this is going to fuck up their lives for years. Having to move to find a job is rather common, interestingly enough, people used to do that by default. Civilization helped change that, farming allows for us to stay in smaller areas and do less roaming, but the reality of it is, people moved to find supplies long before we had cars and highways.
'Its Hard' is a cop out. Life is hard, get over it and stop expecting someone else to fix your problems.
My understanding is the welding isn't being blamed, but I'll be the first to admin I've not bothered to read more than this article about ... however ...
In the perfect world, more welders would always be added to speed up the process. But we do not live in a perfect world. You may live in a dream world, but thats not the one we live in.
I see, on a regular basis, 'trained and certified professionals' take shortcuts and break the rules. I know state road inspectors that will pass things that really are questionable in order to get a road open. I see the resulting road failures myself.
You can pretend that, as a welder, these guys are somehow immune to human nature, but that juts makes you nieve and disconnected from reality. Welders are people. People, ALL PEOPLE, are not immune from outside pressure.
Your friends may be good guys, that doesn't mean all welders are like your friends. Hell, as a hobbyist welder I'm assuming you don't work on bridges so you aren't even qualified to talk about what goes on welding bridges.
You are lashing out to defend what you perceive as your team, your boss, your cohorts. But you are no more informed on the issue than I am really. CNN doesn't count as informative when we're talking technical details of something like this, especially when interpreted by someone who starts off their message by 'I'm a hobbyist'.
I'm a hobbyist pilot too, but I'm fully freaking aware that I am not qualified to fly a large passenger jet into the hudson or even really comment on 'what went wrong' in the engines after the bird strike. I've been around pilots for a lot of my life, including ones that fly large aircraft. Still does not qualify me to do so, I have no delusions of such things.
Welding your sons go-kart together doesn't compare to building a bridge. Get some perspective and soda.
Going out of support ... in 5 years ...
You realize that if you kill cancer cells they don't go away right? They don't magically disappear. They are handled just like any other dead cells in your body, which are rather common.
I love people who use tobacco smoke as an example. You inhaled more carcinogens from the car you drove to the airport than most smokers do with first hand smoke.
Really? Thats never happened to me, ever. I guess you appear weak and stupid?
Bullshit.
They may be designed to be shielded and not emit anything, but anyone with any clue about RF knows that if your receiving, you've got an oscillator thats generating it, and shielding is never 100%
I'm not saying its a concern, but its a lie to say its not emitting anything.
You could always do the intelligent thing and ... you know ... take them out before hand ... naa, that'd be too hard.
Tell your friend she was retarded for changing the default setting, which doesn't allow international data roaming.
Whoosh ...
TomTom doesn't use an external GPS, it uses an external antenna on the iPhone, which was trivial to build into the mounting bracket, which is what you are actually buying.
DeLorme is the ghetto of the GPS world.
You are evil, you could kill some one driving while talking on the phone.
I do it too.
I am almost as likely to kill someone while not talking on the phone though, so maybe my example isn't the best.
Navionics is rather craptastic and extremely limited compared to even the cheapest consumer grade nautical GPS/depth sounder system purchased at walmart for weekend bass fishing on the local lake. Navionics is a toy at best.
Skycharts does not even come close to ever being a glimmer in the eye of someone who uses a Garmin avionics unit. These units have double EVERYTHING, and sometimes triple. They are dual power, dual display, dual radio, dual buttons, have backup radios for the backup radios. Avionics require a level of reliability that no computer user has ever seen outside of a nuclear planet.
Please don't try to compare iPhone/WinCE apps to commercial navigation equipment. The OS isn't stable enough to even pass the initial checklists, let alone be certified to risk peoples lives with it. The GPS wouldn't qualify as reliable enough for the first generation of these devices from 15 years ago if you ganged 8 of them together in an attempt to get an accurate location.
They are fine for me tracking along in my car where my life doesn't depend on it cause I can pull over, get out of my car and not care. When you are in the air, our out of site of land, only an idiot would consider using a device like this for guidance. I may use my iPhone to mark a fishing hole on the local lake, but I'd never consider it better than dead reckoning based on visual reference, neither would any pilot or commercial fisherman. I'd use an iPhone for navigation if I was lost at sea with no functioning navigation equipment at all. And lets face it, my compass and sextant aren't going to break or have dead batteries any time soon. Of course by the time your commercial unit fails, you iPhone has already be drowned by the sea spray. In the air, you'd fall back to navigating off commercial radio stations in a worst case scenario, but the likely hood of a single radio failing in a dual radio setup even in the smallest of Cessnas is about a thousand times less than that of your iPhone is going to crash randomly.
Me either, thats why I toggle the airplane mode bit, that disables radios if I'm concerned about battery life.
I bet my cell phone playing MP3s will outlast your stand alone cell phone and your stand alone GPS since you're obviously not buying decent equipment in the first place.
My cell phone will play MP3s for 24 hours straight, how long does yours last?
Obviously a GPL supporter. When you add restrictions, its no longer free.
'Free Market' sucks for everyone but the guy on top. Always has, always will. No one any lower down on the ladder than the very top WANTS a free market, they just don't realize it. You are a shining example of that.
You don't want free market, you want a controlled open market. Its a different beast entirely.