Will Google and Android Kill Standalone GPS?

xchg passes along a WiseAndroid piece on the drop in value of Garmin and TomTom shares following Google's announcement yesterday of Google Maps Navigation. "Shares of GPS device makers Garmin and TomTom plummeted... through a combination of their quarterly results and the launch of Google Maps Navigation. Following both low guidance for Garmin's next quarter as well as poor results from TomTom, shares for the two fell 16.4 percent and 20.8 percent respectively and remained low through the entire trading day after news of Google's free, turn-by-turn mapping service became public." Today Lauren Weinstein posted a number of reasons why standalone GPS won't go away any time soon.

Comments

No

[Anonymous Coward]

Some of us don't want or need cellphones.

They still make standalone mp3 players and pdas and cameras.

They still even make standalone cell phones.

For Android to kill GPS, they would have to offer it cheaper than a standalone and provide a working GPS function that did not require a cell phone service contract for it to work.

Re:No

[dintlu]

Before someone got the bright idea to add road maps and turn-by-turn directions to GPS units, they were used recreationally by hikers and other outdoorsy types, and commercially everywhere.

The few curmudgeons who refuse to use functional smartphones are a negligible market. Unintegrated commuter GPS units are going to fall by the wayside in a couple years, but the *original* applications for GPS in handheld devices aren't going anywhere.

Granted, hikers, industry, and the military are much smaller markets than Joe Sixpack, but they're still large enough to sustain the continued manufacture and production of GPS technology.

Re:No

[Anonymous Coward]

Granted...the military are much smaller markets

That's kinda sad considering that the military market is all that's left of America's economy.

Re:No

[sunderland56]

Many phones play music - but the iPod market is still very strong.

Re:No

[Anonymous Coward]

hey, you can aways make a living on the other bigger market, the homeless.

Re:No

[Anonymous Coward]

Sure, if they allow payment in installments. It'll take at least 7 shopping carts of bottles and cans to pay for one 'o' those things. For all that hassle it better at least overlay the public restrooms, dumpsters, and soup kitchens.

Or I could just find a job by walking into the nearest military recruiting office...heeeeeeey, waitaminute!

Re:No

[somersault]

Many computers play DVDs and have TV tuners, but the DVD and television markets are still pretty strong too.

Of course, things are converging slowly.

But IMO devices like GPSes need larger screens than you typically want for your phone, so until we get roll-up or HUD type displays then it's still better to have separate devices for everyday use.

Re:No

[captjc]

The few curmudgeons who refuse to use functional smartphones are a negligible market. Unintegrated commuter GPS units are going to fall by the wayside in a couple years

I have to disagree. Smartphones are not as universally accepted as you would think. Everyone out there does not have a blackberry, iPhone, or Treo. Millions of people still are satisfied with the "free with plan" basic Motorolla/Nokia with calls, text, and a few crappy games built in. The smartphone is still a fraction of overall market sales, a sizeable fraction, but still not the end-all be-all of sales. You may be happy with your smartphone, but Joe Sixpack and Ma and Pa Kettle just want to make calls and send the occasional text message. Besides, not everyone wants to shell out hundreds of dollars when they can just pay ~$30 for a phone from the Verizon kiosk at the mall.

On another note, most people with GPS devices that I know don't want to use their phones for two reasons: a GPS stays mounted on the Dashboard of the car and because of the screen size. Try glancing at a map on a 1 inch cellphone screen while driving.

Re:No

[Anonymous Coward]

wow, you must either a) have OnStar or b) never get stranded in a car.

Re:No

[Andy Dodd]

This is why even with "Standalone" map software (e.g. software where all maps are stored on the device, thus not requiring any cellular coverage to work) for my AT&T Tilt 2 (which has a relatively large screen as PDA-phones go), I still use my standalone GPS - while the screen is lower resolution, it's larger. Actually TomTom's PDA software gets hard to use on high-res screens.

I would never use anything that required cellular coverage for basic navigation functions, even though the new Google solution supposedly caches your entire route, that doesn't help you if you miss a turn and go offroute and need a re-calc.

Re:No

[Anonymous Coward]

Almost: Many phones play music - but the iPod market still very strong is.

Re:No

[Christophotron]

Sprint did this before Google did. If you purchased any smartphone recently from Sprint, (i.e. Touch Pro 2 or Palm Pre), then you already have Sprint Navigation on your phone. It has no additional fees, provides turn-by-turn navigation with text-to-speech (reads the street names to you), and requires an internet connection. I'm sure this didn't have much of an impact on standalone GPS and neither will Google Maps Nav.

They both have the fundamental limitation that they require an active internet connection. If you are out in the boonies somewhere and cannot get a cell signal then you have no navigation ability. You will still need a standalone GPS or a Garmin or TomTom app for your phone that stores the maps on the memory of the device.

Re:No

[Anonymous Coward]

They still even make standalone cell phones.

They are about as available as Mr. Fusion. Even the "barebones" phones are phones with cameras removed (and so labeled) that still have some form of orgnaizer/PDA functions in them.

Re:No

[dintlu]

I don't own a smartphone. But in five years, I'll be able to pay $30 for one at the mall's Verizon kiosk.

Neilsen reports smartphone subscribers comprise nearly 20% of the cellphone market, with the number of subscribers growing 72% quarter-over-quarter. Yes, there are some people out there who don't want a smartphone, who don't want to pay for the data plan, who don't want the larger pocket footprint, who don't want to be connected all the time, but as the number of people using traditional cellphones dwindles, those customers will be penalized for their traditionalism in the same way that an internet subscriber is penalized for not bundling basic cable.

And I addressed the in-car GPS argument in my previous post. Integrated GPS is the future, not dashboard mounted. It usually takes about a decade for features to trickle down from luxury automobiles to consumer automobiles, but once glass consoles make it to the Civic, dash-mounted GPS are gone.

Re:No

[LoverOfJoy]

Here's a question: are standalone GPS significantly better than a cell phone GPS?

Because in the examples you gave, the standalones are miles ahead of the phone equivalent (at least in the majority of phones).

While cameras in phones are getting better, they still generally aren't the kind you'll want to print and put up on the wall.

MP3 players in phones tend to be nowhere near as usable as an ipod (or many other mp3 players).

PDAs I'm least familiar with (at least current ones) but I suspect the same still holds true there. Certainly a few years back the PDA I owned didn't have an affordable equivalent built into a phone and my PDA wasn't anywhere near top of the line at the time.

I have never used a GPS and wouldn't know the difference between what comes standard in a GPS phone versus what comes standard in a stand-alone unit. Is it enough for most people who already have the former to also pick up the latter?

Re:No

[ajs]

Some of us don't want or need cellphones.

"Don't want," I can buy (though it smells of being a Luddite just for the sake of it, at this point... I had relatives who insisted they didn't need a household phone until the mid-50s, but they eventually had to admit that it was just too useful). "Don't need?" That's not fundamentally a personal call. You need a cell phone if and when you're in a situation where having one would provide for some other need (rodeside help, calling emergency services when you see an accident, etc.)

They still make standalone mp3 players and pdas and cameras.

You're posting from a (presumably somewhat modern) computer. I don't think you really have the moral high-ground to complain about consolidation of technology.

They still even make standalone cell phones.

I'm not aware of any. I believe that the only "standalone" cell phones these days are phones where the features that scare off individuals such as yourselves are turned off at the factory.

For Android to kill GPS, they would have to offer it cheaper than a standalone and provide a working GPS function that did not require a cell phone service contract for it to work.

Define "kill." For Android to kill stand-alone GPS units (and I'm not sure it will be Android that does it), it would merely have to become financially impractical for existing GPS makers to stay in business. Garmin just lost over a billion dollars in market share in a day... on the announcement, before anyone had this thing in their hands. Why? Because the people who buy cool tech gadgets already have data plans by and large, and the people who don't will probably settle with in-dash units which will probably go Android or a similar system with access to Google Navigation over the long run for pretty much exactly the same reasons that cell phones will (reduction in overhead and faster time-to-market with the features that the people making the hardware actually differentiate themselves on).

Heck, you might even see a big GPS maker get in bad with Google and produce an Android stand-alone unit.

Re:No

[Philip K Dickhead]

Let's kill Google, and hide the body under the floor.

Re:No

[Anonymous Coward]

How can you be so blind? All electronic portable devices are mergining into 1. The mobile! And everyone will want and need a mobile. In fact, that's the case now. It's simply naive to think you can be sucessful without a mobile. Every businessperson has one.

That's not true. People are willing to have a cell phone contract. Why wouldn't they be willing to use a GPS device that required it? Your ideas are nonsense. Stand alone GPS devices will eventually die at the hands of the mobile.

Re:No

[British]

This this this:

1. I don't want to pay a monthly subscription fee for a device that I'm not going to make phone calls with. I want the other stuff.

2. Most likely, it's going to be a cell provider that's not the one I want, or already have.

3. It will need a 2-year agreement. It will be obsolete in 1 year.

Can we please break away from the cell phone-ness for all these new neat gadgets? It's a lockdown we don't need, nor can all of us afford. If I want a GPS for my car, I want a GPS. Not 2-year commitment and monthly fees.

There's an innovation in smartphones: the lack of a 2-year contract to use it. :)

Re:No

[slim]

Here's a question: are standalone GPS significantly better than a cell phone GPS?

Well. I don't think there's very much to separate the actual GPS receivers. They can all pinpoint your position on the globe to a similar level of accuracy.

The differentiator is the navigation software that uses that information, its usability, its quality and its features. You're looking for clear maps, accurate journey time estimates, various easy ways to find a destination, clear audio instructions, etc.

Now, on platforms like iPhone and Blackberry, basic "you are here" apps are standard. There are simple free turn-by-turn navigation apps, but the platform owners charge a fee to approve apps that get you door to door.

On the Blackberry at least, you can buy Garmin or Navman (etc.) software, which is going to be pretty much equivalent to having a standalone unit from one of those companies.

Re:No

[Duradin]

If I was somewhere where I needed to use a GPS device I wouldn't want its battery being drained by cell phone functions blasting out at full power trying to reach a non-existent tower.

I have a cell phone. I have an mp3 player. My cell phone is not my mp3 player. I want the phone's battery to be ready for phone usage, not to be drained by playing music. Likewise I don't want my mp3 player's battery being drained by my cell phone. If I had a GPS device I wouldn't want it getting drained by cell phone use or playing music. Any GPS device I would buy would need to be much more durable and rugged than I would need for either my phone or mp3 player.

Re:No

[LBt1st]

People who drive cars are far from the only market for GPS devices.
Many people have motorcycles, planes, hang gliders, boats etc.. people hike, ski, hunt, sale, dive, canoe...... the list is endless.

There will always be handheld GPS devices that can be mounted to a pole or stuffed in a pocket. And as long as those exist people will want to use that same device (on their dash) when they drive.

Re:No

[Anonymous Coward]

Google's solution is free... So, yes - they are offering it cheaper that units from TomTom and Garmin...

Re:No

[Ceiynt]

No sir, not the mobile. The Pipboy 3000.

Re:No

[QuantumRiff]

Yes, they are Far, far more accurate, and they work where there are no Cell Phone towers. They are also (usually) easy to extract the information from in standard forms and then use in your own applications (such as google earth pro) to make your own maps. If you hike the Pacific Crest trail, you will have GPS for almost all of it (if you really wanted to lug batteries). With a cell-phone, you are very lucky when you get coverage... Also, the older style, non-touchscreen GPS's can work for a week on a pair of AA Batteries.

Re:No

[Dun Malg]

Here's a question: are standalone GPS significantly better than a cell phone GPS?

Most standalone and cell phone GPS receivers are the same. Everyone is using a cheap commodity GPS receiver like the SiRFstar III. Dedicated GPS units often have a better antenna, but the data coming from the receiver is generally the same no matter what the device. Beyond that, it's all what you do with the data in software.

Re:No

[sabt-pestnu]

Yahoo? Is that you?

Re:No

[Spazztastic]

Yahoo? Is that you?

It has to be Yahoo. He didn't say "Let's bludgeon Google to death with a chair, and hide the body under the floor."

Re:No

[GlassHeart]

If I was somewhere where I needed to use a GPS device I wouldn't want its battery being drained by cell phone functions blasting out at full power trying to reach a non-existent tower.

So switch the phone to airplane mode.

Re:No

[timeOday]

The differentiator is the navigation software that uses that information, its usability, its quality and its features. You're looking for clear maps, accurate journey time estimates, various easy ways to find a destination, clear audio instructions, etc

And that's the real reason garmin should be quaking in their boots. The interface on my 60CS receiver is so slow and primitive, and the search is practically useless compared to google maps. Even the desktop software, MapSource, is generations behind. Don't get me wrong, I'm not going to strap an iPhone onto my motorcycle handlebar and ride through the rain all day, or take it hiking, like I do the 60 CS. The Garmin hardware, though a bit clunky and expensive, is robust and high quality. But the people who need that and will pay for it is a niche. 95% of people will be happy with (and even prefer) integration into their cell phone. Garmin will still be making speciality products for industry and enthusiasts, but that is it.

Re:No

[GlassHeart]

Many computers play DVDs and have TV tuners, but the DVD and television markets are still pretty strong too.

That's different. The TV is usually a living room thing, and the computer is usually a study/bedroom thing. People (who can afford it) buy the most appropriate (often a specialized) device for the activity they plan for each location. IOW, a combo DVD-DVR-cable box makes sense, because it cuts down on the number of boxes in the living room. Running Excel on TV, not nearly as interesting.

The phone and the MP3 player, OTOH, compete for pocket or purse space.

Re:No

[Orange Crush]

^No cell connection, no map data.

Re:No

[slim]

Yes, they are Far, far more accurate,

I don't think this is true. Note we're talking about phones containing a GPS receiver, not phones that do geolocation by triangulating masts.

and they work where there are no Cell Phone towers.

See above. Some devices need a phone signal to get their maps, but that's an implementation choice. Google's implementation caches the image data for the route.

They are also (usually) easy to extract the information from in standard forms and then use in your own applications (such as google earth pro) to make your own maps.

I hope this is true for Android, since openness is supposed to be its strength.

Re:No

[EastCoastSurfer]

With the new free google service you are correct, but the pay for apps on the iPhone have all the maps loaded on the phone itself.

Re:No

[Anonymous Coward]

Ever been in such a situation? A few things that ran through my mind (being an outdoors type who would consider this a solution).

- You should be able to disable turn off the radio
- If you depend on the device, you must have extra batteries anyway (so user swappable would be required). This is true for the Multi-function as well as the GPS
- They make hand-cranked cell phone chargers...
- A multi-function device saves pack weight, and battery weight (see above)
- The back-country GPS are more hardy... and have better GPS resolution
- You should have a map and a compass, and know how to use them
- A Cell Phone _IS_ a survival device in it's own. I can't tell you how often I've used mine to check weather forecasts via SMS in the middle of no place. At high altitudes you get amazing coverage, unless you're very deep in the back country.
- The software is important, the closed software drives me nuts.
- The data is more important. Google Maps suck for all but the most highly traveled areas. They have the presidential range trails in NH, but most other interesting wilderness areas are just 'green'

Maybe you'll find that useful, your post was a little two dimensional. Sorry it's not formated better, I'm at work :)

Re:No

[r_jensen11]

My Nokia has full GPS capabilities. This, combined with an Offline profile and maps of North America (I could do all continents if I plan on visiting them) saved on the phone, mean that I have a working GPS unit on the phone without the battery drain of a GSM or any other cell connection. The only thing which would require a connection to cell towers is if I wanted satellite pictures as opposed to maps. This is all a result of Nokia purchasing Navteq in 2007.

Now if only Nokia would push its v31 firmware upgrade to the NAM models so that I can use my GPS program in landscape mode....

Re:No

[cmdr_tofu]

and pagers too. I see non-cellphone pagers all the time.

Actually I do see pagers, but they are the exception, not a high selling item. They won't go away completely, but almost...

Re:No

[Cajun Hell]

Millions of people still are satisfied with the "free with plan" basic Motorolla/Nokia with calls, text, and a few crappy games built in.

Of course they're satisfied with it. But how long will they continue to be able to get it?

Trying buying parts for a computer some time -- look at the prices -- and see what it would take to build something with 256MB of RAM, since that is "enough." You're going to find that 2GB of RAM is cheaper, because those strips are what is being mass-produced. Some day, you're going to want the cheapest, freest phone from your provider, and they are going to give you a supercomputer with integrated GPS, camera, music player, keychain, debit card magstrip emulator, universal IR remote, cigarette lighter, combo vibrating coffee-stirrer/dildo, and toaster, because it'll be cheaper for them to stock those as the low-end alternative, for the people who don't want to pay much extra for new trendy integrated stun gun or radio telescope (and even those will be free features, two generations later).

There are lots of .. little things .. that benefit from computer control, and maybe more importantly, a battery. It's efficient for them to all share one computer/battery. But once you start doing that, scale happens.

Re:No

[david_thornley]

One tip: you don't actually need user-replaceable batteries in the unit. For example, you can get external battery packs for the iPhone, and you can carry as many as you like. (Probably not many, given the places you're evidently planning to haul them in your pack.)

(One issue with the iPhone is that it does require touching it with an actual finger, and it doesn't work well with a cold finger. Having a warm exposed finger to use it isn't normally a problem for me, but it might be for you.)

Re:No

[Xphile101361]

If the unit was around 100 dollars, if you could download maps to the unit without having to have a 3g connection all the time, then yes, I could see it killing Stand alone GPS units. I took a vacation in Virginia which included a day of trail riding in bufu Virginia. My TomTom could get me there, a cell phone couldn't (as I had no bars for a lot of the day). Until you fix this, a phone just can't replace a standalone. There is also the idea that my 100$ GPS unit doesn't have to be updated but will still be "current" enough for 1-2 years.. while with a cell phone you are paying an extra 20-40$ per month in Data Plan fees. If I could have a standalone device (not a phone), that would let me cache the maps for a region... then yes, I could see that cutting into the GPS unit profits significantly.

Re:No

[Gruturo]

Unfortunately, on the iPhone, Airplane mode == No GPS. At all.

Yes it's stupid.

Re:No

[Dahamma]

So you want to carry three devices because you don't want each function to drain the other's batteries?

Basically you are just carrying around three batteries along with the extra bulk of three sets of electronics, screens, etc. And the extra battery drain of the overhead of duplicate components in each.

Just get a smartphone with a removable battery and two spares. You wouldn't even have to carry the spare batteries in your pocket everywhere to get the functionality of all three devices - just when you think you may need to switch batteries on the go.

Remember, this is about whether smartphones WILL kill GPS, not whether they already HAVE. 20 years ago cell phones were huge bricks, GPS wasn't even available to consumers, and MPEG was still in development. It's amazingly naive to think technological improvements in power management, battery life, durability, coverage, etc will make most of the arguments in this thread moot in the near future.

Re:No

[ckaminski]

GPS receivers can be had from Mouser.com for $30. Those devices will always be available to the persons who want specialty GPS devices (whole integrated solutions can be had from sparkfun for less than $100). The tom-tom/nagivon/Nuvi market is going to be GONE in ten years as every car comes GPS built-in (probably driven by tax/toll/insurance requirements).

Re:No

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

The smartphone is still a fraction of overall market sales, a sizeable fraction, but still not the end-all be-all of sales

I think the general feeling is that smartphone ownership is growing and has the potential to become the dominant type of phone on the market. Whether or not that will happen, no-one knows, but I think there's a parallel being drawn between the increase of smartphone use and the increase of PC ownership during the mass-acceptance of the internet. In any event, I think the phrase 'kill' is being used too literally. Typewriters have been 'killed' long ago, but you can still purchase them.

Besides, not everyone wants to shell out hundreds of dollars when they can just pay ~$30 for a phone from the Verizon kiosk at the mall.

Demand is growing for internet-in-your-pocket.

a GPS stays mounted on the Dashboard of the car

I agree. This is a really really really good reason why the GPS will be hard to totally kill. Even if most cars come with in-dash navigation units, it'll be a while before the market of people that don't have those will be too small to support. However, the value of products like the Nuvi diminishes if you already have something in your pocket that's "good enough".

Try glancing at a map on a 1 inch cellphone screen while driving.

My iPhone screen isn't that much smaller than my GPS screen. Frankly, while driving with the GPS, I don't really look at the map anyway. Basically I use the audio cues and occasionally glance to get a few bits of info that could be text based anyway. I'll concede, though, that I don't represent the masses.

I agree that you'll still be able to buy stand-alone GPS's for the next .. say.. 10 years at least. I don't agree that they'll be a sizable market-share by then. Smart Phones are becoming more and more ubiquitous, the extra size of a GPS isn't buying it anything (like better whiz-bang features), and it's not like the needs of the GPS users are growing much like, for example, the demands of PC users over the years.

Re:No

[Lord Ender]

In the professional sphere in the US, everyone really does have a blackberry or iphone or windows moblie smartphone. Pretty much everyone in Gen Y is in the same boat, if they can afford such devices.

You're very right that these two groups aren't "everyone," but they are the groups that matter most, and they are the groups that lead the trends.

Re:No

[ajs]

A mistake in my above post:

I said Garmin lost $1B in "market share" in a day. I meant "market cap." Big difference, there.

Re:No

[RenderSeven]

Ironically, the places you need GPS the most are the places there is no cell phone coverage. As much as I like my Android its my Garmin that goes into the backpack.

Re:No

[xenocide2]

I've believed for a long time that their consumer products division was mainly an engineering training ground. When you look at it, they don't own much; they buy GPS chips from other manufacturers, they license maps and some of their newer stuff runs Linux underneath, and their phone offerings are all outsourced. As you mention in closing, they still have industrial products, mainly avionics, where their competitive advantage is probably in FAA compliance, i.e. paperwork and testing.

Re:No

[ckaminski]

Does not the Palm Pre actually have a GPS receiver in it?

Re:No

[ckaminski]

A contact list does not a "PDA" make.

Re:No

[cellurl]

I designed an Android App. I am pretty sure you can run the GPS with the SIM card out, or w/o a voiceplan. Thats what I want also... Then I will run VoIP and never need a voiceplan. Thats the future and the carriers hate it.

The day will come when you say, "hmmm, wonder if my phone will do that", [aka maps], probably while in line at BestBuy buying a TomTom.

You are correct, the Android must be cheap, but also, I think they should come bundled with a dashboard-mount. I hate determining which "mount" to buy..

Give me more speed limit...

Re:No

[alieneye]

Bring your phone and 2 extra batteries. Problem solved.

Re:No

[FireFury03]

Yes, they are Far, far more accurate,

I don't think this is true. Note we're talking about phones containing a GPS receiver, not phones that do geolocation by triangulating masts.

For some reason, phones often don't seem to have SBAS functionality (my HTC Dream doesn't). I have no idea why this is, since SBAS uses the same frequencies and encoding as the GPS satellites, so shouldn't need any extra hardware, it's just a firmware thing AFAIK.

See above. Some devices need a phone signal to get their maps, but that's an implementation choice. Google's implementation caches the image data for the route.

ISTR that some of the older phones rely on remote servers run by the MNO to do assisted GPS, although I doubt any new phones do.

Re:No

[jwhitener]

If you are in your car, wouldn't power be the least concern? You have a plugin for power in front of you.

Re:No

[Rob Riggs]

No cell connection, no map data.

...for Google Maps on Android.

There is at least one Android GPS app, CoPilot, which offers turn-by-turn directions and which store its maps on the SD card. No cell connection required at all.

Re:No

[mcrbids]

Some of us don't want or need cellphones.

They still make standalone mp3 players and pdas and cameras.

They still even make standalone cell phones.

That is, until it's no longer profitable to do so.

1) When was the last time you even saw a pager on sale? Do they even offer pager service any more?

2) Pay phones are disappearing faster than coastal fog on a 100 degree day.

3) land-lines are disappearing now, since most younger, 20-somethings today decide not to bother.

4) Watches are on the strong decline, too. Look around you: how many 25 and unders wear one?

All of these are victims of the success of cell phones. I haven't worn a watch in years. We only have a single dedicated "clock" in my relatively spacious (2,000 sq ft) house, and it's really just decorative. The only other clocks are in the microwave and the coffee maker! I don't remember the last time I used a pay phone, and the land-line is so rarely used that we often don't even have a phone plugged into it. We only have it because it costs some $5/month extra after getting the DSL plan.

Why, exactly, would you think that you'd always have dedicated MP3 players and GPS devices?

Re:No

[IndustrialComplex]

Ironically, the places you need GPS the most are the places there is no cell phone coverage. As much as I like my Android its my Garmin that goes into the backpack.

In the back country, I can sit down with a map.

In the middle of Boston, I need my GPS with voice announcements.

Re:No

[Nerdposeur]

For Android to kill GPS, they would have to offer it cheaper than a standalone and provide a working GPS function that did not require a cell phone service contract for it to work.

The interesting thing (to me) is that Google could do this, and I don't see why they wouldn't.

All you need is a device with a decent size hard drive, touch screen, and Wi-Fi capability. It could store Google Map data for a whole country or region (just check off the ones you need), excluding most of the imagery for space considerations. It could auto-update via Wi-Fi at your home or hotel, or using your existing MiFi or whatever else. And it could serve whatever advertising purposes their standard navigation products serve (?), although not with up-to-the-minute info.

Google doesn't need cell carriers for this. Just call it Google Navigation Lite and crank it out.

Re:No

[Buelldozer]

Please bolt your smartphone to the handlebars of a four wheeler and spend two days off road with it. While you're out there in the back country go fishing and fall in the water.

Wincing yet? Now you understand why people will continue to choose discrete devices. A ruggedized smartphone would be more expensive, bulkier, need interchangeable standard alkaline cell batteries, and very probably be LESS ACCURATE than a discrete device from Garmin.

Also, my Garmin etrex Vista HCX will go for days on a pair of standard AA cell alkaline batteries. I've yet to see a smartphone get anywhere near that battery life, even with all of it's communication functionality turned off. The high resolution color screens simply will not allow it.

Re:No

[91degrees]

Still, certain phones have advantages that make them poor substitutes for satnav. Small screens can be useful because they result in small phones with lots of space for the buttons. A lot of us prefer buttons to touchscreen. The "candybar" design is probably going to stay with us for a while. A good design for a phone, but a bad design for a satnav. The other thing is, some of us like to have two separate devices (I have a camera and an mp3 player as well as a cameraphone with built in mp3 player).

In my case there's a simpler reason I'm not going to get a satnav. I already have one.

Re:No

[ckaminski]

See, here's the beauty about becoming a public company. I sell you shares in my company. But I never have to promise to buy them back. Garmin could lose its ENTIRE market value overnight, and it will have a non-impact on its fundamentals. It'll also make it a great steal for me at $.01 par value. :-)

Re:No

[Duradin]

Who needs to carry around a toolbox full of tools when they can just carry a multi-tool? It's just as good as the real tools, right?

Re:No

[Buelldozer]

Yes. I'll put my Garmin etrex Vista HCx GPS up against any cell phone based GPS for accuracy. The discrete device is more accurate, has FAR superior battery life, a better screen for reading outdoors (doesn't wash out), is waterproof, floats, is dustproof, is vibration proof, etc, etc.

So if you're an outdoors user, like I am, then yes, the standalone GPS unit IS superior in every meaningful way.

Re:No

[Nerdposeur]

Actually, I may be wrong about one major thing: if Google needs to user their servers to compute good routes, a standalone unit might not work.

Re:No

[MikeBabcock]

But that makes the article's subject redundant since the pay-for service is Tomtom.

Re:No

[Dahamma]

Do you carry around a separate power drill for every size bit that you need? Build a great hardware platform and only the software has to change.

Re:No

[Stevecrox]

Thats a poor arguement since you can turn Wifi, Bluetooth and 3G parts off most modern phones (I can with my Nokia 5800). Secondly I should point out the GPSs the biggest power drain in my device, followed by Bluetooth. The MP3 and phone functions use a surprisingly small amount of battery.

I don't think TomTom and Garmin are going anywhere, on my phone Google Maps sucks* compared to Nokia Maps (which is subscription based). All TomTom and Garmin have to do is create symbian/pre/iphone software so a user can use their phone in a similar fashion to the stand alone product. Since Garmin has already done that for the Nokia 5800/N95/N97 and for the iPhone.

*I thought I would qualify, google maps on the Nokia 5800 is completely net based meaning you can't use it in a non 3G area, since it downloads the maps on the fly it takes about 2 minutes (for me) to get going and it's less accurate in its positioning (usually by a street or two) than Nokia Maps. Finally Nokia Maps works in a similar fashion to a stand alone GPS, Google Maps doesn't give directions in that manor and can be quite hard to follow when driving.

Re:No

[morgauxo]

Just because a market is big enough to support business does not mean business will bother to support the market. If there is a perception that cellular integrated gps is "in" and standalones are obsolete then the pickings for hikers will be slim at best. Look at video games on Linux. There are probably far more Linux Desktop users then there were home PC owners in the early 90s. There were plenty of companies making games for PCs back then. The industry supported them. But there are far more still on Windows or Mac now so what percentage of commercial games have native Linux versions? Look at electronics part stores. Today we have the maker movement. We also are at an all time high number of licensed hams. But the perception is that DIY electronics and any non-cellular radio are obsolete. Most of the independant hobbyist stores are gone and Radio Shack is now mostly just a vendor of over priced cellphones tvs and computer accessories. Good luck hikers. Now, the military market is actually HUGE. There is money there and the manufacturers know it. Civilian GPS however has certain limitations built in so that we can't use them to make DIY weapons. I don't think much military surplus GPS gear is going to make it to the hikers market.

Re:No

[Dahamma]

Obviously there will always be special purpose devices for special purposes, I don't disagree with that at all. And Garmin will probably always be around to build those niche devices, because they will adapt to the mainstream consumer needs - ie THEY ALREADY MAKE AN ANDROID PHONE. But for TomTom, Dash, etc - the smaller companies with a limited product line hoping to cash in on the consumer auto turn-by-turn navigation market - the future is not so certain...

Re:No

[rgviza]

depends on the GPS app. You can load an entire region into it and it doesn't need a cellular signal to work, only GPS satellites which are reachable from anywhere.

Google maps doesn't do this, but it's not the only GPS application.

That being said, the iPhone has a short battery life and takes forever and a day to lock on to GPS satellites.

Location Services sucks a ton of juice and makes the iPhone get hot. If I were to depend on this, which I wouldn't, I'd have to get a battery case to extend the battery life.

I'd _never_ trust my well being to an iPhone GPS program.

I'd need a industrial strength GPS, along with a real analog compass and map backup to feel confident. Dedicated GPS has a lot going for it over smartphones, at this stage in smartphone evolution, namely battery life, the ability to swap in a fresh set of batteries, being waterproof in some cases and much faster to lock onto satellites.

You can fix the locking time issue with a bluetooth puck, but running bluetooth shortens the battery life even more.

Maybe one day...

Re:No

[644bd346996]

Yes. The antenna on my GPS receiver wouldn't fit into any smartphone, even if you took out the phone bits. I suspect if you took a smartphone into a deep valley with thick tree cover, you would find that it couldn't track satellites as well as even the cheapest dedicated receivers, let alone as well as a high-end unit. Also, no smartphone that I've yet heard of has a barometric altimeter, which means the altitude readings off a smartphone are pretty much a novelty. (The last time I went sea kayaking with a GPS, the altitude reported was -6ft the whole time, despite the receiver clearly being 8inches above the water.) An accurate altimeter can be very useful when navigating and geocaching in the mountains.

However, all the above reasons pale in comparison the the fact that my heart doesn't skip a few beats when I drop my GPS onto a rock in a river. I know it will be fine as long as I fetch it out before it gets washed downstream. If the same happened with an iPhone (which is far more likely to be dropped, due to the smooth, slick surfaces), I'd have good reason to panic.

Re:No

[vakuona]

Just checked. Not true.

Re:No

[wealthychef]

If there is no cell phone service, you would get no guidance, right? GPS is global, out in the wild even. Cell phones fail all the time. I'll stick with GPS for now.

Re:No

[Richy_T]

Many 2000 cars were still coming with cassette decks instead of CD players. I think you misunderstand how the market works.

Re:No

[steelfood]

Android can potentially run on any device. While it has made the most noise in the phone market, it may now be sufficient for small hardware manufacturers to slap Android on their GPS-enabled device and call it a GPS without having to go through the trouble of buying maps and coding their own shortest path algorithm. This is what's worrisome.

Re:No

[badasscat]

Ironically, the places you need GPS the most are the places there is no cell phone coverage. As much as I like my Android its my Garmin that goes into the backpack.

In other words, the way you personally use your GPS device must be the way everyone else does, right?

You talk about putting your Garmin into your "backpack" and using it where there is no cell phone service. That's sounding to me like you're taking it hiking out in the back country. Which is fine, but that is not what most people use GPS for these days, nor is it what Google Navigation is intended for. It's intended for use while driving. (Indeed, many GPS devices produced these days will not work when off-road.)

Most places in the United States where there's a road, there's cell phone service. No, maybe not on some rural route in Idaho, but certainly in the most populated areas. And while it may seem counterintuitive, it is actually more helpful to have GPS for car navigation in the most populated areas than it is in the least, the reason being that there are so many more roads, which means so many more turns. To get from my store in Manhattan to my home just outside the city - a distance of approximately 14 miles - requires something like 45 different maneuvers and the use of about that many different roads.

Now, the REAL killer app for Google Navigation, which will be apparent to all eventually if it isn't now, is free cloud-provided live traffic. Most current GPS devices that provide traffic info (and remember, they all force you to pay for it in some way) do it the old fashioned way, usually by subscribing to a service that's taking call-in reports from local police or utilities, or even individual commuters. This info is always old and often wrong. Google Maps' traffic is live, taken from the cloud. Right now, my wife and I have gotten into the habit of having our GPS hooked up and having one of our phones out with Google Maps loaded up to check traffic on our route. (Remember, this is New York.) And it's always right, but there's currently no easy way for us to do anything about it when our GPS device guides us into a "red" traffic area. (We can press the "detour" button, but that doesn't really guide us around traffic, just a pre-set distance.)

It's going to be amazing having free live traffic data integrated into Google Navigation. The only thing I haven't seen is whether there's a way to tell the app to "avoid traffic" when constructing a route, or to "detour around traffic" if traffic develops along the way. But that should be pretty easy to add if they haven't already; just another little algorithm.

And that's the *other* great thing about this - free updates. I had to pay $80 for map and interface upgrades to my Magellan Roadmate 2200T, and while it was worth it, they only ever produced that one update and I sure would have liked it to be free. Especially considering that the update itself has its own problems, which I have now just had to live with - for example, it now messes up the side of the street destinations are on about half the time. No way to fix this except to buy a new device with new software on it. It also constantly drives me into a dead end when I go to my mother's house - the map is out of date. Again, no more updates are coming - gotta buy a new device. Waste of money.

Re:No

[Obfuscant]

So switch the phone to airplane mode.

Airplane mode had better switch off the GPS, too, since GPS is a radio function which is not allowed without PIC or operator approval.

Re:No

[Richy_T]

Do Garmin pay dividends? If not, this is one of the dangers of not doing so. Instead of the price being based on the (no doubt) good income that Garmin will continue to receive for the next several years, it's based on whether or not you can shift the shares onto someone else at a better price. Clouds of doom such as the Google announcement can have a devastating effect.

Re:No

[ckaminski]

Only to shareholders, not to Garmin itself (except many of the Garmin shareholders are Garmin boardmembers/employees so have a vested interest in keeping the stock high).

Losing 100% of your stock value does not affect your fundamentals income/expense (it may in the long term, but overnight, no).

Or have I just been misunderstanding how the market works for my entire adult life?

Once I sell you a share in my company, you can't then come to me and make me buy it back from you.

Re:No

[Richy_T]

Meh, it's a bit out of my league but I understand it can be bad. Companies can leverage credit against shares or issue new shares to raise money. This could have many diverse effects on the company, including to existing or new projects.

  Mergers and acquisitions are also sometimes accomplished by the exchange of stocks and shares and, depending how things are constituted, low share prices could expose them to a takeover.

Plus, as you say, the employees and board members could be affected. Stock options are issued partly to encourage employees to stay in their positions. If they become worthless, there's less incentive for valuable employees to stay.

Re:No

[RenderSeven]

Valid point, but a map tells you where to go and a GPS tells you where you are. If you're good with maps and know roughly which map you're on and have a compass and a clear view to visual landmarks and have daylight, a map is fine, and I always carry a set of maps out of prudence and habit. But when lost near the Canadian border with 1/4 tank of gas, not sure which state or even country I'm in, at 2 AM with temperatures heading for -20F and white-out snow squalls, GPS is your friend. Your BEST friend is the person that told you not to get into such a stupid situation in the first place, and is probably riding on the sled next to you saying "I told you so", but your SECOND best friend is GPS.

In the same vein though, even entering Boston in a motor vehicle is just as reckless and irresponsible. And until GPS can tell you, for instance, "Take Off The Yankees Hat Before Someone Shoves A Sam Adams Up Your Squantum" it's not really that useful in Boston.

Re:No

[rohan972]

Dedicated GPS units often have a better antenna, but the data coming from the receiver is generally the same no matter what the device. Beyond that, it's all what you do with the data in software.

Don't underestimate the benefit of a better antenna. My phone GPS often lacks the signal strength to connect. Also the screen is a fraction of the size of a stand alone GPS, it doesn't have a touch screen. To enter an address is significantly more difficult than on a TomTom, which is the only other GPS I've used. The GPS connectivity has deteriorated over time, perhaps due to rough treatment of the phone.

I bought this phone as an experiment to see how good the GPS was. My conclusion is that if I want a GPS to buy a stand alone one. Phone GPS has some benefits but if I was relying on having a working GPS, say to find a customers location, it isn't good enough. It has been very handy though compared to not having a GPS unit at all. It's a good feature to have on a phone but it could be used to obtain a sales advantage over a phone that didn't have it, not to make me part with any more money.

Re:No

[Xtravar]

On another note, most people with GPS devices that I know don't want to use their phones for two reasons: a GPS stays mounted on the Dashboard of the car and because of the screen size. Try glancing at a map on a 1 inch cellphone screen while driving.

Reaching over and touching the nav screen is a thousand times worse than tapping on an iPhone.

Looking over at the nav screen is a thousand times worse than holding the iPhone up by my steering wheel.

Also, my nav system won't let me change my destination until the car's in park!

Granted, I have a built in nav system that came with my car, but I find it useless compared to the iPhone + Google Maps.

Re:No

[mcbagpipes]

Actually I have been unimpressed with the accuracy of the cell phone based GPS systems. I have a moderately priced stand-alone that can get me within 5 feet of a set of coordinates. Great for geo-caching. I did several aggressive climbs this summer. My GPS kept the group on target while my cell phone (and integrated GPS) had lost signal about an hour before we arrived at our trail head.

Re:No

[linuxguy]

Droid has GPS receiver built-in. And it caches maps. So if you are out in the wild with no cell coverage, you are still OK, if the maps are cached. Caching is explicit when you specify your origin and destination before leaving.

Hopefully the cache space is configurable. I would give it a lot of space (flash is cheap these days and getting cheaper) and this would be a non-issue.

The huge huge upside is that you dont have to mess around with manually updating map data like you have to do with standalone GPS units. And pay about $100 or so for the privilege.

Re:No

[ShakaUVM]

>>I had to pay $80 for map and interface upgrades to my Magellan Roadmate 2200T, and while it was worth it,

I don't think $80 for a map update is really worth it, especially when the cost of a GPS unit is usually in the $200-$300 range. On my Nuvi, it cost $250 for the unit, but map updates cost $80 for one, or $120 for a lifetime subscription, which is akin to highway robbery. Replacing the car charger is $120 as well. Lifetime traffic? That's down to around $40 now, but when it came out it was an annual fee.

It's case in point why closed systems are bad. Or not that they're "bad", per se, but bad in that the companies often try to block people from hacking their own devices (first sale doctrine, what?) in order to enforce their ridiculous fee structure on the populace.

Re:No

[jonbryce]

I bought TomTom for my cellphone. The maps are installed on a memory card, so they work without the need for a cellphone signal. I can download updates for satellite positions which helps it fix a location a bit quicker.

I also have Google maps for my cellphone, which works with GPS, so this isn't a new thing by any means. It is good for searching google local ads, so it will tell me the nearest whatever to where I'm standing at the moment and direct me there. TomTom allows you to download point of interest files which perform a similar task, and that works sometimes, but it isn't as good as Google in that department, unless I'm in the Scottish Highlands with no cellphone signal and I need to find a petrol station urgently.

So my cellphone lets me have the best of both worlds. If either Google or TomTom could let me have the best of both worlds at the same time from the same application, that would be even better.

Re:No

[jonbryce]

It makes them less able to do a rights issue to finance future investment. It also makes it more likely that another company will launch a takeover bid.

Re:No

[LBt1st]

Maybe, just maybe tomtom etc won't be selling as much hardware. But they currently and I'm sure will continue making software for various devices. I use TomTom on a PDA. It sits on an SD Card with the entire US map data. As someone else replied, TomTom can also be installed on cell phones and other things.
I assure you, when I'm riding my motorcycle in the middle of the desert (not unusual for me); I won't have any use for a cell based solution or an in-dash car device.

People like me will keep that market alive. As will our boys overseas, pilots, sailors etc..

Besides the whole "GPS will be in every car" idea is just plan bunk. Especially in the current economy. Cars are still made without power windows. GPS is a nice option for someone that wants it. Many people do not want that option and will not pay extra for it. Car manufactures are not going to install GPS in every car when they can barely sell cars at all. That is a fantasy based on nonsense.

Re:No

[farble1670]

Some of us don't want or need cellphones.

and you are most definitely not the teeny-tiny demographic that companies like Garmin want to base their future upon.

Re:No

[William Ager]

The two of you are talking about different kinds of GPS devices. Cell phones may well kill the modern GPS devices that are designed to give street directions and sit atop dashboards. I've used Google Maps on my e51 rather than a GPS unit for years.

They certainly won't, however, kill the standalone GPS units Duradin is talking about, which are designed for hiking, sailing, and other more rugged uses than simply driving through town. Google's new offering doesn't apply to those anyway: cell phones have been able to replicate the functions of such devices for quite a while. However, cell phones are, by comparison, incredibly fragile and inappropriate for situations where standalone GPS systems work well: many of my GPS systems are waterproof, and I've dropped one out of a moving car with no repercussions; buttons are often designed to be easy to use with gloves; battery life is significantly higher even when compared to a cell phone in airplane mode; and in general, these sorts of systems are being used where carrying around a cell phone would be completely useless due to lack of service.

There's the possibility that one could combine GPS and a satellite phone, but I don't think the result would be popular. To begin with, if one falls out of a canoe, or off a cliff, or just breaks, it's nice to have lost only one of two.

Re:No

[_avs_007]

See above. Some devices need a phone signal to get their maps, but that's an implementation choice. Google's implementation caches the image data for the route.

If it does it sucks. When I was in San Jose, my cell signal cut out in a few places, and every time it did, Google would quit updating the map, causing me to miss my turn, because Google didn't know where I was. It was quite annoying.

Re:No

[Anonymous Coward]

Please notice that a good chunk of that simple Nokia you've mentioned are smartphones too, perhaps not as flashy as certain products of some IP-stealing companies ;)

Plus data plans and coverage are a local aspect.

E.g. in Austria mainstream plans start to come with some GB of data included. Affordable data plans are probably available in all EU countries (I only know about AT, DE, UK, PL and CH [yes it's not an EU member]), and in most of these places there are even quite acceptable prepaid SIMs available.

E.g. in Austria coverage is the norm. Thinking for a moment, I can only think of three places with no coverage, and that would be the multilevel garage below our flat, the house of my inlaws (but that does not really stop one from using an online navigation system, that no coverage spot is perhaps 100m big, actually 2 of our 3 networks do cover the place fine), and skiing slopes tend to have places that have no coverage.

The typical Austrian is used to full network coverage when going by subway (which is in strong contrast to some German cities where the subways have no coverage ;) )

Well, our 9 yrs old daughter has no smartphone, but I guess her current phone is 3 yrs old, and the next one will be probably a smartphone, including a mobile internet plan.

Re:No

[supernova_hq]

Especially since every single gps-enabled phone has a VERY crappy gps in it. Anyone who does serious (I'm talking trackers, hunters, back-woods campers and geocachers) will tell you that a standalone unit is the only way to go.

Re:No

[jipn4]

GPS is receive-only, and many airlines allow it at cruising altitudes (like laptops, MP3 players, and anything else that doesn't try to transmit):

http://gpsinformation.net/airgps/airgps.htm

Re:No

[Anonymous Coward]

Day to day, I only carry a multitool. It gets 99% of what I need to do done.

Re:No

[drinkypoo]

I don't think this is true. Note we're talking about phones containing a GPS receiver, not phones that do geolocation by triangulating masts.

Phones almost always have inferior antennas. That aside, at least on GSM TDOA can provide sub-1m accuracy.

Re:No

[Cili]

etrex Vista HCx is indeed all you mentioned, except for the floating part.

I put it in the bathtub and it went down like a stone. It might float if there are no batteries inside, but that's useless.

Garmin have a rugged unit that floats, the one they advertise for marine use.

One other nice thing concerning power use - vista HCx will work with crappy batteries too. When I'm on a trip I usually put in it the batteries that don't work in the camera any more and they give at least 4 hours of use.

Re:No

[dangitman]

Ironically, the places you need GPS the most are the places there is no cell phone coverage.

Why would you need phone coverage to use the GPS unit in your phone?

Re:No

[BitZtream]

If I was somewhere where I needed to use a GPS device I wouldn't want its battery being drained by cell phone functions blasting out at full power trying to reach a non-existent tower.

Me either, thats why I toggle the airplane mode bit, that disables radios if I'm concerned about battery life.

I bet my cell phone playing MP3s will outlast your stand alone cell phone and your stand alone GPS since you're obviously not buying decent equipment in the first place.

My cell phone will play MP3s for 24 hours straight, how long does yours last?

Re:No

[RenderSeven]

Why would you need phone coverage to use the GPS unit in your phone?

You dont, of course. But that aside there are several other differences between a handheld GPS and a typical phone GPS; the quality/accuracy of the receiver, stability and ability to track in suboptimal conditions, power consumption, ruggedness of construction, and the software on top of it all. I could probably write an Android app that did most of what a Garmin Trailmaster does, but the $20 worth of GPS hardware in a G3 is not as good as a dedicated unit. If you only need to find your way to Best Buy it may not matter, but under a dense leaf canopy in a valley the gain from a decent helical antenna and high quality LNA stage is more than a convenience. My Garmins have survived a 10 foot drop, extreme temperatures, days of salt spray, and immersion in tequila. I have overlays for snowmobile trails, hiking trails, airports and VOR waypoints, and the batteries last days and are easily recharged or replaced. My marine GPS had a dedicated man-overboard emergency button. You could make a phone that did all that, maybe, but it wouldnt really be a mass-market consumer device that benefits from million-piece quantities of scale. And I dont think it makes sense for a handset maker to spend money on improved hardware when 80 or 90 or 99% of their customers just need to drive to the mall. On the other hand if you're a pilot, climber, sailor, woodsman there's a purpose-built unit that works really well for that application and cost less than a smartphone. I agree TomTom's and low-end Magellan's can be replaced by an Android, but my opinion is that dedicated purpose-built GPS's will have a market for a while longer.

Re:No

[ckaminski]

In 2000, car radios with decent anti-shock ratings were still expensive.

Re:No

[dangitman]

Well, I can agree with that, especially considering the "high end" argument. But in reality, high-end GPS receivers are a small minority of the market - most of the standalone GPS units sold are just as shit as a phone's GPS, and are not some sort of mythical rugged device with superior performance. Just as the majority of standalone cameras sold are not amazingly rugged DSLRs, but cheap point-and-shoot models.

Re:No

[Christophotron]

Absolutely, any decent smartphone made in the last few years has an actual GPS receiver that communicates with GPS satellites. My point was that it also requires an active internet connection because it does not cache the maps. What good is knowing your latitude/longitude if you still don't know what is around you? If you drive out in the boonies somewhere and you lose cell signal then you also lose your maps and navigation. Maybe Google will improve this with smart caching or something, but right now if you want to store the maps on your device you still need to purchase an app or a standalone GPS from a company like Garmin, TomTom, etc..

Re:No

[indiechild]

I don't know of anyone who keeps their (standalone) GPS mounted on the dashboard of the car. They take their GPS with them when they leave, otherwise they're liable to lose it when a thief smashes the window and opens the glovebox (or wherever you've squirreled the thing away).

If you're gonna take it with you, it's more convenient if the device is an all-in-one, i.e. a smartphone with GPS.

Re:No

[indiechild]

Which is why TomTom released their iPhone app and the iPhone car kit which allows even the first-gen iPhone to utilise GPS functionality. This is just the start. They're not quite as dim as we think they are.

Re:No

[smoker2]

gps != satnav

Re:No

[WhiteWolf666]

In my opinion, for those "inside civilization"* a GPS phone is vastly superior to a standalone GPS. I've used both extensively.

A standalone GPS is restricted to the database it can carry around. Some, like the Tom-Tom's, have a nice software interface for updating this regularly, but it is impractical to do this more than once a day, and a hassle to boot.

My Pre, on the other hand, running Sprint's Telenav, gets updates "on the wire". This has a side effect of offering you a much larger database, too; you aren't restricted by on-board storage, but can have Telenav's entire phone book at your finger tips. Most areas also have traffic congestion information, as well, which is very, very nice.

You can do other things as well, such as "find the cheapest gas along my route". Not to mention that Telenav fixes the routing on a regular basis; I've seen routing improve in areas that had undergone recent construction. It's really a *very* nice app.

*All that being said, you need to be inside cell coverage for it to work at all. I've heard that they are working on an offline option for which you would carry some data with you, and would sync up when you get back into coverage, but at the moment the cell phone approach is not the best when you are going to spend a significant amount of time off the interstates (IMHO, there is decent Sprint/Verizon coverage everywhere in the US with 5-10 miles of the interstates, but it can get hairy on state highways). This sound like a big problem, however, very very few citydwellers end up in the sticks on a regular basis, and for those that do, you can usually get the last 20-50 miles of your drive done without a GPS system.

Re:No

[WhiteWolf666]

Now, the REAL killer app for Google Navigation, which will be apparent to all eventually if it isn't now, is free cloud-provided live traffic.

Amen. This is why I love Sprint's Telenav. Turn-by-turn guidance, with voice directions, and it takes traffic into account.

That's the *future* of city/suburb GPS.

Re:No

[Falconhell]

If! It! Was! Yahoo! it! would! have! an! exclamation! mark!

Re:No

[polymeris]

They still even make standalone cell phones.

I'm not aware of any. I believe that the only "standalone" cell phones these days are phones where the features that scare off individuals such as yourselves are turned off at the factory.

I own the closest thing to a standalone cell phone you can get: a motofone. No games, no camera, no pda. It's not the features per se that scare me off, it's the distraction, short battery life, high price and bad usability of most phones compared to this one.

Re:No

[Obfuscant]

GPS is receive-only,

GPS is a radio receiver using mixers, etc, and as such falls into the "radio device" classification. While it is an "unintentional emitter" under the rules, it is still an emitter and can cause interference to other receivers.

and many airlines allow it at cruising altitudes

Yes, some do, and some don't. That was why I said it required PIC/operator approval. Without explicit approval, it is not permitted.

If your phone has "airplane mode" and it does not shut off the GPS, you are in danger of violating federal regulations by using airplane mode while aloft. All it takes is being on a carrier that does not permit GPS use while airborne.

Re:No

[Duradin]

About a week or so on standby. And if my math is correct, 168 hours is greater than 24.

Re:No

[supernova_hq]

How is that relative to my comment?

UH?

[poetmatt]

I thought garmin was about to make an android device, thus ensuring that they have nothing to worry (essentially a cellphone/gps hybrid or something, same as is released).

Re:UH?

[TheGreenNuke]

You're referring to this. It's a reality and available now.

Re:UH?

[TheLink]

If lots of people start using Google's free stuff, there'd be fewer people visiting: https://buy.garmin.com/shop/buymaps.do

And giving Garmin lots of $$$.

Garmin making an android device just shows that the Garmin bosses aren't in denial of what's going to happen to Garmin. It doesn't mean they have nothing to worry about.

Re:UH?

[samkass]

Garmin's market cap is ~6B and TomTom's is less than 2B. Apple could buy either with cash on hand. Considering that GPS is a major feature and a major Apple competitor now controls that feature, I think Apple should seriously consider doing so.

Re:UH?

[ToasterMonkey]

uh huh.. like Apple has any interest in nautical or aviation GPS hardware, or any of the other dozens of things Garmin does besides tell you how to get to the nearest McDonalds.

Re:UH?

[Drathos]

No, the Nuvifone is not running Android.

Re:UH?

[markkezner]

The Garmin Nuviphone G60 is a Linux device, but it does not run Android.

Relevant Engadget article. A quick google search will give you more sources.

Re:UH?

[R2.0]

Sort of like their total lack of involvement with portable music devices and music distribution?

Re:UH?

[wsanders]

Available only from AT&T, and it costs $100 more than an iPhone.

Fail.

Well, I suppose there is a market for Apple Haters and phone hackers.

Re:UH?

[Dun Malg]

No, not like that at all. Apple largely sells consumer products. Garmin makes a lot of GPS units for commercial aviation, trucking, and marine applications.

Re:UH?

[R2.0]

I understand that, but was drawing the parallel that Apple does have a history of entering other markets.

You may be correct that Garmin may be too big of a fish to swallow. Tomtom, however...

Re:UH?

[gustavo.niemeyer]

I wonder why Garmin has a phone in their front page rather than an aviation or nautical GPS. Maybe it has something to do with the number of people inside McDonalds compared to the number of people inside a cockpit.

Re:UH?

[rgviza]

Search for Navionics in iTunes under applications. Search by artist. That's for Nautical and they have packs for every waterway. $9.99 a region for the US. Usually they are more expensive. In the US. the map data is subsidized by taxes so it's less expensive.

Skycharts is an Aviation GPS, which you can download regions to so it will work outside of cell tower range.

Use AroundMe to find the nearest McDonalds (or just about anything else)

Jailbreak and use xGPS if you want turn by turn directions.

Would I use an iPhone for like stuff where my life is depending on it, no frikken way.

Re:UH?

[Richy_T]

Wow. I'm shocked to hear it's finally released. It was announced over 18 months ago and I was hot for it then.

Now? A bit too late I think. 18 months is forever when it comes to technology.

Re:UH?

[ToasterMonkey]

So Apple would buy them because they now make a phone with a GPS inside it or a GPS with a phone inside it?

I thiiiiiiiink Apple can figure that much out on their own. It is something new to Garmin though.

Re:UH?

[ToasterMonkey]

Fair enough, but I just can't follow the logic that smartphones will eat away at consumer GPS hardware, therefore Apple should buy a company that makes consumer GPS units, among other things.

You know, the overlapping bits usually go away when that happens, so.. what would Apple do with what's left? Is there something there they could not design themselves, better? I don't think so.

If the argument was "The iPhone has decent calculator software, therefore Apple should buy TI." I might bite, for reasons other than that flawed premise though.

Re:UH?

[BitZtream]

Navionics is rather craptastic and extremely limited compared to even the cheapest consumer grade nautical GPS/depth sounder system purchased at walmart for weekend bass fishing on the local lake. Navionics is a toy at best.

Skycharts does not even come close to ever being a glimmer in the eye of someone who uses a Garmin avionics unit. These units have double EVERYTHING, and sometimes triple. They are dual power, dual display, dual radio, dual buttons, have backup radios for the backup radios. Avionics require a level of reliability that no computer user has ever seen outside of a nuclear planet.

Please don't try to compare iPhone/WinCE apps to commercial navigation equipment. The OS isn't stable enough to even pass the initial checklists, let alone be certified to risk peoples lives with it. The GPS wouldn't qualify as reliable enough for the first generation of these devices from 15 years ago if you ganged 8 of them together in an attempt to get an accurate location.

They are fine for me tracking along in my car where my life doesn't depend on it cause I can pull over, get out of my car and not care. When you are in the air, our out of site of land, only an idiot would consider using a device like this for guidance. I may use my iPhone to mark a fishing hole on the local lake, but I'd never consider it better than dead reckoning based on visual reference, neither would any pilot or commercial fisherman. I'd use an iPhone for navigation if I was lost at sea with no functioning navigation equipment at all. And lets face it, my compass and sextant aren't going to break or have dead batteries any time soon. Of course by the time your commercial unit fails, you iPhone has already be drowned by the sea spray. In the air, you'd fall back to navigating off commercial radio stations in a worst case scenario, but the likely hood of a single radio failing in a dual radio setup even in the smallest of Cessnas is about a thousand times less than that of your iPhone is going to crash randomly.

Re:UH?

[rgviza]

You seem to have missed this part of my post:
"Would I use an iPhone for like stuff where my life is depending on it, no frikken way."

Have a nice day.

Well, maybe one day...

[npcole]

...when there is good, reliable, 3g coverage or better everywhere, and when data charges (especially when roaming abroad) are negligible. But frankly, the places I most need GPS are where coverage is poor and roaming charges are high.

Re:Well, maybe one day...

[Anonymous Coward]

This new Google routing will actually cache locally your route. So unless you're starting out in BFE, more than likely you'll be covered.

Re:Well, maybe one day...

[Beardo the Bearded]

The military uses GPS for targeting. It's not going away until a higher-resolution replacement is found.

The GPS consumer market is a great way for the manufacturers to ditch the receivers that don't pass military QC.

Also, like you say, the most important places to have GPS are places where there isn't cell coverage. They still sell satellite phones for a reason. Not everyone used GPS to get to the store.

Re:Well, maybe one day...

[cheesybagel]

It is not the GPS satellite constellation that will be replaced, but the standalone consumer GPS navigation devices. Once every cellphone comes with GPS facilities and navigation software, who needs to buy standalone units from TomTom or Garwin? Smartphones have been taking market from PDA companies like Palm for years now. GPS navigation is just the next application to be done by smartphones instead of custom hardware.

I still see a market for standalone units embedded in cars, much like car radios come integrated, but dedicated portable GPS devices are going the way of the dodo.

Re:Well, maybe one day...

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey, there's an app ^W^W a map for that.

Re:Well, maybe one day...

[rotide]

I don't think so. Frankly, I enjoy having a phone that is small-ish and clam shell design.

But even if I liked having an iPhone size screen on my phone, I still want something easily readable. As it stands, the iPhone has what, a 3.5" screen? I prefer my 4.3" Garmin when it's sitting a few feet away and I still need it to be easily readable.

Yes, phones can be bigger, but do you really want huge phones just so they have the ability for dual use dash GPS use?

Standalone GPS will survive for those that want standalone GPS. Phones may come with it and take a bite out of the standalone market, no doubt, but it won't kill it anymore than TV's with DVD players built in killed the standalone DVD player market (or phones with games killed the hand held game market).

Re:Well, maybe one day...

[killmenow]

In regards to screen size, research is already being done to move user interaction away from screens in general. Think projection, direct retinal display, etc.

Re:Well, maybe one day...

[cheesybagel]

Actually, phones with games have not killed the hand held game market for a couple of practical reasons namely the software platform performance, human interface, developers. Once you start having platforms with larger displays and multi-touch interfaces however, the tables start turning rapidly. Mobile phone GPS has none of those issues.

TV's with builtin DVD players have nothing to do with it.

Re:Well, maybe one day...

[cheesybagel]

IMO the ideal "screen" for in-car GPS is a HUD and several car companies (e.g. BMW) have this as an option for some time. If you want GPS on the go however, such devices would have their uses.

Re:Well, maybe one day...

[Rob Kaper]

...when there is good, reliable, 3g coverage or better everywhere, and when data charges (especially when roaming abroad) are negligible.

Like (North-Western) Europe? Granted, Holland is a small country, but unlimited HSDPA getting me half to two Mb/s, nationwide, for ten euro a month.. sounds like "one day" isn't too far away for some of us.

Re:Well, maybe one day...

[Anonymous Coward]

But frankly, the places I most need GPS are where coverage is poor
Like indoors. (oops, GPS doesn't work well too in that arena).

Re:Well, maybe one day...

[xaxa]

...when there is good, reliable, 3g coverage or better everywhere, and when data charges (especially when roaming abroad) are negligible.

Like (North-Western) Europe? Granted, Holland is a small country, but unlimited HSDPA getting me half to two Mb/s, nationwide, for ten euro a month.. sounds like "one day" isn't too far away for some of us.

What about roaming? There's similarly good 3G coverage and prices in the UK, but (unless I'm out of date) roaming charges abroad are still hideous.

Re:Well, maybe one day...

[joggle]

The military uses GPS for targeting. It's not going away until a higher-resolution replacement is found.

The GPS consumer market is a great way for the manufacturers to ditch the receivers that don't pass military QC.

Also, like you say, the most important places to have GPS are places where there isn't cell coverage. They still sell satellite phones for a reason. Not everyone used GPS to get to the store.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by manufacturers ditching receivers that don't pass military QC. Many GPS manufacturers don't make military-specific GPS receivers at all. The primary difference between a consumer and military receiver is the military receiver can decode the code on the encrypted frequency. However, with the corrections provided by WAAS and with selective availability turned off (as it has been for years now) this isn't that big of a deal if you are in North America.

Regardless, you are talking about two totally different markets. Consumer GPS receivers aren't at all nor ever were designed for military use and aren't being 'ditched'. In addition, consumer research is at times ahead of military research. For example, at a recent GPS expo various manufacturers demonstrated new receivers that could determine accurate positions indoors. Professional GPS receivers (but still not military, so no access to the encrypted code on the second frequency) can now be used to do drive-by surveys in combination with a system of lasers.

Re:Well, maybe one day...

[Dun Malg]

Granted, Holland is a small country

"Small" doesn't even begin to cover it. Holland is roughly half the size of the Los Angeles/Orange County metropolitan area.

Re:Well, maybe one day...

[sabt-pestnu]

Foreground: Cruise missile flying over a dirt track in a desert.

Voiceover: (OnStar) "Turn left in 3 miles."

Re:Well, maybe one day...

[DerekLyons]

The GPS consumer market is a great way for the manufacturers to ditch the receivers that don't pass military QC.

Very, very unlikely. Not only are the military chipsets different (being able to use the P(y) code for example), no manufacturer is going to base his production on an unreliable source. (That is, the number of units which fail QA is a variable.)

Re:Well, maybe one day...

[Anonymous Coward]

Which gibbon modded this up? Cruise missiles have fuck all to do with single purpose consumer GPS units.

Re:Well, maybe one day...

[cerberusss]

Like (North-Western) Europe? Granted, Holland is a small country, but unlimited HSDPA getting me half to two Mb/s, nationwide, for ten euro a month.. sounds like "one day" isn't too far away for some of us.

Hehheh "nationwide"... that totally depends on your provider. You're in a lot of pain if you're on of those T-Mobile customers and can't get 3G outside major cities. Driving from Utrecht to Groningen, there's hardly any 3G coverage.

Re:Well, maybe one day...

[Anonymous Coward]

GPS-on-cellphone doesn't necessarily have to rely on having data connectivity. Someone _could_ make an application that works in standalone mode, either without maps (like my old Garmin eTrex) or by preinstalling maps.

I'm hoping this will get GPS makers to improve the quality of consumer-level standalone devices. It often surprises me how long the GPS unit will take to acquire a signal, and how easily it loses it - even in good conditions. There's probably not room for a good antenna inside a cellphone, but in a dedicated unit...they can do better.

I'm also hoping that we see the end of phone companies limiting the APIs you can use. Phones often have GPS inside - but you can't use the API to talk to it unless the phone company approves your application. Per-month charges for an application are just not acceptable.

Needs internet connection

[sarahbau]

It sounds like the maps will still only be hosted by Google, rather than stored on the device as with standalone GPSs. As long as that's the case, there will probably still be standalone units.

Re:Needs internet connection

[Enry]

I agree. When we go on vacation in central NY (Cooperstown area), the cell reception is pretty spotty, let alone use AGPS. If my maps go away, I'm lost.

Re:Needs internet connection

[Rhaban]

How can this be modded troll?

Re:Needs internet connection

[TheLink]

> If my maps go away, I'm lost.

That reminds me of this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PW1SXDgZieE

Perhaps in the future Google will launch "Google Life Navigation Beta" ;).

Re:Needs internet connection

[norminator]

It's modded troll because the truth is that while all maps are not stored on the unit, maps for the current route are cached locally. As long as you have service when you start driving and you don't go too far out of your way, you'll be fine.

Re:Needs internet connection

[woodchip]

As an iPhone user, this is one of the reasons I give the iPhone four out of five stars. You can't run multiple aps at once, and if you accidentally exit out of your GPS application while driving (which include inbound calls) you lose the cache, and you are now lost unless you have enough cell phone service to download the map again.

Re:Needs internet connection

[Archangel Michael]

Google isn't dumb.

What if you could "preload" maps of areas you are likely to be in ahead of time into your device? My phone (Blackberry 8330) has a microSD card that could hold all the maps of any place I might head to on vacation. In fact, because it is a microSD card, I could preload many cards with maps and have them available.

While I'm sure the early versions of gMaps and gNavigate will not have this available, I would suspect that Google will no doubt figure out that this gaping whole (no goatse here please). Quite frankly though, having GPS on a phone is almost worthless to me, because if I'm in an area with Cell coverage, I'm not lost. And if I am lost, it is because there is no cell coverage.

Just in case my wife is reading /. "NO we're not lost, we're on an adventure and exploring! Isn't this FUN!!!"

Re:Needs internet connection

[spyrochaete]

It'll be an interesting battle of philosophies there. Nobody wants to miss a turn because the Google map didn't download in time, but on the other hand nobody wants to pay $70 to Garmin every time they need to update their maps.

Re:Needs internet connection

[Anonymous Monkey]

Standalone units are great for camping and hiking in areas with no cell phone single. They are dedicated to one thing, so if you only need one thing you can save a lot of hardware space and battery life by having it do just the one thing. They could be even lighter if they only had the on-board storage to hold the maps you need, as opposed to topographical maps of the entire western US, as well as road data and a bunch of other 'white pages' type junk. Also, if you are out in the back woods and your GPS dies because it's wasting it's battery looking for a cell phone signal that is nonexistent you are kinda stuck. (You should always carry a map and a compass, gps isn't the answer for everything). So, yeah, I doubt standalone units are going to die out any time soon.

Re:Needs internet connection

[ColdWetDog]

Then the moderation is wrong. Incorrect fact != troll. (Go read the FAQ again). Additionally, the local cache can be fairly small and the area without adequate cell service rather large giving you a dead zone in the GPS application. It is a big enough problem that the cell phone based GPS services won't replace the stand alone units.

Re:Needs internet connection

[sarahbau]

That will work if you're going from A to B, and have the route planned already. If you're already lost at X, where they don't have 3G, when you decide you need to use the GPS app, you're out of luck.

I personally still wouldn't get a standalone GPS though. For the times when I'm really lost, I still have an atlas in my car. Hopefully Google will update the iPhone map app to allow turn-by-turn as well. Currently it almost requires a copilot to use, but it's still better than having to print directions beforehand.

Re:Needs internet connection

[Andy Dodd]

Google has in theory had the ability to do this on the PC platform for years, but they haven't.

I don't expect to ever see the ability to install a full Google Maps database to an SD card. Until that happens (which I don't think will happen), TomTom and Garmin will always have a place.

Re:Needs internet connection

[Hognoxious]

Such a thing is certainly possible, that's how Ovi maps works (I use it on a Nokia E71), but google seem to have a religious doctine of "thou shalt be always connected".

Re:Needs internet connection

[Whorhay]

Exactly. I'm a bit suprised there isn't an open sourced repository of maps out there already. We could then just make an app to tell you where you are on that map for most every GPS enabled device.

Re:Needs internet connection

[SilentElectro]

Because paying $70+ a month to your carrier is so much better?

Re:Needs internet connection

[spyrochaete]

Governments ought to provide maps free of charge to the public. Our taxes paid for them so they're public domain.

Re:Needs internet connection

[blacksmith_tb]

Yes, that would be a good idea, wouldn't it? On Android, there's a usable offline GPS app that uses OSM data called Mapdroyd.

Re:Needs internet connection

[thePowerOfGrayskull]

It's modded troll because the truth is that while all maps are not stored on the unit, maps for the current route are cached locally. As long as you have service when you start driving and you don't go too far out of your way, you'll be fine.

Except that's not what google says:

Google Maps for mobile requires an active data connection at all times. Before you download it, we recommend that you contact your mobile service provider to find out more about the data plans it offers. An unlimited data plan is strongly recommended as continuous Maps usage will use a lot of data.

Re:Needs internet connection

[Anonymous Coward]

Open Street Maps

Re:Needs internet connection

[Anonymous Coward]

Also, if you are out in the back woods and your GPS dies because it's wasting it's battery looking for a cell phone signal that is nonexistent you are kinda stuck.

Let's say you know this. You've already said it, so you obviously already foresee this risk. Anyone who wants a stand-alone GPS device is probably going to be conscious of that too. So what happens? You tell your handheld personal computer to stop trying to find cell phone towers. Either click the X on the phone app to close it, or uncheck the 3G/Edge and 802.11n interfaces in the network control panel, or something like that.

Maybe this is all a question of labeling. Ok, you can still have your stand-alone GPS. But this personal computer is probably going to contain a slot for SIMD chip. If don't want to use it, that's fine. Whether you want to pre-load maps all at once onto its paperclip-weight 8 terabytes flash chip, or have it incrementally fetch maps over some network, is up to you.

Re:Needs internet connection

[hotchai]

Yes, there is: OpenStreetMap. You can help make it better.

Re:Needs internet connection

[farble1670]

It sounds like the maps will still only be hosted by Google, rather than stored on the device as with standalone GPSs. As long as that's the case, there will probably still be standalone units.

true ... but a large percentage of people that have standalone GPS units now would ditch them if they could dump the extra hardware. and that number is going to go up as cell service improves. even if you don't buy into "large percentage", even 10% is enough to make companies like Garmin start to sweat.

Re:Needs internet connection

[StormCrow]

They could be even lighter if they only had the on-board storage to hold the maps you need, as opposed to topographical maps of the entire western US, as well as road data and a bunch of other 'white pages' type junk.

When a microSD card can hold all the map data you could possibly need, I really doubt that weight considerations are a reason to strip down the size of a mapping dataset anymore.

Re:Needs internet connection

[Anonymous Monkey]

Yeah, we can make it so the GPS lasts longer, but do you want lots of people out without the smarts to bring a paper map and a magnetic compas out in the bush with their iPhone and an 'never-lost toppo app'?

People think 'ohh I can't get lost, I have a GPS(tm) I can try something exciting like explore that canyon' and then they get stuck, lose their single, and end up needing rescue. When if they were smart they would stick to a well marked trail.

At least if some one gose out and buys a quality GPS unit (they are not all the same) before they do something stupid they might survive a bit longer without rescue. Basically I'm hoping the nice sales people tell the customer that they are stupid that they should not forget this on the trail.

Then again, Lunchbox the Cadaver Dog says even smart people can be tripped up by depending on electronics.

Re:Needs internet connection

[Anonymous Monkey]

Yeah, your right. That was a stupid thing to say. How about I claim that flash memory sucks battery life to save face...Yeah that's it. It's a battery life thing!

Re:Needs internet connection

[Smurf]

Actually, no. If you are using the "Maps" app that is included, you can exit the app, use several apps in the mean time and return to Maps days later and it will immediately return to wherever you left it. If you were following directions, the route will still be there at the last step where you left it (although your current location will have changed, of course). You won't have to download anything again until you need new tiles.

And if you are using one of the dedicated GPS apps, well that's one advantage of those apps: the maps are stored locally.

Computer

[conureman]

I don't want to talk to a computer unless it has Majel Roddenberry's voice.

Re:Computer

[e2d2]

(picking up mouse and talking into it) "Computer?"

Oh, a keyboard. How quaint.

Re:Computer

[Lord Ender]

TomToms allow you to use "community" voice packs. You can set your GPS to sound like GLaDOS, Slingblade, or John Cleese. There may be voice packs which sound like the Star Trek computer, and if not, you just need to find the right woman and chain her in your basement until she reads the list of phrases into a microphone. Easy peasy.

Re:Computer

[Anonymous Coward]

How the heck is this offtopic?!

Mods must be under the influence of spores, or something...

Hard to monetize a free service

[rxan]

GPS is a free service. It's no wonder that it would become hard to make money off of it after awhile. At least Tom Tom and Garmin aren't crying for a bailout.

Re:Hard to monetize a free service

[Nethemas the Great]

You clearly haven't been paying attention to the bottled water market...

Re:Hard to monetize a free service

[rxan]

Because it should be free to have large ships truck it up to the Arctic circle, grab chunks of ice, and haul it back.

Re:Hard to monetize a free service

[Enry]

The GPS signals are free. What costs money is having accurate maps and intelligent routing software and making it all fit on a portable device. Google gets around that by having the maps and brains located on a server and relying on quality cell reception to get the information to the (dumb) client.

Re:Hard to monetize a free service

[Andy Dodd]

GPS is a free service. You can get GPS receivers dirt cheap (hey, while the signals are free, receiver hardware still costs a little money), but all they tell you is your latitude/longitude.

Knowing your lat/long is honestly not that useful unless you have data to reference it against. Useful cartographic data costs money.

USGS maps don't provide routing info.
The US Census Bureau TIGER database has streets but not turn restriction info and severe accuracy problems in some areas.

So when you pay for GPS "services" from most providers, what you are paying for is a mapping/routing solution and access to an accurate dataset that allows for mapping/routing.

Re:Hard to monetize a free service

[bleh-of-the-huns]

No, because Aquafina, a Pepsi product, is actually just tap water run through a filter and bottled.. and sold for an exorbitant price..

See the following link http://consumerist.com/5392454/misplaced-letter-costs-pepsico-126-billion-in-bottled-water-lawsuit

Re:Hard to monetize a free service

[EastCoastSurfer]

Well so is Dasani and so what. There is money in providing a convenience to people. You see this all over the grocery store. Buy skinless, boneless chicken breast and you pay for the convenience for not having to do the work yourself of buying a whole chicken and skinning and boning it.

It's also misleading to simply say it's filtered tap water. I saw a show on Dasani and it's filtered so well and becomes so pure it doesn't taste good to most people. So, if you look on the bottle you'll see that they ADD back in minerals and such to make it taste good again.

Re:Hard to monetize a free service

[Dun Malg]

Yeah, they all do that. I work in nasty, stinky downtown Los Angeles, east of downtown proper. We're right next to the Coca-Cola bottling facility. I see truckloads of bottled Dasani water leave, but never see a tanker truck bring water in. They're just selling the same filtered municipal water they use to make soda, only without the CO2 and flavored corn syrup.

Re:Hard to monetize a free service

[Dun Malg]

The US Census Bureau TIGER database has streets but not turn restriction info

My Garmin Nuvi doesn't have a very good grasp of turn restrictions either. It's constantly telling me to turn left across Santa Monica Blvd through the middle of a curbed, impassable median that was built in 2003. Likewise it wants me to turn left off Fairfax onto Wilshire, where it's been NO LEFT TURN for decades. Street map data just isn't all that great in general. What you're paying for is having it massaged into a format your device can use.

wait...

[sandwichbutton]

does this mean that using the north star for gps is obsolete then?

Re:wait...

[killmenow]

Yes, but using the Fist of the North Star for ass-kicking is still okay.

Re:wait...

[eXFeLoN]

only during the day.

Not yet

[Thyamine]

I didn't read the article, of course, but right away my first thought is trying to use the GPS and be on the phone at the same time would be a problem in an all-in-one style device. Of course you shouldn't be on the phone (technically, perhaps), but we do it anyways. At least I do. I won't speak for the rest of you since I know at least one person will say that of course they never do and I'm evil for doing it. But I know I've used my GPS and phone at the same time in general, let alone finding some difficult place that isn't fully locatable in GPS. Back roads, unlisted roads, mismatched turns, etc.

Re:Not yet

[Anonymous Coward]

Perhaps you would be interested in this nifty feature called "speakerphone"?

Re:Not yet

[rickb928]

As opposed to using the standalone GPS while you are on your phone.

Yep, the silence is deafening.

Re:Not yet

[bkr1_2k]

Why shouldn't I be on the phone talking to someone giving while using the GPS to find their location in the woods? There are plenty of examples for your scenario that don't include driving. This is one of the best points that can be made for the survival of the market.

Re:Not yet

[Anonymous Coward]

I didn't read the article, of course, but right away my first thought is trying to use the GPS and be on the phone at the same time would be a problem in an all-in-one style device. Of course you shouldn't be on the phone (technically, perhaps), but we do it anyways. At least I do. I won't speak for the rest of you since I know at least one person will say that of course they never do and I'm evil for doing it. But I know I've used my GPS and phone at the same time in general, let alone finding some difficult place that isn't fully locatable in GPS. Back roads, unlisted roads, mismatched turns, etc.

Why shouldn't I be on the phone? Why have it then? Are you assuming the only time I would use a GPS is if I'm driving?

Re:Not yet

[mcgrew]

Dude, I hope you're not driving when you're using your phone and GPS at the same time, because either one by itself is more than enough of a distraction.

Re:Not yet

[Anonymous Coward]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with being on the phone and using a GPS unit at the same time. You must be referring to being on the phone and driving at the same time. Standalone GPS units are for much more than just telling you when to turn while driving. They are quite handy for heading out anywhere on earth not just the road system.

I'm sure smartphones will dent the market for GPS units, but it won't eliminate them. I imagine Gramin and Tom Tom will rely more on rugged outdoor units and larger screen units for permanent mounting in cars, boats, rvs, etc. and their lower end consumer models will take the big hit.

Re:Not yet

[BitZtream]

You are evil, you could kill some one driving while talking on the phone.

I do it too.

I am almost as likely to kill someone while not talking on the phone though, so maybe my example isn't the best.

Proposed question is stupid

[Loomismeister]

Will stand alone GPS be killed? Of course not! The military and civil navigation systems use it in stand alone settings and they will continue to do so. GPS can't disappear and the only valid question here is "Would Garmin or TomTom go out of business because of google or android?". The answer is still no because they won't die, and if they do it's not because of google or android alone.

Re:Proposed question is stupid

[Lemmy Caution]

But could Garmin and TomTom shrink by 80 or 90 percent, laying off much of their work force, and then get reduced to selling specialized products to niche markets and falling off the map of mainstream awareness? Yes. Yes, they could.

Re:Proposed question is stupid

[bleh-of-the-huns]

Possibly, but how many people want to spend between $30 to $100 a month extra on top of their voicebill for data service to use that navigation function. That is were stand alone units excel, and why they won't go away.

What I do see happening is that Garmin and TomTom's value added services that they charge (real time traffic, POI updates and reviews, gas prices, etc etc) for will take a serious hit, and probably turned into free products.

The other thing, I have a Garmin, gets real time over the air updates (from terrestrial broadcasters, clearchannel mostly), and it is faily accurate in the DC area, although sometimes behind time wise (new accidents take about 15 to 30 min to get broadcast). Using data on a congested network may result in even further delays of that type of information, and at the same time, I drive fast, Google maps is not always able to keep up and download the additional map pieces fast enough so I find myself driving in a see of grey nothingness.

Also, I would not call Marine and Aeronautical segments niche markets, which I suspect is actually where the GPS companies make more of the profit then from cheap PNDs

Re:Proposed question is stupid

[AF_Cheddar_Head]

So you think 80-90 percent of Garmin's business is consumer level GPS units? I highly doubt that. Garmin was around long before the advent of those boxes you use in your car and will probably survive much longer.

They have the enthusiast market that will plunk down $400 for a water-proof hand-held that will work anywhere in the world, think the middle of Alaska. That market is older than you think.

They have been marketing map databases for longer that you have been alive. That market won't disappear, think Google competitors.

They have the commercial trucking market. They have the marine market.

So no I don't think those shiny little boxes you put in your car equals 90 percent of Garmin.

Re:Proposed question is stupid

[Dun Malg]

Tom Tom, maybe. They seem to make little beyond personal automotive navigators. Garmin has a much larger product line and could probably survive shrinkage of the "in 200 feet, turn left" market.

No.

[0100010001010011]

1) It doesn't work EVERYWHERE. I'm not talking about everywhere with a wireless signal. I'm talking about EVERYWHERE.
2) I'm not going to pay a monthly fee to use something. I paid Microsoft $X for Streets & Trips. It's one of the rare programs that I will spend the time to virtualize. It's gotten me east coast to west coast with only 1 problem, and that was user error (Grand Canyon Park is NOT the same as "Grand Canyon", the geographic center. Though it was an interesting drive into nothing).
3) AT&T is choking hard with a ton of people browsing the web. Imagine if everyone on the road suddenly was streaming a few K/s. It would bring the network to its knees. I somehow doubt that AT&T is going to pull through and upgrade.

Re:No.

[Anonymous Coward]

3) AT&T is choking hard with a ton of people browsing the web. Imagine if everyone on the road suddenly was streaming a few K/s. It would bring the network to its knees. I somehow doubt that AT&T is going to pull through and upgrade.

Dear Android,

Thank you for causing every person and car to stream a few Kb/s constantly and requiring massive infrastructure upgrades.

Your friend,

Cisco Shareholders

Re:No.

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, but the google app caches some tiles, and there are other options which work with completely offline maps:

AndNav for Android

Atlas for iPhone, or if you want turn by turn navigation something like the TomTom app, which also has offline road maps.

Standalone GPS systems are becoming less and less important, and eventually will probably just merge into multifunction devices. The days of Garmin gouging users on every map upgrade and charging lots of standalone units are gone.

Re:No.

[AndrewNeo]

Good thing Droid, the first phone to introduce this turn-by-turn Google Maps, is coming out on Verizon.

Re:No.

[nmos]

1) It doesn't work EVERYWHERE. I'm not talking about everywhere with a wireless signal. I'm talking about EVERYWHERE.

I don't think that'll be a limitation for long. Some smart phones already have real GPS chips rather that just AGPS and there is no reason they couldn't store maps locally. I think the Droid already pre-caches maps along any route you select so it shouldn't be hard to extend that functionality a bit.

 

Re:No.

[Andy Dodd]

I don't know about Android, but for Windows Mobile (and I'm fairly certain iPhone), phones do.

Take a guess who is providing the maps and software for that approach?

Yup, TomTom and Garmin.

Google "Garmin Mobile XT".

In theory Google could offer a solution with a client side full map database, but it would be inconsistent with how they have done business in the past. Android's new mapping solution won't kill TomTom or Garmin for the same reason Google Earth and Google Maps haven't killed products like:
DeLorme Topo USA
DeLorme Street Atlas USA
Microsoft Streets and Trips
etc...

Re:No.

[jfanning]

Uh, AGPS is real GPS. The A stands for Assisted. It just provides a faster method for figuring out which satellites are up, but otherwise it is exactly the same as any other GPS.

Re:No.

[nmos]

Uh, AGPS is real GPS. The A stands for Assisted. It just provides a faster method for figuring out which satellites are up, but otherwise it is exactly the same as any other GPS.

Most dumb phones I've seen claim to have AGPS and REQUIRE that assistance (access to the cell network) in order to work. Am I using the wrong term for that type of GPS?

Re:No.

[nightfire-unique]

...and that was user error (Grand Canyon Park is NOT the same as "Grand Canyon", the geographic center. Though it was an interesting drive into nothing).

Oh dear! I certainly hope you don't mean nothing as in "OH MY GOD! WHERE DID THE GROUND GO?!"

Re:No.

[Threni]

4) too complicated. People who spend a lot of time using computers always forget the basics. Non-geeks want stuff that works. They want to turn it on, with an on button, and see where they are on a map, then press a button or two to enter a postcode or whatever and see a route.

Using google maps (for example) - well ,first you have to somehow find the app and load it. You have to wait 30 seconds (on my htc touch diamond) for it to find the gps satellites (if you're lucky - you can speed that up by running another application to download satellite data which, if you're lucky, works). Oh, and you'd better stand outside for that - it's not going to work indoors (unlike dedicated satnavs) unless you live in a tent. Then you have to use crap-internet speeds to load (if you're lucky) map data onto your phone, deal with the interface (nowhere near as simple to use as dedicated satnav). All this stuff is fine if you have patience, already have the phone, don't want to pay for satnav hardware etc. But for people (like my parents) who want to get from a to b then dicking about with all this crap is just a joke they're not going to entertain.

Re:No.

[Lord Ender]

Even dedicated GPS navigators have monthly fees. TomTom charges $40 per year ($3/month) for their devices.

Of course, the Motorola Droid data plan is $30/month by itself, so the TomTom is an OoM cheaper, but still, it's not free*.

* Yes, you could in theory keep using the original set of maps forever, but that would be stupid.

Re:No.

[Anonymous Coward]

Do you have any idea how long it takes them to build roads in my part of the country?

Re:No.

[Lord Ender]

Do you have any idea how long it takes them to build roads in my part of the country?

Yes. And some of those roads have been in production for many years already. Furthermore, your GPS is most useful when you aren't in "your part of the country." Missing appointments or burning gas driving around in circles because your GPS didn't know about the new interchange: that's stupid.

And there's more: GPSs are quite useful when looking for ATMs, Hotels, restaurants, and other businesses. Those come and go quite frequently in "your part of the country."

In conclusion: it would be stupid to rely on years-old maps.

Re:No.

[ShakaUVM]

>>I'm not going to pay a monthly fee to use something.

It's free.

>>AT&T is choking hard with a ton of people browsing the web

It's Verizon.

(Which makes statement #1 so amazing to actually be true. They are firmly within the anal-violation school of retail pricing.)

Re:No.

[Anonymous Coward]

The Nokia 5800 XpressMusic phone stores as much of the maps as it can fit in the memory space you have allocated to it.

Tiny nitpick, though. Assisted GPS is not an alternative to GPS, because you imply it is somehow inferior. It is, in fact, superior. It uses the cell phone network to get a better GPS bootstrap. The reason you might think that assisted GPS is inferior is because of the devices it has been put on. Those devices would be even _worse_ without assisted gps.

Re:No.

[Anonymous Coward]

It's free.... with a data plan or cell phone plan.

Re:No.

[drinkypoo]

OK, I just got a Magellan 4210 for $99 (cash impulse buy, not a bad price for what it is) and it came with 2007 maps so I ordered 2009 "on sale" for fifty bucks. I will guess that somewhere in 2H or perhaps Q4 2010 that the 2010 mapset will become available for the same price. It comes on SD card and I got it with free shipping so I figure I'm a winner. Anyway, I got exactly what I want (except it would be nice to be able to use it while it is charging from PC) in terms of form factor and feature set and I could elect to just skip map updating until 2011 if I liked, and pay that much less.

Google would be appealing if I could use Earth anywhere, even in a limited kind of "you are [near] here" mode. Maps with navigation is interesting but insufficient.

The really cool part about standalone GPS is that you can choose to stop updating, and just choose to start again. You can resell the unit with whatever map set is on it for whatever the unit is worth with that particular map set, and it's not dependent on a contract. This real resale value is, uh, valuable ;)

Re:No.

[jfanning]

All A-GPS units that I know off still have a fully functional GPS chip in them. The biggest problem with GPS is the initial lock on (cold start) to the satellites. This can be made much faster by giving some information on either a rough estimate of the current location or the positioning information for the satellites. In either case you need some kind of data connection to get the information. Either to get a position based on the visible cell sites or to download the satellite positioning information. The end result is that if you have coverage you probably get a lock in under 20 seconds. If you don't have coverage (and you haven't used GPS for a while) then it might take several minutes. But it will still work eventually. Once you have a lock the A-GPS is working like any other GPS. Some stand-alone GPS units also are actually A-GPS. They may use your phone via Bluetooth to do the same thing or they may be updated via USB with the latest satellite positions. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assisted_GPS As far as I know all Nokia phones have full GPS capability with the A-GPS function provided by a server (supl.nokia.com). You can change this in the phone settings though as other providers could supply the service as well. http://www.openmobilealliance.org/Technical/release_program/supl_v2_0.aspx

Re:No.

[ShakaUVM]

>>It's free.... with a data plan or cell phone plan.

Versus $8/day even with a cell or data plan, which is what they charge on my current phone.

Missing Factor...

[swanzilla]

Will Google and Android Kill Standalone GPS?

Will Google and Android and Verizon Kill Standalone GPS?

Re:Missing Factor...

[Anonymous Coward]

False.

Verizon will actually prevent the standalone GPS from being replaced,, by making its customers pay a monthly fee to use GPS on their phones. They kinda already do that...

Re:Missing Factor...

[TheTrollToll]

So much of this speculation is pointless, because you can bet that Verizon will do what it takes to kill free GPS on their android. I have never seen a company try to squeeze so much out of their customers by locking down standard products. I joined them because my family did but i am having serious regrets now.

Re:Missing Factor...

[Anonymous Coward]

Will Google and Android Kill Standalone GPS?

Will Google and Android and Verizon Kill Standalone GPS in the US?

There, fixed it for ya. Your point is quite valid, but please bear in mind some countries have cell phone networks that don't suck, have already established 3.5G (HSPA) and have actually started rolling out 4G while the US has only just realised what a 3G network is for.

Re:Missing Factor...

[Dun Malg]

Verizon isn't the only carrier with an Android 2.0 OS phone, they are just the first.

Will replace my Garmin when ...

[Lemming Mark]

I'll personally replace my outdoors-oriented Garmin when I can get a bicycle-mountable, rucksack-clippable, fully waterproof (i.e. submerge for a significant length of time, not just splashproof), robust and accurate GPS device. That doesn't cost more than I paid for the Garmin in the first place. And can run on AA batteries for long periods of time, so I can swap batteries when they run down.

In fact, I probably still won't replace my Garmin even if they match those features. If I'm trekking around outdoors with the thing, it's nice to know that losing or smashing it won't result in the loss of my phone, address book, PDA, MP3 and video player, camera ... I like the idea of having everything available in one device but for some applications it's nicer not to have all my eggs in one valuable (in monetary, information and functionality terms) device.

For stuff like car satnav devices I can see GPS-enabled phones making more of a dent, since the top of a car dashboard is a much friendlier environment for a phone. Moreover it's somewhere you'd probably want a phone anyhow, so you can use it handsfree, listen to music, etc. The really slick car satnav designs are integrated into the dash, though. Given we've already seen ipod docks built into cars, maybe in the future we're looking at a much more full-featured dock that'll connect the phone to audio, dash display, GPS antenna, etc. On the other hand, given computers are cheap and get cheaper, maybe that'll be unnecessary as the car will have bucketloads of integrated computers already.

Re:Will replace my Garmin when ...

[Speare]

Agreed.

I've owned a Garmin for well over a decade, and I've not seen one app on any phone that could match it for functionality. All the apps-on-phones will show you a map (usually network scraped from Google Maps or the like), but very few will have a single-key "Mark This Spot" (aka Man Overboard), or an easy Waypoint database, or easy Routing between waypoints, or measure useful things like Velocity Made Good (velocity towards target, not velocity in your current heading). There's a way to edit some of this in Google's "My Maps" Editor on the Android, and it's cool that it shows up in your PC without syncing, but it is cumbersome as hell. I've seen little support for logging tracks to a simple file format you can retrieve for analysis (like geotagging photos from non-phone cameras), because phones and phone apps don't like to support file systems. When GPS apps actually perform better than GPS units at common GPS tasks, then I'll be interested.

Re:Will replace my Garmin when ...

[Anonymous Coward]

I'll personally replace my outdoors-oriented Garmin when I can get a bicycle-mountable, rucksack-clippable, fully waterproof (i.e. submerge for a significant length of time, not just splashproof), robust and accurate GPS device. That doesn't cost more than I paid for the Garmin in the first place. And can run on AA batteries for long periods of time, so I can swap batteries when they run down.

Yeah I had one of those until I let the batteries explode in it. It was a Magellan SporTrak or something like that. The thing cost me $140 (it was a discontinued model) and was IPX7 waterproof which is 3 meters for 30 minutes, you could get a mountain bike handlebar clip for it, I dont know about a belt clip but the strap on it could be looped onto a belt loop or backpack frame easily enough. It ran on 2 or 4 AA batteries for a good length of time to. The only thing it didnt have was voice instructions because it was a hiking/outdoors model and not an automotive model because it was before the automotive ones got popular.

Re:Will replace my Garmin when ...

[Andy Dodd]

Yup. Best device for the job.

Despite having a full standalone install of TomTom on my phone, I still have a complete standalone vehicle navigation device (running iGO 8), AND I also have a Garmin Oregon for when I leave the road.

Re:Will replace my Garmin when ...

[Buelldozer]

Bingo! If you weren't already at +5 I'd mod you up.

This isn't the first time this story has come around and it's as STUPID now as it was then. These 'analysts', and I use that term loosely, entirely ignore the outdoors-man market where a rugged GPS is mandatory. An iPhone or Android phone is not an acceptable replacement for a device that is waterproof, floats, extremely accurate, uses commonly available AA batteries so you can pack spares, vibration proof, and lasts for DAYS on a single set.

GPS enabled phones are not going to replace a standard outdoor GPS any time soon, if ever.

Re:Will replace my Garmin when ...

[Dare nMc]

Not really about when are we going to throw away our Garmins. It's about garming charging for maps, road construction, safety camera info, updates. I was debating about paying the $150 for lifetime maps for my Nuvi. But it's locked to a single device, not editable in anyway and pricey (on top of the $180 single use device.) All thoughts of purchasing that are now gone for this phone. I will keep my garmin Vista (or replace with similar) for riding the quads/motorcycles/mountain bikes where there are no roads (sand dunes, changing trails.)
So knocking 15%+ off of garmin stock price seams correct, their overall growth in GPS is very unlikely (but lower volume/higher priced boating, fishing, offroad GPS growth is likely to stay.)

Re:Will replace my Garmin when ...

[sparkchaser]

What model is this? It sounds like exactly what I am looking for.

Re:Will replace my Garmin when ...

[Lemming Mark]

It's a GPS60, I believe. But it won't suit everyone - it doesn't have route finding and it's somewhat limited by having a small (non-expandable) storage and a monochrome display. Some of the more expensive outdoorsy models rectify these faults. I never really looked into putting maps on the thing - I assume you can do that even on the GPS60 if they'll fit into storage. I mostly use it for extracting distance / time / speed statistics whilst I'm out and then getting track logs of my journey when I get home (I use it for OpenStreetMap stuff).

I was going to buy online but ended up going to an outdoors shop in town, who gave me a load of advice on receiver and antenna quality that I wouldn't have realised if I'd just purchased from e.g. Amazon. (assuming what they told me was correct of course! My experience with the device and their customer service leaves me no reason to doubt them).

Re:Will replace my Garmin when ...

[th1nk]

I've owned a Garmin for well over a decade, and I've not seen one app on any phone that could match it for functionality.

Well of course you haven't..the only one that comes close was just announced. The point is that phones are rapidly heading in that direction.

Re:Will replace my Garmin when ...

[Anonymous Coward]

I had the same thought about the price of Garmin maps for my handleld (~$100) but then I found out that OpenStreetMaps can be downloaded into the GPS!

Re:Will replace my Garmin when ...

[Anonymous Coward]

All the apps-on-phones will show you a map (usually network scraped from Google Maps or the like), but very few will have a single-key "Mark This Spot" (aka Man Overboard), or an easy Waypoint database, or easy Routing between waypoints, or measure useful things like Velocity Made Good (velocity towards target, not velocity in your current heading)

It sounds like you're saying that software is unable to accrue features. Actually, it's worse than that. It sounds like you're saying that software is unable to accrue features which apparently matter to the market and influence what widgets people end up buying.

If those features are important (i.e. that's what it takes to get people's money), then the only thing stopping some random python programmer from adding them in a day or two, would be patents or some bullshit like that. Well, either that, or failure to be aware of Garmin's marketing secrets -- but you just blew that by posting a desired feature list to slashdot.

Re:Will replace my Garmin when ...

[Anonymous Coward]

FYI Garmin holds back the routing information, so you can't use openStreetMaps for "Turn left in 500 feet" only "heres the location, find it yourself."

Interesting note about the demography:

[Anonymous Coward]

Google's set of software does not facilitate navigation on seas in any way at all, which is a business area that f.e. Garmin is one of the top actors in, and most likely will stay there unless Google would happen to introduce nautical charts (AND keep them up-to-date).

And, yes, there are people who fare on the seas.

Re:Interesting note about the demography:

[Nethemas the Great]

ahem... ge ography

Re:Interesting note about the demography:

[Anonymous Coward]

And, yes, there are people who fare on the seas.

There's a term for that. Boat Drivers, I think.

Re:Interesting note about the demography:

[Anonymous Coward]

no, "dem ography"; as in, the demography (the statistics, nature, distribution etc.) of the possible uses of these products.

Re:Interesting note about the demography:

[Anonymous Coward]

You understand the Greek root "demos", right? Or not.

Re:Interesting note about the demography:

[Hognoxious]

No, the statistics, nature, distribution etc.) of the possible users

Not with current battery life and robustness

[Anonymous Coward]

Phones are relatively fragile, and their batteries are relatively feeble; by comparison my hiking GPS takes two easy-swapped AA's and gives 12-16 hours of use from them, and it takes all the abuse I can think to give it.

I wouldn't want to risk my phone-GPS running down my phone-phone: that's a safety fail just waiting to happen.

These arguments don't apply to driving GPS, where there's power available, or mooching-round-town GPS, where trips are short and safety non-critical. So smartphone GPS won't kill the dedicated device, but it'll reduce it back to a niche item for outdoorsy types.

Re:Not with current battery life and robustness

[slim]

I agree, but I think driving GPS represent the bulk of the consumer GPS business.

GPSs dedicated to marine or wilderness use are pretty safe, precisely because they're not quite as mainstream.

Re:Not with current battery life and robustness

[Sloppy]

my hiking GPS takes two easy-swapped AA's and gives 12-16 hours of use from them, and it takes all the abuse I can think to give it.

It sounds like you like that computer, and I can see why.

Do you know what that tells me? It tells me some people at Nokia, Apple, Samsung etc ought to be nervous at the thought of your GPS manufacturer spending an extra $10 to throw in a glue logic chip, a SIMD card reader, and a microphone.

I wouldn't want to risk my phone-GPS running down my phone-phone: that's a safety fail just waiting to happen.

If you insist on leaving both apps (the "where am I?" app and the "talk to people far away" app) running at the same time, then just carry 2 more AA batteries. I bet that's smaller than a whole extra device.

Re:Not with current battery life and robustness

[farble1670]

I wouldn't want to risk my phone-GPS running down my phone-phone: that's a safety fail just waiting to happen.

you can carry two devices and two batteries. or one device and two batteries. iphones have battery packs, and most other cell phones have user-serviceable batteries. and, if you point is that you wouldn't be carrying your cell phone, then put it in airplane mode and you get zero drain from the cell phone aspect of the device.

Android GPS - works for US only

[ramunas]

Here's my problem with the android GPS, and for that matter with cell phone google maps - it all works perfectly when you live in a huge country, and where the possibility that you might need to use the navigation features offered by GPS without ever leaving the country is fairly large - hence you are not really worried about the data charges, since you are using the same operator.

BUT. If like me, you live in a small European country, where within the country there is practically no need for the GPS because you know most of the country by heart. Thus the only reason for using a car GPS navigation is when you leave the country. But that's exactly the moment the huge roaming data charges begin to apply. Therefore the only practically viable option unless you don't care how much you spend on your phone costs is by using an offline solution like a Tom-tom or Garmin device.

Re:Android GPS - works for US only

[mccalli]

If like me, you live in a small European country, where within the country there is practically no need for the GPS because you know most of the country by heart. Thus the only reason for using a car GPS navigation is when you leave the country.

What about cities you've never been to before, or even just areas or shops close by that you've never been to before? Or what if you're in a place you know perfectly well how to drive to, but don't know where the nearest doctor/petrol station/whatever is - ie. a POI which will be marked on your GPS?

I live in the UK and yep, I found my standalone TomTom very useful when driving in France. But I also find it useful when I go about four miles away into the nearest town if I'm looking for a shop on a street I've never been to before. Or fifty miles to some city I can drive to the centre of but have no idea where the particular concert hall or whatever is. I also live close to London and work in there - the only people with a complete knowledge of how to drive round London are the London black cab drivers who've done The Knowledge test - mere mortals such as myself don't stand a chance of ever learning it all.

There's a lot more use for a GPS than just switching countries or driving huge distances.

Cheers,
Ian

Re:Android GPS - works for US only

[AndrewNeo]

Why does it work for the US only? Google Maps are most certainly available in other countries, and just because you have no need for a GPS doesn't discount it. TomTom is based out of Europe, for one.

Re:Android GPS - works for US only

[slim]

If like me, you live in a small European country, where within the country there is practically no need for the GPS because you know most of the country by heart.

How small? Monaco?

There are two situations where I feel GPS is useful for driving:

  1. For the last few miles of your journey to an unfamiliar town. I can easily find my way from London to Manchester without GPS. Sat Nav is a big help finding my way to a specific street address once I'm there.

  2. For finding back-roads, when the route you know is blocked. There's really only one 'A' road leading from my parent's home in West Wales, to the Midlands. When a motorbike accident caused the police to close it for several hours, satnav was able to guide me over the hills on single-track unpaved roads, around the blockage.

I really can't think of a European country small enough that you could know it well enough to avoid these benefits.

Re:Android GPS - works for US only

[ramunas]

Well it works best for US, and other large countries where data plans don't become the main issue when going somewhere interesting in the sense that you might need to use your gps device.

The reasons why it fails to be of any use to me and most people who live in similarly sized countries are given in the original post :)

Re:Android GPS - works for US only

[middlemen]

the London black cab drivers

Hey! It's African American dude!

Re:Android GPS - works for US only

[Gudeldar]

Unless you live in Liechtenstein or Vatican City I have a hard time believing you've memorized every single road in your country.

Re:Android GPS - works for US only

[blincoln]

it all works perfectly when you live in a huge country

Actually, it doesn't work perfectly even then.

I have a G1. I live in Seattle. A few months ago I drove to Yellowstone. I had only roaming coverage (IE no data use without paying an exorbitant fee) east of Spokane, Washington (so I didn't even make it beyond the borders of my own state). That situation did not change for the rest of my trip. IE T-Mobile has no coverage anywhere that I traveled in Idaho, Montana, or Wyoming. And yes, I know there was literally no coverage because I have the weather widget that updates its display every time it can using the name of the nearest city. It was "Spokane, WA" through all three of those states.

There are a lot of cool things about the G1, but if you ask me it and its software were designed by a bunch of city slickers who never venture more than a few meters beyond their home, the office, and/or their favourite coffee shop.

The caching thing that's allegedly a new feature is a good first step, but I'd much rather just shell out ~$50/year and have all of the map and business data stored in flash memory. For example, on my way back from Yellowstone I stopped in Bozeman. It sure would have been nice if I could have looked up local businesses. I ended up using the Yellow Pages at a gas station.

Re:Android GPS - works for US only

[mccalli]

>> ...the London black cab drivers...
> ...Hey! It's African American dude!

You know, I knew somebody was going to say that...

For those who don't know (and think you did know and are just making the joke...), a black cab driver here literally refers to the colour of the cab, and is used as opposed to mini-cab drivers who don't have the same rules and regulations (in this case, have no need to pass The Knowledge).

Cheers,
Ian

Re:Android GPS - works for US only

[cylcyl]

Or you can rent a car which has one?

Re:Android GPS - works for US only

[tokul]

BUT. If like me, you live in a small European country, where within the country there is practically no need for the GPS because you know most of the country by heart.

You don't need GPS, if you don't go to other places. Plus TomTom's coverage of Latvia is worse than coverage of Estonia or Lithuania.

Latvia is only a bit smaller than Lithuania. Lithuanians need navigation based on GPS, if they drive a lot around the country. Navigation helps, if they go to other major town and have to find some obscure location there.

Re:Android GPS - works for US only

[phision]

Therefore the only practically viable option unless you don't care how much you spend on your phone costs is by using an offline solution like a Tom-tom or Garmin device.

Or use software for a smartphone with pre-loaded maps. The only disadvantage I can think of is the low accuracy the smartphone's GPS chips have.

Re:Android GPS - works for US only

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm in a similar situation at the moment - I regard my phone as a $5 "get yourself unlost" device, because that's how much it costs me to download a map's worth of image. That's enough for what I'm doing - I've only used it that way twice, on my current trip - but if I were doing much more than that I'd want a standalone offline device.

Re:Android GPS - works for US only

[Anonymous Coward]

the London black cab drivers

Hey! It's African American dude!

Why would an African American be driving cabs in London?

Re:Android GPS - works for US only

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

the London black cab drivers

Hey! It's African American dude!

It's African Englo ya git!

Re:Android GPS - works for US only

[NiteShaed]

Maybe he followed the werewolf

Re:Android GPS - works for US only

[tknd]

Everyone is misunderstanding something. The phone hardware comes with GPS functionality. Android is just the OS and it just so happens google is now going to bundle a GPS aware google maps with directions. This doesn't mean that you can't have an android device with GPS and GPS software that doesn't require google maps or any network connectivity for that matter. In fact you can go on the android market today and find many GPS apps that do not require google maps to function.

I own a mytouch 3G android phone and while I was in Japan I didn't have cell phone functionality (locked SIM card). However, I was still able to use the wifi and GPS functions on the device. You can also set your phone to NOT roam when you reach an area without service. Android is a lot more configurable out of the box than people here imply.

Re:Android GPS - works for US only

[Falconhell]

Anyone remember the Spin City episode where the
token black/gay guy changed the spell checker on the office computer to automatically replace every use of the word black with African American.

They then sent out 500 invites to an African American tie dinner (-:

Not until it stores the maps local on the device

[Sandbags]

All well and good it's free, and even if I could pre-plan a route and store that info on the deivce, it still creates big headaches when i can't access a cellular network data service and I want to search for something.

Also, my understanding is this is at best a basic GPS, turn by turn with limited lane identification, but no real-time route updates, automatic traffic reporting, etc.

For the casual user on their once or twice a year road trip to a popular destination, it's fine. For people who spend their lives on the road, it's not good enough. We'll see version 2...

Also, I'm SURE Garmin, TomTom, and the others all have some hard core patents in place ensuring noone's going to offer a competing system at better pricing.

May replace the base OS but not the devices.

[HockeyPuck]

Maybe Garmin/TomTom will replace their current OS with Android. However, I don't see any outdoorsman/athlete tossing their Garmin device for a GPS enabled cell phone. Why? Garmin devices are purpose built, they can be strapped to my wrist, my arm, they are waterproof, I can easily mount it to the handlebars of my mountain/road bike, they have heart rate monitors built in, I can attach a secondary transponder to my dogs when they are out herding so I know where they are.

I also love the fact that they can download maps from the National Geographic Topographic Map Series. Now there's nothing that would stop someone from writing a android app to interface with these maps. But currently google maps doesn't help me out on the trail.

Garmin is a brand and people buy their products for the features, nobody buys Garmin b/c of the underlying OS.

Re:May replace the base OS but not the devices.

[swb]

I'm actually pretty underwhelmed by the maps in standalone GPS. I bought a DeLorme PN40; the maps are OK in the mapping application but I found it significantly less useful than google maps on my iPhone as a mapping device.

It was useful ATVing in the mountains of Arizona because the maps had the trails marked, but many of the other map features (terrain, etc) were plain hard to use due to the low-res screen and the chunky maps. I don't think it was a DeLorme issue, either, I looked at the other big brands before buying.

Even when planning trips, I found Google Maps 10x easier to use and the terrain feature far more useful than the topo lines included in the maps.

My dream is something like the iPhone in terms of usability (touchscreen, big, hi-res display, color) with maybe a couple more dedicated buttons and of course ruggedized to PN-40 standards, but with the visual quality of Google maps (cached locally to flash, of course).

Re:May replace the base OS but not the devices.

[drunkenoafoffofb3ta]

At least with TomTom, the underlying OS is Linux anyway. (Hence all that hoo-hah with Microsoft over the FAT patents. TomTom was using FAT on their solid state media).

Re:May replace the base OS but not the devices.

[drinkypoo]

Google is going to have the ultimate mapset sooner or later because they're actually capturing imagery of everything. With some after-the-fact processing they can learn things about even the road surface that other mapping companies won't know for years. That, combined with doing all the processing on the cloud gives them an unparalleled ability to construct a useful route, at least in theory. (Many are singing their praises; I have found them competent but have never had reason to complain about a contemporary and updated Streets and Trips, either.) So far I have been most pleased with Garmin Nuvi; a friend's example thereof led us on a really beautiful back road with which I am not familiar in an area in which I've driven many times, which came out directly in my desired destination. I just got a Magellan Maestro 4210 and haven't really exercised it; I used it on a trip to Ukiah today, but just to find out that at a displayed 61 MPH I'm going about 67 with my new tires :)

Re:May replace the base OS but not the devices.

[BitZtream]

DeLorme is the ghetto of the GPS world.

Geocaching? Hiking?

[wandazulu]

There are plenty of reasons that a route-based GPS is not all-encompassing (pun intended); a lot of places are not available by road, or the road ended long ago and now the GPS is saying you're essentially in a brown or green void.

I can see that this is not necessarily ...mainstream..., but I've found that for hiking, geocaching, etc., I can use the TomTom to get me to the closest road or parking lot, and then I switch to (of all things) the iPhone 3gs for everything else, because of the compass and some excellent tracking software that's come out for it.

Don't Garmin and TomTom also provide the in-dash GPS for cars? I would think that would be a pretty good amount of $$$ too.

Re:Geocaching? Hiking?

[natehoy]

Right, now imagine having both on one device.

Google's Satnav app for getting you to the nearest parking lot, then switching over to a Geocaching app like BlackStar for the Blackberry or Geocaching's iPhone app for the "final sprint" to the cache.

Personally, I have a Blackberry and since I started using BlackStar I pretty much abandoned my dedicated GPS. The ability to just say "show me the 20 caches nearest to me right now" and go find one on the spur of the moment, then log it immediately - that's too compelling to ignore, and is FAR better than a dedicated unit.

I rarely need turn-by-turn directions and can't justify the cost of having a dedicated GPS unit in my car. When I need turn-by-turn, I use Google Maps for Blackberry (which is clumsy) or something like Nav4All. Both require signal to get maps, but both cache the route and basic roads upon calculation of the route. So even if I lose signal enroute I can get where I need to go. And for the very casual use I employ, that works.

If I did a lot of car navigation, I'd probably buy a dedicated navigation unit that doesn't require a continuous connection. But a lot of people like me only need it occasionally, and we always have our Crackberries with us.

I suspect companies like TeleNav probably see a lot more threat to this than companies like Garmin. There will always be a decent market for devices that need to be rugged, have long battery life, and keep the maps onboard. There will NOT always be a decent market for navigation software that runs on existing smartphones, if Google decides to expand this to other platforms.

Not a chance

[schnikies79]

I go hiking/camping nearly every-other weekend during the summer and even some in winter. Cell signals are poor to non-existent (when they do exist, it's never 3g) and I might have not have access to a power source for a couple days up to a week.

Good luck with finding a cell-phone that can fit that bill.

Re:Not a chance

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't think that's really the intention here. This is an urban device (which consists of 99% of their potential user base).

Re:Not a chance

[nine-times]

Those problems aren't unsolvable. You've just laid out part of a design spec for a device which isn't impossible with today's technology. First, cell signals might not be good, so you need the option to download maps ahead of time and save them to the phone. Second, battery life is limited, and when you're far away from any power source, the cell phone eats too much power. Well you just solved part of the problem with your definition of the problem. Locations where you're far from power sources tends to overlap with the locations where there isn't good cell reception. Make a device so you can turn off all wireless/cell capabilities and conserve power for the GPS.

Ok, so that still might not be good enough for a few specialized purposes. Maybe if you're a police officer or a hard-core outdoorsman you'll still want a separate device, in the same way that some people still want a PDA separate from their phone. But for mainstream users? The GPS on the phone will probably be plenty good enough.

Re:Not a chance

[Lifyre]

Or make it run on double-A batteries like a large number of GPS's do...

Re:Not a chance

[sponga]

I keep seeing all these posts playing the 'minority' crowd who do rare odd little things, all of a sudden everyone at Slashdot seems to be a hiker or in some rare spot where there is no coverage. I mean I feel for the people who live in the middle of nowhere Nebraska, but for 99% of the time I have to get through Los Angeles traffic like millions of others and not every American is traveling every other month to a foreign country.
Businesses are not out to appeal to a small crowd or else they would be bankrupt.

I see this more as leading the way for other cell phones to provide built in GPS, I mean you cannot even get a cell phone that doesn't have a camera built into it and even the Ipod Nano's come with cameras. Phones in the future should come with everything built into it, including GPS.

As for taking it mobile, I bought a nice $9 solar charger that can charge my cellphone/ipod/garmin and supposedly it can run a laptop but I am skeptical of hooking it up. Not Googles problem that you don't have access to power for a couple days, call in the National Guard.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320434382609&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT

I did something real corny by attaching the solar unit to the top of my hat and the usb cord down into my backpack to run my bulky Garmin C550. I can listen to music from it and it announces directions when I am mountain biking or hiking in Yosemite.
I recently took it with me on my Yosemite trip and it followed me on all the trails, even up to half dome and all the way around to Glacier Point.

Re:Not a chance

[farble1670]

GPS companies can't survive serving a the niche market that is people that go camping every other weekend. well, they can survive in a much downgraded state from where they are now ... which will in time cause them to get so far behind technologically that phones will actually be better GPS than their stand alone units. and you don't need 3g to use google maps.

Re:Not a chance

[sootman]

Agreed. Better question: will Google and Android (and BlackBerry and Pre and, oh yeah, iPhone) kill 95% of the current demand for standalone GPSs, reducing it to a niche market (with possibly just one supplier) for hikers, bikers, boaters, pilots, and people who drive for a living? Yes.

Re:Needs internet connection-troll?!

[Anonymous Coward]

Which idiot modded the above troll?

Not necessarily

[f1vlad]

They can always move on to Android OS like MIO is doing: http://www.pcworld.com/article/174434/android_moving_into_mio_mibuddy_navigation_device.html

Not anytime soon.

[macwhizkid]

As someone who travels by car to go backpacking/skiing/kayaking on the weekends, my trusty Garmin Streetpilot 2610 will not be replaced by any kind of device requiring a data link for a long time to come. Why? Because when you're driving to a remote location that you've never been to before, your iPhone/Android device's signal is likely to crap out just when you need it most -- which is, the last couple of miles to your destination after getting off the interstate. Google Maps can't help you when you're 20 miles from the nearest cell tower. Maybe this would be feasible in European countries where cell coverage is approaching 100%, but here in the US I often can't get decent cell coverage in my office, let alone the Adirondacks.

Re:Inevitable

[gfreeman]

A GPS device is in every cell phone in accordance with US law.

Not technically true.

Why do they keep doing this?

[areusche]

I love how ignorant tech writers love calling something the "killer". Kind of like how PDAs are dead and Palm back in its day started coming up with new acronyms to compensate for this death. PDAs never died, they changed into smartphones. Kind of like how GPS units won't die, they'll roll into converged units. Smartphones with standalone GPS units that use AGPS as an assist will start popping up more and more. Hopefully the obnoxious paid services like VZnav will disappear with time.

Seriously, WTF?

[sean.peters]

The only solution I see to this is to ban access to the built in device to all but emergency responders... If we don't write some protection laws quickly we'll surely see the end of companies like Garmin.

You. Have. Got. To. Be. Fucking. Kidding. I'm being forced to pay for a GPS device built into my phone, but now you want to deny me the use of it... because it would interfere with Garmin's profit margin? Here's a news flash, partner - Garmin is not entitled to legal protection of their profits. If I bought the damn GPS, I should get to use it.

Re:Seriously, WTF?

[mikechant]

Errr... Whoosh?

To explain in tedious detail, surely the gp post is a reference to past attempts by various industries to preserve their business model by dubious legal means when it became technically obsolete, not a serious suggestion that such tactics are likely or legally feasible in this particular case.

Walmart, I mean Google Strikes Again!

[sumbry]

In the same way that Walmart comes into a town and destroys local businesses, Google can enter into an industry/sector and destroy most of the competition overnight by giving an application away for free. Who is going to pay $100 for a Maps Application now (or more for a hardware device) when they can just download one for free.

Isn't this the same type of stuff we accused Microsoft of doing years ago? Yup, Walmart, I mean Google strikes again. Pray whatever industry you're in Google doesn't decide to suddenly release a free product.

Re:Walmart, I mean Google Strikes Again!

[Buelldozer]

There is more to GPS than how to drive from here to there. 98% of my usage of a GPS is in places where there ARE no roads. Anyone who backpacks, hikes, uses ORVs, hunts, fishes, camps, etc, needs a rugged outdoor/backcountry GPS. A cell phone, no matter how cool, does not do the trick.

Ergo Google will not be "taking over" the GPS space. They MAY take over the GPS enabled NAVIGATION space, but not the GPS space as a whole.

Re:Walmart, I mean Google Strikes Again!

[R2.0]

"In the same way that Walmart comes into a town and destroys local businesses, Google can enter into an industry/sector and destroy most of the competition overnight by giving an application away for free. Who is going to pay $100 for a Maps Application now (or more for a hardware device) when they can just download one for free.

Isn't this the same type of stuff we accused Microsoft of doing years ago? Yup, Walmart, I mean Google strikes again. Pray whatever industry you're in Google doesn't decide to suddenly release a free product."

Yeah, and then they jack up prices once the competition is gone!

Wait - they don't do that? They keep their prices low? Well, wtf?

There are plenty of reasons to dislike Walmart, but the "destroy competition" is the weakest one. The reason that is generally viewed as bad is that it has historically led to price increases, but that hasn't yet happened with Walmart. Same as Google.

The difference between them and MS is that, once MS had wiped out Netscape, it could divert resources away from browser development, and left us with IE6 for years. The consumer did not benefit. One might argue that the Wal-Mart/Google model is bad on a macroeconomic scale, but certainly not at the consumer level.

Re:Walmart, I mean Google Strikes Again!

[slim]

Anyone who backpacks, hikes, uses ORVs, hunts, fishes, camps, etc, needs a rugged outdoor/backcountry GPS. A cell phone, no matter how cool, does not do the trick.

What's needed is a rugged outdoor/backcountry cellphone. Of course it would lose some functionality when it was off the network, but it would still do enough offline to be useful. Including GPS duties.

Re:Walmart, I mean Google Strikes Again!

[gr8_phk]

Who is going to pay $100 for a Maps Application now (or more for a hardware device) when they can just download one for free.

You've been able to do that for years now.

Re:Walmart, I mean Google Strikes Again!

[Espectr0]

Not if actually Google's service is better or cheaper than the competition provides. But don't worry, Garmin and TomTom have offline access, works outside the US, and standalone devices can connect almost instantly while a cellphone takes sometimes up to 10 minutes to connect (especially if you don't have assisted gps with your cellphone provider)

They are not going anywhere anytime soon.

Re:Walmart, I mean Google Strikes Again!

[Anonymous Coward]

go make buggy whips somewhere else. i want it free now. rent-seeking is not behavior i care about.

Re:Walmart, I mean Google Strikes Again!

[Anonymous Coward]

Google isn't abusing a monopoly to enter other markets. Maybe Google is using it's reputation - but that's perfectly fine. It's not as though if you search (or advertise) on Yahoo! you can't use Android's turn-by-turn. I agree it's scary to complete with Google, but comparing it to what MS has done is misguided.

Re:Walmart, I mean Google Strikes Again!

[DerekLyons]

In the same way that Walmart comes into a town and destroys local businesses, Google can enter into an industry/sector and destroy most of the competition overnight by giving an application away for free. Who is going to pay $100 for a Maps Application now (or more for a hardware device) when they can just download one for free.

Yep, and just like Wal Mart, the free/cheap stuff is shit compared to the McCoy. On the geocaching forums we're already seeing people having problems with dropping their phone in the mud (which a real GPS shrugs off), of inaccuracy traceable to having a non optimized antenna, with folks having their [cell phone] batteries run out in mid day in the middle of nowhere (most cachers carry at least one set of the bog standard AA batteries virtually all GPSs use)...

Re:Walmart, I mean Google Strikes Again!

[Buelldozer]

Why? I don't want to drag a cellphone of that nature around with me day to day. It would be too big and bulky. It's also not likely to run on standard and easily swappable alkaline cells which makes back country power outages a real concern.

It will also make the cell device more expensive.

I'm failing to see a real upside.

Re:Walmart, I mean Google Strikes Again!

[Anonymous Coward]

Perhaps instead of *praying* that you aren't in an industry that can have it's lunch eaten by a free alternative that has only survived so far due to a network of underhanded lock-ins (most of the cellphone industry and "busisness apps" included here), you should actively move toward an industry that actually provides value and isn't trivial to replace.

And no, I don't recall anyone ever accusing MS of flooding the market with GOOD, FREE apps that displaced entrenched lock-in abusing competition, my recollection is mostly of them overpromising and underdelivering software and using extensive lock-in and underhanded legal tactics to sabotage their competition.

Re:Walmart, I mean Google Strikes Again!

[brkello]

*rolls eyes* Let me explain the difference. Walmart rolls in to town. They shop the local mom and pop shops and reduce their prices as to drive those shops out of business. They can do this because they sell so many other things that they can make a profit on. Once the other shops shut down, they are free charge whatever they want. This has been their model.

When Google releases something for free, it stays free. They don't destroy a market and then start charging for it once they are the only ones left. And I don't even think they are actually destroying the competition.

So no, Google is not Walmart. Your comparison is stupid and incorrect.

Re:Walmart, I mean Google Strikes Again!

[the Atomic Rabbit]

> Isn't this the same type of stuff we accused Microsoft of doing years ago?

Until Google starts strong-arming OEMs into refusing to carry their competitors' products, the answer is no.

Re:Walmart, I mean Google Strikes Again!

[slapout]

It's not "free" if you have to pay for the phone and the monthly data plan.

Re:Walmart, I mean Google Strikes Again!

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not predatory if you can still make money, even giving it away for free.

Off-road usage

[puddles]

We tend to go to places where cellphone reception is next to impossible (Death Valley, Moab, out kayaking on on open waters, etc.) You really need standalone GPS with proper maps for this sort of activities.

Other applications

[MaerD]

People tend to forget that gps has other applications outside of a car. Dedicated uses, such as air navigation, ship navigation, etc are unlikely to be replaced soon. And in those applications, Garmin pretty much is the standard (not to say there aren't others, but honestly, Garmin doesn't have much to worry about at this point).

Not the end, but the writing is on the wall

[drumcat]

No one is saying GPS units are obsolete. What this does say is that there will be a lot less margin in devices that are now one-trick ponies.

Re:Not the end, but the writing is on the wall

[drumcat]

Not to mention... who will want to pay $120 for a map update now, huh Garmin?

Re:Not the end, but the writing is on the wall

[BoberFett]

People who don't want to pay an additional $360/yr for a data plan?

Another reason I doubt this will happen

[sean.peters]

Others have commented on issues like lack of ruggedization and local caching of maps (at least for some device/software combinations), and display size and mountability to stuff like mountain bikes. Another reason why dedicated GPS devices probably aren't going away any time soon: quality of the GPS receiver itself. The GPS receiver built into the iPhone, at least, is sort of weak sauce. While it works well enough in a car, if you get any kind of overhead obstruction at all (even a few tree branches, for example), the signal quickly drops to essentially nothing. This is why TomTom felt the need to offer an external GPS receiver as part of their iPhone car kit.

Don't get me wrong, I really like the GPS built into my iPhone, and frequently find it useful... but it's far from a complete replacement for a standalone device.

Re:Another reason I doubt this will happen

[ameoba]

If you think the iPhone is bad, my G1, an actual Android device, is nearly worthless. My friends' iPhones can usually pin you down to within a block or so when outside. My G1 might get you within a quarter mile - It's only slightly more accurate than searching on my current zip-code.

Re:Another reason I doubt this will happen

[Dun Malg]

If you think the iPhone is bad, my G1, an actual Android device, is nearly worthless

Really? I got sub 10 meter accuracy from my G1 sitting in my living room. Same with my G2. What are you using to measure the accuracy?

Re:Another reason I doubt this will happen

[BitZtream]

TomTom doesn't use an external GPS, it uses an external antenna on the iPhone, which was trivial to build into the mounting bracket, which is what you are actually buying.

Re:Another reason I doubt this will happen

[ameoba]

Standing on a street corner, going to the maps and asking for my current location results in locations quite a ways away from my location. Maybe I have a defective GPS reciever. All I know is that I would never even try to rely on this GPS to give me directions.

Other GPS apps

[alexo]

Continuing on that tangent, what navigation apps for smartphones are considered "the best" regardless of the platform (Android, Symbian, Win-Mobile, etc.)?

Re:Other GPS apps

[GravityStar]

I am a sample of one, but I like my TomTom, both on my deceased PDA and my stand-alone unit. YMMV

Wrong question

[gmuslera]

Will smartphones kill all the devices that are converging to them? Why stop at GPS when from clocks and calculators to netbooks (including cameras, ebook readers and music players, of course) all are possibly being replaced by smartphones?

Re:Wrong question

[jomcty]

My BlackBerry 8900 made my bedside clock obsolete with the addition of the charging pod and my Canon Powershot and Sony camcorder with the 8900's built-in camera.

The 8900's built-in maps app is decent but I still prefer my Magellan GPS, for the moment.

No. You're stupid for thinking this.

[Anonymous Coward]

No. You're stupid for thinking this. Here, check this out.

Will portable gaming systems kill home gaming systems?
Will cell phones kill landline phones?
Will firefox kill internet explorer?

No.

The 2nd will always have a market, if not smaller, because some people just don't have a need for the first one or like the second one enough to keep it around.

Re:No. You're stupid for thinking this.

[killmenow]

Continuing...

Will standalone GPS units kill the map/atlas printing business?
Will computers kill the pencil+paper industry?
Will cars kill the bicycle industry?
Will the internet kill the shopping mall industry?

etc.

Re:Not until it stores the maps local on the devic

[Anonymous Coward]

Watch the video! It does traffic!

Garmin not just for those eTrex units

[russotto]

Garmin makes all sorts of products besides standalone GPS. They make specialized GPS units for use in various sports. They make aviation GPS and marine GPS. And they make modules to be incorporated into other products. Most of those they've been making longer than they've been in the handheld business. They're not going to die if the handheld and auto GPS markets are severely cut into by cellphones.

Re:Garmin not just for those eTrex units

[farble1670]

it's pretty much doomsday to a company when you tell them they are going to be pushed out the general consumer market and have to base profits on niche markets. i wish i knew what % of say garmin's business is based of consumer auto GPS. i suspect it's quite high.

Probably

[MDMurphy]

One issue with phone based GPS units is that they go stupid when there's no cell coverage. Thats easily fixed: Just load the map database onto the unit ahead of time. My standalone Garmin has a map update that comes on DVD that fits on a 2GB memory card with space to spare. With a smartphone with 8GB+ you could easily put the whole US/Canada database on it, or just the part of the country you need.

Garmin had this available for PDAs a while back, before flash memory was cheap. They could release a loadable database you put on the SD card in your Android phone and an app to use it loaded in the phone. They'd probably have better margins on that product than the standalone one.

Another issue with handhelds as car units is satellite visibility. That's where a well done car cradle can help. Charging is done as you go, or you can go wild and have a setup that integrates an external antenna.

Pure online map solutions aren't a good replacement for a standalone, but with cheap memory these days there's no reason a phone can't contain a map database, suplemented by additional information ( like StreetView or aerial photos ) when wireless coverage is available. Loading the entire map database into the unit would not likely be free though.

DVDs

[wren337]

Remember when they added DVD drives to computers, and everyone stopped buying DVD players? Good times.
I mean, why would anyone need both?

Re:DVDs

[wolrahnaes]

Yes, because everyone had their computer near their TV and had video-out capable video cards back when DVD drives were new in computers......oh wait...no...

On the other hand, almost every time I'm in my car, I have my phone with me. Right now I have my TomTom set to use my phone's Bluetooth connection to get online and download traffic/weather info. The idea of a phone that has this built in so I can get rid of one device and remove tethering from my phone plan seems rather appealing, and at this point if Verizon has actually managed to resist their compulsions to fuck up phones I'll be a Droid owner by the end of next month.

Re:DVDs

[wren337]

My garmin has traffic and weather built in. The number of people interested in paying a monthly fee for a dataplan is very, very small even if it doesnt seem that way on slashdot.

Re:DVDs

[BitZtream]

Whoosh ...

No

[Locke2005]

Rephrase the question: Will a GPS solution that requires a 3G connection to work replace a stand-alone solution? No, at least in those areas which don't have good 3G connectivity -- like almost anywhere I'd want to go hiking, for instance. Hell, I've driven in suburbs where Google Maps on the Android didn't work, and I was forced to navigate the old fashioned way. Yeah, the article says the same thing.

As a side note, the Google Maps data is not always correct. What Google Maps shows as the street my house is on is not a street at all, but rather the driveway of one of my neighbors. Vendors keep telling me "Oh no, I don't need directions, I've got GPS!" then wind up at my neighbor's house, and THEN they call for directions.

On-Board GPS

[Pikkebaas]

On-board devices will snuff out standalone GPS far quicker than Android with google maps ever will.

Re:On-Board GPS

[Guy Harris]

On-board devices that let the passenger use them even when the car's moving will snuff out standalone GPS far quicker than Android with google maps ever will.

There, fixed that for you. (I can't remember the time we last used the nav system in my car. We frequently use Google Maps on our iPhones, however - the fact that we don't have nav systems in both our cars helps, and the fact that the UI of the nav system in my car sucks donkey dicks helps, but the fact that if I'm driving the nav system won't let the passenger use it even though they're not behind the wheel also helps encourage use of the iPhone as a nav system.)

Boats, anyone?

[jackjumper]

I doubt it will do any good while I'm out on my boat. I have a Garmin chartplotter GPS that shows marine chart information. Of course I guess there's no reason they couldn't add it, for coastal and inland waters anyways.

At least you don't get reamed for updated maps

[Mike Van Pelt]

Maybe this will apply some pressure on Garmin and/or TomTom to not gouge quite so heavily for updated maps. (It's in the neighborhood of $70 to upgrade your maps the last time I looked, which makes one question whether to update the maps or just buy a newer, perhaps more feature-laden, device. Which is likely the reason for the gouge.)

I've heard various descriptions of what the location technology in these phones is -- Recently, a fairly knowledgeable person said that "assisted GPS" meant it used cell phones to get the ephemeris data to greatly speed up GPS start-up time, and was real GPS from there. If it's receiving the GPS signals, though, there's no reason in principle why it couldn't get the ephemeris data the old-fashioned way, from the satellites, if you were out of cell phone range.

That wouldn't help with the maps when you're out of cell phone range, though, unless they provide some way to pre-download them, at least for an area you're intending to visit.

Re:At least you don't get reamed for updated maps

[Guy Harris]

Maybe this will apply some pressure on Garmin and/or TomTom to not gouge quite so heavily for updated maps.

Mr. ZFS agrees with you on that.

The Route is cached

[acomj]

Accoding to engadget the route is cached when calculated, so as long as you don't go too far of course....

http://www.engadget.com/2009/10/28/google-navigation-video-hands-on-you-want-this/

Re:Not until it stores the maps local on the devic

[Dudibob]

Did you RTFA from Google? http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2009/10/announcing-google-maps-navigation-for.html I'm sure there will be some bugs but it looks like it ticks most of your boxes. Also better pricing? the software itself is FREE, the only down side is carrier charges to access it.

No thanks

[Anonymous Coward]

No thanks, I prefer my TomTom ONE 3rd edition, complete with

- Decently sized screen.
- No expensive cell phone data plan required.
- No recurring service charges unless I want a map update.

Some day

[Etherized]

There's really no reason to have all of these different devices, when the functionality can be properly collapsed into one.

We're not there yet, and there will always be some standalone GPS devices for very specific purposes. But as the general purpose devices get smaller and better, the single-function units will gradually be relegated to the margins.

Another reason

[Yurka]

Google street maps are not by Google (so far; this may change, of course). TomTom owns Tele Atlas (which owns GDT), and is therefore one of only 2 companies with established road network data business (the other one being Nokia, nee NAVTEQ - and Tele Atlas has always had a better coverage outside North America). The exponential explosion in geocoding devices cannot be anything but good for the licensing revenue of these 2 companies. Garmin, though, has no prayer in this segment and would do good to concentrate on hiking market.

Re:Another reason

[blamanj]

This has already changed (in the US). If you look at the copyright in Google Maps, it now showing data copyright Google, as opposed to the providers they previously licensed their data from.

Standalone not going away but will shrink

[sjbe]

I don't think standalone GPS is going to go away but it is probably going to drop significantly in marketshare. Between cars with built in GPS and phones with GPS options, the handheld units are going to go the way of the standalone PDA to some degree. They're useful and right now because they outperform the phone based GPS systems but much like MP3 players they are going to get increasingly integrated. There might me a small remaining market for standalone units but only so long as they can offer features not available on phones AND not in the car. I have a Garmin Nuvi but I only use it now when I'm traveling because my primary car has a built in GPS and my phone can't do the job adequately. If my phone could do the job I'd have little use for the Garmin and I've seen GPS systems for the iPhone that are approaching that level of performance. I think it might take another 5-10 years for the standalone units to lose most of their marketshare but I don't see them offering anything that would justify a separate device in the long term. Certainly not anywhere near the number of devices around right now anyway. I can see a few inexpensive low end standalone units but nothing more without some significant technological innovations.

Sharing?

[edmicman]

My wife can take our Garmin in her car if she needs it or I could let a friend borrow it; I'm not going to lend my phone to someone to use as a GPS. Sure, I'll find it useful to have a working GPS on my phone, for like most things (camera, gps) I'm gonna go with the dedicated device for when I really need quality.

Re:Sharing?

[farble1670]

your wife probably has, or will have in the near future, her own smart phone.

the future

[fulldecent]

Imagine what will happen when the iphone will actually support bluetooth internet. garmins and other not-monthly-subscription devices can be left in the car an still have access to updates when you walk in the car.

Garmin for BlackBerry, Windows Mobile, Etc

[Anonymous Coward]

It's like this is the first and only GPS app for a phone that gives you turn by turn spoken directions. Sorry, the garmin app that's been available for both Blackberry, Windows Mobile, as well as others also supports this feature, has the very familiar and easy to use Garmin Interface, and also integrates with Panoramio to show places near you where people have taken pictures and direct you right to them. I've used it on the Storm, it's really nice. I'd personally say it's a lot better than the current version of Google Maps for Blackberry. Downside: It's $100 for the application, but if you're looking for a good GPS app, the Garmin is surely near the top.

Debunking

[Gudeldar]

Why does this even need to be debunked? The only threat poses is to smartphone navigation apps, not standalone GPS units.

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[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Good Riddance, Garmin

[Anonymous Coward]

They want $150 (?) to fix the flimsy antenna on my Quest II so I bought a whole unit off craigslist for $100.

BUT, my map "license" is keyed to the serial number on the broken unit. They refuse to transfer it. So now I own TWO non-functional Quest II's.

Verizon

[PvtVoid]

...already does this, although, as usual for Verizon, it's completely proprietary and locked down. It works pretty well, though.

Will Google and Android Kill Standalone GPS?

[itsdapead]

Probably not.

However, Google might concievably kill the market for GPS software for smartphones - which is something TomTom and others have invested in recently.

I'm not a heavy GPS user - if I was (and/or if I planned to use GPS overseas), I'd go for a standalone unit, for all the reasons discussed here by other posters. However, I got a HTC Hero phone, and it seemed a bit of a waste to have a GPS-capable phone with no turn-by-turn software so I bought Copilot - not perfect, but (IMHO) great value for money (probably better value than TomTom for Android/iPhone, but that's another issue).

I can see that Google's move could make a huge hole in such sales - but only if they add a cache facility to pre-load the maps for your journey while you have a good internet connection.

Garmin Routing is Crap, Googles is Great

[rolfwind]

I utterly and completely agree with you - particularly in rural areas, GPS needing 3G or Edge connection isn't going to cut it.

But, this will impact sales. I don't know about TomTom, but my experience with Garmin is that it's routing is shit. I have several units and there are a ton of spots where it will consistently take you via a route that takes much longer, it wants to exit from the fast highway usually one exit too early in order to go the roads beridden with stop signs and lights, and in some cases, it would take nonsensical detours from an otherwise straight road as if Garmin wanted you in a sight-seeing tour of the countryside, doubling not only time of a short trip, but the distance. Garmin has some seriously fucked up routing that even a non-native with just a map would ever pick, and I ran into this in Pennsylvania, Kentucky, Washington State, and even in Europe. It's not a localized issue. I love my Garmins in areas I don't know, but that is about it.

OTOH, Google Maps has some of the best routing I have seen, consistently, and in my native areas which I know well, it takes the routes I usually would as well. So, with the limitations in mind, it's perfect for urban/suburban dwellers. I only wish Google would make a standale GPS unit with no internet connection required and cheap updates - I would snap it up in a heartbeat.

Re:Garmin Routing is Crap, Googles is Great

[ezelkow1]

I have seen this on alot of gps, including my tomtom. The main issue I see is that usually GPS's dont understand that sometimes its quicker to go further and then turn around. An example of this is my exit home from the interstate. All GPS's tell me to get off an exit early and go through some local roads. The actual fast way is to go down one more exit, turn around and go backwards parallel to the interstate that I was just on and drive on a road for .5mi. I have seen this happen multiple times where gps's just refuse to understand that sometimes its faster to go down one more exit and turn around.

Re:Garmin Routing is Crap, Googles is Great

[slim]

I have seen this on alot of gps, including my tomtom.

How old is your TomTom?

Mine is uncannily good at routing, and more often than not, estimates the arrival time for a 3 hour journey, down to the nearest 5 minutes.

It might be that the UK maps are better than the US ones. I absolutely can't fault its algorithms.

Admittedly, I sometimes overrule it based on preferred driving conditions (e.g. I want to go on this pretty road instead of the motorway). It tells me to turn around a few times, then gives up and recalculates, giving me its new, later, estimated arrival time.

Re:Garmin Routing is Crap, Googles is Great

[NekSnappa]

My friends TomTom tells him that he's off the road when driving on a bypass around a small town.
A bypass that has been there for at least 3 years. And yes he has downloaded the most recent maps.

Re:Garmin Routing is Crap, Googles is Great

[Belial6]

I've been noticing the same problem. I don't know what they did in their updates, but my TomTom used to find everything just fine. Now, it consistantly says places that have been in the same location for literally decades, are in other places a mile or two away. It knows where I am, it just doesn't know where anything else is anymore.

Re:Garmin Routing is Crap, Googles is Great

[Anonymous Coward]

Google is perversely insistent on routing you through Manhattan when driving in the vicinity of NYC, despite the idiotic nature of that routing. It also makes a lot of dodgy decisions in Philadelphia and Chicago. The mistakes are different than Garmin's, but equivalent.

Re:Garmin Routing is Crap, Googles is Great

[Anonymous Coward]

You know, Tom-Tom's have the ability to send updated info back to the mothership, so your friend could drive around, connect the Tom-Tom and upload the new map data back to them, and within a few days this would be available for everyone who syncs up their Tom-Tom.

Re:Garmin Routing is Crap, Googles is Great

[jfengel]

I've observed the same thing.

Google has access to much better data, continually updated and not limited to the the memory you can cram into the device. It can also throw a lot more compute power at each routing problem (and share results between users, reducing the cost).

But for that reason it has to remain on the server, and isn't nearly as convenient as having the out-of-date, less complete data right there on the device.

Re:Garmin Routing is Crap, Googles is Great

[DerekLyons]

My experience is quite the opposite... My Garmin Nuvi takes me on very direct routes, and in my native area sometimes on faster and more direct routes than I would pick myself. Google Maps is the opposite, the routes it frequently choose in my native area are counter intuitive and often outright wrong.
 
One thing you might do, if you haven't, is check your preferences and avoidances in your Garmin. Mine didn't perform well until I tuned those.

Re:Garmin Routing is Crap, Googles is Great

[Anonymous Coward]

Google in fact doesn't have better data than Garmin. Garmin uses NAVTEQ which are still state of art, Google recently switched from TeleAtlas to their own data. The power of Google lies in their online routing algorithm. Small device like Garmin's that has to calculate route amongst billion of links must do it heuristically, therefore missing some obviously better routes. Google on the other hand utilizes recent advancements in route calculation (University of Karlsruhe) allowing 20ns time for retrieving backbone routes and 5ms to get the full route as they have pre-calculated backbone routes on the server (performing essentially a look-up operation). No small device would be ever capable of achieving that (well, even 100 servers would have problems). This is a benefit of having online services. Compare similar case with Nokia's Maps on their Ovi platform.

I am working for a competitor of Google in this area and we are looking forward to compete with them. We have anticipated this development for a long time and cannot wait to unleash what we have in our labs :)

The great war of Apple-Google-Nokia-Microsoft has begun. Stay tuned!

Re:Garmin Routing is Crap, Googles is Great

[ckaminski]

HAAA!!! I knew it! My GPS has some sort of scenic-route feature built in. I was trying to get to Big-Trees State Park in California a couple weeks ago, and when I missed a turn, my Nuvi tried to take me down a 3 mile dirt track through some ranchers spread. WTF?

Re:Garmin Routing is Crap, Googles is Great

[Rolgar]

In eastern Kansas (and I assume other rural areas), Google is terrible about estimating the best route because if you are on a good non-interstate road, it seems to significantly underestimate the road speed. For instance, on this route, the speed is 60 miles per hour, but Google estimates that the 45 mile (50 minute) drive takes 75 minutes. I've seen this on almost every rural road with a speed of 50-60 miles per hour where the road is not an interstate. Maybe I need to report the correct speeds to Google to get them to update my local roads, but I haven't taken the time to record and report them to see if it will make a difference.

Re:Garmin Routing is Crap, Googles is Great

[Anonymous Coward]

Ironically, on a recent trip Google maps wanted me to take a mule trail up a mountain while Garmin correctly made a route using the highway.

That is the only instance where I've seen Google mess up though.
As for the Garmin, you can specify the vehicle and road types that are preferred.
I've only had difficulty with the garmin in trying to route a detour around a closed road while unfamiliar with the area.

Re:Garmin Routing is Crap, Googles is Great

[riverat1]

Are you selection "Shortest" or "Quickest" routing? It makes a difference. Also, you can sometimes set priorities for road types, setting a preference for major roads.

Vectors v. Pixels

[theManInTheYellowHat]

Stand alone GPS has every road in the palm of your hand w/o any connection where Google's maps need gigabytes of pixel based maps at each resolution you want to view.

I have (and really like) a Nokia Internet tablet with Maemo Mapper and it is great but I am constantly managing the maps prior and during a trip. The golld old Garmin V had the whole US inside it just worked.

Another plus for stand alone is water navigation. Although a much smaller segment, I would think that small craft GPS would never switch to Google.

GPSes are dirt cheap, you make money w/ maps

[wsanders]

Yeah but GPSes are dirt cheap, you make money with the map subscriptions. Nearly everyone who needs real-time navigation also has a data phone. It's not just Android, there will be version for all cell phone OSes in a few months. They are doomed, the GPS receivers themselves will cost $10 in a few years.

Maybe Garmin and TomTom chould make cell phones, or cheap sat phone devices like the Spot tracker (http://www.findmespot.com/en/)?

Re:GPSes are dirt cheap, you make money w/ maps

[slim]

Garmin at Navman at least, and probably TomTom, sell their software for use on Blackberries and iPhones. So they don't seem to mind too much whether you get the hardware from them or from someone else.

What they'll need to do is convince potential buyers that it's worth paying money for their software, instead of sticking with Google's free version.

People still buy MS Office...

Re:GPSes are dirt cheap, you make money w/ maps

[jonbryce]

They have had a Windows Mobile version for at least two years now. Maybe this new version is better in some way?

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[account_deleted]

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Not a chance

[bkr1_2k]

There are plenty of applications where standalone GPS is still necessary. Tracking of a mobile fleet of trucks, for example. Or planes using it for position information in conjunction with INS systems. Hikers/campers/outdoorspeople who don't have cell coverage. International travel where people don't have cell coverage. Lots and lots of reasons standalone GPS isn't going anywhere in the near future.

The standard line...

[sean.peters]

... about how "if you have to explain the joke" probably applies here.

In Olympic National Park?

[MarkvW]

Yes, I'm going to be fully web-interconnected in a steep, densely canopied draw in Olympic National Park. And the Google and Tom Tom services are going to serve me there. Oh yeah . . .. And when I'm riding my bike in the middle of nowhere--the web will serve me there too . . .

I don't think so. Some people would rather not put their credit card on an IV hookup to a service provider if they don't need to.

On the other hand, if the maps are free, reliable, and downloadable . . .. Then I'm listening!

Shipping

[mistralol]

No Likly As an iphone normally isnt suitable for some of the following sports they simply break to easy or you dont get any signal so its usless anyway. Sailing / Hiking / Sea Canoe / Gliding / Many others ? Another fact is that my gliding instructor was told to stop flying with his phone on as he was causing havoc on the network he was jumping between multiple cell towers to fast

I have 7 stand-alone GPS devices....

[SwedishChef]

I have, if I can remember correctly, seven separate GPS units including two in each car (Magellan), two handheld units that are waterproof for sea kayaking (both Garmin but one has all the US marine charts and both do tracking), one stand-alone Garmin for our 1974 Carver 25-foot cabin cruiser that can take inputs from depth sounder and radar plus contains maps and charts for the entire west coast of North America (Garmin), one aviation-oriented Garmin that contains aviation charts and interfaces with my glider's computer, and one Magellan hand-held that my business used when we did a wireless ISP.

Even though my iPhone has a very inexpensive GPS application for marine charts (with downloadable maps), and even though I often take it (in a water-tight enclosure) with me sea kayaking, it's not likely to replace the hand held waterproof Garmins because they have specialized features (trip counters, currents, etc) that are easier to access and screens made for use in bright sunlight.

Similarly, the GPS units made specifically for aviation and marine use are not likely to be replaced by a combination cell phone/GPS. You need more than turn-by-turn instructions when flying from thermal to thermal in a glider, for instance.

And although many late model cars come with built-in GPS systems these are expensive to upgrade and do not allow any changes while the car is moving (even by the passenger). Their screens can be fabulous but the annoyance of having to pull over and stop if something changes has made several of my friends go buy a Nuvi just so they can get the functionality they want. So all their built-in units do is track and display speed, direction, etc. The turn-by-turn is left up to the stand-alone unit mounted on the windshield.

The biggest hurdle to mass use of cell phone GPS devices is likely to be the simple fact that 3G coverage is going to be spotty for a long time to come. Rural Oregon, Idaho, Nevada or Montana is not likely to have either wifi or 3G except along the main Interstate highways or in larger cities. And the same will hold true for many other states. Combine this with the handicap of the cell phone screen which is often too small to be seen when mounted 2 or 3 feet away on the dashboard or windshield and you will have people buying stand-alone GPS systems for a long time to come.

But the market for the stand-alone units is likely to shrink. Pedestrians or byclists who stay in town would take their cell phone anyway and having it track their rides or walks would make them unlikely to buy one of the Garmin wrist-mounted units. And if I traveled to a large city on business I'd take my iPhone but probably not a GPS unit; the iPhone could do whatever I needed it to do with the likelihood of 3G coverage.

Re:I have 7 stand-alone GPS devices....

[_avs_007]

And although many late model cars come with built-in GPS systems these are expensive to upgrade and do not allow any changes while the car is moving (even by the passenger). Their screens can be fabulous but the annoyance of having to pull over and stop if something changes has made several of my friends go buy a Nuvi just so they can get the functionality they want. So all their built-in units do is track and display speed, direction, etc. The turn-by-turn is left up to the stand-alone unit mounted on the windshield.

Actually, only SOME cars don't let you make changes when in motion. Acura, for example, does not care if you are moving, and you can happily use the thing while in motion... I have both built in navigation in almost all my cars, and a couple different hand-held units as well... The built in ones are superior, for one major reason. It does NOT need to have constant GPS signal. If you drive through a downtown area with tall buildings, in a tunnel, etc, the built in navigation will rely on its compass and your car's speed sensors to extrapolate your heading, and continue to function....

My handheld units? They'll stop working until it gets signal again. When I was in SF, I had to drive aimlessly for 20 blocks before my handheld could figure out where I was again, but it would keep cutting out, causing me to miss MANY turns. I tried with 3 different brands of hand-held navigations, and had the same problem with all three. The one built into my cars tho? I never experienced such a problem.... You know how much it sucks to pull out of a parking garage, and your handheld unit doesn't know where you are, and can't find a signal because of the tall buildings, so you drive 20 blocks to get a signal, and then find out you drove 20 blocks in the wrong direction? Soooo much nicer to punch in the same info on my built in navigation, and when I exit the parking structure, the thing already knows which street I'm on, and correctly routes me to my destination, even tho the display shows I have no GPS satellites in view. Then I continue down the street, and it correctly routes me, and correctly tells me when to turn, despite still not having any signal yet....

Fine when you're near civilisation I suppose

[FridgeFreezer]

But we go to places where there is no signal. Not just no cell signal, but no TV or FM radio, nothing. In the woods, in RF-unfriendly geographies, even SiRF-III GPS can struggle to get a lock. Also - what about planes & boats? No GSM base stations at sea, well, not without a dedicated satellite uplink. What about military apps where a mobile phone could easily be detected & targetted by the enemy?

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[account_deleted]

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wel

[chord.wav]

Cellphones screens just aren't designed for in-car/while-driving use. I like my Garmin touch interface. You have to push harder than on an iPhone, where the slightest touch is counted as a click.

So, GPS-enabled phones will surely eat the casual-user market, but on the long run, it may even draw more attention to the GPS units giving Garmin and such a niche.... On a second thought, that is until Apple launches its tablet, designed for in-car use (and kindle use also).

Define "kill"

[MobyDisk]

Everyone has posted reasons that standalone GPS units will still be necessary. However, these examples are edge cases. The real question is "How much will Google and Android kill standalone GPS?" If every car and cell phone has Google Navigation, and every mountain biker + international traveler + shepherd + sailor has a standalone GPS -- then companies like Garmin and TomTom will shrink substantially. Those other uses are a very small part of the total market. Perhaps small enough that they might become expensive custom-made niche items.

Add in the fact that cell coverage and bandwidth are increasing. From an investors standpoint, these are not the companies you want to be investing in, even if their products do survive.

Take a break, go sailing

[watergeus]

to discover the real meaning of a GPS.

Having a night watch, stormy weather.
See the ETA going up from 40 hours to eternity,
Like in the old days with modems and file-transfer.

Take a sextant and paper-charts as back-up with you.

A good cloud GPS system....

[Anonymous Coward]

I think than any good cloud only turn by turn GPS system would cache all map data required to complete the trip when then destination is selected. Then the only limitation would be that you could not change your route until a data signal is re acquired. Or an even smarter solution is that the phone would know where a signal is not available and cache only those areas. The ultimate solution would be a mixuture of cloud and device stored maps, that way the maps and points of interests are always up to date.

Uh, I don't think so

[DigitalSorceress]

I seriously doubt that stand alone gps can truly ever be replaced... not for gps apps/solutions that rely on connectivity.

Perfect example: I recently finished a 6,000 mile road trip across Canada and back. Both my traveling companion and I had iPhones. We both turned off all data for the entire time we were in Canada... if we hadn't we'd have gotten multi-thousand dollar bills from Rogers Internet for data roaming. Think I'm kidding? last Canada road trip, my traveling companion didn't turn hers off. Got a call from AT&T halfway into the trip asking if she meant to be racking up $2000 in data roaming. Took us a couple days to get the pucker marks out of the passenger seat.

(okay, I kid about the pucker marks, but not about the bill or the call from AT&T).

Google Maps is great, but it relies on an active data connection... something you don't always have available whether due to low signal or STUPID high prices.

Stand-alone units don't have this problem.

Re:Uh, I don't think so

[Tacvek]

True. A truely basic GPS system provides time and location information, (and velocity information too generally), but that is all. Technically for some purposes that is all that is needed. Geocaching could in theroy be done with such a device, although a more feature complete one is better.

Supporting waypoints, and rlative positioning is the next step, and any small device with some form of serial port (be it a real one, serial over USB, Serial over bluetooth, etc) can provide this level of functionality, most would have absolutely no problems providing very coarse grain maps. (Edges of states/countires showing up, etc). But for many uses much higher resolution is desired. At the very least, high resolution mapping is desired. In some cases, like the Google Earth applications, even areal photos are useful. (I strongly suspect that a phone with with GPS and Google Earth are far more useful for some off-road activities than traditional GPS units are, at least if network connectivity is available. Data about roads and speed limits, etc are just no of that much use.)

But for vehicle navigation, full mapping data with roads and connection information, and many waypoints for things like gas stations, and resaurants are almost essential. And those are fairly large. Not many devices can natively fit a full data set, and manufactures long ago realized that requiring users to download up to 3 out of ten regions at a time, or similar is just crap. One option then is streaming data over the internet.

  Now Full mapping data for a country like the United States fits well on an SD card, and I suspect using an SDHC card, full mapping data for the EU+(Switzerland) could be put on a card. I know that Garmin devices in theory can support having full mapping data for the planet split between the build-in memory and the SD card, if the SD card was large enough, and the owner was willing to pay for all the maps. Garmin even sells maps on SD card (Writable SD cards, not the rarer SD-ROM cards that are possible but virtually never seen.)

So I'd say the real threat to standalone GPS's would come from Cell applications that use map data from an SD card. I'm not sure if any of the major GPS manufacture's applications for any phone model support using the same maps from the stand alone devices on SD cards, but that would be far more of a true threat to stand alone devices than Google's new android application.

Re:Uh, I don't think so

[farble1670]

imagine if you will a day far, far in the future when SD cards will be big enough to store your maps for offline use ... oh wait ...

Re:Uh, I don't think so

[BitZtream]

Tell your friend she was retarded for changing the default setting, which doesn't allow international data roaming.

Open Street Map

[gr8_phk]

Can we just fix the errors in the OSM so it's up to date? Then we can all just download that into whatever device we want. Netbooks have a bigger display than GPS devices and cellphones. I have a bluetooth GPS that cost $60 with no display - it's great.

Oh boy..

[cheros]

Are YOU going to be embarrassed when you get lost.. :-)

I've got a better argument for standalone: privacy. I prefer NOT to leave my life with a totally untrusted 3rd party - even 8 years of attempted "think of terrorists" indoctrination hasn't changed that.

Stupid day traders

[wiredlogic]

As many have pointed out there is no comparison between the flexibility offered by a hand held GPS and the limitations of using a GPS enabled cell phone. The significant threat for the big GPS players is the development of OEM in-car GPS by the auto industry. In 10-20 years this will be commonplace in all but the cheapest vehicles. If Garmin and Tom Tom don't work to have their expertise incorporated into those products they will be relegated to the handheld niche.

What is telling here is how the stupidity and short sightedness of the average day trader can cause gross changes in stock valuation for a company that hasn't done anything wrong and doesn't face a real threat from competition for the foreseeable future. This is the mentality that took our economy down. It's sad that no one in the press coming out about this has the clarity of thought to bring this issue to the forefront.

Re:Stupid day traders

[ErikZ]

How do you know it's a day trader, and not the fault of super fast new analyzing and trading software?

Re:Not until it stores the maps local on the devic

[Sandbags]

Yes I read it (and others).

Nope, misses most of the points.
Needs the connection (no dowloaded routes)

Traffic indicator (but not intelligent traffic avoidance, it simply tells you "there's traffic on the route")

Rerouting it's got, but only if you have a connection. That's a problem in a lot of places I go.

Business data is only as accurate as google's crawl information, which i often find lacking, innacurate, or just plain wrong. AAA's database is much more accurate.

As for the "its free" that's exactly my popint. Given TomTom's patents, if Googles system did compete, it would not be able to be free, as the royalites (or patent infringement suits) would make that impossible).

Also, TomTom and Garmin have both made public annoucnements regarding the app. They've reviewed it and found it extremely basic, and no threat to their core business. Yea, it;s going to scuttle some bottom end GPS units, but those are barely profitable as it is, or are sold at a loss, coun ting on recouping revenue on map updages and product upgrades and accessories.

Doing multiple things is just an iPhone issue

[Anonymous Coward]

My Nokia N800 and soon N900 can do multiple things at the same time.

Being on the phone over BT doesn't impact the music playing thru speakers or the GPS working or the ssh connection or the PDF file being viewed. The only limit is which app is currently displayed due to the screen size. Since I'm a hiker, I'm interested in my saved hike tracks and geocache locations.

Re:Inevitable

[Anonymous Coward]

you can't stop evolution

I hope not...

[PinchDuck]

There is a time when a ruggedized GPS is better than a phone. Hiking, biking, and boating come to mind. If you drop or damage your GPS, your phone is still safely in your pocket.
Also it is great to have a standalone GPS without any ability to communicate. Call me a tinfoil hat person, but not having the ability to send my location to mystery server somewhere suits me just fine.

Same diff.

[SuiteSisterMary]

My iPhone with the TomTom North America app *is* a standalone GPS. It requires no network connection whatsoever to run once it's loaded.

No way I'd want something that requires net access to work, though.

That said, the iPhone's GPS chip is crap. Cruising along the TransCanada towards Ottawa, clear sunny blue sky from horizon to horizon, and it's still suddenly deciding I'm on a side road several hundred meters to the right? Crap. Hey, Apple, throw in a serial Bluetooth profile so I can use my Bluetooth GPS keychain with a frighteningly better GPS chip in it.

(Actually, I'm going to drink the TomTom Car Kit koolaid. If it ever comes out.)

Linux build of GPS software using Google Maps?

[nightfire-unique]

What I wouldn't give for that. I built a carputer a couple years ago and have been using some Windows GPS software under VirtualBox. It takes a huge amount of resources to keep it running. Could this lead to the possibility of a useful native X client for GPS navigation?

I'm a cheapskate

[ackthpt]

I'm on my 4th mobile phone, since the 1980's. Mostly because of gaps here and there, because plans were expensive and I didn't really need a mobile too much.

Now I'm on Pre-Paid and love it. Per month cost is 5 to 10 bucks, which leaves a _lot_ of money for things like buying a GPSr which will work more reliably in most places my mobile phone can't even score 1 bar (like much of Uvas Road, near Morgan Hill, California, where I witnessed an accident, but couldn't make a mobile phone call - nobody could! This, not far outside Silicon Valley!)

For commuters in Chicago, Lost Angeles, New Yawk, Bahston, Houston, Atalanta, etc. I expect their mobile to do a fine job for them, but in the crags, hollers and gulches they will likely find themselves utterly lost ("Why does the arrow say I'm 500 ft off the road?" - because it's guessing, based upon rate of speed and direction, which doesn't work is mazes of twisty little passages - all alike.)

I'll stick with a mobile for mobile stuff and a GPSr for GPSr stuff.

Re:I'm a cheapskate

[dangitman]

but in the crags, hollers and gulches they will likely find themselves utterly lost ("Why does the arrow say I'm 500 ft off the road?" - because it's guessing, based upon rate of speed and direction, which doesn't work is mazes of twisty little passages - all alike.)

Except that modern phones use an actual GPS chip, just like your standalone GPS - so they aren't "guessing based on speed and direction" and often also have an actual compass. If you can load maps onto the phone's storage and not have to load it from the network, you don't even need wireless service, it will work just like a standalone unit.

Because no phone can multitask!!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

Too many assumptions here. Just because iphone can not multi-task, no other phone can multi-task?!

There are lot of phone (even not as 'smart' as iphone) which can do that. Heck, my more than 2 years old BB Perl can do that.

This could work.

[Hybridan]

So far, I have not read a single limitation that cannot be solved with a few years and changes which improve the current tech. For example, eventually I believe that the battery life problem will be solved one way or another.

Can anybody think of really good reasons besides technical limitations, as great as they are, and many are listed above, that will keep stand alone devices around?

Also, after reading this I cannot help of think about Ghost in the Shell, and the Standalone Complex.

Dedicated GPS much better at tracking movement

[SuperKendall]

I have never used a GPS and wouldn't know the difference between what comes standard in a GPS phone versus what comes standard in a stand-alone unit. Is it enough for most people who already have the former to also pick up the latter?

The GPS receivers in mobile devices today are OK, and good enough to find your way around pretty easily. If you are standing still they can pinpoint you really well.

True turn-by-turn, where the receiver has to keep up with your position in a few meters so it can warn you a turn is coming up? They are not nearly as good at that. When you are moving in a car, they can often lag or veer in weird ways.

The TomTom app in the iPhone plans to address that by having a custom dock that includes a more powerful receiver that the application talks to, which should yield more accurate results and allow turn-by-turn to work properly. The Droid has a car-specific dock, perhaps that will do something similar - I've not yet heard if that is the case.

Re:Dedicated GPS much better at tracking movement

[slim]

True turn-by-turn, where the receiver has to keep up with your position in a few meters so it can warn you a turn is coming up? They are not nearly as good at that. When you are moving in a car, they can often lag or veer in weird ways.

Is that merely a software thing? As in, the navigation software infers your current position from:
  - The last good GPS reading
  - Velocity based on the last two GPS readings
  - Its knowledge that you're supposed to be on a road

I know my dedicated TomTom sometimes shows me carrying on down a road, when I stop at lights and there's no clear view of the sky.

Re:Dedicated GPS much better at tracking movement

[SuperKendall]

Is that merely a software thing? As in, the navigation software infers your current position from:...

To some extent it is, but the car GPS units recover much quicker when they go astray (I have a Garmin). The iPhone at least behaves somewhat similarly when moving, but just doesn't get a valid fix as soon after a turn.

Re:Dedicated GPS much better at tracking movement

[Guy Harris]

Is that merely a software thing? As in, the navigation software infers your current position from:...

To some extent it is, but the car GPS units recover much quicker when they go astray (I have a Garmin). The iPhone at least behaves somewhat similarly when moving, but just doesn't get a valid fix as soon after a turn.

Is that merely a software thing? (Yes, that's a serious question, the fact that it's the question you were trying to answer nonwithstanding. Is that a result of your Garmin having a better receiver (possibly not capable of being worked around in software), or is it a consequence of Garmin's software currently being better than Apple's (possibly fixable in a software update)?

I have privacy issue with Google GPS

[Anonymous Coward]

You all forgot the main problem with Google GPS and that is the privacy issue. I don't want Google know where I am and follow my movements.
They want to access my phone book on my phone, see who I call, where I go, and what I look for in the internet and associate that to one phone number. A big no to Google. Get out of my space.

     

No Biggie

[bloobamator]

On one hand I don't really care if one technology kills another, older technology. So from that perspective this is a non-story. On the other hand I have a G1 and I love it, and the latest update automatically disables the power-sucking GPS when I navigate out of map mode, which is nice.

After using a T-Mobile G1 to Geocache...

[Anonymous Coward]

I know it will eventually. I use the T-Mobile G1 to download new caches into Geobeagle via pocket query or web access. I can log the caches as I find them by SMS or web browser.

Sometimes I want to do a quick find but my Garmins are at home. I can do it because the G1 is in my pocket.

When I am planning a Geocaching day I load up my eTrex Legend and GPS 76cx with the Macbook at home. The GPSr in the 76cx is much better under a canopy than the G1 but the eTrex is not.

The G1 fails when I am out in the wilderness. The GPS loads and programs like MyTracks, Radar, and Geobeagle work but the Google background map does not fill in. 3G is not needed but without Edge the experience is like a first generation eTrex without a basemap.

If I had the same network map now as I did when I had AMPS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Mobile_Phone_System) under under AT&T it would be a clear winner. I was 25 miles out into a state forest and received a call where now I get nothing.

No but... (Let me gaze into my crystal ball)

[wonkavader]

Consumers will want longer lasting GPS than an Android phone for handheld stuff, at least some of the time.

Some consumers will want GPS navigation where Google doesn't have maps.

So no.

But this will drastically cut into sales of GPSs for people who fit the Android/cell phone niche well, and that is a lot of people.

The response will be some mergers in the GPS space, or just companies going out of business, and will make GPS manufacturers do two things:
    1. Concentrate on handhelds more, over car-based systems -- car systems will still be a big deal and the flagship, but more attention will go into smaller devices you carry with you, like watches and hats/backpack attachements where they can compete much better.
    2. GPS manufacturers will add building topo like you see in Korean GPSs when you drive in Seoul -- 3d reps of many of the buildings in a city.
    3. GPSs manufacturers will look for cheaper data rate contracts based on being able to estimate the data flow from their devices better than an android phone can.
    4. One GPS manufacturer will look to the iPhone to compete, establishing a partnership with Apple to keep all other GPSs navigation software out. It will pay Apple a LOT of money. Apple will later screw them somehow as iPhone sales drop.

Of course I didn't RTFA.....

[schlick]

..... but I don't see it mentioned in the comments. Is there mention of in-car navigation systems? As these become more prevalent these will cut into Garmin's sales too. You really don't need a handheld gps to get around in a city. Maps give plenty of info and with cell based location it is probably more reliable than GPS in a lot of urban canyons. Once you own a handheld outdoor recreation GPS though how often will you upgrade it? I'm still using my Garmin GPS V and that will continue to be fine for me until it breaks. I wouldn't think people upgrade their GPSs as often as they upgrade/replace their cell phones and Garmin shouldn't expect them to.

GPS != Local Knowledge

[snspdaarf]

You are slamming the GPS for the wrong reason. The idea is that the unit will get you there, even if the route is not perfect. Google may have an advantage because they seem to have driven every street out there, where the Garmin routing is based only on the map.

Having said that, I have found entire highways missing from some of the Garmin base maps, and in one case with the detail maps, I could see my destination to the right, yet the GPS was wanting me to turn left, down a one-way street the wrong way. Now, that's crappy routing.

Street View will be killer

[whoop]

Being able to show a Street View picture of where you are going to turn will be killer for a major portion of the public, women. I lost count of how many times I've tried to give the wife directions and receive that blank stare back. Even getting her a GPS hasn't built any confidence in her ability to move around a small area. She knows her set of stores she goes to and that is it. Show her to turn at the McDonald's and such and she could be better able to navigate.

Lord, I hope so.

Google maps/mobile is broken

[Anonymous Coward]

does it work without a 3G connection?

No?

So basically, you're fucked if you happen to be in an area with shitty 3G coverage...
I.e. If you're in the middle of nowhere, where you're most likely to need it, it's going to leave you stranded.

Nokia Maps on the other hand, let you download complete maps to their phones. A damned sight cheaper BTW as well. Maybe they just understand wireless networks and mobile phones a bit better.....

Re:Not until it stores the maps local on the devic

[ozgood]

Dude... they just released it. Tom Tom sucked when it was first released, and you have to pay for upgrades. Google collects massive amounts of data (it's what they specialize in). They've only just started to put it all together. Imagine a couple of releases later. This service will rock, give it time.

No, it's a result of Nokia buying Gate5

[Anonymous Coward]

The producers of smart2go.

Nokia understand mobiles. They understand data costs, and the importance of working without a signal. (i mean, WTF? A satnav that *requires* 3G is just plain dumb.)

Btw, Ovi Maps is now v3 on the n97... It rocks. Though they're going to have to make the navigation & traffic avoidance stuff free now.

Re:Screen size

[Anonymous Coward]

To be fair, your Blackberry Storm is probably also a $350 device. It is being subsidized by your $100 a month data plan that would only cost $40 a month (or less) if you actually paid for your phone though.

Why would I need ..

[BerryMadness]

directions from my computer in my parents basement to the mini-fridge in my parents basement?

No innovation = decreasing profits

[Gyorg_Lavode]

Stand alone GPS's will always exist for those who use them outside of cities, however the GPS companies will continue to see their profits dwindle if they can't innovate. My cell phone/GPS knows where I am, what direction I'm pointing and, with a camera, what I'm looking at. Why can't it show the directions superimposed on the road? Why can't they provide me any other speed or location based abilities?

The problem with GPSs is that they haven't done anything with them while google and cell phone developers are innovating at the speed of light. The GPS manufacturers could just as easily turn a profit by selling apps (tomtom already does), but again, they'd have to compete with someone who is actually innovating.

Did the phone kill the photo star?

[Anonymous Coward]

All cell phones have cameras now. Do we still have digital cameras? Most digital cameras can take video. Do we still have camcorders? Google won't kill GPS, however it will just force Garmin & TomTom to refine their products more and make them more appealing. Case in point, read most of the previous comments... phones have fragile gps reception, aren't physically rugged, you name it. This is a non-issue and I'm not sure it's really worth discussion.

Like smartphones killed MP3?

[SmallFurryCreature]

Oh wait. They didn't. Apple ain't stupid, they don't have an extensive range of MP3 players beside their smartphone just for the hell of it.

Or how cameraphones replaced camera's. Oh wait. They didn't.

Or how that really big black guy with the huge smile has totally replaced me in my gf's affections? Oh wait, she is telling me to get of the phone, Bubba needs his rest.

Different usage patterns

[3247]

Cell phones won't make car navigation obsolete. They haven't made car stereos obsolete, either.

The real reason, however, is not what the author of the linked article thinks. The real reason is that they are just made for two different types of usages: The cell phone or smartphone is the device you carry with you (absorbing MP3 players and PDAs). The car nav is the device you use in your car. Simple as that.

The two classes of devices do share a lot of common hardware: processors, RAM, flash memory – and yes, some phones do come with GPS and some car navs do come with WWAN radio. But that's not the point. The hardware is not important and its price is neglectible. It's just a container for the functions and usage patterns. In other words, it's not important what the device is but what it does and where it does it.

The smartphone does everything in your pocket; the car nav does navigation in your car. Different devices.

Some of still drive and talk

[AmericanInKiev]

The most Annoying flaw in my cellphone GPS, (with which I've driven across the country) Is when I'm late to an appointment, I need to phone ahead, but can't because I'd lose navigation.

That said, real time traffic, and weather related road outages, along with reactive routing are necessary features for a congested metropolis.

The unconnected GPS is dead.

GPS built-in to cars will kill both

[Anonymous Coward]

Now that I have a car with built-in GPS, I have no use for a standalone GPS device or GPS in my phone (and I'd rather have a phone without GPS so that it has longer battery life, is cheaper, and that space in the phone can be used for other things). Some people will still want a portable GPS for things like hiking, but I think car navigation is the biggest market. What I'd like to see is Garmin partner with car manufacturers to provide the built-in GPS in their cars.

Re:GPS built-in to cars will kill both

[riverat1]

It's already happening.

My, you're especially chipper this morning!

[Guppy]

combo vibrating coffee-stirrer/dildo

Honey, my coffee takes kind of odd this morning, did we switch brands again?

What about GPS technology??

[Anonymous Coward]

I am not sure if I am missing something here.

Does the new google device come with the actual GPS technology where it receives satellite signals to locate itself?? Or is it just based on mobile network "Cells" based on which it locates itself. If the new google device does not actually have a GPS HW unit, then there is no point in the whole debate. How will it ever work if you go to remote places like 'Yosemite' where there is no cell coverage at all??

Dupe... Really old dupe.

[cyn1c77]

You must have missed the Slashdot story titled Standalone GPS Receivers Going the Way of the Dodo that was posted 4 months ago.

And I am sure that the people who actually rely on GPS (boats, planes, backcountry travelers, military) will continue to use standalone receivers. History has shown that there is never a cell tower where you really need it and if it is there, you won't have reception when the shit hits the fan.

The rest of us who just like to fruit out with GPS when we really don't need it will happily continue doing so on our cell phones.

Personally - no

[Tomahawk]

Personally, I'll still be using (and updating) my TomTom. While I may use the Android GPS software on occasion, it does require having an active internet connection. Here, 3G connections are expensive - while you pay up front for 1GB a month, using something like this would use up that 1GB quite quickly, and the price per MB after that is high.

The search mechanism will be useful, though - I like that "Bring me to the museum where the King Tut exhibition is in San Fran". But I'll probably do that at home (on WiFi) and still just set the destination into my TomTom...

T.

How Google gets money?

[Anonymous Coward]

Could anybody tell me how Google can survive with their business model? I've never pressed any of the "Ads by Google" ads... And I always ignore all ads in Youtube videos...

But you CAN do this on the iPhone also!

[Smurf]

Actually, the inability to multitask on the iPhone is an artificial limitation that does not apply to some built-in programs like the iPod functionality and the Phone app.

On the iPhone, while you are on a phone call you CAN press the home button and launch any other app without interrupting your call (I jut tried it with the included Maps app and Google Earth). A green band appears on the top of the screen, wich you can touch to return to the phone app.

I'm not sure what would happen if the app resqueted to use the speaker or the microphone, though. On the other hand, I'm not sure what would happen in that case with other phones either!

No not just software

[SuperKendall]

Is that a result of your Garmin having a better receiver

It's that and having more power to work with too (being used in a car it has more ready access to power and being larger it has much larger battery storage).

The really compact GPS standalone devices meant for hiking suffer in the same way, if you try to use them in a car - it's not just software at work here, GPS software is well understood and optimized at this point and the devices do what they can.

VZ Navigator

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm surprised nobody's mentioned the likes of VZNavigator. Basically, "No, Android won't kill standalone GPS", because VZNavigator and equivalents from AT&T, Sprint, US Cellular, etc. have been around for several years. They have not displaced stand-alone GPSes. If having a nice navigator on any old cheap phone hasn't displaced standalone GPS, then having a navigator that only runs on an expensive smartphone surely won't. Note, I've used VZNav, I think the TomTom's a little nicer but both are actually quite nice.

          The one complaint, VZNavigator relies on having phone coverage. Both for map data and to get a GPS fix. The Droid at least has unrestricted standalone GPS, but it still couldn't get a map without data coverage. If I relied on GSM (EDGE and especially HSDPA "3G") then I would be very worried by this. Verizon has excellent EVDO "3G" coverage though, I've been relatively few areas without 3G now, and VERY VERY few that don't at least have 1X. 1X loads the maps a little slower but IS enough for the navigator to do it's thing.

Re:Not until it stores the maps local on the devic

[Sandbags]

On that we likely agree...

Still, don't market it as a TomTom killer if it's still a beta. I know Google themselves is not making such a fuss, it's mostly clueless media, but the media should be schooled and get it right.

Biggest issue though, it's live, not static data. I'd be fine if it auto-updated data as it had access, but its still useless if i can't use it where there's no connection... That's not a minor change.

Some reports agree with you...

[sean.peters]

... while others say that no, the TomTom car kit device really does contain an auxiliary GPS receiver. But in either case, the fact remains: TomTom thought it necessary to boost the GPS reception for the iPhone, because the equipment built into the phone was insufficient.

Didn't Austrailia make this illegal?

[WindShadow]

I have the feeling that in Australia using a phone as a GPS is illegal And it seems to me that having the maps actually in the device is a requirement, Internet is not that omnipresent.

GPS and computer maps are still only "best effort" information, there was an article about both Google and Mapquest routing people down a flight of stairs, and Google in NJ had us following a road which ended at a cow pasture. The tech to match satellite photos to map data, as a sanity check, seems to have a way to go.