What you missed above - "older versions of gtk". The other thing you missed is "People using workstations in offices accessing stuff over X remotely" - WTF do you think they are accessing? It's not going to be Firefox they can run that locally. It's not going to be Thunderbird they are running that locally. It's not going to be Chromium they are running that locally. Noticing a pattern yet? So think then - what on earth is so constrained that they cannot run it on their own box? You didn't think? I'll give you an example - in my workplace it's engineering and scientific software that only runs on RHEL5 (or CentOS) vintage linux, and either serious hardware requirements or licence requirements mean it makes far more sense to run on something big instead of locally. Such software has a long development cycle and a lot of it hasn't even got as far as considering gtk2 let alone gtk3. Surely you knew that or you would not know enough about the subject matter to be able to put together a useful reply - did I really have to spell all of that out just because you missed so many things in a very short post? So I'll write it again in a different way - hardly anything being displayed remotely with X is going to be using those new toolkits so it's a rather stupid strawman to state that X is broken because some toolkits not in use much for remote displayed applications use a slow transport mechanism. IMHO it's also rather stupid to blame X for the choices made with those more recent toolkits - surely if anyone should be blamed it's whoever chose to change the behaviour in their toolkits? Blaming X for a gnome choice is like blaming a bridge builder for a Humvee breaking down half way across.
Conflict of interest is just what they do - ever wondered why there's a vast web of private contractors with points of failure (or patriotism) such as Snowden when it should really be a tight military operation? It's all about rewarding cronies. Retiring and getting millions funnelled into your pockets is far more lucrative than being promoted a rank.
Look halfway down the page - point II. The ignorant fucker who wrote that taking Daniel Stone's joke from the video linked above as a fact. Profanity is deserved since whoever wrote it failed to do a truly minimal amount of homework and is just wasting bytes and pixels. Sorry, that is clearly just a derivative product of the video from someone that watched it without enough background to understand it.
Surely there's something other than that video from close to two years ago or a newbies review of it?
Only a couple of them, Daniel Stone and the xdamage guy. However there is a lot of X code in Wayland so some people have been retrospectively called "Wayland guys" to inflate the numbers. It's a bit of weasel trick from some fanboys so the actual Wayland developers shouldn't be blamed for such misguided cheerleading.
Surely you could at least have a link to the finished presentation instead of the error filled unfinished draft at linuxconf.au 2013 where he doesn't even have a screenshot and forgot his video cable? The "X is slow because gedit takes a long time to start" (because it's loading half of fucking gnome3!) is one of the low points, another, which is not his fault just one of people misunderstanding, is where his joke about only three people understanding X input fell flat and had been cited by the clueless as a "fact"! I got the impression from that video that it was an informal update on the state of Wayland and not meant to be taken as an authority on the subject, especially since his slides were not finished and he didn't have anything to back up some of his assertions mostly because he hadn't written that bit yet. Also consider the context of it being about the suitability of X on telephones. Does it make more sense now?
Some gnome3 stuff is "most" now? People using workstations in offices accessing stuff over X remotely are still very unlikely to be running any gnome3 stuff from the remote machine. It's not "just motif", it's qt and older versions of gtk plus all the rest that do things sensibly instead of blitting bitmaps at frequent intervals.
They want to provide low latency at the cost of requiring high bandwidth, however X latency is not a problem if you have plenty of bandwidth so it's a non-solution to a strawman argument.
Daniel Stone has done a bit on X over the last 5+ years and the stuff he is interested in, the gnome3 stuff and phone software, is no longer network transparent. Everything else is, up to and including his Nokia implementation, but you've taken things out of context or heard a rumour that came from misunderstanding Daniel Stone's comments at linuxconf.au 2013.
Including forgetting to bring his cables, forgetting to finish writing up his presentation, forgetting to remind people that his "three people who understand..." was a joke, forgetting that gedit needs to start up a pile of gnome3 stuff so it's a poor measure of X speed and so on. You are not seeing him at his best. There must be a video or something out there of the finished presentation. You also need to understand the context is about displays for phones, which is one reason why he is disparaging about running old applications and why there is so much "nobody does whatever" when it's really "nobody in the current gnome project does whatever even if everyone else does.
Have you seen the videos about why X is fundamentally broken?
There's one that people link to a LOT of Daniel Stone giving an unfinished powerpoint presentation at linuxconf.au 2013 where he forgot his cable so you can't actually see his Wayland desktop. It's the one where he says X is slow and gives startup times of gedit on Gnome3 as proof! That's like saying MS Windows is slow because homemade VB crapware that needs to load a pile of stuff before it can get started is slow. He also has the joke about only three people understanding X input and many people who link to that video do not understand that it is a joke. It's the one where he makes fun of people that want to run applications older than gnome3, or who want to have shaped windows, and makes fun of the Enlightenment window manager which is a project where developers have put in a lot of time to add support for Wayland. I'm pretty sure Daniel Stone would not want that presentation held up as being an authority on the subject especially since it was still a work in progress at the time and had a few obvious errors - I'd have to watch it again before I could tell you where but hopefully I don't have to and there's a finished version somewhere. The largest mistake I recall was "nobody uses X for sending stuff over the network anymore" which should have been changed to "nobody in the gnome3 project uses it but everyone else does".
I have not seen any other videos on the topic that come close to proof of anything. Care to link one? Even better, something in text instead of the postliterate shit of having to sit down and watch a talking head reading something out that you could read yourself in 1/10 of the time.
Yes, a few bits related to putting X on a phone, which though it was done very nicely and I still own that phone it doesn't come down to much in the way of adding features to X.
they still develop new features and fix bugs in X.org at the same time
Not unless you go as far as claiming that the people that wrote some X code that was borrowed by Wayland afterwards (there's a lot of it) are now suddenly Wayland developers.
Stuff the Mir developers want but the Wayland developers think is not important or should be dealt with at the application level. It's that simple - a different list of desired features.
Ah yes, "notion that Irish economy is built on this loophole" strawman
It's a perfectly reasonable assumption of your viewpoint to make since you are asserting that their economy will utterly collapse if it is closed. If you don't mean that then what do you mean? If you did actually mean something else and are not merely attempting to deny responsibility for you own words then please plainly state it instead of expecting mind reading.
I called you on your "debating properly is a bad idea" slip.
It wasn't a slip, it was a deliberate insult to convey my displeasure of you are acting like an amoral student politician who never grew up.
Thanks I'd forgotten his name. If Con could do it for so long then why can't "Bobbied" give it a try if he actually wants to instead of being an armchair expert as to why he's be so much better than Linus with a software project.
You misunderstand. Linus routinely personally insults people he disagrees with
Try reading the examples and come back when you find some to show he's "routinely" insulting the person instead of what the person has done - I don't misunderstand, you are misrepresenting. People a century ago were not somehow more stupid than us and more likely to misunderstand and take personal affront for something indirect (such as your patronising putdown of myself based on something that does not appear to be true).
Some poor fuckers are behind proxies that blacklist sites once key words are detected. That's why online newsletters do that and why some posters here do that. It's about fooling machines and not human beings.
That assumes that I'm as good as Linus technically and all other things are equal... technical experience with the kernel, mine is limited
There was a medical doctor who was collecting kernel patches that had quite a quite a following for a while, including some articles about him here on Slashdot. He didn't even run linux on his work machine and when he started his alternative patch collection it's likely that he had less technical experience with the kernel than yourself. Despite how that ended up (an argument over a scheduler) he was providing a bleeding edge alternative kernel for desktop machines for a while. The only problem there was that he did not understand his limits and take advice from others on one topic when he was perfectly happy to take advice from others on other topics.
Get some older relatives to tell you some stories of when they were growing up without sanitising them and you'll learn how wrong you are. You've likely missed the boat for 1914, but I managed to talk to some relatives about it a few decades ago. What you read about days gone past has been cleaned up and is not an accurate indication of how people spoke, and we are furthur hampered by talkies corresponding with the rise of a moral crusade aimed at Hollywood which gives very distorted view of the 1930s etc from film and recordings.
I strongly disagree. There have been plenty of situations where I have had to escalate a polite refusal to something more easily understood and I'm sure you've had plenty of those as well. People are very good at ignoring polite refusals.
Many people think I never swear, and one co-worker was amazed when I went to talk with some welders and I swore a lot. Sometimes it's the best way to communicate a point and the only way to be taken seriously in some situations, especially when the people involved have English as a second language but are fluent in English profanity. One nice example was a sign in an aircraft in PNG.
In the event of aircraft depressurisation.... If plane go bugga up...
The wild west had a lot of advantages over "civilization", you did not have to suffer fools.
Really? Where do you think a lot of fools went? It especially applies to gold rush situations all over the planet that century and not just the "wild west".
I was probably using a handheld light meter for photography before you were born so I am very well aware that there is not two orders of magnitude of light between when the sun is at 45 degrees and directly overhead. Why are you persisting with this utterly stupid bluff? As far as reality denial is going here you are beating the people who think fossils were placed six thousand years ago to test us.
Slashdot Mirror
Or something like EVAS, which ironicly now also has Wayland support despite it being pretty well the canvas that Wayland is aiming for.
NONE of those things is X windows.
What you missed above - "older versions of gtk".
The other thing you missed is "People using workstations in offices accessing stuff over X remotely" - WTF do you think they are accessing? It's not going to be Firefox they can run that locally. It's not going to be Thunderbird they are running that locally. It's not going to be Chromium they are running that locally.
Noticing a pattern yet? So think then - what on earth is so constrained that they cannot run it on their own box? You didn't think? I'll give you an example - in my workplace it's engineering and scientific software that only runs on RHEL5 (or CentOS) vintage linux, and either serious hardware requirements or licence requirements mean it makes far more sense to run on something big instead of locally. Such software has a long development cycle and a lot of it hasn't even got as far as considering gtk2 let alone gtk3. Surely you knew that or you would not know enough about the subject matter to be able to put together a useful reply - did I really have to spell all of that out just because you missed so many things in a very short post?
So I'll write it again in a different way - hardly anything being displayed remotely with X is going to be using those new toolkits so it's a rather stupid strawman to state that X is broken because some toolkits not in use much for remote displayed applications use a slow transport mechanism. IMHO it's also rather stupid to blame X for the choices made with those more recent toolkits - surely if anyone should be blamed it's whoever chose to change the behaviour in their toolkits? Blaming X for a gnome choice is like blaming a bridge builder for a Humvee breaking down half way across.
Conflict of interest is just what they do - ever wondered why there's a vast web of private contractors with points of failure (or patriotism) such as Snowden when it should really be a tight military operation? It's all about rewarding cronies. Retiring and getting millions funnelled into your pockets is far more lucrative than being promoted a rank.
Look halfway down the page - point II. The ignorant fucker who wrote that taking Daniel Stone's joke from the video linked above as a fact. Profanity is deserved since whoever wrote it failed to do a truly minimal amount of homework and is just wasting bytes and pixels.
Sorry, that is clearly just a derivative product of the video from someone that watched it without enough background to understand it.
Surely there's something other than that video from close to two years ago or a newbies review of it?
Only a couple of them, Daniel Stone and the xdamage guy. However there is a lot of X code in Wayland so some people have been retrospectively called "Wayland guys" to inflate the numbers. It's a bit of weasel trick from some fanboys so the actual Wayland developers shouldn't be blamed for such misguided cheerleading.
Surely you could at least have a link to the finished presentation instead of the error filled unfinished draft at linuxconf.au 2013 where he doesn't even have a screenshot and forgot his video cable?
The "X is slow because gedit takes a long time to start" (because it's loading half of fucking gnome3!) is one of the low points, another, which is not his fault just one of people misunderstanding, is where his joke about only three people understanding X input fell flat and had been cited by the clueless as a "fact"!
I got the impression from that video that it was an informal update on the state of Wayland and not meant to be taken as an authority on the subject, especially since his slides were not finished and he didn't have anything to back up some of his assertions mostly because he hadn't written that bit yet.
Also consider the context of it being about the suitability of X on telephones. Does it make more sense now?
Some gnome3 stuff is "most" now? People using workstations in offices accessing stuff over X remotely are still very unlikely to be running any gnome3 stuff from the remote machine. It's not "just motif", it's qt and older versions of gtk plus all the rest that do things sensibly instead of blitting bitmaps at frequent intervals.
They want to provide low latency at the cost of requiring high bandwidth, however X latency is not a problem if you have plenty of bandwidth so it's a non-solution to a strawman argument.
Daniel Stone has done a bit on X over the last 5+ years and the stuff he is interested in, the gnome3 stuff and phone software, is no longer network transparent. Everything else is, up to and including his Nokia implementation, but you've taken things out of context or heard a rumour that came from misunderstanding Daniel Stone's comments at linuxconf.au 2013.
Including forgetting to bring his cables, forgetting to finish writing up his presentation, forgetting to remind people that his "three people who understand ..." was a joke, forgetting that gedit needs to start up a pile of gnome3 stuff so it's a poor measure of X speed and so on. You are not seeing him at his best. There must be a video or something out there of the finished presentation. You also need to understand the context is about displays for phones, which is one reason why he is disparaging about running old applications and why there is so much "nobody does whatever" when it's really "nobody in the current gnome project does whatever even if everyone else does.
There's one that people link to a LOT of Daniel Stone giving an unfinished powerpoint presentation at linuxconf.au 2013 where he forgot his cable so you can't actually see his Wayland desktop. It's the one where he says X is slow and gives startup times of gedit on Gnome3 as proof! That's like saying MS Windows is slow because homemade VB crapware that needs to load a pile of stuff before it can get started is slow. He also has the joke about only three people understanding X input and many people who link to that video do not understand that it is a joke. It's the one where he makes fun of people that want to run applications older than gnome3, or who want to have shaped windows, and makes fun of the Enlightenment window manager which is a project where developers have put in a lot of time to add support for Wayland. I'm pretty sure Daniel Stone would not want that presentation held up as being an authority on the subject especially since it was still a work in progress at the time and had a few obvious errors - I'd have to watch it again before I could tell you where but hopefully I don't have to and there's a finished version somewhere.
The largest mistake I recall was "nobody uses X for sending stuff over the network anymore" which should have been changed to "nobody in the gnome3 project uses it but everyone else does".
I have not seen any other videos on the topic that come close to proof of anything. Care to link one? Even better, something in text instead of the postliterate shit of having to sit down and watch a talking head reading something out that you could read yourself in 1/10 of the time.
Not unless you go as far as claiming that the people that wrote some X code that was borrowed by Wayland afterwards (there's a lot of it) are now suddenly Wayland developers.
Stuff the Mir developers want but the Wayland developers think is not important or should be dealt with at the application level.
It's that simple - a different list of desired features.
It's a perfectly reasonable assumption of your viewpoint to make since you are asserting that their economy will utterly collapse if it is closed.
If you don't mean that then what do you mean?
If you did actually mean something else and are not merely attempting to deny responsibility for you own words then please plainly state it instead of expecting mind reading.
It wasn't a slip, it was a deliberate insult to convey my displeasure of you are acting like an amoral student politician who never grew up.
Thanks I'd forgotten his name.
If Con could do it for so long then why can't "Bobbied" give it a try if he actually wants to instead of being an armchair expert as to why he's be so much better than Linus with a software project.
Try reading the examples and come back when you find some to show he's "routinely" insulting the person instead of what the person has done - I don't misunderstand, you are misrepresenting. People a century ago were not somehow more stupid than us and more likely to misunderstand and take personal affront for something indirect (such as your patronising putdown of myself based on something that does not appear to be true).
Some poor fuckers are behind proxies that blacklist sites once key words are detected. That's why online newsletters do that and why some posters here do that. It's about fooling machines and not human beings.
Considering his strong views on alternative medicine that led him to delay his cancer treatments - maybe he would still be alive.
There was a medical doctor who was collecting kernel patches that had quite a quite a following for a while, including some articles about him here on Slashdot. He didn't even run linux on his work machine and when he started his alternative patch collection it's likely that he had less technical experience with the kernel than yourself. Despite how that ended up (an argument over a scheduler) he was providing a bleeding edge alternative kernel for desktop machines for a while. The only problem there was that he did not understand his limits and take advice from others on one topic when he was perfectly happy to take advice from others on other topics.
Get some older relatives to tell you some stories of when they were growing up without sanitising them and you'll learn how wrong you are. You've likely missed the boat for 1914, but I managed to talk to some relatives about it a few decades ago. What you read about days gone past has been cleaned up and is not an accurate indication of how people spoke, and we are furthur hampered by talkies corresponding with the rise of a moral crusade aimed at Hollywood which gives very distorted view of the 1930s etc from film and recordings.
I strongly disagree. There have been plenty of situations where I have had to escalate a polite refusal to something more easily understood and I'm sure you've had plenty of those as well. People are very good at ignoring polite refusals.
Many people think I never swear, and one co-worker was amazed when I went to talk with some welders and I swore a lot. Sometimes it's the best way to communicate a point and the only way to be taken seriously in some situations, especially when the people involved have English as a second language but are fluent in English profanity.
.... ...
One nice example was a sign in an aircraft in PNG.
In the event of aircraft depressurisation
If plane go bugga up
Really? Where do you think a lot of fools went? It especially applies to gold rush situations all over the planet that century and not just the "wild west".
I was probably using a handheld light meter for photography before you were born so I am very well aware that there is not two orders of magnitude of light between when the sun is at 45 degrees and directly overhead.
Why are you persisting with this utterly stupid bluff?
As far as reality denial is going here you are beating the people who think fossils were placed six thousand years ago to test us.