This shouldn't happen on Linux. At least not if things are installed properly. Let's look at an example. FooBar and YooHoo both require Wingbat; here's what/usr/lib might look like:
Both YooHoo and FooBar are linked against libwingbat.so.1. A new, *compatible* version(usually a bugfux release, or in some cases a version which adds another function, but doesn't touch existing functions) is released. It will then become libwingbat.so.1.0.3 or somsuch; libwingbat.so.1 will then by symbolically linked to the new library.
If a wholly new and incompatible libwingbat is released, then its so-version would be bumped; so you'd have:
Then, FooBar(which needs the new library), would be compiled against libwingbat.so.2. Now, library authors are *very* careful about stuff like this. If you've had problems, I would guess that they'd be package-management related.
Barclay family motto:
Aut agere aut mori.
(Either action or death.)
then the next will really floor you -- applications will keep their own.DLL's in their own application directories. Just like in the DOS days, you will be able to blow an app completely off your machine by deleting its directory, and version differences will become irrelevant.
Well, no a bad idea totally. It'd help for DLL-hell type problems, but let's raise a few points:
1) Firstly, decent packaging makes DLL-hell much less likely. I use the experimental variant of Debian, and even then, there are rarely library dependancy problems. The problems that do arise are usually easily fixable, as opposed to most of the DLL-hell problems that Windows has(ie: two applications requiring incompatible versions of the same library).
2) Secondly, Linux(as a *nix variant) allows one to have multiple library versions installed at the same time, without trouble. That was one of the design considerations.
3) Security. The main reason for shared libraries isn't space-saving(as you imply), but rather security and stability. The FooBar application relies on library Wingbat. So does app YooHoo. Now, the Wingbat library has a security hole that was just found. Oops! Well, a patch is released, packages are made and sent out. You upgrade(or your computer does it automatically), and poof - all of a sudden, YooHoo, FooBar, and all the other apps that use the Wingbat library are more secure. Ditto with stability. The Wingbat library has a nasty bug which causes crashes. Okay, a fix is made, packages are installed, and now neither the YooHoo nor the FooBar apps are susceptible to that particular bug.
Anyways, I just wanted to say that the main reasons for shared libraries isn't really the space issue. Nor is it a performance thing. It's a quality thing.
Barclay family motto:
Aut agere aut mori.
(Either action or death.)
Wow this is quite an accomplishment, considering the project activity statistics are at 0%, with 0 downloads for the month. Also, they have no released files and no CVS access. Where, exactly, did you get this code from? vaporware.com?
X was originally designed and run on computers with less than a meg of RAM. While it didn't have all the features a modern X implementation has, it had all the biggies.
The idea that "X is bloated" is most definetly a vast misconception. What do you base this observation on? It definetly isn't quantitative analysis, elsewise you wouldn't say it's bloated.
So, you must be basing your opinion on subjective analysis. Now, KDE2 is pretty beefy. I bet at least 75% of people who use it, and this it's slow, will blame that on X. But if that were the case, how can I run, oh, say, Blackbox which is very fast? Since the X implementation is the same between the two, obviously that's not it. The same applies to GNOME; X isn't the bottleneck.
Now, running remote X apps is a bit of a bandwidth hog. On a slow modem.:) Over a LAN, it's nice and snappy. Over cable or DSL, it's also rather fast, despite sometimes obvious latency(which is a factor of the network, not so much the X protocol).
Anyways, there are projects around which have entire X implentations that take up a few megs in storage, and less than a meg in RAM. XFree86-based implementations, to boot. Considerng this Yopy will have 64M of RAM, and 16M of flash, I don't think it's an issue;) Suuure, you *could* use something lighter. But then why not run Linux with a single shell in the console text-mode? 'cause we don't have to:)
Just a misconception:)
Barclay family motto:
Aut agere aut mori.
(Either action or death.)
Last month or so, I telnetted into my Alcatel modem. (10.0.0.128, I think?) Anyways, I had read the PDF manual I had found.
So, poking around, I made a typo. No biggie, right?
I reset the modem. Uh-oh. No 'net. Damn, I hope I didn't break it. Look at the clock. It was 2:23AM. Okay, keep trying for a while.
Damn, still doesn't work. Call a fried. Nope, she can't connect either. UH-OH.
Call Sympatico(my provider). Having troubles? I ask. Yup, they are. Uh-oh. Well, could you tell me the *exact* time the trouble started? "Sorry sir, I don't know," the first-line techie responds. "Okay, mind if I speak to an engineer? Thanks:)" I say.
Anyways, to make a long story short, the problems started at around 2:19:23AM. Pretty much the exact time I made that typo. Coincidence? Possibly.
I probably shouldn't be posting this to Slashdot...
(Oh, yeah, this is an Alcatel modem;)
Barclay family motto:
Aut agere aut mori.
(Either action or death.)
The only way you can forever avoid the issues that you say you fear Progeny will usher in, is for Linux to remain forever the province of the elitist hacker.
<BR>
Please read my comment again, and avoid twisting my words this time.<BR>
<BR>
I was not talking about excluding Progeny users from Debian support channels, I was warning Progeny users to be respectful of the Debian community, because they're using a non-Debian-standard distribution. And a commercial one, at that, which has support available from Progeny.
Dave
Barclay family motto:
Aut agere aut mori.
(Either action or death.)
a) A lot of Debian support people are very knowledgable. It doesn't matter what you're running, they could probably fix it. I've seen lots of Red Hat and other distribution-users asking for help in #debian because we have a reputation for competence.
b) It does matter where they got it from. Debian packages go through a rigorous testing procedure. As soon as they get the packages from a non-standard Debian source, the quality of the package is questionable.
c) No, of course we shouldn't say "don't ask me about it, blah, blah, blah." But I help the Debian user base. Why? Because it's what I do for the Debian community. That community puts together a distribution I like, and I repay them by helping to support their users. Now, if I'm supporting Red Hat users, or Slackware users, I'm not really paying back the Debian maintainers, am I? No, of course not. And when I'm helping a Red Hat user, there's a Debian user who isn't gettng help. Simple as that. Now, I don't exclude people based on what distribution they run. BUT, if they run a non-Debian distribution(like Progeny or Red Hat), and they're whiney and disrespectful to boot, you're damned right I won't help. It's not worth the effort.
Barclay family motto:
Aut agere aut mori.
(Either action or death.)
From a technical standpoint(which is what counts in tech support), no, you are not running Debian. Progeny would be, though... But that's not the point here:)
For people to help you, you need to have a certain attitude. If you go to the debian-user mailing list, or the irc.openprojects.net #debian channel running Red Hat, you better be nice. Not because you're "not cool," but because you're getting help from people who are trying to contribute to the Debian community, and you wouldn't be a part of that.
The original comment was intended as a warning to Progeny users; if you want support from the Debian community, you need to respect said community. Elsewise, Progeny and the Debian community could have a tense relationship.
Dave
Barclay family motto:
Aut agere aut mori.
(Either action or death.)
I agree that it's a bad idea to ask the Debian organization to support a commercial distribution, and Progeny isn't doing that.
Nope, they arn't. But that doesn't mean anything if all of a sudden large portions of Debian maintainers' and supporters' efforts go towards maintaining Progeny; regardless of whether Progeny asked for it or not.
Also, the Debian packagers that Progeny employs are some pretty key ones.
I realize that much. My original comment wasn't meant to belittle Progeny in the least, and if I could retroactively edit it I would. The purpose was to point out to those who read the Slashdot article and then download Progeny that Progeny is *not* Debian, and that they should maintain a certain attitude when getting support from typical Debian sources.
One of them mainains X, which is huge and pretty critical.
Yes, Branden Robinson. Pleasant fellow:) I filed a rather long bug report. Heck, they wern't even bugs, they were just requests for behavioural modifications to the debconf part of XFree86. Very nice guy, and I know it'd be a bitch finding another XFree maintainer if he stopped(let's not bring up Mozilla). And I packaged Mozilla 0.8 myself(took me about two weeks, and finished just before Kitame released his), up to par with Debian Policy. It was absolute hell. While Mozilla doesn't play by regular rules(because of its multi-platform nature, I suppose), and XFree86 would, I realize how much work it'd be.
Also, note that the Progeny CEO is the Debian founder, and is not one to "take advantage" of the volunteer developers, he is solidly behind the Debian way of doing things and actually created a lot of it. They also have me as chairman for a little while longer (although I have never worked there), and then I'll be on their advisory board, and I am the main author of the DFSG and again not someone to "take advantage" of volunteer developers.
I'll refer to my first reply on your first comment. Even though Progeny may do everything right, Debian volounteers might still feel taken advantage of.
Thanks
No, no, thank you;)
Barclay family motto:
Aut agere aut mori.
(Either action or death.)
Agreed. And it's nice that a former DPL points that out:)
Perhaps I should have been more specific. Instead of "Progeny taking advantage of the Debian community", perhaps I should have said "the Debian community being taken advantage of".
But, damnit, I've seen it start to happen already. I'd be a maintainer now if I wasn't joining the army. But I am, so I passed. However, I still put a good 5-10 hours a week into helping Debian users, so I feel that I'm allowed to voice my opinion. I see people posting to debian-user and people coming into #debian asking for help. And not politely. In fact, just today, someone repeatedly pasted an error message at me at ten-minute intervals, like I was a bot. Had they been a Progeny user, and the problem had been Progeny-specific, I would have been more than irritated; I would have been mad.
That's why I'm worried. I mean, Progeny can do everything right, and they can still end up alienating the vast majority of the Debian community. They can't control who their users are, and they can't control how they act.
Ah well... We'll see:) I'm not one for predicting doomsday, so I'll try and relax, and watch how it pans out:)
P.S.: To the Progeny developers, especially Branden who is doing great(visible) work: you're doing a good job:) I don't mean to belittle any of you, I'd just like to try to head off what could be a nasty community fight. If I come off differently, I apologize profusely.
Barclay family motto:
Aut agere aut mori.
(Either action or death.)
They will eventually. And I actually won't mind for the most part. Just part of the community:) But if I end up catering to arrogant, disrespectful, inconsiderate Progeny users, I will stop. How long will the people that make Debian what it is be able to put up with it, while still holding Progeny in a good light?
I dunno, and I hope we don't find out.
Barclay family motto:
Aut agere aut mori.
(Either action or death.)
Well, if Progeny is not Debian, why does it have Debian in its name?
If you expect that people will be blamed for asking support for Progeny in the Debian lists, let's open them their eyes now and tell them that what they are buying is not what they might think it is?
Allright, I thought I made it clear, but here it is again:
Progeny Debian Linux is based on Debian Linux, a distribution put together by volounteers worldwide. Progeny Linux is nearly completely compatible with the normal, non-commercial Debian distribution. However, Progeny is a commercial entity. Debian is not, it's a community effort. On the technical side of things, there's not a whole lot of difference between the two.
But let's look at Mandrake and Red Hat. The first few Mandrake releases were basically Red Hat clones with KDE added on. Yet the two were considered very different, because both companies had very different goals and very different target audiences.
My big worry isn't that Progeny is trying to make a buck based on Debian the distribution. My worry is that they'll take advantage of Debian the community. Perhaps by shirking on tech support and reffering people to regular Debian support channels, perhaps by not contributing back to Debian proper's package base. This situation is fraught with difficulty, and I think that the Progeny people should step very lightly. They risk to alienate the Debian community, which would be a bad thing for Debian the community, Debian the distribution, and Progeny the company.
Barclay family motto:
Aut agere aut mori.
(Either action or death.)
but, i have a sneaking feeling that, if you came into #debian, or the mailing lists and asked politely for help. that you would still get flamed for using somthing "watered down", and not as "hardcore" as debian.
Well, I won't totally disagree with you. I am one of those Debian "helpers". I subscribe to debian-user and reply where I can, and I'm often in irc.openprojects.net's #debian helping people out(my nick is ElectricElf).
Anyways, I do, on occasion, turn some of the "needier" Progeny/Storm/OtherVariant users away. They're using a commercial distribution, so why don't they pay for their tech support? So far, Progeny hasn't really done a whole lot for the Debian community. They have some more up-to-date packages, but they arn't yet available in the regular Debian archives. They do employ a couple of packagers... but there are hundreds doing unpaid work, so it's just a drop in the bucket.
That being said, by and large, I see people helping people. It isn't often that someone who is polite and considerate gets shot out of the water for using a Debian variant.
On the other hand, Progeny is making money off my giving tech support. I think I'm allowed to say, "No, either give me a cut or I won't help your users." Sure, it sounds cold, and I have very rarely thought that, but it's really quite true. A company selling something should not rely on volounteers to do part of their job for them. Those volounteers will eventually get pissed and angry, for being taken advantage of.
So you see, it's actually quite complex:)
Barclay family motto:
Aut agere aut mori.
(Either action or death.)
Okay?:) Just like Mandrake is not Red Hat. Just like Slackware is not the Linux From Scratch HOWTO/distribution. Please keep that in mind. If you join Debian mailing lists, demanding support for Progeny, you won't be pleased with the results. If you go on Debian IRC channels and demand support for Progeny, you'll get flamed.
If you have a good attitude though, you'll be welcomed. Be nice, be polite. But Progeny is not Debian, so don't expect help from Debian users. Progeny is a variant, and hence rather Debian-like. I'd even say it's compatible on a few levels. But it's not Debian.
Barclay family motto:
Aut agere aut mori.
(Either action or death.)
But how do you call this news? A picture, sent in anonymously, claiming to be the successor to the Palm V? I didn't even have to open up an image editor to start thinking that this thing was a fake. Take a look closely around the "m505" marker. Sort of looks odd, doesn't it? Like the edges of another image were blended into the image of the palm. Look at the left bottom edge of the screen, and the right bottom edge. The right edge is further away from the silkscreen than the left edge; *way* more than can be explained by perspective.
Anyways, this photo may or may not be doctored, it may or may not be real. But you can't call this news; an unsubstantiated image on the web, with nothing to back it up, sent in ANONYMOUSLY is not, I repeat, not news.
Okay, I've opened up the image in the Gimp. Yeah, it's probably a fake. I could be wrong, though. Anyways, the "m505" is definetly plastered on top of it, and it looks like the text was originally straight, then had a transform applied to it in order to make it looks slanted. There were also some more technical things that indicate falseness. Now, this could be an image generated by the 3com engineers; so it could be very real. BUT COME ON!
Before you start bitching at Malda about what news is, go and watch a real news program on television. One that reports on wars, and politics. Then look up the definition in a dictionary. Then, for Christ's sake, apply some common sense. Chances are, this picture is a fraud. Arse. Have a nice day.
Dave
Barclay family motto:
Aut agere aut mori.
(Either action or death.)
You're a telepath. You can read minds. You live in a society where nobody else can read minds...
In this analogy, it's like this woman is suggesting you get a brain operation to remove your telepathy, so that other people will accept you. You've got good, close friends(analogous to the community around open source/Free Software), but in order to be accepted by a larger audience, you have to cut out part of yourself.
Anyways, I think I'm done...:)
Barclay family motto:
Aut agere aut mori.
(Either action or death.)
Incidentally, I wouldn't really mind too much if there was one "standard" desktop under Linux... So long as they kept some compatiblity. For instance, if I could run apps from this theoretical toolkit/desktop environment under GNOME or KDE or whatever else, I'd be happy.
I'm just worried about how this author puts everything; it's like she's been using Linux all these years, but might as well have been using Windows.
Barclay family motto:
Aut agere aut mori.
(Either action or death.)
From here on in, when I refer to "Linux", I refer to pretty much any GNU/Linux distribution.
Linux means a lot of things. It means choice, it means stability, it means open source and Free Software.
This person wants to make Linux standard across the board. "One window manager. One shell. One 'look and feel'." Well, no offense or anything, but if that comes about, then it isn't Linux any more, is it?
Sure, it'll use the Linux kernel. And it'll probably run off Free Software. But "Linux" will no longer mean what we have made it mean, as a community. I'm not saying this is a horrible, bad things to do. But Linux has become popular because of what WE think it should be. It's popular because it's configurable. It's popular because it's powerful. It's popular because it's stable. And it's especially popular because we can make it pretty.
So, if we loose all those things, what's left? Honestly? If that all comes about, then putting aside philisophical debates, why would you run Linux? What'd be the point? Aside from it being Free Software, aside from it being open source, WHY? You'd be running a free, somewhat more stable version Windows or MacOS.
I don't get it. I like my Linux. It's powerful, it's configurable, it's pretty, and it's stable. It has gotten as far as it has because of those attributes. If it has to loose them to go further... well, screw it as far as I'm concerned. It's not worth it.
Dave
Barclay family motto:
Aut agere aut mori.
(Either action or death.)
Because then you are interfering with public/private property. Just because a plane flies over your house doesn't give you the right to shoot it down for tresspassing. Think about it.
A) That's a bad example, because we're not talking about actively, purposefully causing permanent damage to property, nor are we talking about killing people.
B) Your private lot does not extend upwards an infinite distance. At a certain altitude(can't remember the figure, but it's fairly low), you no longer own the airspace.
If someone did land a plane on your property, just for the heck of it(it wasn't an emergency, and they had a licensed airfield nearby), you could do whatever you wanted to it. If you didn't have a tractor to haul it away, you could cut it up into little pieces and move it off your property.
There are limits, of course(in this case, the owner of the aircraft has to have refused to remove it themselves, for instance), but you get the idea.
Personally, I wouldn't use one of these directly myself. However, if there was a restaurant in the area which had a "no cell phone" policy, and enforced it with one of these devices, I'd frequent it regularily.
Dave
Barclay family motto:
Aut agere aut mori.
(Either action or death.)
We really, really need something better than X and we need it now.
Okay:) You've got a text editor, you've got a compiler, and you've got source code. Start coding.
No? Why not? Listen, replacing X isn't going to be easy. And unless you're going to do it, shut up and stop whining. Instead, THANK the people who have *given* you a Free implementation of the X Windowing System. Got it? Good.
Barclay family motto:
Aut agere aut mori.
(Either action or death.)
GNOME has a small learning curve for a number of programmers, as it's C-based.
GNOME has the lowest footprint and provides the most functionality.
KDE is easiest to learn(but not to use; the longer something takes to learn, the more complex it is. Generally, the more complex an app is, the easier it is to get work done. Ease of use is directly related to how easy it is to get work done).
And both projects tout those aspects:)
So, indeed, I will flame you, karma whore:)
Consider yourself flamed.
Barclay family motto:
Aut agere aut mori.
(Either action or death.)
Re:I think we'd have more important problems
on
Rebooting The World?
·
· Score: 2
Hear hear!:)
I'm a pretty smart geek. I wouldn't call myself a hacker. I know what the word means, and I know that I'm not one;) However, you stick me down in front of anything technological(and give me unrestricted access) and within months I'll have it figured out, from the hardware components to the UI.
And I'm joining the army:) Sure, I'm going to be a tech guy, but first I'll have to go through Basic Training. And I hope to get a year or two of honest-to-goodness fieldwork in.
More than one person has sadly kept the "geek" stereotype in mind when dealing with me. They rarely came out of the encounted unscathed(most of the time they were verbally beaten; but for a few arses, whos thought they were strong, they got a sound thrashing of the physical persuation).
Anyways, my point? I'm not some kind of superman, but I can beat the crap out of 95% of the people I see. The 5% I can't are the people that are *both* bigger than me, and smart enough to realize that I'm not some skinny, pimpled freak that doesn't know how to use what body parts he's got.
Dave
Barclay family motto:
Aut agere aut mori.
(Either action or death.)
Slashdot Mirror
This shouldn't happen on Linux. At least not if things are installed properly. Let's look at an example. FooBar and YooHoo both require Wingbat; here's what /usr/lib might look like:
libwingbar.so.1.0.2 (file)
libwingbat.so.1 -> libfoobar.so.1.0.2 (link)
Both YooHoo and FooBar are linked against libwingbat.so.1. A new, *compatible* version(usually a bugfux release, or in some cases a version which adds another function, but doesn't touch existing functions) is released. It will then become libwingbat.so.1.0.3 or somsuch; libwingbat.so.1 will then by symbolically linked to the new library.
If a wholly new and incompatible libwingbat is released, then its so-version would be bumped; so you'd have:
libwingbat.so.1.0.3 (file)
libwingbat.so.1 -> libwingbat.so.1.0.3 (link)
libwingbat.so.2.0.0 (file)
libwingbat.so.2 -> libwingbat.so.2.0.0 (link)
Then, FooBar(which needs the new library), would be compiled against libwingbat.so.2. Now, library authors are *very* careful about stuff like this. If you've had problems, I would guess that they'd be package-management related.
Barclay family motto:
Aut agere aut mori.
(Either action or death.)
Oh, definetly. Shared libraries that are 100% application-specific should be kept in the application's space.
/usr/lib. Netscape is there, and a whole bunch of others :)
In fact, this is what happens on Linux too. Check the subdirectories in
Barclay family motto:
Aut agere aut mori.
(Either action or death.)
Well, no a bad idea totally. It'd help for DLL-hell type problems, but let's raise a few points:
1) Firstly, decent packaging makes DLL-hell much less likely. I use the experimental variant of Debian, and even then, there are rarely library dependancy problems. The problems that do arise are usually easily fixable, as opposed to most of the DLL-hell problems that Windows has(ie: two applications requiring incompatible versions of the same library).
2) Secondly, Linux(as a *nix variant) allows one to have multiple library versions installed at the same time, without trouble. That was one of the design considerations.
3) Security. The main reason for shared libraries isn't space-saving(as you imply), but rather security and stability. The FooBar application relies on library Wingbat. So does app YooHoo. Now, the Wingbat library has a security hole that was just found. Oops! Well, a patch is released, packages are made and sent out. You upgrade(or your computer does it automatically), and poof - all of a sudden, YooHoo, FooBar, and all the other apps that use the Wingbat library are more secure. Ditto with stability. The Wingbat library has a nasty bug which causes crashes. Okay, a fix is made, packages are installed, and now neither the YooHoo nor the FooBar apps are susceptible to that particular bug.
Anyways, I just wanted to say that the main reasons for shared libraries isn't really the space issue. Nor is it a performance thing. It's a quality thing.
Barclay family motto:
Aut agere aut mori.
(Either action or death.)
As someone pointed out, it's in Ottawa :)
... erm ... interesing experience. I seem to recall a fair bit of leather, whips, body paint and bikers.
:)
That aside, last time I was there, it was an
Just to warn all you geeks out there; don't show up in slacks
Barclay family motto:
Aut agere aut mori.
(Either action or death.)
Wow this is quite an accomplishment, considering the project activity statistics are at 0%, with 0 downloads for the month. Also, they have no released files and no CVS access. Where, exactly, did you get this code from? vaporware.com?
o ad.html . Then read some of the documents, which detail how to accomplish the tasks at hand.
Read to the bloody site, dolt. Including http://yopyxserver.sourceforge.net/download/downl
Troll.
Barclay family motto:
Aut agere aut mori.
(Either action or death.)
X was originally designed and run on computers with less than a meg of RAM. While it didn't have all the features a modern X implementation has, it had all the biggies.
:) Over a LAN, it's nice and snappy. Over cable or DSL, it's also rather fast, despite sometimes obvious latency(which is a factor of the network, not so much the X protocol).
;) Suuure, you *could* use something lighter. But then why not run Linux with a single shell in the console text-mode? 'cause we don't have to :)
:)
The idea that "X is bloated" is most definetly a vast misconception. What do you base this observation on? It definetly isn't quantitative analysis, elsewise you wouldn't say it's bloated.
So, you must be basing your opinion on subjective analysis. Now, KDE2 is pretty beefy. I bet at least 75% of people who use it, and this it's slow, will blame that on X. But if that were the case, how can I run, oh, say, Blackbox which is very fast? Since the X implementation is the same between the two, obviously that's not it. The same applies to GNOME; X isn't the bottleneck.
Now, running remote X apps is a bit of a bandwidth hog. On a slow modem.
Anyways, there are projects around which have entire X implentations that take up a few megs in storage, and less than a meg in RAM. XFree86-based implementations, to boot. Considerng this Yopy will have 64M of RAM, and 16M of flash, I don't think it's an issue
Just a misconception
Barclay family motto:
Aut agere aut mori.
(Either action or death.)
Last month or so, I telnetted into my Alcatel modem. (10.0.0.128, I think?) Anyways, I had read the PDF manual I had found.
:)" I say.
...
;)
So, poking around, I made a typo. No biggie, right?
I reset the modem. Uh-oh. No 'net. Damn, I hope I didn't break it. Look at the clock. It was 2:23AM. Okay, keep trying for a while.
Damn, still doesn't work. Call a fried. Nope, she can't connect either. UH-OH.
Call Sympatico(my provider). Having troubles? I ask. Yup, they are. Uh-oh. Well, could you tell me the *exact* time the trouble started? "Sorry sir, I don't know," the first-line techie responds. "Okay, mind if I speak to an engineer? Thanks
Anyways, to make a long story short, the problems started at around 2:19:23AM. Pretty much the exact time I made that typo. Coincidence? Possibly.
I probably shouldn't be posting this to Slashdot
(Oh, yeah, this is an Alcatel modem
Barclay family motto:
Aut agere aut mori.
(Either action or death.)
The only way you can forever avoid the issues that you say you fear Progeny will usher in, is for Linux to remain forever the province of the elitist hacker.
<BR>
Please read my comment again, and avoid twisting my words this time.<BR>
<BR>
I was not talking about excluding Progeny users from Debian support channels, I was warning Progeny users to be respectful of the Debian community, because they're using a non-Debian-standard distribution. And a commercial one, at that, which has support available from Progeny.
Dave
Barclay family motto:
Aut agere aut mori.
(Either action or death.)
a) A lot of Debian support people are very knowledgable. It doesn't matter what you're running, they could probably fix it. I've seen lots of Red Hat and other distribution-users asking for help in #debian because we have a reputation for competence.
b) It does matter where they got it from. Debian packages go through a rigorous testing procedure. As soon as they get the packages from a non-standard Debian source, the quality of the package is questionable.
c) No, of course we shouldn't say "don't ask me about it, blah, blah, blah." But I help the Debian user base. Why? Because it's what I do for the Debian community. That community puts together a distribution I like, and I repay them by helping to support their users. Now, if I'm supporting Red Hat users, or Slackware users, I'm not really paying back the Debian maintainers, am I? No, of course not. And when I'm helping a Red Hat user, there's a Debian user who isn't gettng help. Simple as that. Now, I don't exclude people based on what distribution they run. BUT, if they run a non-Debian distribution(like Progeny or Red Hat), and they're whiney and disrespectful to boot, you're damned right I won't help. It's not worth the effort.
Barclay family motto:
Aut agere aut mori.
(Either action or death.)
From a technical standpoint(which is what counts in tech support), no, you are not running Debian. Progeny would be, though... But that's not the point here :)
For people to help you, you need to have a certain attitude. If you go to the debian-user mailing list, or the irc.openprojects.net #debian channel running Red Hat, you better be nice. Not because you're "not cool," but because you're getting help from people who are trying to contribute to the Debian community, and you wouldn't be a part of that.
The original comment was intended as a warning to Progeny users; if you want support from the Debian community, you need to respect said community. Elsewise, Progeny and the Debian community could have a tense relationship.
Dave
Barclay family motto:
Aut agere aut mori.
(Either action or death.)
I guess you're right about the tension since the first non-hacker, although I only grudginly admit it ;)
:)
I think I see where you'er coming from too. I'm not too big on world domination; I do it because I like it.
Barclay family motto:
Aut agere aut mori.
(Either action or death.)
I agree that it's a bad idea to ask the Debian organization to support a commercial distribution, and Progeny isn't doing that.
:) I filed a rather long bug report. Heck, they wern't even bugs, they were just requests for behavioural modifications to the debconf part of XFree86. Very nice guy, and I know it'd be a bitch finding another XFree maintainer if he stopped(let's not bring up Mozilla). And I packaged Mozilla 0.8 myself(took me about two weeks, and finished just before Kitame released his), up to par with Debian Policy. It was absolute hell. While Mozilla doesn't play by regular rules(because of its multi-platform nature, I suppose), and XFree86 would, I realize how much work it'd be.
;)
Nope, they arn't. But that doesn't mean anything if all of a sudden large portions of Debian maintainers' and supporters' efforts go towards maintaining Progeny; regardless of whether Progeny asked for it or not.
Also, the Debian packagers that Progeny employs are some pretty key ones.
I realize that much. My original comment wasn't meant to belittle Progeny in the least, and if I could retroactively edit it I would. The purpose was to point out to those who read the Slashdot article and then download Progeny that Progeny is *not* Debian, and that they should maintain a certain attitude when getting support from typical Debian sources.
One of them mainains X, which is huge and pretty critical.
Yes, Branden Robinson. Pleasant fellow
Also, note that the Progeny CEO is the Debian founder, and is not one to "take advantage" of the volunteer developers, he is solidly behind the Debian way of doing things and actually created a lot of it. They also have me as chairman for a little while longer (although I have never worked there), and then I'll be on their advisory board, and I am the main author of the DFSG and again not someone to "take advantage" of volunteer developers.
I'll refer to my first reply on your first comment. Even though Progeny may do everything right, Debian volounteers might still feel taken advantage of.
Thanks
No, no, thank you
Barclay family motto:
Aut agere aut mori.
(Either action or death.)
Agreed. And it's nice that a former DPL points that out :)
:) I'm not one for predicting doomsday, so I'll try and relax, and watch how it pans out :)
:) I don't mean to belittle any of you, I'd just like to try to head off what could be a nasty community fight. If I come off differently, I apologize profusely.
Perhaps I should have been more specific. Instead of "Progeny taking advantage of the Debian community", perhaps I should have said "the Debian community being taken advantage of".
But, damnit, I've seen it start to happen already. I'd be a maintainer now if I wasn't joining the army. But I am, so I passed. However, I still put a good 5-10 hours a week into helping Debian users, so I feel that I'm allowed to voice my opinion. I see people posting to debian-user and people coming into #debian asking for help. And not politely. In fact, just today, someone repeatedly pasted an error message at me at ten-minute intervals, like I was a bot. Had they been a Progeny user, and the problem had been Progeny-specific, I would have been more than irritated; I would have been mad.
That's why I'm worried. I mean, Progeny can do everything right, and they can still end up alienating the vast majority of the Debian community. They can't control who their users are, and they can't control how they act.
Ah well... We'll see
P.S.: To the Progeny developers, especially Branden who is doing great(visible) work: you're doing a good job
Barclay family motto:
Aut agere aut mori.
(Either action or death.)
"at least not yet" being the key phrase here.
:) But if I end up catering to arrogant, disrespectful, inconsiderate Progeny users, I will stop. How long will the people that make Debian what it is be able to put up with it, while still holding Progeny in a good light?
They will eventually. And I actually won't mind for the most part. Just part of the community
I dunno, and I hope we don't find out.
Barclay family motto:
Aut agere aut mori.
(Either action or death.)
Well, if Progeny is not Debian, why does it have Debian in its name?
If you expect that people will be blamed for asking support for Progeny in the Debian lists, let's open them their eyes now and tell them that what they are buying is not what they might think it is?
Allright, I thought I made it clear, but here it is again:
Progeny Debian Linux is based on Debian Linux, a distribution put together by volounteers worldwide. Progeny Linux is nearly completely compatible with the normal, non-commercial Debian distribution. However, Progeny is a commercial entity. Debian is not, it's a community effort. On the technical side of things, there's not a whole lot of difference between the two.
But let's look at Mandrake and Red Hat. The first few Mandrake releases were basically Red Hat clones with KDE added on. Yet the two were considered very different, because both companies had very different goals and very different target audiences.
My big worry isn't that Progeny is trying to make a buck based on Debian the distribution. My worry is that they'll take advantage of Debian the community. Perhaps by shirking on tech support and reffering people to regular Debian support channels, perhaps by not contributing back to Debian proper's package base. This situation is fraught with difficulty, and I think that the Progeny people should step very lightly. They risk to alienate the Debian community, which would be a bad thing for Debian the community, Debian the distribution, and Progeny the company.
Barclay family motto:
Aut agere aut mori.
(Either action or death.)
but, i have a sneaking feeling that, if you came into #debian, or the mailing lists and asked politely for help. that you would still get flamed for using somthing "watered down", and not as "hardcore" as debian.
... but there are hundreds doing unpaid work, so it's just a drop in the bucket.
:)
Well, I won't totally disagree with you. I am one of those Debian "helpers". I subscribe to debian-user and reply where I can, and I'm often in irc.openprojects.net's #debian helping people out(my nick is ElectricElf).
Anyways, I do, on occasion, turn some of the "needier" Progeny/Storm/OtherVariant users away. They're using a commercial distribution, so why don't they pay for their tech support? So far, Progeny hasn't really done a whole lot for the Debian community. They have some more up-to-date packages, but they arn't yet available in the regular Debian archives. They do employ a couple of packagers
That being said, by and large, I see people helping people. It isn't often that someone who is polite and considerate gets shot out of the water for using a Debian variant.
On the other hand, Progeny is making money off my giving tech support. I think I'm allowed to say, "No, either give me a cut or I won't help your users." Sure, it sounds cold, and I have very rarely thought that, but it's really quite true. A company selling something should not rely on volounteers to do part of their job for them. Those volounteers will eventually get pissed and angry, for being taken advantage of.
So you see, it's actually quite complex
Barclay family motto:
Aut agere aut mori.
(Either action or death.)
I'd like to make something clear here;
:) Just like Mandrake is not Red Hat. Just like Slackware is not the Linux From Scratch HOWTO/distribution. Please keep that in mind. If you join Debian mailing lists, demanding support for Progeny, you won't be pleased with the results. If you go on Debian IRC channels and demand support for Progeny, you'll get flamed.
Progeny is not Debian.
Okay?
If you have a good attitude though, you'll be welcomed. Be nice, be polite. But Progeny is not Debian, so don't expect help from Debian users. Progeny is a variant, and hence rather Debian-like. I'd even say it's compatible on a few levels. But it's not Debian.
Barclay family motto:
Aut agere aut mori.
(Either action or death.)
I'm sorry that this is offtopic,
But how do you call this news? A picture, sent in anonymously, claiming to be the successor to the Palm V? I didn't even have to open up an image editor to start thinking that this thing was a fake. Take a look closely around the "m505" marker. Sort of looks odd, doesn't it? Like the edges of another image were blended into the image of the palm. Look at the left bottom edge of the screen, and the right bottom edge. The right edge is further away from the silkscreen than the left edge; *way* more than can be explained by perspective.
Anyways, this photo may or may not be doctored, it may or may not be real. But you can't call this news; an unsubstantiated image on the web, with nothing to back it up, sent in ANONYMOUSLY is not, I repeat, not news.
Okay, I've opened up the image in the Gimp. Yeah, it's probably a fake. I could be wrong, though. Anyways, the "m505" is definetly plastered on top of it, and it looks like the text was originally straight, then had a transform applied to it in order to make it looks slanted. There were also some more technical things that indicate falseness. Now, this could be an image generated by the 3com engineers; so it could be very real. BUT COME ON!
Before you start bitching at Malda about what news is, go and watch a real news program on television. One that reports on wars, and politics. Then look up the definition in a dictionary. Then, for Christ's sake, apply some common sense. Chances are, this picture is a fraud. Arse. Have a nice day.
Dave
Barclay family motto:
Aut agere aut mori.
(Either action or death.)
Oh, here's a good analogy, too:
:)
You're a telepath. You can read minds. You live in a society where nobody else can read minds...
In this analogy, it's like this woman is suggesting you get a brain operation to remove your telepathy, so that other people will accept you. You've got good, close friends(analogous to the community around open source/Free Software), but in order to be accepted by a larger audience, you have to cut out part of yourself.
Anyways, I think I'm done...
Barclay family motto:
Aut agere aut mori.
(Either action or death.)
Incidentally, I wouldn't really mind too much if there was one "standard" desktop under Linux... So long as they kept some compatiblity. For instance, if I could run apps from this theoretical toolkit/desktop environment under GNOME or KDE or whatever else, I'd be happy.
I'm just worried about how this author puts everything; it's like she's been using Linux all these years, but might as well have been using Windows.
Barclay family motto:
Aut agere aut mori.
(Either action or death.)
From here on in, when I refer to "Linux", I refer to pretty much any GNU/Linux distribution.
... well, screw it as far as I'm concerned. It's not worth it.
Linux means a lot of things. It means choice, it means stability, it means open source and Free Software.
This person wants to make Linux standard across the board. "One window manager. One shell. One 'look and feel'." Well, no offense or anything, but if that comes about, then it isn't Linux any more, is it?
Sure, it'll use the Linux kernel. And it'll probably run off Free Software. But "Linux" will no longer mean what we have made it mean, as a community. I'm not saying this is a horrible, bad things to do. But Linux has become popular because of what WE think it should be. It's popular because it's configurable. It's popular because it's powerful. It's popular because it's stable. And it's especially popular because we can make it pretty.
So, if we loose all those things, what's left? Honestly? If that all comes about, then putting aside philisophical debates, why would you run Linux? What'd be the point? Aside from it being Free Software, aside from it being open source, WHY? You'd be running a free, somewhat more stable version Windows or MacOS.
I don't get it. I like my Linux. It's powerful, it's configurable, it's pretty, and it's stable. It has gotten as far as it has because of those attributes. If it has to loose them to go further
Dave
Barclay family motto:
Aut agere aut mori.
(Either action or death.)
Because then you are interfering with public/private property. Just because a plane flies over your house doesn't give you the right to shoot it down for tresspassing. Think about it.
A) That's a bad example, because we're not talking about actively, purposefully causing permanent damage to property, nor are we talking about killing people.
B) Your private lot does not extend upwards an infinite distance. At a certain altitude(can't remember the figure, but it's fairly low), you no longer own the airspace.
If someone did land a plane on your property, just for the heck of it(it wasn't an emergency, and they had a licensed airfield nearby), you could do whatever you wanted to it. If you didn't have a tractor to haul it away, you could cut it up into little pieces and move it off your property.
There are limits, of course(in this case, the owner of the aircraft has to have refused to remove it themselves, for instance), but you get the idea.
Personally, I wouldn't use one of these directly myself. However, if there was a restaurant in the area which had a "no cell phone" policy, and enforced it with one of these devices, I'd frequent it regularily.
Dave
Barclay family motto:
Aut agere aut mori.
(Either action or death.)
We really, really need something better than X and we need it now.
:) You've got a text editor, you've got a compiler, and you've got source code. Start coding.
Okay
No? Why not? Listen, replacing X isn't going to be easy. And unless you're going to do it, shut up and stop whining. Instead, THANK the people who have *given* you a Free implementation of the X Windowing System. Got it? Good.
Barclay family motto:
Aut agere aut mori.
(Either action or death.)
Hahahaha :) Don't flame you over that?
:)
:)
No offense or anything, but that's just drivel.
KDE makes great pains to be easy to program for.
GNOME has a small learning curve for a number of programmers, as it's C-based.
GNOME has the lowest footprint and provides the most functionality.
KDE is easiest to learn(but not to use; the longer something takes to learn, the more complex it is. Generally, the more complex an app is, the easier it is to get work done. Ease of use is directly related to how easy it is to get work done).
And both projects tout those aspects
So, indeed, I will flame you, karma whore
Consider yourself flamed.
Barclay family motto:
Aut agere aut mori.
(Either action or death.)
Hear hear! :)
;) However, you stick me down in front of anything technological(and give me unrestricted access) and within months I'll have it figured out, from the hardware components to the UI.
:) Sure, I'm going to be a tech guy, but first I'll have to go through Basic Training. And I hope to get a year or two of honest-to-goodness fieldwork in.
I'm a pretty smart geek. I wouldn't call myself a hacker. I know what the word means, and I know that I'm not one
And I'm joining the army
More than one person has sadly kept the "geek" stereotype in mind when dealing with me. They rarely came out of the encounted unscathed(most of the time they were verbally beaten; but for a few arses, whos thought they were strong, they got a sound thrashing of the physical persuation).
Anyways, my point? I'm not some kind of superman, but I can beat the crap out of 95% of the people I see. The 5% I can't are the people that are *both* bigger than me, and smart enough to realize that I'm not some skinny, pimpled freak that doesn't know how to use what body parts he's got.
Dave
Barclay family motto:
Aut agere aut mori.
(Either action or death.)