Could you elaborate where's the limit for Russian expansion (SU? Russian Empire? The Earh? Solar system?)
I was taught in school about plans about state which borders are 3 oceans Atlantic, Indian and Pacific. It should be whole eurasia.
And also about retaliation - what was it against?
About retaliation. Maybe i didn't write it clear enough.
Goal - make war with you neighbour and your hands stay clear.
1. Hire some gunman who will shoot your neighbours over border or will make rides to neigbour side. Your government of course denies any connection. Accuse your neighbour about rising tensions. Bring your forces near border for "peacekeeping". Continue the process until your opponent chooses to return fire. If your opponent doesn't return fire in given timeframe - put your hired gunmen into your neighbour uniform and let them attack you. Acceptable casualities.
2. Bring in loyal journalists, show corpses, accuse your neighbour everywhere.
3. Retaliate with force.
4. Mission accomplished.
This is not fantasy scenario, both nazi germany and soviet union have used it.
No. I'm not special. But we must explain to western people who have had no close dealings with russians who the russians really are so they can make objective decisions what is happening.
Most people in Europe will have sad stories to tell about the generations past. I could tell you stories just as sad about my (extended) family. Besides, let's not forget who bore the brunt of the brutality of the Soviet (and mostly Stalinist) regime -- the Russians themselves. Most Russians could tell you stories even sadder.
But you are using typical russian last resort defence - Russians have suffered more than anybody else. So what? Your people - russians murdered, raped and enslaved. Germans also suffered because on nazis. At least they feel a bit ashamed because of what nazis did. Nazi symbolics are forbidden in germany. You russians do not feel any shame what you have done! You are even proud about it! Communist symbolics are used everywhere. What the hell, even nazi symbolics are used openly in Moscow. You can buy russian copy of Mein Kampf on Red Square! You even took back the old soviet union state hymn. Read the first part of it! There is clearly written who are responsible. Oh no we poor russians suffered so bad! Then why you want soviet union back? Why you still behave like soviet union did? Exactly how many foreigners are killed in Moscow by neonazis yearly? Do you know? Hundreds! And police doesn't care at all. About year ago the a law was made in Moscow so only ethnic russians can sell goods on free market. If this is not discrimination by nationality then what it is? You accuse all other countries about fascism and still you are most fascist country at least in europe.
The goverment rating is high, the media is nothing but a propaganda machine and most Russians already believe that they're living in a glorious empire.
But the empire is not as big and powerful as it was during soviet times. Many russian politics are openly talking about restoring soviet union. And Russians tend to think that "to respect" is the same as "to fear". Why so, i dont understand.
I'd like to hear someone demanding retaliation. Russian, Ossetian or Georgian for the matter.
Russiand attack to Georgia itself was act of retaliation - at least russian government says so.
How exactly can you provoke Georgia given that South Ossetia is a tiny patch of land with just a handful of people surrounded by Georgia and Caucasus Mountains is beyond my comprehension.
Russian troops have been there about 10-15 years. They have bases, even South Ossetian local governemt is formed of KGB officers. How to provoke other country? Hire some gunman ( or put your own troop in foreign uniforms and let them start firefight ) bring in your loyal press and show some corpses. Retaliate. Mission accomplished. Not even new trick. Both soviet union and nazi germany have done this before. Why? To start restoring russian empire. To get popularity among simple russians who want once again be part of glorious empire.
WMD are a way to commit a suicide, not a way to conquer anyone. Military-wise Russia is very weak
You seems to confuse nazism and nationalism
The ideas about sacred mission etc are just wild. Russians are quite nationalistic, and saving someone else is left as an excersize for suckers who believe in lofty nonsense. It seems that your exposure to anything Russian is limited, to say the least.
If the beginning (the occupation of Czechoslovakia) is not important, than the analogy fails.
Try to understand, that in russian terms: nazism=fascism. Nationalism towards russians = fascism. Nationalism and shovinism from russians is patriotism. And how about your exposure to russians? I speak russian, I have been in Moscow and St Petersburg. I have dealt with russians about 30 years. Of course it's limited exposure, they were conquerers. I just dont have open mind enough to understand their greatness! And are you 100% sure russia didn't provoke georgia? And russian sources do not coun. Russian journalism is joke, because this story is how journalism is managed in russia.
First of all, German military capacity of that time was outstanding - they were far stronger than anyone else. Russian military capacity is nowhere near, say, British military capacity right now, and govt refuses to deal with that, so it'll stay low.
Don't forget weapons of mass destruction.
Second, Russian politicians are nationalist, not fascist.
If russian says fascist he thinks nazi. It's quite correct to say russia is fascist country, beacuse this way russians understands the point of it. For western people it is a bit confusing. If you dealing with russians then fascism=nazism. Russia is accusing their neighbours of fascism all the time. Accuse your enemies in sins you commit...
There's no ideology of supremacy.
Actually there is. Russians like to think they are on sacred mission of saving somebody from something. Like saving world from Genghis Khan, turks, Napoleon, imperialism, nazis, USA... And all who oppose the plan are stupid, misguided and their enemies. So the destruction of soviet union was great tragedy for them and their mission and great victory for their enemies. So they want revenge. They think that that revenge is justified by their sacred right. Supremacy or not, it yours to decide. They were on wave of saving world of nazism, now they are on mission saving their fellow russians everywhere. But all the missions are just excuses of doing what they have done, are doing and will do. Killing and enslaving millions is not a problem. Its business as normal for them.
Third, calling conflict in Ossetia a carbon copy of German occupation of Czechoslovakia is an insult to Czech.
Important is not the beginning, but the end. Czech were much harder to provoke than georgians.
Seriosuly - compare what you are saying to what the US is doing. invading countries, guantanamo bay, anti-terrorism laws. etc. The US is not different, russia is simply reacting in order to stay in the game and not be controlled by the US.
Can you name journalists and webmasters who have been shot by US police? Thank you!
Yes. I'm estonian. Let me to tell you a story. When i was a kid, I asked from my granny - where is my grandpa. My granny told me, that my grandpa died in a prison in Siberia. He was simple fisherman, who gave food to his relative who was seeked by russian police. Then I asked my father, where is my other grandpa. My other grandpa was forced to Red Army and was killed there. My mother in law was sent to Siberia by russians, when she was about 6, with her old grandma, because her mother wasn't cooperative enough. And this is the story of average estonian family. Of course i'm brainwashed by media!
It's the same story actually. For example if you are leader of state and want to go to war agains some other country, you need badly that your people support your plans. You need your journalists write excactly what you want. A corpse is quite powerful message to send to other journalists. There is old soviet time joke:
November 7, the anniversary of the October Revolution. The military parade at the Red Square in Moscow. Napoleon and Murat are among the invited VIPs: ambassadors, chairmen of the communist parties and so on. Napoleon reads "Pravda" newspaper and Murat observes the parade in excitement.
Murat: "Your Excellence, look at these brave soldiers! If we had a battallion of such soldiers, we could have won the battle of Waterloo!" Napoleon keeps reading Pravda. The Kantermirov tank division enters the Red Square.
Murat: "Your Excellence, look at these tanks! If we had one of them, we could have won the battle of Waterloo!" Napoleon keeps reading Pravda. The mobile tactical missiles slowly enter the scene.
Murat: "Your Excellence, look at these missiles! If we had just one of them, we could have won the battle of Waterloo!"
Napoleon raises his eyes, watches Murat sadly and finally utters: "Mon cher, if we had a newspaper like Pravda, the world would have never known that we had lost at Waterloo..."
Pravda (Russian: , "The Truth") was a leading newspaper of the Soviet Union and an official organ of the Central Committee of the Communist Party.
Webster definition describes exactly what is happening in Russia.
Definition 1:"often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government" - It has been the case in russia all the times during at least past 150 year.
"headed by a dictatorial leader" - Do you think Putin is honest good democratically elected leader? NO. There can't be free elections when there is no free mass media or journalism. Putin is former KGB officer. KGB officers were not misleaded average guys. They knew perfectly where they were working and what they were doing. I have lived in the country ruled by KGB, I know.
"severe economic" - russian government is taking over major russian companies. For example Yukos. Ff the business owners doesn't agree the they are thrown to prison (Mihail Hodorkovski case)
"and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition" - for example http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_journalists_killed_in_Russia
Godwin or not, but this is truth. Of course i should have written "Russian politics and rethorics is identical to germany in 1930" to avoid the issue. But that what happening in russia and if world will react like last time then we are heading to WWW III.
There is no wave anti-Russian sentiment. Truth is that Russia is most fascist country on earth right now. Attacking his neighbours, killing nonrussians in their major citys and so on. Russian politics and rethorics is identical to nazi germany in 1930. Georgia and South Ossetia conflict is exactly like German occupation of Czechoslovakia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_occupation_of_Czechoslovakia. Remember what happend last time!
You didn't get the point at all. I bet many pro-russian commentars are originated from russia and written by people who are connected to russian government and KGB. Other russians are misguided because russian media is full of lies. Totally. I have seen it. Russian TV says exactly what their government want them to say. Bad english is first sign how to you can pinpoint russian - russians are very bad in foreign languages.
By russian standards is justified to kill their own people for the "greater good". They doesn't care about killing millions, why they should care about killing 10 their own troops. They have done it before and they will do it again. There is no risk for russian government in doing so, because most russians will never heard about it or doesn't believe it anyway. Do not underestimate russian propaganda machine. There are no free journalism in russia. All the Georgian incident is clearly preplanned and started months ago. Even cyberattacks started days before 08.08.08. The new tactics from russia is attacking their enemies from internet. Not only hacking servers or doing DDos attacks. All internet boards a full pro-russian comments in bad english or in some other language - the new information weapon.
Slashdot Mirror
I was taught in school about plans about state which borders are 3 oceans Atlantic, Indian and Pacific. It should be whole eurasia.
About retaliation. Maybe i didn't write it clear enough.
Goal - make war with you neighbour and your hands stay clear.
1. Hire some gunman who will shoot your neighbours over border or will make rides to neigbour side. Your government of course denies any connection. Accuse your neighbour about rising tensions. Bring your forces near border for "peacekeeping". Continue the process until your opponent chooses to return fire. If your opponent doesn't return fire in given timeframe - put your hired gunmen into your neighbour uniform and let them attack you. Acceptable casualities.
2. Bring in loyal journalists, show corpses, accuse your neighbour everywhere.
3. Retaliate with force.
4. Mission accomplished.
This is not fantasy scenario, both nazi germany and soviet union have used it.
No. I'm not special. But we must explain to western people who have had no close dealings with russians who the russians really are so they can make objective decisions what is happening.
But the empire is not as big and powerful as it was during soviet times. Many russian politics are openly talking about restoring soviet union. And Russians tend to think that "to respect" is the same as "to fear". Why so, i dont understand.
Russiand attack to Georgia itself was act of retaliation - at least russian government says so.
Russian troops have been there about 10-15 years. They have bases, even South Ossetian local governemt is formed of KGB officers. How to provoke other country? Hire some gunman ( or put your own troop in foreign uniforms and let them start firefight ) bring in your loyal press and show some corpses. Retaliate. Mission accomplished. Not even new trick. Both soviet union and nazi germany have done this before. Why? To start restoring russian empire. To get popularity among simple russians who want once again be part of glorious empire.
Try to understand, that in russian terms: nazism=fascism. Nationalism towards russians = fascism. Nationalism and shovinism from russians is patriotism. And how about your exposure to russians? I speak russian, I have been in Moscow and St Petersburg. I have dealt with russians about 30 years. Of course it's limited exposure, they were conquerers. I just dont have open mind enough to understand their greatness! And are you 100% sure russia didn't provoke georgia? And russian sources do not coun. Russian journalism is joke, because this story is how journalism is managed in russia.
Don't forget weapons of mass destruction.
If russian says fascist he thinks nazi. It's quite correct to say russia is fascist country, beacuse this way russians understands the point of it. For western people it is a bit confusing. If you dealing with russians then fascism=nazism. Russia is accusing their neighbours of fascism all the time. Accuse your enemies in sins you commit...
Actually there is. Russians like to think they are on sacred mission of saving somebody from something. Like saving world from Genghis Khan, turks, Napoleon, imperialism, nazis, USA... And all who oppose the plan are stupid, misguided and their enemies. So the destruction of soviet union was great tragedy for them and their mission and great victory for their enemies. So they want revenge. They think that that revenge is justified by their sacred right. Supremacy or not, it yours to decide. They were on wave of saving world of nazism, now they are on mission saving their fellow russians everywhere. But all the missions are just excuses of doing what they have done, are doing and will do. Killing and enslaving millions is not a problem. Its business as normal for them.
Important is not the beginning, but the end. Czech were much harder to provoke than georgians.
Can you name journalists and webmasters who have been shot by US police? Thank you!
Yes. I'm estonian. Let me to tell you a story. When i was a kid, I asked from my granny - where is my grandpa. My granny told me, that my grandpa died in a prison in Siberia. He was simple fisherman, who gave food to his relative who was seeked by russian police. Then I asked my father, where is my other grandpa. My other grandpa was forced to Red Army and was killed there. My mother in law was sent to Siberia by russians, when she was about 6, with her old grandma, because her mother wasn't cooperative enough. And this is the story of average estonian family. Of course i'm brainwashed by media!
It's the same story actually. For example if you are leader of state and want to go to war agains some other country, you need badly that your people support your plans. You need your journalists write excactly what you want. A corpse is quite powerful message to send to other journalists. There is old soviet time joke:
November 7, the anniversary of the October Revolution. The military parade at the Red Square in Moscow. Napoleon and Murat are among the invited VIPs: ambassadors, chairmen of the communist parties and so on. Napoleon reads "Pravda" newspaper and Murat observes the parade in excitement.
Murat: "Your Excellence, look at these brave soldiers! If we had a battallion of such soldiers, we could have won the battle of Waterloo!" Napoleon keeps reading Pravda. The Kantermirov tank division enters the Red Square.
Murat: "Your Excellence, look at these tanks! If we had one of them, we could have won the battle of Waterloo!" Napoleon keeps reading Pravda. The mobile tactical missiles slowly enter the scene.
Murat: "Your Excellence, look at these missiles! If we had just one of them, we could have won the battle of Waterloo!"
Napoleon raises his eyes, watches Murat sadly and finally utters: "Mon cher, if we had a newspaper like Pravda, the world would have never known that we had lost at Waterloo..."
Pravda (Russian: , "The Truth") was a leading newspaper of the Soviet Union and an official organ of the Central Committee of the Communist Party.
Webster definition describes exactly what is happening in Russia. Definition 1:"often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government" - It has been the case in russia all the times during at least past 150 year. "headed by a dictatorial leader" - Do you think Putin is honest good democratically elected leader? NO. There can't be free elections when there is no free mass media or journalism. Putin is former KGB officer. KGB officers were not misleaded average guys. They knew perfectly where they were working and what they were doing. I have lived in the country ruled by KGB, I know. "severe economic" - russian government is taking over major russian companies. For example Yukos. Ff the business owners doesn't agree the they are thrown to prison (Mihail Hodorkovski case) "and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition" - for example http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_journalists_killed_in_Russia
Godwin or not, but this is truth. Of course i should have written "Russian politics and rethorics is identical to germany in 1930" to avoid the issue. But that what happening in russia and if world will react like last time then we are heading to WWW III.
There is no wave anti-Russian sentiment. Truth is that Russia is most fascist country on earth right now. Attacking his neighbours, killing nonrussians in their major citys and so on. Russian politics and rethorics is identical to nazi germany in 1930. Georgia and South Ossetia conflict is exactly like German occupation of Czechoslovakia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_occupation_of_Czechoslovakia. Remember what happend last time!
You didn't get the point at all. I bet many pro-russian commentars are originated from russia and written by people who are connected to russian government and KGB. Other russians are misguided because russian media is full of lies. Totally. I have seen it. Russian TV says exactly what their government want them to say. Bad english is first sign how to you can pinpoint russian - russians are very bad in foreign languages.
By russian standards is justified to kill their own people for the "greater good". They doesn't care about killing millions, why they should care about killing 10 their own troops. They have done it before and they will do it again. There is no risk for russian government in doing so, because most russians will never heard about it or doesn't believe it anyway. Do not underestimate russian propaganda machine. There are no free journalism in russia. All the Georgian incident is clearly preplanned and started months ago. Even cyberattacks started days before 08.08.08. The new tactics from russia is attacking their enemies from internet. Not only hacking servers or doing DDos attacks. All internet boards a full pro-russian comments in bad english or in some other language - the new information weapon.
I think mikk used too harsh words about the soviet people we have here. But Soviet Union used the same tactics here, which China is using in Tibet.