Chicago has been violating the civil rights of it's residents for years in ways that are far more obnoxious than recording public spaces. What makes you think the good people of the windy city are going to grow a backbone at this point?
It's folly to think that you have to live in a bad area to become a victim of violent crime. My state has granted me the right to carry a concealed firearm. I choose to exercise that right whenever it is legal to do so, hence my interest in different handgun calibers and the merits/lack thereof of each of them.
If a company has more fees to pay, whether taxes or other, it comes out of profits, with only a fraction of it represented in the product's sale price.
Even if I agreed with you, this is still a tax on individuals. Where do you think profits go? They go to shareholders who pay income tax on them.
I've tried revolvers but even on the smaller ones the cylinder is just too wide for my tastes
I'd second that. I bought my snubnose because I had a lot of negative experiences with pocket automatics. I rarely carry the thing though. It's funny but it's more comfortable for me to carry a government-model sized 1911 than a snubnose revolver.
It has a lot of sharp corners that can snag
??? Mine doesn't have any sharp corners. I've got thousands of draws with it and it's never snagged on anything. Which model 1911 do you have?
but for anything outside of range work to me single action guns are a technology whose time has come and gone
I find it easier to only have to learn one trigger pull. To each their own though:)
'd far rather carry a nice double action than worry about carrying cocked and locked or fumbling with a hammer if I need the gun.
Why would you worry about carrying cocked and locked? The original 1911 had two different safety systems -- the sear/thumb safety interface and the half cock notch. The modern designs will usually add a firing pin safety as well. I'd agree with you on messing around with the hammer though. I know a few people that lower the hammers on their chambered 1911 but I personally regard that as a very bad and dangerous move. Bad because it leaves you with a gun you can't shoot in an emergency. Dangerous because it's just begging for a negligent discharge.
the internal extractor is usually picky and has to be precisely tuned for each gun - which is why most 1911-redesigns went to an external extractor
YMMV but I've had worse experiences with the redesigns with external extractors. Most of the issues that I've seen with extractors on 1911s wind up being the fault of the magazine, not the extractor. I ran into it with the first one I bought -- the stock magazine had a nasty habit of jamming on the last round, particularly when feeding hollowpoints. I bought 8 round magazines from Wilson Combat and haven't had any hiccups since.
The trigger moving straight back instead of pivoting on a hinge pin also feels off to me.
The ones that pivot feel strange to me. I guess it's all what you are used to:)
Don't get me wrong the fact that the design has been used for as long as it has is a testament to it's maker, but the design is almost 100 years old now and it's starting to get just a bit long in the tooth.
I'm not a Browning groupie. I love many aspects of the 1911 (the grip angle, the single action operation, the thin profile, etc.) but there are also a lot of things that could stand to be improved with the original design. To pick one, it's a mystery to me why the extended grip safety (to prevent hammer bite and enable a higher grip on the gun) wasn't a feature of the original design. That's the first thing I notice whenever I pick up a mil-spec 1911. The original sights also left a lot to be desired.
If a pistol is your primary weapon, caliber sizes and small differences in performance might be of value.
As a civilian it is your primary weapon. You can't exactly take the AR-15 or 12 gauge with you to the grocery store. It probably qualifies as the primary weapon for most law enforcement officers too. They have access to shotguns and other weapons but the pistol is the one that's always on hand and ready to bring into action when needed.
The point is valid for soldiers though. The Marines don't even issue the M9 any longer to officers under the rank of full bird colonel. They issue the M4 carbine instead.
With good JHP ammo, 9 is plenty on an unarmored target.
I'll wager that most of the police who died because their 9mm rounds failed the stop the aggressor were using "good JHP ammo" (as if you'd use anything else for self-defense work). Seriously, how do you explain away the numerous stories of the 9mm failing to stop aggressors and the fact that large segments of the law enforcement community have abandoned it?
Though, I honestly just don't believe the 1911 can be beat on aesthetics... like a Colt 1851 Navy, the Winchester Repeater and the M1 Garand, they're just sort of iconic of America.
Yeah, that's kind of how I wound up buying one. Hard to find a more American handgun than the 1911. It helps that the first time I ever fired one I did really well with it. Couldn't hit the broad side of a barn with the revolvers that I played with that day but the 1911 almost seems to aim itself, at least for me.
Funny that you mentioned the Garand. I'm still in the process of saving up the money to get one from the CMP. Personally I'd rather have an M1 Garand than a AR or AK. More powerful cartridge, longer range, semi-auto operation and no legal hassles to contend with, as my state has it's own version of the now expired Federal assault weapons ban.
Wearing a heavy coat in the summer just so I can conceal a 1911 is the point when carrying is more hindrance than it's worth
I can conceal my 1911 under an oversized t-shirt (i.e: buy an XL instead of an L) with the tail out. Get yourself an inside the waistband holster. You'd be surprised how easy it is to conceal a large framed pistol. The 1911 has another advantage going for it too -- the single stack magazine gives it a thinner profile than most modern handguns of a similar size.
As such when I carry I carry a little Kel-tec.380. Fire's the same projectile as the 9mm Luger (less power charge behind it though, but still decent energy delivery) but it fits nicely in my front pocket with no wardrobe adjustments.
The problem with pocket guns is that they aren't very fun to shoot and most people won't practice with them enough to become proficient. Too little mass to absorb the recoil. They do have their place though. I have a snubnose.38 for the rare occasion where I don't want to carry the 1911. Load it with +Ps and you've got yourself a weapon with more power than the.380 and one that can't jam.
The truth is 9mm is every bit as capable across a broad range of handgun scenarios that LE are likely to face as any other reasonable semi-auto cartridge (.40,.45,.357Sig)
Then why are there so many more stories of the 9mm failing to stop determined aggressors than there are of other calibers? The.40 and.357SIG are newer calibers so you can explain them away as not having been around long enough to accumulate such stories, but the.45 and.357 magnum have been around for a long time. Both of them have better reputations than the 9mm does.
That's why most of the world's militaries, including the US, and all NATO and UN types, have standardized on 9mm
Except that the US forces who are most likely to need to use their handguns don't use the 9mm. They use the.45. Marine Force Recon, Delta Force and the Navy Seals all use.45s. So does the FBI Hostage Rescue Team and LA SWAT team. If the 9mm is so great then why aren't these pros using it?
Operator skill and unpredictable situational factors will make far more difference than any you can find between the calibers in any case
No argument there. Most of the knowledgeable types that I've talked to would advise you to pick the most powerful caliber that you can shoot accurately and stop worrying about it. A hit with a.22LR is better than a miss with a.50 BMG. I can shoot the.45 as accurately as the 9mm and my state limits me to 10 round magazines anyway so I don't see any compelling reason to carry the 9mm.
It's not an 'appeal to authority'. It's an appeal to professional studies of the issue at hand. The FBI spent millions of dollars investigating the issue of stopping power after the Miami shootout. After all of their research they opted not to select the 9mm as a carry weapon for their personnel. What does that suggest to you?
If that's your metric then the.22LR is the best self-defense round.
Where it hits is more important than how big it is
Don't dismiss the size of the hole. The only surefire way to stop a determined aggressor is to destroy the central nervous system or to cause enough blood loss that they can't continue attacking you. A larger wound channel is going to accelerate the rate of blood loss and stop them faster than a smaller one.
Choose the most powerful round that you can shoot accurately. Most people can manage to do so with something more powerful than the 9mm.
It's hard to come across good data for stopping power because every shooting scenario is obviously different. What is known is that there have been a lot more failures of the 9mm to stop an aggressor than there have been of the.45,.40 or.357. Here in NYS the State Troopers abandoned the 9mm in favor of the.45 GAP (Glock's knock off of the.45 ACP) after a Trooper was killed by some scumbag whom he had repeatedly shot but whom wasn't stopped.
Don't get me wrong -- you can find a failure to stop for every caliber on the market. One of the ones that sticks out in my mind involved a South Carolina State Trooper. He landed five center of mass hits on his aggressor with a.357 magnum and was then killed by a.22 derringer of all things. His attacker lived. Just plain rotten luck. No caliber is a sure thing -- but the 9mm stands out as having more failures to stop than most.
Most knowledgeable people will tell you to carry the most powerful caliber that you can shoot accurately and have a decent follow-up time with. The.45 does you no good if it takes you five seconds to reacquire the sights after the first shot. Most shooters are capable of handling something bigger/more powerful than the 9mm though. The.40 S&W seems to be the current favorite among law enforcement agencies.
Easier said than done when the adrenaline is pumping and your fight or flight response kicks in. The instructor who taught the CCW classes that I've taken said that if your regular group size is 2" across on the range it will measure 10" or more when the chips are down and you are fighting for your life.
There's a reason why even the professionals are trained to shoot CoM first.
In most places, the would-be victim would then be up on a manslaughter charge, which I think is not the analogy you were shooting for.
What 'most places' are those? In most American jurisdictions you are well within your rights to resist a mugging attempt with whatever force is reasonably required to terminate the encounter in your favor.
Yeah I had that same thought. The Chinese have as much standing to complain about IP violations as the United States has to lecture on fiscal responsibility.
Yeah, the Air Marshals use the.357 SIG, as does the Secret Service. The Coast Guard adopted it as well. I believe the FBI is still using the.40 S&W but I could be mistaken.
The 9mm is a joke. It's even worse for the military because they aren't allowed to use expanding ammunition. Buddy of mine who deployed in Iraq tells a story of an insurgent whom wasn't stopped in spite of the fact that he had absorbed no less than six center of mass hits from the M9. Makes you question the wisdom of the military abandoning the Model 1911, doesn't it?
The.50 AE is a waste of money. It's useless for self-defense (too much recoil and over-penetration) and if handgun hunting is really your thing there are better and more powerful cartridges on the market.
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Try the 2nd and 14th amendments of the United States Constitution.
Although if I lived in Chicago, I would probably welcome greater surveillance as a deterrent to violent crime.
Might prove cheaper and more effective to end their obnoxious and unconstitutional ban on private handgun ownership.
Just sayin'
I really wouldn't mind that. If I'm not doing anything illegal, then I don't have to worry about being arrested.
Yeah, because nobody innocent has ever been arrested.
Why would someone be AGAINST security cameras being pointed at their property, when other people pay hefty sums to set them up for security?
Maybe because they value their privacy more than the value the "security" of video recording?
What pray-tell, directly disadvantages the average citizen if they were to be watched at all times?
I guess that depends on how good looking your wife is and what sexual positions you use ;)
Chicago has been violating the civil rights of it's residents for years in ways that are far more obnoxious than recording public spaces. What makes you think the good people of the windy city are going to grow a backbone at this point?
It's folly to think that you have to live in a bad area to become a victim of violent crime. My state has granted me the right to carry a concealed firearm. I choose to exercise that right whenever it is legal to do so, hence my interest in different handgun calibers and the merits/lack thereof of each of them.
What's wrong with having 'vast knowledge' about this subject or any other subject in particular?
If a company has more fees to pay, whether taxes or other, it comes out of profits, with only a fraction of it represented in the product's sale price.
Even if I agreed with you, this is still a tax on individuals. Where do you think profits go? They go to shareholders who pay income tax on them.
I've tried revolvers but even on the smaller ones the cylinder is just too wide for my tastes
I'd second that. I bought my snubnose because I had a lot of negative experiences with pocket automatics. I rarely carry the thing though. It's funny but it's more comfortable for me to carry a government-model sized 1911 than a snubnose revolver.
It has a lot of sharp corners that can snag
??? Mine doesn't have any sharp corners. I've got thousands of draws with it and it's never snagged on anything. Which model 1911 do you have?
but for anything outside of range work to me single action guns are a technology whose time has come and gone
I find it easier to only have to learn one trigger pull. To each their own though :)
'd far rather carry a nice double action than worry about carrying cocked and locked or fumbling with a hammer if I need the gun.
Why would you worry about carrying cocked and locked? The original 1911 had two different safety systems -- the sear/thumb safety interface and the half cock notch. The modern designs will usually add a firing pin safety as well. I'd agree with you on messing around with the hammer though. I know a few people that lower the hammers on their chambered 1911 but I personally regard that as a very bad and dangerous move. Bad because it leaves you with a gun you can't shoot in an emergency. Dangerous because it's just begging for a negligent discharge.
the internal extractor is usually picky and has to be precisely tuned for each gun - which is why most 1911-redesigns went to an external extractor
YMMV but I've had worse experiences with the redesigns with external extractors. Most of the issues that I've seen with extractors on 1911s wind up being the fault of the magazine, not the extractor. I ran into it with the first one I bought -- the stock magazine had a nasty habit of jamming on the last round, particularly when feeding hollowpoints. I bought 8 round magazines from Wilson Combat and haven't had any hiccups since.
The trigger moving straight back instead of pivoting on a hinge pin also feels off to me.
The ones that pivot feel strange to me. I guess it's all what you are used to :)
Don't get me wrong the fact that the design has been used for as long as it has is a testament to it's maker, but the design is almost 100 years old now and it's starting to get just a bit long in the tooth.
I'm not a Browning groupie. I love many aspects of the 1911 (the grip angle, the single action operation, the thin profile, etc.) but there are also a lot of things that could stand to be improved with the original design. To pick one, it's a mystery to me why the extended grip safety (to prevent hammer bite and enable a higher grip on the gun) wasn't a feature of the original design. That's the first thing I notice whenever I pick up a mil-spec 1911. The original sights also left a lot to be desired.
If a pistol is your primary weapon, caliber sizes and small differences in performance might be of value.
As a civilian it is your primary weapon. You can't exactly take the AR-15 or 12 gauge with you to the grocery store. It probably qualifies as the primary weapon for most law enforcement officers too. They have access to shotguns and other weapons but the pistol is the one that's always on hand and ready to bring into action when needed.
The point is valid for soldiers though. The Marines don't even issue the M9 any longer to officers under the rank of full bird colonel. They issue the M4 carbine instead.
So is the 11.43x23mm automatic colt pistol ;)
With good JHP ammo, 9 is plenty on an unarmored target.
I'll wager that most of the police who died because their 9mm rounds failed the stop the aggressor were using "good JHP ammo" (as if you'd use anything else for self-defense work). Seriously, how do you explain away the numerous stories of the 9mm failing to stop aggressors and the fact that large segments of the law enforcement community have abandoned it?
Though, I honestly just don't believe the 1911 can be beat on aesthetics... like a Colt 1851 Navy, the Winchester Repeater and the M1 Garand, they're just sort of iconic of America.
Yeah, that's kind of how I wound up buying one. Hard to find a more American handgun than the 1911. It helps that the first time I ever fired one I did really well with it. Couldn't hit the broad side of a barn with the revolvers that I played with that day but the 1911 almost seems to aim itself, at least for me.
Funny that you mentioned the Garand. I'm still in the process of saving up the money to get one from the CMP. Personally I'd rather have an M1 Garand than a AR or AK. More powerful cartridge, longer range, semi-auto operation and no legal hassles to contend with, as my state has it's own version of the now expired Federal assault weapons ban.
Maybe I'm just a sucker for the nostalgia :)
Wearing a heavy coat in the summer just so I can conceal a 1911 is the point when carrying is more hindrance than it's worth
I can conceal my 1911 under an oversized t-shirt (i.e: buy an XL instead of an L) with the tail out. Get yourself an inside the waistband holster. You'd be surprised how easy it is to conceal a large framed pistol. The 1911 has another advantage going for it too -- the single stack magazine gives it a thinner profile than most modern handguns of a similar size.
As such when I carry I carry a little Kel-tec .380. Fire's the same projectile as the 9mm Luger (less power charge behind it though, but still decent energy delivery) but it fits nicely in my front pocket with no wardrobe adjustments.
The problem with pocket guns is that they aren't very fun to shoot and most people won't practice with them enough to become proficient. Too little mass to absorb the recoil. They do have their place though. I have a snubnose .38 for the rare occasion where I don't want to carry the 1911. Load it with +Ps and you've got yourself a weapon with more power than the .380 and one that can't jam.
The truth is 9mm is every bit as capable across a broad range of handgun scenarios that LE are likely to face as any other reasonable semi-auto cartridge (.40, .45, .357Sig)
Then why are there so many more stories of the 9mm failing to stop determined aggressors than there are of other calibers? The .40 and .357SIG are newer calibers so you can explain them away as not having been around long enough to accumulate such stories, but the .45 and .357 magnum have been around for a long time. Both of them have better reputations than the 9mm does.
That's why most of the world's militaries, including the US, and all NATO and UN types, have standardized on 9mm
Except that the US forces who are most likely to need to use their handguns don't use the 9mm. They use the .45. Marine Force Recon, Delta Force and the Navy Seals all use .45s. So does the FBI Hostage Rescue Team and LA SWAT team. If the 9mm is so great then why aren't these pros using it?
Operator skill and unpredictable situational factors will make far more difference than any you can find between the calibers in any case
No argument there. Most of the knowledgeable types that I've talked to would advise you to pick the most powerful caliber that you can shoot accurately and stop worrying about it. A hit with a .22LR is better than a miss with a .50 BMG. I can shoot the .45 as accurately as the 9mm and my state limits me to 10 round magazines anyway so I don't see any compelling reason to carry the 9mm.
It's not an 'appeal to authority'. It's an appeal to professional studies of the issue at hand. The FBI spent millions of dollars investigating the issue of stopping power after the Miami shootout. After all of their research they opted not to select the 9mm as a carry weapon for their personnel. What does that suggest to you?
and with 9mm you get a LOT more practice.
If that's your metric then the .22LR is the best self-defense round.
Where it hits is more important than how big it is
Don't dismiss the size of the hole. The only surefire way to stop a determined aggressor is to destroy the central nervous system or to cause enough blood loss that they can't continue attacking you. A larger wound channel is going to accelerate the rate of blood loss and stop them faster than a smaller one.
Choose the most powerful round that you can shoot accurately. Most people can manage to do so with something more powerful than the 9mm.
It's hard to come across good data for stopping power because every shooting scenario is obviously different. What is known is that there have been a lot more failures of the 9mm to stop an aggressor than there have been of the .45, .40 or .357. Here in NYS the State Troopers abandoned the 9mm in favor of the .45 GAP (Glock's knock off of the .45 ACP) after a Trooper was killed by some scumbag whom he had repeatedly shot but whom wasn't stopped.
Don't get me wrong -- you can find a failure to stop for every caliber on the market. One of the ones that sticks out in my mind involved a South Carolina State Trooper. He landed five center of mass hits on his aggressor with a .357 magnum and was then killed by a .22 derringer of all things. His attacker lived. Just plain rotten luck. No caliber is a sure thing -- but the 9mm stands out as having more failures to stop than most.
Most knowledgeable people will tell you to carry the most powerful caliber that you can shoot accurately and have a decent follow-up time with. The .45 does you no good if it takes you five seconds to reacquire the sights after the first shot. Most shooters are capable of handling something bigger/more powerful than the 9mm though. The .40 S&W seems to be the current favorite among law enforcement agencies.
Easier said than done when the adrenaline is pumping and your fight or flight response kicks in. The instructor who taught the CCW classes that I've taken said that if your regular group size is 2" across on the range it will measure 10" or more when the chips are down and you are fighting for your life.
There's a reason why even the professionals are trained to shoot CoM first.
In most places, the would-be victim would then be up on a manslaughter charge, which I think is not the analogy you were shooting for.
What 'most places' are those? In most American jurisdictions you are well within your rights to resist a mugging attempt with whatever force is reasonably required to terminate the encounter in your favor.
Well yeah, but those are rather hard to wear on your person when you visit the grocery store ;)
Perhaps you should go fuck yourself and the horse you rode in on :) Might be more enjoyable than the plastic bag and pillow that you usually use.
Yeah I had that same thought. The Chinese have as much standing to complain about IP violations as the United States has to lecture on fiscal responsibility.
WTF does that have to do with anything?
Yeah, the Air Marshals use the .357 SIG, as does the Secret Service. The Coast Guard adopted it as well. I believe the FBI is still using the .40 S&W but I could be mistaken.
The 9mm is a joke. It's even worse for the military because they aren't allowed to use expanding ammunition. Buddy of mine who deployed in Iraq tells a story of an insurgent whom wasn't stopped in spite of the fact that he had absorbed no less than six center of mass hits from the M9. Makes you question the wisdom of the military abandoning the Model 1911, doesn't it?
The .50 AE is a waste of money. It's useless for self-defense (too much recoil and over-penetration) and if handgun hunting is really your thing there are better and more powerful cartridges on the market.